Sunday Cote

This kind of relates to the thread about our kids in public places and I
thought I'd share an observation I've had recently with my own son.

Before I took limits off of TV and video games, it used to really bother
me when we went to the dentist or hair cutters and the TV was on in the
waiting area or the kids had an opportunity to play video games while
they waited or got their hair cut. "How will they ever learn to just be
with their own company and not have to be constantly entertained?" I
thought. (I was deschooling from my Waldorf influences.) Then I
learned more about unschooling and gradually released control of my
children's viewing and gaming habits. After that, when we'd go to one
of these places, I appreciated that my children had something they
enjoyed doing while waiting. But secretly (dang that Waldorf!) I think
I still wondered whether they would ever be content with doing these
mundane things without constant distraction.

Well, just recently I took my boys to get their hair cut at one of those
kids' places with the games at each station. When my 9 year old was
asked which game he wanted to play while getting his hair cut, he said,
"None. I don't want to play right now." Judging from her reaction, I
don't think the hairdresser had ever heard a boy turn down the
opportunity to play video games. During the haircut he engaged her in
conversation, chatting about his new dog and how he wanted his hair cut.
Then today, he had a dentist appointment. They've always had video
games in the waiting room, but they've recently added some features to
the examine rooms as well. There are now Gameboys at each chair and DVD
screens mounted on the ceiling that the kids can watch while laying flat
on their backs. When offered the Gameboy, Connor declined. Then when
the assistant lowered him on his back she switched on the DVD player
without even asking. When he saw it come on, he said, "I don't want to
watch anything. Can you turn that off, please?" Again, judging by the
staff's reaction, I don't think they've experienced that very often.
So my no-limit boy is indeed setting his own internal limits and
surprising a great many adults with his choices along the way!

Thanks to all those who have walked this path ahead of me and helped me
gain the confidence to just trust my kids,
Sunday
Mom to Connor (9) and Treyson (5)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cecegary

Thanks for posting this, Sunday. I still struggle with this issue a
lot. Some days my kids turn the TV off and start playing together or
with toys by themselves, and some days the TV is on most of the day.
Once in a while I just can't handle it anymore and suggest we turn it
off, which they're usually quite eager to do. ("Do you mind if we turn
this off? I just need a break from it." "Sure, mom.") I'm just not sure
about their abilities to set their own limits all the time.

Chelsea

--- In [email protected], "Sunday Cote" <sundaycote@...>
wrote:
> So my no-limit boy is indeed setting his own internal limits and
> surprising a great many adults with his choices along the way!
>
> Thanks to all those who have walked this path ahead of me and helped
me
> gain the confidence to just trust my kids,
> Sunday
> Mom to Connor (9) and Treyson (5)
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Once in a while I just can't handle it anymore and suggest we turn it
off, which they're usually quite eager to do. ("Do you mind if we turn
this off? I just need a break from it." "Sure, mom.")-=-

My mom used to make me stop reading books because it was bothering
her that I was reading longer than she would have.

Granted, reading a book doesn't make as much noise as a TV does. But
the parental control is the same.

Is your house big enough that you could get away from the TV? Can
you put a TV in a place where you can get away from it?

-=-I'm just not sure about their abilities to set their own limits
all the time.-=-

If you're looking for the result "Children set their own limits,"
unschooling probably isn't the way to go.
If you're looking for the result "Children make thoughtful choices,"
it can be fantastic!

Their thoughtful choices might not look like the limits you imagined
and hoped they might set to please you, though.

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sunday Cote

>>>If you're looking for the result "Children set their own limits,"
unschooling probably isn't the way to go.
If you're looking for the result "Children make thoughtful choices,"
it can be fantastic!<<<

Thanks for adding this, Sandra. After I posted yesterday, I was
thinking that it wasn't really about Connor setting his own limits.
Making thoughtful choices is a much better way to describe it.

>>>Their thoughtful choices might not look like the limits you imagined

and hoped they might set to please you, though.<<<

I really love this distinction. That has indeed been a huge part of my
journey -- letting go of MY expectations of what their choices should
look like.

Sunday

Pamela Sorooshian

If they were watching a math show on tv, a series of math lectures,
for example, would you be as bothered by the noise? Would you put up
with it because they were learning math? Would you go find a quiet
place for yourself and leave them to it?

-pam

On Sep 13, 2007, at 6:27 AM, cecegary wrote:

> Thanks for posting this, Sunday. I still struggle with this issue a
> lot. Some days my kids turn the TV off and start playing together or
> with toys by themselves, and some days the TV is on most of the day.
> Once in a while I just can't handle it anymore and suggest we turn it
> off, which they're usually quite eager to do. ("Do you mind if we turn
> this off? I just need a break from it." "Sure, mom.") I'm just not
> sure
> about their abilities to set their own limits all the time.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amy

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> If they were watching a math show on tv, a series of math lectures,
> for example, would you be as bothered by the noise? Would you put up
> with it because they were learning math? Would you go find a quiet
> place for yourself and leave them to it?
>
> -pam
>

Pam, this is a good point, but I'd prefer tv was less schooly. There
so much "preparing you for school" and "letters, letters, letters"
everything on there is trying to teach something, none of it is just
for fun. I think it would be easier for me to tolerate if it was just
entertaining.

Just my thoughts,
Amy

Sandra Dodd

-=-There
so much "preparing you for school" and "letters, letters, letters"
everything on there is trying to teach something, none of it is just
for fun.-=-

Nothing that artists work on for hours/weeks/months and that people
will pay to edit and that stations will pay to air and that
businesses will pay to sponsor is just for fun.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

>
>
> Pam, this is a good point, but I'd prefer tv was less schooly. There
> so much "preparing you for school" and "letters, letters, letters"
> everything on there is trying to teach something, none of it is just
> for fun. I think it would be easier for me to tolerate if it was just
> entertaining.
>

The question I asked, though, wasn't really for someone like you,
then. It was a question (to ask of themselves) for those who ARE
having a hard time with letting their kids watch a lot of tv, who say
that the tv being on "all the time" bothers them, who find that it is
difficult for them to accept that watching tv is really great for
their kids. The question was intended for those who are either still
restricting/limiting tv or are still finding that they have an urge
to do so.

