Nancy Machaj

---I just got off the phone with my mom, and she again went into great detail about how bad alexx would get as a teen. I said that so far I was LOVING Alexx's teen years...She laughed and said, what Alexx has been a teen for three weeks. AHHH. I stuck up for Alexx and our relationship, I even told her that when I dropped Alexx off with friends, Alexx kissed me goodbye, and she thought that was amazing, while I thought it was just a normal part of our relationship. It's so sad, how my mom thinks that it's going to get "bad" with Alexx. Sad.----


What I think is sad is that parents take no responsibility for how teens act. That if their children have any problems, that the problems might be them or how they treat them.

I read a book called "Reviving Ophelia" when my dd was little. What I got out of it was that, wow, you *could* have a good relationship with your child if you didnt treat them like second class citizens. I made the mistake of trying to talk to my mom about it. Of course, I was one of those bad teens. She says now, what could she do? Her stance is that I was just a hellcat and all she could do was try to corral me the best she could. Tough Love she called it. My mom thinks that it was just her between me and the abyss of total destruction.

She doesnt think that she had anything to do with driving me to the abyss. She doesnt think she had anything to do with me wanting to destruct. Life, for me, was really painful and awful, and yes, I was a "bad teen". I dont want to sit here and blame my parents for my actions. But I really didnt know there were other choices. I didnt know there were other ways to live. I guess I was locked into my vision of how teens were supposed to act, too. And my parents had their ideas of how parents act and how teens act, and we all did what we thought we had to do, I guess. That is really sad.

What is good is that I know there is another way. And so do you. Maybe your mom will allow herself to see it, maybe not.

Nancy
http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-But I really didnt know there were other choices. I didnt know
there were other ways to live. I guess I was locked into my vision of
how teens were supposed to act, too. And my parents had their ideas
of how parents act and how teens act-=-

I think it's because most people have no concept that there could be
life without school.

I have two teen stories of today. One was at 4:30 and one was ten
minutes ago.

The first, I was at Boston Market (a food place) with Holly (16) and
Brett, her boyfriend. Holly's shy about ordering. She fears menus
and choices sometimes. I was going to order for her (it's a walk-up
counter like a cafeteria, like Subway). Brett apologized to me for
making the problem worse by ordering for Holly all the time. It was
sweet, though, and I said it was okay. Holly said to Brett and me
both (and I wrote it down on my debit-card envelope):

"It's a very complicated issue. Why do you always have to simplify
things?"
It was a self-deprecating joke, and a good one.

Marty (19) was in here a minute ago. I told him I don't feel good
and I'm about to go to bed. He said he's about to walk up to the
park to play basketball. It's not the nearest park to us btw, or the
second nearest. It's half a mile or more. Two cars are sitting in
the driveway, but he chooses to walk. I asked if he would do me a
big favor before he left. I told him where there was a box of
kleenex three rooms away, and asked him if he would please bring it
to me.

He looked at me and said in a kind of indignant tone that confused me
at first. I thought he wasn't going to do it. He said "Mom, that is
not a big favor. That is MINISCULE." and he went and got the kleenex.

Keith used to worry, years ago, that I was letting them "talk back,"
and argue with me. I told him if they could win arguments with me
they could win arguments with anyone, so it was good practice for
both of us. He quit worrying about it a long time ago.

Today's examples show what can happen if conversations are
straightforward and kind and honest. It takes a few years to get to
that good point, but it's possible that teens who have very few
restrictions of any kind past expectations that they'll let us know
where they are and who they're with will want to be home, happily
telling us what they did when they were gone.

Yesterday I had breakfast with a friend who also has three kids. One
was homeschooled after 1st or 2nd grade. The next two started off
unschooled and ended up in school because of the parents'
separation. We were talking about romances and dating and honesty.
Her 16 year old, she said, has probably had sex and has a
girlfriend. She said her daughter (who is 18) wouldn't tell her if
she had a boyfriend, because she would be too afraid her dad would
find out.

It's not healthy that they can't talk about those things.

Sandra





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

--- In [email protected], Nancy Machaj <nmachaj@...> wrote:
>
I dont want to sit there and blame my parents for my actions. But I really didnt know there
were other choices.>

I had a difficult life as a teen as well, and I made choices that were the best I could do in
the circumstances. The problem was that my decisions were all reactionary. They weren't
real decisions based on information and weighing the options--they were me doing what I
could to try to preserve my sense of integrity. I had adults around me doing some pretty
cr**py things, yet holding me responsible for how I responded to it. Not fair! I don't
blame my parents for any choices I made once I was an adult--out on my own and
responsible for myself, and I don't actually spend much time thinking about my teen years
anymore, but I do have people in my life that won't "forgive" me for a few things that
happened as a teen, and I actually feel very divorced from the whole time.

I, who feel very responsible for every decision I make or don't make and talk with my kids
frequently about those issues, don't feel an ounce of responsibility for things I did or said
back then--because none of it was me. It all came from feelings over divorce, affairs,
abandonment, alcoholism & drug use, etc. They did those things--not me. And I didn't
have any adults in my life at that time that had any attention on what I might want to be
or do. No one was supporting me in my journey to adulthood--I had to figure that stuff
out all on my own. I, too, feel so grateful to be able to give my kids so much more
support than I had. I LOVE the conversations I'm having with my almost-teen. Through
my connection with ds I am able to see the incredibly grounding value of having a multi-
age perspective. He'll still be going through his own journey, but not alone.

Maybe this contributes to why so many teens are angry--they've essentially been
abandoned. Maybe not through any extraordinary circumstances, but through the
degradation of trust that happens with each criticism, each time-out or "loss of
priviledge," each attempt to control.

