Susanna Rossen

Hi All!!!I have been reading all your posts and am fascinated with your live styles. I have been homeschooling for the past 30 years and have 4 adult children now and 2 latelings. We raised 4 children in the jungle of belize at the edge of the sea. We had no "normal" textbooks and pretty well followed our childrens interests where ever they led intellectually and practically We had however ground rules ,which we did not have to lay out to them because the whole village lived them including us. Our house was mostly full of everybody's kids because we had activities and toys that were new from time to time. Our friends came over and we never felt that we had to apologise for ANYTHING. Out ultimate goal as parents has always been to accomodate the childrens interests and at the same time help shape their characters so that we all might have equal rights. Now when I started reading ( with great interest I might add) I have noticed that some of your children shape you. It seems odd to me and I just wonder if this can be good when you have to curb eg. you husbands interest, innocent and equal it might be to the childrens, in order to provide the children with all the space and time they need to develop theirs. Balance is a good thing. Stepping back is a good thing to learn for kids( all things beeing equal). Let them help clean up the messy house so that Dad can have HIS friends over and be who he is.They will gain a lot. I am expecting to be soooo shot down, but I felt I wanted to share this. Peace and light to all Susanna Mondine


Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:57:30 +0000From: [email protected]: [email protected]: [AlwaysLearning] Digest Number 2668








Learning All the Time

Messages In This Digest (5 Messages)


1.1.
Re: Have To's, Home Perceptions WAS TV/Videos Games in Public Places From: kacsshultz

2a.
Re: it's official/i'm feeling Inactive as his facilitator From: jenstarc4
2b.
Re: it's official/i'm feeling Inactive as his facilitator From: halfshadow1
2c.
Re: it's official/i'm feeling Inactive as his facilitator From: schuyliz2

3a.
Re: Honoring all needs in the moment From: jenstarc4
View All Topics | Create New Topic
Messages


1.1.

Re: Have To's, Home Perceptions WAS TV/Videos Games in Public Places
Posted by: "kacsshultz" kashultz@... kacsshultz
Sun Oct 7, 2007 8:25 am (PST)
I so appreciate both ways of looking at this.To clarify more (and some of this is just me digging into this and thinking it through), I think it is partly a matter of just being mentally prepared for these situations and partly a relationship/needs matter. For the most part, I love our messy home now. I look around and see all of the things that the kids play with, their setups, their projects, and it is all part of the amazing life energy that is going on. Of course I want to keep things functional for the kids, but that doesn't mean clean lines and empty surfaces anymore, it is more about making sure that I know where all the specific Barbie, or action figure or game parts might be, and be able to access certain art supplies or a specfic coloring book or the funnel or our bin of rocks, whatever. This is an improvement, and I have finally gotten to the point where I greet each day with the sole goal of meeting the kids immediate needs, and helping them do whatever they want as the very first item on my agenda, with everything else falling far to the bottom (well, except feeding the cats and the fish too).We also have numerous people in the building who we've kind of "let into the circle" and they've been really supportive and positive about the kind of rich environment we've created with our kids. That is very reinforcing. They get it. Others, though, do not, and probably never will, so I guess part of what I am feeling is defensiveness of our lifestyle, and a need to keep those types of people away from us. Sometimes, there is an incident which pierces our little bubble, so to speak, and I feel the need to provide an introduction to our home that will help the person to reconcile what they might have expected and what they are witnessing, and I guess it is just lack of practice that makes it awkward for me. For the last few years, I've been pretty successful at defending our little nest from outside intrusion, so I haven't had too many of these incidents, but enough to alert me to my mental workings during thm. Just having thought through the process is extremely helpful, as well as having specific ideas about what to say that I can tweak and make my own. On the relationship/needs side, my husband is in sales, and so all of his world is centered around relationships with people, and he is truly energized by being someone that knows everyone, talks with everyone and is part of a large community/network. He has a very open welcoming personality, is always helping people with projects and in the middle of things. I want to support his openness, and I guess maybe sometimes I feel like we are letting him down in a way, by not being the open welcoming home that might better serve his needs. I want to support him, and to help all of our lives be bigger and meet our needs. For him, that means people and relationships and a home where we can enjoy those things. Maybe that's the reason that, while I have already prioritized administrative and homekeeping items fairly low, I still have this residual concern.I realize too, that it's a huge matter of timing and a cycle in our lives. Like I said, I am just starting to get some really decent sleep, and my efficiency level is building, so I can keep up with things a lot more than six months ago. However, I realized that just being able to keep up doesn't eliminate the mental barriers, and truly, it is those that I want to abolish as we go forward.Thank you so much,Kelly--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:>> >We live in an active condo building that attracts a lot of design-> >oriented people, which tend to be kind of focused on appearances.> >Having been there for a while, we have lots of people that are> >acquaintances that sometimes stop by, vendors, our building engineer,> >and old or new friends that we might want to invite over too.<> > Gotta just get over this one sister.> > ------------------------------------------> > People don't have to get over anything, really.> > It's a matter of priorities. If what the building engineer or a new > friend thinks of the appearance of your apartment is going to be a > primary consideration, that's absolutely doable. It doesn't > support or promote unschooling, but it's doable.> > > > You might have to get over it if you really want to put your children > first.> > > > Most people don't put their children first, and nobody "has" to.> > Sandra> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>

Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (218)

2a.

Re: it's official/i'm feeling Inactive as his facilitator
Posted by: "jenstarc4" jenstarc4@... jenstarc4
Sun Oct 7, 2007 2:34 pm (PST)
>He doesn't really ask alot of questions. I asked him if there was> something he wanted to learn more about and he said no. I told him> that i am here and i will help him find what he needs to know and i> will always help him. I asked him if there's anything he wants to> learn today and he said no. I think i'm just feeling inactive as a> facilatator(sp). Hope this makes sense.> thanks,Heather>What does he like to do? That's where you should start. I have one daughter who didn't/doesn't ask a lot of questions, wasn't/isn't really obvious in her learning patterns. She quietly intakes everything around her though, absorbs the world in her own way, remembers EVERYTHING, and notices everything around her. I think that is largely because she isn't asking and talking all the time.I have another daughter who asks and talks all the time, is really obvious in her learning patterns, and says what she knows and sees. Both of them are learning all the time without me directing them. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring them either. I play with them and talk to them and watch movies with them and go to parks and stores and drives in the car. We DO things together. Just because a kid is suddenly "school" age, doesn't mean your life should change dramatically. Just continue doing stuff together that you guys like to do. From that you will find his passions and see the learning happening.

Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (8)
2b.

Re: it's official/i'm feeling Inactive as his facilitator
Posted by: "halfshadow1" halfshadow1@... halfshadow1
Sun Oct 7, 2007 2:38 pm (PST)
Haven't you been on this list a while? Do you really expect him tosay "Today I want to learn about bugs"? yup, i should know better.Some old school stuff snuck back in.I am reading those strewing andnest pages now.--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd<Sandra@...> wrote:>> -=-You can learn anything you want but i want you> too want to learn something each day. Boy, that sounds dumb when i> write it down.-=-> > Yeah, don't say that.> If you wanted to give him a way to STOP wanting to learn, that might > be the way to go...> > Don't say ANYthing about learning. Don't say "you can" or "I wish > you would." Just make your life full and interesting and he will learn.> > -=-I think what i'm> expecting is for him to come up to me and say mom, today i want to> learn to read or i want to learn about bugs and stuff like that.-=-> > Haven't you been on this list a while? Do you really expect him to > say "Today I want to learn about bugs"?> > -=-I asked him if there was> something he wanted to learn more about and he said no. I told him> that i am here and i will help him find what he needs to know and i> will always help him. I asked him if there's anything he wants to> learn today and he said no. I think i'm just feeling inactive as a> facilatator(sp).-=-> > Don't facilitate school-style learning, and don't wait for him to ask > you.> Don't offer to help him learn, just DO it.> > http://sandradodd.com/strewing> http://sandradodd.com/nest> > Do it in ways that don't show.> > Sandra> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>

Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (8)
2c.

