RE: [AlwaysLearning] unschooling and daycare
Gold Standard
>>Now I see why schools are so structured, they really need to be to keepthings running smooth. I just want to change that >>in my house.<<
Harmony, I don't see how you can unschool 15 kids by yourself. If you are
really wanting to give your own children a rich unschooling life, is there a
way you can reduce the kids in your home? Or the time you have them (18
hours a day 7 days a week? Jiminy Cricket!). I have four kids who are all
teenagers now and I don't feel like I gave them all that was best for them
when they were little simply because I was trying to do it by myself, and
there were only four. I can't even fathom 15!
It is probably a matter of income, and it is understandable that some
compromises may need to be made in little bits because of that, but this is
where I would advise change. If you were to think of just your family first,
and what they want and need (time, individual attention, support, a parent
who thinks of extra things for them when they don't even ask, a rested
parent without stress), and then try to build an income around that, I think
you could make a great unschooling environment. Maybe it means giving up
luxuries, or downsizing the house, or buying store-brand food, but so what.
We've downsized big-time in the past to accommodate our lifestyle. The
reduced stress and reduced need to make money was such a gift for them. They
never missed the space.
Just one thought,
Jacki
Sandra Dodd
-=-I want to teach the kids independence, but it also has to be
limited. Example: if they tell me they are thirsty, I don't get them
a drink, I say "So, what are you going to do about it?"-=
The statement "I want to teach the kids..." shows me you're still
thinking of yourself in terms of teaching. And running a daycare,
that's a reasonable thought. But you don't "teach" independence, you
nurture it.
I really, really do not like your example.
A child was thirsty and went to an adult.
A child was thirsty and went to the woman who was to take care of her.
The adult said "So what are you going to do about it?"
That's harsh and cruel.
The child already did something about it, something reasonable and good.
Maybe if you had already had some easily accessible drinks down low,
even cups half filled with water, then you could say "There's some
water, or do you want juice?"
Or if the drinks aren't out and available, you could say "I'll help
you get something," or "What would you like to drink?
One good way to help figure out how to deal respectfully with a child
is to consider how you would respond to a guest in your home. If
you had a guest, would he even get thirsty? Most people offer guests
a drink right away, and renew the offer every hour or two. But if
you had a guest who said "I'm thirsty," I'm guessing you would not in
a million years say "SO, what are you going to do about it?"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
limited. Example: if they tell me they are thirsty, I don't get them
a drink, I say "So, what are you going to do about it?"-=
The statement "I want to teach the kids..." shows me you're still
thinking of yourself in terms of teaching. And running a daycare,
that's a reasonable thought. But you don't "teach" independence, you
nurture it.
I really, really do not like your example.
A child was thirsty and went to an adult.
A child was thirsty and went to the woman who was to take care of her.
The adult said "So what are you going to do about it?"
That's harsh and cruel.
The child already did something about it, something reasonable and good.
Maybe if you had already had some easily accessible drinks down low,
even cups half filled with water, then you could say "There's some
water, or do you want juice?"
Or if the drinks aren't out and available, you could say "I'll help
you get something," or "What would you like to drink?
One good way to help figure out how to deal respectfully with a child
is to consider how you would respond to a guest in your home. If
you had a guest, would he even get thirsty? Most people offer guests
a drink right away, and renew the offer every hour or two. But if
you had a guest who said "I'm thirsty," I'm guessing you would not in
a million years say "SO, what are you going to do about it?"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Long story short, I guess I just want advice on keeping things
relaxed and individual, yet still keep 15 kids under control. I can't
always let them work on projects, etc. whenever they want because I'd
have major mess, little ones would get into it, etc. Now I see why
schools are so structured, they really need to be to keep things
running smooth. I just want to change that in my house.-=-
Your house is a daycare. You DO need to keep things running smoothly.
What kids do during six or ten hours away from home isn't in the same
category as the kinds of choices kids make when they're living in
their own homes 24/7/365/life.
Instead of "under control," maybe think of "busy and interested."
Maybe you could look online for discussion and description of free
school or open classroom, and see what kinds of interest stations
they've set up.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
relaxed and individual, yet still keep 15 kids under control. I can't
always let them work on projects, etc. whenever they want because I'd
have major mess, little ones would get into it, etc. Now I see why
schools are so structured, they really need to be to keep things
running smooth. I just want to change that in my house.-=-
Your house is a daycare. You DO need to keep things running smoothly.
What kids do during six or ten hours away from home isn't in the same
category as the kinds of choices kids make when they're living in
their own homes 24/7/365/life.
Instead of "under control," maybe think of "busy and interested."
Maybe you could look online for discussion and description of free
school or open classroom, and see what kinds of interest stations
they've set up.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
harmony
-=-I want to teach the kids independence, but it also has to be
limited. Example: if they tell me they are thirsty, I don't get them
a drink, I say "So, what are you going to do about it?"-=
The statement "I want to teach the kids..." shows me you're still
thinking of yourself in terms of teaching. And running a daycare,
that's a reasonable thought. But you don't "teach" independence, you
nurture it.
I really, really do not like your example.
A child was thirsty and went to an adult.
A child was thirsty and went to the woman who was to take care of her.
The adult said "So what are you going to do about it?"
That's harsh and cruel.
The child already did something about it, something reasonable and good.
Maybe if you had already had some easily accessible drinks down low,
even cups half filled with water, then you could say "There's some
water, or do you want juice?"
Or if the drinks aren't out and available, you could say "I'll help
you get something," or "What would you like to drink?
One good way to help figure out how to deal respectfully with a child
is to consider how you would respond to a guest in your home. If
you had a guest, would he even get thirsty? Most people offer guests
a drink right away, and renew the offer every hour or two. But if
you had a guest who said "I'm thirsty," I'm guessing you would not in
a million years say "SO, what are you going to do about it?"
Sandra
------all the kids have cups in the house in a low drawer and outside on the table with their names on them and we have faucets that they can reach and jugs of water outside that they can get by themselves. They all know that and as soon as I ask them "what are you going to do?" they walk over and get themselves water. I don't say it in a rude way by any means. The other option would be for them to ask me for a drink and I would get it. If they tell me they are thirst, they are just stating a fact, not asking me to do something about it.
As far as teaching the kids independence, I guess I could clarify with teach them the skills they need to have independence over their daily needs. Such as getting their own water, not asking to go to the bathroom, etc.
Harmony
limited. Example: if they tell me they are thirsty, I don't get them
a drink, I say "So, what are you going to do about it?"-=
The statement "I want to teach the kids..." shows me you're still
thinking of yourself in terms of teaching. And running a daycare,
that's a reasonable thought. But you don't "teach" independence, you
nurture it.
I really, really do not like your example.
A child was thirsty and went to an adult.
A child was thirsty and went to the woman who was to take care of her.
The adult said "So what are you going to do about it?"
That's harsh and cruel.
The child already did something about it, something reasonable and good.
Maybe if you had already had some easily accessible drinks down low,
even cups half filled with water, then you could say "There's some
water, or do you want juice?"
