re: balancing work and unschooling
Kathleen Whitfield
> ********Who else out there is self employed in doing what theylove
> whilstI also work. I write for a variety of clients, edit a magazine for a
> unschooling their kids? And how does it work for you with time
> management as well as if you feel any guilt about time you spend on
> your business? Those are the people I need to hear from as we are
> in the same boat!***********
nonprofit and do rather time-consuming volunteer work for that same
nonprofit.
It's just what I do. I also talk to the kids *a lot,* take them all sorts of
places, read them all kinds of things, help them find things they'd like to
read, help them find movies they'd like to watch, supervise them while
they're swimming (or swim with them). I don't feel guilty for the time I
spend on my business or my volunteer work because their needs are met.
Also, frequently, my for-pay and volunteer work has advantages for them.
They have friends they've met through my volunteer work, and some of my work
pays rather well. So, when I have a lucrative assignment, the older ones
know it means good things for them. The younger ones don't understand -- but
as a business owner, I have a lot of flexibility. My older children are
interested in my work (both for-pay and volunteer), and they hear about what
I'm doing and ask questions about it.
I also do a lot of my work before they wake up or once they're asleep (right
now, it's mostly before they wake up, since they're on a late-to-bed,
late-to-rise schedule right now. I do work while they're awake, but in my
family it's just like housework -- I can stop and start as needed.
I don't do a lot of things that some people consider mandatory. I don't do
full makeup every morning or blow-dry or straighten or curl my hair. My
house isn't immaculate. I don't cook fancy meals.
I also am pretty passionate about being with my kids, and that's more
important to me than my work -- even though I'm passionate about that, too.
Kathleen
in Riverside
Tia Graham
I've been thinking some about the threads this week regarding
housekeeping and meal provision and unschooling. I understand the
sentiment: lower the "standard" a bit, be flexible on what is truly
"need" and whose it is, give moms a break, etc. I guess it's meant to
make us all feel better when we can't give the supposed unschooling
lifestyle our full attention, keep the house clean, the laundry done,
and nutritious meals on the table 3x a day all at once.
I think why it nags me is because this idea, while maybe meaning more
grace and relaxation for some, also promotes an idea that a natural,
"unschooled" approach to education has to mean a dishelved home and
convenience foods served on paper plates. This scenario is EXACTLY why
my husband was at first resistant to unschooling and also many critics
in our friend/family circle hesitate. It's taken living it out to show
dh first, and then the ripples widened to others, that an unschooled
environment is possible AND my home can be clean/declutttered AND we can
eat healthy, scratch meals 3x a day, 7 days a week.
The reason for that is that eating and cleaning are a part of our life
and natural rhythm every bit as much as learning is. We live clean. We
live healthy. We learn. One reason we gave up teacher's manuals and
canned curriculum is because I was pressured to do what it said rather
than get dinner on the table or wash a load of clothes. Unschooling
/hel/ps/ /us be cleaner and eat better because it's freedom...not the
other way around.
Anyway, these were my thoughts today and I wondered if anyone else
shares them. We are more physically fit, more active, more healthy,
better read, more creative, cleaner... (see a pattern here) because of
the unschooling emphasis in our lives. And I wish I saw more of this in
others, rather than a pervasive imagery that implies unschoolers are
messy, tv-watchin', gaming, chubbies (what I've heard about it irl and
the image I most come into contact with in conversations with others).
Thoughts? Tia
housekeeping and meal provision and unschooling. I understand the
sentiment: lower the "standard" a bit, be flexible on what is truly
"need" and whose it is, give moms a break, etc. I guess it's meant to
make us all feel better when we can't give the supposed unschooling
lifestyle our full attention, keep the house clean, the laundry done,
and nutritious meals on the table 3x a day all at once.
I think why it nags me is because this idea, while maybe meaning more
grace and relaxation for some, also promotes an idea that a natural,
"unschooled" approach to education has to mean a dishelved home and
convenience foods served on paper plates. This scenario is EXACTLY why
my husband was at first resistant to unschooling and also many critics
in our friend/family circle hesitate. It's taken living it out to show
dh first, and then the ripples widened to others, that an unschooled
environment is possible AND my home can be clean/declutttered AND we can
eat healthy, scratch meals 3x a day, 7 days a week.
The reason for that is that eating and cleaning are a part of our life
and natural rhythm every bit as much as learning is. We live clean. We
live healthy. We learn. One reason we gave up teacher's manuals and
canned curriculum is because I was pressured to do what it said rather
than get dinner on the table or wash a load of clothes. Unschooling
/hel/ps/ /us be cleaner and eat better because it's freedom...not the
other way around.
Anyway, these were my thoughts today and I wondered if anyone else
shares them. We are more physically fit, more active, more healthy,
better read, more creative, cleaner... (see a pattern here) because of
the unschooling emphasis in our lives. And I wish I saw more of this in
others, rather than a pervasive imagery that implies unschoolers are
messy, tv-watchin', gaming, chubbies (what I've heard about it irl and
the image I most come into contact with in conversations with others).
Thoughts? Tia
Pamela Sorooshian
More power to you, Tia!
But, my reality was that the time I spent in the kitchen or cleaning
house was time away from my kids unless it just happened to be a time
when they felt like joining me in the kitchen. And, when I had three
kids under 6 years old, I was tired a lot. When the kids didn't need
me, I needed to sit and rest.
Maybe it was also that our kitchen was isolated and tiny - no table,
not a comfortable place to hang out.
I do think, looking back, that I could have done a lot better with
housework - I just didn't realize how it works. Now I know - it is
really composed of a lot of little habits - picking up things as you
move around the house, rinsing dishes, throwing out trash, rummaging
through the refrigerator and tossing old stuff as you do, moving a
load of laundry in the 2 minutes the microwave is going, and so on.
If someone can develop a lot of little habits like that, they don't
so often end up with huge overwhelming messes and a house that is
terribly dirty.
Still, I think a happy unschooling home is more likely than not to be
a messy one. And I think anybody with a bunch of little children
should give themselves permission to use disposable dishes,
convenience foods, and household help. And they should not feel
guilty about needing these things.
-pam
But, my reality was that the time I spent in the kitchen or cleaning
house was time away from my kids unless it just happened to be a time
when they felt like joining me in the kitchen. And, when I had three
kids under 6 years old, I was tired a lot. When the kids didn't need
me, I needed to sit and rest.
Maybe it was also that our kitchen was isolated and tiny - no table,
not a comfortable place to hang out.
I do think, looking back, that I could have done a lot better with
housework - I just didn't realize how it works. Now I know - it is
really composed of a lot of little habits - picking up things as you
move around the house, rinsing dishes, throwing out trash, rummaging
through the refrigerator and tossing old stuff as you do, moving a
load of laundry in the 2 minutes the microwave is going, and so on.
If someone can develop a lot of little habits like that, they don't
so often end up with huge overwhelming messes and a house that is
terribly dirty.
Still, I think a happy unschooling home is more likely than not to be
a messy one. And I think anybody with a bunch of little children
should give themselves permission to use disposable dishes,
convenience foods, and household help. And they should not feel
guilty about needing these things.
