deannaMulaly

I need to vent and I could also use some support!
Recently we had a visit from an old friend, a person who I thought
shared my belief system. Now I see that she and I have very different
approaches to raising children! She thinks my daughter, Lauren (8),
needs to be in school. Here is part of an e-mail she sent to me:

"My concerns regarding Lauren involve Ian as well as what you and Tim
can reasonably manage as parents. Not only from the financial point of
view, but also the time and energy drain on you, and problems with
Ian's safety and well-being. This is what prompted my discussion with
Lauren about the golden rule: you know - the one I was asked to
apologize to Lauren over because I 'hurt her feelings' and 'yelled' at
her. Interesting having a 7-year-old in charge, eh? Maybe not so much
for me.

As your good friend, and someone who has successfully invested a lot
in raising two daughters (that are a pleasure for other people to be
around - don't you agree?) I offer you the best advice I know of: put
Lauren in school (while you have this small window of opportunity).
You don't have to re-invent the wheel of her education, fortunately:
take advantage of a system that knows how to teach reading, and when
Lauren's illiteracy problem is solved you can always consider other
options.

Also, if Lauren is brought into line with the structure and discipline
she requires, and if she can learn to relate to others in a healthy
way (rather than constantly manipulating), then raising Ian will be so
much easier. I really want the best for all of you..."

Can you believe her? What is she thinking...I didn't ask for her
advice. I am so irritated and taken aback by her message that I don't
know what to think. Apparently she has an authoritative approach to
children and I never knew this before.
Any thoughts? How would you handle this? I'm thinking the best
response may be none at all.
Thanks!,
Deanna

SHERRY LANGEVIN

Isn't it wonderful to hear what other people think? Tell her 'thanks! if we need any advice, we'll ask you! My kids are a joy to be around, too! School isn't the answer! When did a 7 year old become 'illiterate!', except for in public schools, where 'illiteracy' abounds all the way through high school? And why would p.s. be the answer ? Live your life, I'll be doing mine. Thanks for your concern, Anna.'

She doesn't hold any control over you. Tell her mind her own beeswax. Dont get upset. There are tons of 'experts', You are an expert of your kids, she of hers, maybe.

Sherry

annaMulaly <deannamulaly@...> wrote:
I need to vent and I could also use some support!



_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar


Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

Recent Activity

7
New Members

Visit Your Group
SPONSORED LINKS

Parenting family
Family parenting
Attachment parenting
John holt

Yahoo! TV
"The 9"
Daily count down
of top Web finds.

Fitness Edge
on Yahoo! Groups
Learn how to
increase endurance.

Yahoo! Groups HD
The official Samsung
Y! Group for HDTVs
and devices.



.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-There are tons of 'experts', You are an expert of your kids, she
of hers, maybe.-=-

This isn't as helpful as other things in that post.

Lots of parents think they're experts on their kids.
Lots of other parents make that statement.
They'll say "You know more about your kids than anyone."

Yet I'm sure all of us could think of lots of parents who know diddly
about kids or their own kids, and kids who WISH thier parents cared
or knew something really, truly, directly about them as individuals.

Some parents thing seven year olds should be literate for example.
Probably they haven't even though of what "literate" literally
means. They're just parotting a phrase.

Please be careful of parotting phrases.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

I wouldn't be able to resist sending a response, I think.

But, if this was a friend I might want to keep, I'd say something like:

"I'm sure you wrote out of genuine concern and, for that, I thank
you. I realize that you are giving your honest opinion, I understand
your point of view, and I now ask that you understand that I have
heard and fully considered what you have to say, but I do not agree
with you. I do not care to convince you to see things my way, and I
do not expect you to agree with me. I have chosen an unconventional
path, and I understand that this may be difficult for you to
understand or accept. I hope you can tolerate this difference between
us and will refrain from critiquing my parenting choices from now on.
If not, then we will not be able to remain friends.

-pam


On Jul 29, 2007, at 8:37 AM, deannaMulaly wrote:

> Any thoughts? How would you handle this? I'm thinking the best
> response may be none at all.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chester Crump

I read the email twice. I think she has an extremely haughty tone. One of *I am so obviously a better parent than you* . I don't know you,I don't know this person. But I can say that any *friend* who sent me an email like this would cause me to seriously consider what, if anything we possibly had in common. I would also wonder,and ask her personally why she couldn't have shared these concerns in person,or at least on the phone.
Also maybe ask yourself what in the email really sends you over the edge and look closely at why if you can. I know in my own 46 years of life there have been times when someone dear to me has brought something to the fore and my defensive reaction has been because there was truth in there somewhere.
I am not implying that you have anything to be defensive about. Just giving you another way to look at the email and it's contents.

Kim
deannaMulaly <deannamulaly@...> wrote:
I need to vent and I could also use some support!
Recently we had a visit from an old friend, a person who I thought
shared my belief system. Now I see that she and I have very different
approaches to raising children! She thinks my daughter, Lauren (8),
needs to be in school. Here is part of an e-mail she sent to me:

"My concerns regarding Lauren involve Ian as well as what you and Tim
can reasonably manage as parents. Not only from the financial point of
view, but also the time and energy drain on you, and problems with
Ian's safety and well-being. This is what prompted my discussion with
Lauren about the golden rule: you know - the one I was asked to
apologize to Lauren over because I 'hurt her feelings' and 'yelled' at
her. Interesting having a 7-year-old in charge, eh? Maybe not so much
for me.

As your good friend, and someone who has successfully invested a lot
in raising two daughters (that are a pleasure for other people to be
around - don't you agree?) I offer you the best advice I know of: put
Lauren in school (while you have this small window of opportunity).
You don't have to re-invent the wheel of her education, fortunately:
take advantage of a system that knows how to teach reading, and when
Lauren's illiteracy problem is solved you can always consider other
options.

Also, if Lauren is brought into line with the structure and discipline
she requires, and if she can learn to relate to others in a healthy
way (rather than constantly manipulating), then raising Ian will be so
much easier. I really want the best for all of you..."

