Sandra Dodd

From time to time someone wants me to treat people on this list the
way I treat my children.
What I want to do with this list is to help other adults discover and
refine ways to treat their children more the way I treat my children,
if they want to.

I have a sign on my door, just put there last month, a paper taped
there at eye level that says

++++++++++++++++++++++
NO SOLICITORS

No tree trimming,
no petitions
no missionaries
no encyclopedia sales
no yard cleaning.
++++++++++++++++++++++

Unlike some other people I know, I have listened to missionaries at
length, invited them in, read their stuff, told them I admire their
dedication, given them cold drinks or water. I've let Jehovah's
Witnesses talk to me at length, and LDS guys. Lately I decided I
need to spend my time in other ways. I'm getting old.

Kirby's working nights. Holly sleeps late. Whenever anyone touches
our door the dog barks a high, painful bark. I don't want people to
trim our trees or clean our yard and someone was coming to the door
once a week or so. I don't want to sign petitions for anyone to run
for office or for people to pressure the government to do something
about something I never heard of.

Does that mean I'm telling my children not to talk to me about
religion or not to help me in the yard?

I will let Holly sleep as late as she wants to and I'll make her
anything she wants for breakfast, when she wants me to make her
breakfast, which isn't all the time, just sometimes. This morning I
was glad to make fried eggs and toast for her. She was sweet and
grateful.

Does that mean I should let just anyone sleep at my house as late as
they want and then request a special breakfast?

And on this discussion list, I'm not trying to mother people. I'm
trying to discuss ideas and factors and practices that make parenting
antagonistic, when those come up, so that ALL the people on the list,
not just the person who posted, can look at their own thoughts, and
rules, and expectations and see if they can't tweak them toward the
direction they want to be with their children.

Several who have known me online (or in person) for the dozen or so
years I've been in discussions like this have asked how I can
patiently answer the same questions year after year without
throttling people. It's because I know that when someone *does*
change in understanding, the world gets better for their children.
The world might be uncomfortable for the mom that day, but if she had
wanted to stay the same, she never could have found this list. If
she found this list and read some and thought it was bogus, she never
would have posted on this list.

I assume that people come to this list because they want to change.

I am now, finally, getting tired of things like this (which came on
the side, not to the list):

-=- i don't think i can do better!!! i think YOU
can do better, if you could maybe be less confrontational and more in
tune with the ideas of understanding and empathy, that you speak of
regarding children.-=-

The understanding and empathy I recommend parents show to their
children is a parent and child thing, and I can't be expected to
treat over 1000 people (however many are on this list) like they're
on my children.

BUT WAIT! This list isn't a question and answer column where all the
answers come from me. Not at all. When people post here they get
several people's feedback. And they get the feedback from people who
are pretty likely to be giving unschooling-focussed answers. That
happens because I keep the list running, and keep spam and
distractions off of it.

Below is a link to an explanation of why I think people who want help
should get help quickly and directly. With my kids, they have 18
years to learn to read, use a bank account and wipe their butts (not
in that order). With parents who have children, they do not have 18
years to change. They don't have ten years. They don't have five.
They need to change before more damage is done to their relationship,
before it's so far gone they no longer want to regroup and re-direct.

http://sandradodd.com/unschool/gettingit

And here are quotes from people who say they wish they had changed
sooner:
http://sandradodd.com/ifonly

I am very interested in helping those people. I'm less interested in
helping people who want to be coddled, who complain about how I
phrase things, and who want to take years to consider whether they'll
change their ways. The statement before is NOT about any individual,
it's about hundreds of people who have come through and complained
instead of coming through to look at what they're doing in the light
of what others have discovered.

If my website and articles and this list and UnschoolingDiscussion
are not to someone's tastes, that's to be expected. That's fine. I
really don't think I should change them because a few people wish
they were different. I don't think it's courteous or reasonable for
people to ask me to do my volunteer work just the way they imagine
they would do it if they were me.

I have said before "If you can do it better, do it!" And I don't
mean that in a mean way at all. Anyone who sees flaws and can help
others in a better way should really, honestly, truly, do it. The
more free help people have, the better.

Is it because it's free that I get complaints? Maybe. If someone
pays money to a counsellor they just either accept the help or they
quit going, they don't harrass the person to change and do differently.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

I meant to write:
I can't be expected to treat over 1000 people (however many are on
this list) like they're
all my children.

but I wrote this
-=-like they're on my children.-=-


Sorry.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kacsshultz

Ironically, it has often been those train-wreck threads and defensive
posters that have been the most instructive to me.

Perhaps it is the posters' seemingly ridiculous inflexibility that
somehow highlights to me how crazy it is to be inflexible; perhaps it
is the "oh, I can do better than that" though pattern that goes
through my head. Almost always they reinforce the fact that it is
very possible to do things a different way.