Re: it's official/i'm feeling Inactive as his facilitator
Posted by: "schuyliz2" s.waynforth@... schuyliz2
Mon Oct 8, 2007 3:05 am (PST)
You might want to think about what you think learning looks like. It sounds like you are expecting him to decide that learning is a formalized experience where he actively chooses to do something with the end goal of having obtained knowledge from that experience. It only looks like that when you are in a formalized learning arena. Wild and free learning does not always garner a skill or a finite body of knowledge at the end of the day. It is like gathering pieces to a bunch of different puzzles all the time. So playing with lego and sitting together with your knees touching and talking about which color you need to build whatever structure you are building may get you into a discussion about being a brick layer or a mason or it may be a conversation about how you want whatever you are building to look like or about how many thin bricks you need to balance out a thick brick or maybe just about how the bumps feel under your fingers. And none of that looks like learning, it just looks like two people absorbed in a shared activity with a little bit of conversation occasionally flowing between them. But there are pieces of a lot of puzzles coming into play in that afternoon. There is a huge amount of math going on, sorting and fractions and statistics (if you are looking for a single color among many, how many pieces do you have to look through to find the one--so distribution as well), there is social learning, sideways conversations, there is trust being learnt, the knowledge that a mom is someone who will sit and sort and play and be just with you--a powerful piece of learning. There is more that goes on in that moment, in that playful, concentrating moment, than could possibly be going on if you were to decide to study just one piece of that puzzle. And it builds on itself. The knowledge that your son and you gain in a day of playing and talking and being, it becomes a part of a whole picture of the world. So, knowing that it takes 4 little bricks to make a whole brick is a puzzle piece that can be used later when he is thinking about it taking 4 quarters to make a dollar, maybe. Or seeing the different distribution of bricks in time and space may be something that can be applied to sorting a completely different order of things at some other point. It all matters. It all is a part of knowledge and thought and awareness and a part who he is and who he is becoming just as it is a part of you and who you are becoming. There is nothing that a unit study can give you that curiousity and exploring can't--well except some sort of certificate of knowledge transfer, I guess. I have two children who have learned without a handed down design for, well, the eldest for 10 years now. In the past week or so Simon (the eldest) has begun to read. He never once asked to learn to read, he never once approached me with that desire. He put together all of the tools and pieces to that puzzle in his own way and in his own time and while the puzzle is in no way complete, my puzzle is in no way complete, he has come to a point where he can interpret English as a written word. Both he and his sister have a relationship with numbers that is so intuitive, is so honest, I could not have trained them for that. And they both recognize that knowledge is not something that is handed down, they recognize that knowledge is something you pick up, it is something that is tasted and felt and defined by you, by the individual. And that is probably the most important piece of any puzzle that they can carry.Schuylerwww.waynforth.blogspot.com------------------------Hi,My son turned 6yo. yesterday. So, i guess we are officiallyunschoolers now. I wonder if i should do anything different? Sometimesi want to say to him: You can learn anything you want but i want youtoo want to learn something each day. Boy, that sounds dumb when iwrite it down. I know he's learning all the time. I think what i'mexpecting is for him to come up to me and say mom, today i want tolearn to read or i want to learn about bugs and stuff like that. Hedoesn't really ask alot of questions. I asked him if there wassomething he wanted to learn more about and he said no. I told himthat i am here and i will help him find what he needs to know and iwill always help him. I asked him if there's anything he wants tolearn today and he said no. I think i'm just feeling inactive as afacilatator(sp). Hope this makes sense.

Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (8)

3a.