Can you believe her? What is she thinking...I didn't ask for her
advice. I am so irritated and taken aback by her message that I don't
know what to think. Apparently she has an authoritative approach to
children and I never knew this before.
Any thoughts? How would you handle this? I'm thinking the best
response may be none at all.
Thanks!,
Deanna






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gold Standard

I like what Pam says here:

>>"I'm sure you wrote out of genuine concern and, for that, I thank
>>you. I realize that you are giving your honest opinion, I understand
>>your point of view, and I now ask that you understand that I have
>>heard and fully considered what you have to say, but I do not agree
>>with you. I do not care to convince you to see things my way, and I
>>do not expect you to agree with me. I have chosen an unconventional
>>path, and I understand that this may be difficult for you to
>>understand or accept. I hope you can tolerate this difference between
>>us and will refrain from critiquing my parenting choices from now on.
>>If not, then we will not be able to remain friends.<<

And I would make the small change to the line "will refrain from critiquing
my parenting choices from now on" to "will refrain from critiquing my
children and my parenting choices from now on".

If you didn't care about keeping her as a friend, I wrote this...probably
too long, but may be helpful:

"It is <sad, upsetting, irritating, fill in the blank> to me that you have
judged my children and my parenting in the way that you did. It is clear
that we think differently about parenting, and just as I am sure you have
reasons for making the choices that you have made, so do I. Both of our
ideas can be strongly supported with studies and evidence. I know the course
that you recommend intimately. My decisions have come from personal
experience, many others' personal experiences, from seeing the results of
that course on the majority of the population, and from seeing many families
who have chosen to give freedom and respect to their children over many
years. My family's journey is an exciting one, not based in the box of "one
size fits all", a box that has created misery for many, many years.

You may not see my children as "pleasures" to be with, and that is
okay...they are growing and learning, and I don't know if they will ever
meet your standards for "pleasure". I do not believe that children should be
expected to always be pleasures to be with. I mean, sure, that would serve a
great purpose for us adults, but I'm pretty sure that is not what is in
their best interest. My kids are learning about society and expectations
over time, with loving guidance along the way.

Personally, I like people to be themselves, whether they are pleasant or
not. It seems that adults are not always expected to be pleasant. While it
is my hope that my children will grow into people that are great to be
around, the process is not automatic and may not always look pretty to
everyone. I have no desire to choose false beauty over real life and
learning. My kids are learning what is acceptable in this society over time,
how to respect by being respected, compassion by being well taken care of
and by being supported...it's all happening. It isn't a lesson that is
learned with a quick scary look, or yell, or swat...it is learned over time
with respectful behavior and guidance.

So I've chosen a path where my kids are learning about the world and who
they are through freedom, support, and guidance. As their passions and
interests are being supported and fed, as they have the freedom to explore
and daydream, as they have supportive adults to help them along the way,
they learn in peace and contentedness. I understand that this isn't an
authoritative or conventional approach. I do not believe in an authoritative
approach in most situations. I believe the authoritative approach causes
more damage than health, especially in relationships.

I don't know if this is a deal-breaker or not with our friendship. I have
valued you as a friend, and at the same time am not interested in this kind
of advice, nor in bringing discontent into my family. I will however be very
happy to ask for it if needed. I am happy to help you with suggestions or
advice at any time as well."

Of course, not responding at all is always an option. She is an example of
someone in the typical mindset, and there are many many people like her. But
maybe you will actually have a positive influence on her if you do respond.
You never know.

Jacki

deannaMulaly

Thanks to all of you for your supportive responses.
I feel better now!
-Deanna

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<school (while you have this small window of opportunity)....
..... take advantage of a system that knows how to teach reading, and when
>>>>

I guess she has never heard of John Taylor Gatto. The person who wrote this
doesn't know anything about natural learning, and actually doesn't know much
about schools either or brain development. Her assessments of educational
issues, and recommendations thereof, can safely be ignored I think.

<<<<< the time and energy drain on you, >>>>

I guess she has little faith in you, although she clearly intends her
remarks as loving.

..<<<<....Lauren's illiteracy problem is solved .....
the structure and discipline
she requires, and if she can learn to relate to others in a healthy
way (rather than constantly manipulating) .....then raising Ian will be so
much easier. >>>>

So she is being really offensive about your daughter, clearly sees her as
flawed, and in effect is suggesting that you sacrifice your dd to the school
system in order to focus on someone I am assuming is her brother. I don't
think I would want someone who had those kinds of thoughts about Jayn
spending any time with her.

Is your dd "constantly manipulating"? Would you like to talk about that idea
at all? I don't think children enact manipulating strategies unless they
feel powerless. People here have lots of ideas for helping children feel
empowered and make better choices.

Is Lauren hurting Ian in some way? Would you like to talk about that? People
here have lots of ideas for helping with sibling conflicts.

Are you financially drained? This is a topic that has been much canvassed on
several of the boards at www.unschooling.info/forum where there are lots of
suggestions for cutting expenditures and still having a fun, enriched
Unschooling life.

I don't like the Golden Rule - at least not the Western Christian version.

In many of the world's great philosophies and religions the Rule is
expressed as "don't do to others that which you wouldn't like done to you".
This I can see the sense of. Don't give pompous unsolicited advice expressed
as a bunch of "you statements" if you wouldn't like receiving it yourself.

Apparently the Bible says roughly "Do unto others that which you would wish
done to you". I was told this by the Chaplain of my Anglican high school as
being a wonderful and special way of expressing the Golden Rule. This is the
Rule I have a problem with.

I wish it said "Do unto others that which *they want* done unto them".

I may want some quiet time alone if I'm tired and overwhelmed, but you may
want to be hugged and brought a pot of tea and a listening ear. See what I
mean? If I did what to you what I would prefer, you might feel simply
abandoned.

<<<<<I really want the best for all of you...>>>>
...."as long as it is the same as what I would want for myself."

I guess your friend would want a bunch of judgments and suggestions made to
her, since she apparently likes the Golden Rule.