On the flip side, though, it's not helpful if real facilitators of
change get burnt out from that kind of dialogue.

Kelly




--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
>
> From time to time someone wants me to treat people on this list
the
> way I treat my children.
> What I want to do with this list is to help other adults discover
and
> refine ways to treat their children more the way I treat my
children,
> if they want to.
>
> I have a sign on my door, just put there last month, a paper taped
> there at eye level that says
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++
> NO SOLICITORS
>
> No tree trimming,
> no petitions
> no missionaries
> no encyclopedia sales
> no yard cleaning.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Unlike some other people I know, I have listened to missionaries
at
> length, invited them in, read their stuff, told them I admire
their
> dedication, given them cold drinks or water. I've let Jehovah's
> Witnesses talk to me at length, and LDS guys. Lately I decided I
> need to spend my time in other ways. I'm getting old.
>
> Kirby's working nights. Holly sleeps late. Whenever anyone
touches
> our door the dog barks a high, painful bark. I don't want people
to
> trim our trees or clean our yard and someone was coming to the
door
> once a week or so. I don't want to sign petitions for anyone to
run
> for office or for people to pressure the government to do
something
> about something I never heard of.
>
> Does that mean I'm telling my children not to talk to me about
> religion or not to help me in the yard?
>
> I will let Holly sleep as late as she wants to and I'll make her
> anything she wants for breakfast, when she wants me to make her
> breakfast, which isn't all the time, just sometimes. This morning
I
> was glad to make fried eggs and toast for her. She was sweet and
> grateful.
>
> Does that mean I should let just anyone sleep at my house as late
as
> they want and then request a special breakfast?
>
> And on this discussion list, I'm not trying to mother people. I'm
> trying to discuss ideas and factors and practices that make
parenting
> antagonistic, when those come up, so that ALL the people on the
list,
> not just the person who posted, can look at their own thoughts,
and
> rules, and expectations and see if they can't tweak them toward
the
> direction they want to be with their children.
>
> Several who have known me online (or in person) for the dozen or
so
> years I've been in discussions like this have asked how I can
> patiently answer the same questions year after year without
> throttling people. It's because I know that when someone *does*
> change in understanding, the world gets better for their
children.
> The world might be uncomfortable for the mom that day, but if she
had
> wanted to stay the same, she never could have found this list. If
> she found this list and read some and thought it was bogus, she
never
> would have posted on this list.
>
> I assume that people come to this list because they want to change.
>
> I am now, finally, getting tired of things like this (which came
on
> the side, not to the list):
>
> -=- i don't think i can do better!!! i think YOU
> can do better, if you could maybe be less confrontational and more
in
> tune with the ideas of understanding and empathy, that you speak of
> regarding children.-=-
>
> The understanding and empathy I recommend parents show to their
> children is a parent and child thing, and I can't be expected to
> treat over 1000 people (however many are on this list) like
they're
> on my children.
>
> BUT WAIT! This list isn't a question and answer column where all
the
> answers come from me. Not at all. When people post here they get
> several people's feedback. And they get the feedback from people
who
> are pretty likely to be giving unschooling-focussed answers. That
> happens because I keep the list running, and keep spam and
> distractions off of it.
>
> Below is a link to an explanation of why I think people who want
help
> should get help quickly and directly. With my kids, they have 18
> years to learn to read, use a bank account and wipe their butts
(not
> in that order). With parents who have children, they do not have
18
> years to change. They don't have ten years. They don't have
five.
> They need to change before more damage is done to their
relationship,
> before it's so far gone they no longer want to regroup and re-
direct.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/unschool/gettingit
>
> And here are quotes from people who say they wish they had changed
> sooner:
> http://sandradodd.com/ifonly
>
> I am very interested in helping those people. I'm less interested
in
> helping people who want to be coddled, who complain about how I
> phrase things, and who want to take years to consider whether
they'll
> change their ways. The statement before is NOT about any
individual,
> it's about hundreds of people who have come through and complained
> instead of coming through to look at what they're doing in the
light
> of what others have discovered.
>
> If my website and articles and this list and UnschoolingDiscussion
> are not to someone's tastes, that's to be expected. That's fine.
I
> really don't think I should change them because a few people wish
> they were different. I don't think it's courteous or reasonable
for
> people to ask me to do my volunteer work just the way they imagine
> they would do it if they were me.
>
> I have said before "If you can do it better, do it!" And I don't
> mean that in a mean way at all. Anyone who sees flaws and can
help
> others in a better way should really, honestly, truly, do it. The
> more free help people have, the better.
>
> Is it because it's free that I get complaints? Maybe. If someone
> pays money to a counsellor they just either accept the help or
they
> quit going, they don't harrass the person to change and do
differently.
>
> Sandra
>

kacsshultz

I did not mean to offend anyone by my use of the word ridiculous (as
in diminishing anyone's personal experience); I have been
ridiculously inflexible myself in the past. It is sort of a way to
develop self awareness, I guess.