Joanna

Sandra Dodd

-=-Maybe this contributes to why so many teens are angry--they've
essentially been
abandoned. Maybe not through any extraordinary circumstances, but
through the
degradation of trust that happens with each criticism, each time-out
or "loss of
priviledge," each attempt to control.-=-

That's beautiful. It's not happy or cheery, but it's profound.

Yesterday, talking to my friend, we talked about a year-long problem
with her middle child, whose dad forces him to go to Albuquerque
Academy. He hates it and wanted to keep homeschooling. The dad
doesn't care what he wants.

The dad doesn't care what he wants. That is not my opinion. It's
what the dad has told him, in words to his face, and certainly in deeds.

The boy was hospitalized for bulemia. He weighed about 100 pounds--a
sixteen year old boy. When he was 11, 12, he was a pudgy but strong
and quick kid I figured would be a football player. It was like slow-
motion suicide.

I asked the mom whether the counsellors or anyone involved said it
was because he didn't want to be at the Academy. She said no, none
of them.

The only way he can win is for his dad to lose. He only controls his
own life in those moments he chooses to do other than what his dad
says he has to do.

How is that rebellion, really? He's trying with his entire human
being to BE a human being.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> The only way he can win is for his dad to lose. He only controls his
> own life in those moments he chooses to do other than what his dad
> says he has to do.
>
> How is that rebellion, really? He's trying with his entire human
> being to BE a human being.
>


I had a long talk with my daughter's best friend about 2 weeks ago. Her
father is extremely controlling, not in the traditional parenting type
way, but the abusive and manipulative type way. I asked her why she
didn't just do something that she wanted to do and she said she didn't
have a choice. I told her that she did have a choice to do whatever she
wanted to and that she would have to deal with her dad if she made other
choices than what he told her she had to do. I told her that one day,
wether it be tomorrow, or next year or the year after, she will have to
defy her father to do what she wants. He's made it an inevitable thing
and his reasoning for being so controling is to keep her from doing all
those things and to make her respect him. What he is ensuring is that
she will have to go against him to get what she wants in life. I don't
think that she'd ever thought of it that way, that her father has set
her up to defy him, but that she has the choice to do so or not sooner
or later.

There is no way around it. I think that is really sad. The only way
she can win is if her dad loses, but is that really winning? They both
lose, she will lose her dad as a parent, not because he won't be there,
but if she defies him, it will drive a bigger wedge between them than
there already is.

It is really hard to sit back and watch that all play out. I know
Chamille feels that pain too. Our house used to be a safe place for
those kids, but the dad won't let them be here anymore. It's an
interesting guiding compass of how to NOT be. It provides a lot of
conversations about how and why people behave the way they do and better
ways they could behave. I ran across a letter that Chamille had written
to the dad about 6 months ago. She didn't send it because I asked her
not to. I wish now that she would've sent it. It was very to the point
and she was so succinct in how she wrote about his controlling behavior
and how it affected her and his daughter. At the time I still had hope
that he would snap out of it and things would get better, and that such
a letter would gaurantee it not happening.

Ultimately kids will do what they want to do, inspite of their parents.
I like that my kids will get to do what they want to do because of me,
not inspite of me. I love that I can do that, that I can give that to
them as a precious gift.

Mamachaos

"Ultimately kids will do what they want to do, inspite of their parents.
I like that my kids will get to do what they want to do because of me,
not inspite of me. I love that I can do that, that I can give that to
them as a precious gift."

How about when your kids are very angry and being very disrespectful of all family members? How about when they are not finding any balance for themselves--like not doing the chores for their animals, and playing a video game ALL DAY? I have seen the anger, disrespect (talking very rudely, screaming, slamming doors etc) escalate daily. I really think a lot of it is DUE to all that screen time. But I do not know that is the only reason...of course there is never only 1 reason for anything, but I do feel it is playing a great part in this excessive anger and rudeness. What can you do about this type of thing while still allowing your teen the control they want, but at the same time, keeping your home a place of respect and peace and keeping younger children from being emotionally upset ( and abused!) by the whole thing??

Looking for ideas. Right now, counseling looks like a good one, as I feel he does not have the normal filter mechanisms most of us use to control anger and reactions to things. Yes, I know hormones are involved--I have tried very calmly discussing my childhood and how my father was very angry and how it affected all those around him, and how really, he just needed some tools to help him reroute his anger when his brain went on overload. I have said that i think sometimes we have to help our brains channel things....like count to 2, snap 2x, think of a strange word....anything that breaks the volcanic eruption and allows the steam to escape without killing everything down-mountain. I support him and have said that I will go with him to talk to someone, or not. That I really was very angry when I was his age too, as that was what I was taught thru my father's modeling of his behavior, and that it took many years...a decade+ to figure out new ways to deal with things. And I sure would've liked a shorter route to where I am today!

Any suggestions are welcome!
Thank you!
Kelley



http://sandandstardust.blogspot.com/

"Childhood is a journey, not a race."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

***I have seen the anger, disrespect (talking very rudely, screaming, slamming doors etc) escalate daily. I really think a lot of it is DUE to all that screen time. But I do not know that is the only reason...of course there is never only 1 reason for anything, but I do feel it is playing a great part in this excessive anger and rudeness.***

I really doubt that it is the screen time. If it's the only thing to do and he had to play what he's playing, I could see it then. But the gaming causing the things you're saying... I just haven't seen it. My kids play a lot of video games and computer games and they aren't rude or screaming or slamming doors. I'm not saying that don't get angry over things. But video games aren't making kids rude or disrespectful.

