melissa_hice

I posted recently about my problems with my family's concerns with my
approach to reading. Now I have another concern. My in laws have the
attitude that most people have. They treat children as if they were
not deserving of their respect. We had a family get together for
Easter and it was so difficult to watch all the coercion, threats,
punishment, etc. that went on. Now that I am getting more familiar
with unschooling, that stuff looks horrible to me. I almost can't bear
to watch it go on.

My husband's family is probably pretty typical as far as what most
people believe regarding discipline. I felt so "foreign" today as I
tried to handle my children in a respectful manner. Remarks were made
not directly to me but in general like, "When I was a kid, I got
spanked for something like that!" or "When I was a kid, I had to eat
everything on my plate," (DD(8) didn't clean her plate but wanted to
eat some of her Easter candy) and just those types of remarks.

When I was a child, my mother was very "brick wall". We were all
scared to death of her. She was not only manipulative, but verbally,
emotionally and physical abusive as well. I think that may be why I
have such a hard time speaking up for myself even when I know what I am
doing is right and confronting people. I always tried to make my
mother happy to avoid any of the consequences, so now I find myself
(even at 40 something) always trying to please others.

It was so hard for me to even think of anything to say when these
remarks were going around the dinner table and afterwards. I just seem
to freeze up. Also, I first heard about unschooling back in September,
so there is still so much I am trying to figure out myself and I am
still finding out what it is I truly do believe.

What are some ways that I can talk to my family about being respectful
to children? Any ideas?

Also, does anyone know if there is a way to do a blog where only people
you want to read it can --- like maybe they have to have a password or
something? I thought maybe if I had some sort of Private blog, my
family and my husband's family could read about what we do and maybe
that would help them see what our life looks like.

I read on, I think, Sandra's site an email that someone wrote to their
family to clear up misconceptions and such about unschooling. I am
wondering if maybe I sent an email to my family discussing my views on
discipline and respect they would understand where I am coming from,
especially since I have such a hard time confronting people in person.

Thanks,
Melissa

Sandra Dodd

-=-What are some ways that I can talk to my family about being
respectful
to children? Any ideas?-=-

It's easier, I think, to just prepare your children for dealing with
disrespectful relatives. They'll meet up with lots of harsh people
in life, and they can practice compassionately on their own
relatives, maybe!



-=-I read on, I think, Sandra's site an email that someone wrote to
their family to clear up misconceptions and such about unschooling.-=-



Wait until you're really confident to do that, I think. And by then
you might not need to.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

melissa_hice

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-What are some ways that I can talk to my family about being
> respectful
> to children? Any ideas?-=-
>
> It's easier, I think, to just prepare your children for dealing
with
> disrespectful relatives. They'll meet up with lots of harsh
people
> in life, and they can practice compassionately on their own
> relatives, maybe!
>

Can you give me some ideas on ways I can prepare my children for
dealing with these disrespectful relatives? They are 5 and 8.

>
>
> -=-I read on, I think, Sandra's site an email that someone wrote
to
> their family to clear up misconceptions and such about unschooling.-
=-
>
>
>
> Wait until you're really confident to do that, I think. And by
then
> you might not need to.
>

Yes, I really do need to wait until I am more confident. Thanks for
pointing that out.

Melissa
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Can you give me some ideas on ways I can prepare my children for
dealing with these disrespectful relatives? They are 5 and 8. -=-

I said "Some people don't like kids much" and "Grandma's kind of mean."

Simple English. <g>



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~"When I was a kid, I got
spanked for something like that!" or "When I was a kid, I had to eat
everything on my plate," (~~

I say things like "that's too bad, I wish it could have been better
for you" or something to that effect. Depends on who is doing the
jabbing.;)

I have a thick skin though. I might come up with some good one-liners
and leave it at that. You will probably invite more criticism if you
try to change their minds or explain unschooling in depth. Let it rest
unless they ask questions. As Kelly Lovejoy always says "the proof is
in the pudding".