Just didn't want a misunderstanding based on poor word choice.

Kelly

--- In [email protected], "kacsshultz" <kashultz@...>
wrote:
>
> Ironically, it has often been those train-wreck threads and
defensive
> posters that have been the most instructive to me.
>
> Perhaps it is the posters' seemingly ridiculous inflexibility that
> somehow highlights to me how crazy it is to be inflexible; perhaps
it
> is the "oh, I can do better than that" though pattern that goes
> through my head. Almost always they reinforce the fact that it is
> very possible to do things a different way.
>
> On the flip side, though, it's not helpful if real facilitators of
> change get burnt out from that kind of dialogue.
>
> Kelly
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@>
> wrote:
> >
> > From time to time someone wants me to treat people on this list
> the
> > way I treat my children.
> > What I want to do with this list is to help other adults discover
> and
> > refine ways to treat their children more the way I treat my
> children,
> > if they want to.
> >
> > I have a sign on my door, just put there last month, a paper
taped
> > there at eye level that says
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++
> > NO SOLICITORS
> >
> > No tree trimming,
> > no petitions
> > no missionaries
> > no encyclopedia sales
> > no yard cleaning.
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > Unlike some other people I know, I have listened to missionaries
> at
> > length, invited them in, read their stuff, told them I admire
> their
> > dedication, given them cold drinks or water. I've let Jehovah's
> > Witnesses talk to me at length, and LDS guys. Lately I decided
I
> > need to spend my time in other ways. I'm getting old.
> >
> > Kirby's working nights. Holly sleeps late. Whenever anyone
> touches
> > our door the dog barks a high, painful bark. I don't want people
> to
> > trim our trees or clean our yard and someone was coming to the
> door
> > once a week or so. I don't want to sign petitions for anyone to
> run
> > for office or for people to pressure the government to do
> something
> > about something I never heard of.
> >
> > Does that mean I'm telling my children not to talk to me about
> > religion or not to help me in the yard?
> >
> > I will let Holly sleep as late as she wants to and I'll make her
> > anything she wants for breakfast, when she wants me to make her
> > breakfast, which isn't all the time, just sometimes. This
morning
> I
> > was glad to make fried eggs and toast for her. She was sweet
and
> > grateful.
> >
> > Does that mean I should let just anyone sleep at my house as late
> as
> > they want and then request a special breakfast?
> >
> > And on this discussion list, I'm not trying to mother people.
I'm
> > trying to discuss ideas and factors and practices that make
> parenting
> > antagonistic, when those come up, so that ALL the people on the
> list,
> > not just the person who posted, can look at their own thoughts,
> and
> > rules, and expectations and see if they can't tweak them toward
> the
> > direction they want to be with their children.
> >
> > Several who have known me online (or in person) for the dozen or
> so
> > years I've been in discussions like this have asked how I can
> > patiently answer the same questions year after year without
> > throttling people. It's because I know that when someone *does*
> > change in understanding, the world gets better for their
> children.
> > The world might be uncomfortable for the mom that day, but if she
> had
> > wanted to stay the same, she never could have found this list.
If
> > she found this list and read some and thought it was bogus, she
> never
> > would have posted on this list.
> >
> > I assume that people come to this list because they want to
change.
> >
> > I am now, finally, getting tired of things like this (which came
> on
> > the side, not to the list):
> >
> > -=- i don't think i can do better!!! i think YOU
> > can do better, if you could maybe be less confrontational and
more
> in
> > tune with the ideas of understanding and empathy, that you speak
of
> > regarding children.-=-
> >
> > The understanding and empathy I recommend parents show to their
> > children is a parent and child thing, and I can't be expected to
> > treat over 1000 people (however many are on this list) like
> they're
> > on my children.
> >
> > BUT WAIT! This list isn't a question and answer column where all
> the
> > answers come from me. Not at all. When people post here they
get
> > several people's feedback. And they get the feedback from people
> who
> > are pretty likely to be giving unschooling-focussed answers.
That
> > happens because I keep the list running, and keep spam and
> > distractions off of it.
> >
> > Below is a link to an explanation of why I think people who want
> help
> > should get help quickly and directly. With my kids, they have
18
> > years to learn to read, use a bank account and wipe their butts
> (not
> > in that order). With parents who have children, they do not have
> 18
> > years to change. They don't have ten years. They don't have
> five.
> > They need to change before more damage is done to their
> relationship,
> > before it's so far gone they no longer want to regroup and re-
> direct.
> >
> > http://sandradodd.com/unschool/gettingit
> >
> > And here are quotes from people who say they wish they had
changed
> > sooner:
> > http://sandradodd.com/ifonly
> >
> > I am very interested in helping those people. I'm less
interested
> in
> > helping people who want to be coddled, who complain about how I
> > phrase things, and who want to take years to consider whether
> they'll
> > change their ways. The statement before is NOT about any
> individual,
> > it's about hundreds of people who have come through and
complained
> > instead of coming through to look at what they're doing in the
> light
> > of what others have discovered.
> >
> > If my website and articles and this list and
UnschoolingDiscussion
> > are not to someone's tastes, that's to be expected. That's
fine.
> I
> > really don't think I should change them because a few people
wish
> > they were different. I don't think it's courteous or reasonable
> for
> > people to ask me to do my volunteer work just the way they
imagine
> > they would do it if they were me.
> >
> > I have said before "If you can do it better, do it!" And I
don't
> > mean that in a mean way at all. Anyone who sees flaws and can
> help
> > others in a better way should really, honestly, truly, do it.
The
> > more free help people have, the better.
> >
> > Is it because it's free that I get complaints? Maybe. If
someone
> > pays money to a counsellor they just either accept the help or
> they
> > quit going, they don't harrass the person to change and do
> differently.
> >
> > Sandra
> >
>