Or if the drinks aren't out and available, you could say "I'll help
you get something," or "What would you like to drink?
One good way to help figure out how to deal respectfully with a child
is to consider how you would respond to a guest in your home. If
you had a guest, would he even get thirsty? Most people offer guests
a drink right away, and renew the offer every hour or two. But if
you had a guest who said "I'm thirsty," I'm guessing you would not in
a million years say "SO, what are you going to do about it?"
Sandra
------all the kids have cups in the house in a low drawer and outside on the table with their names on them and we have faucets that they can reach and jugs of water outside that they can get by themselves. They all know that and as soon as I ask them "what are you going to do?" they walk over and get themselves water. I don't say it in a rude way by any means. The other option would be for them to ask me for a drink and I would get it. If they tell me they are thirst, they are just stating a fact, not asking me to do something about it.
As far as teaching the kids independence, I guess I could clarify with teach them the skills they need to have independence over their daily needs. Such as getting their own water, not asking to go to the bathroom, etc.
Harmony
Sandra Dodd
-=-As far as teaching the kids independence, I guess I could clarify
with teach them the skills they need to have independence over their
daily needs. Such as getting their own water, not asking to go to the
bathroom, etc.-=-
From an unschooling point of view, that looks very, very much like
school.
It's important in a school context for children to "be independent."
They use that term, but it's a cruel shadow of real "independence."
Still, teachers aren't paid to tie shoes or wipe butts or spoon feed
kids. (Except teachers of disabled kids, who ARE paid to do those
things, or have paid aids to do it.)
Children want to learn to do what adults do. It's what they do.
They learn. They don't need to be "taught the skills." They need to
have opportunities to see what adults do, and kindly assistance to
try it out themselves when they're ready and interested. If it takes
one kid two minutes and another two years to learn some everyday
skill, that's how it goes. They're learning.
To see learning and call it learning instead of seeing end results
and using the term "teaching" is crucial to an understanding of
unschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
There are some examples of teaching vs. learning, in language and
thought.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
with teach them the skills they need to have independence over their
daily needs. Such as getting their own water, not asking to go to the
bathroom, etc.-=-
From an unschooling point of view, that looks very, very much like
school.
It's important in a school context for children to "be independent."
They use that term, but it's a cruel shadow of real "independence."
Still, teachers aren't paid to tie shoes or wipe butts or spoon feed
kids. (Except teachers of disabled kids, who ARE paid to do those
things, or have paid aids to do it.)
Children want to learn to do what adults do. It's what they do.
They learn. They don't need to be "taught the skills." They need to
have opportunities to see what adults do, and kindly assistance to
try it out themselves when they're ready and interested. If it takes
one kid two minutes and another two years to learn some everyday
skill, that's how it goes. They're learning.
To see learning and call it learning instead of seeing end results
and using the term "teaching" is crucial to an understanding of
unschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
There are some examples of teaching vs. learning, in language and
thought.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
harmony
==Sandra wrote:
==Children want to learn to do what adults do. It's what they do.
== They learn. They don't need to be "taught the skills." They need to
== have opportunities to see what adults do, and kindly assistance to
== try it out themselves when they're ready and interested. If it takes
==one kid two minutes and another two years to learn some everyday
== skill, that's how it goes. They're learning.
So if a kid cannot tie his shoes and he wants them tied, I tell him that I can show him how. He is excited to conquer this new skill. I show and tell him how to do it, he works right alongs side me with the other shoe. He does it and is excited. I have just taught him how. Yes, I taught him. What other way would he learn. Perhaps I'm not really an unschooler at all because when my kids ask me to teach them how to do something, I teach them.
Harmony
==Children want to learn to do what adults do. It's what they do.
== They learn. They don't need to be "taught the skills." They need to
== have opportunities to see what adults do, and kindly assistance to
== try it out themselves when they're ready and interested. If it takes
==one kid two minutes and another two years to learn some everyday
== skill, that's how it goes. They're learning.
So if a kid cannot tie his shoes and he wants them tied, I tell him that I can show him how. He is excited to conquer this new skill. I show and tell him how to do it, he works right alongs side me with the other shoe. He does it and is excited. I have just taught him how. Yes, I taught him. What other way would he learn. Perhaps I'm not really an unschooler at all because when my kids ask me to teach them how to do something, I teach them.
Harmony
Sandra Dodd
-=-He does it and is excited. I have just taught him how. Yes, I
taught him. What other way would he learn. Perhaps I'm not really an
unschooler at all because when my kids ask me to teach them how to do
something, I teach them.-=-
So you're not even willing to read the link I sent?
It couldn't be that you think learning is only for kids, could it?
If you really love the idea that children can't learn without you
teaching them, then go there and be happy.
It's not unschooling, but your lack of interest in understanding
unschooling won't change the fact that those who DO look at learning
as something that happens inside the learner are transformed by that
knowledge.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
Don't be afraid to look; it's just words, right?
-=-Yes, I taught him. What other way would he learn.-=-
Look back at this in a few months or years, and you'll know why I
reacted as I did.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
taught him. What other way would he learn. Perhaps I'm not really an
unschooler at all because when my kids ask me to teach them how to do
something, I teach them.-=-
So you're not even willing to read the link I sent?
It couldn't be that you think learning is only for kids, could it?
If you really love the idea that children can't learn without you
teaching them, then go there and be happy.
It's not unschooling, but your lack of interest in understanding
unschooling won't change the fact that those who DO look at learning
as something that happens inside the learner are transformed by that
knowledge.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
Don't be afraid to look; it's just words, right?
-=-Yes, I taught him. What other way would he learn.-=-
Look back at this in a few months or years, and you'll know why I
reacted as I did.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wisdomalways5
--- In [email protected], "harmony" <harmony@...> wrote:
ask for water it is available right over there." I tell my friends
that they can look through my fridge or cupboards and decided what
looks or sounds appealing to them or I tell them what is available.
I also agree that 15 kids is a lot to take care of when they are not
yours. You could imagine that they are all your friends and how would
you treat them or keep them "under control".
looking at ways to have an open or democratic daycare would help more
than open parenting because you are not parenting these kids and they
will go home to a whole new set of rules.
JulieH
JulieH
>I think the more respectful thing would be to say "you do not need to
>
>
> -=-I want to teach the kids independence, but it also has to be
> limited. Example: if they tell me they are thirsty, I don't get them
> a drink, I say "So, what are you going to do about it?"-=
>
ask for water it is available right over there." I tell my friends
that they can look through my fridge or cupboards and decided what
looks or sounds appealing to them or I tell them what is available.
I also agree that 15 kids is a lot to take care of when they are not
yours. You could imagine that they are all your friends and how would
you treat them or keep them "under control".
looking at ways to have an open or democratic daycare would help more
than open parenting because you are not parenting these kids and they
will go home to a whole new set of rules.
JulieH
JulieH
harmony
-=-He does it and is excited. I have just taught him how. Yes, I
-taught him. What other way would he learn. Perhaps I'm not really an
-unschooler at all because when my kids ask me to teach them how to do
-something, I teach them.-=-
- So you're not even willing to read the link I sent?