Years later, when you still have great relationships with your
children they will quit making lame comments I bet. I don't hear that
kind of crap from family anymore. I'm lucky to have a radical
unschooling sis too....which takes some of the focus off me. :)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< My husband's family is probably pretty typical as far as what most
> people believe regarding discipline. I felt so "foreign" today as I
> tried to handle my children in a respectful manner. Remarks were made
> not directly to me but in general like, "When I was a kid, I got
> spanked for something like that!" or "When I was a kid, I had to eat
> everything on my plate," (DD(8) didn't clean her plate but wanted to
> eat some of her Easter candy) and just those types of remarks. >>>>

I think one way to handle these kinds of remarks is to treat them like an
amazing and sad piece of information about an utterly foreign culture -
which hopefully is how our kids think of them. Sympathetic disarming. They
know you hear their criticism but make a concious refusal to take it on or
allow it to affect your kids or get into an argument.

"Wow how awful."

"What a shame."

"How sad."

Perhaps later on with your kids, "Gee I'm sure glad we don't live the same
way granny did."

This is why we unschool. So that my dd won't ever have that kind of memory
in her head.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH

>Can you give me some ideas on ways I can prepare my children for
>dealing with these disrespectful relatives? They are 5 and 8.
================================

I've said "Grandma and Grandpa don't really know how to be happy" for David's parents. And there have been conversations before or after visiting about how hard it is for some people to change from being quiet and calm to noisy and peaceful.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 23, 2008, at 11:18 PM, melissa_hice wrote:

> It was so hard for me to even think of anything to say when these
> remarks were going around the dinner table and afterwards. I just seem
> to freeze up.

Because you're feeling defensive. Remarks are feeling like attacks.
(They very likely are!)

You want them to stop and you don't know how.

But the only one you can change is you. Other people are who they
are. Unless they're making your kids do something you disagree with
-- then you should jump in -- your kids are probably not feeling the
words the same way you are. They're probably seeing the people as
individuals who have a different way of viewing life. Kids won't see
the occasional "When I was a kid .." remark as a disguised reprimand.
They're too concrete for that fortunately :-) (Living with a parent
who says that is a different story though. It would come with lots of
other remarks and actions to wear the child down.)

If you see these people with compassion, as people who had these
harsh ways of life imposed on them -- who had to make themselves
believe that that's the way life needs to be otherwise they were
suffering for nothing -- it's lots easier to see the point of their
remark as a painful echo of their childhood. It's lots easier to find
a way to not feel their remarks as criticism (even if they are) and
to say, as others suggested, "That's too bad," and so on.

Joyce




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carnationsgalore

> Can you give me some ideas on ways I can prepare my children for
> dealing with these disrespectful relatives? They are 5 and 8.

I got comments like those from some people when my kids were
younger. Now they are 10, 11 and 15 and people aren't so in my
face. Though they do like to talk behind my back. At those times,
I tried to shift the focus onto me instead of my kids. I would say
that times have changed and spanking has been proved to do way much
more harm than good. The particular person in my life that gave me
the most grief has always been impressed with big things, so I told
her that The American Academy of Pediatrics discourages spanking.
As to eating everything on the plate, I would call attention to the
fact that obesity is a real issue in America right now (assuming
that is where you live). I too grew up in the 'clean your plate'
club. The only thing that eating everything on your plate will do
is add more calories to your body. It will not help the starving
children in [insert 3rd world country name here]. As for the Easter
candy, I would have said it's Easter, the kids know they get candy
on that day so keeping it from them would be the same thing as
refusing to allow them to open Christmas gifts on Christmas Day.

Honestly, I found it challenging to rise above my upbringing and
actually stop being afraid of the adults in my family the way I was
afraid when I was a kid. What's the worst they can do? Punish
you? You're an adult. Speak unkindly to you? Hug them and say
you're sorry they see things the way they do and you wish they could
be as full of joy of life as you and your family are. Stop speaking
to you? Well, I've had that happen. I think it hurt them more than
it hurt me in the long run. You are NOT responsible for how they
perceive things. But you can be proactive and protect your children
from going through the same things you have gone through with the
same people, if that makes any sense.

Beth M.