jenstarc4

> I am now, finally, getting tired of things like this (which came
on
> the side, not to the list):
>
> -=- i don't think i can do better!!! i think YOU
> can do better, if you could maybe be less confrontational and more
in
> tune with the ideas of understanding and empathy, that you speak of
> regarding children.-=-
>
> The understanding and empathy I recommend parents show to their
> children is a parent and child thing, and I can't be expected to
> treat over 1000 people (however many are on this list) like
they're
> on my children.
>

Ironically some of those very same people that accuse Sandra of being
mean and insenstive, trash her behind her back on other boards.

It's always seemed weird to me when people complain about Sandra, or
other posters. I have never seen Sandra be mean to someone online.
It's always about the ideas, not the person. I've seen people get
all defensive and weird and reactionary many many times over the
years and blame it all on Sandra, even when other people are saying
the same thing in their own words, it's still Sandra's fault somehow.

I recognize a lot of people on many boards that I've seen over the
years. I've met a small handfull of them in real life. The one
brief time I met Sandra she was kind and generous. After having read
her posts for years, I didn't think she would be anything but kind
and generous.

Amy

Sandra,

I'm in love with your words and I appreciate your candor. So many
people won't give a real answer. That's difficult for me. I mean, if
I didn't want the answer, I wouldn't ask the question. It's not always
pleasant, but I don't recall learning anything from happy sweet answers.

You have undoubtedly made the world a better place for so many people.
That you continue to donate your valuable time to help the rest of us
is generous.

Thank you.

~Amy

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm in love with your words and I appreciate your candor. So many
people won't give a real answer. That's difficult for me. I mean, if
I didn't want the answer, I wouldn't ask the question.-=-

Thanks.

I don't always have THE answer, but I do always try to give a real
answer. Or sometimes I try to ask real questions, so that the person
can find her own answers (in the teaching a man to fish way).

If this list and other such sources can help others figure out how to
find their own answers that's way better than giving simple "just do
this" answers.

I think that's why sometimes people get mad and accuse us of picking
apart their words instead of just telling them what to do. If they
can just rearrange their thinking a little bit, better answers will
start flooding in. If we keep telling them what to do, they'll keep
asking us what to do.

That's why principles work better than rules, in unschooling. It's
the same reason learning from everything all the time is better than
reliance on a curriculum.

Helping people find lots of different ways to see is better than
telling them what to look at.

Empowering people is good.

Yesterday Holly and I saw "No Reservations." The main character is
seeing a therapist, and clearly wasting her time and money there week
after week by not being honest or open with him. At one point he
puts a dig to her that she can't help but think about, and she asks
something like "So is this a new technique, insulting the client?"
As he turns away, he says "Only the best therapists use it," or some
such (I didn't write it down at the time; should've!)

When he was being kind and nice, she was feeling soothed and
justified in not actually sharing. When he showed her something she
was doing that repeatedly sabotaged her own happiness, it pissed her
off, but she was able to change enough to have a happier life because
of it.