***How about when they are not finding any balance for themselves--like not doing the chores for their animals, and playing a video game ALL DAY?***
If he isn't feeling like taking care of his animal right now is there a way to help him for a while. Maybe he's changed his mind about having it? Maybe he'd rather do something else right now. Feeling trapped in something, not in control, would make me angry.

***Looking for ideas. Right now, counseling looks like a good one, as I feel he does not have the normal filter mechanisms most of us use to control anger and reactions to things.***

I don't know about counseling. I don't know of many counselors who are going to respect what your son wants.

Can you just hang with him and do fun stuff? Spend time with him, play with him.. offer other things too besides the video games, but be OK with it if he wants to do that. My 15 yr old son still likes it when I play with him. And if I can't play what he's playing just being beside him as he's doing his gaming or what ever he's doing is great bonding time. :)






Kelli~


http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/

"There are no ordinary moments." Dan Millman, Peaceful Warrior



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/9/2008 10:07:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mamachaos@... writes:

>>>How about when your kids are very angry and being very disrespectful of
all family members? How about when they are not finding any balance for
themselves--How about when your kids are very angry and being very disrespectful of
all family members? How about when they are not finding any balance for
themselves--<WBR>like not doing the chores for their animals, and playing a video
game ALL DAY? I have seen the anger, disrespect (talking very rudely,
screaming, slamming doors etc) escalate daily. I really think a lot of it is DUE to
all that screen time. But I do not know that is the only reason...of course
there is never only 1 reason for anything, but I do feel it is playing a
great part in this excessive anger and rudeness. What can you do about this type
of thing while still allowing your teen the control they want, b
Looking for ideas. <<<



******I have a child who *can* be volatile, and yes some people could think
it's from screen time (or whatever they feel like blaming at the moment ) but
I think it's his makeup, his personality and probably hormones too. He's of
the *perfectionist* type .

When he gets frustrated or angry or annoyed, he *can* be loud and sometimes
disrespectful. And the other child is almost always calm and sweet even in
anger. So there's that very obvious comparison that people do make, which
doesn't help.

I try to help him through it. We talk about different ways to channel his
anger and frustration. And look for times that might make him easily
frustrated, like making sure his body has nutrition.

But in the heat of the moment , one is not always rational , and I look at
it as *you feel what you feel* and some kids are more volatile than others,
yet they still need to express themselves. They need to let their feelings out
and not keep them bottled up inside. And of all places their home needs to
one of safety and a place where they can be heard, whether it's good or bad.

We had an incident the other day. he was playing video games and on the
computer and taking his time getting ready for baseball ( which he LOVES!) and
his father was getting very impatient and annoyed.

He was definitely going to be late and then the coach would flip out and my
son would feel awful ,etc.
So there were words and loudness and stomping off and then a quivering, yet
angry face that stormed off to the car.

In the meantime I reiterated my belief on the home being a safe haven and a
place to be able to verbalize anything , to the rest of the family who was
there. And answered the question of "How is he going to be on time when he's out
in the world and has a job? " with "he's 11 1/2 ! If he lives in a loving,
respectful and safe home making his own choices he WILL be a responsible
person, etc.

I asked him to come back into the house for a minute. You could tell he
wanted to come but didn't. He came up the walk very slowly. I gave him a hug
and told him to have a good practice. He hugged tight and went off.

Later that night he came to me and said he was sorry he flipped out in the
afternoon. We talked a long time about feelings and how we can help ourselves
deal with things.

I think a child needs to know they are loved no matter
what...unconditionally. People can say but my child knows I love him. But does he really????? How
do you know that??? You have to *show* him


~marcia
HarmonyWoodsFarm
_http://www.xanga.com/livefreeinharmony_
(http://www.xanga.com/livefreeinharmony)



**************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-How about when your kids are very angry and being very
disrespectful of all family members? How about when they are not
finding any balance for themselves--like not doing the chores for
their animals, and playing a video game ALL DAY? -=-

If kids are angry, they're probably needy. Find out what they need
and provide it, and they'll be happier.

-=- How about when they are not finding any balance for themselves-=-

I would say "help them find balance" but it seems you would do that
by requiring chores and restricting videos, so I will say that if you
do more for them and help them do what they want to do, you will see
(not tomorrow, but at some point) that they will want to do more for
you and help you do what you want to do.

If you restrict and require, you will see (today, tomorrow, and for
years) them avoiding what you want done and revelling in doing what
you don't approve of.

-=-I have seen the anger, disrespect (talking very rudely, screaming,
slamming doors etc) escalate daily. I really think a lot of it is DUE
to all that screen time.-=-

It's easy to designate a scapegoat, a boogey-man, and say "THAT is
what's causing the problems!" Lots of families straight-out blame
Satan, overtly. Millions of people would pat you on the back if you
chose to blame Satan or TV. Here:
http://sandradodd.com/t/anti
But you've come to ask people who didn't write any of that, but who
wrote all of this:
http://sandradodd.com/tv

-=-What can you do about this type of thing while still allowing your
teen the control they want, but at the same time, keeping your home a
place of respect and peace and keeping younger children from being
emotionally upset ( and abused!) by the whole thing??-=-

#1: Stop thinking of "control." Start thinking of choices.
http://sandradodd.com/control

-=-Yes, I know hormones are involved--I have tried very calmly
discussing my childhood and how my father was very angry and how it
affected all those around him, and how really, he just needed some
tools to help him reroute his anger when his brain went on overload.
I have said that i think sometimes we have to help our brains channel
things....like count to 2, snap 2x, think of a strange
word....anything that breaks the volcanic eruption and allows the
steam to escape without killing everything down-mountain.-=-

Is he the oldest? Maybe he needs lots of pampering. Do you deliver
food to him where he's playing his games? Do you keep the other kids
away so he can have some quiet privacy, or do you expect him to
negotiate and arrange for his own privacy? Are the other kids
bugging him?

