Bill Ellis

On 13, Oct 2007, at 8:31 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> ... the drop outs I've known in my life have tended toward shame
> (ashamed
> of themselves for "being failures" or ashamed ... [snip]

BE:
First I'd like to point out that an "unschooler" is not the same as
a"drop-out."
Most unschoolers an self-learners at the highest level. They simply
choose
what they want to learn and their interested parents learn with them.

But my real message in this post is to not denigrate 'drop outs.' They
do better
than homeschoolers in proving schools and schooling are not needed even
in
the home. A case in point is a young man I know who refused to go to
high
school. He stayed home with his electronic games and gadgets staying up
until early morning with them. After 4 years of this he took the SATs.
He got
700 on the math, and 700 on the verbal. And is now continuing his
college
courses with not much trouble and limited attendance.

Just on case in point.

Bill Ellis
If you would like to learn about the GaianParadigm see:
http://ezinearticles.com/?expert=Bill_Ellis

Sandra Dodd

-=-First I'd like to point out that an "unschooler" is not the same
as a"drop-out."
-=-

Really?
(Too obvious to point out on this list.)

-=-Most unschoolers an self-learners at the highest level. They simply
choose what they want to learn and their interested parents learn
with them.-=-

This isn't very useful. "Simply"? "Simply choose"? "Most..."
51%? 85%?


-=-But my real message in this post is to not denigrate 'drop outs.'
They
do better
than homeschoolers in proving schools and schooling are not needed even
in the home.-=-

They do? All drop outs or most?

These statements are stated in terms too definite for the subject.

Personal experiences are more useful on a list like this than
pronouncements. I wouldn't mention it if I weren't the listowner, I
think...

I have nothing against dropouts or unschoolers.
I do have something against people who make a lot of pretty noise
about unschooling and are pretty much doing diddly with their kids.

Sandra

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Jennifer Stone

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> I do have something against people who make a lot of pretty noise
> about unschooling and are pretty much doing diddly with their kids.
>
> Sandra

I'm curious. Could you expand on this Sandra? What kind of pretty
noise and what is "doing diddly?" :)

Sandra Dodd

-=-> I do have something against people who make a lot of pretty noise
> about unschooling and are pretty much doing diddly with their kids.
>
> Sandra

I'm curious. Could you expand on this Sandra? What kind of pretty
noise and what is "doing diddly?" :)
-=-

More talking than doing.

Hanging out with unschoolers and agreeing and nodding and smiling.

Not actually doing those things at home with the kids, but talking
the talk to get approval from other moms.

"doing diddly" is short for "not doing diddly-squat."

Sandra

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Deb Lewis

***I do have something against people who make a lot of pretty noise
about unschooling and are pretty much doing diddly with their kids.***

I haven't been making any pretty noises lately and while we've been
busy I have felt I'm not doing enough with Dylan in the way fun.

We spent a week or so doing maintenance at my mom's house, winter
weatherizing and stuff. We've been getting firewood for winter since
July, (during those times we could get into the woods)and we were
busy for a few days painting our kitchen.

We have a good time together, we talk and joke. While we were
painting we listened to cassette tapes Dylan made when he was four
and five. He was a reporter covering Godzilla's attack on Tokyo. We
laughed until we had tears squirting out our eyeballs.

But generally things have been lully.

A coworker of David's was injured. He'll recover but David knows him
well and knows the guy who squished him and saw the accident and was
traumatized by it some. Then, on his way home from work after a
twelve hour night shift he got smacked on the highway when a passing
car spun into his lane. He wasn't injured but was stiff and sore for
a few days. He's bummed about his car. It was a free car, and it's
old, but it was reliable and got thirty five miles to the gallon so,
was a good commuter for a guy who drives a hundred fifty miles to
work, one way. David hasn't been especially exciting at home the
last two weeks. <g> Then, our good friend, Mungus, my brothers dog,
had a big seizure and died. Mungus was our Frisbee buddy this last
year since my brothers work schedule changed and we volunteered to
walk him. He was a big goofy Lab. The world seems duller without
him.