- It couldn't be that you think learning is only for kids, could it?
- If you really love the idea that children can't learn without you
- teaching them, then go there and be happy.
-It's not unschooling, but your lack of interest in understanding
-unschooling won't change the fact that those who DO look at learning
-as something that happens inside the learner are transformed by that
-knowledge.
-[LINK: http://sandradodd.com/wordswords%5d http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
-Don't be afraid to look; it's just words, right?
Yes, I did read the link, but back to my original post, I asked if anyone had suggestions for running a daycare smoothly in an unschooling style, I didn't ask for my wording to be critiqued. SO, if anyone has any suggestions that would be wonderful. I did a search for unschools and they are very fascinating to me, thanks for the info.
Harmony
-taught him. What other way would he learn. Perhaps I'm not really an
-unschooler at all because when my kids ask me to teach them how to do
-something, I teach them.-=-
- So you're not even willing to read the link I sent?
- It couldn't be that you think learning is only for kids, could it?
- If you really love the idea that children can't learn without you
- teaching them, then go there and be happy.
-It's not unschooling, but your lack of interest in understanding
-unschooling won't change the fact that those who DO look at learning
-as something that happens inside the learner are transformed by that
-knowledge.
-[LINK: http://sandradodd.com/wordswords%5d http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
-Don't be afraid to look; it's just words, right?
Yes, I did read the link, but back to my original post, I asked if anyone had suggestions for running a daycare smoothly in an unschooling style, I didn't ask for my wording to be critiqued. SO, if anyone has any suggestions that would be wonderful. I did a search for unschools and they are very fascinating to me, thanks for the info.
Harmony
harmony
--- In [LINK: mailto:AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com]
[email protected], "harmony" <harmony@...> wrote:
ask for water it is available right over there." I tell my friends
that they can look through my fridge or cupboards and decided what
looks or sounds appealing to them or I tell them what is available.
I also agree that 15 kids is a lot to take care of when they are not
yours. You could imagine that they are all your friends and how would
you treat them or keep them "under control".
----and I guess what I meant by under control is more or less if one kid is painting, another wants to color, another wants to play with babies, etc. It won't take long before the one playing with babies is now eating crayons, the one painting is now painting babies, etc. There would be too many things going on at once if I gave them total free will to do what interests them.
[email protected], "harmony" <harmony@...> wrote:
>I think the more respectful thing would be to say "you do not need to
>
>
> -=-I want to teach the kids independence, but it also has to be
> limited. Example: if they tell me they are thirsty, I don't get them
> a drink, I say "So, what are you going to do about it?"-=
>
ask for water it is available right over there." I tell my friends
that they can look through my fridge or cupboards and decided what
looks or sounds appealing to them or I tell them what is available.
I also agree that 15 kids is a lot to take care of when they are not
yours. You could imagine that they are all your friends and how would
you treat them or keep them "under control".
----and I guess what I meant by under control is more or less if one kid is painting, another wants to color, another wants to play with babies, etc. It won't take long before the one playing with babies is now eating crayons, the one painting is now painting babies, etc. There would be too many things going on at once if I gave them total free will to do what interests them.
wisdomalways5
--- In [email protected], "harmony" <harmony@...> wrote:
with babies, etc. It won't take long before the one playing with
babies is now eating crayons, the one painting is now painting
babies, etc. There would be too many things going on at once if I
gave them total free will to do what interests them.
mindset and since these kids are not yours it will be a little more
difficult. Maybe you could set things up in such a way that they
have more access to stuff but then you have to have tme slots for
doing things and what if you have one child who wants to paint all
day and one who wants to play babbies all day.
One question what are the ages of these children? and are you alone
in taking care of them
>them
>
>
> --- In [LINK: mailto:AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com]
> [email protected], "harmony" <harmony@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > -=-I want to teach the kids independence, but it also has to be
> > limited. Example: if they tell me they are thirsty, I don't get
> > a drink, I say "So, what are you going to do about it?"-=need to
> >
>
> I think the more respectful thing would be to say "you do not
> ask for water it is available right over there." I tell my friendsavailable.
> that they can look through my fridge or cupboards and decided what
> looks or sounds appealing to them or I tell them what is
>not
> I also agree that 15 kids is a lot to take care of when they are
> yours. You could imagine that they are all your friends and howwould
> you treat them or keep them "under control".one kid is painting, another wants to color, another wants to play
>
> ----and I guess what I meant by under control is more or less if
with babies, etc. It won't take long before the one playing with
babies is now eating crayons, the one painting is now painting
babies, etc. There would be too many things going on at once if I
gave them total free will to do what interests them.
>I think you have to understand that this is NOT free reign it is a
mindset and since these kids are not yours it will be a little more
difficult. Maybe you could set things up in such a way that they
have more access to stuff but then you have to have tme slots for
doing things and what if you have one child who wants to paint all
day and one who wants to play babbies all day.
One question what are the ages of these children? and are you alone
in taking care of them
wisdomalways5
--- In [email protected], "harmony" <harmony@...> wrote:
skill. I show and tell him how to do it, he works right alongs side
me with the other shoe. He does it and is excited. I have just
taught him how. Yes, I taught him. What other way would he learn.
Perhaps I'm not really an unschooler at all because when my kids ask
me to teach them how to do something, I teach them.
him and he "learned" it all by himself. You can not MAKE another
person learn something you can show or expose them but they have to
do the learning
>need to
> ==Sandra wrote:
> ==Children want to learn to do what adults do. It's what they do.
> == They learn. They don't need to be "taught the skills." They
> == have opportunities to see what adults do, and kindly assistanceto
> == try it out themselves when they're ready and interested. If ittakes
> ==one kid two minutes and another two years to learn some everydayhim that I can show him how. He is excited to conquer this new
> == skill, that's how it goes. They're learning.
>
> So if a kid cannot tie his shoes and he wants them tied, I tell
skill. I show and tell him how to do it, he works right alongs side
me with the other shoe. He does it and is excited. I have just
taught him how. Yes, I taught him. What other way would he learn.
Perhaps I'm not really an unschooler at all because when my kids ask
me to teach them how to do something, I teach them.
> HarmonyYou need to realize that you did not "teach" the child you "showed"
>
him and he "learned" it all by himself. You can not MAKE another
person learn something you can show or expose them but they have to
do the learning
Sandra Dodd
-=-I did a search for unschools and they are very fascinating to me-=-
I didn't recommend searching for unschools. I think I said open
classroom. Very, VERY, very different.
-=-Yes, I did read the link, but back to my original post, I asked if
anyone had suggestions for running a daycare smoothly in an
unschooling style, I didn't ask for my wording to be critiqued.-=-
A daycare cannot be unschooling.
If you don't want your thoughts and ideas to be examined, how can we
tell where you are to help you get to another, different place?
If you intend to insist that those children can't learn without you
teaching them, perhaps you should find a different list on which to
ask your questions. You won't be very happy with the answers you
get from unschooling parents, I think.
Sandra
the owner of the list
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I didn't recommend searching for unschools. I think I said open
classroom. Very, VERY, very different.