Ren Allen

~~I got comments like those from some people when my kids were
younger. Now they are 10, 11 and 15 and people aren't so in my
face. ~~

Same here. But I do occasionally get the "so is Trevor getting a job?"
now that he's turned the magical 18. He's GOT a job, he just doesn't
get paid for it. His job is playing WoW. :)
Actually, he does odd jobs for pay but what they really want to hear
is that he has some kind of career plans or college plans. We'll have
to disappoint them once again, kind of like when we told them he
wasn't going to school. Wah, wah.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

melissa_hice

Thanks so much for the responses to my post. I am a very sensitive
person, so responding to family members with compassion would feel
right to me. I think if I look at their responses as coming from
people who don't know how to live life joyfully, I WILL feel truly
compassionate towards them and be able to respond from my heart.

My other issue is, because I was controlled so much as a child and
always felt the need (very real need due to the abuse) to please my
mother, I still feel like I have to please everyone. One of the
issues that came up yesterday was that my husband's brother carried
my ds(5) out to the car after church against his will. My brother-in-
law was "helping" me out because, as has been said in my husband's
family many times behind my back and also to me, "Melissa doesn't
know how to control/handle M." (Ds is very intense). I think he was
just taking it upon himself to be "helpful" to me. Then he forced DS
into his car seat and shut the car door. When I got in the car, DS
was crying and said, "Mommy, why didn't you make Uncle J put me
down? I didn't want to be carried. I wanted to walk like a big
boy." I apologized to him and told him I should have told Uncle J to
put him down.

Honestly, while my brother-in-law was carrying him, DS was not crying
or screaming. BIL was doing silly things like holding him upside
down, etc. that DS usually loves. When I noticed that DS didn't like
what was going on was when BIL started forcing him into the car
seat. Also, BIL was getting forceful in his tone of voice and what
he said to DS. I didn't say anything because I was afraid of the
confrontation (we're in a church parking lot and lots of people are
around). Looking back, what I did was let my precious son know that
his feelings were not as important as me "pleasing" my brother-in-
law. Wow. That hurts. That makes me feel ashamed of myself. I
just don't know how to get over the fear of confrontation, even
peaceful confrontation. Maybe those old feelings of what happened as
a child surface in the moment when confrontation comes up. How do
you get over that?

Now, I know everyone in my husband's family thinks I can't handle my
son and that I need lots of help, and this has been going on since DS
was around 2 and before I knew about unschooling or the philosophy of
living life joyfully and peacefully. I was using tools from my past
to deal with my son. Now I know a better way, but my husband's
family is unaware of this philosophy and basically think I am
whimping out on my responsibility to "deal" with my DS.

I need help in learning ways to respond to these family members that
love me and think they are helping me. I know my new way of living
does not look "normal" to them. It looks to them like I am letting
my children "get away with it". I need to learn ways to handle
confrontation and how to stand up for my children.

Melissa


-- In [email protected], "carnationsgalore"
<addled.homemaker@...> wrote:
>
> > Can you give me some ideas on ways I can prepare my children for
> > dealing with these disrespectful relatives? They are 5 and 8.
>
> I got comments like those from some people when my kids were
> younger. Now they are 10, 11 and 15 and people aren't so in my
> face. Though they do like to talk behind my back. At those times,
> I tried to shift the focus onto me instead of my kids. I would say
> that times have changed and spanking has been proved to do way much
> more harm than good. The particular person in my life that gave me
> the most grief has always been impressed with big things, so I told
> her that The American Academy of Pediatrics discourages spanking.
> As to eating everything on the plate, I would call attention to the
> fact that obesity is a real issue in America right now (assuming
> that is where you live). I too grew up in the 'clean your plate'
> club. The only thing that eating everything on your plate will do
> is add more calories to your body. It will not help the starving
> children in [insert 3rd world country name here]. As for the
Easter
> candy, I would have said it's Easter, the kids know they get candy
> on that day so keeping it from them would be the same thing as
> refusing to allow them to open Christmas gifts on Christmas Day.
>
> Honestly, I found it challenging to rise above my upbringing and
> actually stop being afraid of the adults in my family the way I was
> afraid when I was a kid. What's the worst they can do? Punish
> you? You're an adult. Speak unkindly to you? Hug them and say
> you're sorry they see things the way they do and you wish they
could
> be as full of joy of life as you and your family are. Stop
speaking
> to you? Well, I've had that happen. I think it hurt them more
than
> it hurt me in the long run. You are NOT responsible for how they
> perceive things. But you can be proactive and protect your
children
> from going through the same things you have gone through with the
> same people, if that makes any sense.
>
> Beth M.
>

