My husband's concerns
beanmommy2
Now that my oldest child is six, my husband is starting to have some
concerns and thinking she'd be better off in school.
He says he "wants it to work" and "he likes the idea" but his two
concerns are:
1) With two younger children, someone, or all three of them, will get
neglected
2) He really wants some sort of measurable goal, or plan. (which will
reassure him about #1)
We met with some unschooler friends to talk about their unschooling
life, and he later said to me that just isn't enough structure for him.
He said something like, "Just living your life and learning things as
they come up, that's great, and I want the kids to do that, but it just
isn't enough. There also needs to be some plan in your mind of where
you want to get, and some measurable goals."
He also said something that I thought was interesting: "Anytime I've
tried to accomplish something, or see someone else try to accomplish
something, having no plan or goal just does NOT work well. It leads to
sloppiness, and to things you hoped would happen never getting done, or
going in circles with where you want to head, that kind of thing."
The reason I thought that was interesting was that, in general, I have
found that to be true for me as well. Usually when I approach
something, whether it's the laundry or a career change, I have some
sort of goal or plan - or even steps to follow - in mind.
So ... I'm wondering how much "intentionality" or "planning" is, or
should be, or could be, involved in unschooling. Surely it's not years
of just wandering aimlessly with no structure, goals, hopes, or plans
of any kind.
Anyway, I'm wondering what I could present to him to satisfy this
concern of his. I really don't want my oldest to go to school, and I
think my husband doesn't either, if he could feel confident that
unschooling would go well.
What kinds of goals and plans might be appropriate for a six year old?
Did anyone here (or their spouses) have similar concerns? What kind of
plans or goals, if any, would be reasonable while still maintaining an
unschooling approach?
Thanks
Jenny
concerns and thinking she'd be better off in school.
He says he "wants it to work" and "he likes the idea" but his two
concerns are:
1) With two younger children, someone, or all three of them, will get
neglected
2) He really wants some sort of measurable goal, or plan. (which will
reassure him about #1)
We met with some unschooler friends to talk about their unschooling
life, and he later said to me that just isn't enough structure for him.
He said something like, "Just living your life and learning things as
they come up, that's great, and I want the kids to do that, but it just
isn't enough. There also needs to be some plan in your mind of where
you want to get, and some measurable goals."
He also said something that I thought was interesting: "Anytime I've
tried to accomplish something, or see someone else try to accomplish
something, having no plan or goal just does NOT work well. It leads to
sloppiness, and to things you hoped would happen never getting done, or
going in circles with where you want to head, that kind of thing."
The reason I thought that was interesting was that, in general, I have
found that to be true for me as well. Usually when I approach
something, whether it's the laundry or a career change, I have some
sort of goal or plan - or even steps to follow - in mind.
So ... I'm wondering how much "intentionality" or "planning" is, or
should be, or could be, involved in unschooling. Surely it's not years
of just wandering aimlessly with no structure, goals, hopes, or plans
of any kind.
Anyway, I'm wondering what I could present to him to satisfy this
concern of his. I really don't want my oldest to go to school, and I
think my husband doesn't either, if he could feel confident that
unschooling would go well.
What kinds of goals and plans might be appropriate for a six year old?
Did anyone here (or their spouses) have similar concerns? What kind of
plans or goals, if any, would be reasonable while still maintaining an
unschooling approach?
Thanks
Jenny
Paula Sjogerman
On Aug 27, 2007, at 7:28 AM, beanmommy2 wrote:
worksheets, etc., Planning and Goals can also be a part of your
unschooling life. It's just that the goals arise from the child, not
the parent. My kids have had - and accomplished - many goals over the
years, which involved lots of planning, but because they were
internally motivated, they just didn't have that same "work" quality
we're used to associating with school goals.
I think it's a natural part of human nature to plan, to reach for
things. I also think that the amount one needs that is a continuum
that changes with time as well. Six year olds usually don't have
goals that span much time. Sixteen year olds have more. I would
suggest that you and your husband research more stories about older
unschooled kids so that you can see how it all works over the long haul.