-=-t I really was very angry when I was his age too, as that was what
I was taught thru my father's modeling of his behavior, and that it
took many years...a decade+ to figure out new ways to deal with
things. -=-

"Taught through my father's modeling" is too indirect for why you
might have been angry. If it was nature, you might have inherited
(genetically) a short fuse--quick adrenaline, adrenaline that doesn't
dissipate easily. It it was nurture, how did an angry father treat
you? What did you need (emotionally, physically) that you didn't
have? How were you needy?

http://sandradodd.com/breathing

That page is too unfinished to really put out there. I should work
on it. But counting to two, snap2x, that's *nothing.* It's too little.

Please listen to the business about counting to ten in the audio file
here:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully

And for anyone... I'm not getting the second sound file to show
right on my computer, but on someone else's it was fine. If you have
time to give me feedback, please do. There's a link to get to them,
though, and you can upload them in your choice of formats from the
page where they dwell.

Sandra





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

" How about when your kids are very angry and being very disrespectful
of all family members?"

Let it go, you count to ten, and remain calm. Ask others to stay away
from that person and give them space, let that person know that you all
are going to get out of his space so that he can get himself in a better
mood. Absolutely don't antagonize the situation. Don't lecture, don't
say anything negative or shameful.

"How about when they are not finding any balance for themselves--like
not doing the chores for their animals, and playing a video game ALL
DAY? I have seen the anger, disrespect (talking very rudely, screaming,
slamming doors etc) escalate daily. I really think a lot of it is DUE to
all that screen time. But I do not know that is the only reason...of
course there is never only 1 reason for anything, but I do feel it is
playing a great part in this excessive anger and rudeness. What can you
do about this type of thing while still allowing your teen the control
they want, but at the same time, keeping your home a place of respect
and peace and keeping younger children from being emotionally upset (
and abused!) by the whole thing??"

If unschooling and freedom are new to the family, let it go. It will
take a while for people to find their comfort in the newness. If a
child is used to control, it is sort of a stability of sorts to rely on.
If you take it away a kid might feel a little like they are floundering
about not knowing what to do or how to behave. Screen time is NOT the
issue, it could very well be the solution. Don't interupt it, don't
belittle it, let it happen. Offer things, and accept "no" as an answer.
Anger and rudeness are reactionary behaviors, don't give any reason to
react in that way. Do it enough times that a child can calm down and
stop reacting. Keep doing it.

No one has ultimate control. Perhaps instead of seeing it as taking the
parental control and handing it over to the child, see it as learning
how to navigate together, no one is in control or everyone is. Really
the ONLY thing a person can control is their own behavior, pretty much
everything else is circumstantial.

As to keeping younger children safe, refer to above about directing them
elsewhere.


"Right now, counseling looks like a good one, as I feel he does not have
the normal filter mechanisms most of us use to control anger and
reactions to things."

Or maybe he is reacting perfectly normal to a control based environment
and he feels very intensly about being controlled. I wouldn't recommend
counseling. If you work for a year at happy relationship building
without control and he is still having problems, then maybe counseling
could help. Counseling could just be another cause of resentment over
control though. How are you going to get him there if he doesn't want
to go? Really! A counselor isn't necessarily going to help him with
anger and stuff either. Counselors are mostly there to listen and
interpret and offer advice here and there. Wouldn't it be cool if you
as the parent, could do that and be that for your kids?

I've often looked at my role as a mom as one of a counselor and advisor.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Screen time is NOT the
issue, it could very well be the solution. Don't interupt it, don't
belittle it, let it happen. -=-

Oh my gosh!!

Had you been speechifying to us all in real life, I would've stood up
and applauded. I did sit up straight in my chair. <g>

I'm quoting this and some of the rest of that post too.

-=-Really the ONLY thing a person can control is their own behavior,
pretty much everything else is circumstantial.-=-

And that self control does take some thought, knowledge and
practice. And it takes humility and desire. Too many parents don't
have it but punish or shame their kids for not having it.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Wilkinson

My 17 year old (unschooler 8 years/graduating from high school this
year) wants a tattoo. I have never stopped living the unschooling
lifestyle with her. School and everything else she has done has been
her choice and though she no longer unschools, I never fell into the
school mentality and always looked at it as her option, not something
she had to do or do well at. I just support her. I have LOVED the teen
years with her. She is now saying she wants a tatoo. Bob (dh) is
happy to take her. She wants a small one on her back that says in
French, "I love my brother" in memory of Sam.
As beautiful as that is, I really don't like the idea of a young person
getting a tattoo. Actually, it's just MY young person, that is
bothering me. What if she regrets it later? I am technically still
responsible for this. Has anyone dealt with this? I have asked her to
wait til she is 18,(in Sept) but she thinks that is arbitrary and
want's it before summer.
I need words of wisdom. She wouldn't do it, if she knew it would
really upset me, but she keeps mentioning it and I can't put her off
much longer. She wants my blessing. I really can't see myself drawing
a line in the sand over this, but I really feel uncomfortable with it
too. Is there anyway to be at peace about it?
Bob is going on his birthday, April 15, to get another one. He has a
portrait of Sam on his arm, and has added his dates and then added Sams
signature from a letter he wrote to Bob, then he put angels on his
shoulder (we lost another son Jay when I was 8 mos preg with him) so
the angels represent both boys. Now he's getting 2 wolves (Sam loved
wolves). I have heard tattoos can be addicting and it seems to be
playing out with him. She want's to go with him to get hers.
I really wish I could change her mind.
Any tattooed teens out there?
Or tattooed adults that regret it? Or don't.
Help!

