etienne_28

Hello,
I am hoping that some other homeschool families might be able to
help us out in a musical quest!
We have been wanting to give our five-year-old daughter piano
lessons for some time. We have tried classes at a couple of
different places and the one where we had the most luck was where
the teacher based the lessons on fun & actually learning to play
songs first, instead of rote memorization, scales, or reading
drills, which I personally believe kills the desire to learn about
music. Unfortunately, that school is quite a distance away from us
and it was impossible to continue lessons because of that distance.
We have kept our eyes open for similarly suitable teachers, but have
not found any that fit what we hope to find. Also, lessons have
become extremely expensive these days and I just can't see ourselves
shelling out so much money for a half an hour lesson without feeling
ripped off.
I have a beginner's knowledge of piano (My background is in
guitar & voice, so of course my daughter is interested in piano), so
I have decided that it might be in our best interests to teach her
what I know, myself. So I am looking for a good book to use to
teach her that is simple, and based on fun and being able to
actually play something right away. Perhaps someone can recommend
such a book? Also, can anyone recommend some good beginner's sheet
music that would be appropriate for 5-7 year olds?
I hope that someone can recommend some good titles! Thanks for
reading this!

~ Tamara

P.S. As long as I am asking, I thought I'd just also ask if anyone
has any suggestions for really good books to teach Spanish out of
for five year olds through highschool/adult beginner's age. We are
a semi-Spanish speaking household and again, we are attempting to
teach our own, but we would really appreciate a book to help us
along. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated!!

beanmommy2

I know several resources that could be helpful:

- Pianimals.com -- these books and CDs were originally designed for
kids five and under and/or kids who just wanted a slower pace. But
I've seen people of all ages and levels enjoy them. They make a point
of putting lots of familiar songs in their books.

- Music Mind Games by Michiko Yurko
You might want to chat with me if you get this book. The games are
great, all hands-on, but I've found I had to adapt them a lot, and
some of the materials I found to be a waste. Lots of really good
stuff there, though. Michiko's big on cooperative learning, at your
own pace, no games with "winners," no "drills," that kind of thing

- If you can find find and afford a Musikgarten class, I would highly
recommend it. If you can't, don't worry about it

- Sing lots. Have your child echo you, in singing and clapping and
patting. Dance around together. I started doing improv duets with my
kids on the piano at about age two or three.

Good luck, and please e-mail me if you have any more questions.

Jenny

Sandra Dodd

Tamara,

I very much prefer people not cross-post to this list. If you have
something good enough and important enough for the special people at
Always Learning, bring it. If you have a question that can be best
answered by the people of Always Learning, ask it here (but not here
and everywhere else at the same time in the same words).

I don't know where else you posted (and am not asking for that
information), but as this is an unschooling list and the responses
are intended to help all those reading to see concepts of unschooling
more clearly, here are some questions (which you don't need to
answer, but I need to ask) and comments:

-=-We have been wanting to give our five-year-old daughter piano
lessons for some time-=-

Does your daughter want to take piano lessons?

-=-Unfortunately, that school is quite a distance away from us and it
was impossible to continue lessons because of that distance. -=-

"Impossible," really? Difficult. Inconvenient, no doubt. If it
were treatment or physical therapy for something she had wrong with
her would you find it "impossible"?

-=-I have a beginner's knowledge of piano (My background is in guitar
& voice, so of course my daughter is interested in piano), so I have
decided that it might be in our best interests to teach her what I
know, myself. -=-

If you think of it as playing and learning together, you could do
some wonderfully fun things. You could think of it as playing with
music, instead of "teaching piano."

This wasn't a good list to come to for advice on "teaching."

Here are some fun ideas about music, though:

http://sandradodd.com/music

-=-As long as I am asking, I thought I'd just also ask if anyone has
any suggestions for really good books to teach Spanish out of for
five year olds through highschool/adult beginner's age. We are a semi-
Spanish speaking household and again, we are attempting to teach our
own-=-

There is Spanish language TV, DVD, music, and radio which are way
better than any one book; than any ten books. Give her easy access
to learning instead of teaching her.

Sandra








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carnationsgalore

We have a great piano teacher who charges only $15 for a 30 minute
lesson at her home. My dd10 has been taking lessons for over a year
using the Bastien Piano Basics series. She's been playing real
songs from the first lesson. She and the teacher basically skipped
the first half of the Primer book because it was simple music
foundations which my daughter already knew. If you have some basic
piano skills, you can probably do well with these books. There are
5 books in each level: piano, theory, performance, technic, and A
Line A Day Sight Reading. Our teacher uses the first two books only
so I don't really know what the others are. While she has taught my
daughter scales for warm up, they don't spend more than a minute on
them. They are always working on real songs. My daughter's latest
song was The Entertainer (Level 2 book). She absolutely loves
playing that one.

Another cool program is called Pianimals, http://www.pianimals.com
I purchased that when my kids were about 4 and 6 years old. They
enjoyed playing around with it on their own. It's a very easy kid
friendly program with colorful books and stickers. I think that is
where my daughter, then 4, learned the basics such as types of
notes, staff, treble clef, notes on the piano. I found out about
this program from a homeschool group.

What I did was to call some specialty schools, like fine arts
schools that offered music and dance. I was looking for an
instructor and one of the school owners knew a great home teacher.

Beth M.

Melissa Wiley

I loved what John Holt wrote about learning to play an instrument: he said
he
never "practiced" his cello�he played it. He didn't think about practicing
the
instrument so that one day he would be able to make music on it; he played
the
instrument and made music. The more he played, the more he was able to play
music he liked the sound of.

I'm paraphrasing, because I can't remember which book it's from. Not the
Never Too
Late one about learning to play cello, because I haven't read that one.
Unless it
was quoted somewhere; that's possible.

Melissa in San Diego
melissawiley.com/blog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

I think it's really worth it to be patient with learning music. For the last 3 or 4 years my girls have been playing the piano. About 2 years ago they decided they were going to try piano lessons. We had some friends who were taking from this woman so we thought we'd try. Well, we went once and the girls were so put off that they didn't want to go again. The teacher was very rigid and seemed to get upset if they wanted to ask questions for longer than she wanted.

That was when Abbi was 11 and Kyra was 8.

They did continue to play the piano but I could see that just the one week of me mentioning practicing had an effect on their excitement. I kept the lesson books but they haven't really liked them. The music is too boring to them. They'd rather play songs they know.

Now in this last year Abbi has really taken off in playing. She wanted to play Mad World after hearing it in the movie Donnie Darko..... so she did. :) I helped her find it online and we printed it out. Then she also wanted to learn some Final Fantasy music that she liked from the Final Fantasy video games. She now plays that really well too.

It pretty much went like this: We'd look for the music. Google it or in music stores. I'd look for one that isn't too complex but still had some nice sounds. I'd play through it, she'd watch me, I would play parts out and she would copy it. That's how she learned Mad World. Some by ear and some by memorizing what she saw me do. With the Final Fantasy song (to Zanarkland) we started that way but then it actually turned into her reading music.

I had printed out some music notation that labels the keys on a piano and the notes; how they correspond. She found that and sat one evening for, I bet, 3-4 hours learning the names of the notes. She now can read music. She is 13 now.

Kyra, now 10, still plays. But she hasn't really wanted to spend the amount of time it takes to learn it the way Abbi decided she wanted to. I'm sure Kyra will too if she feels like it's that important to her.

I do play the piano, and obviously that helps, but if I didn't I guess what I would look for is someone who would be just willing to sit with your child and answer questions about the piano or music or songs that they would like to learn. I guess a REALLY flexible piano teacher might do this.

I'd be really careful about trying to stick to learning with the lesson books. That can just drive all the fun right out of music playing.

