my 2yo and no bedtime...little help please?
serendipitymama
So, my 2yo has never had any sort of bedtime or bedtime routine. She
was nursed until she self-weaned at 20months, and we have a family bed
which includes our 6yo. She's always just come to me when she was
tired and nursed to sleep or I'd hold her and she'd fall asleep and I
take her to bed at some point. Well, my ds has never had a bed "time"
but starting when he was 5 we would usher him to bed at some point (in
the family bed) but dh, dd and I would still be up in the livingroom.
About 3 months ago we lifted bedtime restrictions. The problem is that
my ds and dd want to stay up late, which is fine with me, but they
don't want to stay out in the livingroom alone. So we've been letting
them come in the family bed and put a movie on in there. Well this is
meaning that dh and I are getting very little sleep. The movie is
quiet enough not to bother us but the kids are arguing about one
getting in front of the other, or they are eating food noisily, or one
touched the other one, or 2yo is jumping and climbing all over, or
they need something to eat or drink but wont go to the kitchen alone,
etc. It would be easier with my 6yo because I can tell him 'look, it's
your choice to stay up, but you can't make us stay up too' but my dd
doesn't understand that. My dh really needs to sleep because he gets
up at 4:30am for work, and while I can sleep in, I really hate losing
half my day because I needed to sleep in until 11am to make up for not
sleeping at night.
how can I be respectful of their chosen sleep schedule without it
impeding on mine and dh's? if they want to stay up but end up coming
to bed solely because they don't want to be alone in the livingroom,
they aren't really getting that feeling of having control over
themselves, they feel like it's not *really* a choice.
any ideas? please?
are there resources for the radical side of 'unschooling' beginning
from toddlerhood?
P.S. Sandra and Pam, I saw you guys speak at HENA this weekend and
really enjoyed it. My husband was quite reassured afterwards and I was
really inspired. Thanks for coming!
was nursed until she self-weaned at 20months, and we have a family bed
which includes our 6yo. She's always just come to me when she was
tired and nursed to sleep or I'd hold her and she'd fall asleep and I
take her to bed at some point. Well, my ds has never had a bed "time"
but starting when he was 5 we would usher him to bed at some point (in
the family bed) but dh, dd and I would still be up in the livingroom.
About 3 months ago we lifted bedtime restrictions. The problem is that
my ds and dd want to stay up late, which is fine with me, but they
don't want to stay out in the livingroom alone. So we've been letting
them come in the family bed and put a movie on in there. Well this is
meaning that dh and I are getting very little sleep. The movie is
quiet enough not to bother us but the kids are arguing about one
getting in front of the other, or they are eating food noisily, or one
touched the other one, or 2yo is jumping and climbing all over, or
they need something to eat or drink but wont go to the kitchen alone,
etc. It would be easier with my 6yo because I can tell him 'look, it's
your choice to stay up, but you can't make us stay up too' but my dd
doesn't understand that. My dh really needs to sleep because he gets
up at 4:30am for work, and while I can sleep in, I really hate losing
half my day because I needed to sleep in until 11am to make up for not
sleeping at night.
how can I be respectful of their chosen sleep schedule without it
impeding on mine and dh's? if they want to stay up but end up coming
to bed solely because they don't want to be alone in the livingroom,
they aren't really getting that feeling of having control over
themselves, they feel like it's not *really* a choice.
any ideas? please?
are there resources for the radical side of 'unschooling' beginning
from toddlerhood?
P.S. Sandra and Pam, I saw you guys speak at HENA this weekend and
really enjoyed it. My husband was quite reassured afterwards and I was
really inspired. Thanks for coming!
diana jenner
On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 7:41 PM, serendipitymama <granolapunk@...>
wrote:
How exactly are you losing 1/2 a day by sleeping & spending time with your
kids?? Are there dire things that *have to* (as in, someone will DIE if you
don't) be done before noon?? Can some of those things be done after
midnight? Can you get up at 8 and do some stuff and then take a nap before
the kids wake up?
I'd be careful of that kind of talk to a 6 year old -- how would you respond
to him if he copied your modeling? Perhaps looking at the situation as a
partnership instead of adversaries would help -- he has needs (they have)
and he's turning to the most important human with far more life experience
to help those needs get met. Of course he can't *make you* --it sure would
be nice if you just *did it* because you love him enough to let go of
whatever selfish thought is stopping you from really connecting. (not that
selfish thoughts are inherently bad, they should definitely be well examined
before acting upon them!)
interruption of small children; just as I assume you had many years before
they came. DH and I talked long and often about our marriage is forever and
babies are *not*!! Even when he became terminally ill, his/our focus
remained on our relationship/time with the kids.
When children and their needs (even the needs that conflict with the
grownups needs) are respected and honored as real and valid, they learn that
others' needs are to be respected and honored. (and no, this doesn't mean
you can do tit-for-tat with kids; you need patience to see it come to
fruition) -- writing this sentence makes me think of Sandra's kids and how
wonderful they have been/continue to be with my kid(s), who happen to be
years younger than them.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wrote:
> About 3 months ago we lifted bedtime restrictions. The problem is that***Doze on the sofa with them in the living room, so DH can sleep?
> my ds and dd want to stay up late, which is fine with me, but they
> don't want to stay out in the livingroom alone. So we've been letting
> them come in the family bed and put a movie on in there. Well this is
> meaning that dh and I are getting very little sleep. The movie is
> quiet enough not to bother us but the kids are arguing about one
> getting in front of the other, or they are eating food noisily, or one
> touched the other one, or 2yo is jumping and climbing all over, or
> they need something to eat or drink but wont go to the kitchen alone,
> etc. It would be easier with my 6yo because I can tell him 'look, it's
> your choice to stay up, but you can't make us stay up too' but my dd
> doesn't understand that. My dh really needs to sleep because he gets
> up at 4:30am for work, and while I can sleep in, I really hate losing
> half my day because I needed to sleep in until 11am to make up for not
> sleeping at night.
>
How exactly are you losing 1/2 a day by sleeping & spending time with your
kids?? Are there dire things that *have to* (as in, someone will DIE if you
don't) be done before noon?? Can some of those things be done after
midnight? Can you get up at 8 and do some stuff and then take a nap before
the kids wake up?
I'd be careful of that kind of talk to a 6 year old -- how would you respond
to him if he copied your modeling? Perhaps looking at the situation as a
partnership instead of adversaries would help -- he has needs (they have)
and he's turning to the most important human with far more life experience
to help those needs get met. Of course he can't *make you* --it sure would
be nice if you just *did it* because you love him enough to let go of
whatever selfish thought is stopping you from really connecting. (not that
selfish thoughts are inherently bad, they should definitely be well examined
before acting upon them!)
> how can I be respectful of their chosen sleep schedule without it***I promise you will have many, many years to sleep without the
> impeding on mine and dh's? if they want to stay up but end up coming
> to bed solely because they don't want to be alone in the livingroom,
> they aren't really getting that feeling of having control over
> themselves, they feel like it's not *really* a choice.
>
interruption of small children; just as I assume you had many years before
they came. DH and I talked long and often about our marriage is forever and
babies are *not*!! Even when he became terminally ill, his/our focus
remained on our relationship/time with the kids.
When children and their needs (even the needs that conflict with the
grownups needs) are respected and honored as real and valid, they learn that
others' needs are to be respected and honored. (and no, this doesn't mean
you can do tit-for-tat with kids; you need patience to see it come to
fruition) -- writing this sentence makes me think of Sandra's kids and how
wonderful they have been/continue to be with my kid(s), who happen to be
years younger than them.
> are there resources for the radical side of 'unschooling' beginning***Always Unschooled
> from toddlerhood?
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/
>--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ryan
Hi. We did a lot of these same things (my son is 7, daughter is 4,
and another son is due in May) - the family bed, no bedtimes, etc.
And it certainly wasn't always conducive to our sleep either.
We did several things to try to make sure everyone was able to get
some sleep but do it in ways that they enjoyed. One thing we'd do
whenever we were in one of those cycles where the kids kept wanting
to stay up later and later is that we'd put more of an emphasis on
our mornings. My wife and I would get up earlier and, sooner or
later, the kids would start getting up earlier as well in order to be
with us. Eventually, they came to enjoy the mornings together better
than the nights together, and since they were up at 7 they naturally
fell asleep earlier in the evening.
Reading to them also worked. We found that if we all went to bed
earlier and spent an hour or so reading, they'd almost invariable
fall asleep within an hour. They loved having us read to them so
much that they'd drop whatever else they were doing to crawl into bed
and hear (part of) a good book!
We also made sure that, even though we had a family bed where
everyone was welcome, they also had their own rooms where they could
sleep, play, watch TV, play games, etc. We tried to put a lot of
extra effort into making those spaces as interesting and fun as
possible and not to make the family bedroom too much of a playing
place.
Given that the new no routine routine has only been in place for
three months, it's still probably new to them and might take awhile
to sort itself out.
I write this with a smile since it's midnight and I just came down
from saying good night to my daughter, who loves to stay up late and
sleep late in the morning. My son usually gives up around 10:30 and
goes to bed. But we still have strange sleeping arrangements and
never know who will start or end up where. The last few nights my
son has wanted to sleep in our bed, possibly because he's a bit
anxious about the new baby. So he's slept there for the past two
nights and I've slept in his room. My daughter starts in her own bed
but usually ends up somewhere else.
Our goal now is to make sure that every room has a comfortable place
to sleep, because we never know where any of us will be come morning!
Ryan
--- In [email protected], "serendipitymama"
<granolapunk@...> wrote:
and another son is due in May) - the family bed, no bedtimes, etc.
And it certainly wasn't always conducive to our sleep either.
We did several things to try to make sure everyone was able to get
some sleep but do it in ways that they enjoyed. One thing we'd do
whenever we were in one of those cycles where the kids kept wanting
to stay up later and later is that we'd put more of an emphasis on
our mornings. My wife and I would get up earlier and, sooner or
later, the kids would start getting up earlier as well in order to be
with us. Eventually, they came to enjoy the mornings together better
than the nights together, and since they were up at 7 they naturally
fell asleep earlier in the evening.
Reading to them also worked. We found that if we all went to bed
earlier and spent an hour or so reading, they'd almost invariable
fall asleep within an hour. They loved having us read to them so
much that they'd drop whatever else they were doing to crawl into bed
and hear (part of) a good book!