Paula
> So ... I'm wondering how much "intentionality" or "planning" is, orJust like unschooling can involve the use of books, textbooks,
> should be, or could be, involved in unschooling. Surely it's not years
> of just wandering aimlessly with no structure, goals, hopes, or plans
> of any kind.
worksheets, etc., Planning and Goals can also be a part of your
unschooling life. It's just that the goals arise from the child, not
the parent. My kids have had - and accomplished - many goals over the
years, which involved lots of planning, but because they were
internally motivated, they just didn't have that same "work" quality
we're used to associating with school goals.
I think it's a natural part of human nature to plan, to reach for
things. I also think that the amount one needs that is a continuum
that changes with time as well. Six year olds usually don't have
goals that span much time. Sixteen year olds have more. I would
suggest that you and your husband research more stories about older
unschooled kids so that you can see how it all works over the long haul.
Paula
Sandra Dodd
-=-So ... I'm wondering how much "intentionality" or "planning" is, or
should be, or could be, involved in unschooling. Surely it's not years
of just wandering aimlessly with no structure, goals, hopes, or plans
of any kind.-=-
Have you been wandering aimlessly thusfar with your children? Have
they learned nothing so far? Do you ever have plans or a schedule or
expectations?
But if you expect for your children to meet all of *your* structure,
goals, hopes and plans instead of you meeting some of theirs,
unschooling might not be a good path for you.
-=-Anyway, I'm wondering what I could present to him to satisfy this
concern of his. I really don't want my oldest to go to school, and I
think my husband doesn't either, if he could feel confident that
unschooling would go well.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum
Read there and see if you can find something to use, maybe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
should be, or could be, involved in unschooling. Surely it's not years
of just wandering aimlessly with no structure, goals, hopes, or plans
of any kind.-=-
Have you been wandering aimlessly thusfar with your children? Have
they learned nothing so far? Do you ever have plans or a schedule or
expectations?
But if you expect for your children to meet all of *your* structure,
goals, hopes and plans instead of you meeting some of theirs,
unschooling might not be a good path for you.
-=-Anyway, I'm wondering what I could present to him to satisfy this
concern of his. I really don't want my oldest to go to school, and I
think my husband doesn't either, if he could feel confident that
unschooling would go well.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum
Read there and see if you can find something to use, maybe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
:: anne | arun ::
> "Anytime I've tried to accomplish something, or see someone else---------
> try to accomplish
> something, having no plan or goal just does NOT work well. It leads to
> sloppiness, and to things you hoped would happen never getting
> done, or
> going in circles with where you want to head, that kind of thing."
>
Hi Jenny, in response to your dh, I agree with Paula that unschooling
can and does involve goals but that they are generated and "owned" by
the child.
To help draw your dh out more on this matter it would be interesting
to ask him how he or others go with implementing other peoples goals
when he/ they have no say or stake in them?
He might appreciate a business environment comparison� it would for
example be very problematic for a company if its staff did not share
values or an appreciation of the company goals and vision. They would
often be going through the motions, doing the most limited work to
meet the minimum requirement. It would likely lead to no passion, no
drive, no initiative. No fun!
This has been recognized by the likes of Stephen Covey who designs
entire programs to try to acknowledge and integrate staff goals &
vision into broader company goals & vision. Its also why some
consultants are using the concepts from people like Alfie Kohn
(Unconditional Parenting etc) in the business realm.
I would not generally draw family / business comparisons as they are
often different worlds... but perhaps in this instance it might help
to legitimize & create understanding for some of these concepts in
your dh's eyes???
Basically I feel that unschooling presents an opportunity for a child
to learn how to explore and (where appropriate) develop their own
goals, rather than learning to examine what is put in front of them
and accept goals set by other people. Meanwhile as a parent i think
the best thing i can do on the goal front is to model and follow my
own interests, concerns and passions in planning, creating and
reaching my own goals.