I'm not saying it's a good plan to purposely irritate someone, and
that's not what I do, but if someone is saying "I keep grounding my
kid and it's not helping," I won't hesitate to say "You just said
yourself it's not helping, so why do you keep doing it?" And if the
person says "You don't know enough about me to say something like
that, every single other person who's reading it will know that
either I know enough to say that (because given all the options in
the world it's what the poster chose to write and post), or the
poster wasn't careful or honest (which also happens sometimes).

Sandra





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

:: anne | arun ::

ive dont think ive posted on this list but been a lurker for a long
time. That in part justifies my slightly long post here...

Sandra � ive found your insights and perspectives to be invaluable.
Often challenging but that is why i am here � from about a year ago i
had decided to make changes and was looking for ideas, techniques and
principles to replace the old parenting me.

You certainly seem patient. I would not invite missionaries into the
house as I tend to be pretty picky as to where and with whom i invest
my time and energy. You also seem to have amazing energy for all of
us out here... it has been an effort for me even to write this email
(i often laugh to myself that i could do a better parenting blog and
write more on these lists if i did not have kids � lol!)

i totally get it if what you are saying is that you have limited
time & energy and need to "cut to the chase" in your responses. I do
truly appreciate you and others in your generosity in sharing so much
of yourselves, your experience & wisdom.

However if the aim of this list is to assist more people in making
major shifts to a RU position, in my humble opinion, that would be
more effectively served by a more empathetic and compassionate
unschooling community... both in the real and virtual world

Parenting is of course a very personal thing. And the thing about
personal stuff is that people take them personally. In a perfect
world people would be able to just focus on ideas and not feel like
they are being personally attacked when a radical idea lands in their
inbox with their name on it. However we are not in a perfect world
and parents on this list must bring their baggage, fears, guilt and
other stuff.

Its not about being a counsellor. Nor do I expect you or anyone else
to mother or coddle me (well ... i wouldnt mind my mum doing that!).
But I honestly do believe that a little bit of compassion and empathy
go a long way towards more effective communication. They have with my
children and I am finding the same thing in other parts of my life
also...

I do believe that ultimately it is up to each individual to make
change or not � they have to open the door. However I also think we
as a community could help more people widen that door with a cultural
shift. It does not cost anything and often is just a difference of a
few words or way of phrasing things. The message can be just as
sharp, pointed and challenging... yet with that greater compassion
and empathy on occasion the same message will more often fall on open
ears.

Perhaps you are simply of the "Sergeant Major School of Thought". You
know... all those bad war movies with the full on Sergeant Major who
yells at the new recruits to "harden" them for the war out there
because hes only got a matter of weeks before they face battle. The
new recruits hate it at the time, then in the midst of shelling they
all say "Thank God for the Sergeant Major". Of course you dont
yell... but you get my point. I do believe there is space for "tough
love" and words that cut to the core but that is just one aspect to
communication...

With my time on this list i have all to often seen some poor shmuck
innocently share an issue or challenge they face only to get
responses that, while i agree with the content, the form would scare
away many, or worse get them defensive and get them posting more
frustrating arguments and lead to very frustrating threads... in many
ways that style creates "more work" for you and others who keep
engaging in the argument that ensues.

So again I say thank you. I am concerned if you truly are getting
fatigued at what you do because it is of real value to many including
myself. You are a very powerful force for parenting change... but i
do believe that a "Sandra with added compassion and empathy for other
parents" would be even more powerful!

Im naming you because you initiated this post, but of course its not
really about you as you also make the point often... Im really asking
the question � what sort of culture do we want for the unschooling
community? Its worth even the most experienced RU parent asking
themselves this question before they post responses...

Maybe im just a wimpy, over mothered, in need of coddling kind of
guy... but i want a culure of honesty, challenging ideas, sharp
debate (ive got all this)... but also one of compassion,
understanding and empathy (this can be sorely lacking at times). I
really believe that it is that sort of culture that will welcome even
more people to these ideas and practices...

thanks,
arun

_____________________________________________

| anne + arun |
http://www.theparentingpit.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Im really asking the question – what sort of culture do we want
for the unschooling community?-=-

I don't think of it as a community.

Various people go on emotionally about feeling a part of a tribe, or
a community.

I see unschooling as something my family chose to do that other
families have chosen to do. I know how to help them do it. I've
made some friends because of unschooling, but I have lots of friends
who aren't unschoolers too.

If I were a missionary or salesman and needed to try to get as many
people as I could in as quickly as possible, that would be a way
different deal than if I'm staying in one place, building a website,
discussing things with people who've found this list on their own.
It's not that easy a list to find, which is fine with me. It was
always intended to be an advanced unschooling list, only for people
who had already read some John Holt and knew what they wanted to do.
And it was always specifically intended as a list for people who
didn't mind discussions with me. It's my list, my own sole list,
unlike UnschoolingDiscussion which is jointly owned, or other lists
which also sprang from the UnschoolingDiscussion list, lists I'm not
even on. Unschooling Basics. There are others.

http://sandradodd.com/lists/other

I want to do what I do, voluntarily and freely. It would be better
for me and others if those who weren't comfortable with it found a
more comfortable place instead of trying to persuade me to be like
someone or something else.