We also made sure that, even though we had a family bed where
everyone was welcome, they also had their own rooms where they could
sleep, play, watch TV, play games, etc. We tried to put a lot of
extra effort into making those spaces as interesting and fun as
possible and not to make the family bedroom too much of a playing
place.
Given that the new no routine routine has only been in place for
three months, it's still probably new to them and might take awhile
to sort itself out.
I write this with a smile since it's midnight and I just came down
from saying good night to my daughter, who loves to stay up late and
sleep late in the morning. My son usually gives up around 10:30 and
goes to bed. But we still have strange sleeping arrangements and
never know who will start or end up where. The last few nights my
son has wanted to sleep in our bed, possibly because he's a bit
anxious about the new baby. So he's slept there for the past two
nights and I've slept in his room. My daughter starts in her own bed
but usually ends up somewhere else.
Our goal now is to make sure that every room has a comfortable place
to sleep, because we never know where any of us will be come morning!
Ryan
--- In [email protected], "serendipitymama"
<granolapunk@...> wrote:
>bed
>
>
> So, my 2yo has never had any sort of bedtime or bedtime routine. She
> was nursed until she self-weaned at 20months, and we have a family
> which includes our 6yo. She's always just come to me when she wasI
> tired and nursed to sleep or I'd hold her and she'd fall asleep and
> take her to bed at some point. Well, my ds has never had abed "time"
> but starting when he was 5 we would usher him to bed at some point(in
> the family bed) but dh, dd and I would still be up in thelivingroom.
>that
> About 3 months ago we lifted bedtime restrictions. The problem is
> my ds and dd want to stay up late, which is fine with me, but theyletting
> don't want to stay out in the livingroom alone. So we've been
> them come in the family bed and put a movie on in there. Well thisis
> meaning that dh and I are getting very little sleep. The movie isone
> quiet enough not to bother us but the kids are arguing about one
> getting in front of the other, or they are eating food noisily, or
> touched the other one, or 2yo is jumping and climbing all over, oralone,
> they need something to eat or drink but wont go to the kitchen
> etc. It would be easier with my 6yo because I can tell him 'look,it's
> your choice to stay up, but you can't make us stay up too' but my ddlosing
> doesn't understand that. My dh really needs to sleep because he gets
> up at 4:30am for work, and while I can sleep in, I really hate
> half my day because I needed to sleep in until 11am to make up fornot
> sleeping at night.was
>
> how can I be respectful of their chosen sleep schedule without it
> impeding on mine and dh's? if they want to stay up but end up coming
> to bed solely because they don't want to be alone in the livingroom,
> they aren't really getting that feeling of having control over
> themselves, they feel like it's not *really* a choice.
>
> any ideas? please?
>
> are there resources for the radical side of 'unschooling' beginning
> from toddlerhood?
>
>
> P.S. Sandra and Pam, I saw you guys speak at HENA this weekend and
> really enjoyed it. My husband was quite reassured afterwards and I
> really inspired. Thanks for coming!
>
Ryan
Diana
I loved what you said here about marriage being forever but babies
are not. That very thought helped me through a lot of sleepy days at
work! Now that both of the kids have their own rooms and their own
beds, which they took to with no prompting from us, I know that I
miss sleeping with them more than they miss sleeping with me.
Ryan
--- In [email protected], "diana jenner" <hahamommy@...>
wrote:
I loved what you said here about marriage being forever but babies
are not. That very thought helped me through a lot of sleepy days at
work! Now that both of the kids have their own rooms and their own
beds, which they took to with no prompting from us, I know that I
miss sleeping with them more than they miss sleeping with me.
Ryan
--- In [email protected], "diana jenner" <hahamommy@...>
wrote:
>is that
> On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 7:41 PM, serendipitymama <granolapunk@...>
> wrote:
>
> > About 3 months ago we lifted bedtime restrictions. The problem
> > my ds and dd want to stay up late, which is fine with me, but theyletting
> > don't want to stay out in the livingroom alone. So we've been
> > them come in the family bed and put a movie on in there. Wellthis is
> > meaning that dh and I are getting very little sleep. The movie isor one
> > quiet enough not to bother us but the kids are arguing about one
> > getting in front of the other, or they are eating food noisily,
> > touched the other one, or 2yo is jumping and climbing all over, oralone,
> > they need something to eat or drink but wont go to the kitchen
> > etc. It would be easier with my 6yo because I can tell him 'look,it's
> > your choice to stay up, but you can't make us stay up too' but mydd
> > doesn't understand that. My dh really needs to sleep because hegets
> > up at 4:30am for work, and while I can sleep in, I really hatelosing
> > half my day because I needed to sleep in until 11am to make upfor not
> > sleeping at night.with your
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ***Doze on the sofa with them in the living room, so DH can sleep?
> How exactly are you losing 1/2 a day by sleeping & spending time
> kids?? Are there dire things that *have to* (as in, someone willDIE if you
> don't) be done before noon?? Can some of those things be done afterbefore
> midnight? Can you get up at 8 and do some stuff and then take a nap
> the kids wake up?you respond
> I'd be careful of that kind of talk to a 6 year old -- how would
> to him if he copied your modeling? Perhaps looking at the situationas a
> partnership instead of adversaries would help -- he has needs (theyhave)
> and he's turning to the most important human with far more lifeexperience
> to help those needs get met. Of course he can't *make you* --itsure would
> be nice if you just *did it* because you love him enough to let goof
> whatever selfish thought is stopping you from really connecting.(not that
> selfish thoughts are inherently bad, they should definitely be wellexamined
> before acting upon them!)coming
>
> > how can I be respectful of their chosen sleep schedule without it
> > impeding on mine and dh's? if they want to stay up but end up
> > to bed solely because they don't want to be alone in thelivingroom,
> > they aren't really getting that feeling of having control overbefore
> > themselves, they feel like it's not *really* a choice.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ***I promise you will have many, many years to sleep without the
> interruption of small children; just as I assume you had many years
> they came. DH and I talked long and often about our marriage isforever and
> babies are *not*!! Even when he became terminally ill, his/our focuslearn that
> remained on our relationship/time with the kids.
> When children and their needs (even the needs that conflict with the
> grownups needs) are respected and honored as real and valid, they
> others' needs are to be respected and honored. (and no, thisdoesn't mean
> you can do tit-for-tat with kids; you need patience to see it cometo
> fruition) -- writing this sentence makes me think of Sandra's kidsand how
> wonderful they have been/continue to be with my kid(s), who happento be
> years younger than them.beginning
>
> > are there resources for the radical side of 'unschooling'
> > from toddlerhood?
> >
>
>
>
>
> ***Always Unschooled
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/
>
> >
> --
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Wendy S.
On Mar 3, 2008, at 10:41 PM, serendipitymama wrote:
yours), so I've explained that to Shelby (9) for a long time. "It's
ok if you want to stay up, but we can't keep Daddy awake, because he
has to get up." When Shelby is on a late night schedule, we sleep in
her room. We have a queen size bed in there so we're comfy. I wish I
had done this years ago...including when she was a baby. Having this
other room has removed so much conflict from the sleep pattern issue.
This is going to be a little disjointed, so just try to go with
me....Every day my mother, who lives next door, comes over for lunch
around 1. Some days we're just making it downstairs, so it's really
breakfast. I found out that Shelby likes to stay up late to hang out
with me. (What a spectacular reason to stay up!) But I noticed that I
wasn't getting the things that "need to get done" done, because once
my mom comes over I don't get a chance to do those things. (I'd
rather spend time with people I love than do those "important"
things.) So, lately, I've been getting up earlier and doing my stuff
so that I can hang out with my mom and then Shelby without
distractions. And lo and behold, we've been going to bed earlier.
The late night thing really is all about getting time with me. :-) By
the way, earlier is like 1 or 2 a.m. LOL
As far as "adult" time with my hubby....well, that could be more
frequent, but we both know that Shelby is more important, and we'll
get our chance again. :-)
And I second Diana's recommendation for Always Unschooled. It's a
fabulous list!!
Wendy S. in GA
Mom to Shelby, Age 9
http://ourjourneyfantastic.blogspot.com/
Come to the Trust Birth Conference!
March 7-9, 2008 in Redondo Beach, California
www.trustbirthconference.com
****************
BIRTH IS SAFE, INTERVENTION IS RISKY
http://www.trustbirth.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> how can I be respectful of their chosen sleep schedule without itIn our house, dh also gets up to go to work (not nearly as early as
> impeding on mine and dh's? if they want to stay up but end up coming
> to bed solely because they don't want to be alone in the livingroom,
> they aren't really getting that feeling of having control over
> themselves, they feel like it's not *really* a choice.
yours), so I've explained that to Shelby (9) for a long time. "It's
ok if you want to stay up, but we can't keep Daddy awake, because he
has to get up." When Shelby is on a late night schedule, we sleep in
her room. We have a queen size bed in there so we're comfy. I wish I
had done this years ago...including when she was a baby. Having this
other room has removed so much conflict from the sleep pattern issue.
This is going to be a little disjointed, so just try to go with
me....Every day my mother, who lives next door, comes over for lunch
around 1. Some days we're just making it downstairs, so it's really
breakfast. I found out that Shelby likes to stay up late to hang out
with me. (What a spectacular reason to stay up!) But I noticed that I
wasn't getting the things that "need to get done" done, because once
my mom comes over I don't get a chance to do those things. (I'd
rather spend time with people I love than do those "important"
things.) So, lately, I've been getting up earlier and doing my stuff
so that I can hang out with my mom and then Shelby without
distractions. And lo and behold, we've been going to bed earlier.
The late night thing really is all about getting time with me. :-) By
the way, earlier is like 1 or 2 a.m. LOL
As far as "adult" time with my hubby....well, that could be more
frequent, but we both know that Shelby is more important, and we'll
get our chance again. :-)
And I second Diana's recommendation for Always Unschooled. It's a
fabulous list!!
Wendy S. in GA
Mom to Shelby, Age 9
http://ourjourneyfantastic.blogspot.com/
Come to the Trust Birth Conference!
March 7-9, 2008 in Redondo Beach, California
www.trustbirthconference.com
****************
BIRTH IS SAFE, INTERVENTION IS RISKY
http://www.trustbirth.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-ut you can't make us stay up too' but my dd
doesn't understand that. My dh really needs to sleep because he gets
up at 4:30am for work, and while I can sleep in, I really hate losing
half my day because I needed to sleep in until 11am to make up for not
sleeping at night.-=-
You could be in the room where they're watching TV; that's one option.