This whole process has been amazing for me since it has been so different from how I learned. I started piano at age 7 and played until I was 18. Taking lessons the whole time. I never felt like I was very good and questioned why I was playing... continually.. the girls play because they want to :)

There is a video of Abbi playing the Final Fantasy song on my blog if you'd like to check it out:

http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/2007/11/to-zanarkand-piano.html

Also, I really liked an essay written by Mark Douglas which is in _Deschooling Our Lives_ by Matt Hern. This book is a compilation of essays written by different authors. It's here: http://tinyurl.com/3y2ra4

Mark Douglas is a music teacher, but he talks about how important it is to just play the instruments and make music. He also talks about the negative aspect it can have on a child if you start music lessons too early.








Kelli~


http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/

"There are no ordinary moments." Dan Millman, Peaceful Warrior




---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-That's how she learned Mad World. Some by ear and some by
memorizing what she saw me do. With the Final Fantasy song (to
Zanarkland) we started that way but then it actually turned into her
reading music. -=-

I saw a friend of mine learn to read music last Spring. It was
COOL. He can sing by ear well, and was learning to play recorder by
ear (not so easy)--I would show him a phrase and he would learn it,
and eventually have whole songs.

I had shown him music--played some Clementi and talked about it being
the math I used the most. I just talked for maybe one minute about
it being a hundreds-of-years-old traditional graph for pitch and
rhythm and length of notes, and then we played recorder sometimes out
of the Trapp Family recorder method book, which has REAL songs in the
first few lessons, and within a few sessions he was reading it.

Sandra

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Heather

I just finished reading "Play Piano in a flash! Play your favorite songs
like a pro-whether you've had lessons or not!" by Scott "the piano guy"
Houston.
I loved it! It was very inspirational. I felt a little guilty buying it
<g>, because I had piano lessons as a kid all through high school. So I know
"how" to play piano.
But I was taught classical piano, with all the drills, lesson books, and
scales* *ad nauseam. Which is how most piano teachers learned piano, and so
they teach what they know.
But no one ever showed me how to play non-classical music, using chords and
fake books. Which is what he explains in his book.
Probably not useful for a 5 yr old, but maybe interesting for older kids or
parents.

My daughter, Sierra, is 9 and is taking violin lessons. She saw kids
playing violin in a homeschool music recital and then asked for lessons.
She rarely plays at home but will occasionally put on a "show".
She LOVES her violin teacher who is wonderful - very patient, respectful,
and so forth.
She lets Sierra pick out what she songs she wants to play.
Sierra brought her Finding Nemo music CD for her teacher to borrow, so she
could figure out the music for "under the sea".

heather
in tucson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

beanmommy2

--- In [email protected], Heather <swingdancechick@...>
wrote:

> I just finished reading "Play Piano in a flash! Play your favorite
songs
> like a pro-whether you've had lessons or not!" by Scott "the piano
guy"
> Houston.
> I loved it! It was very inspirational. I felt a little guilty
buying it
> <g>, because I had piano lessons as a kid all through high school.
So I know
> "how" to play piano.
> But I was taught classical piano, with all the drills, lesson
books, and
> scales* *ad nauseam. Which is how most piano teachers learned
piano, and so
> they teach what they know.


That's wild; I was JUST watching his special on PBS two hours ago!

I actually AM a professional piano player/music educator, so I
thought it was very interesting in that regard. When I taught middle
school music in the public schools, I did almost the exact thing he
was talking about: We didn't read the staff at all.

One thing I loved doing was showing them the three chords in Sweet
Home Alabama and had them take turns playing it in groups, while I
sang: "Big wheels keep on turning ..." Ha!

One thing I didn't agree with Scott about is that sheet music, the
staff, notation, etc, is just for classical music. Huh? Maybe I
misunderstood what he meant by that. But I've played all kinds of
music, from Christmas carols to church praise band songs to blues and
jazz, using written music on the staff. Notation isn't just for
playing Beethoven sonatas and Bach minuets.

Jenny

tamara martinez

Dear Ms. Dodd,
Thanks for your response and for your suggestions. Yours, like everyone else's are very much appreciated as I brought up this question to this list and other unschooling lists to get the support from other unschooling families like ourselves. Having said this, I'm not exactly sure what the problem is with my post. I am still unclear as to why it is considered wrong to cross post to this list...? I have to disagree with your statement:

"This wasn't a good list to come to for advice on "teaching."

On the contrary, this was a wonderful list to come to for advice. Look at how many kind and very helpful replies I received compared to yours. Not only that, but I was able to benefit from what others shared about their own unschooling experiences. Nowhere in my post did I mention anything about wanting information on how to "teach" my daughter. I only asked for simple book & sheet music suggestions. Not knowing I'd have to defend my request with all the why's & why not's about my family's personal business in order to get a kind and helpful response, but the reason I am asking for simple books is because my daughter happens to love books and she loves learning from books. Because she's so proud of herself for having taught herself to read, she wants to read books about learning to play the piano. Go figure that it's now my mission to find her some.
I received some very helpful, wonderful feedback within just hours of sending my post for which I am very grateful for, from people on this list who seemed very happy to help me. Those moms seem to get what I am after, but it seems that you don't.
I was unaware that being an unschooler meant totally shunning books for any purpose! I have been on this and other unschooling lists for quite sometime, we belong to unschooling support groups, we go to unschooling conferences, and we have considered ours to be an unschooling family for years. I do not need a lesson in unschooling. Our, and it seems many other families' definition of unschooling includes obtaining whatever the child wants or needs to learn what she wants to learn. Strange as it may seem, that may include books, and even classes from time to time. Would you shun the very idea of books and classes just because they're not "unschooly" enough, therefore depriving your child of possibly discovering another way to learn just because *you* disapprove of it? How sad.
Why do you even question whether my daughter *wants* to take piano lessons or not? I feel that your questioning her desire is insulting to me. Of course she wants to take lessons. We, like most unschoolers I know, allow our children to direct their own education.
Again, your questioning of my use of the word "impossible" is extremely insulting and downright haughty. Why do you assume that you can talk to people that way? You do not even know me. I am aware of how I use my words, and "impossible" was the word I intended to use. It *is* impossible to take her 50 miles away to a piano lesson when gas and the lessons themselves might compromise our having groceries for the rest of our family or paying our bills that month. There are such things as financial obligations. And it just so happens Ms. Dodd, that our daughter does need Physical Therapy, Speech Therapy, and Occupational Therapy, three days a week for which we drive an hour to and an hour from for one hour of each therapy, every single week. We also drive her forty minutes away for ballet classes every week. Maybe you need to look at your own definition of "impossible".
And since you think I'm so dumb, apparently you had to point out the obvious resources for Spanish lessons too. It probably never occured to you that someone so dumb as I would have not only tried those options but that our book-loving family would appreciate the extra help from books as well.
I can't believe that I was so foolish as not to run directly to your blog for instructions on how to unschool my children. I didn't know I was breaking the "rules" of unschooling, and I'm so glad you took the time out of your day to point them out to me. Thanks also, for posting your rude response so that everyone could see it instead of emailing me privately. I wonder if you will have the guts to do the same.
I do not think that I want to be on a list with such an elitist view of unschooling. Such a limited point of view can't be healthy. I am not saying that all the members are like this, because that is most certainly not the case. I have enjoyed being part of this list until now. And the other suggestions I received were very kind and helpful and thoughtful. It's too bad that you can't see it that way.
Thanks to everyone else for sharing with me. I've got some wonderful titles and good places to start and I am very excited to start looking into them.

~ Tamara


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barbara Perez

Dear Tamara,
I got home late today, saw your post about piano, then started reading the
responses before posting my own. Then I got to Sandra Dodds'. I was
immediately disappointed and taken aback by her tone.