So, Dylan and I went out for a day of fun Wednesday. We went to the
big city, (Missoula<g>) browsed the book stores, visited the comic
book store, looked at new video cameras, had breakfast and lunch and
dinner out. It was lovely.

And Friday Dylan's cousin called to invite him to her family cabin
for a last lake adventure. I wasn't feeling brave enough to get
into a kayak in that cold water but the young folks did and they got
wet (but recovered quickly) and had a great time.

I have two things planned this week with Dylan, an outing in another
town and a rock climbing day in Refrigerator Canyon, if the weather
doesn't turn ugly. Then we get company next week for three days.
I'm back in the mode of looking for fun things to do now though -
instead of just trying to get stuff done. <g> I think it would be
easy to let a busy life outpace the fun. This last week I've been
rewired for fun,and boy howdy I needed it. <g>

Deb Lewis

pentaitalia

> I have nothing against dropouts or unschoolers.
> I do have something against people who make a lot of pretty noise
> about unschooling and are pretty much doing diddly with their kids.
> > Sandra

I make lots of "pretty noise" about unschooling because I think
unschooling is a pretty thing ;) I am very unclear however on how
one
quantifies "diddly"? How little does one have to do with their
children to be considered "doing diddly"?
How much is enough? How little is not enough? Not to mention,
enough
to whom?
I don't "do" alot with my kids. The 5 of them, aged 5 through 12,
have
so much on the go on their own that I seem to spend alot of my time
observing them, and cleaning up after their creative
bursts :) .....and this "diddly squat" that you have proposed could
be
precisely what an outsider would think I do with my kids.
I guess I just don't know anyone who blows the unschooling horn but
is
uninvolved with their kids, so I find it difficult to imagine just
what you mean.

Shonna

Sandra Dodd

-=-I guess I just don't know anyone who blows the unschooling horn but
is uninvolved with their kids, so I find it difficult to imagine just
what you mean.-=-

Good! I think it's great that you don't know any and it's fine that
you can't imagine what I mean. I would like to be that way again
myself. <g>

Sandra

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m.a. kactus

This one kind of hit close to home for me. I'm brand new to unschooling, and am still at the stage where I spend a lot of time questioning if I'm just taking the easy way out. Last night I got a call from my best friend who was shaking--I could hear it in her voice--with frustration over her daughter's schoolwork. The daughter "wasn't trying," "is just acting dumb so she doesn't have to do her homework," and other expressions of anger.

And honestly, when my daughter was in school I'd often feel the same way, even knowing how smart she is, and curious about the world! I'd have to leave the room at homework time because I'd get so angry. Especially around testing time, when my daughter had to do all this review of stuff that was just to satisfy the No Child Left Behind laws, I would dread the end of the school day because for me the stress was just starting, but for my daughter it was just a continuation of the stress she was always under.

And listening to my friend's anger and frustration I felt so grateful that we don't have to go through that anymore. But this is the same friend who--bless her heart, I love her but I disagree with her--thinks that unschooling is just a cop-out, because how am I going to know my daughter is learning anything if I don't have her tested, tested, tested. And other well-meaning friends who act like they've never heard of such a thing as organic learning, letting my daughter's fine, curious mind take her in its most natural course to embrace the whole world. They might not say it, but I hear in their voices the doubt, that maybe I'm just being lazy, "dropping out" myself by allowing my daughter to "drop out."

So it's kind of hard for me to hear that there really are parents who use homeschooling as an excuse to do nothing. I want to naturally rebel against such a thought because I'm afraid that maybe I'm kidding myself. It is easier to unschool, when you compare it to the constant stress and frustration of homework and testing and evaluations and parent/teacher conferences. It is easier when you don't have to dress your kids in 20 layers of clothing on a frigid winter morning just so they can trudge outside before the sun's even fully up to catch the school bus. It's easier being able to get up when your body's rested instead of when the alarm tells you.

It's a lot easier to have a day that's structured around the body and the mind's natural rhythms than some arbitrary schedule. So does being grateful for that mean that I'm just naturally lazy, that I don't want to make the effort?