When Kirby wasn't sleepy and wanted to watch a video, the deal in
advance was he could stay up IF he didn't make noise, if he didn't
wake anyone else up. As far as I know, I was the first one to talk
about letting Kirby stay up late, which gradually turned to the
widespread belief that unschooling required "no bedtimes."
So lots of families seem to be confused and suffering and blaming
other unschoolers, or "unschooling."
http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
I never said "no bedtime." I said you can stay up IF, and when "if"
wasn't met, they needed to go to bed.
It seems many families have taken from that "You never have to go to
bed."
Your husband's need to sleep is more important than unschooling is.
That's a non-negotiable thing. Yes, if he were a single parent he
would need to get up and take care of kids, but he's NOT a single
parent. He's the working partner and YOU-the-mom are the nighttime
parent. Get the kids out of his room.
When Kirby was two and woke up and wasn't at all sleepy and I was too
sleepy to stay up with him because I was pregnant, I would put him in
the high chair in front of a six-hour video of Disney movies or
Warner Brothers cartoons. I'd give him food, drink, a little pillow,
a baby blanket, and go back to bed. In the morning he would be
asleep on the tray with the pillow. That happened many times. But
he wasn't running around the house making noise. We made a deal and
he kept it, knowing the alternative was being in the bed. And each
time was "okay, yes, this time okay," not "You have the absolute
right to get up and be attended to in any way, at any moment."
He always slept enough. He rarely napped anytime in his life. I
never "made them" nap, and if he napped it was because he was tired.
-=-how can I be respectful of their chosen sleep schedule without it
impeding on mine and dh's?-=-
I think they're too little to "choose a sleep schedule," and I don't
think they have done that. I think they're responding to
restrictions, and that you're responding to having restricted by NOT
restricting.
Everything should have some basis in what's good for the family and
what's rational and what's considerate. THAT should come before
"freedom" if freedom means the freedom to be rude and disruptive.
-=-they don't want to be alone in the livingroom, they aren't really
getting that feeling of having control over themselves, they feel
like it's not *really* a choice. -=-
Where did the "control over themselves" phrase come from? I'm
wondering, because I'm seeing more and more odd and harmful ideas
coming across the list here. If it's on my site, I want to put a
disclaimer up there, or clarify it. If it's from another list that
was ever associated with this one, I might want to write to the list
owner and ask her to cease and desist (or have balancing information).
YOU the mom have to have "control" over the peace of your home. Your
husband's sleep and your two year old's desire to be awake because a
five year old is awake are two very, very different things and
shouldn't be anywhere near each other at night.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
doesn't understand that. My dh really needs to sleep because he gets
up at 4:30am for work, and while I can sleep in, I really hate losing
half my day because I needed to sleep in until 11am to make up for not
sleeping at night.-=-
You could be in the room where they're watching TV; that's one option.
When Kirby wasn't sleepy and wanted to watch a video, the deal in
advance was he could stay up IF he didn't make noise, if he didn't
wake anyone else up. As far as I know, I was the first one to talk
about letting Kirby stay up late, which gradually turned to the
widespread belief that unschooling required "no bedtimes."
So lots of families seem to be confused and suffering and blaming
other unschoolers, or "unschooling."
http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
I never said "no bedtime." I said you can stay up IF, and when "if"
wasn't met, they needed to go to bed.
It seems many families have taken from that "You never have to go to
bed."
Your husband's need to sleep is more important than unschooling is.
That's a non-negotiable thing. Yes, if he were a single parent he
would need to get up and take care of kids, but he's NOT a single
parent. He's the working partner and YOU-the-mom are the nighttime
parent. Get the kids out of his room.
When Kirby was two and woke up and wasn't at all sleepy and I was too
sleepy to stay up with him because I was pregnant, I would put him in
the high chair in front of a six-hour video of Disney movies or
Warner Brothers cartoons. I'd give him food, drink, a little pillow,
a baby blanket, and go back to bed. In the morning he would be
asleep on the tray with the pillow. That happened many times. But
he wasn't running around the house making noise. We made a deal and
he kept it, knowing the alternative was being in the bed. And each
time was "okay, yes, this time okay," not "You have the absolute
right to get up and be attended to in any way, at any moment."
He always slept enough. He rarely napped anytime in his life. I
never "made them" nap, and if he napped it was because he was tired.
-=-how can I be respectful of their chosen sleep schedule without it
impeding on mine and dh's?-=-
I think they're too little to "choose a sleep schedule," and I don't
think they have done that. I think they're responding to
restrictions, and that you're responding to having restricted by NOT
restricting.
Everything should have some basis in what's good for the family and
what's rational and what's considerate. THAT should come before
"freedom" if freedom means the freedom to be rude and disruptive.
-=-they don't want to be alone in the livingroom, they aren't really
getting that feeling of having control over themselves, they feel
like it's not *really* a choice. -=-
Where did the "control over themselves" phrase come from? I'm
wondering, because I'm seeing more and more odd and harmful ideas
coming across the list here. If it's on my site, I want to put a
disclaimer up there, or clarify it. If it's from another list that
was ever associated with this one, I might want to write to the list
owner and ask her to cease and desist (or have balancing information).
YOU the mom have to have "control" over the peace of your home. Your
husband's sleep and your two year old's desire to be awake because a
five year old is awake are two very, very different things and
shouldn't be anywhere near each other at night.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-are there resources for the radical side of 'unschooling' beginning
from toddlerhood? -=-
There is a list called Always Unschooled, but I am not on it and
can't personally speak to its clarity. I'm concerned about people
starting to refer to their lives as "RU" (I don't like that at all
for many reasons) and some lists are calling Unschooling "US" (which
sucks nineteen ways from Sunday).
Let's talk about mindful parenting. Let's talk about being
compassionate and peaceful. Let's talk about living by principles.
Then there's no need for separate resources based on the age of the
children.
----------------------------------I'm changing the subject only
slightly.--------------------------------
I am very concerned after the conference last weekend. It wasn't an
unschooling conference, but it did quite lean that direction. I
observed three families in which young children were behaving
horribly. I wouldn't want them at my house, though in one case I met
and really liked the parents. The other two I just saw at a
distance, so I honestly have NO CLUE who they were, so if I say
something here and the family in question is reading, just suck it
up. No confessions are requested and none are welcom. I don't
know who you are and it's fine. I want to talk about the problems,
not the people.
I saw a child hit a parent in the face, and the parent acted like it
was sweet and good.
I saw a child kick a father who was carrying another child and
pushing a stroller. He didn't respond negatively to having been kicked.
I saw a child kick a mother. Worse, a non-homeschooling friend of
mine saw it and mentioned it to me, and thought it was very bad.
All this reflects on unschooling itself, and not at all well. There
were people at the conference considering whether to be unschoolers.
No doubt some of them also saw such behavior, and they might not even
want to homeschool because of it.
Being respectful to a child can't possibly include creating or
condoning a situation in which he or she has to kick or hit to get a
parent's attention, nor one in which kicking and hitting are treated
as normal and good.
In light of last week's discussion about the interaction at Wendy's,
I will say that if ANY human being kicks me, I'm going to respond
negatively. If a child comes up and kicks me I'm not going to smile
and say "Oooh, hi. Where's your mom?" I would most likely take the
child strongly by the arm, establish eye contact and say "Don't ever
kick me again," and I would mean it. I would say "Don't kick
people. It's not okay."
Where did anyone get the idea that it was respectful to allow (or
require, or approve) kicking in the shins?
Is anyone *REALLY* using unschooling as an excuse to encourage
horrible behavior? Treating children like people involves helping
them understand how to act as people are expected to act.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
from toddlerhood? -=-
There is a list called Always Unschooled, but I am not on it and
can't personally speak to its clarity. I'm concerned about people
starting to refer to their lives as "RU" (I don't like that at all
for many reasons) and some lists are calling Unschooling "US" (which
sucks nineteen ways from Sunday).
Let's talk about mindful parenting. Let's talk about being
compassionate and peaceful. Let's talk about living by principles.
Then there's no need for separate resources based on the age of the
children.
----------------------------------I'm changing the subject only
slightly.--------------------------------
I am very concerned after the conference last weekend. It wasn't an
unschooling conference, but it did quite lean that direction. I
observed three families in which young children were behaving
horribly. I wouldn't want them at my house, though in one case I met
and really liked the parents. The other two I just saw at a
distance, so I honestly have NO CLUE who they were, so if I say
something here and the family in question is reading, just suck it
up. No confessions are requested and none are welcom. I don't
know who you are and it's fine. I want to talk about the problems,
not the people.
I saw a child hit a parent in the face, and the parent acted like it
was sweet and good.
I saw a child kick a father who was carrying another child and
pushing a stroller. He didn't respond negatively to having been kicked.
I saw a child kick a mother. Worse, a non-homeschooling friend of
mine saw it and mentioned it to me, and thought it was very bad.
All this reflects on unschooling itself, and not at all well. There
were people at the conference considering whether to be unschoolers.
No doubt some of them also saw such behavior, and they might not even
want to homeschool because of it.
Being respectful to a child can't possibly include creating or
condoning a situation in which he or she has to kick or hit to get a
parent's attention, nor one in which kicking and hitting are treated
as normal and good.
In light of last week's discussion about the interaction at Wendy's,
I will say that if ANY human being kicks me, I'm going to respond
negatively. If a child comes up and kicks me I'm not going to smile
and say "Oooh, hi. Where's your mom?" I would most likely take the
child strongly by the arm, establish eye contact and say "Don't ever
kick me again," and I would mean it. I would say "Don't kick
people. It's not okay."
Where did anyone get the idea that it was respectful to allow (or
require, or approve) kicking in the shins?
Is anyone *REALLY* using unschooling as an excuse to encourage
horrible behavior? Treating children like people involves helping
them understand how to act as people are expected to act.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Hsu
My kids are 4 & 2. They like to stay up late - my son has lately been
staying up all night. I work, and my husband stays home with the kids.
We're struggling with the sleep schedules too. There are times when my 4yo
is disruptive when others are sleeping (though most of the time he's not).
I'm curious about this statement in Sandra's post:
I never said "no bedtime." I said you can stay up IF, and when "if"
more disruptive (we all sleep in the same bed).
Maybe I'm misunderstanding - how do you follow through on the "ifs" in these
situations? My husband has been staying up a good chunk of the night with
our son, and this works ok when our daughter sleeps in, but if she's up
early then my husband feels like he's not getting enough sleep.
staying up all night. I work, and my husband stays home with the kids.