How about:
Your concern is appreciated.
Your approval is unnecessary.

I don't like conflict or confrontation. I would probably just not pick up
the phone when it was her, until she stopped calling. I don't have many real
friends, but those I do have are Golden - and the vast majority of them are
Unschoolers.

Robyn L. Coburn

Christy Mahoney

I don't think it would be possible for me NOT to respond to the
message and be around that person again. I really do not like
confrontation, but I had a couple of similar (though not quite as
harsh) messages from family members when my daughter was around 6 or
7 years old. Not so much that I needed to send her to school, but
definitely that she needed more discipline/structure/control and
that she shouldn't "be in charge".

It is a little funny when I look back because when Darcy was a baby
& toddler, these same people asked me for advice because she ate
well, slept well, and was "smart", meaning she walked & talked
earlier than average. Then, when Darcy got a little older and was
very spirited, VERY talkative, impulsive and easily frustrated, they
stopped asking me for advice and started giving it to me whether I
asked for it or not. Their kids weren't all these things, so I must
be doing something wrong.

Does your friend have any real reason to believe that your daughter
would be like hers even if she went to school? Of course not. This
doesn't even make any sense. They are individuals. They have their
own personalities. Even if her children are a pleasure to be with,
does that mean that you want your daughter to be like them?

Maybe you didn't know how your friend could be because she didn't
have much reason to show it before. I don't know her or her
children, but some children are naturally compliant, quiet, and easy
to parent. If hers are like this, perhaps she thinks that's how
kids are.

Truthfully, the thing that bothered me most about the message was
that she put "hurt her feelings" in quotation marks, as if that was
a ridiculous notion or could not be "true".

Good luck. I hope you find the words.

-Christy

Fetteroll

On Jul 29, 2007, at 11:37 AM, deannaMulaly wrote:

> Now I see that she and I have very different
> approaches to raising children! She thinks my daughter, Lauren (8),
> needs to be in school.

I think it's helpful to see that friends and relatives say such
things because they care.

Think of how much courage it took to write that.

Your choices are so far off of what she believes must be true in life
that she's having a hard time wrapping her mind around why you're
doing them. The only conclusion she can come to is that there is so
much you don't understand so she needs to explain it to you.

Think about how you would react if a friend started getting involved
in a cult. They seemed outwardly happy about their discoveries, but
you were certain that this would lead to rack and ruin. Wouldn't you
be confused by how completely your friend was ignoring what was
sensible? Wouldn't you want to try to save them by pointing out the
obvious?

How would you approach such a friend?

You can't make her change her mind. You can offer to share your
research with her so you can discuss it. You can keep repeating "I've
done a lot of research and thought deeply about this. If you'd like
to read, I'd be happy to discuss it with you." But until she makes
the effort to understand, it won't be worth the time to talk about it.

View her as someone who cares deeply but who just doesn't understand.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-How about:
Your concern is appreciated.
Your approval is unnecessary.--=

I definitely think short is better than long. The above is clear and
many have recommended and probably used it.

Another short not-too-confrontational way to approach it is to use
some version of

"We did think of all these things before we made our decisions. If
you'd like to read some of what we've read, here's a list. (or
here's the name of a single book, or here in physical-person is a
real book). When you've read this, if you'd like to discuss it
further, I'd be glad to."


That answer is a volley back into her court that requires her to
research before she says another word.

I lost friends who have either since come back around or have not out
of embarrassment. Both were and are clearly wrong in retrospect, but
I never told them off, I just stated my position briefly and kindly,
or I turned the other cheek. Sometimes I would say "We'll see how it
goes; you might be right." (While thinking 'I doubt you're right,
bitch,' but not saying it.) Always, in the early years, I would say
"If this stops working, we'll do something else." And that might be
worth saying, too.

My kids are fine. None of the kids of those others (if they even had
kids) are as calm or together. Some are older than Kirby and they're
still treated as and act like teens. Sulky, disregarded, insulted,
belittled teens. One went through school and pressures and now has a
job working in the same office where her mom works. If only they'd
let her start doing that when she was 14 or 15 she's be a lot further
along now and less resentful, and maybe less (I'm just guessing)
embarrassed about having believed all the promises of the glory of
finishing school and some college (I think she did a couple of
years). The job she's doing involves things she learned at home
messing with computers. No doubt her mom looks at any scrap of math
or writing or reading and assures her school enabled her to do that.

I do NOT think you should point these things out to your friend at
all, but I'm stating them to reassure you that lots of us have been
there, with some self-righteous friend whose kid is sitting up
straight while ours are running around touching and thinking and
asking questions. There will likely come a day when theirs is still
sullenly still in the same chair while ours are sitting brightly and
still curiously in another chair vainly trying to engage them in
happy, intelligent conversation. Or ours who were once their good
friends are in another, better social sphere altogether.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

graberamy

I'm so glad this topic has come up. My hubby just told me that his
mother called him at work a few weeks ago. She wanted to let him know
how concerned she was that we were not sending our children to public
school. That they would NOT be prepared to take the SAT's or go to
college (they're 8 and 10). He basically just replied "are you done,
thanks, gotta go." The thing is I thought she was always supportive
of our choices (our kids are wonderful...at least I think so!) so this
has kind of taken me be surprise.

I know it took him a while to tell me because the relationship between
my MIL and myself isn't the best, and the fact that he really doesn't
care what she thinks about our choices. Her and my husbands
relationship isn't the best either but it's been like that since he's
been 4! She is very manipulative person.

Interesting,DD (10), mentioned to me last week that all Grandma talks
about is public school and Jesus. My kids don't spend much time w/
their grandparents anymore, but have always enjoyed them in the past.

If this woman was not my MIL, I would care less what she thinks. I
realize I am raising my children in a way that isn't even close to
resembling the way she did. Maybe she takes that personally? Maybe I
could never make her understand, maybe she doesn't even want to
understand. Otherwise maybe she would have come to me instead of my
hubby?