-pam
On Jun 2, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Tia Graham wrote:
> Anyway, these were my thoughts today and I wondered if anyone else
> shares them. We are more physically fit, more active, more healthy,
> better read, more creative, cleaner... (see a pattern here) because of
> the unschooling emphasis in our lives. And I wish I saw more of
> this in
> others, rather than a pervasive imagery that implies unschoolers are
> messy, tv-watchin', gaming, chubbies (what I've heard about it irl and
> the image I most come into contact with in conversations with others).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
>>I understand theSupposed unschooling lifestyle? Make us feel better?
>>sentiment: lower the "standard" a bit, be flexible on what is truly
>>"need" and whose it is, give moms a break, etc. I guess it's meant to
>>make us all feel better when we can't give the supposed unschooling
>>lifestyle our full attention, keep the house clean, the laundry done,
>>and nutritious meals on the table 3x a day all at once.<<
Sounds a little sarcastic. But...
For me, it was impossible to have a very tidy space AND give my kids the
attention (4 of them ages 5 and under) they needed. I'm not trying to make
people feel better, but if that is a side effect, then great.
It was my choice to have the number of children I had at the times I did. A
messy house came with this choice and I wouldn't have had it any other way.
Not because I support messiness or dirtiness. But because it was just a
process...we eventually got to the clean house part. But the kids needs, and
my health, came first every time. Maybe it is easier with less children, but
I do hear people with fewer children saying similar things.
>>I think why it nags me is because this idea, while maybe meaning moreMy house now with all teenagers is clean whenever we want it to be (still
>>grace and relaxation for some, also promotes an idea that a natural,
>>"unschooled" approach to education has to mean a dishelved home and
>>convenience foods served on paper plates.<<
not on the top of the list of important things in life for us, but we're
each pretty clean...except one, and that's just him), and we have a
generally neat house. It was a process over a few years to move past paper
ware and real messiness. But everyone came out happy, feeling respected,
healthier (I definitely got more essential rest than I would have if I added
a very clean house to the list).
I think the important piece is to step back and look at the essentials. If a
clean home and 3 meals from scratch is one of those essentials, then that
will take the attention.
I thanked God for paper plates back in the day, even though I considered
myself environmentally thoughtful. But now, meals are cooked by any one of
us, when it works, and two of my kids are much better cooks than I am. We
now use glassware, ceramic dishes and metal utensils. For the most part, our
ingredients are whole grain and often organic. Two of us are vegetarians,
four are omnivores. I think each member of my family individually knows what
they like and believe based on having freedom with just about everything,
including housecleaning and cooking.
>>an unschooledI'm glad this is working for you.
>>environment is possible AND my home can be clean/declutttered AND we can
>>eat healthy, scratch meals 3x a day, 7 days a week.<<
>>The reason for that is that eating and cleaning are a part of our lifelive healthy. We learn.<<
>>and natural rhythm every bit as much as learning is. We live clean. We
How many children do you have? Do you all think the same way? I ask because
you have strong ideas and say "we" for them.
>>One reason we gave up teacher's manuals andHere here. We would have drowned for sure if we did school in a box. I guess
>>canned curriculum is because I was pressured to do what it said rather
>>than get dinner on the table or wash a load of clothes. Unschooling
>>/hel/ps/ /us be cleaner and eat better because it's freedom...not the
>>other way around.<<
our passions often took us in many places away from cleaning...
>>We are more physically fit, more active, more healthy,Us too. Are you associating messy house when kids are very young with
>>better read, more creative, cleaner... (see a pattern here) because of
>>the unschooling emphasis in our lives.<<
dirtiness in general? You say "see a pattern here" as if these are the
"shoulds" of life. Are you unschooling, or do you have an "unschooling
emphasis"? I think there is probably a difference.
>>And I wish I saw more of this inNot that size is important, but your mention of "chubby" along with
>>others, rather than a pervasive imagery that implies unschoolers are
>>messy, tv-watchin', gaming, chubbies (what I've heard about it irl and
>>the image I most come into contact with in conversations with others).<<
tv-watchin' and gaming doesn't fit us. I go to a gym everyday. Every member
of my family is thin. Three of my kids are active in a different physical
activity regularly. The other is still thin. I don't think these images you
have created in your thinking are very helpful for unschooling. If "clean"
living is important to you, and you have made that a priority, and it is
working for you. But it certainly isn't an end-all, in my opinion.
Jacki
Kelli Traaseth
***I think why it nags me is because this idea, while maybe meaning more
grace and relaxation for some, also promotes an idea that a natural,
"unschooled" approach to education has to mean a dishelved home and
convenience foods served on paper plates.***
I guess we do some of each. Sometimes we'll use use paper plates, sometimes we'll get fast food. We'll make homemade from scratch meals and we'll do convenience things too.
We watch TV, play games and video games, read, bike ride, walk--do all sorts of things.
That's how our unschooling life works, we do it all. And we sometimes choose to have a tidy house and sometimes there are more important things to do.
***We are more physically fit, more active, more healthy,
better read, more creative, cleaner... (see a pattern here) because of
the unschooling emphasis in our lives. ***
And that's cool if that's what's important to the kids too. :) I guess for me its hard/sad to see some families where the cleanliness, more reading and being more active/healthy outweighs the kid's happiness. (I'm not saying that's what the poster was saying, just talking about other people I know, usually not unschoolers)
Kelli~
http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." ~Anais Nin
---------------------------------
You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
grace and relaxation for some, also promotes an idea that a natural,
"unschooled" approach to education has to mean a dishelved home and
convenience foods served on paper plates.***
I guess we do some of each. Sometimes we'll use use paper plates, sometimes we'll get fast food. We'll make homemade from scratch meals and we'll do convenience things too.
We watch TV, play games and video games, read, bike ride, walk--do all sorts of things.
That's how our unschooling life works, we do it all. And we sometimes choose to have a tidy house and sometimes there are more important things to do.
***We are more physically fit, more active, more healthy,
better read, more creative, cleaner... (see a pattern here) because of
the unschooling emphasis in our lives. ***
And that's cool if that's what's important to the kids too. :) I guess for me its hard/sad to see some families where the cleanliness, more reading and being more active/healthy outweighs the kid's happiness. (I'm not saying that's what the poster was saying, just talking about other people I know, usually not unschoolers)
Kelli~
http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." ~Anais Nin
---------------------------------
You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I guess it's meant to
make us all feel better when we can't give the supposed unschooling
lifestyle our full attention-=-
I don't have a supposed unschooling lifestyle.
I have a real unschooling life.
-=-This scenario is EXACTLY why
my husband was at first resistant to unschooling and also many critics
in our friend/family circle hesitate.-=-
If you can't you can't; if you can you can. But it doesn't make it a
"supposed unschooling lifestyle."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
make us all feel better when we can't give the supposed unschooling
lifestyle our full attention-=-
I don't have a supposed unschooling lifestyle.
I have a real unschooling life.
-=-This scenario is EXACTLY why
my husband was at first resistant to unschooling and also many critics
in our friend/family circle hesitate.-=-
If you can't you can't; if you can you can. But it doesn't make it a
"supposed unschooling lifestyle."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I thanked God for paper plates back in the day, even though I
considered
myself environmentally thoughtful. But now, meals are cooked by any
one of
us, when it works, and two of my kids are much better cooks than I
am. We
now use glassware, ceramic dishes and metal utensils.-=-
We use paper plates and paper towels for microwaving sometimes, and
the used ones go into the fire-starting bag (a paper grocery bag next
to the trash), and we use them to start fires in the hot tub (or the
fireplace, in season).