I was going to reply to it to say just that, when I then saw that you had
taken care of it yourself.

While posted in my opinion perhaps overly defensively (but understandably
so), I agree with you on some very specific points:
1 Unschooling is not and should not mean shunning books.
2 Your post to ask for advice was perfectly appropriate for this board.
and 3 Sandra never stated what could possibly be wrong with cross-posting
your request for advice.

One other thing: I don't think she bothered to read your original post very
well. In it you clearly stated that your daughter chose piano (while your
talents are in guitar and elsewhere). Yet her very first antagonistic
question to you was "are you sure she wants to learn?" Indeed, if only she
had taken the time to read your post carefully as opposed to jumping at it
offensively, she might have prevented her mistake.

On the other hand, we all make mistakes, and even Sandra, I think and hope,
will admit she's human and imperfect and then we can all respect her again
and go on with the business of loving and learning with our children.

Respectfully
Barbara Perez



On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 9:16 PM, tamara martinez <fleur-de-lis@...>
wrote:

> Dear Ms. Dodd,
> Thanks for your response and for your suggestions. Yours, like everyone
> else's are very much appreciated as I brought up this question to this list
> and other unschooling lists to get the support from other unschooling
> families like ourselves. Having said this, I'm not exactly sure what the
> problem is with my post. I am still unclear as to why it is considered wrong
> to cross post to this list...? I have to disagree with your statement:
>
>
> "This wasn't a good list to come to for advice on "teaching."
>
> On the contrary, this was a wonderful list to come to for advice. Look at
> how many kind and very helpful replies I received compared to yours. Not
> only that, but I was able to benefit from what others shared about their own
> unschooling experiences. Nowhere in my post did I mention anything about
> wanting information on how to "teach" my daughter. I only asked for simple
> book & sheet music suggestions. Not knowing I'd have to defend my request
> with all the why's & why not's about my family's personal business in order
> to get a kind and helpful response, but the reason I am asking for simple
> books is because my daughter happens to love books and she loves learning
> from books. Because she's so proud of herself for having taught herself to
> read, she wants to read books about learning to play the piano. Go figure
> that it's now my mission to find her some.
> I received some very helpful, wonderful feedback within just hours of
> sending my post for which I am very grateful for, from people on this list
> who seemed very happy to help me. Those moms seem to get what I am after,
> but it seems that you don't.
> I was unaware that being an unschooler meant totally shunning books for
> any purpose! I have been on this and other unschooling lists for quite
> sometime, we belong to unschooling support groups, we go to unschooling
> conferences, and we have considered ours to be an unschooling family for
> years. I do not need a lesson in unschooling. Our, and it seems many other
> families' definition of unschooling includes obtaining whatever the child
> wants or needs to learn what she wants to learn. Strange as it may seem,
> that may include books, and even classes from time to time. Would you shun
> the very idea of books and classes just because they're not "unschooly"
> enough, therefore depriving your child of possibly discovering another way
> to learn just because *you* disapprove of it? How sad.
> Why do you even question whether my daughter *wants* to take piano lessons
> or not? I feel that your questioning her desire is insulting to me. Of
> course she wants to take lessons. We, like most unschoolers I know, allow
> our children to direct their own education.
> Again, your questioning of my use of the word "impossible" is extremely
> insulting and downright haughty. Why do you assume that you can talk to
> people that way? You do not even know me. I am aware of how I use my words,
> and "impossible" was the word I intended to use. It *is* impossible to take
> her 50 miles away to a piano lesson when gas and the lessons themselves
> might compromise our having groceries for the rest of our family or paying
> our bills that month. There are such things as financial obligations. And it
> just so happens Ms. Dodd, that our daughter does need Physical Therapy,
> Speech Therapy, and Occupational Therapy, three days a week for which we
> drive an hour to and an hour from for one hour of each therapy, every single
> week. We also drive her forty minutes away for ballet classes every week.
> Maybe you need to look at your own definition of "impossible".
> And since you think I'm so dumb, apparently you had to point out the
> obvious resources for Spanish lessons too. It probably never occured to you
> that someone so dumb as I would have not only tried those options but that
> our book-loving family would appreciate the extra help from books as well.
> I can't believe that I was so foolish as not to run directly to your blog
> for instructions on how to unschool my children. I didn't know I was
> breaking the "rules" of unschooling, and I'm so glad you took the time out
> of your day to point them out to me. Thanks also, for posting your rude
> response so that everyone could see it instead of emailing me privately. I
> wonder if you will have the guts to do the same.
> I do not think that I want to be on a list with such an elitist view of
> unschooling. Such a limited point of view can't be healthy. I am not saying
> that all the members are like this, because that is most certainly not the
> case. I have enjoyed being part of this list until now. And the other
> suggestions I received were very kind and helpful and thoughtful. It's too
> bad that you can't see it that way.
> Thanks to everyone else for sharing with me. I've got some wonderful
> titles and good places to start and I am very excited to start looking into
> them.
>
> ~ Tamara
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Dear Tamara,
I got home late today, saw your post about piano, then started
reading the
responses before posting my own. Then I got to Sandra Dodds'. I was
immediately disappointed and taken aback by her tone.

-=-I was going to reply to it to say just that, when I then saw that
you had
taken care of it yourself.-=-

She didn't "take care of it," she made it much worse.

I let these two posts through so I could discuss the confusion and
misconceptions in them.

-=-In it you clearly stated that your daughter chose piano (while
your talents are in guitar and elsewhere). Yet her very first
antagonistic question to you was "are you sure she wants to learn?" -=-

My first question was not antagonistic, nor was it "Are you sure she
wants to learn?" It was a question about whether the parents wanted
to give her lessons (as the poster very clearly stated when she wrote
"We have been wanting to give our five-year-old daughter piano
lessons for some time"), or whether the daughter wanted to take
lessons (my words: "Does your daughter want to take piano lessons?")

For that to have been paraphrased "are you sure she wants to learn?"
is a huge jump, but to use quotation marks on my words when my words
were (or could have been and should have been) right in front of the
writer is



Quotation marks are to indicate the exact words of another person.

The next line: -=-Indeed, if only she had taken the time to read
your post carefully ...-=-

I read it word for word. I quoted it with cut and paste.

-=-Nowhere in my post did I mention anything about wanting
information on how to "teach" my daughter.-=-

The name of the post was DIY Piano lessons. "Lessons" have a solid
implication of teaching. Even if "lessons" were the only evidence, I
would think it to have been about teaching, but the post said "I have
decided that it might be in our best interests to teach her what I
know, myself. So I am looking for a good book to use to teach... "

Perhaps in the interest of peace on the list I shouldn't have let any
of those posts through at all. The authors hadn't posted before and
so were on moderation. But I thought the responses would help the
mom (and other readers) understand unschooling better, so I let them
through.

-=-thought I'd just also ask if anyone has any suggestions for really
good books to teach Spanish out of for five year olds through
highschool/adult beginner's age. We are a semi-Spanish speaking
household and again, we are attempting to teach our own,-=-

Two "teaches" on that, too.

Ask about LEARNING on this list, not about teaching.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/

"Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books Learning
All the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made
unschooling a sweet and viable option for thousands of families. This
is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not
moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play
way.) It's an idea group and is intended to lean more toward pure
unschooling than neutral, general homeschooling discussion�there are
hundreds of general homeschooling discussions for newcomers. It's to
focus more toward how people learn no matter where in the world they
are, rather than on what's legal in any particular country or
jurisdiction. If you have questions or complaints, write to
Sandra@... "
Words very much matter. http://sandradodd.com/wordswords

-=-I was unaware that being an unschooler meant totally shunning
books for any purpose! ... I do not need a lesson in unschooling. -=-

http://sandradodd.com/books

This list doesn't offer "lessons" in unschooling. It's a discussion
about how natural learning works.