Finally i thought id plug this article which might be of some
relevance to you and your journey with your dh... It is called:
An Unauthorised Guide for Unschooling Mums dealing with (still
developing) Unschooling Dads
and you can read at this link: http://theparentingpit.com/unschooling/
unauthorised-dad-handbook/
all the best
arun
_____________________________________________
| anne + arun |
http://www.theparentingpit.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Basically I feel that unschooling presents an opportunity for a child
to learn how to explore and (where appropriate) develop their own
goals, rather than learning to examine what is put in front of them
and accept goals set by other people. Meanwhile as a parent i think
the best thing i can do on the goal front is to model and follow my
own interests, concerns and passions in planning, creating and
reaching my own goals.
-=-
I agree, but a six year old isn't likely to have goals other than
getting to go to the swimming pool or having a special shelf for a
collecton. Parents should make a child's life rich and busy and
happy. Learning wlll flow into that and through that.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sandra
to learn how to explore and (where appropriate) develop their own
goals, rather than learning to examine what is put in front of them
and accept goals set by other people. Meanwhile as a parent i think
the best thing i can do on the goal front is to model and follow my
own interests, concerns and passions in planning, creating and
reaching my own goals.
-=-
I agree, but a six year old isn't likely to have goals other than
getting to go to the swimming pool or having a special shelf for a
collecton. Parents should make a child's life rich and busy and
happy. Learning wlll flow into that and through that.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sandra
harmony
> I agree, but a six year old isn't likely to have goals other thanI totally agree with that. There is a huge difference between unschooling and doing nothing.
> getting to go to the swimming pool or having a special shelf for a
> collecton. Parents should make a child's life rich and busy and
> happy. Learning wlll flow into that and through that.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I totally agree with that. There is a huge difference between
unschooling and doing nothing.-=-
Right.
And there's another huge difference between just being with your
child so much that you already KNOW what she enjoys, and asking a
six year old (or even a sixteen year old) to declare her interests
and her goals.
Live a rich life and pay attention. That's not so hard. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling and doing nothing.-=-
Right.
And there's another huge difference between just being with your
child so much that you already KNOW what she enjoys, and asking a
six year old (or even a sixteen year old) to declare her interests
and her goals.
Live a rich life and pay attention. That's not so hard. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
On 8/27/07, harmony <harmony@...> wrote:
are stuck in school-think, assume that what *looks like* nothing in their
minds is really important (sacred even), to the kid who's doing the
*nothing*.
Unschooling (respectful living) includes putting away my judgment and
opening myself to the wonder of my child.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>What stands in the way of unschooling A LOT of the time, is grown-ups who
> > I agree, but a six year old isn't likely to have goals other than
> > getting to go to the swimming pool or having a special shelf for a
> > collecton. Parents should make a child's life rich and busy and
> > happy. Learning wlll flow into that and through that.
>
> I totally agree with that. There is a huge difference between unschooling
> and doing nothing.
>
>
are stuck in school-think, assume that what *looks like* nothing in their
minds is really important (sacred even), to the kid who's doing the
*nothing*.
Unschooling (respectful living) includes putting away my judgment and
opening myself to the wonder of my child.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Tellew
Maybe for your husband, the plan could be that you document for him a
few things you see your kids learning each day. (Sandra has
mentioned that this helped her husband when she had little ones.) If
he needs more than that, you could also outline for him a way that
you plan to strew or offer (but not push or force) something that
connects to that bit of learning so as to broaden your kids' world a
bit more.
You could also remind him, that if he's worried about any of the
three being neglected at home, that at school there would be at least
15 and possibly more like 30. And even though they're the same
chronological age, many teachers will tell you that their kids span
at least six "grade levels" in any single grade class, so what's
being done in the classroom will not necessarily be tailored to her
level and most certainly not to her interests.
I wonder if your husband really means what I'm hearing: that he
wants to plan where your child will wind up in some set amount of
time? I can understand someone new to unschooling being concerned
that their kids grow up to be happy, self supporting, contributing
members of society. But if that's the worry, I think he needs
reassurance by learning about grown unschoolers, not a plan for what
your kid will do when. There's a quote, I think from John Holt,
that's often cited in this sort of discussion, that if you wait until
a kid is 15 or 16, all the 13 years of K-12 learning can be done in
18 months. Maybe that will help him relax a bit.