When my kids were older, I wanted to get rid of all our plastic
dishes but they're still attached to some of their favorites. We've
moved steadily more toward ceramic and glass though. <g>
I really like my dishes. It's a collection like other things we've
collected. It's not one big set, it's several things that go
together in different combinations.
I've had friends who live for their houses and their crystal and
china and imported appliances. I would rather live with my kids.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
considered
myself environmentally thoughtful. But now, meals are cooked by any
one of
us, when it works, and two of my kids are much better cooks than I
am. We
now use glassware, ceramic dishes and metal utensils.-=-
We use paper plates and paper towels for microwaving sometimes, and
the used ones go into the fire-starting bag (a paper grocery bag next
to the trash), and we use them to start fires in the hot tub (or the
fireplace, in season).
When my kids were older, I wanted to get rid of all our plastic
dishes but they're still attached to some of their favorites. We've
moved steadily more toward ceramic and glass though. <g>
I really like my dishes. It's a collection like other things we've
collected. It's not one big set, it's several things that go
together in different combinations.
I've had friends who live for their houses and their crystal and
china and imported appliances. I would rather live with my kids.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Graham
I don't have a lot of time to reply right now (will tomorrow) but I
wanted to clarify something quick: when I said "supposed unschooling
lifestyle" I didn't mean any implication at all that anyone was
"pretending"...I was trying to show (poorly perhaps) that the
non-unschooling world or struggling/comparing moms out there may have
(from my experience do) have an impression of what an unschooling
lifestyle is. I myself know it's as individual as there are homes living
it, but I think there is a perception out there that there are some
commonalities, and not all of them healthy.
More later~ Tia
Sandra Dodd wrote:
wanted to clarify something quick: when I said "supposed unschooling
lifestyle" I didn't mean any implication at all that anyone was
"pretending"...I was trying to show (poorly perhaps) that the
non-unschooling world or struggling/comparing moms out there may have
(from my experience do) have an impression of what an unschooling
lifestyle is. I myself know it's as individual as there are homes living
it, but I think there is a perception out there that there are some
commonalities, and not all of them healthy.
More later~ Tia
Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> -=-I guess it's meant to
> make us all feel better when we can't give the supposed unschooling
> lifestyle our full attention-=-
>
> I don't have a supposed unschooling lifestyle.
> I have a real unschooling life.
>
> -=-This scenario is EXACTLY why
> my husband was at first resistant to unschooling and also many critics
> in our friend/family circle hesitate.-=-
>
> If you can't you can't; if you can you can. But it doesn't make it a
> "supposed unschooling lifestyle."
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/829 - Release Date: 6/2/2007 5:26 PM
>
Tia Graham
" Maybe it was also that our kitchen was isolated and tiny - no table,
not a comfortable place to hang out."
I know in my case, having a large kitchen-room that includes our table
and laundry area off to one side is a big deal. In 1200 square feet, we
really ARE all together most of the time! :-)
" Still, I think a happy unschooling home is more likely than not to be
a messy one. And I think anybody with a bunch of little children
should give themselves permission to use disposable dishes,
convenience foods, and household help. And they should not feel
guilty about needing these things."
I agree. I have my days/times when we use paper stuff. I try to keep it
to a minimum out of expense and environmental concerns. My real intent
though was not to compare or start any kind of defensiveness, nor to
diminish anyone's real need for a break like that, now and then or
always if they need it. It was to represent my own reality which often
seems to stand in the face of a trend; a perception I regularly fight
against. Our home is creative and often "messy" but we stay on top of
clutter and I (not so much my children) keep the house pretty clean as
my husband and I prefer it that way. I don't think unschooling has to
mean a chaotic environment, though I've had more than one person tell me
it would, and felt that even in last week's threads.
Tia
not a comfortable place to hang out."
I know in my case, having a large kitchen-room that includes our table
and laundry area off to one side is a big deal. In 1200 square feet, we
really ARE all together most of the time! :-)
" Still, I think a happy unschooling home is more likely than not to be
a messy one. And I think anybody with a bunch of little children
should give themselves permission to use disposable dishes,
convenience foods, and household help. And they should not feel
guilty about needing these things."
I agree. I have my days/times when we use paper stuff. I try to keep it
to a minimum out of expense and environmental concerns. My real intent
though was not to compare or start any kind of defensiveness, nor to
diminish anyone's real need for a break like that, now and then or
always if they need it. It was to represent my own reality which often
seems to stand in the face of a trend; a perception I regularly fight
against. Our home is creative and often "messy" but we stay on top of
clutter and I (not so much my children) keep the house pretty clean as
my husband and I prefer it that way. I don't think unschooling has to
mean a chaotic environment, though I've had more than one person tell me
it would, and felt that even in last week's threads.
Tia
Tia Graham
>>I understand the"Supposed unschooling lifestyle? Make us feel better?
>>sentiment: lower the "standard" a bit, be flexible on what is truly
>>"need" and whose it is, give moms a break, etc. I guess it's meant to
>>make us all feel better when we can't give the supposed unschooling
>>lifestyle our full attention, keep the house clean, the laundry done,
>>and nutritious meals on the table 3x a day all at once.<<
Sounds a little sarcastic. But..."
No, no. Wasn't meant to be sarcastic at all. Is that not the intent of
telling someone to go ahead and let the house get messy? Switch to all
paper products? Eat frozen food rather than cook, as a habit, not an
occassion? It was to relieve any guilty feelings if I understood
correctly. I already tried to clarify what I meant by the words
"supposed unschooling lifestyle" in another post.
"I think the important piece is to step back and look at the essentials.
If a
clean home and 3 meals from scratch is one of those essentials, then that
will take the attention."
In our home, it's important to myself and dh, and we both think our
children thrive and can concentrate better in an organized (not
immaculate) environment. I know I can't possibly be unique in that
feeling! My point was that I often feel like a weirdo for being neat and
organized AND an unschooler.
"How many children do you have? Do you all think the same way? I ask because
you have strong ideas and say "we" for them."
I have 5, 4 surviving. They are 11-2. I had the first 3 in 3 years and
our 4th also had critical medical issues. I say that to say I know what
"busy" is. Even now, we suburban homestead, I run a business, and am
writing a book. I could never, ever do all this if I had to do a canned
curriculum. I do indeed have strong ideas and one of them is to hike my
own hike. I want a clean house so I clean the house. Our kids don't have
assigned chores but I do ask them to help with stuff through the day. I
should qualify that because at our house, a question is a question if
one can answer "no" and it be okay. If I ask, they can say no and often
do! We talk a lot about being a team (everyone makes the mess, everyone
cleans the mess) and are admittedly raising them with the idea of being
responsible for their own mess. But that also looks different for
everyone. The little one, for instance, isn't responsible a bit ;-). And
my oldest two are very different: one is a neatnic and the other is a
free spirit. She helps with communal spaces but her own space is her own
space.
"Us too. Are you associating messy house when kids are very young with
dirtiness in general?"
Oh gee...if I am, then I'm in trouble! :-) No. There is a difference
between what I call "the signs of life" and filth.
" You say "see a pattern here" as if these are the
"shoulds" of life. Are you unschooling, or do you have an "unschooling
emphasis"? I think there is probably a difference."