Joanna W.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I don't have a tattoo or kids with tattoos but as a sister who also lost a brother I find it beautiful that she wants to have it done .
It really made me tear up.
I love my brother.
Maybe I should get one too.
I don't think she will ever regret a small tattoo that says she loves the brother she lost.
and even if one day she decides she CAN get it removed by laser.
Removing tattoos are much easier and look much better than just a few years ago.




Alex Polikowsky

www.polykow.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

How sweet that she wants to get a tattoo in memory of Sam! I'm sure it
will be a tasteful one, too.

Tattoos seem to be very popular here in New Mexico -- everything from
gang logos to a lover's name on your neck (ick) or kids'
names/birthdates in very visible and elaborate detail. Many are over
the top, and the lower back seems very popular with girls, too.

I have friends with one or more tattoos, and my oldest son got his
first tattoo at 17, with my permission and blessing (and I didn't even
know then what he'd get). His first tat is a HUGE dragon that occupies
virtually all of his lower right leg. He's added a second one now, a
New Mexico zia (sun) sign, and is contemplating several more (he's 23,
btw).

Personally, my feeling was I could 'let' him get one at a quality,
clean tattoo parlor with my oversight, and know it was safe and he'd
have a good experience, or I could draw my line in the sand and risk
that he'd make an unsafe choice in getting a tattoo. And if he had to
hide it from me, what kind of aftercare would he be able to get?

I had to remember, too, that my hallmark reason for unschooling my kids
is a fervent dedication to their personal autonomy and sovereignty over
their own bodies and lives. So, I said yes, told him he could spend his
travel money on it (he used my sister's tattoo artist during a visit to
her home in Texas) and told my sister he had total freedom in what he
wanted. Hence, the very big, elaborate -- and beautiful -- gold dragon
on his leg. He even negotiated a discount by allowing the tattoo
artist to use the finished product in some ad layouts for his business!

I'll admit, too, that tattoos fascinate me. I've thought about getting
one over the years, but I'm not crazy about pain, and I have so many
allergies I'm afraid I'd end up with a huge reaction under my skin!

I'd say let her get the tattoo.

Sylvia

Sandra Dodd

-=-He's added a second one now, a
New Mexico zia (sun) sign...-=-

Holly and I were discussing lately that we haven't seen any gold and
red Zias on people, and it seems we would. They're on trucks and
gates and t-shirts and mugs. Good to hear of one.

She had seen one, but it was a different color--khaki or dark green
or something.

Keith doesn't like tattoos at all. I have no urge. Holly talks
about getting one. I've asked her to wait until she's 18. Keith
doesn't even like ear piercings. It won't hurt her to do him that
courtesy. He didn't say no about ear piercings. He said he would
rather she didn't, but they're her ears. He probably wouldn't say no
about a tattoo, because she probably wouldn't ask him. She asked me
what I thought, and understood my concern and advice. If she decides
not to wait, we'll still love her. <g>



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Janet Renk

My oldest got a tattoo at 17. She knew exactly what she wanted, drew it herself. My next is going to get one this summer; she'll be a couple months shy of 17. In our state you can get a tattoo at 16 with parental consent.

I have no concerns with either of my daughters getting tattoos. They researched it thoroughly, are fully aware that they are considered permanent, and it was important to them. It wasn't a spur of the moment decision - although those aren't always wrong either. I think your daughter wanting to honor her brother in this way is beautiful; considering that it is for her brother, it's not likely that she would ever regret that. Also, I think it's much easier to have a tattoo removed than it used to be. I truly don't think 18 and almost 18 makes any difference. It's only a matter of a few months.

Do you know what your main concern is with the tattoo. Is that you are afraid she'll change her mind later on about having it? Afraid that it'll lead to more tattoos? Or is it that you don't care for tattoos? I know how that can feel. My 16 yr old dd has numerous piercings. I don't like piercings. It's been hard for me to support her in this, and I've bit my tongue more times than she knows. She has shown me that it isn't a passing fancy, and she is extremely knowledgeable about piercings. In fact, she hopes to have a piercing/tattoo shop someday. I've have had to put my personal dislikes aside in order to support her, but it has been worth all the effort on my part. She told me she could care for them, shared her knowledge with me and they were important to her, and I trusted her judgment.

Janet



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Do you know what your main concern is with the tattoo. Is that you
are afraid she'll change her mind later on about having it? Afraid
that it'll lead to more tattoos? Or is it that you don't care for
tattoos?-=-

I'm not the original poster, but my worry is that it would limit
where they could work or who might want to marry them. I don't want
to be held responsible for making a smaller world, for having advised
them badly or let them do something they didn't fully understand.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joylyn

We have a teacher in my school. She has multiple piercings and tattoos. The main ear ones are like a spiral, and the holes are quite big. I think the spiral is to slowly make the holes bigger and bigger. She also has three or maybe more nose piercings, and they are not little tiny studs, but a hoop, a pointy thing, and something else... she has one facial tattoo, and then both arms look like arm warmers, the tattoos are so colorful and cover from her wrists to under her clothing. She also has tattoos on her legs and I'm sure elsewhere. She is quite openly out, although I'm not sure if the kids know. She has very short spiked hair.

I think it is changing and body art is becoming more and more acceptable. Alexx wants a lip piercing. I'm thinking of letting her, as soon as the divorce is final. Although I don't like how that was stated.

Earlier this year, and young girl started in my class, new student. On day two, she has this LONG (like 8 inches) spike coming out of her lip. It was not something that would be safe for a young person to wear in a school full of young people. After talking to her, I discovered that she and her older sister hand pierced the lip the night before and she had to wear this for however long (months)... I was appalled that this 6th grade 11 year old had pierced her own lip.