I'm thinking about this bit you said, Jen:
<<The reason I thought that was interesting was that, in general, I have
found that to be true for me as well. Usually when I approach
something, whether it's the laundry or a career change, I have some
sort of goal or plan - or even steps to follow - in mind.>>>
I think that's true for most of us, when we know what we want to
do. I see my children do it all the time. But it's often after a
period that looks very unplanned, unfocused and like they don't know
what they want to do. And that's true for myself as well. I have
periods where I flounder, but then I figure out what I want to do and
do it. I actually think those floundering periods are valuable. I
think of it as "brain stewing:" sometimes ideas need time to simmer
awhile before they really come together.
Pam Tellew
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
few things you see your kids learning each day. (Sandra has
mentioned that this helped her husband when she had little ones.) If
he needs more than that, you could also outline for him a way that
you plan to strew or offer (but not push or force) something that
connects to that bit of learning so as to broaden your kids' world a
bit more.
You could also remind him, that if he's worried about any of the
three being neglected at home, that at school there would be at least
15 and possibly more like 30. And even though they're the same
chronological age, many teachers will tell you that their kids span
at least six "grade levels" in any single grade class, so what's
being done in the classroom will not necessarily be tailored to her
level and most certainly not to her interests.
I wonder if your husband really means what I'm hearing: that he
wants to plan where your child will wind up in some set amount of
time? I can understand someone new to unschooling being concerned
that their kids grow up to be happy, self supporting, contributing
members of society. But if that's the worry, I think he needs
reassurance by learning about grown unschoolers, not a plan for what
your kid will do when. There's a quote, I think from John Holt,
that's often cited in this sort of discussion, that if you wait until
a kid is 15 or 16, all the 13 years of K-12 learning can be done in
18 months. Maybe that will help him relax a bit.
I'm thinking about this bit you said, Jen:
<<The reason I thought that was interesting was that, in general, I have
found that to be true for me as well. Usually when I approach
something, whether it's the laundry or a career change, I have some
sort of goal or plan - or even steps to follow - in mind.>>>
I think that's true for most of us, when we know what we want to
do. I see my children do it all the time. But it's often after a
period that looks very unplanned, unfocused and like they don't know
what they want to do. And that's true for myself as well. I have
periods where I flounder, but then I figure out what I want to do and
do it. I actually think those floundering periods are valuable. I
think of it as "brain stewing:" sometimes ideas need time to simmer
awhile before they really come together.
Pam Tellew
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
greenqueen72
I'm thinking about this bit you said, Jen:
<<The reason I thought that was interesting was that, in general, I have
found that to be true for me as well. Usually when I approach
something, whether it's the laundry or a career change, I have some
sort of goal or plan - or even steps to follow - in mind.>>>
I think that's true for most of us, when we know what we want to
do. I see my children do it all the time. But it's often after a
period that looks very unplanned, unfocused and like they don't know
what they want to do. And that's true for myself as well. I have
periods where I flounder, but then I figure out what I want to do and
do it. I actually think those floundering periods are valuable. I
think of it as "brain stewing:" sometimes ideas need time to simmer
awhile before they really come together.
Pam Tellew
This is really interesting to me because this exactly how I have been
feeling lately. For some reason those times of floundering are just
maddening for me. I have days when all flows and all is well and then
other days I am "cloudy" and completely unfocused. When I notice my
children are also something inside of me goes haywire. Is this a result
of my own institutionalized rearing? When I feel this way I in turn have
an overwhelming sense of guilt that I am not doing enough for my kids.