We're struggling with the sleep schedules too. There are times when my 4yo
is disruptive when others are sleeping (though most of the time he's not).
I'm curious about this statement in Sandra's post:
I never said "no bedtime." I said you can stay up IF, and when "if"
> wasn't met, they needed to go to bed.When we've tried to get him to bed when "ifs" aren''t met, and he's even
>
more disruptive (we all sleep in the same bed).
Maybe I'm misunderstanding - how do you follow through on the "ifs" in these
situations? My husband has been staying up a good chunk of the night with
our son, and this works ok when our daughter sleeps in, but if she's up
early then my husband feels like he's not getting enough sleep.
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> I never said "no bedtime." I said you can stay up IF, and when "if"
> wasn't met, they needed to go to bed.
>
> It seems many families have taken from that "You never have to go to
> bed."
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
donnakeeble
> Let's talk about mindful parenting. Let's talk about beingTHANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! This has been one of the problems I
> compassionate and peaceful. Let's talk about living by principles.
> Then there's no need for separate resources based on the age of the
> children.
>
> ----------------------------------I'm changing the subject only
> slightly.--------------------------------
>
> All this reflects on unschooling itself, and not at all well. There
> were people at the conference considering whether to be unschoolers.
> No doubt some of them also saw such behavior, and they might not even
> want to homeschool because of it.
have had to struggle with as I try to understand what is unschooling
and what is not. I swear I read somewhere that kids were climbing the
walls of the conference center at L&L last year - let me tell you,
stuff like that keeps me away from large unschooling gatherings. I
have a "spirited child" and I cannot imagine allowing him or any of my
children to climb the decorative exterior of any building.... I quite
enjoyed a campout last summer with 20 or so unschooling families, but
I am afraid that some of the larger events could become somewhat of an
anything goes free for all. I hope I am mistaken.
I am still not completely clear where unschooling, radical
unschooling, and consensual living intersect. The math geek in me is
thinking Venn Diagram!! There are all of these labels tossed around
and it sounds so appealing to grab one and try to live it rather than
live first and see what you are drawn to.
>I do not think it is used as an excuse rather it just is this desire
> Being respectful to a child can't possibly include creating or
> condoning a situation in which he or she has to kick or hit to get a
> parent's attention, nor one in which kicking and hitting are treated
> as normal and good.
>
> In light of last week's discussion about the interaction at Wendy's,
> I will say that if ANY human being kicks me, I'm going to respond
> negatively. If a child comes up and kicks me I'm not going to smile
> and say "Oooh, hi. Where's your mom?" I would most likely take the
> child strongly by the arm, establish eye contact and say "Don't ever
> kick me again," and I would mean it. I would say "Don't kick
> people. It's not okay."
>
> Where did anyone get the idea that it was respectful to allow (or
> require, or approve) kicking in the shins?
>
> Is anyone *REALLY* using unschooling as an excuse to encourage
> horrible behavior? Treating children like people involves helping
> them understand how to act as people are expected to act.
to "do it right". Of course I want to be kinder, calmer, and rational
- that's easier said than done. Many of us coming from a traditional
public schooled background will do the homework and read the books and
apply what we think we have learned. We will pat ourselves on the
back for following the unschooling recipe. Unfortunately, concepts
become misunderstood or muddied and bits get lost in the translation.
Common sense gets left aside perhaps.
Donna
Joanna Murphy
Sandra--
Thank you for this very clear post.
The friend that first used the word "unschool" to me and shared her resources had a son
that would eat food all over all of our houses, dropping it and getting sticky, dirty
handprints everywhere. And then she would challenge us, in conversations about other
people not allowing their children enough "freedom," to say anything negative about it.
The last straw came for me when her son went through a period of intense anger (he also
had un-addressed speech issues in which you couldn't understand any of his words at
six--so a possible source of his anger) and began to attack children that touched
anything he thought of as his, or that didn't agree with him about how a game should go.
When I brought it up, she didn't seem to know what I was talking about, although I could
predict, and even head off some, of his attacks and outbursts. In conversation with her it
was apparent that she didn't want to curtail his freedom or cause him to feel bad about his
behavior--all at the expense of other people's belongings and safety for their children.
We eventually ended the friendship when it became clear that nothing would change.
Fortunately I was able to separate what looked like neglect to me from the concepts of
unschooling--but it took me awhile since she was my first "mentor." I am so glad to have
found better ones--including my own common sense! It was confusing for me at first--I
seem to have to learn many things the hard way--and I watched for too long, as limits
were pushed way beyond comfort. It was a great lesson for me in the end in what it can
really mean to stand up for my children--not just against an unfriendly or unkind
stranger, but to a destructive or dangerous influence in our lives disguised as a friend.
Those can be much more insidious than a one time encounter, because of how I had
internalized things for a while that weren't good for my kids.
I hope this post wasn't too long into the personal--but I thought in light of the behavior
you witnessed my experience might not be all that uncommon.
Joanna
Thank you for this very clear post.
The friend that first used the word "unschool" to me and shared her resources had a son
that would eat food all over all of our houses, dropping it and getting sticky, dirty
handprints everywhere. And then she would challenge us, in conversations about other
people not allowing their children enough "freedom," to say anything negative about it.
The last straw came for me when her son went through a period of intense anger (he also
had un-addressed speech issues in which you couldn't understand any of his words at
six--so a possible source of his anger) and began to attack children that touched
anything he thought of as his, or that didn't agree with him about how a game should go.
When I brought it up, she didn't seem to know what I was talking about, although I could
predict, and even head off some, of his attacks and outbursts. In conversation with her it
was apparent that she didn't want to curtail his freedom or cause him to feel bad about his
behavior--all at the expense of other people's belongings and safety for their children.
We eventually ended the friendship when it became clear that nothing would change.
Fortunately I was able to separate what looked like neglect to me from the concepts of
unschooling--but it took me awhile since she was my first "mentor." I am so glad to have
found better ones--including my own common sense! It was confusing for me at first--I
seem to have to learn many things the hard way--and I watched for too long, as limits
were pushed way beyond comfort. It was a great lesson for me in the end in what it can
really mean to stand up for my children--not just against an unfriendly or unkind
stranger, but to a destructive or dangerous influence in our lives disguised as a friend.
Those can be much more insidious than a one time encounter, because of how I had
internalized things for a while that weren't good for my kids.
I hope this post wasn't too long into the personal--but I thought in light of the behavior
you witnessed my experience might not be all that uncommon.
Joanna
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< I swear I read somewhere that kids were climbing the
could be hurt by the kids climbing it. Truly it would have taken the
energetic use of a sledgehammer to damage this particular wall. That's why
it was ok. It couldn't be damaged by their activity. All the parents were
right there too.
Just so you know.
<<<< The math geek in me is
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> walls of the conference center at L&L last year - let me tell you,It wasn't a decorative wall. It was one storey of bumpy stone, and in no way
> stuff like that keeps me away from large unschooling gatherings. I
> have a "spirited child" and I cannot imagine allowing him or any of my
> children to climb the decorative exterior of any building>>>>
could be hurt by the kids climbing it. Truly it would have taken the
energetic use of a sledgehammer to damage this particular wall. That's why
it was ok. It couldn't be damaged by their activity. All the parents were
right there too.
Just so you know.
<<<< The math geek in me is
> thinking Venn Diagram!! >>>>I've been using the Venn Diagram analogy for years. It's been very helpful.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
This came to me by private mail. I'm sending it to the list assuming
that was an error. I'm leaving the name off in case it wasn't an error.
------------------------------
I think the adults have the right to the best quality sleep possible
and the
children must be secondary. Adults must drive 6000lb cars through
traffic
while looking for addresses and tuning out the crying baby in the
back. Life
and limb is riding on the quick reflexes of the adult.
Adults must be productive, creative and attentive at their jobs so
they can
provide for their children. In these days of cost cutting, it is more
important than ever to be at your best on the job.
I'm studying to be a marriage therapist with a specialization in sex
therapy, and the reality is that most people don't get enough sleep
or sex.
Poor sleep makes for bad sex, and that has a psychological and
physiological
effect on the marriage. Recent studies have shown that semen
actually has
an anti-depressant effect for the woman. Maybe because I have 7
children
and learned that I was able to cheat sleep for 5 years then 8 years, but
then it got ridiculous, and we had to set better physical boundaries
so that
we all didn't collapse. A large household of small children requires
stable, well-rested parents. The opposite of that is emotional chaos.
Now my married 22 year old daughter has a dog that keeps her awake at
night,
and sleeps sideways on their bed. We tell them that they better
learn to
figure that out before they have kids :)
-------------------------------------------------------------
(end of quoted now-anonymous e-mail)
that was an error. I'm leaving the name off in case it wasn't an error.
------------------------------
I think the adults have the right to the best quality sleep possible
and the
children must be secondary. Adults must drive 6000lb cars through
traffic
while looking for addresses and tuning out the crying baby in the
back. Life
and limb is riding on the quick reflexes of the adult.
Adults must be productive, creative and attentive at their jobs so
they can
provide for their children. In these days of cost cutting, it is more
important than ever to be at your best on the job.
I'm studying to be a marriage therapist with a specialization in sex
therapy, and the reality is that most people don't get enough sleep
or sex.
Poor sleep makes for bad sex, and that has a psychological and
physiological
effect on the marriage. Recent studies have shown that semen
actually has
an anti-depressant effect for the woman. Maybe because I have 7
children
and learned that I was able to cheat sleep for 5 years then 8 years, but
then it got ridiculous, and we had to set better physical boundaries
so that
we all didn't collapse. A large household of small children requires
stable, well-rested parents. The opposite of that is emotional chaos.
Now my married 22 year old daughter has a dog that keeps her awake at
night,
and sleeps sideways on their bed. We tell them that they better
learn to
figure that out before they have kids :)
-------------------------------------------------------------
(end of quoted now-anonymous e-mail)
Sandra Dodd
-=-. Many of us coming from a traditional
public schooled background will do the homework and read the books and
apply what we think we have learned. We will pat ourselves on the
back for following the unschooling recipe. Unfortunately, concepts
become misunderstood or muddied and bits get lost in the translation.
Common sense gets left aside perhaps. -=-
Holly and I have discussed this quite a bit, and discussed it last
Thursday, most recently.
Sometimes what I see are the parents behaving the way they behave in
front of other unschooling parents.
At conferences where the kids are going to stay up late or whatever,
you can just about pick out the ones whose parents don't usually give
them choices, but who have let them loose for the span of the
conference. They exaggerate their actions and their freedom.