So I realize that Alexx could do this on her own. Not that she would, I don't see her doing that. I see us talking about, waiting for the divorce to be final so I have custody completely, and them doing research to see how and where and how to make it happen in the safest possible way, and then us going together and getting it done.

I think she is thinking of a tattoo too. I'm not opposed. As long as she breastfeeds and is not a republican, I'm cool with her choices.... (and I'm only sorta kidding.)

Joylyn
---- Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-Do you know what your main concern is with the tattoo. Is that you
> are afraid she'll change her mind later on about having it? Afraid
> that it'll lead to more tattoos? Or is it that you don't care for
> tattoos?-=-
>
> I'm not the original poster, but my worry is that it would limit
> where they could work or who might want to marry them. I don't want
> to be held responsible for making a smaller world, for having advised
> them badly or let them do something they didn't fully understand.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sylvia Toyama

Holly and I were discussing lately that we haven't seen any gold and red Zias on people, and it seems we would. They're on trucks and gates and t-shirts and mugs. Good to hear of one.

****
Really? My brother has one too -- his is on his right bicep, my son's is on the inside of his right calf, just above his ankle bone. He jokes that he'll cover his right leg in tatts first, then his left.

What did impress me in Will's decision about getting a tattoo was the thought he gave to where on his body the tattoos should be. He wanted them to be easily covered, so that if he someday worked a job where he might dress well but roll up his sleeves he wouldn't be embarrassed; the stomach was too painful, neck too visible (but very popular here for some odd reason). Ultimately, he figured that if he had a job where shorts were allowed, they'd likely be okay with tattoos. From what I've seen, it's rare he wears shorts, even away from work, so I'm not sure how often anyone sees his tattoos.

Sylvia


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

This was kinda what I was thinking about the OP's dd's idea to put in on her
back. If she is at a job where they want a bare back, chances are the tattoo
would only be an enhancement.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

<<<< What did impress me in Will's decision about getting a tattoo was the
thought he gave to where on his body the tattoos should be. He wanted them
to be easily covered, so that if he someday worked a job where he might
dress well but roll up his sleeves he wouldn't be embarrassed; the stomach
was too painful, neck too visible (but very popular here for some odd
reason). Ultimately, he figured that if he had a job where shorts were
allowed, they'd likely be okay with tattoos. >>>>

Meghan Anderson-Coates

******
Or tattooed adults that regret it? Or don't.
Help!

Joanna W.

*******

I have 2 tattoos that I love. I have no regrets because they both mean something to me and they take me back to the time when I got them. I think her reason for wanting the tattoo is beautiful and the likely-hood of her regretting the tattoo at a later date is very remote (due to the reason).
Here are some questions you could think about that might help you be more peaceful with it and/or clarify why it's important to you for her to wait. What is it about getting the tattoo that bothers you (is it just the regret factor or maybe also the addiction factor, and have you discussed that with her)? What's the huge difference between now and September in the timeline of life? Is the potential struggle between you over this tattoo worth damaging your relationship (if that's a possibility)? Do Bob's tattoos bother you? And if not, why do you feel differently about your dd having a tattoo? If they do bother you, have you talked to her about why they bother you?




Meghan

I can create what I can imagine. ~ Charlene Kingston

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~<<<< What did impress me in Will's decision about getting a tattoo
was the thought he gave to where on his body the tattoos should be. He
wanted them to be easily covered, so that if he someday worked a job
where he might dress well but roll up his sleeves he wouldn't be
embarrassed; the stomach was too painful, neck too visible (but very
popular here for some odd reason). Ultimately, he figured that if he
had a job where shorts were allowed, they'd likely be okay with
tattoos. >>>>~~

I think that's a good idea for the first few tattoos for anyone.

But, they could end up like me,with a job where tattoos and piercings
are a-ok.:) Out of seven girls at my counter, two don't have tattoos.
Most of us have tattoos that show.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-This was kinda what I was thinking about the OP's dd's idea to put
in on her
back. If she is at a job where they want a bare back, chances are the
tattoo
would only be an enhancement.-=-



Good point.

And there are places in Albuquerque that probably ONLY hire people
with piercings and tattoos, but that doesn't mean they'll be around
thirty years with great retirement plans or anything. <g>



Sandra

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Barbara Perez

I'd told my daughter I'd want her to wait until she was 13 to get her ears
pierced. Then one day she went and did it anyway (she was 11). I'm not sure
what she thought my reaction would be, but I tried hard not to have a
reaction except I'm sure my disappointment showed. I even helped her clean
the piercings when she asked for help and told her the little studs she
picked looked pretty on her, which they did, but I didn't make a big deal of
it, because I was so confused that she would go out of her way to disregard
my wishes like that, I really did not know how to react. I'm still confused
about it. What would you ahve done?


On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 6:43 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-He's added a second one now, a
> New Mexico zia (sun) sign...-=-
>
> Holly and I were discussing lately that we haven't seen any gold and
> red Zias on people, and it seems we would. They're on trucks and
> gates and t-shirts and mugs. Good to hear of one.
>
> She had seen one, but it was a different color--khaki or dark green
> or something.
>
> Keith doesn't like tattoos at all. I have no urge. Holly talks
> about getting one. I've asked her to wait until she's 18. Keith
> doesn't even like ear piercings. It won't hurt her to do him that
> courtesy. He didn't say no about ear piercings. He said he would
> rather she didn't, but they're her ears. He probably wouldn't say no
> about a tattoo, because she probably wouldn't ask him. She asked me
> what I thought, and understood my concern and advice. If she decides
> not to wait, we'll still love her. <g>
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I really did not know how to react. I'm still confused
about it. What would you ahve done?-=-



Barbara, this can't be answered well.