How do you know when what you are doing is good for them or when we have
just gotten lazy? DH feels there needs to be more structure also so I
understand how the author of this post feels. With 4 children (11,9,6,5)
some days are just completely chaotic. I've read things about not
requiring chores or not insisting on bedtimes and it all sounds great
but I need help with the housework and the kids have to go to bed so I
can too. I don't know why I feel so guilty about our choices. Am I
selfish to ask that we live consciously of one another. And children
have to learn to understand that adults are/ should be wiser and can be
respected and trusted. I do not want to rule with an iron hand but order
is important for the peace of everyone involved. We have always
unschooled but as of late I am thinking perhaps it would be better to
add a bit of what I think is best. Children do have amazing insight but
they do not know all. Should they be completely trusted with the
responsibility of their own educations? And what do we do if we are
pressured by law to prove they are learning what is required? I feel I
should have something to show. Would that really be detrimental to my
kids if I asked that they do a little work on most days? As long as they
can also pursue their own interests I don't think that is truly harmful.
Perhaps I am more eclectic in my thinking. I don't want to label myself
though. Constructive criticism, please! And to the original author of
this post~ thanks for the floor!
~Rachel~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<The reason I thought that was interesting was that, in general, I have
found that to be true for me as well. Usually when I approach
something, whether it's the laundry or a career change, I have some
sort of goal or plan - or even steps to follow - in mind.>>>
I think that's true for most of us, when we know what we want to
do. I see my children do it all the time. But it's often after a
period that looks very unplanned, unfocused and like they don't know
what they want to do. And that's true for myself as well. I have
periods where I flounder, but then I figure out what I want to do and
do it. I actually think those floundering periods are valuable. I
think of it as "brain stewing:" sometimes ideas need time to simmer
awhile before they really come together.
Pam Tellew
This is really interesting to me because this exactly how I have been
feeling lately. For some reason those times of floundering are just
maddening for me. I have days when all flows and all is well and then
other days I am "cloudy" and completely unfocused. When I notice my
children are also something inside of me goes haywire. Is this a result
of my own institutionalized rearing? When I feel this way I in turn have
an overwhelming sense of guilt that I am not doing enough for my kids.
How do you know when what you are doing is good for them or when we have
just gotten lazy? DH feels there needs to be more structure also so I
understand how the author of this post feels. With 4 children (11,9,6,5)
some days are just completely chaotic. I've read things about not
requiring chores or not insisting on bedtimes and it all sounds great
but I need help with the housework and the kids have to go to bed so I
can too. I don't know why I feel so guilty about our choices. Am I
selfish to ask that we live consciously of one another. And children
have to learn to understand that adults are/ should be wiser and can be
respected and trusted. I do not want to rule with an iron hand but order
is important for the peace of everyone involved. We have always
unschooled but as of late I am thinking perhaps it would be better to
add a bit of what I think is best. Children do have amazing insight but
they do not know all. Should they be completely trusted with the
responsibility of their own educations? And what do we do if we are
pressured by law to prove they are learning what is required? I feel I
should have something to show. Would that really be detrimental to my
kids if I asked that they do a little work on most days? As long as they
can also pursue their own interests I don't think that is truly harmful.
Perhaps I am more eclectic in my thinking. I don't want to label myself
though. Constructive criticism, please! And to the original author of
this post~ thanks for the floor!
~Rachel~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-For some reason those times of floundering are just
maddening for me. I have days when all flows and all is well and then
other days I am "cloudy" and completely unfocused. When I notice my
children are also something inside of me goes haywire. Is this a result
of my own institutionalized rearing?-=-
Maybe.
Could you maybe just try breathing slowly and deeply, just a couple
of breaths, slowly in and slowly out and see if that doesn't make you
feel a little more focused and clear right then and there?
If you're not sure what you want or where you want to be, it become
almost impossible to make strong choices. If you're just kind
vaguely doing what it seems you think others are doing, or what you
kind of remember your parents doing. you'll be cloudy and unfocused,
I'm thinking.
-=- When I feel this way I in turn have
an overwhelming sense of guilt that I am not doing enough for my
kids.-=-
If it doesn't seem like enough to you, do more.
If *you* have doubt, do more.