So, do I just say nothing since she didn't approach me? Or do I say
something like "I heard about your concerns, if you're really
interested in learning why we believe the way we do, I'd recommend
such and such." And what would you recommend?? I mean I've been
researching for years...is there just one magically article to that
might help her understand?

Thanks all for the great advice on this topic!!

amy g
in iowa

Pamela Sorooshian

I'd just try to express my understanding that it must be VERY
difficult to be a grandmother and watch your grandchildren being
raised in a way that you really, honestly, think is likely to be
harmful to them. Maybe reassure her that you aren't going to stick
with this if it doesn't seem to be working out.

I think about this - what if my kids end up sending their kids to
high-pressure academically rigorous schools, for example. What if
they medicate them for ADD. What if they get really into pushing
early reading?

And so on....

Guess I'm starting to think more like a grandma now that my kids are
getting into their 20's <G>.

-pam

On Jul 30, 2007, at 8:01 AM, graberamy wrote:

> So, do I just say nothing since she didn't approach me? Or do I say
> something like "I heard about your concerns, if you're really
> interested in learning why we believe the way we do, I'd recommend
> such and such." And what would you recommend?? I mean I've been
> researching for years...is there just one magically article to that
> might help her understand?
>
> Thanks all for the great advice on this topic!!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Her and my husbands
relationship isn't the best either but it's been like that since he's
been 4! She is very manipulative person.
-=-

Personally (more a confession than a recommendation), I would not
hesitate to use that against her if she got in my face. I would be
glad to say "We're hoping for a better relationship with our kids
than you had with yours."

I never said that to my mother in law, but would've if she'd said
any more than she did. I was good at winning sparring moments with
her, so it never went past the first comment many times. I never
said it to her, but I showed it to her in epic technicolor, and am
not through yet. By the time her kids were 21 they were all off
doing something or other fairly questionable. Keith was living with
me and my first husband, after he got back from his return court date
in New Jersey. He spent Christmas his 21st year at my house, saying
he had nowhere to go. His parents lived four hours away, I found out
later, and eventually understood why he wouldn't consider that ANY
kind of fun Christmas.

-=-I am raising my children in a way that isn't even close to
resembling the way she did. Maybe she takes that personally?-=-

No doubt she does.
I would take it personally, I'm sure, if my kids went to smacking
their kids around and putting them in daycare for no pressing
reason. I probably wouldn't keep totally quiet and calm about it.

-=-Maybe I
could never make her understand, maybe she doesn't even want to
understand. Otherwise maybe she would have come to me instead of my
hubby?-=-

Maybe she just wanted to put a dig in at him, and not risk losing an
argument.

-=Do I just say nothing since she didn't approach me? -=-

That's what I'd do.
But if she gets right in your face, consider "We're hoping for a
better relationship with our kids than you had with yours."

<bwg>

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "deannaMulaly"
<deannamulaly@...> wrote:
>
> I need to vent and I could also use some support!
> Recently we had a visit from an old friend, a person who I thought
> shared my belief system. Now I see that she and I have very
different
> approaches to raising children! She thinks my daughter, Lauren
(8),
> needs to be in school. Here is part of an e-mail she sent to me:
>
> "My concerns regarding Lauren involve Ian as well as what you and
Tim
> can reasonably manage as parents. Not only from the financial
point of
> view, but also the time and energy drain on you, and problems with
> Ian's safety and well-being. This is what prompted my discussion
with
> Lauren about the golden rule: you know - the one I was asked to
> apologize to Lauren over because I 'hurt her feelings'
and 'yelled' at
> her. Interesting having a 7-year-old in charge, eh? Maybe not so
much
> for me.
>
> As your good friend, and someone who has successfully invested a
lot
> in raising two daughters (that are a pleasure for other people to
be
> around - don't you agree?) I offer you the best advice I know of:
put
> Lauren in school (while you have this small window of opportunity).
> You don't have to re-invent the wheel of her education,
fortunately:
> take advantage of a system that knows how to teach reading, and
when
> Lauren's illiteracy problem is solved you can always consider other
> options.
>
> Also, if Lauren is brought into line with the structure and
discipline
> she requires, and if she can learn to relate to others in a healthy
> way (rather than constantly manipulating), then raising Ian will
be so
> much easier. I really want the best for all of you..."
>
> Can you believe her? What is she thinking...I didn't ask for her
> advice. I am so irritated and taken aback by her message that I
don't
> know what to think. Apparently she has an authoritative approach
to
> children and I never knew this before.
> Any thoughts? How would you handle this? I'm thinking the best
> response may be none at all.
> Thanks!,
> Deanna
>

This is pretty standard for people who do not understand. I would
simply e-mail that we each get to choose how to raise our kids and
we all will make mistakes but it is for us to choose and while she
can choose her way you can choose yours. I think people get scared
when they see kids having power. My mom likes to say my daughter is
manipulating all of us and I tell her that I hear her but I get to
decide.

JulieH

JulieH

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think people get scared
when they see kids having power.-=-

Very afraid.

If what we do turns out to work, then they will have to take
responsibility for their own choices, and will also have to rethink
all the complacent thoughts they have about their own upbringing.
That is a LOT of uncomfortable work, and we could avoid that for them
if we would just stop making these irritating departures from the
status quo.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jenstarc4

>
> Truthfully, the thing that bothered me most about the message was
> that she put "hurt her feelings" in quotation marks, as if that was
> a ridiculous notion or could not be "true".
>
> Good luck. I hope you find the words.
>
> -Christy
>

This reminded me of something that happened with us a few months
back. I have a friend who is very much invested in the schooling
system. She absolutely hates public schools, for many of the same
reasons that I do, but where we differ is that she still feels that
kids must be taught. At heart she is a teacher, she just feels
schools don't teach well.

There is no way for her to understand what we do and I simply don't
go there with her. When my older daughter was young she really liked
this friend. Little kids really like her, her expectations are very
clear and there isn't any misunderstandings with her. As my daughter
grew, the expectations stayed the same and there were many
misunderstandings because this friend of mine expected my now older
daughter to behave a certain way that wasn't reasonable or respectful
of my daughter.