-=-Would you shun the very idea of books and classes just because
they're not "unschooly" enough, therefore depriving your child of
possibly discovering another way to learn just because *you*
disapprove of it? How sad.-=-

Would you ask a question like that if you had any idea who my kids
are and what they've done? I hope you keep that snarky "How sad"
away from your children.

-=-Why do you even question whether my daughter *wants* to take piano
lessons or not? I feel that your questioning her desire is insulting
to me. Of course she wants to take lessons. We, like most unschoolers
I know, allow our children to direct their own education. -=-

The question was asked because the post gave no indication that it
was her choice.

The phrase "direct their own education" isn't the kind of unschooling
this list is about. People here can help you see ways to learn with
your children and to create an environment in which all KINDS of
things can be learned without lessons or teaching or direction or
"education."

-=-Again, your questioning of my use of the word "impossible" is
extremely insulting and downright haughty. Why do you assume that you
can talk to people that way? You do not even know me. I am aware of
how I use my words, and "impossible" was the word I intended to use.
It *is* impossible-=-

You take her that far for speech therapy and ballet, so it's not
"impossible."

-=-You do not even know me. I am aware of how I use my words-=-

I don't even know you, but you voluntarily posted on a list I own
(though you posted on other lists too). I think perhaps you missed
the fact that you used "teach" four times in a brief post. It might
be good for you to be more aware of how and what and where you're
writing.



I'd also like to point out some irony/dishonesty:

barbara.perez@ joined Mar 10, 2008 and had never posted before.

She wrote: "...started reading the responses before posting my
own." Her own response had nothing to do with piano, just about me.

fleur-de-lis@'s first post was a cross-posted request that seemed not
to have been addressed to this list at all.

She wrote "I do not think that I want to be on a list with such an
elitist view of
> unschooling. Such a limited point of view can't be healthy. I am
not saying
> that all the members are like this, because that is most certainly
not the
> case. I have enjoyed being part of this list until now.

For ten months she's been on the list and she didn't notice "an
elitist view of unschooling" before now? She's getting a digest
version. Someone wasn't reading carefully, but I wasn't the one.

This list isn't like every other list. It is what it is. For those
who aren't yet aware of what it is, it's too soon for you to post.
For those who are aware and don't like it, there are other
unschooling lists here and I'm not on any but UnschoolingDiscussion:
http://sandradodd.com/lists/other

Sandra, list owner

P.S. This:

-=-On the other hand, we all make mistakes, and even Sandra, I think
and hope,
will admit she's human and imperfect and then we can all respect her
again
and go on with the business of loving and learning with our children.

Respectfully-=-

Don't slam and insult and try to manipulate me and then follow it
with "respectfully."

Don't speak for the list that way. Don't say "We can all respect her
again..." That's quite too much for someone who's been on the list
nine days.

If you can't love and learn with your children without respecting me,
that's a serious problem for you and your children. But I don't
think you intended to suggest that. I think you wanted me to
apologize for asking questions that would lead toward seeing
something in the light of natural learning.

Here's an admission I'm imperfect:

http://sandradodd.com/zeneverything

The respect of someone whose first post to my list is manipulative,
misquoting nonsense would be worthless to me.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 18, 2008, at 10:58 PM, Barbara Perez wrote:

> While posted in my opinion perhaps overly defensively (but
> understandably
> so), I agree with you on some very specific points:
> 1 Unschooling is not and should not mean shunning books.

LOL - most of our homes are overflowing with books. Sandra's house
even has a real library, to say nothing of books in the bathrooms,
bedrooms, common spaces, and every other room. Nothing in Sandra's
response said: "shun books."

>
> 2 Your post to ask for advice was perfectly appropriate for this
> board.

First, this is Sandra's list and she can decide for herself what is
appropriate for her own list. She's generously spending her time
paying attention to it and making sure it sticks to her purpose in
providing it.

Second, the original post was written from a school-at-home
perspective, not an unschooling mindset. "We have been wanting to give
our five-year-old daughter piano lessons for some time." The child is
only five, but they have wanted to do this for her for some time and
have already tried classes at a couple of different places.

There was not a single comment in the entire post about what the five-
year-old wanted, how she felt, what she was doing or saying to
indicate she'd like formal lessons or classes. "We tried classes...".
Who is the "we?" Mother and father and daughter tried them together?

You might point to this and think it means she is saying her daughter
is asking for piano lessons..
"(My background is in guitar & voice, so of course my daughter is
interested in piano)"

But that sounds like what we hear from people who are insisting on
music lessons of some kind, but letting the child choose what kind of
music she wants to study.

And (of course?) she chose piano because that was not what the mother
does. Why "of course?" Sarcasm? A comment about how children are
typically perverse in their choices? Again, NOT an unschooling
perspective.

There was NOTHING in that post to indicate that the child really wants
this. Nothing saying what the child is currently doing to show that
she has the desire. No reason given for why they want to give formal
lessons, using a structured curriculum. No request for any OTHER ideas
for ways they could support a five-year-old's musical interests.

Then, added to that, she also wants a Spanish language curriculum
(books to teach out of for ages 5 through high school) so that they
can "teach at home."

Again, nothing wrong with books. Nothing wrong with USING books. The
problem with this post is that the writer didn't come looking for ways
to support her daughter's deep interest in learning to play the piano
or learning to speak Spanish - she is coming to an unschooling
discussion list, but just asking for structured lesson plans for
teaching her five-year-old child at home.

>
> and 3 Sandra never stated what could possibly be wrong with cross-
> posting
> your request for advice.

It wasn't a request for unschooling advice. It was a request for
"teach-at-home" curricular materials. The problem with cross-posting
is that the various lists are not interchangeable - to post the same
request to different lists means you're not considering the unique
nature of each list and it means the posts are generic. That post
could have just as easily gone to a list called, "Teaching Kids What
They Need to Know" or the "How to Get Kids to Learn What We Want Them
to Learn" list. That makes it inappropriate for THIS list.

-pam





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

Barbara--(if you are still on this list)

This list is a place (of Sandra's) to hash out ideas and to gain clarity--it's not a place to
jump to conclusions, use exaggerations to make your point, or to "win" an argument. That
doesn't deepen or clarify anyone's understanding of unschooling/natural learning. If
Tamara had honestly wanted to engage in a conversation that would meet that end she
could have done that. I've been on this list long enough now to have seen many people
begin awkwardly, be misunderstood and questioned, and then respond with more clarity.
And along the way get a better handle on what they are asking and why.

Tamara had her chance to "pick the brain" of those older and wiser than herself who have
been on this path a long time, but rather than use that precious opportunity to get actual
advice in the manner that this list specializes in, she was insulted that she wasn't directed,
by Sandra Dodd of all people, to more and better curriculum for teaching the subjects her
daughter "chose." I use quotation marks, because it is unclear from her post that her
daughter did any actual choosing.

I'm writing to you to suggest that you be much more careful in the future when you post a
"flamer" on any list, because they can be embarrassing and very difficult to recover from.
In the end, that quick to react temperment will not serve your children and help to
facilitate their interactions in the world.