Lots of parents' thinking is clouded when it comes to tv because they
are not seeing tv and their children directly, themselves, but are
seeing them through a veil composed of all kinds of scary, negative
warnings from "experts" about how terrible tv is for kids. Quite a
few of us conscientious parents could not, without real effort, look
very directly at our own kids or use our own brains to take an
unbiased look directly at tv and really think for ourselves about its
effect on our kids. "TV" has so much scary negativity built up around
it and so many parents are so convinced that tv-watching is going to
rot their kids' brains, turn their kids into addicts, make the kids
stupid, prevent them from learning to read, entice them to violence,
make them insensitive to violence, create avaricious and
materialistic uber-consumers out of them, or, at least, turn them
into smart-ass, rude kids like on some sitcoms.

One way to address some of those fears is to replace "TV" with
something else (like "math") and see how you'd react to that?

Unschoolers talk a lot about trusting our children. Children, usually
hyper-sensitive to hypocrisy in their adults, aren't likely to miss
it that their trust doesn't extend to choosing what and when to watch
tv.

Someone asked me at the Live and Learn Conference if I was saying
that they couldn't be unschoolers if they didn't have tv in their house.

Two part answer:
1. Is tv really harmful? Are you willing to honestly assess that
assumption? Are you willing to think for yourself about your own
unschooled child? Have you really logically thought through the
supposed dangers of tv and rationally, logically, examined how they
would really apply in your own real lives? Do you feel defensive
about limiting tv? Why? Can you let go of your "position" long enough
to truly consider the possibility that the limits and restrictions
might be harmful while tv might, in fact, provide many wonderful and
enriching experiences? I have evidence that tv is not necessarily
harmful - the evidence is my own three unschooled kids who have grown
up with unrestricted tv. They are voracious readers, articulate,
smart, nonviolent, nongreedy, courteous young adults.

2. As unschoolers, does "trust the children" really permeate your
household or is it a cute slogan to be ignored when parents feel a
little anxious? If you take your role as an unschooling parent
seriously, how can you possibly justify restricting or limiting
something that is SO wonderful as tv can be. And, especially, if your
child LOVES watching tv, how can you call yourself an unschooler who
supports your child's interests, if you are limiting him/her in
pursuing the very thing he/she is passionately interested in?

If your circumstances don't allow tv and/or if your kids truly have
no interest in it, then you can unschool without a tv. But if you're
restricting tv because of unfounded fears, then I think it does
contradict unschooling to keep such a grand part of the world, such
an amazing window to all kinds of things, away from your kids. John
Holt said, "Bring the world to our kids and our kids to the world."
TV is a spectacular way to do that.

-pam





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amy

Pam,
Thank you for your reply. It is a question for someone like me. I
have a really hard time with so much tv. It's not my favorite
activity, but I got a tv for my daughter (4) and I do not restrict
it.
<<<"If they were watching a math show on tv, a series of math
lectures...">>>
I just meant that replacing it with any other show (in my head)
wouldn't work for me because I find all that schooly stuff so
irritating. One reason I'm not sending her to school is so that she
doesn't have to have all these numbers and letters shoved down her
throat. But it doesn't seem to bother her. I don't know if it's
really free choice if you can only choose PBS or a movie, but that's
all I can afford right now.
I no longer believe all the negative things you mentioned, but the
amount of time is irritating.

<<<"The question I asked, though, wasn't really for someone like you,
then. It was a question (to ask of themselves) for those who ARE
having a hard time with letting their kids watch a lot of tv">>>

I'm not sure what you mean by someone like me, but perhaps I
shouldn't have said anything? I am having a hard time with it (why I
said "I think it would be easier for me to tolerate if it was just
entertaining."), I was just mentioning that the problem I have is
different than I thought it would be.

Is it really great? I don't know. I liked our life before we got
tv, but maybe she likes it more now.

Thanks,

~Amy


--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Pam, this is a good point, but I'd prefer tv was less schooly.
There
> > so much "preparing you for school" and "letters, letters, letters"
> > everything on there is trying to teach something, none of it is
just
> > for fun. I think it would be easier for me to tolerate if it was
just
> > entertaining.
> >
>
> The question I asked, though, wasn't really for someone like you,
> then. It was a question (to ask of themselves) for those who ARE
> having a hard time with letting their kids watch a lot of tv, who
say
> that the tv being on "all the time" bothers them, who find that it
is
> difficult for them to accept that watching tv is really great for
> their kids. The question was intended for those who are either
still
> restricting/limiting tv or are still finding that they have an
urge
> to do so.
>
> Lots of parents' thinking is clouded when it comes to tv because
they
> are not seeing tv and their children directly, themselves, but are
> seeing them through a veil composed of all kinds of scary,
negative
> warnings from "experts" about how terrible tv is for kids. Quite a
> few of us conscientious parents could not, without real effort,
look
> very directly at our own kids or use our own brains to take an
> unbiased look directly at tv and really think for ourselves about
its
> effect on our kids. "TV" has so much scary negativity built up
around
> it and so many parents are so convinced that tv-watching is going
to
> rot their kids' brains, turn their kids into addicts, make the
kids
> stupid, prevent them from learning to read, entice them to
violence,
> make them insensitive to violence, create avaricious and
> materialistic uber-consumers out of them, or, at least, turn them
> into smart-ass, rude kids like on some sitcoms.
>
> One way to address some of those fears is to replace "TV" with
> something else (like "math") and see how you'd react to that?
>
> Unschoolers talk a lot about trusting our children. Children,
usually
> hyper-sensitive to hypocrisy in their adults, aren't likely to
miss
> it that their trust doesn't extend to choosing what and when to
watch
> tv.
>
> Someone asked me at the Live and Learn Conference if I was saying
> that they couldn't be unschoolers if they didn't have tv in their
house.
>
> Two part answer:
> 1. Is tv really harmful? Are you willing to honestly assess that
> assumption? Are you willing to think for yourself about your own
> unschooled child? Have you really logically thought through the
> supposed dangers of tv and rationally, logically, examined how
they
> would really apply in your own real lives? Do you feel defensive
> about limiting tv? Why? Can you let go of your "position" long
enough
> to truly consider the possibility that the limits and restrictions
> might be harmful while tv might, in fact, provide many wonderful
and
> enriching experiences? I have evidence that tv is not necessarily
> harmful - the evidence is my own three unschooled kids who have
grown
> up with unrestricted tv. They are voracious readers, articulate,
> smart, nonviolent, nongreedy, courteous young adults.
>
> 2. As unschoolers, does "trust the children" really permeate your
> household or is it a cute slogan to be ignored when parents feel a
> little anxious? If you take your role as an unschooling parent
> seriously, how can you possibly justify restricting or limiting
> something that is SO wonderful as tv can be. And, especially, if
your
> child LOVES watching tv, how can you call yourself an unschooler
who
> supports your child's interests, if you are limiting him/her in
> pursuing the very thing he/she is passionately interested in?
>
> If your circumstances don't allow tv and/or if your kids truly
have
> no interest in it, then you can unschool without a tv. But if
you're
> restricting tv because of unfounded fears, then I think it does
> contradict unschooling to keep such a grand part of the world,
such
> an amazing window to all kinds of things, away from your kids.
John
> Holt said, "Bring the world to our kids and our kids to the
world."
> TV is a spectacular way to do that.
>
> -pam
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-One reason I'm not sending her to school is so that she
doesn't have to have all these numbers and letters shoved down her
throat. But it doesn't seem to bother her. I don't know if it's
really free choice if you can only choose PBS or a movie, but that's
all I can afford right now. -=-