If I never helped anyone there wouldn't be anyone on the list, and if
I didn't have anything to say, I'd've had nothing to put on the
website. I don't feel the need to help everyone in the whole wide
world. I don't go door to door and I don't advertise. I stay where
I am waiting for people to come and want to discuss the ideas in
depth, and to untangle what seems tangled up in their thinking.

When I started unschooling there were very few resources. I was
lucky because I knew two unschooling families. One family, years
later, started a school and then all their kids were schoolkids
(their dad was the minister of the church attached to the school, so
they kinda needed to go there if the church was going to run a
school). It was a creative artsy school, because their mom's so much
that way. The other family, the kids didn't go to school, but the
parents separated and the dad kept trying to force them to "do work"
and the mom was having a hard time dealing with it all, and it wasn't
ideal. They're all grown now, but it wasn't the most glowing of
unschooling stories, overall. Neither of those families ever did the
online discussion things.

I waited two months for another issue of Growing Without Schooling,
and then I waited again. I read and re-read John Holt books. But
mostly I hung out with Kirby and watched him and talked to him and
showed him the world and took note of his reactions and shared
stories with other moms I knew well from La Leche League. Marty came
along; Holly came along. We never changed or faltered or doubted
unschooling. Most families either started there and ended up
changing course, or they started with school and moved to
unschooling. There are things I've learned from watching families in
person, from meeting families at conferences and keeping up with
their lives sometimes in person, sometimes online, through visits in
their home or mine, or conferences.

Still, it's not a community in a social sense for me. I love knowing
unschoolers, but I'm not depending on them to provide all my social
needs.

Sandra

Gold Standard

>>I want to do what I do, voluntarily and freely. It would be better
>>for me and others if those who weren't comfortable with it found a
>>more comfortable place instead of trying to persuade me to be like
>>someone or something else.<<

Thank you for stating these lines clearly Sandra.

While I have felt offended a couple of times on this list (don't remember
why or by whom), the fact is that each time there was something for me to
learn. Sandra is donating enormously to all of us who care to participate.
She is a very special person, brilliant and gifted, ESPECIALLY in the area
of communication. I mean some of her analogies have been like lightening
bolts of awakening for me. She has moved many people forward on the path of
more respectful and peaceful homes. Why would we expect even more from her?

I don't.

Thank you Sandra,
Jacki

Sandra Dodd

-=-some of her analogies have been like lightening
bolts of awakening for me.-=-

Thanks for that, Jacki.

Sylvia Toyama

Maybe im just a wimpy, over mothered, in need of coddling kind of
guy... but i want a culure of honesty, challenging ideas, sharp
debate (ive got all this)... but also one of compassion,
understanding and empathy (this can be sorely lacking at times).
I really believe that it is that sort of culture that will welcome even
more people to these ideas and practices...

*****

I can see folks feeling this way -- wanting more understanding and
empathy when they post. If this were the only unschooling list on the
internet, that would be a very compelling argument. There are lots of
lists, tho. I belong to several, and I've come to know which lists
will best answer the questions I have in a particular moment, or in the
particular way I feel I need to hear those answers.

When I sense that I've let my issues get in my kids' way and that I'm
really the one who needs to grow a bit, I come here to read, or I post
over at unschooling basics -- because I know that Kelly & Ren won't let
me get away with anything!<g> If I feel the same need for
accountability, but I'm feeling a little vulnerable that day, I'll post
at Always Unschooled or maybe at Shine, where things tend to be a bit
gentler.

On the issue of empathy, another point for me is who gets that empathy -
- the parent posting, or his/her kids who could use more empathy from
that parent? It's not always possible to be empathetic towads both.
When that's the case, the kids get my empathy every time.

The whole idea of being like that drill seargent is an interesting
one. I spent two years as a LaLeche League Leader. It was my *job* to
support the Mom in her goal to breastfeed. It wasn't my job to hold
her hand while she felt sorry for herself and found 15 reasons why she
felt she couldn't nurse. It was my responsibility -- to her and to her
baby -- to remind her that she came to me because she wanted the very
best for her baby. She may have forgotten in that moment -- in her
distress, what her goal was, but I was just removed enough to have the
clarity to remind her -- this is about your baby, not about you. It was
time-sensitive because if she didn't get it now, her supply would
dwindle and her baby would outgrow the nursing days. If that happened,
they would fail at nursing.