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 24, 2008, at 6:46 AM, melissa_hice wrote:

> I need help in learning ways to respond to these family members that
> love me and think they are helping me. I know my new way of living
> does not look "normal" to them. It looks to them like I am letting
> my children "get away with it". I need to learn ways to handle
> confrontation and how to stand up for my children.

Keep out of situations in which your son's intensity is going to be
apparent and annoying to those family members who might take matters
(literally) into their own hands.

For the times when you can't avoid it -- have an arsenal of words and
phrases ready. For example, the minute you noticed BIL getting overly
forceful, maybe you could have said, "Wait a second." He'd have at
least paused and looked at you and you'd have a second to intervene by
calling your son to you on the pretense of asking him a question or
something.


The family members will maybe change, over the years - but it'll be as
a result of your kids getting older and you seeming more capable and
confident, not as a result of hearing about your parenting ideas.


But, for now, they have to be worked around. Think of them as the
obstacles on a miniature golf course - you might even have a little
fun working around them and helping your kids do so.

This is assuming nobody is spanking your kids, yelling too much
directly at them, hurting their feelings repeatedly, quizzing them too
much. You have to be the judge of whether it is more damaging than
beneficial to be around them at all.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

--- In [email protected], "melissa_hice" <mhice@...> wrote:
>
Looking back, what I did was let my precious son know that
> his feelings were not as important as me "pleasing" my brother-in-
> law. Wow. That hurts. That makes me feel ashamed of myself. I
> just don't know how to get over the fear of confrontation

Don't sit feeling ashamed. You get to learn just like your kids do. Take that
uncomfortableness and ask the hard questions of yourself. Like what are you going to do
next time. Reenact the scene, but replace yourself with your new version. Rewrite the
script--what do you say now? You have plenty of time, you aren't frozen in the moment
anymore--and by the way, I'm sure everyone has a story during a time of transition, when
they didn't know how the new them was going to respond and so they froze. I know I
have. But take that to the next level and create a new response. How will you support
your son? Because now you will.

Begin to create the change you are asking about through fanatasy--play. That's how my
kids do it. Play with what you want to sound like, how you want to present yourself and
imagine what she is like. Practice a few other scenarios before the next get together. You
can also prep your kids if that seems appropriate. "Uncle J sometimes doesn't know when
he is overwhelming you. How about we make a signal you can give me that clearly tells me
you need help, or you say "no" clearly?"

Be prepared--and chances are that if you bring the new you to the party, some of the
challenge won't even present itself. People can read the energy (body signals, posture,
commanding presence, whatever it is) of an alpha person who's confident and in control
from a mile away--so can animals. We know through all of those unconscious signals
who we will respect and who we will challenge in a situation with a pecking order. In a
more loving situation, we read those same signals as who is o.k. and who might need
more social help, and we befriend that person, not single them out for the kill!

I think if I look at their responses as coming from
> people who don't know how to live life joyfully, I WILL feel truly
> compassionate towards them and be able to respond from my heart.
>
And these people, seen through a different lens, may also be challenging you and your
kids to see if you'll break. If you don't, maybe there's something worthwhile there. I
remember so clearly the moment when I decided I would swear. I didn't want to, but it
was cool, so I did. I swore to my mother, and for the first time she didn't stop me. I so
wanted her to stop me and was shocked when she didn't. I actually felt abandoned! But
the point is that to her I was bristly and confrontative and in her face, but inside me I was
small and looking for love and connection. I kept the bristly exterior because my real
needs weren't met, but I knew inside it was all show. Perhaps your family is a lot of bristly
show that looks rough on the outside, but hides a lot of pain on the inside. There's some
chance that as you show a confident person, able to connect with her children instead of
cause them pain, some things will come out that may surprise you--but it may not
happen in the larger group setting.