You still haven't told us about your children or about the state of
unschooling in your home.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lara Miller

Remember back in the early 80s when multiple earrings came into
fashion? Well I was 12 and I HAD to have 2nd holes in each of my
ears or I was going to just DIE. My mom thought that this was
ridiculous and refused to let me do it. Many, many arguments came
of this and finally the reason she had was because that as I became
an adult and this fashion passed, then I would be an adult with
useless extra holes in my head and regret to go with it. Well, I
thought on this and in my very clever 12-year old mind stated that
"well, so will 20 million other girls!" I guess mom couldn't argue
this one or either she gave up, but I got the extra holes in my
head. But I do like them and still wear earrings in them and just
about every person I know anywhere near my age also had the extra
holes.

When I was 19, I got a tattoo on spring break. Probably not the best
set of decision making skills going on at the time. But I do still
like it and don't regret it at all. I have even considered getting
another one as an (mature) adult. Tattoos are very fashionable now.
That is why I mentioned the earrings above. Lots and lots of people
have tattoos now, even multiple tattoos. It doesn't carry the stigma
that it once did and that will prove even more true in the future as
these "crazy tattooed young people" become the tattooed adults of our
society.

It seems as though your daughter has really thought this through and
it isn't as if she is putting "I love (insert current young love)" on
herself. Will her being 18 make her body more her own that it
currently is at 17? If she is just counting down the days until she
is 18 to get it and you are both struggling with this every day until
then, then why all the waiting?

Also, my younger brother lost a dear friend when they were about 18
and he and all his friends had a beautiful tribal band tattoo done on
each of their arms with the date. I know that not a day has gone by
that he has regretted it. Oh, and last year I added another hole to
the top of my ear and one to my nose! Don't regret those either.
Someday, me and all the old ladies at the nursing home can compare
all our holes and tats.

Blessings,

Lara Miller
Currently near Boulder, CO!
http://www.mytripjournal.com/millerfamily




On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:09 PM, Joanna Wilkinson wrote:

> My 17 year old (unschooler 8 years/graduating from high school this
> year) wants a tattoo. I have never stopped living the unschooling
> lifestyle with her. School and everything else she has done has been
> her choice and though she no longer unschools, I never fell into the
> school mentality and always looked at it as her option, not something
> she had to do or do well at. I just support her. I have LOVED the teen
> years with her. She is now saying she wants a tatoo. Bob (dh) is
> happy to take her. She wants a small one on her back that says in
> French, "I love my brother" in memory of Sam.
> As beautiful as that is, I really don't like the idea of a young
> person
> getting a tattoo. Actually, it's just MY young person, that is
> bothering me. What if she regrets it later? I am technically still
> responsible for this. Has anyone dealt with this? I have asked her to
> wait til she is 18,(in Sept) but she thinks that is arbitrary and
> want's it before summer.
> I need words of wisdom. She wouldn't do it, if she knew it would
> really upset me, but she keeps mentioning it and I can't put her off
> much longer. She wants my blessing. I really can't see myself drawing
> a line in the sand over this, but I really feel uncomfortable with it
> too. Is there anyway to be at peace about it?
> Bob is going on his birthday, April 15, to get another one. He has a
> portrait of Sam on his arm, and has added his dates and then added
> Sams
> signature from a letter he wrote to Bob, then he put angels on his
> shoulder (we lost another son Jay when I was 8 mos preg with him) so
> the angels represent both boys. Now he's getting 2 wolves (Sam loved
> wolves). I have heard tattoos can be addicting and it seems to be
> playing out with him. She want's to go with him to get hers.
> I really wish I could change her mind.
> Any tattooed teens out there?
> Or tattooed adults that regret it? Or don't.
> Help!
>
> Joanna W.
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-It seems as though your daughter has really thought this through and
it isn't as if she is putting "I love (insert current young love)" on
herself. -=-

This is very true.

-=-Will her being 18 make her body more her own that it currently is
at 17? -=-

The answer to this is very truly "Yes."



Unschooling doesn't take us off the planet. It doesn't even
necessarily take us out of the house!!!

The laws still apply to unschoolers.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lara Miller

But the the OP mentioned that the law was 16 with parental consent in
her state, so that puts the struggle back in the house and not the
legal system.

I think often the parent's issues with "fashion" type problems is
that the seem so different for us that what we are used to. We know
how we look at people that sport such fashions, but we aren't in the
peer to peer group. Bell bottoms, hippy hair, fishnet stockings,
platform shoes, baggy jeans, guy-liner, big hair. Oh, the big hair.
My mom didn't have big hair and simply couldn't stand my own bid
hair. But everyone I knew either had it or tried to have it.

Several years ago when it was fashionable to have pants or shorts
with words across the butt like "princess" and such, my husband had a
fit and swore that his daughter would never, never wear such stuff!
She was 2. I assured him that no, she never would wear such stuff
because that by the time she was at the age when she would want to
wear such stuff, it would be out of fashion and there would be
something else she wanted to wear that would drive him crazy!

He also has issues with our boys long hair. He thinks people will
look at them like they are loosers or worse...girls. But my
experience with them is that almost everyone they meet thinks their
hair is really, really cool.

It is true that tattoos are much more permanent than words on the
shorts or long hair, but in a society where it seems that most of the
young people are getting tattoos on their body, it can't possibly
carry the same stigma into the future of their work or marriages.