How is that you only have PBS?

-=-One reason I'm not sending her to school is so that she
doesn't have to have all these numbers and letters shoved down her
throat.-=-

If you're not shoving numbers and letters down her throat, and she's
not in school, then there's no problem, right?
Does she know how to turn the TV off? If not, can she look away,
or walk away?

Unschooling shouldn't be the absence of anything that is discussed or
valued in school. It's about choices and alternate means of
acquisition of the same kinds of information kids learn in school,
and then tons-and-much more!

If an unschooling family avoids numbers and letters, how will a
child learn?

If someone is singing and playing and dancing about numbers and
letters, how is that "shoving down throats"?

Look at the little video on this page, which all my kids have seen
lots of times because it was on our best of Sesame Street video (home
made collection of people's favorite bits):
http://sandradodd.com/alphabet
It's beautiful and soothing and sweet.

-=-I no longer believe all the negative things you mentioned, but the
amount of time is irritating. -=-

This is contradictory, though. If you don't believe it's a negative,
how are you being irritated? There are other things you would
prefer, for reasons you should examine for the benefit of peace in
your own soul, and your home, and for your daughter's potential for joy.

-=-I liked our life before we got
tv, but maybe she likes it more now.
-=-

It doesn't have to be that one person's happiness is made of another
person's unhappiness. Please try to see yourself as your daughter's
partner and not see the TV as something separating you, but as
something you can share and appreciate together.

-=-"I think it would be easier for me to tolerate if it was just
entertaining."-=-

If children learn from playing (and thinking, hearing music, looking
at pictures, playing in the dirt, or the bathtub, or with dolls or
blocks or pipecleaners or bugs or old junkmail...) then "just
entertaining" is a worthy goal, but if you start to separate things
out by what *you* consider "just entertaining" and what you consider
schooly or potentially educational, you're still sorting.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

You seem still to be looking at the clock and the TV and the school
and your feelings instead of at your daughter herself.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 15, 2007, at 9:39 AM, Amy wrote:

> <<<"The question I asked, though, wasn't really for someone like you,
> then. It was a question (to ask of themselves) for those who ARE
> having a hard time with letting their kids watch a lot of tv">>>

>
> I'm not sure what you mean by someone like me, but perhaps I
> shouldn't have said anything?

I'm just offering ways to think about it, not saying anybody should
not have said anything.

Are you saying tv is overly "educational" for your taste?

I'm having trouble understanding how a tv can get only PBS and
movies? If you can get PBS, why don't you get other channels? But,
PBS is awesome - there is enough programming just on PBS to keep a
family happy for many many hours.

> I am having a hard time with it (why I
> said "I think it would be easier for me to tolerate if it was just
> entertaining."), I was just mentioning that the problem I have is
> different than I thought it would be.

Assuming you mean that PBS seems overly educational to you, another
thing for you to ask yourself is whether that is not just your own
baggage, having felt learning was being forced on you. Your child
doesn't have that baggage, of course, and, to her, tv is a choice
(unlike schooling was for you). PBS doesn't seem at all overly
educational to me - it seems filled with wondrous information and
ideas and the chance for me to learn a lot in a really pleasurable
way. But, I've long ago gotten over being resistant to learning (I'm
55 years old and have grown unschooled kids). Sounds, to me, like
you're likely still in reactive mode - still hurt by what school did
to you. I don't feel that even the most overtly educational programs
on PBS are shoving anything down kids' throats - not as long as there
is a power button on the tv <G>.

>
> Is it really great? I don't know. I liked our life before we got
> tv, but maybe she likes it more now.

Is she stopping you from doing the things you used to do? Is that
because she wants to watch certain shows? Then, yeah, that's because
she likes watching those shows more than whatever else it is that you
want her to be doing. So, her life is better.

Sometimes people don't do stuff, though, because they think the kid
is happy watching tv -- so parents don't provide as great an
environment as they would have without tv. It isn't the tv's fault,
or the child's fault, but the parents who are not doing their best to
offer a rich and full and stimulating life to their child.

So, there could be some guilt on the parents part that they are not
paying enough attention to their child, not offering an interesting
enough life.