Get them out of the house, even to a park or for a drive or to a
store when you're not in a hurry. Find free live music and take
sandwiches and go there, maybe.
-=-How do you know when what you are doing is good for them or when
we have
just gotten lazy? DH feels there needs to be more structure also so I
understand how the author of this post feels.-=-
A person can live an extremely and energetic life without structure.
A person can adopt structure in a lazy way--following the directions
rather than being creative and innovative.
-=-With 4 children (11,9,6,5)
some days are just completely chaotic. I've read things about not
requiring chores or not insisting on bedtimes and it all sounds great
but I need help with the housework and the kids have to go to bed so I
can too. I don't know why I feel so guilty about our choices. -=-
Five and six are very young. The other two aren't so young.
Please be cautious of using the phrase "have to" (as in "and the kids
have to go to bed so I
can too." ) http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Even if your actions don't change, if your thoughts and words
change, your thinking changes.
-=-Am I
selfish to ask that we live consciously of one another.-=-
This implies that someone here (or all of us here?) are recommending
that children not live consciously of one another, but I think what
the message is is that when parents are more considerate of their
children's preferences and desires and curiosities, the children are
more considerate and respectful of the parents, too.
-=- And children have to learn to understand that adults are/ should
be wiser and can be
respected and trusted.-=-
Well if ruling iron handedly would do that, wouldn't all adults be
wise and respectable and trustworthy?
-=-...And children have to learn to understand that adults are...-=-
Children cannot help to learn about what they think adults are like.
All children form opinions of adults, and eventually, as they get
older, different opinions of different individual adults. I don't
think you want your children to "have to learn" something that's false.
-=-I do not want to rule with an iron hand but order
is important for the peace of everyone involved. We have always
unschooled but as of late I am thinking perhaps it would be better to
add a bit of what I think is best.-=-
If you don't think unschooling is best, then don't!
If you've never really tried loosening up on bedtime and not
requiring chores, though, I think your statement that you have
"always unschooled" is suspect or limited.
Of course you should do what you think is best. Not "add a bit," but
TOTALLY go with what you think is best. Why wouldn't you?
If you think structure and rules are best, you will be hugely
supported in that by millions of people.
If you think school is best, there's probably one free and in walking
distance. Most parents thing that is best.
-=- Children do have amazing insight but
they do not know all. Should they be completely trusted with the
responsibility of their own educations?-=-
You said you've always unschooled, but these are the questions of
someone who just heard of it recently and doesn't really understand it.
No one has said kids know everything.
No one has said give them responsibility for their own "education."
We're talking about LEARNING, and the responsibility for making sure
unschooled kids are in an environment conducive to happy, peaceful
natural learning is totally the responsibility of the unschooling
parents.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
-=-And what do we do if we are
pressured by law to prove they are learning what is required? I feel I
should have something to show.-=-
Contact people in your state and see how experienced unschoolers have
handled local laws.
-=-Would that really be detrimental to my
kids if I asked that they do a little work on most days?-=-
Yes, it would undermine and sabotage natural learning.
-=-As long as they
can also pursue their own interests I don't think that is truly
harmful.-=-
It's not harmful like rat poison is harmful, but it won't lead to
full-on, confident unschooling.
-=-Perhaps I am more eclectic in my thinking. I don't want to label
myself
though.-=-
You've already labelled yourself an unschooler, though!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
maddening for me. I have days when all flows and all is well and then
other days I am "cloudy" and completely unfocused. When I notice my
children are also something inside of me goes haywire. Is this a result
of my own institutionalized rearing?-=-
Maybe.
Could you maybe just try breathing slowly and deeply, just a couple
of breaths, slowly in and slowly out and see if that doesn't make you
feel a little more focused and clear right then and there?
If you're not sure what you want or where you want to be, it become
almost impossible to make strong choices. If you're just kind
vaguely doing what it seems you think others are doing, or what you
kind of remember your parents doing. you'll be cloudy and unfocused,
I'm thinking.
-=- When I feel this way I in turn have
an overwhelming sense of guilt that I am not doing enough for my
kids.-=-
If it doesn't seem like enough to you, do more.