Joanna

jenbgosh

Is there any way you can just not be around them much? Make other
plans around the holidays (long weekend out of town or something.)

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<< I need help in learning ways to respond to these family members that
> love me and think they are helping me. I know my new way of living
> does not look "normal" to them. It looks to them like I am letting
> my children "get away with it". I need to learn ways to handle
> confrontation and how to stand up for my children. >>>>

My husband has used a phrase - "renting space in your head".

That is what your birth family are doing. I say birth family because now you
have a new family - your dh and children.

There is one big way to handle confrontation that would be the one that
worked for me for years and years with my controlling mother - less contact.
*Way* less contact.

Especially now, while you are still learning about unschooling and making
these huge changes in your thinking and the shape of your soul, especially
now while you are processing your own childhood experiences in a different
way and discovering this new awareness, just don't spend time with your
parents and extended family.

If it takes planning a road trip to avoid a family gathering - do it. If it
takes telling them that you are spending the next holiday with your dh's
family - do it (if that works for you).

If it takes moving across town....well I moved from Texas to Los Angeles,
and if it wasn't LA it would have been New York.

Don't "handle confrontation" - that is a negative mindset that keeps giving
the others the power to create confrontation. Instead focus on "finding self
confidence".

You DO NOT NEED their permission to care for your own family in the best way
for them.

You DO NOT NEED their approval to live your own life.

What about printing Sandra's empowerment certificate and posting it in your
house?

One of the things that I did when my controlling and abusive mother died a
couple of years ago was sit down for an uninterrupted few hours and wrote
about her - every memory I could muster of her childhood as she had told me,
and of mine and of recent events. 13 closely typed pages. I discovered some
patterns in my and her behaviors that were illuminating. It was also a
tremendous catharsis. In one way it made me angry - which is a better place
than feeling powerless and victimized - but I was also able to feel the
anger and come out the other side of it.

Each story, each word was one more snip of the bad ties binding me to my
past emotions and unhealthy mindset, including removing much of the
undeserved guilt. I wish I had thought to do such an exercise when she was
alive.

You can heal. Many of us have done so in the pursuit of a glorious
unschooling childhood for our children.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-Is there any way you can just not be around them much? Make other
plans around the holidays (long weekend out of town or something.) -=-



I think this is a good idea for a while, a couple of years. The kids
will be getting older, your confidence and experience will be
growing, and if the relatives actually miss the kids, you might say
you hope they'll be nicer to them than they were last year (or
whenever), because you're not going to force the kids to visit them,
so they need to make their company fun and desirable!



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Don't "handle confrontation" - that is a negative mindset that
keeps giving
the others the power to create confrontation. Instead focus on
"finding self
confidence".

You DO NOT NEED their permission to care for your own family in the
best way
for them.-=-

YES! That was good. Print that up and put it in your house!

And this, maybe, but what's above is great!

http://sandradodd.com/empowerment



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

-- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...> wrote:

Don't "handle confrontation" - that is a negative mindset that keeps giving
the others the power to create confrontation. Instead focus on "finding self
confidence".-


I love this! It puts into words the sense I've been having when people talk about
"confronting" something or someone. It seems like in my 20's it was really popular, and
almost expected, for people to confront things. Was it more popular in the 80's and 90's or
is it just because I was hanging around other 20 year olds?

Joanna

Sylvia Toyama

And there have been conversations before or after visiting about how
hard it is for some people to change from being quiet and calm to noisy
and peaceful.

Schuyler

*****
I love this, Schuyler! Noisy and peaceful -- what a great picture that
conjures up for me!

Sylvia

graberamy

I'm so close to doing this. I wanted to skip the Easter holidays but
the kids really wanted to see their cousins so I figured I could just
sit there and be. I would just sit there and listen to them talk
about the other grandkids and how smart they are and just look at my
awesome kids and just be.