Also, parents sometimes feel tv is coming between them and their
child - the parent claims not to like tv, but clearly the child does.
The parent ought to be supporting that interest and getting involved
and cuddling up and watching together and talking about it later and
building on it -- you might be finding dress-ups that relate to a
favorite show or character, you might find related books or games or
toys, you might make foods that were on a tv show -- supporting a
child's interests doesn't mean support everything except tv, but a
lot of times parents seem to have a very hands-off attitude about tv
as if it was something done by the child, in isolation. Then they
blame the tv for the child being isolated.

If it seems that PBS is shoving education down kids' throats, what
about science centers or museums? Do they feel the same way?

This seems like a throwing the baby out with the bathwater kind of
response.

It isn't LEARNING that is problematic, it is the attempt to coerce
it. When people have choice, they LOVE to learn and don't develop the
kind of resistance to it that you seem to be experiencing.

Sesame Street, for example, is fun and enjoyable for lots of kids
because of the learning that it entails. Kids LOVE to learn when they
aren't being forced, assigned, graded, tested, and so on.

Yeah, it IS great! Wondrous. Wish you could see it through my
husband's eyes - he didn't have any tv growing up - I mean, there
were not ANY tv's where he lived, he didn't see one until he was at
least 12 years old and then only little bitty black and whites. He
never saw a color tv until he was in his 20's. HE knows how to
appreciate the wonder of a big color tv.

-pam





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-a
lot of times parents seem to have a very hands-off attitude about tv
as if it was something done by the child, in isolation. Then they
blame the tv for the child being isolated.=-

I thought that deserved repeating.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cecegary

> Is your house big enough that you could get away from the TV? Can
> you put a TV in a place where you can get away from it?

Actually, I should have continued that I DO suggest they use one of
the other TVs upstairs if I'm working on something downstairs and am
bothered by the TV. I actually get headaches sometimes from the TV. I
know this, because once it's off, the headache goes away. They are
always welcome to watch one of the other two TVs upstairs, but one of
them can be occupied by an XBOX player, and the other one is not
connected to the satellite, so only videos and DVDs can be viewed on
it. So far neither child has ever had a problem with turning it off
when I ask (which isn't often), which makes me wonder why they didn't
turn it off and find something else to do on their own.

> If you're looking for the result "Children set their own limits,"
> unschooling probably isn't the way to go.
> If you're looking for the result "Children make thoughtful
choices,"
> it can be fantastic!

Thoughtful choices is what I mean. I was just following the verbiage
used in the original post.

> Their thoughtful choices might not look like the limits you
> imagined and hoped they might set to please you, though.

True. And it's not like they don't learn from TV, so it's not like
I'm against the TV-watching, it's just that the house seems so much
more peaceful when it's off. We do more together too, which I like,
and I know they do too. Is it wrong to encourage them to turn it off
if they're fine with that? How do you encourage making thoughtful
choices if you don't offer them other choices to be thoughtful about?

Chelsea

cecegary

No. I'm not against the TV-watching per se. No matter what they're
watching, when it's on for hours and hours sometimes (not every time)
it gets to me, and I just need a break from the noise. And sometimes I
have to be where the downstairs TV noise is, so there are less options
for me, but they have more than one location to go to for TV access.

Chelsea

> If they were watching a math show on tv, a series of math lectures,
> for example, would you be as bothered by the noise? Would you put up
> with it because they were learning math? Would you go find a quiet
> place for yourself and leave them to it?
>
> -pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-How do you encourage making thoughtful
choices if you don't offer them other choices to be thoughtful about?-=-

Good question.
What they're watching on TV might be the very best choice. It might
be something that's just on while they're playing something else.

-=-Thoughtful choices is what I mean. I was just following the verbiage
used in the original post. -=-

It might be interesting to think about those two statements together.
Making thoughtful choices of words and phrasing when posting is what
makes the difference between a so-so or confusing post and something
really useful or inspiring.

-=I actually get headaches sometimes from the TV. I
know this, because once it's off, the headache goes away.-=-

Is it possible the headache is from stress, frustration, and your
inability to relax about the TV?

If not, what about headphones, for one child who might be watching a
show?

-=-So far neither child has ever had a problem with turning it off
when I ask (which isn't often), which makes me wonder why they didn't
turn it off and find something else to do on their own. -=-

Because they're doing something nice for you?

If I'm answering posts on the list like this one, or working on my
webpages, or folding laundry or watching a movie, I'm probably going
to keep doing that until I get tired of it, or until someone asks me
to do something for them. If it's someone I care about, I'll be glad
to quit doing what I'm doing and get back to it later.

If the person kept asking me to do something else for no other reason
than to keep me from being online or watching my movie, it wouldn't
be too long before they weren't on my list of people I really cared
about enough to stop anything I'm doing to be with them.

Don't spend all your points with your kids on things like getting a
TV turned off. Save them for more important things.


Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 15, 2007, at 5:53 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> =I actually get headaches sometimes from the TV. I
> know this, because once it's off, the headache goes away.-=-
>
> Is it possible the headache is from stress, frustration, and your
> inability to relax about the TV?
>
> If not, what about headphones, for one child who might be watching a
> show?

I have an mp3 player with really comfy noise blocking earbuds - you
squish them up before putting them in your ears and then they expand
and really block out a lot of noise while staying in very well, too.
When my husband has been watching a whole lot of football, especially
if John Madden is a commentator (his voice rubs me the wrong way), I
listen to audible books or to music on my mp3 player.

It isn't that I have no sympathy for those who are sensitive to the
noise of a tv on for hours and hours - I get tense, too, and have had
tension headaches as a result, myself. I've found that if I sit down
and watch with them, so that it isn't background noise that I'm
trying, unsuccessfully, to block out, I can relax with it more.

So - there are a couple of strategies that don't involve interrupting
the kids.

Occasionally interrupting them doesn't seem awful to me, either. What
would be awful would be to have a parent constantly complaining that
the tv noise was bothering them.

-pam





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amy

Oh my goodness. I seriously just meant that I thought it was
irritating.

<<<How is that you only have PBS?>>>

PBS is the only thing I have that she wishes to watch. I also have
the regular channels and she does like some of the night time
shows. I would love to get satellite or calble, but currently don't
even have something I could give up to pay for it.