Joanna

--- In [email protected], "Barbara Perez" <barbara.perez@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Tamara,
> I got home late today, saw your post about piano, then started reading the
> responses before posting my own. Then I got to Sandra Dodds'. I was
> immediately disappointed and taken aback by her tone.
>
> I was going to reply to it to say just that, when I then saw that you had
> taken care of it yourself.
>
> While posted in my opinion perhaps overly defensively (but understandably
> so), I agree with you on some very specific points:
> 1 Unschooling is not and should not mean shunning books.
> 2 Your post to ask for advice was perfectly appropriate for this board.
> and 3 Sandra never stated what could possibly be wrong with cross-posting
> your request for advice.
>
> One other thing: I don't think she bothered to read your original post very
> well. In it you clearly stated that your daughter chose piano (while your
> talents are in guitar and elsewhere). Yet her very first antagonistic
> question to you was "are you sure she wants to learn?" Indeed, if only she
> had taken the time to read your post carefully as opposed to jumping at it
> offensively, she might have prevented her mistake.
>
> On the other hand, we all make mistakes, and even Sandra, I think and hope,
> will admit she's human and imperfect and then we can all respect her again
> and go on with the business of loving and learning with our children.
>
> Respectfully
> Barbara Perez
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 9:16 PM, tamara martinez <fleur-de-lis@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Ms. Dodd,
> > Thanks for your response and for your suggestions. Yours, like everyone
> > else's are very much appreciated as I brought up this question to this list
> > and other unschooling lists to get the support from other unschooling
> > families like ourselves. Having said this, I'm not exactly sure what the
> > problem is with my post. I am still unclear as to why it is considered wrong
> > to cross post to this list...? I have to disagree with your statement:
> >
> >
> > "This wasn't a good list to come to for advice on "teaching."
> >
> > On the contrary, this was a wonderful list to come to for advice. Look at
> > how many kind and very helpful replies I received compared to yours. Not
> > only that, but I was able to benefit from what others shared about their own
> > unschooling experiences. Nowhere in my post did I mention anything about
> > wanting information on how to "teach" my daughter. I only asked for simple
> > book & sheet music suggestions. Not knowing I'd have to defend my request
> > with all the why's & why not's about my family's personal business in order
> > to get a kind and helpful response, but the reason I am asking for simple
> > books is because my daughter happens to love books and she loves learning
> > from books. Because she's so proud of herself for having taught herself to
> > read, she wants to read books about learning to play the piano. Go figure
> > that it's now my mission to find her some.
> > I received some very helpful, wonderful feedback within just hours of
> > sending my post for which I am very grateful for, from people on this list
> > who seemed very happy to help me. Those moms seem to get what I am after,
> > but it seems that you don't.
> > I was unaware that being an unschooler meant totally shunning books for
> > any purpose! I have been on this and other unschooling lists for quite
> > sometime, we belong to unschooling support groups, we go to unschooling
> > conferences, and we have considered ours to be an unschooling family for
> > years. I do not need a lesson in unschooling. Our, and it seems many other
> > families' definition of unschooling includes obtaining whatever the child
> > wants or needs to learn what she wants to learn. Strange as it may seem,
> > that may include books, and even classes from time to time. Would you shun
> > the very idea of books and classes just because they're not "unschooly"
> > enough, therefore depriving your child of possibly discovering another way
> > to learn just because *you* disapprove of it? How sad.
> > Why do you even question whether my daughter *wants* to take piano lessons
> > or not? I feel that your questioning her desire is insulting to me. Of
> > course she wants to take lessons. We, like most unschoolers I know, allow
> > our children to direct their own education.
> > Again, your questioning of my use of the word "impossible" is extremely
> > insulting and downright haughty. Why do you assume that you can talk to
> > people that way? You do not even know me. I am aware of how I use my words,
> > and "impossible" was the word I intended to use. It *is* impossible to take
> > her 50 miles away to a piano lesson when gas and the lessons themselves
> > might compromise our having groceries for the rest of our family or paying
> > our bills that month. There are such things as financial obligations. And it
> > just so happens Ms. Dodd, that our daughter does need Physical Therapy,
> > Speech Therapy, and Occupational Therapy, three days a week for which we
> > drive an hour to and an hour from for one hour of each therapy, every single
> > week. We also drive her forty minutes away for ballet classes every week.
> > Maybe you need to look at your own definition of "impossible".
> > And since you think I'm so dumb, apparently you had to point out the
> > obvious resources for Spanish lessons too. It probably never occured to you
> > that someone so dumb as I would have not only tried those options but that
> > our book-loving family would appreciate the extra help from books as well.
> > I can't believe that I was so foolish as not to run directly to your blog
> > for instructions on how to unschool my children. I didn't know I was
> > breaking the "rules" of unschooling, and I'm so glad you took the time out
> > of your day to point them out to me. Thanks also, for posting your rude
> > response so that everyone could see it instead of emailing me privately. I
> > wonder if you will have the guts to do the same.
> > I do not think that I want to be on a list with such an elitist view of
> > unschooling. Such a limited point of view can't be healthy. I am not saying
> > that all the members are like this, because that is most certainly not the
> > case. I have enjoyed being part of this list until now. And the other
> > suggestions I received were very kind and helpful and thoughtful. It's too
> > bad that you can't see it that way.
> > Thanks to everyone else for sharing with me. I've got some wonderful
> > titles and good places to start and I am very excited to start looking into
> > them.
> >
> > ~ Tamara
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ren Allen

~~
-=-Would you shun the very idea of books and classes just because
they're not "unschooly" enough, therefore depriving your child of
possibly discovering another way to learn just because *you*
disapprove of it? How sad.-=-~~


This made me laugh! We don't shun much of anything in our home, nor do
I know unschoolers personally who shun any materials. We shun mean
people.:)

Our home is filled with books and movies and video games and art
supplies and music and bones and rocks and games all sorts of things
we don't "shun". Nor do we disapprove of topics our children are
interested in, even when it might be difficult to understand at first
(I'm think my initial distaste for Grand Theft Auto).

When somebody comes to an unschooling list wanting a suggestion for
how to teach a child something, that SHOULD get questioned. I'm not in
the business of teaching anybody anything. I'm not in the business of
deciding what other people should or shouldn't do...though I might
have ideas about that.:)

But when somebody wants that "magic pill" answer that will fix all
their problems, or that perfect curriculum or method that will make
their children learn something, they aren't seeing unschooling at all.

When I was hanging out with Mary Griffith at InHome last week, she was
laughing about the fact that some people question her repeatedly about
unschooling because they still see it as some "magic pill" method.
They want her (or me or other speakers/writers) to HAND them the answer.

Nobody knows your answers. It's about applying a philosophy to life
and figuring out your OWN answers. Unschooling is hugely about a shift
in thinking and NOT having anything handed to you by another person
(though we all benefit from voices of experience or new ideas etc...).

When the list doesn't come back and say "try this kind of book" or
"try this method" then people get all offended. Instead of offering
the pat answer that will fix everything, the list says "here's where
your thinking might be a stumbling block to unschooling".

Ouch.
That's not the answer that was expected!:)
It's the only answer to expect at a list whose purpose is to help
people understand natural learning. Natural learning evolves...well,
naturally! Not because Mum found the perfect methodology or teacher.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-There was NOTHING in that post to indicate that the child really
wants
this. Nothing saying what the child is currently doing to show that
she has the desire. No reason given for why they want to give formal
lessons, using a structured curriculum. No request for any OTHER ideas
for ways they could support a five-year-old's musical interests.-=-



There was also nothing in that list that said "unschooling." It said
"other homeschool families," and so the defense about having been to
unschooling conferences and being unschoolers who didn't need a
lesson in unschooling sounded somewhere between "blah blah blah" and
a quick, defensive fiction.

It's true, I have some books. Ordered another one yesterday. Have
three new ones I haven't finished yet. Was reading a borrowed one
last night so I can return it. Put two books in the bathroom reading
rack that I know the kids haven't seen before, that I found when I
was cleaning out the history and New Mexico sections in the library
yesterday morning so I can put my Christmas books on a shelf instead
of in a box with Christmas stuff. I had to move some puzzles and
blocks that have been used in the past few weeks, but should be with
puzzles and blocks and not hogging my shelves.