It felt belittling to her and she stopped wanting to be around this
person at all. I didn't force her. When I started meeting her at a
local coffee shop Chamille started to want to come, not to see this
person, but to go to the cafe.

I feel oddly uncomfortable with my daughter and this friend
together. One day when we were at the cafe, Chamille asked if I
could retreive her coffee from the counter for her. I asked her to
do it please and she got really upset at this, so I went and got it
for her. Later I asked her to get something for me from the car and
she said "no", and went on to say, "now you know how it feels".

That was so incredibly powerful. The thing is, it didn't make me
mad, it made me think. My friend was just beside herself over the
whole thing letting me know how disrespectful my daughter is/was and
that I needed to make her be more respectful. She went on about it
explaining all that I was doing wrong as a parent, etc etc. I
listened politely and told her I would deal with the situation.

This is what happened in the car on the way home... I dealt with the
situation. I let my daughter know that she was absolutely right and
that I indeed had behaved disrespectfuly towards her by not getting
her what she had politely asked me to get, and then asking her to do
something for me and expecting her to do it, when I had been
unwilling to do what she had asked, even though I eventually did.

I think we were both crying about it because it was such an intense
moment. She had every right to be upset with me, especially after
sitting there listening to this friend of mine lecture me about
respect and how to make my daughter respect me and others. My
daughter has absolutely no respect for this woman. However, I think
she has a great deal of respect for me, primaraly because I have a
great deal of respect for her.

We made an agreement about this friend of mine. I told my daughter
that she will always come first, and that my friend is an adult and
can deal with it. She never ever has to come with me to see this
person, and if I need to cancel with my friend because my daughter
needs me, then I won't hesitate to do so, even if it creates
weirdness in the friendship.

Chamille and I had a long hearfelt conversation about all this. She
agreed that if for some reason she had to be around this person that,
if for whatever reason, she was feeling disrespected, she would pull
me aside and discuss it away from this person instead of in front of
her so that it wouldn't insue into another lecture of respect. She
agreed to smile politely and to try to keep her mouth shut and ignore
her as much as possible, and that we would plan in advance to bring
headphones and drawing paper and such.

Here's the thing though, I haven't seen this friend for many months
because my kids come first. I have no desire to see this friend
after what happened the last time. I can choose to hang out with,
and I can choose who will benefit me the most in my life and the path
that I have chosen. It came down to a choice of friend vs daughter,
and my kids know without a doubt I will ALWAYS choose them.

I may have to see this person again down the road. After all we have
known each other for a long time and do have some things in common,
including other friends. I just don't have to make it every week or
every other week. I can make it once in a great while and my kids
don't have to come.

What it came to, was a better understanding between myself and my
daughter, and a better understanding of people and how to deal with
them. We were able to take a "bad" situation and make it a good one.

Chester Crump

I have been a mom for 27 years and am now a grandma myself. I can totally relate to my mom because of where I'm at in the parenthood realm. She is not the free spirit I am and therefor worries/frets about how my younger children 15,9,and 8 are going to make it in the world being raised like a pack of wild cubs. I have the utmost respect for her,(as she does me),genuinely like her and we have simply agreed to disagree,period. We still discuss things but we both know we are probably still going to disagree. It's ok.

Kim
P.S. My daughter,who is the mother of 3 kids under the age of 4 with one due in Oct. hasn't completely decided to unschool/homeschool. I won't agree if she sends them to school but I would certainly respect her decision.


Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
I'd just try to express my understanding that it must be VERY
difficult to be a grandmother and watch your grandchildren being
raised in a way that you really, honestly, think is likely to be
harmful to them. Maybe reassure her that you aren't going to stick
with this if it doesn't seem to be working out.

I think about this - what if my kids end up sending their kids to
high-pressure academically rigorous schools, for example. What if
they medicate them for ADD. What if they get really into pushing
early reading?

And so on....

Guess I'm starting to think more like a grandma now that my kids are
getting into their 20's <G>.

-pam

On Jul 30, 2007, at 8:01 AM, graberamy wrote:

> So, do I just say nothing since she didn't approach me? Or do I say
> something like "I heard about your concerns, if you're really
> interested in learning why we believe the way we do, I'd recommend
> such and such." And what would you recommend?? I mean I've been
> researching for years...is there just one magically article to that
> might help her understand?
>
> Thanks all for the great advice on this topic!!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

This might seem picky, but I see it as crucial to clarity.

Someone wrote "I won't agree if she sends them to school but I would
certainly respect her decision. "

I think saying "I would accept her decision" would make sense, but to
say one would "respect" something one doesn't agree with seems to be
to be using words without thinking, or being solicitous in a way that
could cause more problems down the line.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

graberamy

> That's what I'd do.
> But if she gets right in your face, consider "We're hoping for a
> better relationship with our kids than you had with yours."
>
> <bwg>
>
Oh, I like this, I really like this a lot!! That would be such a dig I
don't even know if I could actually say it! Her youngest son has seen
her maybe 5 times in the last 10 years (he lives in AZ). The above
statement is so TRUE!! I do want a better relationship w/ my children
than she has w/ hers! Oh, the horror stories I could tell about her
and my hubby!

Thank you, thank you...
amy g
in iowa

Chester Crump

Here is what I mean Sandra.
For me,government school is not best for my children. My daughter may feel,with the many circumstances that come along in life that gov. school is the best for her children at that particular time. This could come about after reading/researching the pros and cons of either gov. school or homeschool. I may not agree with her but because I trust her to make the best decision she can make for her children I most certainly will and do respect her.

I think it's kind of like denominations. I may not want to be your denomination but I can still respect your choice to make that denomination yours. I think respect can be given even when you don't agree. It opens the doors wide for change,or not.

Kim

Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
This might seem picky, but I see it as crucial to clarity.