<<<If you're not shoving numbers and letters down her throat, and
she's
> not in school, then there's no problem, right?
> Does she know how to turn the TV off? If not, can she look
away,
> or walk away?>>>

Right, it's not a problem. I merely mentioned that I thought it was
irritating. Just an opinion. If it was the Simpsons or Bugs Bunny,
I probably wouldn't be irritated. Maybe I shouldn't have said
irritated. Slightly annoyed, put off, perhaps?
>

><<< Unschooling shouldn't be the absence of anything that is
discussed or
> valued in school. It's about choices and alternate means of
> acquisition of the same kinds of information kids learn in school,
> and then tons-and-much more!
> If an unschooling family avoids numbers and letters, how will a
> child learn?>>>

Right. We don't have an absence. She was well aware of numbers and
letters before tv, I was not hiding these from her.

><<<< If someone is singing and playing and dancing about numbers
and
> letters, how is that "shoving down throats"?>>>

It just seems obsessive and constant. Does everything have to be
about letters and numbers? I really don't have a problem with
numbers and letters, I use them everyday.

<<< Look at the little video on this page, which all my kids have
seen
> lots of times because it was on our best of Sesame Street video
(home
> made collection of people's favorite bits):
> http://sandradodd.com/alphabet
> It's beautiful and soothing and sweet.>>>

Thank you, I will look at it when I am at my folk's house (too slow
for video). My daughter and I have many sweet cuddly moments
watching tv together. This isn't a problem.

> <<<This is contradictory, though. If you don't believe it's a
negative,
> how are you being irritated? There are other things you would
> prefer, for reasons you should examine for the benefit of peace in
> your own soul, and your home, and for your daughter's potential for
joy.>>>

I would just prefer to watch less schooly stuff, but that's me. Not
a problem.

> -=-I liked our life before we got
> tv, but maybe she likes it more now.
> -=-
>
> It doesn't have to be that one person's happiness is made of
another
> person's unhappiness. Please try to see yourself as your
daughter's
> partner and not see the TV as something separating you, but as
> something you can share and appreciate together.

Yes, I am her partner. I am always with her. I watch copius amounts
of tv with her. I know when her "very favorites" are on and let her
know. I ask her things and point out things. We giggle together a
lot. But I still prefered (MY)life without a tv. I don't go on
about it. I see the value in it. I got it for her, even when I was
still really unsure about it. We do have lots and lots of fun with
it.

> <<<-=-"I think it would be easier for me to tolerate if it was just
> entertaining."-=-
>
> If children learn from playing (and thinking, hearing music,
looking
> at pictures, playing in the dirt, or the bathtub, or with dolls or
> blocks or pipecleaners or bugs or old junkmail...) then "just
> entertaining" is a worthy goal, but if you start to separate
things
> out by what *you* consider "just entertaining" and what you
consider
> schooly or potentially educational, you're still sorting.
> http://sandradodd.com/deschooling>>>

Right again. I tend to find most things in life entertaining or
fascinating. I don't think I'm sorting. I don't say to her, "let's
not watch that schooly stuff." Or even tell her that it
(occasionally) irritates me.

<<You seem still to be looking at the clock and the TV and the
school
> and your feelings instead of at your daughter herself.>>>

I don't think that is so. I try to do what ever my daughter needs or
wants, even when it's not something I wish to do. Sometimes I think
having all her little neighborhood friends over is irritating too.

Wow, you guys were all over that. I'll be sure to keep any
irritations I have off of here. Or try to find a way to phrase it so
that so many assumptions aren't made.

Thanks again,
Amy

Amy

>
> Are you saying tv is overly "educational" for your taste?

no.

> I'm having trouble understanding how a tv can get only PBS and
> movies? If you can get PBS, why don't you get other channels? But,
> PBS is awesome - there is enough programming just on PBS to keep a
> family happy for many many hours.

I get other channels. She has no interest in game shows or soaps.
PBS is lovely.

> > I am having a hard time with it (why I
> > said "I think it would be easier for me to tolerate if it was just
> > entertaining."), I was just mentioning that the problem I have is
> > different than I thought it would be.
>
> Assuming you mean that PBS seems overly educational to you,
another
> thing for you to ask yourself is whether that is not just your own
> baggage, having felt learning was being forced on you. Your child
> doesn't have that baggage, of course, and, to her, tv is a choice
> (unlike schooling was for you). PBS doesn't seem at all overly
> educational to me - it seems filled with wondrous information and
> ideas and the chance for me to learn a lot in a really pleasurable
> way. But, I've long ago gotten over being resistant to learning
(I'm
> 55 years old and have grown unschooled kids). Sounds, to me, like
> you're likely still in reactive mode - still hurt by what school
did
> to you. I don't feel that even the most overtly educational
programs
> on PBS are shoving anything down kids' throats - not as long as
there
> is a power button on the tv <G>.

Right, it's my own baggage. I'm so anti-school, that shows that seem
all about "getting you ready for school" are irritating for me.

> > Is it really great? I don't know. I liked our life before we got
> > tv, but maybe she likes it more now.
>
> Is she stopping you from doing the things you used to do? Is that
> because she wants to watch certain shows? Then, yeah, that's
because
> she likes watching those shows more than whatever else it is that
you
> want her to be doing. So, her life is better.>>>

And that's great! I want her life to be better. I will probably
send the tv with her if she ever wants to move out. I do not have to
love the tv.

> <<<Sometimes people don't do stuff, though, because they think the
kid
> is happy watching tv -- so parents don't provide as great an
> environment as they would have without tv. It isn't the tv's
fault,
> or the child's fault, but the parents who are not doing their best
to
> offer a rich and full and stimulating life to their child.
>
> So, there could be some guilt on the parents part that they are
not
> paying enough attention to their child, not offering an
interesting
> enough life.

I think I offer a lot. I watch tv with her. I offer tons of things
to do.