Re: Honoring all needs in the moment
Posted by: "jenstarc4" jenstarc4@... jenstarc4
Sun Oct 7, 2007 3:04 pm (PST)
Sometimes, I have purposely done the less desirable task first and used the fun one as the last one. That way you can spend more time in the toy store checking things out without the worry of any of the kids wanting to go back.I would inform all the kids of the agenda of the day and how long you think would be good for each destination, allowing more time at the funnest and last one.I have had to deal with this very same issue a lot over the years because my kids are 7 yrs apart in age and their needs are soo totally different that it's hard to combine things.What we do lately, is wait for dad to be home on evenings or weekends to do stuff, so that I can go with one child and not the other. During the daytime I can take the younger daughter and leave the older one home and that seems to work good too. I know that may not work with your age group, but soon it can.Other than that, I would suggest bouncing it back to the older kids on how to handle the problem. They may have some good ideas on how to accomodate the needs of everyone. Try to keep it fun and light.Little kids may have a harder time in transition, so perhaps this should be the focus for a while, finding ways of transitioning.For a long time now, we've been starting at the back of toy stores and working our way to the front and out the door. It seems to work pretty good. I also like to keep distractors in my bag or purse or pocket. As soon as the younger child seems to be feeling the pull to go back or stay and be upset about leaving, I pull something out of my bag of tricks as a distractor. I might even say that I have something cool out in the car, if there is actually something cool out in the car. I try to keep hidden treasures out in the car for those occasions. Food is a good incentive to leave a store. The draw of something yummy waiting out in the car for you can be a nice incentive too.I don't know if any of those things will work for you, those are just some of the things that I've used to help a younger kid leave a place that they want to stay in when others are ready to leave.

Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (2)


Recent Activity


12
New MembersVisit Your Group


Ads on Yahoo!
Learn more now.
Reach customers
searching for you.

Yahoo! Groups
Join a Health
& Fitness Group
or create your own.

Yahoo! Groups
Be a Better Planet
Share with others
Help the Planet.


Need to Reply?
Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in the Daily Digest.
Create New Topic | Visit Your Group on the Web
Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Individual | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
_________________________________________________________________
Send a smile, make someone laugh, have some fun! Start now!
http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 8, 2007, at 4:51 PM, Susanna Rossen wrote:

> Now when I started reading ( with great interest I might add) I
> have noticed that some of your children shape you. It seems odd to
> me and I just wonder if this can be good when you have to curb eg.
> you husbands interest, innocent and equal it might be to the
> childrens, in order to provide the children with all the space and
> time they need to develop theirs.

I think it sounds like that's the goal because we're trying to help
parents let go of the mindset that children's needs are met when it's
convenient for the parents.

We're trying to get to the idea that everyone's needs matter, but the
transition period is often about seeing how conventional parenting
tramples all over kids' needs and really devalues them. The first
step is valuing children's needs.

Another step is helping parents see that their world isn't full of
"have tos" that need to come first: all those things the parents
"have to" do and the kids need to put up with before the kids can
even think of the parents finding time for the kids (or themselves).
Parents often feel like they're devoting their lives to their
families doing all the necessary things (shopping, cooking, cleaning,
soccer games, etc. that the kids don't even appreciate!) that when
the kids ask for what feels like more (and the parents aren't even
getting to meet their own needs) the parents feel tapped out.

Lots of people are raised with the unspoken idea that when they're
adults it will be their turn to get their way. That's because their
parents were given the same unspoken promise, so they take their turn
(and meet their kids wants when it's convenient) at the expense of
their kids.

Parent need help out of that "It's my turn!" mindset before they can
even begin to come up with solutions that take everyone's needs into
consideration.

> Let them help clean up the messy house so that Dad can have HIS
> friends over and be who he is.
>
When we value everyone's needs, we can do things like that as a gift
for each other. It does work marvelously :-)

Most conventionally parents do the "Clean up so the parents can meet
their needs" stuff. Because adult needs -- in conventional parenting
-- top kid needs. What they *don't* do is treat their kids needs with
the same respect. They prioritize kids needs and meet them based on
what the parent values, not on what the child values

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gold Standard

>>I have been reading all your posts and am fascinated with your live
styles... We raised 4 children in the jungle of belize >>at the edge of the
sea.<<

Okay, so now many of us are fascinated with YOUR former life. I think many
respectful parenting ideas, like attachment parenting, have come from
looking at more natural community environments.