Then the relatives start to discuss some legislation (they have a
15yo) about curfews on drivers licenses. Well, I just HAD to pipe
in...I think that's awful, I think that should be between a parent and
child. I don't need the government telling me what time my child
needs to be home. Then I said that's like the government deciding at
80 you should no longer be able to drive (I don't believe this, I was
just trying to make a point). I thought we were just kind of pointing
and counter pointing, pleasantly disagreeing. And then I was told to
shut up...really those words, shut up. It kinda ended all discussion
at the table. I really wish I would have gotten up and left right
then and there but we stayed for about an hour.

My family and I disagree ALL the time and I've never been told to shut
up before. This kinda blind sided me. Oh, and this was my sister in
laws mother who is alone (shocking...I know)so is always there.

I never want to go back...at least there's not another holiday for a
long time!

amy g
iowa

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Is there any way you can just not be around them much? Make other
> plans around the holidays (long weekend out of town or something.) -=-
>
>
>
> I think this is a good idea for a while, a couple of years. The kids
> will be getting older, your confidence and experience will be
> growing, and if the relatives actually miss the kids, you might say
> you hope they'll be nicer to them than they were last year (or
> whenever), because you're not going to force the kids to visit them,
> so they need to make their company fun and desirable!
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ren Allen

~~You DO NOT NEED their permission to care for your own family in the
best way for them.

You DO NOT NEED their approval to live your own life.~~

I think this would be worth printing out and posting somewhere if a
person is letting family negativity get to them!

In my early days, I grounded myself by asking whether my child was
more important or this other family member. THAT brought me right back
to what really matters.

When there IS some negativity (and I agree with everyone about
avoiding it) you have to ask yourself whether the negative person or
your CHILD is more important in that moment. My child wins everytime.
I feel a sense of responsibility towards my children that I do NOT
feel for other family members.

Children need and deserve an advocate when someone spews their own
garbage all over the place.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

The other thing that jumps out at me on the confrontation topic is this;

Sometimes you can't avoid confrontation. People who say they don't
care for confrontation are sometimes hiding from the fact that the
confrontation came TO them. You aren't bringing it about when someone
dumps it right in front of you. The confrontation is there whether you
asked for it or not.

So once the confrontation has been brought to you, it's THERE. You
can't avoid it. You can choose what to do with it though...

You can deflect
You can ignore
You can push back
You can set some boundaries gently or not so gently

But it's there either way. That other person decided to bring it to
you, like it or not.:)

We were watching "The Two Towers" the other night. There's that
wonderful scene where Gandolf and Aragorn are trying to convince
Theoden (King of Rohan) to go out and fight rather than flee to Helm's
Deep (completely different scenario than in the book of course).

~~Theoden: I will not risk open war.

Aragorn: Open war is upon you whether you would risk it or not. ~~

Sometimes confrontation is upon you whether you wish it or not. How to
handle that is a great skill to hone in my not-so-humble opinion.
Especially if you're going to buck mainstream society's ideas of
"right" and "good" and forge your own path. Best to learn how to be
very comfortable with your choices and be a strong advocate when your
children need one.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Joanna Murphy

Well, it seems to me that that remark just bought you a ticket to pass on the family
holidays for a while. LOL Now the issue doesn't even need to focus on the children, it's
about common politeness and courtesy for EVERYONE.

Joanna

--- In [email protected], "graberamy" <graber@...> wrote:
>
My family and I disagree ALL the time and I've never been told to shut
up before. This kinda blind sided me. Oh, and this was my sister in
laws mother who is alone (shocking...I know)so is always there.

I never want to go back...at least there's not another holiday for a
long time!