-=-Yes, I did read the link, but back to my original post, I asked if
anyone had suggestions for running a daycare smoothly in an
unschooling style, I didn't ask for my wording to be critiqued.-=-
A daycare cannot be unschooling.
If you don't want your thoughts and ideas to be examined, how can we
tell where you are to help you get to another, different place?
If you intend to insist that those children can't learn without you
teaching them, perhaps you should find a different list on which to
ask your questions. You won't be very happy with the answers you
get from unschooling parents, I think.
Sandra
the owner of the list
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-and I guess what I meant by under control is more or less if one
kid is painting, another wants to color, another wants to play with
babies, etc. It won't take long before the one playing with babies is
now eating crayons, the one painting is now painting babies, etc.
There would be too many things going on at once if I gave them total
free will to do what interests them. -=-
"Free will" is not something you can give them.
If you will let people show you the foggy places in your thinking, it
will really help you clarify what you want and need and see. It
won't hurt us if you don't want help, but it won't help you if you
refuse help.
-=- There would be too many things going on at once if I gave them
total free will to do what interests them. -=-
If you mean you want to direct their activities and can't give them
freedom of choice, you might be right--you might not have much
option. But people on this list cannot magically make what you're
doing be unschooling. Without choices, the kids don't have choices.
Suggestions for making preschool activities fun are all over the
web. You'll be able to find those easily.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kid is painting, another wants to color, another wants to play with
babies, etc. It won't take long before the one playing with babies is
now eating crayons, the one painting is now painting babies, etc.
There would be too many things going on at once if I gave them total
free will to do what interests them. -=-
"Free will" is not something you can give them.
If you will let people show you the foggy places in your thinking, it
will really help you clarify what you want and need and see. It
won't hurt us if you don't want help, but it won't help you if you
refuse help.
-=- There would be too many things going on at once if I gave them
total free will to do what interests them. -=-
If you mean you want to direct their activities and can't give them
freedom of choice, you might be right--you might not have much
option. But people on this list cannot magically make what you're
doing be unschooling. Without choices, the kids don't have choices.
Suggestions for making preschool activities fun are all over the
web. You'll be able to find those easily.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Yes, I did read the link, but back to my original post, I asked if
anyone had suggestions for running a daycare smoothly in an
unschooling style, I didn't ask for my wording to be critiqued. ~~
You have shunned the suggestions given to you. You want to hold onto
the mainstream ideas yet be more unschooly. Won't work. When you
trust that the children will learn just fine without you teaching
them, you'll be on your way to running a more unschool friendly daycare.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
anyone had suggestions for running a daycare smoothly in an
unschooling style, I didn't ask for my wording to be critiqued. ~~
You have shunned the suggestions given to you. You want to hold onto
the mainstream ideas yet be more unschooly. Won't work. When you
trust that the children will learn just fine without you teaching
them, you'll be on your way to running a more unschool friendly daycare.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
harmony
the kids are 2-8 years old and my husband helps
Harmony Hogan
471-9461
257-3358
www.reptilemurals.com
-------Original Message-------
From: wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: unschooling and daycare
Sent: Aug 01 '07 2:22pm
--- In [LINK: mailto:AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com]
[email protected], "harmony" <harmony@...> wrote:
with babies, etc. It won't take long before the one playing with
babies is now eating crayons, the one painting is now painting
babies, etc. There would be too many things going on at once if I
gave them total free will to do what interests them.
mindset and since these kids are not yours it will be a little more
difficult. Maybe you could set things up in such a way that they
have more access to stuff but then you have to have tme slots for
doing things and what if you have one child who wants to paint all
day and one who wants to play babbies all day.
One question what are the ages of these children? and are you alone
in taking care of them
Harmony Hogan
471-9461
257-3358
www.reptilemurals.com
-------Original Message-------
From: wisdomalways5 <wisdom1133@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: unschooling and daycare
Sent: Aug 01 '07 2:22pm
--- In [LINK: mailto:AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com]
[email protected], "harmony" <harmony@...> wrote:
>[email protected], "harmony" <harmony@> wrote:
>
>
> --- In [LINK: mailto:AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com]
> [LINK: mailto:AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com]
> >them
> >
> >
> > -=-I want to teach the kids independence, but it also has to be
> > limited. Example: if they tell me they are thirsty, I don't get
> > a drink, I say "So, what are you going to do about it?"-=need to
> >
>
> I think the more respectful thing would be to say "you do not
> ask for water it is available right over there." I tell my friendsavailable.
> that they can look through my fridge or cupboards and decided what
> looks or sounds appealing to them or I tell them what is
>not
> I also agree that 15 kids is a lot to take care of when they are
> yours. You could imagine that they are all your friends and howwould
> you treat them or keep them "under control".one kid is painting, another wants to color, another wants to play
>
> ----and I guess what I meant by under control is more or less if
with babies, etc. It won't take long before the one playing with
babies is now eating crayons, the one painting is now painting
babies, etc. There would be too many things going on at once if I
gave them total free will to do what interests them.
>I think you have to understand that this is NOT free reign it is a
mindset and since these kids are not yours it will be a little more
difficult. Maybe you could set things up in such a way that they
have more access to stuff but then you have to have tme slots for
doing things and what if you have one child who wants to paint all
day and one who wants to play babbies all day.
One question what are the ages of these children? and are you alone
in taking care of them
harmony
~~Yes, I did read the link, but back to my original post, I asked if
anyone had suggestions for running a daycare smoothly in an
unschooling style, I didn't ask for my wording to be critiqued. ~~
-- You have shunned the suggestions given to you. You want to hold onto
the mainstream ideas yet be more unschooly. Won't work. When you
trust that the children will learn just fine without you teaching
them, you'll be on your way to running a more unschool friendly daycare.
Ren--
My own kids are unschooled. They make their own choices and learn what they want to learn. They are 8 and 10 years old. Maybe I have just misunderstood the suggestions. The only "suggestions" I have heard are that I either can't "unschool" daycare kids because they aren't my kids and that I don't understand unschooling. What I am looking for may not be unschooling by your definition, I want a relaxed fun atmosphere where children are treated as individuals and have choices in what they do and how they do it. Has anyone ever done that with a large group of kids? If not, I will just keep doing what I am doing and trying different suggestions that I get.
Harmony
anyone had suggestions for running a daycare smoothly in an
unschooling style, I didn't ask for my wording to be critiqued. ~~
-- You have shunned the suggestions given to you. You want to hold onto
the mainstream ideas yet be more unschooly. Won't work. When you
trust that the children will learn just fine without you teaching
them, you'll be on your way to running a more unschool friendly daycare.
Ren--
My own kids are unschooled. They make their own choices and learn what they want to learn. They are 8 and 10 years old. Maybe I have just misunderstood the suggestions. The only "suggestions" I have heard are that I either can't "unschool" daycare kids because they aren't my kids and that I don't understand unschooling. What I am looking for may not be unschooling by your definition, I want a relaxed fun atmosphere where children are treated as individuals and have choices in what they do and how they do it. Has anyone ever done that with a large group of kids? If not, I will just keep doing what I am doing and trying different suggestions that I get.