Ah. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
"Not that size is important, but your mention of "chubby" along with
tv-watchin' and gaming doesn't fit us. I go to a gym everyday. Every member
of my family is thin. Three of my kids are active in a different physical
activity regularly. The other is still thin. I don't think these images you
have created in your thinking are very helpful for unschooling. If "clean"
living is important to you, and you have made that a priority, and it is
working for you. But it certainly isn't an end-all, in my opinion."
No, it's not an end-all. Just a part of my life. I sometimes wonder if
it's as valid as the mom who desperately needs take-out and paper
plates. Are we both unschoolers or not?
Tia
Sandra Dodd
-=-No, no. Wasn't meant to be sarcastic at all. Is that not the
intent of
telling someone to go ahead and let the house get messy? Switch to all
paper products? Eat frozen food rather than cook, as a habit, not an
occassion?-=-
I don't think anyone has said that, and if anyone were to, it
wouldn't be sarcasm.
If you state something in an offensive way, saying "no offense" only
makes it worse.
Joyce has said, when someone says "I have to..." that they do NOT
"have to," there are options.
To state that there are options shows a person that she's making a
choice. That is not the same as a recommendation.
-=-I already tried to clarify what I meant by the words
"supposed unschooling lifestyle" in another post.
-=-
Once it's out there, though, you don't own it, and once you've said
"supposed" you're stuck with having chosen that word. It's okay. Let
it go.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
intent of
telling someone to go ahead and let the house get messy? Switch to all
paper products? Eat frozen food rather than cook, as a habit, not an
occassion?-=-
I don't think anyone has said that, and if anyone were to, it
wouldn't be sarcasm.
If you state something in an offensive way, saying "no offense" only
makes it worse.
Joyce has said, when someone says "I have to..." that they do NOT
"have to," there are options.
To state that there are options shows a person that she's making a
choice. That is not the same as a recommendation.
-=-I already tried to clarify what I meant by the words
"supposed unschooling lifestyle" in another post.
-=-
Once it's out there, though, you don't own it, and once you've said
"supposed" you're stuck with having chosen that word. It's okay. Let
it go.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 2, 2007, at 9:02 PM, Tia Graham wrote:
ourselves to meeting our kids' needs and supporting their interests
and being fully available to them, even when we had a number of young
ones and we were stretched thin, tired and, sometimes, overwhelmed.
Conscious living is what it is all about. There is a big difference
in attitude between slothfulness versus choosing to lower the
priorities of housecleaning, cooking from scratch, eating off nice
dishes, and so on, in order to spend your time and energy in other ways.
People have different kinds of intelligences, ala Howard Gardner. I
think some kind of space and time "orderliness" might be one of the
so-far undefined ones. I don't have much natural "orderliness"
intelligence and had to learn and practice it over years. By the time
I figured out how to do some of what relatively neat people seem to
do naturally, my kids were in their teens and my house was way
overloaded and disorganized. In place of "orderliness," I have
tremendous energy, enthusiasm, and multi-tasking abilities, plus
flexibility and tolerance and appreciation of a lot of swirling chaos
around me.
In my family, the very same way of "being" that left my house
overloaded and disorganized was what made our unschooling lives
endlessly exciting and rich with much variety of experience. I was
the epitome of the "side-tracked home executive," but another way to
see it would be that I was the person who was always following some
side track to make new discoveries and connections and it was all
those side tracks that created the rich texture of our lives.
Another point of view: I am an economist and our mantra is, of
course, "There is no such thing as a free lunch." This means that
every time you make a choice, you give up something else - the next-
best alternative is the cost of what you do choose. If you choose to
spend time cooking dinner, from scratch, that is time you are not
spending playing Monopoly with a child or holding the hose while the
children run through the water or snuggling up on the couch to watch
yet another episode of Sponge Bob. This is a fact of life - when you
choose vacuuming, you're "not choosing" something else and that
"something else" could have been time connecting with a child. There
is always a cost. Always something else you could have done, instead,
always a next-best alternative. What we were suggesting was to take a
realistic look at the cost of trying to keep the house very clean,
eat off real dishes, cook from scratch - what is being given up? Make
a choice based on what has the most value to you.
The point isn't so much to relieve guilt as to relieve exhaustion and
support unschooling, which requires that parents mostly put
children's needs and interests at the top of their priorities.
lifestyle is necessarily one of slothfulness, but you disagree,
thinking that people can unschool and still keep their house clean
and orderly and cook all meals from scratch. I think you're wrong and
that many of us could not even hope to do that when we had multiple
young children. I'm not saying you are neglecting your kids to do it,
you may be far more efficient and skilled at this kind of thing that
I ever was or am, and maybe your kids keep themselves busier on their
own than mine did, but if I'd spent my time preparing three meals per
day, from scratch, that would have taken considerable time away from
what I spent with my little children, for sure.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> No, no. Wasn't meant to be sarcastic at all. Is that not the intent ofThe point was practical advice on how we were able to really devote
> telling someone to go ahead and let the house get messy? Switch to all
> paper products? Eat frozen food rather than cook, as a habit, not an
> occassion? It was to relieve any guilty feelings if I understood
> correctly.
ourselves to meeting our kids' needs and supporting their interests
and being fully available to them, even when we had a number of young
ones and we were stretched thin, tired and, sometimes, overwhelmed.
Conscious living is what it is all about. There is a big difference
in attitude between slothfulness versus choosing to lower the
priorities of housecleaning, cooking from scratch, eating off nice
dishes, and so on, in order to spend your time and energy in other ways.
People have different kinds of intelligences, ala Howard Gardner. I
think some kind of space and time "orderliness" might be one of the
so-far undefined ones. I don't have much natural "orderliness"
intelligence and had to learn and practice it over years. By the time
I figured out how to do some of what relatively neat people seem to
do naturally, my kids were in their teens and my house was way
overloaded and disorganized. In place of "orderliness," I have
tremendous energy, enthusiasm, and multi-tasking abilities, plus
flexibility and tolerance and appreciation of a lot of swirling chaos
around me.
In my family, the very same way of "being" that left my house
overloaded and disorganized was what made our unschooling lives
endlessly exciting and rich with much variety of experience. I was
the epitome of the "side-tracked home executive," but another way to
see it would be that I was the person who was always following some
side track to make new discoveries and connections and it was all
those side tracks that created the rich texture of our lives.
Another point of view: I am an economist and our mantra is, of
course, "There is no such thing as a free lunch." This means that
every time you make a choice, you give up something else - the next-
best alternative is the cost of what you do choose. If you choose to
spend time cooking dinner, from scratch, that is time you are not
spending playing Monopoly with a child or holding the hose while the
children run through the water or snuggling up on the couch to watch
yet another episode of Sponge Bob. This is a fact of life - when you
choose vacuuming, you're "not choosing" something else and that
"something else" could have been time connecting with a child. There
is always a cost. Always something else you could have done, instead,
always a next-best alternative. What we were suggesting was to take a
realistic look at the cost of trying to keep the house very clean,
eat off real dishes, cook from scratch - what is being given up? Make
a choice based on what has the most value to you.
The point isn't so much to relieve guilt as to relieve exhaustion and
support unschooling, which requires that parents mostly put
children's needs and interests at the top of their priorities.
