thinking and choices and stuff
[email protected]
My thought is that too many people accept the mainstream ideas withOUT
thinking at all. Then they come to us wondering why we think
differently about these things. And they assume it's all "black and
white" or completely exclusive. They don't understand that they have
options.
The biggest eye-opener for me was when my sisters-in-inlaw ambushed me
and Ben several years ago about unschooling. It happens every day on
these lists, but coming from family all at once was something else.
They had all this "research" to throw at us. NONE of it valid in an
unschooling/mindful home.
Food
Gaming
Reading
TV
Algebra
Chores
Sleep/Bedtimes
Computer
Limits and more limits.
"Would you allow them to have cake and ice cream for breakfast?"
"Do you allow them to play video games ALL DAY?"
"Don't they have to read 30 minutes each day?"
"You allow them to watch anything they want on tv? Aren't you worried
they will watch horror and porn?"
"What about math? No Algebra???"
"But if you don't make them do chores, they'll treat you like a maid
and NEVER do ANYTHING!"
"They NEED their rest! If they can stay up as late as they want, when
will they sleep?"
"No parental controls on the TV or computer? What about child
molesters?"
They just couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that my children
simply have CHOICES.
Yes, they may have cake and ice cream for breakfast, but they CHOOSE to
make eggs and chicken and a bagel.
Yes, they can play games all day, but they CHOOSE to jump on the
trampoline and swim and read and cook and nap.
Yes, they can watch whatever they want on TV, but they CHOOSE to watch
SpongeBob and That 70s show and Good Eats!
Yes, they have no chores, but they CHOOSE to clean and help with *many*
things around the house---out of love and thoughtfulness and kindness.
Yes, they have no bedtimes, so they sleep when they are tired and get
up when they are rested---remember they don't *have* to be up at 6:00am
for the bus!
Now, I have been where they are. I was a traditional, conventional
parent (as were our own parents). But I changed. I tried something new.
I believe that I made the best choice. Because, I believed, there WAS a
choice to be made.
The biggest thing that pisses me off is that they are coming at this
from ONE point of view. They know no other. They've done NO research.
They've never even questioned *why* they are doing what they're doing.
They simply *DO*. No questions. No explanations. That's just the way it
is.
*I*, on the other hand, have *been* where they are. I was raised in a
very similar manner (and Ben was raised WITH them in the SAME manner).
I have been to school. I have sent my child to school. I have
substitute taught in school. I have taken my child out of school. And I
have decided to unschool. I have BEEN on all sides of the fence, as
well as ON it; and I have made the best possible choice that *I* can
see to make.
THEY, on the other hand, are still on the same side of the fence (but
are quickly making a brick wall out of that rail fence so that their
kids can't see us on the FUN side!), with no knowledge of the other
possibiilities. They are uninformed and misinformed. HOW can they have
an intelligent conversation on any of these issues? Well, they *can't*!
No one chooses to unschool without questioning. That's the nature of
the beast. Parents who aren't going to question things---every
thing---are not going to unschool. It just won't happen. The radical
unschoolers I know are passionate about questioning and learning more.
They don't let things rest. They keep looking and asking and thinking
about things. They're voracious learners themselves, so they are
excellent models for their children.
Those who choose to "go with the flow" and who accept whatever they are
told and who refrain from thinking too much will be modeling for their
children too.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
thinking at all. Then they come to us wondering why we think
differently about these things. And they assume it's all "black and
white" or completely exclusive. They don't understand that they have
options.
The biggest eye-opener for me was when my sisters-in-inlaw ambushed me
and Ben several years ago about unschooling. It happens every day on
these lists, but coming from family all at once was something else.
They had all this "research" to throw at us. NONE of it valid in an
unschooling/mindful home.
Food
Gaming
Reading
TV
Algebra
Chores
Sleep/Bedtimes
Computer
Limits and more limits.
"Would you allow them to have cake and ice cream for breakfast?"
"Do you allow them to play video games ALL DAY?"
"Don't they have to read 30 minutes each day?"
"You allow them to watch anything they want on tv? Aren't you worried
they will watch horror and porn?"
"What about math? No Algebra???"
"But if you don't make them do chores, they'll treat you like a maid
and NEVER do ANYTHING!"
"They NEED their rest! If they can stay up as late as they want, when
will they sleep?"
"No parental controls on the TV or computer? What about child
molesters?"
They just couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that my children
simply have CHOICES.
Yes, they may have cake and ice cream for breakfast, but they CHOOSE to
make eggs and chicken and a bagel.
Yes, they can play games all day, but they CHOOSE to jump on the
trampoline and swim and read and cook and nap.