If *you* have doubt, do more.
Get them out of the house, even to a park or for a drive or to a
store when you're not in a hurry. Find free live music and take
sandwiches and go there, maybe.
-=-How do you know when what you are doing is good for them or when
we have
just gotten lazy? DH feels there needs to be more structure also so I
understand how the author of this post feels.-=-
A person can live an extremely and energetic life without structure.
A person can adopt structure in a lazy way--following the directions
rather than being creative and innovative.
-=-With 4 children (11,9,6,5)
some days are just completely chaotic. I've read things about not
requiring chores or not insisting on bedtimes and it all sounds great
but I need help with the housework and the kids have to go to bed so I
can too. I don't know why I feel so guilty about our choices. -=-
Five and six are very young. The other two aren't so young.
Please be cautious of using the phrase "have to" (as in "and the kids
have to go to bed so I
can too." ) http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Even if your actions don't change, if your thoughts and words
change, your thinking changes.
-=-Am I
selfish to ask that we live consciously of one another.-=-
This implies that someone here (or all of us here?) are recommending
that children not live consciously of one another, but I think what
the message is is that when parents are more considerate of their
children's preferences and desires and curiosities, the children are
more considerate and respectful of the parents, too.
-=- And children have to learn to understand that adults are/ should
be wiser and can be
respected and trusted.-=-
Well if ruling iron handedly would do that, wouldn't all adults be
wise and respectable and trustworthy?
-=-...And children have to learn to understand that adults are...-=-
Children cannot help to learn about what they think adults are like.
All children form opinions of adults, and eventually, as they get
older, different opinions of different individual adults. I don't
think you want your children to "have to learn" something that's false.
-=-I do not want to rule with an iron hand but order
is important for the peace of everyone involved. We have always
unschooled but as of late I am thinking perhaps it would be better to
add a bit of what I think is best.-=-
If you don't think unschooling is best, then don't!
If you've never really tried loosening up on bedtime and not
requiring chores, though, I think your statement that you have
"always unschooled" is suspect or limited.
Of course you should do what you think is best. Not "add a bit," but
TOTALLY go with what you think is best. Why wouldn't you?
If you think structure and rules are best, you will be hugely
supported in that by millions of people.
If you think school is best, there's probably one free and in walking
distance. Most parents thing that is best.
-=- Children do have amazing insight but
they do not know all. Should they be completely trusted with the
responsibility of their own educations?-=-
You said you've always unschooled, but these are the questions of
someone who just heard of it recently and doesn't really understand it.
No one has said kids know everything.
No one has said give them responsibility for their own "education."
We're talking about LEARNING, and the responsibility for making sure
unschooled kids are in an environment conducive to happy, peaceful
natural learning is totally the responsibility of the unschooling
parents.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
-=-And what do we do if we are
pressured by law to prove they are learning what is required? I feel I
should have something to show.-=-
Contact people in your state and see how experienced unschoolers have
handled local laws.
-=-Would that really be detrimental to my
kids if I asked that they do a little work on most days?-=-
Yes, it would undermine and sabotage natural learning.
-=-As long as they
can also pursue their own interests I don't think that is truly
harmful.-=-
It's not harmful like rat poison is harmful, but it won't lead to
full-on, confident unschooling.
-=-Perhaps I am more eclectic in my thinking. I don't want to label
myself
though.-=-
You've already labelled yourself an unschooler, though!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Aug 27, 2007, at 12:43 PM, greenqueen72 wrote:
still beat your wife?" How do you answer it - yes or no?
If we say, "Yes, trust them completely with the responsibility of
their own education," then does that mean parents can neglect them?
Do parents just stand back and wait for the child to "take
responsibility?" That is most definitely not unschooling.
If we say, "No, don't trust them," that is wrong, too. A basic
principle of unschooling is that children (young humans) are born
ready to learn and if that basic urge to learn isn't squelched, as it
so often is by teachers and parents, then they can be trusted to
learn what they want/need to learn.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Should they be completely trusted with the responsibility of theirI am bothered by the question itself. It is like asking, "Do you
> own educations?
still beat your wife?" How do you answer it - yes or no?