> I already tried to clarify what I meant by the wordsI understood you to mean that other people think that the unschooling
> "supposed unschooling lifestyle" in another post.
lifestyle is necessarily one of slothfulness, but you disagree,
thinking that people can unschool and still keep their house clean
and orderly and cook all meals from scratch. I think you're wrong and
that many of us could not even hope to do that when we had multiple
young children. I'm not saying you are neglecting your kids to do it,
you may be far more efficient and skilled at this kind of thing that
I ever was or am, and maybe your kids keep themselves busier on their
own than mine did, but if I'd spent my time preparing three meals per
day, from scratch, that would have taken considerable time away from
what I spent with my little children, for sure.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
On Jun 2, 2007, at 4:36 PM, Tia Graham wrote:
together. ;-) The first most helpful step for people who can't figure
out how to do it all is being aware of what's important: the kids and
family. Focus there first. Everything else is a choice.
After that I think the most helpful thing we can do about the extras
is help people find ways to make them 1) less time consuming and 2)
choices rather than necessities, to help them again focus on what's
important. 3 meals from scratch a day isn't important. It *is*
helpful to see 3 meals from scratch as a gift someone wants -- freely
*chooses* -- to give their family rather than something the family
needs. It's a present, not a necessity. If someone is taking from the
family (time, sending negativity into the environment) to give the
family a gift that the family doesn't necessarily want, then it's
helpful to see it clearly in that light that it isn't a gift. It's a
vision of perfect homelife mom's trying to impose on the family.
I think tips on how people do family maintenance is great. (There's a
useful thread at UnschoolingDiscussion on storage.) I think too much
moves the focus away from the kids onto the extras. The extras are
advanced unschooling ;-) They're only for after people have fully
embraced putting kids and family first.
are active, only eat organic food by choice don't write in to ask for
helpful suggestions!
The advice obviously does skew towards helping people be comfortable
with what they perceive as problems. The picture we paint on lists
and boards tends to be skewed because we're dealing with problems.
Just as a dermatologist's office tends to be skewed towards people
with skin problems, totally ignoring the majority of the population
who doesn't.
There are Days In the Life collections. Sandra has one. There's one
at the Unschooling.info boards. But they're fairly skewed too ;-)
People tend to write about extraordinary days because those fill them
with a passion to write. People don't write about the days their kids
spent playing video games for 8 hours (if they're comfortable with
that); they don't write about the days they spent shopping, coloring,
managing disagrements; because the thought of taking the time to
write about them is more likely to fill them with an urge to clean a
closet or something ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> And I wish I saw more of this inWell, the people who ask questions aren't the ones who have it all
> others,
together. ;-) The first most helpful step for people who can't figure
out how to do it all is being aware of what's important: the kids and
family. Focus there first. Everything else is a choice.
After that I think the most helpful thing we can do about the extras
is help people find ways to make them 1) less time consuming and 2)
choices rather than necessities, to help them again focus on what's
important. 3 meals from scratch a day isn't important. It *is*
helpful to see 3 meals from scratch as a gift someone wants -- freely
*chooses* -- to give their family rather than something the family
needs. It's a present, not a necessity. If someone is taking from the
family (time, sending negativity into the environment) to give the
family a gift that the family doesn't necessarily want, then it's
helpful to see it clearly in that light that it isn't a gift. It's a
vision of perfect homelife mom's trying to impose on the family.
I think tips on how people do family maintenance is great. (There's a
useful thread at UnschoolingDiscussion on storage.) I think too much
moves the focus away from the kids onto the extras. The extras are
advanced unschooling ;-) They're only for after people have fully
embraced putting kids and family first.
> rather than a pervasive imagery that implies unschoolers arePeople whose kids choose not to watch TV, don't like video games, who
> messy, tv-watchin', gaming, chubbies (what I've heard about it irl and
> the image I most come into contact with in conversations with others).
are active, only eat organic food by choice don't write in to ask for
helpful suggestions!
The advice obviously does skew towards helping people be comfortable
with what they perceive as problems. The picture we paint on lists
and boards tends to be skewed because we're dealing with problems.
Just as a dermatologist's office tends to be skewed towards people
with skin problems, totally ignoring the majority of the population
who doesn't.
There are Days In the Life collections. Sandra has one. There's one
at the Unschooling.info boards. But they're fairly skewed too ;-)
People tend to write about extraordinary days because those fill them
with a passion to write. People don't write about the days their kids
spent playing video games for 8 hours (if they're comfortable with
that); they don't write about the days they spent shopping, coloring,
managing disagrements; because the thought of taking the time to
write about them is more likely to fill them with an urge to clean a
closet or something ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-In my family, the very same way of "being" that left my house
overloaded and disorganized was what made our unschooling lives
endlessly exciting and rich with much variety of experience. I was
the epitome of the "side-tracked home executive," but another way to
see it would be that I was the person who was always following some
side track to make new discoveries and connections and it was all
those side tracks that created the rich texture of our lives.-=-
All three of my kids (15, 18, 20) hang out with a social group, and
most of the people in that group are equally friendly with all three
of them.
Last night that group had "a prom." There were mostly-randomly
assigned couples (eleven couples). The girls got fancy dresses from
thrift stores and the boys wore suits. The couples were drawn with
rejections on sibling draws or already-couples. Some of the girls
got together Thursday night and made corsages and boutonneires from
roses and greens they'd bought at a flower shop. They were going to
one of the boys' parents' house for photos, then to an Italian
restaurant, then back to the house to dance and swim. They're all
still asleep.
Of that group, five were unschoolers, and the rest "school kids," but
theatre and gaming and fantasy kids mostly. Holly says lots of them
are easily discouraged about their creative bursts by other kids
saying "dumb," but not as bad as most groups she's been around.
The point of this story was going to be this: Beth, the organizer,
who is a regular in local theatre stuff, came into my den when she
came to pick Holly up for flower arranging. She said "I LOVE this
room!"
My den is not my best room. I had been making costumes for weeks,
and never cleaned up after it. There was laundry all over the couch,
and baskets of sorted laundry various places on the floor. There's a
shelf of DVD's and tapes nearly as big as a wall, and books about
movies and TV shows there. There's another shelf of games, with
stuffed monkeys (dusty stuffed monkeys) on the top. The ironing
board was up with piles of ironed napkins and sewing supplies on it.
But she loves that room. And here's one reason why: I asked what
supplies they had, and she said she got florists' tape and roses and
greens. I said "Are you using wires?" She looked blank, so I opened
a drawer, in that room, and pulled out a pack of florists' wire and
handed it to her. I said maybe they're using something else more
high-tech these days; if so, bring these back and let me know what
the deal is (because one of the girls had worked for a florist).
Holly said the next day that the florist girl was embarrassed and
worried because she hadn't said "and buy wire," and Beth was happy to
be able to hand the wires over, and say to Holly several times that
night "I'm so glad your mom gave us wire!"
My house is cluttered, but I had florist's wire in the room where
someone mentioned flower arranging.
The other extreme of that is a house so sterile that there is nothing
with which to create or from which to learn. Holly had a best
friend, when she was four and five and six. The girl LOVED to come
across the street to our house, and she loved to paint. We had all
kinds of paints and paper, and she did different kinds of painting
different days, and sometimes would come in the door saying "Can I
paint?" For her birthday we gave her a how-to-paint book with the
water colors built into it, and pages right there to paint on, all
self-contained, with a storage space for the brush. Her mother was
NOT happy at all. She said she didn't want her painting in the
house, that she could paint at school.
Paint at school!? Not for many years, and even then, once a week
*maybe* unless one was in an art class in high school, and even then,
painting would only be one small part of the years' media experiences.