Yes, they can watch whatever they want on TV, but they CHOOSE to watch
SpongeBob and That 70s show and Good Eats!
Yes, they have no chores, but they CHOOSE to clean and help with *many*
things around the house---out of love and thoughtfulness and kindness.
Yes, they have no bedtimes, so they sleep when they are tired and get
up when they are rested---remember they don't *have* to be up at 6:00am
for the bus!
Now, I have been where they are. I was a traditional, conventional
parent (as were our own parents). But I changed. I tried something new.
I believe that I made the best choice. Because, I believed, there WAS a
choice to be made.
The biggest thing that pisses me off is that they are coming at this
from ONE point of view. They know no other. They've done NO research.
They've never even questioned *why* they are doing what they're doing.
They simply *DO*. No questions. No explanations. That's just the way it
is.
*I*, on the other hand, have *been* where they are. I was raised in a
very similar manner (and Ben was raised WITH them in the SAME manner).
I have been to school. I have sent my child to school. I have
substitute taught in school. I have taken my child out of school. And I
have decided to unschool. I have BEEN on all sides of the fence, as
well as ON it; and I have made the best possible choice that *I* can
see to make.
THEY, on the other hand, are still on the same side of the fence (but
are quickly making a brick wall out of that rail fence so that their
kids can't see us on the FUN side!), with no knowledge of the other
possibiilities. They are uninformed and misinformed. HOW can they have
an intelligent conversation on any of these issues? Well, they *can't*!
No one chooses to unschool without questioning. That's the nature of
the beast. Parents who aren't going to question things---every
thing---are not going to unschool. It just won't happen. The radical
unschoolers I know are passionate about questioning and learning more.
They don't let things rest. They keep looking and asking and thinking
about things. They're voracious learners themselves, so they are
excellent models for their children.
Those who choose to "go with the flow" and who accept whatever they are
told and who refrain from thinking too much will be modeling for their
children too.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Sandra Dodd
I just love when Kelli goes on a rant. <g>
-=-The biggest thing that pisses me off is that they are coming at this
from ONE point of view. They know no other. They've done NO research.
They've never even questioned *why* they are doing what they're doing.
They simply *DO*. No questions. -=-
RIGHT.
Those who only know what they know are disadvantaged in a discussion
with someone who knows all that AND another way.
People will talk to me about unschooling as if I'm from another
planet, instead of being a person who went to school and then taught
in a public school. ***HELLO!!!**** I know ALL those pro-school
arguments. No one has ever, ever come up with a pro-school argument
I had never heard.
I liked this list of questions, and I want to play with possible
responses (which anyone here is free to use liberally, or reject for
being abominal, either way):
"Would you allow them to have cake and ice cream for breakfast?"
Yes, but I wouldn't MAKE them eat cake and ice cream
for breakfast.
"Do you allow them to play video games ALL DAY?"
".... and all night too." (a Shakespearean-style
answer)
or
"yes, but I wouldn't MAKE them play ever day, or
all day."
"Don't they have to read 30 minutes each day?"
Is that a law now?
Do you read 30 minutes each day?
Who makes you?
I read 30 minutes each day, but if someone tried to make me, I
might resist.
"You allow them to watch anything they want on tv? Aren't you worried
they will watch horror and porn?"
Do you watch horror and porn?
I don't *make* them watch horror and porn.
"What about math? No Algebra???"
Well I do have answers to this. Most people who ask about
algebra don't know what it is, outside of being a school math
course. That one's pretty easy, but here are some stories... http://
sandradodd.com/timestables
"But if you don't make them do chores, they'll treat you like a maid
and NEVER do ANYTHING!"
That hasn't been my experience.
"They NEED their rest! If they can stay up as late as they want, when
will they sleep?"
Marty has stayed up all night ONCE. Kirby has, but only when
he's slept all the following day. They sleep lots. Probably the
same people who want to rag about bedtime enforcement would also
complain if I didn't wake them up after eight hours, saying "Eight
hours is enough," and more is sloth or whatever.
"No parental controls on the TV or computer? What about child
molesters?"
I LOVE THIS ONE!!!!!
Kids whose parents make them go out and play are in way more danger
than those who are sitting in a chair, in the house, at a computer.
What kind of parents would create a home environment which would make
secretly meeting a stranger seem desireable? (Lots of them,
unfortunately, but I'm not one of them.)
'
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-The biggest thing that pisses me off is that they are coming at this
from ONE point of view. They know no other. They've done NO research.
They've never even questioned *why* they are doing what they're doing.
They simply *DO*. No questions. -=-
RIGHT.
Those who only know what they know are disadvantaged in a discussion
with someone who knows all that AND another way.