Unschooling is much the same way. Our kids are only kids for a short
time -- something less than 20 yrs of childhood in a lifespan of maybe
80 yrs. How those 60 yrs of adulthood turn out has a lot to do with
what I find a way to give to my kids in the first 20 or so. I don't
have the luxury of figuring it over a long time, because every day,
week, month, year that I don't get it, it's my kids who don't get what
I want to give them. I'm 44yo and still wading thru the damage my
parents did to me. I don't want that for my kids, so I'm willing to
offer myself up to folks who won't let me get away with anything.

No one forces anyone to read at this -- or any other -- list. Everyone
on the internet is here by choice. They found their way here and if
what they see/read here makes them so uncomfortable they can't get it,
then they can stop reading.

As to whether or not this is a community, I'm sure people will always
disagree on that point. I don't consider these online groups a tribe or
community. I know some people from these groups(IRL) and I consider
them friends, some who offer me great advice but with whom I have
little other than unschooling in common, some I'd likely not choose for
friends, but who have shared invaluable insights over the years. I may
sometimes bristle at the approach, but I always appreciate their
honesty.

On the local, IRL level, I do belong to an unschooling group I consider
to be my tribe. We enjoy a much deeper level of community and support
than I expect to find online. We share more than unschooling, too, in
many ways. As a group we've been able to achieve a balance of empathy
and accountability. They offer me great friendship and support, and
they know I expect them to call me on it when I'm not being the Mom,
the person, I want to be. We all know each other well enough, and see
each other often enough to be more adept at finding empathy for both
parties while remembering that our common goal is being true to our
principles as radical unschooling parents.

Sylvia

Sandra Dodd

-=-Maybe im just a wimpy, over mothered, in need of coddling kind of
guy... but i want a culure of honesty, challenging ideas, sharp
debate (ive got all this)... but also one of compassion,
understanding and empathy (this can be sorely lacking at times). I
really believe that it is that sort of culture that will welcome even
more people to these ideas and practices...-=-

Does one list need to try to fulfill each member's desires?
COULD one list fulfill each member's desires?

I don't think a list is a culture.
This list is for discussion. It's a small part of my big life. I'm
assuming every other participant here has a really big life and this
list is not what will make or break their unschooling or their
happiness. In any case in which someone has considered this a basket
in which to put all her eggs, that's not something I designed or
invited.


I've seen the odd behavior of people being super-involved and then
over-reactionary. I've seen it with people and churches. Mostly
women and churches. Someone will come and invest lots of time and
energy and praise (some of God, but mostly of the minister or of her
favorite members of the congregation) and then they see a flaw, a
sin, an imperfection. And they get CRAZY about it, totally obsessed
and indignant. And they start badmouthing everyone and every thing
associated with that church, and they practically go atheistic and
they froth, until they find a new church to worship, and they cycle
starts again. Probably, usually, they become unhappy and then look
for the flaw as a justifcation for their unsettled feelings. They
want something or someone to blame besides themselves for their
restlessness or embarrassment or frustration or whatever emotion it
is. So they lash out and blame someone or something prominent and
visible, someone whose name is on the wall or the program, preferably.

I have never tried to be a church, I've never wanted to be anything
like a church, I've just talked about ideas, my whole life. And I've
written ideas down. I've tried them out and changed them, or I've
tried them out and become stronger in my confidence in one idea or
another. I'm not perfect, but I'm confident. I don't know
everything, but when I'm not confident I admit it. About things I
don't know or care about, I don't say a word. Those people who want
me to be perfect somehow, or want this list (or any list, or group,
or club, or church) to fulfill all their needs are showing a needy
immaturity that isn't the fault of the list, group, club or church.

I'm pretty sure that there are ways to help our children grow up
without having that neediness so many adults have maintained since
childhood. I was pretty sure years ago, and I've made choices toward
that direction for 21 years now and my children's demeanor and
carriage and confidence have done nothing to make me think I was all
wrong.

http://sandradodd.com/respect

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-With my time on this list i have all to often seen some poor shmuck
innocently share an issue or challenge they face only to get
responses that, while i agree with the content, the form would scare
away many, or worse get them defensive and get them posting more
frustrating arguments and lead to very frustrating threads... in many
ways that style creates "more work" for you and others who keep
engaging in the argument that ensues.-=-

When others' ideas are clarified, it's not work. It's joy.

If someone says "I never really understood this until that moment,"
then someone learned. The person who learns the most isn't always
the person who came with a question about how to get two kids to
share a bottle of bubbles. And the learning is rarely about bubbles,
it's about the nature of growth and of what children need.

A child might think she needs bubbles, when she needs something new
and fascinating to look at.