There's a dishonesty about it all, and they don't act as calmly and
rationally as those kids who are used to acting the same way when
their parents aren't there as when they are. I'm talking about
teens now.
I've never said unschooling was easy. I've never stopped trying,
daily, to help people understand it. Because some people think I'm
abrasive (those who haven't heard me speak or don't know me, who
don't know my tone of voice), the UnschoolingBasics list was created
partly for a place for people to go who thought they wanted to know
about unschooling but wanted to be where I wasn't, and partly with
the intent that that would be for beginning info and
UnschoolingDiscussion would be for more advanced info. People aren't
being sent over, though, for the same reasons most of us discovered
long ago--it's good for those who get it to stay and help others get
it. So that plan didn't really turn out as intended.
Another couple of lists grew out of the Unschooling Discussion list
too, as more specialized lists, with the assumption that people would
be on both. AlwaysUnschooled and Shine with Unschooling. Now
neither seems like a specialized list anymore. So with five or six
lists where there used to be the AOL boards and then
UnschoolingDiscussion, advice doesn't have the same cohesion it once
did, and some odd ideas are treated less odd on one list than on
another.
I think it's best to be around unschoolers whose kids are older, who
have unschooled a long time, than around families whose kids are all
young, if people want to gain faith in unschooling as a longterm
philosophy and practice. It is possible--I'm guessing somewhat--that
lists with more young children have fostered misunderstandings about
*how* older unschoolers got to the point of trusting their children's
judgment.
I will say this for now: It was NOT from being kept up all night by
kids who hit and kick them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
public schooled background will do the homework and read the books and
apply what we think we have learned. We will pat ourselves on the
back for following the unschooling recipe. Unfortunately, concepts
become misunderstood or muddied and bits get lost in the translation.
Common sense gets left aside perhaps. -=-
Holly and I have discussed this quite a bit, and discussed it last
Thursday, most recently.
Sometimes what I see are the parents behaving the way they behave in
front of other unschooling parents.
At conferences where the kids are going to stay up late or whatever,
you can just about pick out the ones whose parents don't usually give
them choices, but who have let them loose for the span of the
conference. They exaggerate their actions and their freedom.
There's a dishonesty about it all, and they don't act as calmly and
rationally as those kids who are used to acting the same way when
their parents aren't there as when they are. I'm talking about
teens now.
I've never said unschooling was easy. I've never stopped trying,
daily, to help people understand it. Because some people think I'm
abrasive (those who haven't heard me speak or don't know me, who
don't know my tone of voice), the UnschoolingBasics list was created
partly for a place for people to go who thought they wanted to know
about unschooling but wanted to be where I wasn't, and partly with
the intent that that would be for beginning info and
UnschoolingDiscussion would be for more advanced info. People aren't
being sent over, though, for the same reasons most of us discovered
long ago--it's good for those who get it to stay and help others get
it. So that plan didn't really turn out as intended.
Another couple of lists grew out of the Unschooling Discussion list
too, as more specialized lists, with the assumption that people would
be on both. AlwaysUnschooled and Shine with Unschooling. Now
neither seems like a specialized list anymore. So with five or six
lists where there used to be the AOL boards and then
UnschoolingDiscussion, advice doesn't have the same cohesion it once
did, and some odd ideas are treated less odd on one list than on
another.
I think it's best to be around unschoolers whose kids are older, who
have unschooled a long time, than around families whose kids are all
young, if people want to gain faith in unschooling as a longterm
philosophy and practice. It is possible--I'm guessing somewhat--that
lists with more young children have fostered misunderstandings about
*how* older unschoolers got to the point of trusting their children's
judgment.
I will say this for now: It was NOT from being kept up all night by
kids who hit and kick them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-In conversation with her it
was apparent that she didn't want to curtail his freedom or cause him
to feel bad about his
behavior--all at the expense of other people's belongings and safety
for their children-=-
And at the expense of his happiness and emotional and social growth.
She could have helped him with some behavior he could feel GOOD about.
-=-It was a great lesson for me in the end in what it can really mean
to stand up for my children--not just against an unfriendly or unkind
stranger, but to a destructive or dangerous influence in our lives
disguised as a friend. -=-
When my kids were little and one hit another, I would sometimes say
something like "I wouldn't let a stranger come in here and hit Marty
so I can't let you hit him either." (to Kirby, or Holly)
I've written things in conversations like this about reminding kids
that what they're doing would be considered a felony or could get
them arrested if they were older. Someone on a list here somewhere
tried to shame me, saying I was scaring little kids. Little kids
SHOULD be scared, if they're assaulting other people. Assault isn't
okay. It's not okay for parents to assault kids or for kids to
assault other people (adults or children). Pretending it's okay is
harmful to all involved.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
was apparent that she didn't want to curtail his freedom or cause him
to feel bad about his
behavior--all at the expense of other people's belongings and safety
for their children-=-
And at the expense of his happiness and emotional and social growth.
She could have helped him with some behavior he could feel GOOD about.
-=-It was a great lesson for me in the end in what it can really mean
to stand up for my children--not just against an unfriendly or unkind
stranger, but to a destructive or dangerous influence in our lives
disguised as a friend. -=-
When my kids were little and one hit another, I would sometimes say
something like "I wouldn't let a stranger come in here and hit Marty
so I can't let you hit him either." (to Kirby, or Holly)
I've written things in conversations like this about reminding kids
that what they're doing would be considered a felony or could get
them arrested if they were older. Someone on a list here somewhere
tried to shame me, saying I was scaring little kids. Little kids
SHOULD be scared, if they're assaulting other people. Assault isn't
okay. It's not okay for parents to assault kids or for kids to
assault other people (adults or children). Pretending it's okay is
harmful to all involved.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Maybe I'm misunderstanding - how do you follow through on the
"ifs" in these
situations? My husband has been staying up a good chunk of the night
with
our son, and this works ok when our daughter sleeps in, but if she's up
early then my husband feels like he's not getting enough sleep.-=-
At least your husband isn't having to nurse a baby every few hours,
but if he feels like he's not getting enough sleep, he's probably not.
Can you give him full nights sleep all alone on the nights before
your days off? Could you stay up with the kids while he takes a nap
and try to tire them out with running around at a park or something
so they'll sleep sooner and longer?
It wasn't "following through" on the if, when one of mine wanted to
stay up. It was them agreeing to be quiet, and then them being
quiet. If I had to get up and say "be quiet," they had another
chance. If I had to get up a second time, they knew it meant they
had to get in bed and be still and quiet until the next morning.
They had reading lights and books and cassette players and
earphones. they were never slammed into a bed alone in the dark.
They all shared a room when they were little and I slept in there a
lot of the time.
The respect and trust came first, and I said "Okay" to lots of
requests to expand their range of being away from me alone in all
kinds of situations.
In a situation in which there have been lots of rules and the parents
change abruptly instead of gradually saying yes more and more, they
will have problems I didn't have.
Perhaps some people have said "Don't have any bedtime," but what I
have said is "my kids went to sleep when they were tired." That
might sound like "no bedtimes," but it was part of a life since birth
of being calm and accommodating together as much as we could, and
sometimes being exasperated and exhausted, and the kids being in on
the attempts to find comfort for everyone in the family.
Being kinder to a child who is brought to bed at a certain time,
being soothing and sympathetic, talking him to sleep or singing him
to sleep, is worlds better than saying "Stay up as long as you want
to and do whatever you want to."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"ifs" in these
situations? My husband has been staying up a good chunk of the night
with
our son, and this works ok when our daughter sleeps in, but if she's up
early then my husband feels like he's not getting enough sleep.-=-
At least your husband isn't having to nurse a baby every few hours,
but if he feels like he's not getting enough sleep, he's probably not.
Can you give him full nights sleep all alone on the nights before
your days off? Could you stay up with the kids while he takes a nap
and try to tire them out with running around at a park or something
so they'll sleep sooner and longer?
It wasn't "following through" on the if, when one of mine wanted to
stay up. It was them agreeing to be quiet, and then them being
quiet. If I had to get up and say "be quiet," they had another
chance. If I had to get up a second time, they knew it meant they
had to get in bed and be still and quiet until the next morning.
They had reading lights and books and cassette players and
earphones. they were never slammed into a bed alone in the dark.
They all shared a room when they were little and I slept in there a
lot of the time.
The respect and trust came first, and I said "Okay" to lots of
requests to expand their range of being away from me alone in all
kinds of situations.
In a situation in which there have been lots of rules and the parents
change abruptly instead of gradually saying yes more and more, they
will have problems I didn't have.
Perhaps some people have said "Don't have any bedtime," but what I
have said is "my kids went to sleep when they were tired." That
might sound like "no bedtimes," but it was part of a life since birth
of being calm and accommodating together as much as we could, and
sometimes being exasperated and exhausted, and the kids being in on
the attempts to find comfort for everyone in the family.
Being kinder to a child who is brought to bed at a certain time,
being soothing and sympathetic, talking him to sleep or singing him
to sleep, is worlds better than saying "Stay up as long as you want
to and do whatever you want to."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
serendipitymama
wow. selfish? are you kidding me? i don't think that wanting to sleep
is selfish. i'm very connected with my kids, my selfishness is not
preventing that. i think you are confusing 'NEEDS' and 'WANTS'. i woke
up a million times a night to nurse my daughter because she 'needed'
it. she does not 'need' to stay up and watch a movie at 2am, but she
'wants' to so i'm trying to make it work while maintaining
consideration for everyone in our family.
my understanding of not setting arbitrary bedtimes didn't mean that
the parent needed to stay up with the children. i'd like to respect
their choice to stay up, i don't think that means i should have to. as
it is, i do stay up if we're doing something together or my son wants
to talk or wants me to watch him play his game or whatever it is. but
at some point, i want to sleep. i think i should be able to say 'you
can stay up if you'd like, i really need to sleep now'. isn't that
modeling listening your body's needs?
brianna
--- In [email protected], "diana jenner" <hahamommy@...>
wrote:
is selfish. i'm very connected with my kids, my selfishness is not
preventing that. i think you are confusing 'NEEDS' and 'WANTS'. i woke
up a million times a night to nurse my daughter because she 'needed'
it. she does not 'need' to stay up and watch a movie at 2am, but she
'wants' to so i'm trying to make it work while maintaining
consideration for everyone in our family.
my understanding of not setting arbitrary bedtimes didn't mean that
the parent needed to stay up with the children. i'd like to respect
their choice to stay up, i don't think that means i should have to. as
it is, i do stay up if we're doing something together or my son wants
to talk or wants me to watch him play his game or whatever it is. but
at some point, i want to sleep. i think i should be able to say 'you
can stay up if you'd like, i really need to sleep now'. isn't that
modeling listening your body's needs?
brianna
--- In [email protected], "diana jenner" <hahamommy@...>
wrote:
>is that
> On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 7:41 PM, serendipitymama <granolapunk@...>
> wrote:
>
> > About 3 months ago we lifted bedtime restrictions. The problem
> > my ds and dd want to stay up late, which is fine with me, but theywith your
> > don't want to stay out in the livingroom alone. So we've been letting
> > them come in the family bed and put a movie on in there. Well this is
> > meaning that dh and I are getting very little sleep. The movie is
> > quiet enough not to bother us but the kids are arguing about one
> > getting in front of the other, or they are eating food noisily, or one
> > touched the other one, or 2yo is jumping and climbing all over, or
> > they need something to eat or drink but wont go to the kitchen alone,
> > etc. It would be easier with my 6yo because I can tell him 'look, it's
> > your choice to stay up, but you can't make us stay up too' but my dd
> > doesn't understand that. My dh really needs to sleep because he gets
> > up at 4:30am for work, and while I can sleep in, I really hate losing
> > half my day because I needed to sleep in until 11am to make up for not
> > sleeping at night.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ***Doze on the sofa with them in the living room, so DH can sleep?