Someone wrote "I won't agree if she sends them to school but I would
certainly respect her decision. "

I think saying "I would accept her decision" would make sense, but to
say one would "respect" something one doesn't agree with seems to be
to be using words without thinking, or being solicitous in a way that
could cause more problems down the line.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cally Brown

Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
> Guess I'm starting to think more like a grandma now that my kids are
> getting into their 20's <G>.
I AM a grandma now - and it IS very hard to see your child making
choices for his children (your grandchildren) that you don't agree with.
I try very hard to support his right to make his own choices, while
still trying to gently remind him that there are other choices
available. It is a very thin rope to balance on with my own son, let
alone with his wife - I'm sure they have had many a moan about me in the
last 5 years!

I think the best thing for both parents and grandparents to remember is,
all of us love those babes and want what's best for them. If we have
different views on what's best, that's all it is - different views on
what's best. Remember that it's all based on love and concern.

But sometimes we grandparents need to be reminded that however much we
love those babes, we are not their parents, and that the decision to do
something a particular way doesn't necessarily mean that our way was
worse: different times, different situations, different choices,
different parents, different children. I know my mother took everything
I did differently as a criticism of her parenting - but it wasn't always
(was sometimes tho <g>).

It is hard being a grandparent - so much love, but no decision making
rights, no control, not even the right to see them. I worry myself sick
at times.

Cally

Kelly Shultz

I too am glad that this topic has come up. Over the last few months
I have been mulling over a possible post, and just haven't gotten
there, but this is opening the door for me. I think part of the
reason that I have hesitated to post is that I still feel unclear
about what my specific issue is, but here goes anyway.

Lately I have just been feeling like we have so many differences
between us and everyone that we know (except our unschooling
friends), and I have been wondering if I (because it's me driving the
unschooling, right) am going to alienate everyone we know because of
our "crazy" choices. Here are some scenarios and background info.

Our oldest is 8.5, and definitely not reading, not even a small list
of words, actually. She recognizes things that she sees, like logos,
etc., but if they are presented in another way, she doesn't recognize
them at all. I've read on this list, I've read Frank Smith, and I
really feel comfortable that she is going to get to it in her own
way. She's always done things kind of slowly and waited until real
mastery was possible before she commits to doing them fully. Because
of that, I trust that she will be there, and do just fine when it
works for her. I also can see how much information she (and my other
two children also) absorb from the world without even needing to
read. They notice everything and are so conscious of the visual
world around them, it is remarkable to me. But, on the reading
front, we are definitely coming up on those situations, either with
relatives, or with non-unschooling friends, or casual acquaintances,
where there is a slightly uncomfortable pause and look when they
realize that our 8.5 yo does not yet know how to read. With the
family and close folks, I feel relatively comfortable explaining the
detail of the situation, our philosophy, etc.; it is those more
casual encounters (with acquaintances at dinner, with the lifeguard
at the pool, etc.) where I need some brief statement that I can make
that keeps me and the situation positive, does not require a detailed
lecture on the whole natural learning philosophy, and is not
uncomfortable for my daughter to hear. Generally, when it seems to
make sense, I say something like "oh yes, homeschooled children who
learn to read naturally at their own pace often do not read until
between 8 and 12 years old."

Several months ago, I realized that two of my oldest friends from
college might be too difficult for me to see and talk to on a regular
basis. I feel very uncomfortable in the presence of their sometimes
negative, heavily directive parenting. Aside from the parentinng
style, they both have boys who are diagnosed with certain currently
common disorders and in numerous types of therapy, but seem to me to
just be maybe a little unique or needing more individual attention,
and the treatment is all to have them fit into a school or preshool
box (sorry, I do not mean to create controversy here, it just seems
to me that I do not know a little boy who is not diagnosed with
something these days, and it is making me skeptical.) One of the
friends and I discussed that our different views on parenting (she
expressed reading concerns; I did not share my views on disorders)
were causing some stress in the relationship, and I told her that if
it was causing too much stress for her, I would understand if she
wanted to drop our friendship. I also tried to gently share that I
was really seeing so many great possible benefits about the learning
and relationship style that we were exploring, that I would love it
if she could see those too. We haven't really talked since that
conversation, and it is kind of eating at me. This conversation was
extremely difficult for me, as I typically avoid controversy and try
to keep to the positive side of things, but it seemed like it had to
happen.

My husband's family is another situation. Almost every single person
is an educator, and with that background, obviously our choice was
different. However, I think most of the folks looked at my husband
and I and said, well, they were both reasonably bright and motivated,
they must have some idea of what they're doing. On the other hand,
my sil is an extremely dictatorial parent, barking out orders to her
11 and 9 year olds, about everything from what they need to do next,
to what they can and can't eat, etc. It is so painful for me to
observe, and I could almost cry for the lost potential of her
children, especially her son, who receives extremely negative
treatment. Recently they visited and stayed with us for several
days, along with my mil, her older daughter and boyfriend, and their
other children. We joined some other relatives for a dinner at our
botanic garden, and while we were walking around afterward, my
husband overheard our sil commenting to his cousin that she told my
3yo that he "couldn't do such and such with Auntie Sarah around." My
husband did not hear the entire conversation, but thought it referred
to a time where my son might have been jumping on piled up air
mattresses while she was in the room reading, and he inferred that
she thought he needed someone to tell him a strong "NO". I can tell
that it seems strange to others in their family that I spend so much
time talking, acknowledging emotions and negotiating with all of our
children, but probably mostly with the 3yo. This sil has in the past
also asked kind of point blank questions of my daughter about what
she's been learning. This sil suggested during a car ride with her
and my mil, that our daughters should come to visit them alone for a
week next summer. I could barely say anything, because I felt so
worried for them that any such visit might include probing of their
knowledge base, lessons in how to listen and follow orders, and also
how to be responsible for cleaning up your own messes. On the other
hand, I felt like I would seem like an ogre of a mother to deprive
them of the opportunity to have a week of fun and excitement with
their cousins.

I also fear that if it becomes widespread knowledge among his other
relatives that our oldest is not yet reading, some sort of pressure
will start. When we first mentioned that our daughter might not read
until 8 or so, dh's mother said "well I certainly hope it doesn't go
that far". She seemed okay at 5, 6, 7, but with each year, I am sure
it will become more of a concern.