>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@> wrote:
> >
> > -=-Is there any way you can just not be around them much? Make other
> > plans around the holidays (long weekend out of town or something.) -=-
> >
> > I think this is a good idea for a while, a couple of years. The kids
> > will be getting older, your confidence and experience will be
> > growing, and if the relatives actually miss the kids, you might say
> > you hope they'll be nicer to them than they were last year (or
> > whenever), because you're not going to force the kids to visit them,
> > so they need to make their company fun and desirable!
> >
> >
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Sandra Dodd

http://sandradodd.com/peace/noisy

(And there have been conversations before or after visiting about how
hard it is for some people to change from being quiet and calm to noisy
and peaceful.

Schuyler

*****
I love this, Schuyler! Noisy and peaceful -- what a great picture that
conjures up for me!

Sylvia)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Then the relatives start to discuss some legislation (they have a
15yo) about curfews on drivers licenses. Well, I just HAD to pipe
in...I think that's awful, I think that should be between a parent and
child. I don't need the government telling me what time my child
needs to be home-=-

New Mexico has a provisional license period between learner's permit
and full license. I think it's a GREAT idea, because one of the
alternatives would be to move the driving age up.

Holly can't drive between midnight and 6:00 in the morning.

I don't think it's awful. There are kids out drinking (illegally)
and killing other people partly because their parents do NOT
communicate with them well.

-=-. Then I said that's like the government deciding at 80 you should
no longer be able to drive (I don't believe this, I was just trying
to make a point). -=-

If you're saying ANYthing you don't believe, it makes the
conversation worth much less. It makes your opinion worth less.

I started working on a page on integrity. I won't use this as an
example there, but it would be a good example of why it's important
to mean what you say and say what you mean (a la Horton Hatches the
Egg).

-=-My family and I disagree ALL the time and I've never been told to
shut up before. This kinda blind sided me. Oh, and this was my sister
in laws mother who is alone (shocking...I know)so is always there. -=-

Your sister in law's mother isn't quite "family" in terms of
boundaries. If no one else there objected to her saying "shut up,"
though, they agreed by omission. That's why it's important to
object when something awful is done or said too. Silence is consent
in some cases. Lots of cases.

It's not announced yet because it's too small, but http://
sandradodd.com/integrity

(future home of a larger set of writings on integrity)

If you want people to respect your opinion, try not to express
opinions that aren't respectable. And REALLY avoid saying what you
don't believe.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Children need and deserve an advocate when someone spews their own
garbage all over the place. -=-



True, but people also have a right to spew garbage in their own
homes, so back to the "keep some distance" portion of the advice. <g>



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

graberamy

> If you're saying ANYthing you don't believe, it makes the
> conversation worth much less. It makes your opinion worth less.
>

Good point.

I didn't say this in my email (trying to keep it short I guess) but I
did preface it with "That would be like me saying...". So, they did
know I didn't mean it but I still think you've made a good point and I
probably shouldn't have said that if I don't really believe to be true.

> New Mexico has a provisional license period between learner's permit
> and full license. I think it's a GREAT idea, because one of the
> alternatives would be to move the driving age up.

I was just picturing my dd at age 17 (she's only 10 now) over at her
friends watching movies until late, wanting to come home and being
fined for driving after 11:00 (that's the time they said). I realize
driving is a privilege and not a right but it seems teenagers often
get the shaft for other peoples mistakes.

I drank in high school and we drove (not good, I know) and we were on
the roads mainly before midnight (because most of my friends and I had
curfews) so I don't necessarily think that our kids actually are safer
after midnight?? But I don't know the statistics, I'm just going with
my personal knowledge.

>If no one else there objected to her saying "shut up,"
> though, they agreed by omission. That's why it's important to
> object when something awful is done or said too. Silence is consent
> in some cases. Lots of cases.>>

Oh, they definitely agreed. All of them except my hubby.

I know in Iowa some people are trying to change the compulsory school
age to 18 which I'm against as well. If schools were fun, interesting
places to be kids would stay, IMO. I think they also passed
legislation that if a child isn't in school or hasn't turned in a cpi
form (competent private instruction, homeschoolers form) then they
aren't allowed to have a license (silly, they're not in school, now
lets keep from driving to a place of employment). If they drop out of
school their license is revoked.

Maybe this is too state specific for this list, but maybe it's going
on in other places too. I just believe that teenagers have such few
rights and the government is passing legislation all the time that
they have no say in.