Harmony
Ren Allen
~~ What I am looking for may not be unschooling by your definition, I
want a relaxed fun atmosphere where children are treated as
individuals and have choices in what they do and how they do it.~~
Perhaps not.
One of the first suggestions was about your answer to the child that
says "I'm thirsty". If it's going to be a relaxed, fun atmosphere, you
need to be someone they can trust. I don't care how sweetly you say
"so what are you going to do?" it's not nice.
A child that is thirsty might be coming to you because they want help.
They might want an adult to spend some time with them or they might
have forgotten where the cups are momentarily. Either way, a "relaxed,
fun" atmosphere would include a more responsive adult when someone
wants a drink.
A relaxed, fun atmosphere isn't about this:
~~Yes, I -taught him. What other way would he learn~~
Especially if you claim to be trying to incorporate unschooly ideas
with children that are not your own. Children learn. They'll learn
whether you teach or not. They'll learn better if you think of them as
your partners in a journey (even those that are in your care for only
part of their lives) and assist them in whatever way they need.
The other suggestion was about the shoe.....I would tie the shoe. If
the child wanted to be shown how to do it, that doesn't necessarily
mean they are ready. If they learn at 5 or 8 or 5, what does it
matter? If they learn without being taught, then they've proved your
theory incorrect.
Daycare is not an ideal situation of course. But if you truly
understand unschooling then you might want to simply be responsive,
have fun with them with as little agenda as possible, and try to let
go of the idea that they MUST have you in order to learn things
they're interested in.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
want a relaxed fun atmosphere where children are treated as
individuals and have choices in what they do and how they do it.~~
Perhaps not.
One of the first suggestions was about your answer to the child that
says "I'm thirsty". If it's going to be a relaxed, fun atmosphere, you
need to be someone they can trust. I don't care how sweetly you say
"so what are you going to do?" it's not nice.
A child that is thirsty might be coming to you because they want help.
They might want an adult to spend some time with them or they might
have forgotten where the cups are momentarily. Either way, a "relaxed,
fun" atmosphere would include a more responsive adult when someone
wants a drink.
A relaxed, fun atmosphere isn't about this:
~~Yes, I -taught him. What other way would he learn~~
Especially if you claim to be trying to incorporate unschooly ideas
with children that are not your own. Children learn. They'll learn
whether you teach or not. They'll learn better if you think of them as
your partners in a journey (even those that are in your care for only
part of their lives) and assist them in whatever way they need.
The other suggestion was about the shoe.....I would tie the shoe. If
the child wanted to be shown how to do it, that doesn't necessarily
mean they are ready. If they learn at 5 or 8 or 5, what does it
matter? If they learn without being taught, then they've proved your
theory incorrect.
Daycare is not an ideal situation of course. But if you truly
understand unschooling then you might want to simply be responsive,
have fun with them with as little agenda as possible, and try to let
go of the idea that they MUST have you in order to learn things
they're interested in.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
jenstarc4
> My own kids are unschooled. > HarmonyHow do your kids feel about the daycare? That would be the paramount
>
question really.
I have on occasion watched other people's children, either for money
or just because I'm nice and I like the kids and the parents of the
kids. I've done it on a regular basis before, and even under the
best circumstances, dealing with another person's child isn't the
same as just interacting with your own children. There were days
when my kids didn't want other kids around, they wanted their space
to be theirs. They didn't want to share their toys and get along,
and if someone is counting on me for child care, I couldn't give that
to them.
It seems that it would be a big deal to have a lot of kids over all
the time, it interferes with family life and family dynamics.
Perhaps your family doesn't have these issues, but I don't see how
that's possible if you have kids over 7 days a week. I can't tell
you how to run your business, but why not make it 5 days a week
during regular business hours, or make yourself an off hour daycare
and don't accept kids during regular business hours and only off
hours for those that need it.
I understand the draw of running a daycare for income, as you can do
it at home along side your kids and have playmates for them. I just
really don't see how you can give your own kids the time they need to
unschool and take care of so many kids. Much of dealing with large
amounts of kids has to do with order and control. Even in a free
school environment there is some amount of order and control, and the
kids are mostly older than what you are dealing with.
For a while I tried starting a school that was intended for
homeschoolers, to offer some cool classes and whatnot. Ultimately
what it came down to, was that it wasn't conducive to unschooling for
my own child. (My youngest was a baby) It was fun, yet, when my
daughter didn't want to go, she still had to since I had to. It
lasted about 9 mos. It was an interesting experiment and we got a
lot out of it, but in the end, it was difficult to do that part time
and unschool.
Ultimately it comes down to how dedicated you are to unschooling your
own kids. If that is what you truly want, taking a look at the whole
daycare stuff is warranted. You can make your daycare as unschooly
as possible, but it still may not work along side unschooling your
own kids.
So when you ask if there have been others doing what you are doing, I
would say that I've tried to do similar things, but ended up stopping
because it truly wasn't condusive to unschooling my own kids and that
was far more important than the little bit of extra money I got. If
there are others more successful than I was, I don't know. My
experience says it can't be done, and I'm a pretty "can do" sort of
person. I say this because I've found that to truly unschool your
kids, you have to give them "you". It is a very important part of
unschooling, to be present and there for your kids when they need
you. I just don't see how one can do that and be a caregiver to 15
other children, without your own kids getting the short end of the
stick so to speak.
harmony
= One of the first suggestions was about your answer to the child that
says "I'm thirsty". If it's going to be a relaxed, fun atmosphere, you
need to be someone they can trust. I don't care how sweetly you say
= "so what are you going to do?" it's not nice.
I guess I don't see it as not nice and I don't feel that the kids take it in a mean way, or naturally, I would do it. Lots of times kids don't stop and think things through. If I ask them and they say they don't know then we talk about what options they have such as asking me or someone else to get them something or getting it themselves, or waiting until lunch or snack time. If if was a new kid that was not used to doing things for themselves then of course I would tell them that it is okay for them to just get a drink and they don't have to ask permission and if they want me to do it for them, I would.And I would make sure they knew how to do it. Once the kids are comfortable here, they have no problem helping themselves. Once they know that they don't need permission to get a drink or go to the bathroom they do fine doing in on their own. Sometimes they just say it out of habbit, but once I ask "what are you going to do if your thirsty" they know what to do and they are learing independence.
I also agree that kids don't need to be taught independence, (I said that not knowing how carefully I had to word things on this list) but they need to know that they can be independent at my house and they learn the skills to do that. Most of my kids come from very low income single parent families, not all of them have a house or a car and they don't have very nurturing parents, I want them to learn that they do matter as people and they can think for themselves without being yelled at or spanked.
All the kids at my house get along really well, they help each other all the time and they love being here, I just feel like there is more that I can offer them, but I'm not sure how. SO I'm sorry if I sound like I'm not listening to you philosopy on unschooling,or wording thing correctly, but I feel like your not trying to give me any helpful advice, your just trying to convince me that I'm not truley unschooling.
says "I'm thirsty". If it's going to be a relaxed, fun atmosphere, you
need to be someone they can trust. I don't care how sweetly you say
= "so what are you going to do?" it's not nice.