A mom might think she needs one, simple, narrow answer, when she
needs to discover that she can find a way for all her imagined list
of future questions to disappear like little bubbles. Seriously.


Did you know bubbles pop way faster in dry air than humid? I
should've known that, it seems, and it makes sense, but if your kids
like bubbles, and if you're in the desert, wait for one of those
overcast days before it rains, or after it has rained, and check it
out! The bubbles are strong and longer lasting, and prettier with
clouds than with full sun bleaching them out and popping them the
moment they form.

-=- I am concerned if you truly are getting
fatigued at what you do because it is of real value to many including
myself.-=-

I'm not tired of people getting the spark of insight, or of gathering
up free clues and taking them and making their home nest better.
How could I get tired of that!?

I'm tired of criticism from people who can't do better, or haven't
even tried.

Sandra

Amy

<<<I don't always have THE answer, but I do always try to give a real
answer.>>>

Right. And I meant that. I should have said, if I don't want your
answer (or the answers that'll show up on this list) I won't ask the
question. <g> I like your answers because of what they are.
Thoughtful, empowering, real, and full of more questions to ask
myself. I like my Mom's answers because they are blunt, tactless and
educational. I have a friend who would give me a point by point
answer, and one who would never get around to an answer but it would
be a great conversation anyway.

The way you and so many others here of tweaked my brain around to
better thinking is exciting for me.

Okay, thank you for letting me clarify myself.

~Amy


--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I'm in love with your words and I appreciate your candor. So many
> people won't give a real answer. That's difficult for me. I mean, if
> I didn't want the answer, I wouldn't ask the question.-=-
>
> Thanks.
>
> I don't always have THE answer, but I do always try to give a real
> answer. Or sometimes I try to ask real questions, so that the
person
> can find her own answers (in the teaching a man to fish way).
>
> If this list and other such sources can help others figure out how
to
> find their own answers that's way better than giving simple "just
do
> this" answers.
>
> I think that's why sometimes people get mad and accuse us of
picking
> apart their words instead of just telling them what to do. If
they
> can just rearrange their thinking a little bit, better answers
will
> start flooding in. If we keep telling them what to do, they'll
keep
> asking us what to do.
>
> That's why principles work better than rules, in unschooling. It's
> the same reason learning from everything all the time is better
than
> reliance on a curriculum.
>
> Helping people find lots of different ways to see is better than
> telling them what to look at.
>
> Empowering people is good.
>
> Yesterday Holly and I saw "No Reservations." The main character
is
> seeing a therapist, and clearly wasting her time and money there
week
> after week by not being honest or open with him. At one point he
> puts a dig to her that she can't help but think about, and she
asks
> something like "So is this a new technique, insulting the
client?"
> As he turns away, he says "Only the best therapists use it," or
some
> such (I didn't write it down at the time; should've!)
>
> When he was being kind and nice, she was feeling soothed and
> justified in not actually sharing. When he showed her something
she
> was doing that repeatedly sabotaged her own happiness, it pissed
her
> off, but she was able to change enough to have a happier life
because
> of it.
>
> I'm not saying it's a good plan to purposely irritate someone, and
> that's not what I do, but if someone is saying "I keep grounding
my
> kid and it's not helping," I won't hesitate to say "You just said
> yourself it's not helping, so why do you keep doing it?" And if
the
> person says "You don't know enough about me to say something like
> that, every single other person who's reading it will know that
> either I know enough to say that (because given all the options in
> the world it's what the poster chose to write and post), or the
> poster wasn't careful or honest (which also happens sometimes).
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Cally Brown

> -=-With my time on this list i have all to often seen some poor shmuck
> innocently share an issue or challenge they face only to get
> responses that, while i agree with the content, the form would scare
> away many, or worse get them defensive and get them posting more
> frustrating arguments and lead to very frustrating threads... in many
> ways that style creates "more work" for you and others who keep
> engaging in the argument that ensues.-=-
>
I agree that the form can scare people away. But the thing is that on a
list, there are lots of people and you don't have to take one person's
posts to heart - you can read other people's posts too - one's that fit
your style better. If the over all tone of a list is not to someone's
liking - go find one that suits better!

Personally I have been put off lists where the tone has been all
sweetness and comfort and that's fine, you're lovely blah blah. That
drives me nuts till I leave. I love the precise sharpness of Sandra's
responses: it's precisely because of her tone that she can cut through
the defenses in my head and make me reassess and reevaluate my ideas.
The gentle sweetie nature of some other people's posts just lulls me
into complacency. When I feel a stab of indignation while reading one of
Sandra's comments, I know it's time to take a deep breath and look
inside myself, not criticize her!

Cally
>