I'm going to go and video that library, though, with the cleaned-off
shelf, and post it somewhere and refer to that the next time (the
next TIMES, because it happens with embarrassing frequency) someone
says unschoolers don't use books.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tara

Tamara, I just wanted to give you an outsider's perspective. Just
another perspective to contrast agianst your own. You are free to
take it or leave it, but I hope that you will read this as coming
from a caring place. (In other words, if it offends you, please try
rereading it with the assumption that my tone is nicer than you
originally presumed.)

When I read Sandra's response, I in no way saw anything rude,
insulting or downright haughty. I saw Sandra sticking to the purpose
of this group, which is for us as parents to learn about natural
learning and to learn how natural learning applies to our home.

I saw nothing that said that what you're doing is wrong. She simply
stuck to the subject of this group - natural learning - and asked you
to do the same.

If my 8yr old decides he wants to learn multiplication, I know this
is not the group to come for. There are other groups/resources for
that. This group is to help me understand my child and the way he
grows. Again, that's the purpose of this group.

On the oher hand, when I read your reply to Sandra, I could see your
initial reaction was defensive but trying to be friendly. Then I saw
your words slowly work themself into a state of frustration, anger
and defense. Which shows me that everything you said in the beginning
(the thank you's) was all for show and once you got on a roll, your
real emotions came out, which was that you were offended.

There is nothing wrong with your feeling what you felt. But here is
something I've learned from these groups. When I am offended by
something a *stranger* did or said, I need to examine "Why". Why did
that comment or remark from a complete stranger affect me that way?
Usually (maybe even always) it has to do with me; my issue and my
defensiveness when they held up that mirror. When this happens, I
usually take a day...or several days...to allow what they
said/did/wrote to sink in. I examine my feelings toward it, allow
myself to question its validity and then I go back and reread it.
Everytime I reread it, it doesn't seem as rude or offensive as I
first thought. That's how I know it's *me*; their comment struck a
chord in me that I wasn't ready to see.

I would venture to say the same thing for you. Judging by the way you
wrote, I was surprised to see you say you had been unschooling "for
years". That wasn't the impression I got at all. Therefore I would be
so bold as to say that the reason you felt offended over Sandra's
comments were simply the fact that she held up a mirror; maybe she
even showed you that your desire for your daughter to learn piano was
*your* desire and not your daughter's. Maybe she showed you, as an
unschooler, that what you were doing was harmful more than helpful to
your unschooling. I don't know.

But I - and most everyone here - does know that many, many people
come on these boards thinking they get it, thinking they are full-
fledged unschoolers, when they really don't get it. Or they really do
get it but are ignoring it to accomplish what they want. And since
these boards are here to help people "get it" and since we only have
your descriptions to go off of, we're going to take your words at
face value which sometimes looks to us like you don't get it, and
we're going to do what we're here to do, which is help you "get it".

What else can we do? It's kind of hard to presume something other
than what is stated...and to not help would make this board useless.

One more thing: I was one of those people who was "offended" by
Sandra awhile back. That's because she is upfront and honest and
immediately holds up a mirror and I wasn't used to that nor was I
ready to see what the reflection staring back at me. Awhile ago I
went back and reread some things that had been written to me months
later and laughed because they were in no way, shape or form
offensive! I was only offended because it was *my* issue.

I for one appreciate Sandra keeping this board on topic and I also
appreciate her holding up that mirror on occasion.

My point of all this long-windedness is to say *from my perspective*,
the only rudeness I saw was coming from your and Barbara's replies.
And the only haughtiness I witnessed, was Barbara implying "we" as a
group don't respect Sandra. *I* certainly respect Sandra and all the
other veteran unschoolers on this board. Without them my family would
probbly still be in shambles. Because of them, our lives are
infinitely enriched with laughter and connection and love. I owe them
an awful lot for their "rudeness".

~ Tara

Barbara Perez

To everyone:
I'm still trying to digest all this. I don't have time right now to do it
properly, but I will come back when I'm ready, because I do see the value of
continuing on this list, so I hope Sandra will "let me through". As for now,
I just wanted to say thank you to those who posted in a positive manner,
especially Tara whose caring tone definitely came through for me, even
though she intended her message for Tamara. I need to, again, go back and
look at my words to see where I went wrong, and I will. Until then, I
appreciate a spirit of cooperation and hope this is that kind of place. I
wouldn't be interested in remaining if it wasn't. (Or maybe I need to google
"gentle" and "support group" - I just might!) Until then,
Barbara

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Tara <organicsis@...> wrote:

> Tamara, I just wanted to give you an outsider's perspective. Just
> another perspective to contrast agianst your own. You are free to
> take it or leave it, but I hope that you will read this as coming
> from a caring place. (In other words, if it offends you, please try
> rereading it with the assumption that my tone is nicer than you
> originally presumed.)
>
> When I read Sandra's response, I in no way saw anything rude,
> insulting or downright haughty. I saw Sandra sticking to the purpose
> of this group, which is for us as parents to learn about natural
> learning and to learn how natural learning applies to our home.
>
> I saw nothing that said that what you're doing is wrong. She simply
> stuck to the subject of this group - natural learning - and asked you
> to do the same.
>
> If my 8yr old decides he wants to learn multiplication, I know this
> is not the group to come for. There are other groups/resources for
> that. This group is to help me understand my child and the way he
> grows. Again, that's the purpose of this group.
>
> On the oher hand, when I read your reply to Sandra, I could see your
> initial reaction was defensive but trying to be friendly. Then I saw
> your words slowly work themself into a state of frustration, anger
> and defense. Which shows me that everything you said in the beginning
> (the thank you's) was all for show and once you got on a roll, your
> real emotions came out, which was that you were offended.
>
> There is nothing wrong with your feeling what you felt. But here is
> something I've learned from these groups. When I am offended by
> something a *stranger* did or said, I need to examine "Why". Why did
> that comment or remark from a complete stranger affect me that way?
> Usually (maybe even always) it has to do with me; my issue and my
> defensiveness when they held up that mirror. When this happens, I
> usually take a day...or several days...to allow what they
> said/did/wrote to sink in. I examine my feelings toward it, allow
> myself to question its validity and then I go back and reread it.
> Everytime I reread it, it doesn't seem as rude or offensive as I
> first thought. That's how I know it's *me*; their comment struck a
> chord in me that I wasn't ready to see.
>
> I would venture to say the same thing for you. Judging by the way you
> wrote, I was surprised to see you say you had been unschooling "for
> years". That wasn't the impression I got at all. Therefore I would be
> so bold as to say that the reason you felt offended over Sandra's
> comments were simply the fact that she held up a mirror; maybe she
> even showed you that your desire for your daughter to learn piano was
> *your* desire and not your daughter's. Maybe she showed you, as an
> unschooler, that what you were doing was harmful more than helpful to
> your unschooling. I don't know.
>
> But I - and most everyone here - does know that many, many people
> come on these boards thinking they get it, thinking they are full-
> fledged unschoolers, when they really don't get it. Or they really do
> get it but are ignoring it to accomplish what they want. And since
> these boards are here to help people "get it" and since we only have
> your descriptions to go off of, we're going to take your words at
> face value which sometimes looks to us like you don't get it, and
> we're going to do what we're here to do, which is help you "get it".
>
> What else can we do? It's kind of hard to presume something other
> than what is stated...and to not help would make this board useless.
>
> One more thing: I was one of those people who was "offended" by
> Sandra awhile back. That's because she is upfront and honest and
> immediately holds up a mirror and I wasn't used to that nor was I
> ready to see what the reflection staring back at me. Awhile ago I
> went back and reread some things that had been written to me months
> later and laughed because they were in no way, shape or form
> offensive! I was only offended because it was *my* issue.
>
> I for one appreciate Sandra keeping this board on topic and I also
> appreciate her holding up that mirror on occasion.
>
> My point of all this long-windedness is to say *from my perspective*,
> the only rudeness I saw was coming from your and Barbara's replies.
> And the only haughtiness I witnessed, was Barbara implying "we" as a
> group don't respect Sandra. *I* certainly respect Sandra and all the
> other veteran unschoolers on this board. Without them my family would
> probbly still be in shambles. Because of them, our lives are
> infinitely enriched with laughter and connection and love. I owe them
> an awful lot for their "rudeness".
>
> ~ Tara
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

I honestly had the same questions that Sandra had. I hadn't responded
to the thread here because she beat me to it and I was waiting for the
reply to the questions to give an answer to your piano playing issue.