I guess I don't see it as not nice and I don't feel that the kids take it in a mean way, or naturally, I would do it. Lots of times kids don't stop and think things through. If I ask them and they say they don't know then we talk about what options they have such as asking me or someone else to get them something or getting it themselves, or waiting until lunch or snack time. If if was a new kid that was not used to doing things for themselves then of course I would tell them that it is okay for them to just get a drink and they don't have to ask permission and if they want me to do it for them, I would.And I would make sure they knew how to do it. Once the kids are comfortable here, they have no problem helping themselves. Once they know that they don't need permission to get a drink or go to the bathroom they do fine doing in on their own. Sometimes they just say it out of habbit, but once I ask "what are you going to do if your thirsty" they know what to do and they are learing independence.
I also agree that kids don't need to be taught independence, (I said that not knowing how carefully I had to word things on this list) but they need to know that they can be independent at my house and they learn the skills to do that. Most of my kids come from very low income single parent families, not all of them have a house or a car and they don't have very nurturing parents, I want them to learn that they do matter as people and they can think for themselves without being yelled at or spanked.
All the kids at my house get along really well, they help each other all the time and they love being here, I just feel like there is more that I can offer them, but I'm not sure how. SO I'm sorry if I sound like I'm not listening to you philosopy on unschooling,or wording thing correctly, but I feel like your not trying to give me any helpful advice, your just trying to convince me that I'm not truley unschooling.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I also agree that kids don't need to be taught independence, (I
said that not knowing how carefully I had to word things on this
list)-=-
To suggest that you this lists requires you to be more careful with
words and thoughts than other places in your world says something.
It doesn't say anything about this list, though.
Careful thought should be for all occasions.
-=-O I'm sorry if I sound like I'm not listening to you philosopy on
unschooling,or wording thing correctly, but I feel like your not
trying to give me any helpful advice, your just trying to convince me
that I'm not truley unschooling.-=-
The way to do things in an unschooling way is to become an unschooler
to the point that you don't think any other way. We're trying to
help you change the way you see, while you're saying "Tell me what to
do."
What to do is to change the way you're seeing learning. There is no
more helpful advice except maybe
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
and
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/gettingit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
said that not knowing how carefully I had to word things on this
list)-=-
To suggest that you this lists requires you to be more careful with
words and thoughts than other places in your world says something.
It doesn't say anything about this list, though.
Careful thought should be for all occasions.
-=-O I'm sorry if I sound like I'm not listening to you philosopy on
unschooling,or wording thing correctly, but I feel like your not
trying to give me any helpful advice, your just trying to convince me
that I'm not truley unschooling.-=-
The way to do things in an unschooling way is to become an unschooler
to the point that you don't think any other way. We're trying to
help you change the way you see, while you're saying "Tell me what to
do."
What to do is to change the way you're seeing learning. There is no
more helpful advice except maybe
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
and
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/gettingit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
>>I want a relaxed fun atmosphere where children are treated >>asindividuals and have choices in what they do and how they do it. Has anyone
ever done that with a large group of kids?<<
Years ago, before hearing the word "unschool", I ran a preschool. It was
based on Sudbury Valley School, which I highly recommend you look into for
your situation (not that I think it is an ideal situation, but appears to be
the kind of thing you are looking for). Free, open concept, kids making
their own decisions while living within rules created by them and the
teachers.
It was messy, fun, engaging, stimulating, and probably the best child care
type of situation anywhere around there at the time.
It was exhausting for me. Allowing children to be free, and being their
partner in their individual journeys, was just downright exhausting. I had
21 children and one other adult with me.
Now let's talk about my kids. They were, for much of the time, ignored by
me. I didn't mean to ignore them, but they could see how busy I was, and how
tired this job made me. They usually did not come to me for extra attention
or to seek things. At the time in my fogged understanding (which felt quite
clear at the time) I believed that they were simply really content. I really
wouldn't have known for sure though, because I was so busy and engaged with
so many kids.
And I had principled ethics about the situation...these parents were paying
money and I owed it to them and their children to make sure the kids' needs
and wants were met. So I often chose to fulfill those needs over checking in
with my kids, at least during "school hours". I would be the best mom in the
world after that, and I do believe that was somewhat helpful. But while
other kids were with us, which was for about 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, I
did not give them as much attention as they needed. They really did need me
to check in with them, as they were not going to add to what they could see
I was already so involved in. Squeeze their unbelievable empathic hearts.
And I STILL feel guilty about that.
So that is my experience. I got out of it pretty quickly, thankfully, and
began to really know my children again. That was about 10 years ago. Today
they are 13, 15, 17 and 18 and boy are we in a different place today than we
would have been if I continued on that course.
Jacki
Gold Standard
= One of the first suggestions was about your answer to the child that
says "I'm thirsty". If it's going to be a relaxed, fun atmosphere, you
need to be someone they can trust. I don't care how sweetly you say
= "so what are you going to do?" it's not nice.
happening here is that a bunch of people who have been where you are trying
to give you some little light bulbs to help you get to a better place with
your children that you may not even know is possible. So here's another
thought...
If you were at a friend's house and said, "I'm thirsty.", and your friend
said, "So what do you think you should do?", that would be a whole different
experience than if she responded, "Oh, please help yourself to whatever
you'd like in the fridge."
Even if she had welcomed you to help yourself twelve times before and
therefore you should know you could help yourself, in the moment that you
asked, that wasn't on your radar, and you would most likely appreciate the
second response a whole lot more than the first.
This is a little, subtle change in thinking regarding how we talk to young
ones. It feels very different to them to be given a statement that is
intended to make them think more, which is manipulative, than to be given
help and support without the test. And that kind of supportive response and
behavior consistently builds a very strong and connected relationship that
lasts.
My teenagers and I are very close. I have really different relationships
with each of them because each of them is very different from the others.
Each one invites me to things with them...movies, concerts, shopping. They
have their friends over who all chat with me openly (as in about sex, drugs,
relationships, their interests, their experiences, etc), many of their
friends hug me spontaneously...I do NOT see this in most of the families I
see around us. I see lots of "rebellious" behavior, a disconnect between
parents and kids, and disrespectful parenting that is touted as "the right
way", which has only further distanced them from their kids.
Choice of words may seem like a minor thing, especially when we are
well-intended, but if we are really serious about unschooling and making our
relationships the best they can be with our kids, then it is pretty darn
important.
Jacki
says "I'm thirsty". If it's going to be a relaxed, fun atmosphere, you
need to be someone they can trust. I don't care how sweetly you say
= "so what are you going to do?" it's not nice.
>>I guess I don't see it as not nice<<Okay, so you're probably feeling picked on by now, but what is really
happening here is that a bunch of people who have been where you are trying
to give you some little light bulbs to help you get to a better place with
your children that you may not even know is possible. So here's another
thought...
If you were at a friend's house and said, "I'm thirsty.", and your friend
said, "So what do you think you should do?", that would be a whole different
experience than if she responded, "Oh, please help yourself to whatever
you'd like in the fridge."