If my house is going to be a school too, I want it to be a GREAT
school where kids can paint every day if they want to. I want it to
be the best school, where there are things to discover and use
independently or share or take outside into the sunlight and rain
(not musical instruments, but most other things), and I want a
microscope, but they take room. And I want adult-reading-level pop-
up books about physics and Egypt, but they take room. And I want
LOTS of recorded music and movies and books, but they do certainly
and absolutely take a lot of room.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
overloaded and disorganized was what made our unschooling lives
endlessly exciting and rich with much variety of experience. I was
the epitome of the "side-tracked home executive," but another way to
see it would be that I was the person who was always following some
side track to make new discoveries and connections and it was all
those side tracks that created the rich texture of our lives.-=-
All three of my kids (15, 18, 20) hang out with a social group, and
most of the people in that group are equally friendly with all three
of them.
Last night that group had "a prom." There were mostly-randomly
assigned couples (eleven couples). The girls got fancy dresses from
thrift stores and the boys wore suits. The couples were drawn with
rejections on sibling draws or already-couples. Some of the girls
got together Thursday night and made corsages and boutonneires from
roses and greens they'd bought at a flower shop. They were going to
one of the boys' parents' house for photos, then to an Italian
restaurant, then back to the house to dance and swim. They're all
still asleep.
Of that group, five were unschoolers, and the rest "school kids," but
theatre and gaming and fantasy kids mostly. Holly says lots of them
are easily discouraged about their creative bursts by other kids
saying "dumb," but not as bad as most groups she's been around.
The point of this story was going to be this: Beth, the organizer,
who is a regular in local theatre stuff, came into my den when she
came to pick Holly up for flower arranging. She said "I LOVE this
room!"
My den is not my best room. I had been making costumes for weeks,
and never cleaned up after it. There was laundry all over the couch,
and baskets of sorted laundry various places on the floor. There's a
shelf of DVD's and tapes nearly as big as a wall, and books about
movies and TV shows there. There's another shelf of games, with
stuffed monkeys (dusty stuffed monkeys) on the top. The ironing
board was up with piles of ironed napkins and sewing supplies on it.
But she loves that room. And here's one reason why: I asked what
supplies they had, and she said she got florists' tape and roses and
greens. I said "Are you using wires?" She looked blank, so I opened
a drawer, in that room, and pulled out a pack of florists' wire and
handed it to her. I said maybe they're using something else more
high-tech these days; if so, bring these back and let me know what
the deal is (because one of the girls had worked for a florist).
Holly said the next day that the florist girl was embarrassed and
worried because she hadn't said "and buy wire," and Beth was happy to
be able to hand the wires over, and say to Holly several times that
night "I'm so glad your mom gave us wire!"
My house is cluttered, but I had florist's wire in the room where
someone mentioned flower arranging.
The other extreme of that is a house so sterile that there is nothing
with which to create or from which to learn. Holly had a best
friend, when she was four and five and six. The girl LOVED to come
across the street to our house, and she loved to paint. We had all
kinds of paints and paper, and she did different kinds of painting
different days, and sometimes would come in the door saying "Can I
paint?" For her birthday we gave her a how-to-paint book with the
water colors built into it, and pages right there to paint on, all
self-contained, with a storage space for the brush. Her mother was
NOT happy at all. She said she didn't want her painting in the
house, that she could paint at school.
Paint at school!? Not for many years, and even then, once a week
*maybe* unless one was in an art class in high school, and even then,
painting would only be one small part of the years' media experiences.
If my house is going to be a school too, I want it to be a GREAT
school where kids can paint every day if they want to. I want it to
be the best school, where there are things to discover and use
independently or share or take outside into the sunlight and rain
(not musical instruments, but most other things), and I want a
microscope, but they take room. And I want adult-reading-level pop-
up books about physics and Egypt, but they take room. And I want
LOTS of recorded music and movies and books, but they do certainly
and absolutely take a lot of room.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-There are Days In the Life collections. Sandra has one. There's one
at the Unschooling.info boards. But they're fairly skewed too ;-)
People tend to write about extraordinary days because those fill them
with a passion to write.
-=-
http://sandradodd.com/typical
-=- People don't write about the days their kids
spent playing video games for 8 hours (if they're comfortable with
that); they don't write about the days they spent shopping, coloring,
managing disagrements; because the thought of taking the time to
write about them is more likely to fill them with an urge to clean a
closet or something ;-)-=-
Some people will write about ANYthing, I guess. <g> That would be me.
In a published collection called "Patchwork of Days," I wrote about
going shopping because the kids were coloring and ran out of pink
crayons. We went to an educational supply shop that used to be used
by all the teachers in the state, but has long ago closed. They sold
individual crayons. Of course, we couldn't just go in and get
crayons. <g>
My urge to write is MUCH more present than my urge to clean closets,
which is good for people who come here to read, but not as good for
finding things in my closets. On the other hand, I have years of
experience with packrattery and clutter, and am really very good at
finding something I know I have within half an hour or so of being
asked for it. More often I know right where it is, in a box under
other boxes, in the back of a closet. (I did fail to find one dress
pattern from the 70's last month, and so I think I must have given it
away or loaned it out.)
My priorities are to collect and provide and facilitate.
I'm very grateful to others who write, too, even when they're not
having a remarkable day, and for letting me collect and provide and
facilitate getting that writing out in public where others can find it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
at the Unschooling.info boards. But they're fairly skewed too ;-)
People tend to write about extraordinary days because those fill them
with a passion to write.
-=-
http://sandradodd.com/typical
-=- People don't write about the days their kids
spent playing video games for 8 hours (if they're comfortable with
that); they don't write about the days they spent shopping, coloring,
managing disagrements; because the thought of taking the time to
write about them is more likely to fill them with an urge to clean a
closet or something ;-)-=-
Some people will write about ANYthing, I guess. <g> That would be me.
In a published collection called "Patchwork of Days," I wrote about
going shopping because the kids were coloring and ran out of pink
crayons. We went to an educational supply shop that used to be used
by all the teachers in the state, but has long ago closed. They sold
individual crayons. Of course, we couldn't just go in and get
crayons. <g>
My urge to write is MUCH more present than my urge to clean closets,
which is good for people who come here to read, but not as good for
finding things in my closets. On the other hand, I have years of
experience with packrattery and clutter, and am really very good at
finding something I know I have within half an hour or so of being
asked for it. More often I know right where it is, in a box under
other boxes, in the back of a closet. (I did fail to find one dress
pattern from the 70's last month, and so I think I must have given it
away or loaned it out.)
My priorities are to collect and provide and facilitate.
I'm very grateful to others who write, too, even when they're not
having a remarkable day, and for letting me collect and provide and
facilitate getting that writing out in public where others can find it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
helmcneill
Thanks Pam, I thought this was beautiful and inspiring...and truth be
told, pretty much how I feel about our lovely and chaotic unschooling
life.
Well, sans the 'tremendous energy' part :)
!helene!
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
told, pretty much how I feel about our lovely and chaotic unschooling
life.
Well, sans the 'tremendous energy' part :)
!helene!
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>By the time
> I figured out how to do some of what relatively neat people seem to
> do naturally, my kids were in their teens and my house was way
> overloaded and disorganized. In place of "orderliness," I have
> tremendous energy, enthusiasm, and multi-tasking abilities, plus
> flexibility and tolerance and appreciation of a lot of swirling chaos
> around me.