People will talk to me about unschooling as if I'm from another
planet, instead of being a person who went to school and then taught
in a public school. ***HELLO!!!**** I know ALL those pro-school
arguments. No one has ever, ever come up with a pro-school argument
I had never heard.
I liked this list of questions, and I want to play with possible
responses (which anyone here is free to use liberally, or reject for
being abominal, either way):
"Would you allow them to have cake and ice cream for breakfast?"
Yes, but I wouldn't MAKE them eat cake and ice cream
for breakfast.
"Do you allow them to play video games ALL DAY?"
".... and all night too." (a Shakespearean-style
answer)
or
"yes, but I wouldn't MAKE them play ever day, or
all day."
"Don't they have to read 30 minutes each day?"
Is that a law now?
Do you read 30 minutes each day?
Who makes you?
I read 30 minutes each day, but if someone tried to make me, I
might resist.
"You allow them to watch anything they want on tv? Aren't you worried
they will watch horror and porn?"
Do you watch horror and porn?
I don't *make* them watch horror and porn.
"What about math? No Algebra???"
Well I do have answers to this. Most people who ask about
algebra don't know what it is, outside of being a school math
course. That one's pretty easy, but here are some stories... http://
sandradodd.com/timestables
"But if you don't make them do chores, they'll treat you like a maid
and NEVER do ANYTHING!"
That hasn't been my experience.
"They NEED their rest! If they can stay up as late as they want, when
will they sleep?"
Marty has stayed up all night ONCE. Kirby has, but only when
he's slept all the following day. They sleep lots. Probably the
same people who want to rag about bedtime enforcement would also
complain if I didn't wake them up after eight hours, saying "Eight
hours is enough," and more is sloth or whatever.
"No parental controls on the TV or computer? What about child
molesters?"
I LOVE THIS ONE!!!!!
Kids whose parents make them go out and play are in way more danger
than those who are sitting in a chair, in the house, at a computer.
What kind of parents would create a home environment which would make
secretly meeting a stranger seem desireable? (Lots of them,
unfortunately, but I'm not one of them.)
'
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
I love quizzes.
Would I allow my 11 year old home educated son to have cake and ice
cream for breakfast?
Yes. He can have whatever he likes. Whatever he likes is not, as it
happens, cake and ice cream.
Do I allow him to play video games ALL DAY?
Yes. And all night if he wants to. Which he sometimes does.
Doesn't he have to read 30 minutes each day?
No. But I'm sure he does read 30 minutes each day, at least. Just not
books.
Do I allow him to watch anything he wants on tv?
Yes. Even stuff I don't like. I always tell him why I don't like it.
I'm free to do that. The same as I do with my wife, who also watches
anything she wants on TV. My wife and my son will usually tell me why
they do like the stuff I don't like. I've learned a lot. Currently,
my son is building a case for The Simpsons.
Am I worried he'll watch horror and porn?
I'm alert to the possibility, but "worried" is not how I would
describe it. My son knows what porn is. I was amazed when I
discovered that. He's never seen any but he knows what it is. It led
to a most enlightening conversation. My son has an appreciation of
the world at large I would have envied when I was his age.
What about math?
My son has an online interactive maths program he uses when he feels
like it. Usually he spends about an hour a week on that and fits it
into visits to gamespot.com (the main reason he uses the PC these
days).
No Algebra???
He'll get to it at some stage of his maths program. I rarely use
algebra in real life, so I don't see it as a major issue. I can
always run him through it at the time if necessary. I'm more
interested in him knowing how long division works (without using a
calculator) - something I understand is no longer taught in many
schools.
"But if you don't make them do chores, they'll treat you like a maid
and NEVER do ANYTHING!"
He's too busy to treat me like a maid. Besides which, my own solution
to the chores problem is to earn enough money to hire a maid to do
all that stuff anyway. More fun for everyone. I'm a great believer in
everybody spending their valuable time on things that make the best
use of their talents and not wasting it on things a trained monkey
could do.
"They NEED their rest! If they can stay up as late as they want, when
will they sleep?"
My son gets all the sleep he needs and wakes up when he wakes up, and
often that means he sleeps in long after everyone else is up and
about. It's one of the joys of our lifestyle that he's free to do
that.
"No parental controls on the TV or computer?"
None whatsoever.
"What about child molesters?"
What about them?
As I think I've said before, it seems to me there are a lot of people
wishing and hoping that the unschooling lifestyle couldn't possibly
be better than their own conventional lifestyles, and they'll use all
sorts of myths and nonsense to try to make it so.
Bob
Would I allow my 11 year old home educated son to have cake and ice
cream for breakfast?