I trully think that more often than not, when a 5 yr old asks for
lessons its because they don't see another easier option. That would
be our job as the parent. I think a 5 yr old that asks for piano
lessons or any lesson really just wants to play the piano or dance
around the living room. Not always, but usually.

Sandra Dodd

-=-> If my 8yr old decides he wants to learn multiplication, I know this
> is not the group to come for. There are other groups/resources for
> that. This group is to help me understand my child and the way he
> grows. Again, that's the purpose of this group.-=-

But we could talk you out of a worry about it, and tell you how some
of our kids learned about multiplication, in real-life ways. And
would DEFINITELY send this link:

http://sandradodd.com/timestables

-=-I do see the value of continuing on this list, so I hope Sandra
will "let me through". -=-

You can stay, but don't misquote me and try not to throw a Donald
Duck fit if you think someone has been unfairly questioned.
Questions and examination are what learning is all about.

Joyce wrote this wonderful little description a few years ago about
why the list isn't about individuals:


The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")

Joyce
==================================

It's also why I don't like cross posting. It's too often like
someone shooting a golf ball onto the baseball field, and they get
pissed if one of our pitchers throws it back and hits them.

-=-Until then, I appreciate a spirit of cooperation and hope this is
that kind of place. I wouldn't be interested in remaining if it
wasn't.-=-

It would be a waste to be hoping the list is anything it hasn't been
for the past many years. I hope you'll find it useful, but if you
don't, it's okay for you to leave quietly without slamming the door.

Sandra

MrsStranahan

> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Jenny C <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
> >
> > I trully think that more often than not, when a 5 yr old asks for
> > lessons its because they don't see another easier option. That would
> > be our job as the parent. I think a 5 yr old that asks for piano
> > lessons or any lesson really just wants to play the piano or dance
> > around the living room. Not always, but usually.
>

Today while in the car going to the park Jack, my 6 yr old said he
wanted to go to school. I was a surprised he'd said that, it's not
something he has said before and he's a pretty busy, happy kid. I
asked why and he said because he wanted to go to science class to do
experiments. This morning we had been playing with baking soda,
vinegar, dish soap and warm water in a soda bottle after he had asked
to make a volcano. He had a lot of fun with it and wanted to mix up
more stuff but we used up all the baking soda. (It erupted all the way
up the wall! It was so cool! Jack was laughing his head off.)

I think what he was doing is what Jenny C described .. he wants more
time mixing stuff not actually asking to go to school.

I found a couple of cool sites about science so I'm going to read
through them and find more stuff we can do. And I am going to go buy
more baking soda.

Lauren

diana jenner

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:16 PM, tamara martinez <fleur-de-lis@...>
wrote:

> Dear Ms. Dodd,
> Thanks for your response and for your suggestions. Yours, like everyone
> else's are very much appreciated as I brought up this question to this list
> and other unschooling lists to get the support from other unschooling
> families like ourselves. Having said this, I'm not exactly sure what the
> problem is with my post. I am still unclear as to why it is considered wrong
> to cross post to this list...? I have to disagree with your statement:
>
> "This wasn't a good list to come to for advice on "teaching."
>











As a very long time subscriber, I am *so* glad Sandra works hard to keep
this list Focused on Unschooling. I have thousands of websites I *could*
visit, were I interested in *teaching* -- I'm not, so I keep myself where
that kind of advice is not doled out. This list is different than other
lists and I like the feel of it here -- I can't go somewhere else and get
the same information/insight. I don't appreciate seeing the same exact post
on all of my lists either. So thanks Sandra, once again, for reminding us
why I'm *here* and not somewhere else :)

On the contrary, this was a wonderful list to come to for advice. Look at
> how many kind and very helpful replies I received compared to yours. Not
> only that, but I was able to benefit from what others shared about their own
> unschooling experiences. Nowhere in my post did I mention anything about
> wanting information on how to "teach" my daughter. I only asked for simple
> book & sheet music suggestions. Not knowing I'd have to defend my request
> with all the why's & why not's about my family's personal business in order
> to get a kind and helpful response,
>










If you're at all familiar with the vibe of this list, you know the most of
us who post share the whys and why nots and our family's "personal business"
in order for the advice-givers to know the context out of which we are
asking for perspective. (i.e. knowing Hayden's dad has died, allows those
who might say "what about dad?" to know it's not applicable to us)

I find too, the advice I immediately label as unkind or unhelpful sits with
me much longer than the statements that make me say "oh yeah, I'm right"...
the longer I sit with the uncomfortable ideas, the more I realize *those*
are the ones that are gonna force me to shift my perspective. I try them on
like a new shirt and see how they fit... more times than not, the painful
advice becomes the BEST advice.


> but the reason I am asking for simple books is because my daughter happens
> to love books and she loves learning from books. Because she's so proud of
> herself for having taught herself to read, she wants to read books about
> learning to play the piano. Go figure that it's now my mission to find her
> some.
>






It's also your mission to show her the world *beyond* books (i.e. Kelli's
post about her daughters) that there is an infinite supply of information
*elsewhere* as well. That's the nudge you're feeling.

(snip)
> Would you shun the very idea of books and classes just because they're not
> "unschooly" enough, therefore depriving your child of possibly discovering
> another way to learn just because *you* disapprove of it? How sad.
>






Are you rejecting advice to open your world (and your view of *teaching* and
*learning from books*) because you disapprove of Sandra's tone?? Rhetorical
question, one to chew on...

Why do you even question whether my daughter *wants* to take piano lessons
> or not? I feel that your questioning her desire is insulting to me. Of
> course she wants to take lessons. We, like most unschoolers I know, allow
> our children to direct their own education.
>






You didn't answer the question when it was asked. I was waiting to give
advice based on your answer to that question. Is your daughter (at 5)
convinced she needs a teacher and a book to be able to play piano? It's a
valuable question and it helps give us insight into your thought process so
the advice is applicable to you. I can't see how helping us to custom tailor
our responses is a bad thing...


> Again, your questioning of my use of the word "impossible" is extremely
> insulting and downright haughty. Why do you assume that you can talk to
> people that way? You do not even know me. I am aware of how I use my words,
> and "impossible" was the word I intended to use. It *is* impossible to take
> her 50 miles away to a piano lesson when gas and the lessons themselves
> might compromise our having groceries for the rest of our family or paying
> our bills that month. There are such things as financial obligations. And it
> just so happens Ms. Dodd, that our daughter does need Physical Therapy,
> Speech Therapy, and Occupational Therapy, three days a week for which we
> drive an hour to and an hour from for one hour of each therapy, every single
> week. We also drive her forty minutes away for ballet classes every week.
> Maybe you need to look at your own definition of "impossible".
>














Shifting one's thought processes away from *impossible* to *POSSIBLE* is a
huge step in understanding, not only unschooling, but life itself. It's a
tough one, I know, I'm there on a regular basis. i.e. I would LOVE to say to
my son "It's impossible for us to get a dog" because I don't want to do the
work involved in us becoming dog owners. Because I'm deeply committed to
what's important in his life, I've forced myself (yes it was a forceful
nudge that made me horrifically uncomfortable) to see what *is* possible and
how to shift our life to create an opening for a dog. I've had to face the
fears that have been quieted by my *impossible* thinking, when I shifted to
*possible* I had to one-by-one address those fears and send them packing.
Your above paragraph, in which I think you're defending your right to saying
*impossible,* shows that you're already doing things that are seemingly
*impossible* by your own definition.
I've yet to find one unschooling family without financial obligations. What
I see are lots of families uninhibited by limitations when their passions
require they do so.
I spent the past 7 years as a single parent on a small monthly stipend.
Single mamas everywhere find it *impossible* to do lots of thing with their
kids that I found absolutely *POSSIBLE* (i.e. cross-country travels,
conferences, gaming equipment, etc) because I choose to see life this way.
It really *is* all about perspective.