>
> In my family, the very same way of "being" that left my house
> overloaded and disorganized was what made our unschooling lives
> endlessly exciting and rich with much variety of experience...
Tia Graham
" If you state something in an offensive way, saying "no offense" only
makes it worse."
My apologies. If someone has felt hurt or angered by something I said,
and it was not out of ill intent but rather a matter of the medium or
"coming out wrong", it often does help to clarify.
Tia
Sandra Dodd wrote:
makes it worse."
My apologies. If someone has felt hurt or angered by something I said,
and it was not out of ill intent but rather a matter of the medium or
"coming out wrong", it often does help to clarify.
Tia
Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> -=-No, no. Wasn't meant to be sarcastic at all. Is that not the
> intent of
> telling someone to go ahead and let the house get messy? Switch to all
> paper products? Eat frozen food rather than cook, as a habit, not an
> occassion?-=-
>
> I don't think anyone has said that, and if anyone were to, it
> wouldn't be sarcasm.
>
> If you state something in an offensive way, saying "no offense" only
> makes it worse.
>
> Joyce has said, when someone says "I have to..." that they do NOT
> "have to," there are options.
> To state that there are options shows a person that she's making a
> choice. That is not the same as a recommendation.
>
> -=-I already tried to clarify what I meant by the words
> "supposed unschooling lifestyle" in another post.
> -=-
>
> Once it's out there, though, you don't own it, and once you've said
> "supposed" you're stuck with having chosen that word. It's okay. Let
> it go.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/829 - Release Date: 6/2/2007 5:26 PM
>
Tia Graham
"If you choose to
spend time cooking dinner, from scratch, that is time you are not
spending playing Monopoly with a child or holding the hose while the
children run through the water or snuggling up on the couch to watch
yet another episode of Sponge Bob. This is a fact of life - when you
choose vacuuming, you're "not choosing" something else and that
"something else" could have been time connecting with a child. There
is always a cost. "
Right. Or benefit. In our home, we have a lot of together time. Then, we
separate for awhile so the introverts among us can have their down time,
and so each person gets time to "think". Mom cleans. Our oldest
rollerblades. I choose to clean and cook and it does take away time I
could be playing Monopoly....only that's a negative way to look at it
because my kids WANT some time away from Mom to do their own thing. And
Mom needs (yes, genuine need) some time to clean the slate of the home
so that creativity can begin anew. In our home at least, the most
creative times are when the art supplies can be actually found, the
paper is in good supply, there are not dishes all over the work space,
and everyone is well fed. It is another form of fascilitation, not
deprivation.
" The point isn't so much to relieve guilt as to relieve exhaustion and
support unschooling, which requires that parents mostly put
children's needs and interests at the top of their priorities."
Thanks for the clarification.
" I understood you to mean that other people think that the unschooling
lifestyle is necessarily one of slothfulness, but you disagree,
thinking that people can unschool and still keep their house clean
and orderly and cook all meals from scratch."
Yes. This my life.
"I think you're wrong "
So do you think I'm lying? That I'm deluded and not seeing it clearly?
That I don't really understand the unschooling life?
"I'm not saying you are neglecting your kids to do it,
you may be far more efficient and skilled at this kind of thing that
I ever was or am, and maybe your kids keep themselves busier on their
own than mine did, but if I'd spent my time preparing three meals per
day, from scratch, that would have taken considerable time away from
what I spent with my little children, for sure."
But you are, aren't you? The message I'm getting is that "mess is
evidence of unschooling and order is the evidence of child neglect and a
mom who consistently chooses other things over her children". Because it
wasn't your experience, or that of some others, it must not be possible
or valid.
It's funny to me, because in the classical/traditional realm, I'm not
valid either. Too much mess, creativity, disorder, flexibilty, children
who speak for themselves... in short, child neglect. And in the
unschooling realm...too much order, strong ideas, selfish choices...in
short, child neglect. Cracks me up. I'm very, very glad I don't try to
put my children in the kinds of boxes adults try to put one another in.
Tia
spend time cooking dinner, from scratch, that is time you are not
spending playing Monopoly with a child or holding the hose while the
children run through the water or snuggling up on the couch to watch
yet another episode of Sponge Bob. This is a fact of life - when you
choose vacuuming, you're "not choosing" something else and that
"something else" could have been time connecting with a child. There
is always a cost. "
Right. Or benefit. In our home, we have a lot of together time. Then, we
separate for awhile so the introverts among us can have their down time,
and so each person gets time to "think". Mom cleans. Our oldest
rollerblades. I choose to clean and cook and it does take away time I
could be playing Monopoly....only that's a negative way to look at it
because my kids WANT some time away from Mom to do their own thing. And
Mom needs (yes, genuine need) some time to clean the slate of the home
so that creativity can begin anew. In our home at least, the most
creative times are when the art supplies can be actually found, the
paper is in good supply, there are not dishes all over the work space,
and everyone is well fed. It is another form of fascilitation, not
deprivation.
" The point isn't so much to relieve guilt as to relieve exhaustion and
support unschooling, which requires that parents mostly put
children's needs and interests at the top of their priorities."
Thanks for the clarification.
" I understood you to mean that other people think that the unschooling
lifestyle is necessarily one of slothfulness, but you disagree,
thinking that people can unschool and still keep their house clean
and orderly and cook all meals from scratch."
Yes. This my life.
"I think you're wrong "
So do you think I'm lying? That I'm deluded and not seeing it clearly?
That I don't really understand the unschooling life?
"I'm not saying you are neglecting your kids to do it,
you may be far more efficient and skilled at this kind of thing that
I ever was or am, and maybe your kids keep themselves busier on their
own than mine did, but if I'd spent my time preparing three meals per
day, from scratch, that would have taken considerable time away from
what I spent with my little children, for sure."
But you are, aren't you? The message I'm getting is that "mess is
evidence of unschooling and order is the evidence of child neglect and a
mom who consistently chooses other things over her children". Because it
wasn't your experience, or that of some others, it must not be possible
or valid.
It's funny to me, because in the classical/traditional realm, I'm not
valid either. Too much mess, creativity, disorder, flexibilty, children
who speak for themselves... in short, child neglect. And in the
unschooling realm...too much order, strong ideas, selfish choices...in
short, child neglect. Cracks me up. I'm very, very glad I don't try to
put my children in the kinds of boxes adults try to put one another in.
Tia
Tia Graham
"It *is*
helpful to see 3 meals from scratch as a gift someone wants -- freely
*chooses* -- to give their family rather than something the family
needs. It's a present, not a necessity. If someone is taking from the
family (time, sending negativity into the environment) to give the
family a gift that the family doesn't necessarily want, then it's
helpful to see it clearly in that light that it isn't a gift. It's a
vision of perfect homelife mom's trying to impose on the family."
Huh? I can promise you that my family needs to eat at least 3x a day. I
can promise that they need that food to be free from allergens,
preservatives, additives, and chemicals. It's a gift that I provide I
suppose...of course, it would be cruel deprivation not to give/provide
it. It would also be an abdication of my role as their mother/provider.
They do trust I will feed them and that the food I serve will do no harm.
"They're only for after people have fully
embraced putting kids and family first."
I'm not new to the unschooling life. Not even new to the list. I can say
in our household, we have fully embraced putting kids and family first.