> How exactly are you losing 1/2 a day by sleeping & spending time
> kids?? Are there dire things that *have to* (as in, someone will DIEif you
> don't) be done before noon?? Can some of those things be done afterbefore
> midnight? Can you get up at 8 and do some stuff and then take a nap
> the kids wake up?respond
> I'd be careful of that kind of talk to a 6 year old -- how would you
> to him if he copied your modeling? Perhaps looking at the situation as ahave)
> partnership instead of adversaries would help -- he has needs (they
> and he's turning to the most important human with far more lifeexperience
> to help those needs get met. Of course he can't *make you* --it surewould
> be nice if you just *did it* because you love him enough to let go of(not that
> whatever selfish thought is stopping you from really connecting.
> selfish thoughts are inherently bad, they should definitely be wellexamined
> before acting upon them!)before
>
> > how can I be respectful of their chosen sleep schedule without it
> > impeding on mine and dh's? if they want to stay up but end up coming
> > to bed solely because they don't want to be alone in the livingroom,
> > they aren't really getting that feeling of having control over
> > themselves, they feel like it's not *really* a choice.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ***I promise you will have many, many years to sleep without the
> interruption of small children; just as I assume you had many years
> they came. DH and I talked long and often about our marriage isforever and
> babies are *not*!! Even when he became terminally ill, his/our focuslearn that
> remained on our relationship/time with the kids.
> When children and their needs (even the needs that conflict with the
> grownups needs) are respected and honored as real and valid, they
> others' needs are to be respected and honored. (and no, this doesn'tmean
> you can do tit-for-tat with kids; you need patience to see it come toand how
> fruition) -- writing this sentence makes me think of Sandra's kids
> wonderful they have been/continue to be with my kid(s), who happen to be
> years younger than them.
>
> > are there resources for the radical side of 'unschooling' beginning
> > from toddlerhood?
> >
>
>
>
>
> ***Always Unschooled
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/
>
> >
> --
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
wisdomalways5
I think some of the problem is moving from parent centered
to "family" centered and not child centered. There is not enough
emphasis on you can be mindful of the whole family- too many people
hear "give the child what they want" and forget that it has
to "work" for you too.
Julie
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
to "family" centered and not child centered. There is not enough
emphasis on you can be mindful of the whole family- too many people
hear "give the child what they want" and forget that it has
to "work" for you too.
Julie
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
>that
>
> Where did the "control over themselves" phrase come from? I'm
> wondering, because I'm seeing more and more odd and harmful ideas
> coming across the list here. If it's on my site, I want to put a
> disclaimer up there, or clarify it. If it's from another list
> was ever associated with this one, I might want to write to thelist
> owner and ask her to cease and desist (or have balancinginformation).
>Your
> YOU the mom have to have "control" over the peace of your home.
> husband's sleep and your two year old's desire to be awake becausea
> five year old is awake are two very, very different things and
> shouldn't be anywhere near each other at night.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
serendipitymama
yes, yes, yes! I couldn't agree more. FWIW, I don't even like the term
'unschooling' and strongly dislike using 'RU' as a label for our
lifestyle, but it's what is out there and for the sake of
communicating what I mean in general, we've taken it on.
dh and I were pretty shocked by the behavior we saw at the conference
as well. from what we have seen and read, people are really going from
extreme 'controlling everything' parents to extreme 'do anything and
everything your heart desires no matter the consequence'...that isn't
what we're about at all.
situations that come up that i need help or advice with, the solutions
are a lot different between my 6.5yo and my 2.5yo. they have
completely different personalities, and completely different cognitive
abilities. the principles may be the same, but the actions you take
ARE different in dealing with them. for example, when we need to take
my son to his musical theatre class and my 2yo is refusing to get in
the van. the way i handle that situation with her is going to be
different then how i'd handle it if my 6yo was refusing to get in the
van. kwim?
Brianna
'unschooling' and strongly dislike using 'RU' as a label for our
lifestyle, but it's what is out there and for the sake of
communicating what I mean in general, we've taken it on.
dh and I were pretty shocked by the behavior we saw at the conference
as well. from what we have seen and read, people are really going from
extreme 'controlling everything' parents to extreme 'do anything and
everything your heart desires no matter the consequence'...that isn't
what we're about at all.
situations that come up that i need help or advice with, the solutions
are a lot different between my 6.5yo and my 2.5yo. they have
completely different personalities, and completely different cognitive
abilities. the principles may be the same, but the actions you take
ARE different in dealing with them. for example, when we need to take
my son to his musical theatre class and my 2yo is refusing to get in
the van. the way i handle that situation with her is going to be
different then how i'd handle it if my 6yo was refusing to get in the
van. kwim?
Brianna
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-are there resources for the radical side of 'unschooling' beginning
> from toddlerhood? -=-
>
> There is a list called Always Unschooled, but I am not on it and
> can't personally speak to its clarity. I'm concerned about people
> starting to refer to their lives as "RU" (I don't like that at all
> for many reasons) and some lists are calling Unschooling "US" (which
> sucks nineteen ways from Sunday).
>
> Let's talk about mindful parenting. Let's talk about being
> compassionate and peaceful. Let's talk about living by principles.
> Then there's no need for separate resources based on the age of the
> children.
>
> ----------------------------------I'm changing the subject only
> slightly.--------------------------------
>
> I am very concerned after the conference last weekend. It wasn't an
> unschooling conference, but it did quite lean that direction. I
> observed three families in which young children were behaving
> horribly. I wouldn't want them at my house, though in one case I met
> and really liked the parents. The other two I just saw at a
> distance, so I honestly have NO CLUE who they were, so if I say
> something here and the family in question is reading, just suck it
> up. No confessions are requested and none are welcom. I don't
> know who you are and it's fine. I want to talk about the problems,
> not the people.
>
> I saw a child hit a parent in the face, and the parent acted like it
> was sweet and good.
>
> I saw a child kick a father who was carrying another child and
> pushing a stroller. He didn't respond negatively to having been kicked.
>
> I saw a child kick a mother. Worse, a non-homeschooling friend of
> mine saw it and mentioned it to me, and thought it was very bad.
>
> All this reflects on unschooling itself, and not at all well. There
> were people at the conference considering whether to be unschoolers.
> No doubt some of them also saw such behavior, and they might not even
> want to homeschool because of it.
>
> Being respectful to a child can't possibly include creating or
> condoning a situation in which he or she has to kick or hit to get a
> parent's attention, nor one in which kicking and hitting are treated
> as normal and good.
>
> In light of last week's discussion about the interaction at Wendy's,
> I will say that if ANY human being kicks me, I'm going to respond
> negatively. If a child comes up and kicks me I'm not going to smile
> and say "Oooh, hi. Where's your mom?" I would most likely take the
> child strongly by the arm, establish eye contact and say "Don't ever
> kick me again," and I would mean it. I would say "Don't kick
> people. It's not okay."
>
> Where did anyone get the idea that it was respectful to allow (or
> require, or approve) kicking in the shins?
>
> Is anyone *REALLY* using unschooling as an excuse to encourage
> horrible behavior? Treating children like people involves helping
> them understand how to act as people are expected to act.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think some of the problem is moving from parent centered
to "family" centered and not child centered.-=-
I think you mean it's a problem to replace "parent centered" with
"child centered."
Yes. If that's what you meant, I agree, I mean. <G>
I moved my own to "learning centered," and that covered learning when
one was tired, and learning how to have peace for each person in the
family as much as possible.
When people come and talk about "child led learning," I object.
Nobody's "leading the learning" here. Learning is flowing like a
peaceful river.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to "family" centered and not child centered.-=-
I think you mean it's a problem to replace "parent centered" with
"child centered."
Yes. If that's what you meant, I agree, I mean. <G>
I moved my own to "learning centered," and that covered learning when
one was tired, and learning how to have peace for each person in the
family as much as possible.
When people come and talk about "child led learning," I object.
Nobody's "leading the learning" here. Learning is flowing like a
peaceful river.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-FWIW, I don't even like the term
'unschooling' and strongly dislike using 'RU' as a label for our
lifestyle, but it's what is out there and for the sake of
communicating what I mean in general, we've taken it on. -=-
Well "unschooling" is 30 years old and has a connection with John Holt.
"RU" is very recent, and it's not too late to use "unschooling"
instead of "RU." You don't need to take on EVERYthing. <g>
-=-situations that come up that i need help or advice with, the
solutions
are a lot different between my 6.5yo and my 2.5yo. they have
completely different personalities, and completely different cognitive
abilities. the principles may be the same, but the actions you take
ARE different in dealing with them. -=-
Yes. Are you suggesting you're getting one-size-fits-all answers
from unschoolers?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
'unschooling' and strongly dislike using 'RU' as a label for our
lifestyle, but it's what is out there and for the sake of
communicating what I mean in general, we've taken it on. -=-
Well "unschooling" is 30 years old and has a connection with John Holt.