Even if she had welcomed you to help yourself twelve times before and
therefore you should know you could help yourself, in the moment that you
asked, that wasn't on your radar, and you would most likely appreciate the
second response a whole lot more than the first.
This is a little, subtle change in thinking regarding how we talk to young
ones. It feels very different to them to be given a statement that is
intended to make them think more, which is manipulative, than to be given
help and support without the test. And that kind of supportive response and
behavior consistently builds a very strong and connected relationship that
lasts.
My teenagers and I are very close. I have really different relationships
with each of them because each of them is very different from the others.
Each one invites me to things with them...movies, concerts, shopping. They
have their friends over who all chat with me openly (as in about sex, drugs,
relationships, their interests, their experiences, etc), many of their
friends hug me spontaneously...I do NOT see this in most of the families I
see around us. I see lots of "rebellious" behavior, a disconnect between
parents and kids, and disrespectful parenting that is touted as "the right
way", which has only further distanced them from their kids.
Choice of words may seem like a minor thing, especially when we are
well-intended, but if we are really serious about unschooling and making our
relationships the best they can be with our kids, then it is pretty darn
important.
Jacki
Emily Troper
>I want a relaxed fun atmosphere where children are treated asindividuals and have choices in what they do and how they do it. Has
anyone ever done that >with a large group of kids? If not, I will
just keep doing what I am doing and trying different suggestions that
I get.
I am an Early Childhood Educator (ECE) and "taught" preschool for
years - it was very hard work because the lovely place I interned at
(Play Mountain Place, in L.A.) was a very respectful freeschool and
it "ruined" me to work anywhere else :), and at some point, after
"making a living" as a teacher for 7 years, I quit forever - I just
wasn't willing to hurt kids emotionally any more in the name of
convenience and control - I didn't feel right about the number of
hours the children were away from their parents and I didn't feel
right about the limits that were there, sometimes because of the
center or school, but often simply because there were so many of them
and I had them for such long hours. I attempted to start my own
"free-preschool" in 2003, and this is what it looked like http://
familyfreeschool.com/ but it wasn't radical unschooling by any
means. I was also influenced by a woman named Bev Bos - she has an
amazing co-op preschool (just a few hours a day) that is totally non-
academic and free and fun and the kids all do whatever they want -
she was on ABC's 20/20 a few years back - there are tons of materials
available, and they are into respectful communication and are not
concerned about messes or "control". You might want to check out her
website and read some of her articles for some inspiration. http://
www.turnthepage.com/ Another great site I like for "activities" that
appeal to a wide range of ages, is this one http://
www.magicalchildhood.com/index2.htm
Hope it helps!
Emily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
harmony
Thanks for the great advice. I really appreciate it.
Harmony Hogan
471-9461
257-3358
www.reptilemurals.com
-------Original Message-------
From: Gold Standard <jacki@...>
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: unschooling and daycare
Sent: Aug 02 '07 12:23am
anyone
ever done that with a large group of kids?<<
Years ago, before hearing the word "unschool", I ran a preschool. It was
based on Sudbury Valley School, which I highly recommend you look into
for
your situation (not that I think it is an ideal situation, but appears to
be
the kind of thing you are looking for). Free, open concept, kids making
their own decisions while living within rules created by them and the
teachers.
It was messy, fun, engaging, stimulating, and probably the best child
care
type of situation anywhere around there at the time.
It was exhausting for me. Allowing children to be free, and being their
partner in their individual journeys, was just downright exhausting. I
had
21 children and one other adult with me.
Now let's talk about my kids. They were, for much of the time, ignored by
me. I didn't mean to ignore them, but they could see how busy I was, and
how
tired this job made me. They usually did not come to me for extra
attention
or to seek things. At the time in my fogged understanding (which felt
quite
clear at the time) I believed that they were simply really content. I
really
wouldn't have known for sure though, because I was so busy and engaged
with
so many kids.
And I had principled ethics about the situation...these parents were
paying
money and I owed it to them and their children to make sure the kids'
needs
and wants were met. So I often chose to fulfill those needs over checking
in
with my kids, at least during "school hours". I would be the best mom in
the
world after that, and I do believe that was somewhat helpful. But while
other kids were with us, which was for about 8 hours a day, 5 days a
week, I
did not give them as much attention as they needed. They really did need
me
to check in with them, as they were not going to add to what they could
see
I was already so involved in. Squeeze their unbelievable empathic hearts.
And I STILL feel guilty about that.
So that is my experience. I got out of it pretty quickly, thankfully, and
began to really know my children again. That was about 10 years ago.
Today
they are 13, 15, 17 and 18 and boy are we in a different place today than
we
would have been if I continued on that course.
Jacki
Harmony Hogan
471-9461
257-3358
www.reptilemurals.com
-------Original Message-------
From: Gold Standard <jacki@...>
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: unschooling and daycare
Sent: Aug 02 '07 12:23am
>>I want a relaxed fun atmosphere where children are treated >>asindividuals and have choices in what they do and how they do it. Has
anyone
ever done that with a large group of kids?<<
Years ago, before hearing the word "unschool", I ran a preschool. It was
based on Sudbury Valley School, which I highly recommend you look into
for
your situation (not that I think it is an ideal situation, but appears to
be
the kind of thing you are looking for). Free, open concept, kids making
their own decisions while living within rules created by them and the
teachers.
It was messy, fun, engaging, stimulating, and probably the best child
care
type of situation anywhere around there at the time.
It was exhausting for me. Allowing children to be free, and being their
partner in their individual journeys, was just downright exhausting. I
had
21 children and one other adult with me.
Now let's talk about my kids. They were, for much of the time, ignored by
me. I didn't mean to ignore them, but they could see how busy I was, and
how
tired this job made me. They usually did not come to me for extra
attention
or to seek things. At the time in my fogged understanding (which felt
quite
clear at the time) I believed that they were simply really content. I
really
wouldn't have known for sure though, because I was so busy and engaged
with
so many kids.
And I had principled ethics about the situation...these parents were
paying
money and I owed it to them and their children to make sure the kids'
needs
and wants were met. So I often chose to fulfill those needs over checking
in
with my kids, at least during "school hours". I would be the best mom in
the
world after that, and I do believe that was somewhat helpful. But while
other kids were with us, which was for about 8 hours a day, 5 days a
week, I
did not give them as much attention as they needed. They really did need
me
to check in with them, as they were not going to add to what they could
see
I was already so involved in. Squeeze their unbelievable empathic hearts.
And I STILL feel guilty about that.
So that is my experience. I got out of it pretty quickly, thankfully, and
began to really know my children again. That was about 10 years ago.
Today
they are 13, 15, 17 and 18 and boy are we in a different place today than
we
would have been if I continued on that course.
Jacki
Dawn
UNSCHOOLING AND DAYCARE (and yes I'm shouting) TOGETHER ARE AN
OXYMORON... Simple as that....
Namaste
Dawn
Tucson, AZ
Zak 11, Max 7
OXYMORON... Simple as that....