> Also, parents sometimes feel tv is coming between them and their
> child - the parent claims not to like tv, but clearly the child
does.
> The parent ought to be supporting that interest and getting
involved
> and cuddling up and watching together and talking about it later
and
> building on it -- you might be finding dress-ups that relate to a
> favorite show or character, you might find related books or games
or
> toys, you might make foods that were on a tv show>>>

Yes, we do thses sorts of things.

<<< -- supporting a
> child's interests doesn't mean support everything except tv, but a
> lot of times parents seem to have a very hands-off attitude about
tv
> as if it was something done by the child, in isolation. Then they
> blame the tv for the child being isolated.>>>

Not our situation, but I've seen that happen.

> If it seems that PBS is shoving education down kids' throats, what
> about science centers or museums? Do they feel the same way?

No. They seem different.
>
> This seems like a throwing the baby out with the bathwater kind of
> response.

But that wasn't my response.

> It isn't LEARNING that is problematic, it is the attempt to coerce
> it. When people have choice, they LOVE to learn and don't develop
the
> kind of resistance to it that you seem to be experiencing.
>
I don't have a problem with learning things from tv. I love
learning. I have seen that a person can learn a lot from tv and
that's wonderful. I am not resisting. It's hard to believe that no
one else finds anything on tv annoying.

Thank you,

Amy

Sandra Dodd

-=-Oh my goodness. I seriously just meant that I thought it was
irritating. -=-

I think people are assuming you brought it up because you wanted
suggestions to keep from being so irritated.



-=-Right, it's not a problem. I merely mentioned that I thought it was
irritating. Just an opinion.-=-

It's not "just an opinion" if it's affecting your comfort, your
homelife, and the relationship with your children.

It's not "just an opinion" if you act on it in ways that will make
unschooling work less effectively.

-=-If it was the Simpsons or Bugs Bunny,
I probably wouldn't be irritated. Maybe I shouldn't have said
irritated. Slightly annoyed, put off, perhaps?-=-

If the negativity has to do with content and not actually the sound,
then it's worth being mindful of what you're feeling and why.
Analyzing this situation will help you later when the topic is cars,
shoes, friends you don't know, etc.

http://sandradodd.com/tv (in case you haven't already read some of
that, there are LOTS of testimonials, sweet and funny, of moms who
used to be irritated (or annoyed or put off) and got over it in
expansive, blossoming ways)

http://sandradodd.com/mindfulness

There's an article by Danielle Conger on being present with your
children, and some other things on that page too about trying to be
more mindful.

-=PBS is the only thing I have that she wishes to watch. -=-

It's important to be clear when you tell us what your situation is.
You said you only had PBS and movies.

It's important when you're just thinking within yourself, too, to be
as clear as you can be. It's easy to limit our own thinking
artificially and unnecessarily.

-=-It just seems obsessive and constant. Does everything have to be
about letters and numbers? I really don't have a problem with
numbers and letters, I use them everyday.-=-

You already know letters and numbers. If your daughter likes those
things, and watches them, and it bothers you, that's worth thinking
about.

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

Parents have been in school WAY longer than any homeschooled child.
It's the parents who need the deschooling most!

-=-Wow, you guys were all over that. I'll be sure to keep any
irritations I have off of here. Or try to find a way to phrase it so
that so many assumptions aren't made.-=-

Clarity is always best. Even if the responses didn't apply to you,
though, there are hundreds of people reading here and some of them
probably picked something new and useful up.



Sandra










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't have a problem with learning things from tv. I love
learning. I have seen that a person can learn a lot from tv and
that's wonderful. I am not resisting. It's hard to believe that no
one else finds anything on tv annoying.-=-

MANY people find things on TV annoying.

In a discussion about unschooling, though, in which I assume that
every participant hopes to improve her relationship with her children
(or his... some dads are here), then the topic will turn toward what
can allay your annoyance.

This list isn't to discuss what's annoying about TV, but what's
wonderful about letting children live openly and joyfully in the world.

-=-And that's great! I want her life to be better. I will probably
send the tv with her if she ever wants to move out. I do not have to
love the tv.-=-

You don't have to hate the TV, either. You might want to change your
views now so that you don't spend the rest of her youth and young
adulthood holding your breath when the TV is not to your liking.

Being at peace today will make today better. Looking forward to ten
or fifteen years from now isn't a good way to be more present and
mindful today.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-It's hard to believe that no
one else finds anything on tv annoying.-=-

I don't find anything my kids like totally annoying. Rap and hiphop
are less annoying now because Marty understands and can discuss them
with me. He can play one that he knows I'll like better, because he
knows me well. Barbies used to totally annoy me when I was a kid,
but Holly loves them, and because of her I have seen different kinds
of value in them.


Here are some links to the writings of people who REALLY find TV
annoying.
http://sandradodd.com/tv/anti

If you want support for unschooling, this list will be great.
If you want support for your dislike of TV, there are other places
you might like.
http://sandradodd.com/t/anti

Sandra



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Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 16, 2007, at 7:14 AM, Amy wrote:

> It's hard to believe that no
> one else finds anything on tv annoying.

LOL - lots of things on tv can be annoying. Lots of things our kids
do can be annoying - parents get lots of opportunities to switch
perspective, to see things differently, by looking at them through
the eyes of our kids. When something is annoying to us, that's a
prime opportunity for that perspective switch.

Amy, we responded to what you said - didn't make up things or put
words in your mouth.
You really did say things beyond and much stronger than that there
were some things on tv that were occasionally annoying. You said, for
example:

" I have a really hard time with so much tv."

--- a "really hard time" sounds like you're more than just a bit
annoyed by something on tv. And "so much tv" sounds like it is the
quantity she wants to watch, not just the content."

" I find all that schooly stuff so irritating."

--- "all that schooly stuff meaning all the cool playing and singing
and dancing about letters and numbers that your daughter doesn't
think of as schooly, but as just cool playing and singing and dancing
about letters and numbers - letters and numbers are very cool,
they're not "schooly." Saying, "so irritating," is a long stronger
than just casually commenting that sometimes things on tv are a
little annoying.