"RU" is very recent, and it's not too late to use "unschooling"
instead of "RU." You don't need to take on EVERYthing. <g>
-=-situations that come up that i need help or advice with, the
solutions
are a lot different between my 6.5yo and my 2.5yo. they have
completely different personalities, and completely different cognitive
abilities. the principles may be the same, but the actions you take
ARE different in dealing with them. -=-
Yes. Are you suggesting you're getting one-size-fits-all answers
from unschoolers?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
serendipitymama
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
specifically.
> -=-situations that come up that i need help or advice with, theI was just explaining why I asked for resources of help with my 2yo
> solutions
>
> are a lot different between my 6.5yo and my 2.5yo. they have
> completely different personalities, and completely different cognitive
> abilities. the principles may be the same, but the actions you take
> ARE different in dealing with them. -=-
>
> Yes. Are you suggesting you're getting one-size-fits-all answers
> from unschoolers?
>
> Sandra
>
specifically.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I agree with everything Sandra is writes here.
I think what happens is that people don't really get it and just leave their kids to fend for themselves. They unparent. I saw that at L and L last year. The kids who where behaving without respect for others or property were all alone. Even Little kids as young as 5.
A couple of kids between the ages of 4 and 7 came over to my dd that was 19 months at the time and poked her right in the eye. It was right in front of me and it took me by surprise. The parents were nowhere to be found. If your children are not able to be in public alone then don't let them!
I don't let my kids destroyed other people's property or hurt other people. I am there with them because they are young and need me to guide them. You just don;t leave until they are capable of understanding..
Alex
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
-=-. Many of us coming from a traditional
public schooled background will do the homework and read the books and
apply what we think we have learned. We will pat ourselves on the
back for following the unschooling recipe. Unfortunately, concepts
become misunderstood or muddied and bits get lost in the translation.
Common sense gets left aside perhaps. -=-
Holly and I have discussed this quite a bit, and discussed it last
Thursday, most recently.
Sometimes what I see are the parents behaving the way they behave in
front of other unschooling parents.
At conferences where the kids are going to stay up late or whatever,
you can just about pick out the ones whose parents don't usually give
them choices, but who have let them loose for the span of the
conference. They exaggerate their actions and their freedom.
There's a dishonesty about it all, and they don't act as calmly and
rationally as those kids who are used to acting the same way when
their parents aren't there as when they are. I'm talking about
teens now.
I've never said unschooling was easy. I've never stopped trying,
daily, to help people understand it. Because some people think I'm
abrasive (those who haven't heard me speak or don't know me, who
don't know my tone of voice), the UnschoolingBasics list was created
partly for a place for people to go who thought they wanted to know
about unschooling but wanted to be where I wasn't, and partly with
the intent that that would be for beginning info and
UnschoolingDiscussion would be for more advanced info. People aren't
being sent over, though, for the same reasons most of us discovered
long ago--it's good for those who get it to stay and help others get
it. So that plan didn't really turn out as intended.
Another couple of lists grew out of the Unschooling Discussion list
too, as more specialized lists, with the assumption that people would
be on both. AlwaysUnschooled and Shine with Unschooling. Now
neither seems like a specialized list anymore. So with five or six
lists where there used to be the AOL boards and then
UnschoolingDiscussion, advice doesn't have the same cohesion it once
did, and some odd ideas are treated less odd on one list than on
another.
I think it's best to be around unschoolers whose kids are older, who
have unschooled a long time, than around families whose kids are all
young, if people want to gain faith in unschooling as a longterm
philosophy and practice. It is possible--I'm guessing somewhat--that
lists with more young children have fostered misunderstandings about
*how* older unschoolers got to the point of trusting their children's
judgment.
I will say this for now: It was NOT from being kept up all night by
kids who hit and kick them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think what happens is that people don't really get it and just leave their kids to fend for themselves. They unparent. I saw that at L and L last year. The kids who where behaving without respect for others or property were all alone. Even Little kids as young as 5.
A couple of kids between the ages of 4 and 7 came over to my dd that was 19 months at the time and poked her right in the eye. It was right in front of me and it took me by surprise. The parents were nowhere to be found. If your children are not able to be in public alone then don't let them!
I don't let my kids destroyed other people's property or hurt other people. I am there with them because they are young and need me to guide them. You just don;t leave until they are capable of understanding..
Alex
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
-=-. Many of us coming from a traditional
public schooled background will do the homework and read the books and
apply what we think we have learned. We will pat ourselves on the
back for following the unschooling recipe. Unfortunately, concepts
become misunderstood or muddied and bits get lost in the translation.
Common sense gets left aside perhaps. -=-
Holly and I have discussed this quite a bit, and discussed it last
Thursday, most recently.
Sometimes what I see are the parents behaving the way they behave in
front of other unschooling parents.
At conferences where the kids are going to stay up late or whatever,
you can just about pick out the ones whose parents don't usually give
them choices, but who have let them loose for the span of the
conference. They exaggerate their actions and their freedom.
There's a dishonesty about it all, and they don't act as calmly and
rationally as those kids who are used to acting the same way when
their parents aren't there as when they are. I'm talking about
teens now.
I've never said unschooling was easy. I've never stopped trying,
daily, to help people understand it. Because some people think I'm
abrasive (those who haven't heard me speak or don't know me, who
don't know my tone of voice), the UnschoolingBasics list was created
partly for a place for people to go who thought they wanted to know
about unschooling but wanted to be where I wasn't, and partly with
the intent that that would be for beginning info and
UnschoolingDiscussion would be for more advanced info. People aren't
being sent over, though, for the same reasons most of us discovered
long ago--it's good for those who get it to stay and help others get
it. So that plan didn't really turn out as intended.
Another couple of lists grew out of the Unschooling Discussion list
too, as more specialized lists, with the assumption that people would
be on both. AlwaysUnschooled and Shine with Unschooling. Now
neither seems like a specialized list anymore. So with five or six
lists where there used to be the AOL boards and then
UnschoolingDiscussion, advice doesn't have the same cohesion it once
did, and some odd ideas are treated less odd on one list than on
another.
I think it's best to be around unschoolers whose kids are older, who
have unschooled a long time, than around families whose kids are all
young, if people want to gain faith in unschooling as a longterm
philosophy and practice. It is possible--I'm guessing somewhat--that
lists with more young children have fostered misunderstandings about
*how* older unschoolers got to the point of trusting their children's
judgment.
I will say this for now: It was NOT from being kept up all night by
kids who hit and kick them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I was just explaining why I asked for resources of help with my 2yo
specifically.-=-
But the principles of seeing what they're interested in, making them
comfortable, being gentle with them, helping them understand the
world--all of that--those are the same for two year olds or forty
year olds.
The idea that those with young children know more about having young
children and the eventual outcomes than those who have teenagers is a
false belief.
I've had three two year olds who are now well-adjusted young adults.
(16, 19, 21)
It's likely I know more about what will help you in the long run than
someone who has a two year old who hasn't turned three, or a five
year old who used to be two and whose relatives are saying "Why isn't
he in school?
It's DEFINITE that Pam or Joyce will have better ideas about how to
be with two year olds, eve though their girls are teens, than someone
who has a six year old who kicks or hits.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
specifically.-=-
But the principles of seeing what they're interested in, making them
comfortable, being gentle with them, helping them understand the
world--all of that--those are the same for two year olds or forty
year olds.
The idea that those with young children know more about having young
children and the eventual outcomes than those who have teenagers is a
false belief.
I've had three two year olds who are now well-adjusted young adults.
(16, 19, 21)
It's likely I know more about what will help you in the long run than
someone who has a two year old who hasn't turned three, or a five
year old who used to be two and whose relatives are saying "Why isn't
he in school?
It's DEFINITE that Pam or Joyce will have better ideas about how to
be with two year olds, eve though their girls are teens, than someone
who has a six year old who kicks or hits.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
donnakeeble
-
it?? Seriously, this has bugged me for months.... One of my biggest
parenting issues is public humiliation. I really think that much of
conventional parenting is about avoiding humiliation rather than being
a moral or kind little human being. I always used to joke with my
kids that I would rather their "misdeeds" come out at home and their
public face be their "best behaviour". I have (slowly) come to
realize that my children do not have to be a reflection of me to prove
my success as a mom.
Donna
> It wasn't a decorative wall. It was one storey of bumpy stone, andin no way
> could be hurt by the kids climbing it. Truly it would have taken theThat's why
> energetic use of a sledgehammer to damage this particular wall.
> it was ok. It couldn't be damaged by their activity. All the parentswere
> right there too.Thanks Robyn - was the staff at the conference center truly OK with
>
> Just so you know.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
>
it?? Seriously, this has bugged me for months.... One of my biggest
parenting issues is public humiliation. I really think that much of
conventional parenting is about avoiding humiliation rather than being
a moral or kind little human being. I always used to joke with my
kids that I would rather their "misdeeds" come out at home and their
public face be their "best behaviour". I have (slowly) come to
realize that my children do not have to be a reflection of me to prove
my success as a mom.
Donna
jenstarc4
>even
> When we've tried to get him to bed when "ifs" aren''t met, and he's
> more disruptive (we all sleep in the same bed).in these
>
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding - how do you follow through on the "ifs"
> situations?In my experience, a child that isn't being quiet or respectful of
another persons sleep, should go to bed. Sometimes, especially with
young children their energy level gets very unreasonable the more
tired they get. At that point, the "if" isn't met, and the child
should be gently led to a quiet sleep inducing environment.
I do have a child that will scream and protest at that, no matter how
gentle and kind that I am about it, so I understand how it could feel
as if I am doing something hugely disrespectful of her by leading her
to that sleep environment that she is protesting. However, she is 6
and her judgement of other people's need for quiet and sleep isn't
completely honed yet, nor is her own judgement of how tired she
actually is.
If the goal is peace and quiet for ALL, then leading a screaming 6 yo
to a quiet and peaceful environment will benefit everyone, including
the 6 yo, who will eventually settle down and become peaceful enough
to get the sleep that she clearly needs.
diana jenner
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 11:16 AM, serendipitymama <granolapunk@...>
wrote:
attacking you, merely nudging you to another perspective. I mean Self-ish as
in putting YourSelf and Your needs above those of your less experienced
humans in your life. Nothing more.
are not important because they're *wants* so I work hard to not minimize
anyone else's *NEEDS* and consider them just that, a need (maybe even a need
I don't understand, I don't have to understand, my mommy-job includes
facilitating the meeting of the needs in my family.
i think i should be able to say 'you
much more gentle and understanding.