If we say, "Yes, trust them completely with the responsibility of
their own education," then does that mean parents can neglect them?
Do parents just stand back and wait for the child to "take
responsibility?" That is most definitely not unschooling.
If we say, "No, don't trust them," that is wrong, too. A basic
principle of unschooling is that children (young humans) are born
ready to learn and if that basic urge to learn isn't squelched, as it
so often is by teachers and parents, then they can be trusted to
learn what they want/need to learn.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jessi koons
--- Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
"Have you stopped beating your wife?"
--Jessi
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
> I am bothered by the question itself. It is likeSlightly off-topic, but do you mean it's like asking,
> asking, "Do you
> still beat your wife?" How do you answer it - yes or
> no?
"Have you stopped beating your wife?"
--Jessi
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
Sandra Dodd
This is being addressed off the list.
"Have you stopped beating your wife?"
======================================
Let's stick to helpful stuff about unschooling.
Sandra the listowner
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am bothered by the question itself. It is likeSlightly off-topic, but do you mean it's like asking,
> asking, "Do you
> still beat your wife?" How do you answer it - yes or
> no?
"Have you stopped beating your wife?"
======================================
Let's stick to helpful stuff about unschooling.
Sandra the listowner
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cathy
Hi Sandra
I have been catching up on email and have been enjoying a feast of your
thinking on various topics. I have just read this for example:
the responsibility for making sure
unschooled kids are in an environment conducive to happy, peaceful natural
learning is totally the responsibility of the unschooling parents.<<<
I just wanted to say 'Thank you' for all your writing - again! I have been
hanging around for some time now (about 8 years), reading, thinking,
disagreeing, rethinking, applying, experimenting, observing, concluding,
solidifying principles and convictions. My kids in particular and my family
in general is the better for it. I have never been so challenged to grow as
I have been in the years since I discovered John Holt, and your emails are
like fertilizer on that growth. I can't tell you how often I sit here
smiling at something you expressed - it is so crystal clear. What a gift you
have with words.
Anyway, my heart was full to overflowing, and I wanted to let you share in
that joy.
Regards
Cathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have been catching up on email and have been enjoying a feast of your
thinking on various topics. I have just read this for example:
>>> No one has said kids know everything. No one has said give themresponsibility for their own "education." We're talking about LEARNING, and
the responsibility for making sure
unschooled kids are in an environment conducive to happy, peaceful natural
learning is totally the responsibility of the unschooling parents.<<<
I just wanted to say 'Thank you' for all your writing - again! I have been
hanging around for some time now (about 8 years), reading, thinking,
disagreeing, rethinking, applying, experimenting, observing, concluding,
solidifying principles and convictions. My kids in particular and my family
in general is the better for it. I have never been so challenged to grow as
I have been in the years since I discovered John Holt, and your emails are
like fertilizer on that growth. I can't tell you how often I sit here
smiling at something you expressed - it is so crystal clear. What a gift you
have with words.
Anyway, my heart was full to overflowing, and I wanted to let you share in
that joy.
Regards
Cathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I can't tell you how often I sit here
smiling at something you expressed - it is so crystal clear. What a
gift you
have with words.-=-
Thanks!
My computer is separated from my printer or I would've hit "print"
and put it in the box I keep of things to read when I need a boost.
I smiled when you likened me to fertilizer, but that's really okay.
I have three compost piles, and I wrote about unschooling as
composting too, somewhere...
http://sandradodd.com/substance
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
smiling at something you expressed - it is so crystal clear. What a
gift you
have with words.-=-
Thanks!
My computer is separated from my printer or I would've hit "print"
and put it in the box I keep of things to read when I need a boost.
I smiled when you likened me to fertilizer, but that's really okay.
I have three compost piles, and I wrote about unschooling as
composting too, somewhere...
http://sandradodd.com/substance
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]