>> We had however ground rules ,which we did not have to lay out to them
because the whole village lived them including us.<<

Yes, that makes sense that what we create here in our homes may be similar
to what a community may naturally create together. Everyone wants to be
respected and treated well.

>>Our friends came over and we never felt that we had to apologise for
ANYTHING.<<

I think it is a cultural thing here (and other places where "things" began
to win out over people) to feel like houses and cars should look like
Currier and Ives. It's a bit of a sickness I think...a cultural sickness.
But not for everyone! And that is something that this list helps a whole lot
of people with.

>>Now when I started reading ( with great interest I might add) I have
noticed that some of your children shape you.<<

On first glance my thought was "Yes...and?" Many people haven't had a role
model to follow in how to parent well, and need to lose a lot of what they
have programmed in them (like the house comes before the kids), and
therefore they have to watch, listen and learn from their kids, and listen
to their natural instincts, which have often been buried. And that is one
way the our children shape us.

But on second glance, I see that you are saying that the parent's good sense
should already be in place, and the true and natural shaping should already
be complete when having children. That would certainly be ideal, but
unfortunately, many people are somewhat broken in the parenting department
and are learning as they go, and this list is a tool on that journey.

>>It seems odd to me and I just wonder if this can be good when you have to
curb eg. you husbands interest, innocent and
>>equal it might be to the childrens, in order to provide the children with
all the space and time they need to develop
>> theirs. Balance is a good thing.<<

Yes, the balance part. The typical scenario right now in this country is
that the balance is way over in the parent department. Not for everyone of
course, but that continues to be where the pendulum is right now in most
places where this list would be read, and so you will see more advice about
listening to the kids' needs than listening to the parents' needs.

In my home, where I have 4 teenagers, all of us get pretty good time spent
on our own interests, husband included. Sunday night, there were 5 extra
teenagers here, all unplanned, and my husband set up an assembly line for
making colorful sparklers. He was doing this for himself and one of our sons
at first, but suddenly there were lots of people interested so he just made
the whole thing bigger. It was great fun and started with my husband's
interest. Earlier in the day I spent hours cleaning a couple of spaces that
were filled up with stuff and this actually ended up being the space where
everyone worked on the fireworks. It all flowed naturally.

My kids happily support their Dad's endeavors because their Dad has so
strongly supported theirs. It is easy and natural. He has an electronics
passion and a space set up just for that. Just like my son has a number of
guitars and amps that are his passion and my other son has a plethora of
video games and systems.

>>Let them help clean up the messy house so that Dad can have HIS friends
over and be who he is.<<

I think a key word here is "let". If they aren't made to, they are more
likely to want to. Max, 17, automatically helped me clean yesterday. I left
the space for a while and a whole counter had been cleared off by Hannah,
15. I never asked them. They just saw what I was doing and helped.

Jacki

Sandra Dodd

When you respond to a digest, please put a subject on the e-mail.

-=-Balance is a good thing.-=-

http://sandradodd.com/balance

-=-Stepping back is a good thing to learn for kids( all things beeing
equal).-=-

They can't help but learn that. Parents don't have to create
situations so that they learn that.

Nothing is ever 50/50. Any couple or friendship that aims for 50/50
is likely to fail. If each person give what at first might feel like
80% or 90% or all will find that the other person is putting that
much in too. Aiming for giving 60% seems to create resentment, and
counting, and measuring. Giving wholly makes a difference, but the
majority of people are unwilling to even consider it.

Most families don't even consider giving children 50% of anything.
The parents have 95% and the kids get the dregs, or time and money
and attention and respect.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=->>Now when I started reading ( with great interest I might add) I
have
noticed that some of your children shape you.<<

-=-On first glance my thought was "Yes...and?" -=-


I've seen people say that they will have children and then go back
exactly as they were, or that they will work their children into
their lives.