Aside from the reading and the toddler negotiating, there is always
the background hum of some level of guilt that our home can be very
messy (and the kids are not required to pick things up, which I can
tell creates some discomfort, even with our closest friends), and I
often feel like I have to make some explanatory comment to whomever
might be coming to our door, whether they be our building engineer, a
neighbor in need of something, or friends. I don't know why I can't
get over the mentality of guilt - I have so many valid arguments
against it, but try as I might, it does crop up. We did do major
cleanup for our relatives, but with so many people living there, it
was messy, and I still didn't go around cleaning everything every
minute. My sil somehow made a comment about how she hates clutter,
and I wondered if that was somehow directed at me, because our house
is cluttery by most people's standards. Perhaps though, I might have
been too sensitive.

Oh yes, our 3yo also can frequently be found running around in our
home naked, and that definitely puts some people off, so I'm feeling
like it's created some awkwardness, despite the fact that I can say
that it's easier for him while he's learning to use the bathroom
regularly.

Last, but not least, and I think that Jacki articulated this so well
in her draft response to the op, our children are not perfect, and
their behavior is not always what others want to see. They can be
truly charming at times, but when they are home and in their comfort
zone, they can also be very emotional, expressive and intense. I
know that there are people who witness this and think that there
might be something wrong with it, and we need to get them under
control. As we have progressed in our journey, I have learned to see
the value of not trying to shut down or "fix" their emotions,
reactions and behaviors, but rather to try to understand and help
them understand what they are experiencing, and to let them be
genuine, not compliant and acceptable to others.

Okay, so now I've got old friends, family and casual acquaintances
all sending out subtle or not completely subtle messages that
something seems a bit off about this, and I'm not feeling so great
about what they're doing that it's making me feel a little bit stiff
in my relationships, and maybe even a little prepared to be
defensive, which is not where I'd like to be.

It might help if we were more closely connected with our local
homeschool community, but the get-togethers tend to be very large,
and my daughters do not enjoy going to huge open gym activities.
They prefer one-on-one activities, and the few friends that they have
decided are the easiest and best to get together with are several
schooled children, fortunately with very nice and understanding
mothers, who live close by and can be played with more regularly. We
also live a little further from the bigger cluster of our homeschool
group's families. So the two friends are great, but we're definitely
pursuing our own activities much of the time. I love this, on the
one hand, because it is great to do what we want, and I feel like we
are connecting so much more with the kids interests, but given the
above, I wonder if my ability to be confident with doubtful parties
could be improved more by day to day reinforcement that unschooling
is great.

There are so many positives about our unschooling experience that I
could go on and on with an equally long email (and then you'd kick me
off the list), but I think I need to get this concern out of the way
so that I can focus on those and be confident and smooth with the
others that might not feel that way.

Any thoughts very much appreciated,

Kelly

Sandra Dodd

-=-Generally, when it seems to
make sense, I say something like "oh yes, homeschooled children who
learn to read naturally at their own pace often do not read until
between 8 and 12 years old."-=-

Very many of the children who "learn to read" at school's pace aren't
really reading at 8 and 12. If they all were, why would there be any
such thing as "remedial reading" or "reading specialists"?

There is a gigantic industry built around pretending obvious
realities aren't real. There is a huge business thriving in treating
normal children as if they're defective robots.

-=-There are so many positives about our unschooling experience that I
could go on and on with an equally long email (and then you'd kick me
off the list)-=-

How about five or twelve e-mails about positive experiences in
various areas?

What about editing some of them as letters to your relatives?

-=-I wonder if my ability to be confident with doubtful parties
could be improved more by day to day reinforcement that unschooling
is great.-=-

That's one of the best uses you could make of this list and the web
pages that have grown out of such discussions, though.

-=-Generally, when it seems to
make sense, I say something like "oh yes, homeschooled children who
learn to read naturally at their own pace often do not read until
between 8 and 12 years old."-=-

You might ask them if they want the link to read more about it.
http://sandradodd.com/reading
They'll probably say no, but still they'll have reason to shut up for
a while.

-=-On the other hand,
my sil is an extremely dictatorial parent, barking out orders to her
11 and 9 year olds, about everything from what they need to do next,
to what they can and can't eat, etc. It is so painful for me to
observe, and I could almost cry for the lost potential of her
children, especially her son, who receives extremely negative
treatment. -=-

This was very hard for me, and I did end up extricating myself
gradually (sometimes less gradually than other times, but that was
always determined by the pain being inflicted on the other end) from
families like that.

At first it seemed to me, when my kids were little, that it was
enough for me not to yell or hit, but it soon became apparent that I
didn't want them to have to witness yelling or hitting either. And
that changed things.

I was an older parent, and was in my 30's when kids were born, so it
might have been easier for me than for younger moms to choose my kids
over my same-age peers.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jenstarc4

.
>
> Our oldest is 8.5, and definitely not reading, not even a small
list
> of words, actually.

But, on the reading
> front, we are definitely coming up on those situations, either
with
> relatives, or with non-unschooling friends, or casual
acquaintances,
> where there is a slightly uncomfortable pause and look when they
> realize that our 8.5 yo does not yet know how to read. With the
> family and close folks, I feel relatively comfortable explaining
the
> detail of the situation, our philosophy, etc.; it is those more
> casual encounters (with acquaintances at dinner, with the
lifeguard
> at the pool, etc.) where I need some brief statement

What helped us at our house was reading lots and lots of books,
either me reading them aloud or listening to them on cd or tape. My
daughter absorbed all those great stories and picked up on grammar
and vocabulary through it.

Book for book, she had absorbed more than most kids her age that were
in school. When she started reading on her own, (when was that a
year ago?) can't remember, anyway late for school standards because
she is 13 now, it didn't seem to matter that she hadn't been reading
all those previous years. She was doing other more important to her
things. She has yet to read a novel, she prefers manga, but I'm
about to buy the new HP book, one for each of us and we are going to
race to the end of it. It will be her first novel and she reads
faster than me.