Yes. He can have whatever he likes. Whatever he likes is not, as it
happens, cake and ice cream.
Do I allow him to play video games ALL DAY?
Yes. And all night if he wants to. Which he sometimes does.
Doesn't he have to read 30 minutes each day?
No. But I'm sure he does read 30 minutes each day, at least. Just not
books.
Do I allow him to watch anything he wants on tv?
Yes. Even stuff I don't like. I always tell him why I don't like it.
I'm free to do that. The same as I do with my wife, who also watches
anything she wants on TV. My wife and my son will usually tell me why
they do like the stuff I don't like. I've learned a lot. Currently,
my son is building a case for The Simpsons.
Am I worried he'll watch horror and porn?
I'm alert to the possibility, but "worried" is not how I would
describe it. My son knows what porn is. I was amazed when I
discovered that. He's never seen any but he knows what it is. It led
to a most enlightening conversation. My son has an appreciation of
the world at large I would have envied when I was his age.
What about math?
My son has an online interactive maths program he uses when he feels
like it. Usually he spends about an hour a week on that and fits it
into visits to gamespot.com (the main reason he uses the PC these
days).
No Algebra???
He'll get to it at some stage of his maths program. I rarely use
algebra in real life, so I don't see it as a major issue. I can
always run him through it at the time if necessary. I'm more
interested in him knowing how long division works (without using a
calculator) - something I understand is no longer taught in many
schools.
"But if you don't make them do chores, they'll treat you like a maid
and NEVER do ANYTHING!"
He's too busy to treat me like a maid. Besides which, my own solution
to the chores problem is to earn enough money to hire a maid to do
all that stuff anyway. More fun for everyone. I'm a great believer in
everybody spending their valuable time on things that make the best
use of their talents and not wasting it on things a trained monkey
could do.
"They NEED their rest! If they can stay up as late as they want, when
will they sleep?"
My son gets all the sleep he needs and wakes up when he wakes up, and
often that means he sleeps in long after everyone else is up and
about. It's one of the joys of our lifestyle that he's free to do
that.
"No parental controls on the TV or computer?"
None whatsoever.
"What about child molesters?"
What about them?
As I think I've said before, it seems to me there are a lot of people
wishing and hoping that the unschooling lifestyle couldn't possibly
be better than their own conventional lifestyles, and they'll use all
sorts of myths and nonsense to try to make it so.
Bob
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
>
>
> My thought is that too many people accept the mainstream ideas
withOUT
> thinking at all. Then they come to us wondering why we think
> differently about these things. And they assume it's all "black and
> white" or completely exclusive. They don't understand that they
have
> options.
>
> The biggest eye-opener for me was when my sisters-in-inlaw ambushed
me
> and Ben several years ago about unschooling. It happens every day
on
> these lists, but coming from family all at once was something else.
>
> They had all this "research" to throw at us. NONE of it valid in an
> unschooling/mindful home.
>
> Food
> Gaming
> Reading
> TV
> Algebra
> Chores
> Sleep/Bedtimes
> Computer
>
> Limits and more limits.
>
> "Would you allow them to have cake and ice cream for breakfast?"
> "Do you allow them to play video games ALL DAY?"
> "Don't they have to read 30 minutes each day?"
> "You allow them to watch anything they want on tv? Aren't you
worried
> they will watch horror and porn?"
> "What about math? No Algebra???"
> "But if you don't make them do chores, they'll treat you like a
maid
> and NEVER do ANYTHING!"
> "They NEED their rest! If they can stay up as late as they want,
when
> will they sleep?"
> "No parental controls on the TV or computer? What about child
> molesters?"
>
> They just couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that my
children
> simply have CHOICES.
>
> Yes, they may have cake and ice cream for breakfast, but they
CHOOSE to
> make eggs and chicken and a bagel.
>
> Yes, they can play games all day, but they CHOOSE to jump on the
> trampoline and swim and read and cook and nap.
>
> Yes, they can watch whatever they want on TV, but they CHOOSE to
watch
> SpongeBob and That 70s show and Good Eats!
>
> Yes, they have no chores, but they CHOOSE to clean and help with
*many*
> things around the house---out of love and thoughtfulness and
kindness.
>
> Yes, they have no bedtimes, so they sleep when they are tired and
get
> up when they are rested---remember they don't *have* to be up at
6:00am
> for the bus!
>
>
>
> Now, I have been where they are. I was a traditional, conventional
> parent (as were our own parents). But I changed. I tried something
new.
> I believe that I made the best choice. Because, I believed, there
WAS a
> choice to be made.
>
> The biggest thing that pisses me off is that they are coming at
this
> from ONE point of view. They know no other. They've done NO
research.