Namaste
Dawn
Tucson, AZ
Zak 11, Max 7
--- In [email protected], "harmony" <harmony@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> -=-He does it and is excited. I have just taught him how. Yes, I
> -taught him. What other way would he learn. Perhaps I'm not
really an
> -unschooler at all because when my kids ask me to teach them how
to do
> -something, I teach them.-=-
>
> - So you're not even willing to read the link I sent?
>
> - It couldn't be that you think learning is only for kids, could
it?
>
> - If you really love the idea that children can't learn without you
> - teaching them, then go there and be happy.
> -It's not unschooling, but your lack of interest in understanding
> -unschooling won't change the fact that those who DO look at
learning
> -as something that happens inside the learner are transformed by
that
> -knowledge.
>
> -[LINK: http://sandradodd.com/wordswords%5d
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
> -Don't be afraid to look; it's just words, right?
>
>
>
> Yes, I did read the link, but back to my original post, I asked if
anyone had suggestions for running a daycare smoothly in an
unschooling style, I didn't ask for my wording to be critiqued. SO,
if anyone has any suggestions that would be wonderful. I did a
search for unschools and they are very fascinating to me, thanks for
the info.
> Harmony
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Choice of words may seem like a minor thing, especially when we are
well-intended, but if we are really serious about unschooling and
making our
relationships the best they can be with our kids, then it is pretty darn
important.-=-
And in the case where someone has just explained to us that it
would've been different if the child had said "Please help me get a
drink" instead of "I'm thirsty," it seems even MORE important that
the person be willing to accept that her own word choices are important.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
well-intended, but if we are really serious about unschooling and
making our
relationships the best they can be with our kids, then it is pretty darn
important.-=-
And in the case where someone has just explained to us that it
would've been different if the child had said "Please help me get a
drink" instead of "I'm thirsty," it seems even MORE important that
the person be willing to accept that her own word choices are important.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Tellew
><<<<I was also influenced by a woman named Bev Bos - she has anI second the idea of looking at Bev Bos' ideas. I've got her books
>amazing co-op preschool (just a few hours a day) that is totally non-
>academic and free and fun and the kids all do whatever they want -
>she was on ABC's 20/20 a few years back - there are tons of materials
>available, and they are into respectful communication and are not
>concerned about messes or "control". You might want to check out her
>website and read some of her articles for some inspiration. http://
>www.turnthepage.com/ >>>
and have heard her speak many times. She's very inspiring but she
doesn't take it all the way to unschooling by any means. But I
especially like her ideas for fun group things to do to allow young
children to explore and be creative. If I had to send my kids to an
institution (or be in one myself), I'd want something like what she has.
She says things like (paraphrasing), "It is not my job to get kids
ready for kindergarden. It is my job to meet them where they are and
do with them what's developmentally appropriate for them now."
My favorite story I ever heard her tell is this (again paraphrasing):
A boy came to school one day and said, "Teacher Bev, I need some
lettuce." I didn't ask why or what for; I said, "What kind of
lettuce?" The boy said, "One of those big round ones." I grabbed a
dad who was leaving after dropping off his child and asked him to go
to the store and get me a head of iceberg lettuce. When he came back
with the lettuce, the boy said, "Now I need some milk and a big
bowl," so I got him those. Then he said, "Now we need to put it in
the microwave." I said, "How long?" He told me three minutes. When
it came out of the microwave, he stirred it a little then said it was done."
Some things that really strike me about that story:
* It's exactly what you'd usually do with your own unschooled
child. Although, depending on the circumstances, you might converse more.
* I love that she grabbed the dad, whom I picture as being a
hurried businessman in a suit and tie and just assumed that this
boy's requests were as important as anything the dad may have to do.
* I can't believe this happens very often in a group setting or
if it does, she must have TONS of help. I know a homeschooling
family whose kid went there and the mom told me that volunteering
there was hard work with lots of cleanup!
Another thing I remember her telling about was buying a 50 pound sack
of flour and letting the kids do what they wanted. We did that for
Nicky's 3rd birthday party. He was getting over chickenpox and I
have a picture of him naked with all his little pox marks covered
with flour. It was outside, of course, very fun for the kids and
really didn't take any clean up at all (since it was in a bare dirt
area of the yard).
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~UNSCHOOLING AND DAYCARE (and yes I'm shouting) TOGETHER ARE AN
OXYMORON... Simple as that....~~
I disagree.
A daycare could be run pretty much like any freeschool. The principles
of trust and respect can (and should)exist within a daycare situation.
I think its a bit simplistic to assume that unschooling can always be
an ideal situation. I think each of us makes our real life challenges
as ideal as possible. I work full-time outside the home, so does dh.
Many people would say unschooling can't possibly unfold in such a
situation. Yet it does here....and quite well.
I hear people talking about how mother's are selfish/horrible
etc...for working full-time rather than being home with their kids.
That is overgeneralizing just as the above statement is. Sure, it's
ideal to have a parent home full-time...definitely. But people without
ideal situations CAN make unschooling work beautifully.
I know some single Moms that ran from bad home situations. They really
needed to work in order to survive and get away from the abusive
situations they left. Two of them I know personally, really WANTED an
unschooling situation but needed daycare in order to EAT and have
housing! They would have been thrilled to find someone who understood
the principles of unschooling to care for their children.
I think the unschooling philosophy can be expanded to include those in
less-than-ideal situations. I think the world in general, needs to get
to a place of more respect to children. Why can't unschooling
philosophy be compatible with daycare? I'm really curious why you
think that.
While I don't go out and advocate both parents working full-time, or
putting your child in daycare, there ARE situations where unschooling
families might need to do those things. Better to have respectful,
mindful people with our children in those scenarios, than maintream,
punishment oriented adults.
Btdt.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
OXYMORON... Simple as that....~~
I disagree.
A daycare could be run pretty much like any freeschool. The principles
of trust and respect can (and should)exist within a daycare situation.
I think its a bit simplistic to assume that unschooling can always be
an ideal situation. I think each of us makes our real life challenges
as ideal as possible. I work full-time outside the home, so does dh.
Many people would say unschooling can't possibly unfold in such a
situation. Yet it does here....and quite well.
I hear people talking about how mother's are selfish/horrible
etc...for working full-time rather than being home with their kids.
That is overgeneralizing just as the above statement is. Sure, it's
ideal to have a parent home full-time...definitely. But people without
ideal situations CAN make unschooling work beautifully.
I know some single Moms that ran from bad home situations. They really
needed to work in order to survive and get away from the abusive
situations they left. Two of them I know personally, really WANTED an
unschooling situation but needed daycare in order to EAT and have
housing! They would have been thrilled to find someone who understood
the principles of unschooling to care for their children.
I think the unschooling philosophy can be expanded to include those in
less-than-ideal situations. I think the world in general, needs to get
to a place of more respect to children. Why can't unschooling
philosophy be compatible with daycare? I'm really curious why you
think that.
While I don't go out and advocate both parents working full-time, or
putting your child in daycare, there ARE situations where unschooling
families might need to do those things. Better to have respectful,
mindful people with our children in those scenarios, than maintream,
punishment oriented adults.
Btdt.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com