Someone who has been a parent *should* be changed by that
experience. Having a child without changing seems somewhere in the
ignorant-to-criminal range. Even if someone has a child and never
gets to be with that child, the person is still changed.

Sandra





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

midsummernight50

--- In [email protected], "Gold Standard" <jacki@...> wrote:
>
> >>I have been reading all your posts and am fascinated with your live
> styles... We raised 4 children in the jungle of belize >>at the edge
of the
> sea.<<
>
> Okay, so now many of us are fascinated with YOUR former life. I
think many
> respectful parenting ideas, like attachment parenting, have come from
> looking at more natural community environments.
>
> >> We had however ground rules ,which we did not have to lay out to them
> because the whole village lived them including us.<<
>
> Yes, that makes sense that what we create here in our homes may be
similar
> to what a community may naturally create together. Everyone wants to be
> respected and treated well.
>
> >>Our friends came over and we never felt that we had to apologise for
> ANYTHING.<<
>
> I think it is a cultural thing here (and other places where "things"
began
> to win out over people) to feel like houses and cars should look like
> Currier and Ives. It's a bit of a sickness I think...a cultural
sickness.
> But not for everyone! And that is something that this list helps a
whole lot
> of people with.
>
> >>Now when I started reading ( with great interest I might add) I have
> noticed that some of your children shape you.<<
>
> On first glance my thought was "Yes...and?" Many people haven't had
a role
> model to follow in how to parent well, and need to lose a lot of
what they
> have programmed in them (like the house comes before the kids), and
> therefore they have to watch, listen and learn from their kids, and
listen
> to their natural instincts, which have often been buried. And that
is one
> way the our children shape us.
>
> But on second glance, I see that you are saying that the parent's
good sense
> should already be in place, and the true and natural shaping should
already
> be complete when having children. That would certainly be ideal, but
> unfortunately, many people are somewhat broken in the parenting
department
> and are learning as they go, and this list is a tool on that journey.
>
> >>It seems odd to me and I just wonder if this can be good when you
have to
> curb eg. you husbands interest, innocent and
> >>equal it might be to the childrens, in order to provide the
children with
> all the space and time they need to develop
> >> theirs. Balance is a good thing.<<
>
> Yes, the balance part. The typical scenario right now in this country is
> that the balance is way over in the parent department. Not for
everyone of
> course, but that continues to be where the pendulum is right now in most
> places where this list would be read, and so you will see more
advice about
> listening to the kids' needs than listening to the parents' needs.
>
> In my home, where I have 4 teenagers, all of us get pretty good time
spent
> on our own interests, husband included. Sunday night, there were 5 extra
> teenagers here, all unplanned, and my husband set up an assembly
line for
> making colorful sparklers. He was doing this for himself and one of
our sons
> at first, but suddenly there were lots of people interested so he
just made
> the whole thing bigger. It was great fun and started with my husband's
> interest. Earlier in the day I spent hours cleaning a couple of
spaces that
> were filled up with stuff and this actually ended up being the space
where
> everyone worked on the fireworks. It all flowed naturally.
>
> My kids happily support their Dad's endeavors because their Dad has so
> strongly supported theirs. It is easy and natural. He has an electronics
> passion and a space set up just for that. Just like my son has a
number of
> guitars and amps that are his passion and my other son has a plethora of
> video games and systems.
>
> >>Let them help clean up the messy house so that Dad can have HIS
friends
> over and be who he is.<<
>
> I think a key word here is "let". If they aren't made to, they are more
> likely to want to. Max, 17, automatically helped me clean yesterday.
I left
> the space for a while and a whole counter had been cleared off by
Hannah,
> 15. I never asked them. They just saw what I was doing and helped.
>
> Jacki
>
Got you! And thanks for your reply. Susanna Mondine