"One reason I'm not sending her to school is so that she
doesn't have to have all these numbers and letters shoved down her
throat. But it doesn't seem to bother her. "

This implies that the singing and dancing and playing with letters
and numbers is equivalent to having them shoved down her throat. You
said it doesn't bother her as if what is happening to her is the same
as what happens in school.

"I don't know if it's really free choice if you can only choose PBS
or a movie, but that's
all I can afford right now."

Now you say, in fact, she has lots of other choices - all the other
channels that she mostly chooses not to watch. That's a LOT of choice.

"I no longer believe all the negative things you mentioned, but the
amount of time is irritating. "

Sounds like what some parents would say about their kid who loved
reading - "Reading is fine and dandy, but I wish she'd do something
else once in a while." As if, first of all, the kid never really did
anything else and, second of all, as if the kid's reading was
annoying to the parent.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amy

> If the negativity has to do with content and not actually the
sound,
> then it's worth being mindful of what you're feeling and why.
> Analyzing this situation will help you later when the topic is
cars,
> shoes, friends you don't know, etc.

That's a good point. Wow, it's so interesting to me. I was feeling
very sensitive and defensive and was wishing I hadn't posted because
I felt like it was blown out of proportion. And now I'm realizing
that the whole issue is sort of dissapearing for me. I thought I was
over it before, but negative feelings were sneaking in on me. I did
still have stuff to deal with.

> http://sandradodd.com/tv (in case you haven't already read some
of
> that, there are LOTS of testimonials, sweet and funny, of moms who
> used to be irritated (or annoyed or put off) and got over it in
> expansive, blossoming ways)
> http://sandradodd.com/mindfulness

Oh Sandra, I would have never gotten this far if I hadn't read these
over and over. Thank you.

>
> It's important when you're just thinking within yourself, too, to
be
> as clear as you can be. It's easy to limit our own thinking
> artificially and unnecessarily.

Yes, and thank you again, I didn't even realize I was doing this
until just now.
>
> Clarity is always best. Even if the responses didn't apply to
you,
> though, there are hundreds of people reading here and some of them
> probably picked something new and useful up.

I hope so, following these discussions has certainly helped me.
------
> MANY people find things on TV annoying.
>
> In a discussion about unschooling, though, in which I assume that
> every participant hopes to improve her relationship with her
children
> (or his... some dads are here), then the topic will turn toward
what
> can allay your annoyance.
>
> This list isn't to discuss what's annoying about TV, but what's
> wonderful about letting children live openly and joyfully in the
world.

This list has improved my relationship with my daughter and other
people as well. I feel sort of foolish for claiming I was just
stating an opinion on a list where I know that is not what it's
about.
--------
> I don't find anything my kids like totally annoying. Rap and
hiphop
> are less annoying now because Marty understands and can discuss
them
> with me. He can play one that he knows I'll like better, because
he
> knows me well. Barbies used to totally annoy me when I was a kid,
> but Holly loves them, and because of her I have seen different
kinds
> of value in them.

I think that's awesome. I've found that I like a lot of things I was
sure I never would! I adore my daughter and of course I will do what
it takes to enjoy what she enjoys.

> Here are some links to the writings of people who REALLY find TV
> annoying.
> http://sandradodd.com/tv/anti
>
> If you want support for unschooling, this list will be great.
> If you want support for your dislike of TV, there are other places
> you might like.
> http://sandradodd.com/t/anti

Thank you, I have read those. Thankfully I don't feel that way so
much anymore.

I do want support for unschooling. I don't care to harp on about
annoying things.

Amy

> LOL - lots of things on tv can be annoying. Lots of things our
kids
> do can be annoying - parents get lots of opportunities to switch
> perspective, to see things differently, by looking at them through
> the eyes of our kids. When something is annoying to us, that's a
> prime opportunity for that perspective switch.

That's true, I have had many perspectives switched lately!

> Amy, we responded to what you said - didn't make up things or put
> words in your mouth.
> You really did say things beyond and much stronger than that there
> were some things on tv that were occasionally annoying.
> --- a "really hard time" sounds like you're more than just a bit
> annoyed by something on tv. And "so much tv" sounds like it is the
> quantity she wants to watch, not just the content."

Yes, and I do appologize. I realized later that I was being
inconsistant and using stronger language than I meant. You know, I
think it was that I was having an internal conflict, and feeling very
much two ways about tv and I shouldn't have been writing and thinking
at the same time. Think, then write! So, you probably just watched
me go through a learning experience.


" I find all that schooly stuff so irritating."
>
> --- "all that schooly stuff meaning all the cool playing and
singing
> and dancing about letters and numbers that your daughter doesn't
> think of as schooly, but as just cool playing and singing and
dancing
> about letters and numbers - letters and numbers are very cool,
> they're not "schooly." Saying, "so irritating," is a long stronger
> than just casually commenting that sometimes things on tv are a
> little annoying.

Yeah, I guess it just seemed pushy to me. My biggest mistake was not
remember that this group is about unschooling and not my opinions on
tv. lol! I've been pretty careful so far not to get sidetracked
with random thoughts on here. I do get now, that it's not pushy. She
doesn't have to watch it. And it's obvious that she enjoys it. And
I enjoy her enjoying things.

> "One reason I'm not sending her to school is so that she
> doesn't have to have all these numbers and letters shoved down her
> throat. But it doesn't seem to bother her. "
>
> This implies that the singing and dancing and playing with letters
> and numbers is equivalent to having them shoved down her throat.
You
> said it doesn't bother her as if what is happening to her is the
same
> as what happens in school.

Right, they are totally different. I don't think I understood that
before.
>
> "I don't know if it's really free choice if you can only choose
PBS
> or a movie, but that's
> all I can afford right now."
>
> Now you say, in fact, she has lots of other choices - all the
other
> channels that she mostly chooses not to watch. That's a LOT of
choice.

Well, I don't think the 5 other channels we get are much choice for a
4 year old. Soaps and gameshows and court tv. But she could watch
them if she wanted.