Anyway, thanks for the thought provoking comments (even though you
just asked to stop thanking you for them...bwg).

In all honesty I'm probably just trying to find an excuse to stay away
from those family functions!

amy g
iowa
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Then the relatives start to discuss some legislation (they have a
> 15yo) about curfews on drivers licenses. Well, I just HAD to pipe
> in...I think that's awful, I think that should be between a parent and
> child. I don't need the government telling me what time my child
> needs to be home-=-
>

>
> Holly can't drive between midnight and 6:00 in the morning.
>
> I don't think it's awful. There are kids out drinking (illegally)
> and killing other people partly because their parents do NOT
> communicate with them well.
>
> -=-. Then I said that's like the government deciding at 80 you should
> no longer be able to drive (I don't believe this, I was just trying
> to make a point). -=-
>

> I started working on a page on integrity. I won't use this as an
> example there, but it would be a good example of why it's important
> to mean what you say and say what you mean (a la Horton Hatches the
> Egg).
>
> -=-My family and I disagree ALL the time and I've never been told to
> shut up before. This kinda blind sided me. Oh, and this was my sister
> in laws mother who is alone (shocking...I know)so is always there. -=-
>
> Your sister in law's mother isn't quite "family" in terms of
> boundaries.
>
> It's not announced yet because it's too small, but http://
> sandradodd.com/integrity
>
> (future home of a larger set of writings on integrity)
>
> If you want people to respect your opinion, try not to express
> opinions that aren't respectable. And REALLY avoid saying what you
> don't believe.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I realize
driving is a privilege and not a right but it seems teenagers often
get the shaft for other peoples mistakes. -=-

Think of the people who got the BIG shaft for the mistakes of
inexperienced teens driving late at night when they were sleepy or
stressed over being late or whatever. Teens can handle a year or two
of restricted rights.

Kirby worked until 2:00 a.m. a lot when he was first driving, but the
law allows for returning from work. He kept a note in the glove
compartment telling where he worked and where he lived, so he
wouldn't be accused of making it up on the spot. He was never stopped.

-=-Maybe this is too state specific for this list, but maybe it's
going on in other places too. I just believe that teenagers have such
few rights and the government is passing legislation all the time
that they have no say in. -=-

Teenagers have more rights in most of the countries represented on
this list than adults have in some others. It's nothing to grieve
too much about.

-=-Anyway, thanks for the thought provoking comments (even though you
just asked to stop thanking you for them...bwg).-=-

Hey...

People can thank people and say the agree LOTS if they follow that
with useful additions or more good questions. <g>

-=-In all honesty I'm probably just trying to find an excuse to stay
away from those family functions!-=-

#1, don't say "just" if you don't really mean it and

#2, it's a reason, not an excuse, if people are saying "shut up" and
such.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/25/2008 12:10:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:

<<<In my early days, I grounded myself by asking whether my child was
more important or this other family member. THAT brought me right back
to what really matters.>>>



For some folks it isn't that cut and dried. Sometimes the "history" with
family gets wrapped up in the "learning unschooling" and the parent wonders if
they are projecting or imagining things to be worse than they are, sometimes
complicated with kids who don't show much (or any) sign of being upset or
uncomfortable *or* unaffected. Sometimes that exercise is a huge
almost-unsolvable puzzle. Sometimes it takes time to get to know who one is *outside* that
old, conflicted family dynamic, which again, the "leave of absence" works
wonders.

Peace,
De



**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> Maybe this is too state specific for this list, but maybe it's going
> on in other places too. I just believe that teenagers have such few
> rights and the government is passing legislation all the time that
> they have no say in.


http://psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-20070302-000002&p\
age=1
<http://psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-20070302-000002&\
page=1>

This article was posted a long time ago, maybe on this board? Doesn't
matter really. It's a good article that I saved a long time ago. I
don't agree with everything said, but the general idea is a good one.
At the end of the article there is a list of various laws regarding
teens over the years and how there are more and more regulating teens
with the passing of years.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]