(snipped the diatribe)
>
>
>

Personally, I don't subscribe here to hear folks whine about Sandra (I think
there are actual lists who have that as their purpose, I don't go there
either). I'm here because (on line and IRL) her advice has changed my world
forever. There is not enough gold on this planet to repay her for the
healing in me she induced (and not always (ever??) with sunshine and
rainbows :::vbg:::) so that I could live joyfully with my family *in the
NOW*
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I found a couple of cool sites about science so I'm going to read
through them and find more stuff we can do. And I am going to go buy
more baking soda.-=-



I bet YouTube has lots of demos of things, and buildings being blown
up and balloons full of various gasses being popped and that.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 3:00 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-I found a couple of cool sites about science so I'm going to read
>
> through them and find more stuff we can do. And I am going to go buy
> more baking soda.-=-
>
> I bet YouTube has lots of demos of things, and buildings being blown
> up and balloons full of various gasses being popped and that.
>
>
>
>


Mentos and diet coke!!!!!!!!
(but not in your mouth!! there's a video about what happens when you do
that, too :::beg:::)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cory and Amy Nelson

This thread has me thinking a lot about my oldest daughter's
experiences with the piano. Quick intro since I'm not sure that I've
ever posted on this list before - I have three children: Accalia is
8, Cole is 5 and Ella is 2. None have been in school. Baby #4 is due
to arrive in August. We live in extreme southeastern South Dakota.

Growing up, I took traditional piano lessons (scales, chords,
required practices, etc.) for 12 years. We've always had an upright
piano in our house (one that survived the fallfrom the back of the
truck onto the highway as we were bringing it home), and Accalia
started showing interest in playing it two or three years ago. She
would ask me how to play certain songs and wanted me to write them
down for her. Since she didn't know how to read music, I put
different colored stickers on the keys and copied that color code on
to a piece of paper. Then it seemed to transition to where she'd ask
me to write down songs for her using numbers (not proper fingering
but the order of the notes starting with Middle C as "1". We had our
own code figured out for sharps, flats, bass clef and octaves higher
than that first one. Again it transitioned to where she started
asking me to write down songs using the names of the notes, and
that's what she does now. I've also seen (and heard) her playing new
songs from the various books we have, so she's also started to pick
up on reading notes. One of her favorite things to do is to sit at
the piano and compose her own songs, writing them down to keep in a
folder.

If Accalia would ever ask to take piano lessons, it's certainly
something we'd be glad to let her try, but I can't imagine what
benefit she would have had taking lessons from the start when she's
been playing what she wants to from the very beginning. :-)

Amy
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99), Cole (9/03/02), Ella (10/29/05) and baby
EDD 8/19/08
http://thissideofsomewhere.blogspot.com/

"We want the spring to come and the winter to pass. We want whoever
to call or not call, a letter, a kiss--we want more and more and then
more of it. But there are moments, walking, when I catch a glimpse of
myself in the window glass, say, the window of the corner video
store, and I'm gripped by a cherishing so deep for my own blowing
hair, chapped face, and unbuttoned coat that I'm speechless: I am
living...." --Marie Howe



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

MrsStranahan

Thanks! I hadn't thought of doing searches on youtube for him.

We watched some mentos and diet coke videos and one reminded me of The
Blue Man Group, Jack started dancing to that one. And then we watched
a couple of videos with real volcanoes erupting. When he asked to make
a volcano I hadn't thought of showing him a real one. Doh. He thought
the lava paths were cool.

Lauren

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 4:11 PM, diana jenner <hahamommy@...> wrote:
> >
> > I bet YouTube has lots of demos of things, and buildings being blown
> > up and balloons full of various gasses being popped and that.
> >
> Mentos and diet coke!!!!!!!!
> (but not in your mouth!! there's a video about what happens when you do
> that, too :::beg:::)
>
> --
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Alyson

My children (9 and 6) have enjoyed plonking around on the piano since
toddlerhood. When they wanted to learn songs I ordered Mrs Stewart's
piano lessons from www.fun-books.com, mostly because of John Holt's
testimonial.

The unique thing about this program is that different scales are
learned only by interval and fingering, not specifically by note name.
I had a terrible memory for note names and always struggled with the
"hard" keys (what's sharp? what's flat? ack).

In helping the kids get started with playing numbered songs in this
program I learned something I didn't consciously realize (or at least,
did not consciously remember) despite my 13 years of playing: when
you set the supplied cardboard fingering template over the keys, no
matter which starting note finger 1 goes on, the interval between that
and finger 2, 3, 4, etc., is the same. So by moving the template
along the keyboard the children (and I!) could play any of the
supplied songs in any key, even the "hard" keys. We spent hours over
several days playing the songs (all numbered keys) in multiple keys.
There's a template for bass clef chord accompaniments, too.

We haven't worked through the "lesson" part of the program, but the
kids really enjoy playing in the song book (I wouldn't have understood
the song book without the lesson book which has the fingering
templates). Some weeks they play through the songbook several times,
other weeks they ignore it completely.

I'm glad the Phonics4Piano website was posted because it looks like
that program uses numbered songs, too - I'm going to get some
songbooks from them so we can increase our repertoire without my
having to plonk it out and write it out.

graberamy

I found a couple of cool sites about science so I'm going to read
> through them and find more stuff we can do. And I am going to go buy
> more baking soda.
>

If he likes explosions, try mentos in soda (different soda's have
different size explosions!)...be outside!

amy g
iowa

--- In [email protected], MrsStranahan <mrsstranahan@...>
wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Jenny C <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I trully think that more often than not, when a 5 yr old asks for
> > > lessons its because they don't see another easier option. That would
> > > be our job as the parent. I think a 5 yr old that asks for piano
> > > lessons or any lesson really just wants to play the piano or dance
> > > around the living room. Not always, but usually.
> >
>
> Today while in the car going to the park Jack, my 6 yr old said he
> wanted to go to school. I was a surprised he'd said that, it's not
> something he has said before and he's a pretty busy, happy kid. I
> asked why and he said because he wanted to go to science class to do
> experiments. This morning we had been playing with baking soda,
> vinegar, dish soap and warm water in a soda bottle after he had asked
> to make a volcano. He had a lot of fun with it and wanted to mix up
> more stuff but we used up all the baking soda. (It erupted all the way
> up the wall! It was so cool! Jack was laughing his head off.)
>
> I think what he was doing is what Jenny C described .. he wants more
> time mixing stuff not actually asking to go to school.
>
>
> Lauren
>

graberamy

Sorry for posting this too...that's what I get for not finishing my
digest! I'll say we'd second the mentos explosions!!

amy g
iowa

--- In [email protected], "diana jenner" <hahamommy@...>
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 3:00 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> > -=-I found a couple of cool sites about science so I'm going to read
> >
> > through them and find more stuff we can do. And I am going to go buy
> > more baking soda.-=-
> >
> > I bet YouTube has lots of demos of things, and buildings being blown
> > up and balloons full of various gasses being popped and that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>