You don't need to offer any explanation to anyone like the
lifegaurd. It is none of their business and there are plenty of kids
in school that don't know how to read either. Perhaps say what her
favorite book is and leave it at that and let them assume that she is
reading it on her own.

> Several months ago, I realized that two of my oldest friends from
> college might be too difficult for me to see and talk to on a
regular
> basis. I feel very uncomfortable in the presence of their
sometimes
> negative, heavily directive parenting.

One of the
> friends and I discussed that our different views on parenting (she
> expressed reading concerns; I did not share my views on disorders)
> were causing some stress in the relationship, and I told her that
if
> it was causing too much stress for her, I would understand if she
> wanted to drop our friendship.
We haven't really talked since that
> conversation, and it is kind of eating at me. This conversation
was
> extremely difficult for me, as I typically avoid controversy and
try
> to keep to the positive side of things, but it seemed like it had
to
> happen.

I would let it go. I tried for a number of years to help a woman
with her autistic son to give her resources that the schools weren't
giving her and the ones they were, were clearly not helping her. She
politely took them and did nothing. However, the last I heard she
had taken her child out of the school system to homeschool, so maybe
something I said or gave her helped after all. I don't know, I don't
have much contact with her anymore.

I have another friend that I really enjoy, for other reasons, that is
heavily attatched to the labels too. I just have to let it go,
because she doesn't hear what I tell her. You can't make someone see
something they aren't ready to see or hear. We just talk about other
things, and if the conversation comes up, I give my input.


This sil suggested during a car ride with her
> and my mil, that our daughters should come to visit them alone for
a
> week next summer. I could barely say anything, because I felt so
> worried for them that any such visit might include probing of
their
> knowledge base, lessons in how to listen and follow orders, and
also
> how to be responsible for cleaning up your own messes. On the
other
> hand, I felt like I would seem like an ogre of a mother to deprive
> them of the opportunity to have a week of fun and excitement with
> their cousins.

In these situations you have to weigh the pros and cons. Part of
getting along in the world is accepting people that are different and
still be able to acknowledge what they do have to offer. Our kids
are no exception to this. When my kids are visitors in someone
else's home like an aunt, they should follow house rules, wether they
like it or not. They don't have to tolerate abuse, like yelling, but
they can address it through me if they don't feel comfortable doing
it directly to their aunt.(we don't really have aunts like this)

The pros are having a relationship with their cousins. If you are
able to go with them, I would, to run interference when things get
ugly so your kids can enjoy their time.

>
> I also fear that if it becomes widespread knowledge among his
other
> relatives that our oldest is not yet reading, some sort of
pressure
> will start. When we first mentioned that our daughter might not
read
> until 8 or so, dh's mother said "well I certainly hope it doesn't
go
> that far". She seemed okay at 5, 6, 7, but with each year, I am
sure
> it will become more of a concern.

I would stop bringing it up and keep enjoying books together. Put
the focus on the cool things that your kids ARE doing.

>
> Aside from the reading and the toddler negotiating, there is
always
> the background hum of some level of guilt that our home can be
very
> messy (and the kids are not required to pick things up, which I
can
> tell creates some discomfort, even with our closest friends),

Not being required to pick up doesn't mean that you can't ask for
help picking stuff up for a visitor. I ask my kids for help all the
time and most of the time they willingly help. Set a timer and say
10 min pickup. It's amazing how much can be picked up in that amount
of time. When they don't want to help for whatever reason, I ask
that they don't get anything more out right now and give me 15 solid
uninterrupted minutes for me to do it myself.

Learn quick decluttering tricks so that it doesn't cause you stress
and guilt about having a house that isn't the tidiest.

> Oh yes, our 3yo also can frequently be found running around in our
> home naked, and that definitely puts some people off, so I'm
feeling
> like it's created some awkwardness, despite the fact that I can
say
> that it's easier for him while he's learning to use the bathroom
> regularly.

Okay, I can say that I completely understand this issue. However,
there will be guests that aren't comfortable with the nudity. Have
him put on a long t-shirt that covers it all up and still keeps him
free down there. I've just asked my daughter to put on a dress, or a
pair of undies, a robe, or sometimes a swimsuit, and sometimes she
finds her own solution of wrapping up in a blanket.

As we have progressed in our journey, I have learned to see
> the value of not trying to shut down or "fix" their emotions,
> reactions and behaviors, but rather to try to understand and help
> them understand what they are experiencing, and to let them be
> genuine, not compliant and acceptable to others.

This is sooo important!

harmony

> Aside from the reading and the toddler negotiating, there is
always
> the background hum of some level of guilt that our home can be
very
> messy (and the kids are not required to pick things up, which I
can
> tell creates some discomfort, even with our closest friends),


Just out of curiosity, what is the reasoning behind not making them clean up their things?

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "harmony" <harmony@...> wrote:
>
>
> Just out of curiosity, what is the reasoning behind not making
them clean up their things?
>



It is not that they *can not* pick up their things but why do we
need to *make* them. When you are FORCED to do something you do not
like it or enjoy it or want to continue it unless you are forced.
When given the choice of how and when to pick up then it becomes
part of who you are.

My mother hates dishes inthe sink and as soon as you eat you do
dishes. I let me dishes sit in the sink till I and ready to do them
sometimes waiting days. When I read about how *everything* is a
choice and it is all in the attitude I suddenly realized that I do
not mind doing the dishes I just do not want to HAVE to do them
right after I eat.

I stopped making my kids pick up toys as well as chores and the
little ones will help me out if they want and then do not if they do
not I must say this also applies to my husband- I do not make him or
even (well rarely) ask him to do stuff- If he wants to help he does
and if not he does not.

The girls 4 and 2 will start cleaning spontaneously when they are
ready- my son who is 13 will wait until dad says clean your roon and
he was raised with chores and *making* you clean up your stuff.
Recently dad is letting go of the control and son will just clean
up.

Thisnk of something your parents made you do that you hated and do
you like it now?

JulieH