Absolutely, have ^^that conversation. When I have that same discussion with
my night-owl son (now 9.5), he asks me to please be near him and I doze on
the sofa or the comfy chair until I wake up a few hours later and move to my
own bed. I *could* minimize this and treat this as a *want* - instead I
remember the honor of having a kid who wants me near and I do just that. The
alternative vision in my head is a kid who knows his mama doesn't want to be
here and he doesn't dare ask her to be... I don't wanna be that mama.
I so appreciate his request for my presence, soon enough he won't *need* me
so much anymore...
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wrote:
> wow. selfish? are you kidding me?Re-read my message, with a sweet, soothing voice in your head --- not
>
attacking you, merely nudging you to another perspective. I mean Self-ish as
in putting YourSelf and Your needs above those of your less experienced
humans in your life. Nothing more.
> i don't think that wanting to sleepPersonally, I don't appreciate people outside of ME to decide if my needs
> is selfish. i'm very connected with my kids, my selfishness is not
> preventing that. i think you are confusing 'NEEDS' and 'WANTS'.
>
are not important because they're *wants* so I work hard to not minimize
anyone else's *NEEDS* and consider them just that, a need (maybe even a need
I don't understand, I don't have to understand, my mommy-job includes
facilitating the meeting of the needs in my family.
i think i should be able to say 'you
> can stay up if you'd like, i really need to sleep now'. isn't thatThat's a different sentence than the first one you posted... this version is
> modeling listening your body's needs?
>
much more gentle and understanding.
Absolutely, have ^^that conversation. When I have that same discussion with
my night-owl son (now 9.5), he asks me to please be near him and I doze on
the sofa or the comfy chair until I wake up a few hours later and move to my
own bed. I *could* minimize this and treat this as a *want* - instead I
remember the honor of having a kid who wants me near and I do just that. The
alternative vision in my head is a kid who knows his mama doesn't want to be
here and he doesn't dare ask her to be... I don't wanna be that mama.
I so appreciate his request for my presence, soon enough he won't *need* me
so much anymore...
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jenstarc4
>Holt.
>
> Well "unschooling" is 30 years old and has a connection with John
>I always tell people that we homeschool, unless they are homeschoolers
> "RU" is very recent, and it's not too late to use "unschooling"
> instead of "RU." You don't need to take on EVERYthing. <g>
>
that want to know specifics. I also do not refer to our family
as "unschoolers". It is something that we do, not who we are. It is
how we choose to educate with mindful parenting. I use the
term "unschool" as a verb, not a noun. Although, I have used it as an
adjective, like, "I'm an unschooling mom."
Sandra Dodd
-=-. However, she is 6
and her judgement of other people's need for quiet and sleep isn't
completely honed yet, nor is her own judgement of how tired she
actually is.-=-
Then maybe she's too little to decide when to sleep. As she gets
older and understands better, you could give her more options.
-=-If the goal is peace and quiet for ALL, then leading a screaming 6
yo to a quiet and peaceful environment will benefit everyone,
including the 6 yo,-=-
If the alternative is leaving her screaming far from a bed, or
putting the pillow over your head and hoping she'll let you sleep.
But if a six year old is screaming, something happened *before* the
incidents of the moment.
I'm concerned that some parents may have unwisely told their children
they can do whatever they want to because they're *UNschoolers* now
without the parents take enough time and effort to really understand
what people on these lists are talking about when they say arbitrary
bedtimes can be a problem.
There's a vast area between arbitrary, inflexible, enforced bedtimes
and "There are no bedtimes."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and her judgement of other people's need for quiet and sleep isn't
completely honed yet, nor is her own judgement of how tired she
actually is.-=-
Then maybe she's too little to decide when to sleep. As she gets
older and understands better, you could give her more options.
-=-If the goal is peace and quiet for ALL, then leading a screaming 6
yo to a quiet and peaceful environment will benefit everyone,
including the 6 yo,-=-
If the alternative is leaving her screaming far from a bed, or
putting the pillow over your head and hoping she'll let you sleep.
But if a six year old is screaming, something happened *before* the
incidents of the moment.
I'm concerned that some parents may have unwisely told their children
they can do whatever they want to because they're *UNschoolers* now
without the parents take enough time and effort to really understand
what people on these lists are talking about when they say arbitrary
bedtimes can be a problem.
There's a vast area between arbitrary, inflexible, enforced bedtimes
and "There are no bedtimes."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meghan Anderson-Coates
******
Is anyone *REALLY* using unschooling as an excuse to encourage
horrible behavior? Treating children like people involves helping
them understand how to act as people are expected to act.
Sandra
*********
Unfortunately, I believe the answer is yes.
The people doing this don't call it 'encouraging horrible behavior' though. They consider it letting the children be themselves and express whatever emotion they're having at the time. They seem to think that any sort of behavior modification or suppression is abusive. They don't believe in saying no, ever, in any circumstances. The child is allowed to do whatever he/she wants at any time, otherwise you're interferring with their development. Most of the people I've met that have this philosophy call themselves radical unschoolers. This of course is a generalization, but I've met far too many people like this.
When I do come across people like this and they try to align themselves with me as being a 'fellow unschooler', I quickly let them know that's not my interpretation of unschooling (and explain what unschooling is and isn't to me). Unfortunately, the kids I've known that have grown up in that kind of environment have turned out to be rather obnoxious bullies. Rudeness, violence or disrespect to other humans has never been okay behavior in our family. Tamzin is appalled by some of the kids we've met that claim to be radical unschoolers, and certainly doesn't want to hang out with them. We model respect in our home with ALL our family members, adults and kids alike - no one is exempt from that.
Meghan
I can create what I can imagine. ~ Charlene Kingston
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Is anyone *REALLY* using unschooling as an excuse to encourage
horrible behavior? Treating children like people involves helping
them understand how to act as people are expected to act.
Sandra
*********
Unfortunately, I believe the answer is yes.
The people doing this don't call it 'encouraging horrible behavior' though. They consider it letting the children be themselves and express whatever emotion they're having at the time. They seem to think that any sort of behavior modification or suppression is abusive. They don't believe in saying no, ever, in any circumstances. The child is allowed to do whatever he/she wants at any time, otherwise you're interferring with their development. Most of the people I've met that have this philosophy call themselves radical unschoolers. This of course is a generalization, but I've met far too many people like this.
When I do come across people like this and they try to align themselves with me as being a 'fellow unschooler', I quickly let them know that's not my interpretation of unschooling (and explain what unschooling is and isn't to me). Unfortunately, the kids I've known that have grown up in that kind of environment have turned out to be rather obnoxious bullies. Rudeness, violence or disrespect to other humans has never been okay behavior in our family. Tamzin is appalled by some of the kids we've met that claim to be radical unschoolers, and certainly doesn't want to hang out with them. We model respect in our home with ALL our family members, adults and kids alike - no one is exempt from that.
Meghan
I can create what I can imagine. ~ Charlene Kingston
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
Another couple of lists grew out of the Unschooling Discussion list too, as more specialized lists, with the assumption that people would be on both. AlwaysUnschooled and Shine with Unschooling. Now neither seems like a specialized list anymore. So with five or six lists where there used to be the AOL boards and then UnschoolingDiscussi on, advice doesn't have the same cohesion it once did, and some odd ideas are treated less odd on one list than on another.
*****
I'm no longer active at AU, but remember that it grew out of a time when parents of kids younger than traditional school-age wanted to find support for the unschooling lifestyle (mindful or consensual parenting), only to be told that "if your kids aren't yet school-age, then you're not unschooling -- it's about parenting." So, Danielle started a group to speak to those parents of very young children who planned to unschool when their kids reached school age and wanted to be already living an unschooling life.
Shine is a different list from the others, and I remain active there. It tends to be a gentler approach for those folks who feel a need for that. Still, no one recommends that unschooling a child is 'anything goes' and to hell with other people's rights to be safe vs. a child's 'right' to explore the entire world all the time.
All that aside, I think it is fair to say the message has become diluted. I'm not sure how it happened, or how to return to a saner place, but I do see instances where 'unschooled' appears to be an excuse to allow a child to be rude, unkind and abusive to others, and I have seen some instances where a child has to go far beyond the pale to get a parent's attention. I think those are likely parents who would be absent even if their child was in school, so unschooling is no different for them. Except that it lets them think they're giving their child some grand adventure.
*****
I think it's best to be around unschoolers whose kids are older, who have unschooled a long time, than around families whose kids are all young, if people want to gain faith in unschooling as a longterm philosophy and practice. It is possible--I' m guessing somewhat--that lists with more young children have fostered misunderstandings about *how* older unschoolers got to the point of trusting their children's judgment.
****
I agree. It's even better if the more experienced parents find a way to present what they do as mindful parenting -- as part of an unschooling philosophy -- in a way that doesn't result in parents of very young kids feeling they shouldn't be there, because they're not yet unschooling (since the kids are 'too young').
Sylvia
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*****
I'm no longer active at AU, but remember that it grew out of a time when parents of kids younger than traditional school-age wanted to find support for the unschooling lifestyle (mindful or consensual parenting), only to be told that "if your kids aren't yet school-age, then you're not unschooling -- it's about parenting." So, Danielle started a group to speak to those parents of very young children who planned to unschool when their kids reached school age and wanted to be already living an unschooling life.
Shine is a different list from the others, and I remain active there. It tends to be a gentler approach for those folks who feel a need for that. Still, no one recommends that unschooling a child is 'anything goes' and to hell with other people's rights to be safe vs. a child's 'right' to explore the entire world all the time.
All that aside, I think it is fair to say the message has become diluted. I'm not sure how it happened, or how to return to a saner place, but I do see instances where 'unschooled' appears to be an excuse to allow a child to be rude, unkind and abusive to others, and I have seen some instances where a child has to go far beyond the pale to get a parent's attention. I think those are likely parents who would be absent even if their child was in school, so unschooling is no different for them. Except that it lets them think they're giving their child some grand adventure.
*****
I think it's best to be around unschoolers whose kids are older, who have unschooled a long time, than around families whose kids are all young, if people want to gain faith in unschooling as a longterm philosophy and practice. It is possible--I' m guessing somewhat--that lists with more young children have fostered misunderstandings about *how* older unschoolers got to the point of trusting their children's judgment.
****
I agree. It's even better if the more experienced parents find a way to present what they do as mindful parenting -- as part of an unschooling philosophy -- in a way that doesn't result in parents of very young kids feeling they shouldn't be there, because they're not yet unschooling (since the kids are 'too young').
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]