Blessings,

Lara Miller
Currently near Boulder, CO!
http://www.mytripjournal.com/millerfamily
>
> -=-Will her being 18 make her body more her own that it currently is
> at 17? -=-
>
> The answer to this is very truly "Yes."
>
> Unschooling doesn't take us off the planet. It doesn't even
> necessarily take us out of the house!!!
>
> The laws still apply to unschoolers.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-But the the OP mentioned that the law was 16 with parental consent in
her state, so that puts the struggle back in the house and not the
legal system.-=-

Parental consent shouldn't mean that the parents HAVE to consent,
though. If the mom is uncomfortable for ANY reason, she doesn't
consent.

When unschoolers decide to give a lot of surprising choices and
leeway to their children, we're not giving them what's theirs
originally, we're giving them what is OURS, morally, legally,
ethically. We're letting them make choices that our society
believes are the parents' to make.

If I let my children drive all around Albuquerque without telling me
where they'll be, that doesn't mean it would be just as okay for me
to find out they were in California.

If I let my children choose what they'll wear, that doesn't mean I
would be obligated to remain calm and accepting if they went out naked.

Taking things to an extreme is useful in terms of seeing what the
principle is. I don't say "I don't care what you wear." I say "Do
you need help deciding what's appropriate?" And they don't,
usually. And sometimes I ask them what would be best for me to wear
here or there, and based on principles of what's likely to be the
tone and formality level or practical needs of the event at hand,
they'll help me decide. Different shoes for a wedding or for hiking
over to the rock house. Remind out of state guests that it's about
30 degrees colder on the top of the mountain than it is at the base;
more if it's windy.

Same with any kinds of decisions.

-=-Oh, the big hair. My mom didn't have big hair and simply couldn't
stand my own big hair. -=-

Big hair is gone with one shampoo. Tattoos aren't.

Long straight hair can be put up in curlers anytime.

Yesterday Holly wore a green mini-dress I've had since 1972. It has
mirrored embroidery (shisha) all down the front. She took out the
hem!!! I hemmed it up years ago to make it short enough to be a
decent mini-dress, and she took it down and wore it to her
boyfriend's birthday gathering. It was halfway down to her knees.

Even mini skirts can be undone later. <bwg>

-=--=-He also has issues with our boys long hair. He thinks people
will look at them like they are loosers or worse...girls. But my
experience with them is that almost everyone they meet thinks their
hair is really, really cool.-=-

In 1970 or so I was riding with my dad and someone was walking along
the road with long hair, corduroy jacket and jeans. My dad was
grumbling about "can't even tell if it's a boy or a girl," and I
asked him why it mattered. It was a serious question, and a good
discussion. He said so he would know how to treat them. He was from
the days when there were lots of things one needed to do, like open
doors for women or stand up when they came in. I said it might be
better if people started treating other people the same way without
regard for whether they were female or not (early Women's Movement
days there...). We actually listened to each other. It wasn't an
argument. It was cool. I know right where we were, in Espanola,
driving south between the Santa Cruz turnoff and the Y. I told him
we were in the car and the person was on the side of the road, and it
didn't affect how we passed by.

-=-It is true that tattoos are much more permanent than words on the
shorts or long hair, but in a society where it seems that most of the
young people are getting tattoos on their body, it can't possibly
carry the same stigma into the future of their work or marriages.-=-

If it carries ANY stigma, though, or could make it more difficult for
a person's opportunities in any aspect of life, it's worth advising
them of that instead of saying "Yeah, sure, whatever; it's your body."

I have a friend who worked honor guard at Arlington cemetery when he
was in the Navy. He would've rather been a SEAL. But he was tall,
had no facial scars and no visible tattoos, so that's where they put
him. If you have a possible future military kid who definitely does
NOT want to be doing formal ceremonies, that's information they could
use to get out of that.

If you have a kid who might want to grow up to be a judge or a
politician, they might not want to have tattoos. SOMEday it won't
matter, but some paths need approval of people who are fifty years
older than a person, and if those people don't like tattoos, it will
matter until they're all dead.

Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'd told my daughter I'd want her to wait until she was 13 to get
her ears
pierced. Then one day she went and did it anyway (she was 11). I'm
not sure
what she thought my reaction would be, but I tried hard not to have a
reaction except I'm sure my disappointment showed.-=-

There must be more to this story. How does an 11 year old get to a
place to have ears pierced? Who paid for it or did it?



If this is a child in school, there were other pressures and
influences. If the relationship between parent and child was such
that rules were made and the only way the child could win was for the
parent to lose, that's important information for us to have.

When Holly decided about having her ears pierced, she thought about
it a long time, and talked to many people. I don't remember how old
she was. Sorry. Maybe nine?

Last year she put another hole in her ear, herself, in expression of
a life change (lost a friendship by standing up for principles) and
because she did it without asking, she didn't get any advice about
what might've made it hurt less. But we didn't get mad about it at
all. She did it in the bathroom of the room I was in, in fact,
during the time, and came out and showed us. It wasn't rebellion.
She had all the tools to make a decision like that, and she doesn't
do crazy things.

Lots of things in life take the agreement of two or three people. It
happens with business partnerships, music groups, parents and
children, marriages, people on road trips... When one single person
calls all the shots and makes all the rules, it's not a relationship
anymore, it's more like controlling or bullying. And that's true
whether that one single person is the dad or the mom or the kid.

When people are used to making decisions together, it wouldn't
usually occur to one of them to make a decision without consulting
the other. My friend Jeff and I have been doing a series of
Wednesday discussions. I talk to him about topics and food. I
wouldn't cancel one without talking to him. It's not that I couldn't
do it legally, but within the expectations of our 22-year-old-
friendship, it's just not done. That's why we HAVE a 22 year old
friendship. If it were like a parent/child relationship, he'd've
"been 18" a long time ago.

Sandra


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