> "I no longer believe all the negative things you mentioned, but the
> amount of time is irritating. "
>
> Sounds like what some parents would say about their kid who loved
> reading - "Reading is fine and dandy, but I wish she'd do
something
> else once in a while." As if, first of all, the kid never really
did
> anything else and, second of all, as if the kid's reading was
> annoying to the parent.

You're right. I think I was thinking this way.

Thank you Pam and Sandra and everyone else doing so much to help the
parents grow and really be there for their kids.

~Amy

Pamela Sorooshian

I just wanted to say that you don't need to apologize - it was nice
to actually watch you think this stuff through. And, lots and lots of
other people are reading and most likely getting a lot of ideas/
thinking out of it.

-pam

On Sep 16, 2007, at 7:37 PM, Amy wrote:

> Yes, and I do appologize. I realized later that I was being
> inconsistant and using stronger language than I meant. You know, I
> think it was that I was having an internal conflict, and feeling very
> much two ways about tv and I shouldn't have been writing and thinking
> at the same time. Think, then write! So, you probably just watched
> me go through a learning experience.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meghan Anderson-Coates

*************
It's hard to believe that no
one else finds anything on tv annoying.

************

LOL! I have to remove myself from the room when zack & cody, or drake & josh, etc. come on and I've already seen the episode half a dozen times (or maybe more). It's amazing how many times kids can watch the same show (I know it's a developmental thing and they're getting something from it). I get to the point where I just can't watch another of the same episode again. So I go into my bedroom or the garden to read or something.



Meghan

"Everything Is Possible" ~ Deepak Chopra

A New Era of Humanity Begins...
10MillionClicksForPeace.org

Peace is not something you wish for; It's something you make, Something you do, Something you are, And something you give away. ~ Robert Fulghum


---------------------------------
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cecegary

-=-So far neither child has ever had a problem with turning it off
when I ask (which isn't often), which makes me wonder why they didn't
turn it off and find something else to do on their own. -=-

> Because they're doing something nice for you?

True. I hadn't thought about that. But if they're just as content (or,
seemingly, even happier) doing something else, is it wrong to ask them?
They still have the choice to say no, yet they don't. Is learning to be
considerate of others' needs something that shouldn't be required of
them?

Chelsea

cecegary

> I have an mp3 player with really comfy noise blocking earbuds - you
> squish them up before putting them in your ears and then they expand
> and really block out a lot of noise while staying in very well, too.

That's a great idea! I need to find those earbuds.

Thanks,
Chelsea

cecegary

> It's hard to believe that no
> one else finds anything on tv annoying.

I do. But I would never say it here. :)

My kids also only watch PBS Kids and DVDs/videos (and yes, they have
access to however many channels our DISH service offers, but they
choose PBS Kids). I don't find the shows particularly irritating, but
the little spots between the shows are not always my favorite. All
the "getting your toddler ready for school" advice and "eating right"
advice (that my children watch intently). But I've found that those are
good opportunities to discuss what we believe vs. what's being said.
It's also a good time to dicuss different opinions, marketing
techniques, etc.

Chelsea

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 17, 2007, at 9:30 AM, cecegary wrote:

> -=-So far neither child has ever had a problem with turning it off
> when I ask (which isn't often), which makes me wonder why they didn't
> turn it off and find something else to do on their own. -=-

They just didn't think of something else to do, on their own. Then
you asked and they didn't care that much so they did something nice
for you and found themselves something else to do.

There is inertia in tv watching, as there is in lots of other things.
It takes energy to make a change/transition to another activity.
Also, they have to have another activity in mind, which sometimes
they aren't thinking of that while watching tv.

Parents shouldn't be trying to entice kids away from tv out of fear
that kids are watching too much tv. But they shouldn't be afraid,
either, of helping kids figure out what they really want to be doing
with their time, it isn't some kind of unschooling rule that parents
can't help kids move on if they're sort of stuck on something. That
happens - I've seen my kids keep playing a game, for example, past
the point of it being fun (at least for one of them). I've seen them
stick with it when they are frustrated and starting to get angry at
each other - they've needed some help from me to realize that it was
time to think of something else to do. And, some kids are more
passive, have less initiative, or some have trouble initiating
transitions - parents should be helping out with that.

Sandra has used this example - teachers pull down the shades in a
classroom so kids will pay more attention to schoolwork and not be
distracted by what is outside the windows. When a parent restricts/
limits tv, that is like the teacher pulling down the shades - it is
limiting kids' options, not expanding them. So - we don't want to do
that, as unschooling parents, we want to open up the world, not
restrict it. But, that doesn't mean putting tv-watching in some kind
of special status and, figuratively speaking, pulling down the shades
on the rest of the world so that tv seems the only option, either.
Unschooling parents will interact with tv-watching kids and be
offering other stuff to them - NOT out of fear or annoyance with the
tv, but in order to expand their world.

So - you might say, "When this show is over, do you want to make
cookies with me?" (Knowing that a kid really likes to make cookies,
maybe has mentioned wanting to make cookies.)" Or, you might say, "I
saw a hummingbird outside this morning, want to come look for one
with me?" OR you might strew some toys or building supplies or art
supplies around where the kids are watching tv - mine often forgot
about the tv when I pulled their big dollhouse out, with all its
pieces, or when I put really great colored pencils and exciting
coloring books out or pattern blocks or other things. After a while,
I'd notice they weren't really watching tv anymore and ask, "Hey, do
you mind if I put some music on?"

I think all these kinds of approaches are world-expanding, rather
than world-limiting, and they don't spring from fear about tv, but
out of a desire to provide a rich environment, with lots of fun
options, for the kids.

I think the above approach is a whole lot better than mom complaining
that the tv is annoying to her and asking the kids to stop watching.
I mean, I don't really think it is going to hurt them for that to
happen on rare occasions. It is how you respond to tv on a regular
basis that is really the issue.

-pam

>
> > Because they're doing something nice for you?
>
> True. I hadn't thought about that. But if they're just as content (or,
> seemingly, even happier) doing something else, is it wrong to ask
> them?
> They still have the choice to say no, yet they don't. Is learning
> to be
> considerate of others' needs something that shouldn't be required of
> them?



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