Mary



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Julie

--- In [email protected], "pentaitalia" <shonnalee@...>
wrote:
>
> > I have nothing against dropouts or unschoolers.
> > I do have something against people who make a lot of pretty
noise
> > about unschooling and are pretty much doing diddly with their
kids.
> > > Sandra
>
> I make lots of "pretty noise" about unschooling because I think
> unschooling is a pretty thing ;) I am very unclear however on how
> one
> quantifies "diddly"? How little does one have to do with their
> children to be considered "doing diddly"?
> How much is enough? How little is not enough? Not to mention,
> enough
> to whom?
> I don't "do" alot with my kids. The 5 of them, aged 5 through 12,
> have
> so much on the go on their own that I seem to spend alot of my
time
> observing them, and cleaning up after their creative
> bursts :) .....and this "diddly squat" that you have proposed
could
> be
> precisely what an outsider would think I do with my kids.
> I guess I just don't know anyone who blows the unschooling horn
but
> is
> uninvolved with their kids, so I find it difficult to imagine just
> what you mean.
>
> Shonna

Hi all, I am new to this list and have been watching quietly for a
couple of weeks now. I hope this first post of mine makes sense,
but I wanted to say that what I think Sandra means by "making a lot
of pretty noise........and doing diddly" with their kids is when
parents talk the talk, without walking the walk. In other words,
they appear to know all about unschooling, singing its praises and
appearing to be totally committed to living an unschooling life with
their kids when they are in the company of others;but,when it boils
down to it, they tend to be too busy to answer their childrens
questions, take their children out anywhere, get down on the floor
and play games with them, make a mess with them, explore with them,
or any of the other wonderful, normal, things that make up
unschooling. To put it bluntly, they are hypocrites, and sadly,
there are a few around, who the unschooling way of life really
appeals to because it makes things easier for them, rather than
because it is better for their kids. I speak strongly about this
because I do know of such a parent who, when in a large group, tells
a totally different story about what she and her kids do all day,
than what actually goes on (I know her well!). I think that is what
Sandra meant.

Julie
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think Sandra means by "making a lot
of pretty noise........and doing diddly" with their kids is when
parents talk the talk, without walking the walk-=-

Yes.
Thank you.
That's what I mean.

Of another thing:

-=-And listening to my friend's anger and frustration I felt so
grateful that we don't have to go through that anymore. But this is
the same friend who--bless her heart, I love her but I disagree with
her--thinks that unschooling is just a cop-out, because how am I
going to know my daughter is learning anything if I don't have her
tested, tested, tested. -=-

You might ask her how she knew her child could sit up, roll over,
ride a bike, eat with a spoon or read.

-=-It's a lot easier to have a day that's structured around the body
and the mind's natural rhythms than some arbitrary schedule. So does
being grateful for that mean that I'm just naturally lazy, that I
don't want to make the effort?-=-

I don't think it means lazy at all! Making an effort to go against
the body against the mind's natural rhythms seems like a lot of
effort for bad results. <g>

If the rhythm of the day turns to sludge, though, and the
relationship between the parent and child isn't joyous, then that
natural learning isn't going to blossom.

If I put tomato seeds in the ground, in New Mexico, and I mark the
row and I say "I planted tomatoes," that's all well and good. Am I
going to harvest tomatoes? There are lots of considerations between
"seeds in ground" and the other end of summer. They're going to
need a LOT of water (where I am), and there are many ways the whole
project could go to hell.

Some people might have hydroponic tomatoes in a greenhouse, some
might live where the ground and the sky are so accommodating they can
just put the seeds in the ground and go away (except that the same
accommodations will let other plants grow up with them, so they might
need to weed way more than I would need to do).

Not every family's the same, but each parents needs to attend to what
their children's unschooling needs to be lively and good and happy
and productive, if unschooling is going to meet its promise and its
possibilities.

I've gone a week with nothing special happening, but that happened
after years of lots of special. And days off are no big deal.
Years off, that's a problem. <g>

Sandra




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