> They've never even questioned *why* they are doing what they're
doing.
> They simply *DO*. No questions. No explanations. That's just the
way it
> is.
>
> *I*, on the other hand, have *been* where they are. I was raised in
a
> very similar manner (and Ben was raised WITH them in the SAME
manner).
> I have been to school. I have sent my child to school. I have
> substitute taught in school. I have taken my child out of school.
And I
> have decided to unschool. I have BEEN on all sides of the fence, as
> well as ON it; and I have made the best possible choice that *I*
can
> see to make.
>
> THEY, on the other hand, are still on the same side of the fence
(but
> are quickly making a brick wall out of that rail fence so that
their
> kids can't see us on the FUN side!), with no knowledge of the other
> possibiilities. They are uninformed and misinformed. HOW can they
have
> an intelligent conversation on any of these issues? Well, they
*can't*!
>
> No one chooses to unschool without questioning. That's the nature
of
> the beast. Parents who aren't going to question things---every
> thing---are not going to unschool. It just won't happen. The
radical
> unschoolers I know are passionate about questioning and learning
more.
> They don't let things rest. They keep looking and asking and
thinking
> about things. They're voracious learners themselves, so they are
> excellent models for their children.
>
> Those who choose to "go with the flow" and who accept whatever they
are
> told and who refrain from thinking too much will be modeling for
their
> children too.
>
>
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
free
> from AOL at AOL.com.
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Currently,
my son is building a case for The Simpsons. -=-
On behalf of your son, though this only barely touches it,
http://sandradodd.com/strew/simpsons
There are some new things on that page too, which I forgot to
announce...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
my son is building a case for The Simpsons. -=-
On behalf of your son, though this only barely touches it,
http://sandradodd.com/strew/simpsons
There are some new things on that page too, which I forgot to
announce...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
>>Currently,I was just breezing through emails and smiling listening to the entire rest
>>my son is building a case for The Simpsons. <<
of my family laughing their heads off in the other room. It made me laugh
not even knowing what they were laughing at.
You guessed it...The Simpsons.
Jacki
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
person to say that my son has gained an enormous amount of knowledge
about the real world from watching cartoons, but ... Anyway, I'll
pass that page on to him to look at - he'll find it very interesting
and I'm sure it'll give him some good ideas. You never know, he might
convince me one day. :D
I was interested to see in the Powers of Ten video where Springfield
was located geographically, but I couldn't figure out if it was
supposed to be Minnesota of Wisconsin. That led to me finding this
article:
Town decides the Simpsons don't live in Minnesota
http://www.twincities.com/ci_6015737?
source=most_emailed&nclick_check=1
[all one link]
Thanks again.
Bob
>Thanks, I see your point about cultural literacy and I'd be the first
> -=-Currently,
> my son is building a case for The Simpsons. -=-
>
> On behalf of your son, though this only barely touches it,
> http://sandradodd.com/strew/simpsons
>
> There are some new things on that page too, which I forgot to
> announce...
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
person to say that my son has gained an enormous amount of knowledge
about the real world from watching cartoons, but ... Anyway, I'll
pass that page on to him to look at - he'll find it very interesting
and I'm sure it'll give him some good ideas. You never know, he might
convince me one day. :D
I was interested to see in the Powers of Ten video where Springfield
was located geographically, but I couldn't figure out if it was
supposed to be Minnesota of Wisconsin. That led to me finding this
article:
Town decides the Simpsons don't live in Minnesota
http://www.twincities.com/ci_6015737?
source=most_emailed&nclick_check=1
[all one link]
Thanks again.
Bob
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "Gold Standard" <jacki@...>
wrote:
when passing by. Then my son will usually say something like, "See,
you DO think it's funny!" No, I think some of the jokes in it are
funny. But, then, he doesn't see why I think Seinfeld is funny.
I'm really pleased that my son feels comfortable and confident about
defending his right to like what he likes anyway. I'm all for that.
Bob
wrote:
>entire rest
>
> >>Currently,
> >>my son is building a case for The Simpsons. <<
>
> I was just breezing through emails and smiling listening to the
> of my family laughing their heads off in the other room. It made melaugh
> not even knowing what they were laughing at.Yes, well, I have been known to laugh at The Simpsons occasionally
>
> You guessed it...The Simpsons.
>
> Jacki
>
when passing by. Then my son will usually say something like, "See,
you DO think it's funny!" No, I think some of the jokes in it are
funny. But, then, he doesn't see why I think Seinfeld is funny.
I'm really pleased that my son feels comfortable and confident about
defending his right to like what he likes anyway. I'm all for that.
Bob