But organization and useful storage was not something I did only after
this...it's quite necessary when living in small living spaces, which we
always have done, and surely, surely I can not be only unschooler out
there that likes to maintain, for the good of the entire family, a neat
environment that promotes creativity.
"they don't write about the days they spent shopping, coloring,
managing disagrements; because the thought of taking the time to
write about them is more likely to fill them with an urge to clean a
closet or something ;-)"
I both write about this kind of day and clean my closets :-). I must be
a freak. :-)
Tia
Fetteroll wrote:
helpful to see 3 meals from scratch as a gift someone wants -- freely
*chooses* -- to give their family rather than something the family
needs. It's a present, not a necessity. If someone is taking from the
family (time, sending negativity into the environment) to give the
family a gift that the family doesn't necessarily want, then it's
helpful to see it clearly in that light that it isn't a gift. It's a
vision of perfect homelife mom's trying to impose on the family."
Huh? I can promise you that my family needs to eat at least 3x a day. I
can promise that they need that food to be free from allergens,
preservatives, additives, and chemicals. It's a gift that I provide I
suppose...of course, it would be cruel deprivation not to give/provide
it. It would also be an abdication of my role as their mother/provider.
They do trust I will feed them and that the food I serve will do no harm.
"They're only for after people have fully
embraced putting kids and family first."
I'm not new to the unschooling life. Not even new to the list. I can say
in our household, we have fully embraced putting kids and family first.
But organization and useful storage was not something I did only after
this...it's quite necessary when living in small living spaces, which we
always have done, and surely, surely I can not be only unschooler out
there that likes to maintain, for the good of the entire family, a neat
environment that promotes creativity.
"they don't write about the days they spent shopping, coloring,
managing disagrements; because the thought of taking the time to
write about them is more likely to fill them with an urge to clean a
closet or something ;-)"
I both write about this kind of day and clean my closets :-). I must be
a freak. :-)
Tia
Fetteroll wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 2, 2007, at 4:36 PM, Tia Graham wrote:
>
> > And I wish I saw more of this in
> > others,
>
> Well, the people who ask questions aren't the ones who have it all
> together. ;-) The first most helpful step for people who can't figure
> out how to do it all is being aware of what's important: the kids and
> family. Focus there first. Everything else is a choice.
>
> After that I think the most helpful thing we can do about the extras
> is help people find ways to make them 1) less time consuming and 2)
> choices rather than necessities, to help them again focus on what's
> important. 3 meals from scratch a day isn't important. It *is*
> helpful to see 3 meals from scratch as a gift someone wants -- freely
> *chooses* -- to give their family rather than something the family
> needs. It's a present, not a necessity. If someone is taking from the
> family (time, sending negativity into the environment) to give the
> family a gift that the family doesn't necessarily want, then it's
> helpful to see it clearly in that light that it isn't a gift. It's a
> vision of perfect homelife mom's trying to impose on the family.
>
> I think tips on how people do family maintenance is great. (There's a
> useful thread at UnschoolingDiscussion on storage.) I think too much
> moves the focus away from the kids onto the extras. The extras are
> advanced unschooling ;-) They're only for after people have fully
> embraced putting kids and family first.
>
> > rather than a pervasive imagery that implies unschoolers are
> > messy, tv-watchin', gaming, chubbies (what I've heard about it irl and
> > the image I most come into contact with in conversations with others).
>
> People whose kids choose not to watch TV, don't like video games, who
> are active, only eat organic food by choice don't write in to ask for
> helpful suggestions!
>
> The advice obviously does skew towards helping people be comfortable
> with what they perceive as problems. The picture we paint on lists
> and boards tends to be skewed because we're dealing with problems.
> Just as a dermatologist's office tends to be skewed towards people
> with skin problems, totally ignoring the majority of the population
> who doesn't.
>
> There are Days In the Life collections. Sandra has one. There's one
> at the Unschooling.info boards. But they're fairly skewed too ;-)
> People tend to write about extraordinary days because those fill them
> with a passion to write. People don't write about the days their kids
> spent playing video games for 8 hours (if they're comfortable with
> that); they don't write about the days they spent shopping, coloring,
> managing disagrements; because the thought of taking the time to
> write about them is more likely to fill them with an urge to clean a
> closet or something ;-)
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/829 - Release Date: 6/2/2007 5:26 PM
>
emmy
although i haven't read the whole thread just a note to add
hey just WHAT IF you can prepare the meals from scratch or not & clean TOGETHER and make it a FUN family fair!! yeah they can actually be enjoyed!
we just pulled up the carpet in several rooms and painted the floors. i thought the fun would be in the painting the floors which i figured they would then join in on BUT my kids thought the fun was in scraping & pulling up carpet debris!
emmy
www.cafepress.com/emmytofa
www.emmytofa.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hey just WHAT IF you can prepare the meals from scratch or not & clean TOGETHER and make it a FUN family fair!! yeah they can actually be enjoyed!
we just pulled up the carpet in several rooms and painted the floors. i thought the fun would be in the painting the floors which i figured they would then join in on BUT my kids thought the fun was in scraping & pulling up carpet debris!
emmy
www.cafepress.com/emmytofa
www.emmytofa.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The message I'm getting is that "mess is
evidence of unschooling and order is the evidence of child neglect and a
mom who consistently chooses other things over her children".-=-
Tia, chill.
If you're getting a hostile message, and you were unaware of having
sent one in the first place, maybe you should get a friend to read
your e-mails with you for a while, and read yours before you send
them to make sure you haven't written something to trigger
defensiveness like "supposed unschooling lifestyle."
It's not the medium, it's your word choices.
Please just state your own beliefs (without insulting others, if
possible) and then let the rebuttal go without taking it personally.
I'm writing this now as listowner. Let's keep the tone friendlier
and child-focussed and learning-focussed.
-=-"I think you're wrong "
-=-So do you think I'm lying? That I'm deluded and not seeing it
clearly?
That I don't really understand the unschooling life?-=-
"Wrong" isn't "lying" or deluded, and by referring to "the
unschooling life" you're back on the edge of offensiveness.
-=-It's funny to me, because in the classical/traditional realm, I'm not
valid either. Too much mess, creativity, disorder, flexibilty, children
who speak for themselves... in short, child neglect. And in the
unschooling realm...too much order, strong ideas, selfish choices...in
short, child neglect. Cracks me up. I'm very, very glad I don't try to
put my children in the kinds of boxes adults try to put one another
in.-=-
Write what will help others on the list understand unschooling.
Don't be snarky.
If you're seeing others accusing you of child neglect, that's your
own thoughts speaking.
The purpose of the list is to give people a chance to see what will
help unschooling, not to "be supportive" of each mother's choices.
We're talking theory, and learning, and not such particulars of mom-
need (real or perceived).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
evidence of unschooling and order is the evidence of child neglect and a
mom who consistently chooses other things over her children".-=-
Tia, chill.
If you're getting a hostile message, and you were unaware of having
sent one in the first place, maybe you should get a friend to read
your e-mails with you for a while, and read yours before you send
them to make sure you haven't written something to trigger
defensiveness like "supposed unschooling lifestyle."
It's not the medium, it's your word choices.
Please just state your own beliefs (without insulting others, if
possible) and then let the rebuttal go without taking it personally.
I'm writing this now as listowner. Let's keep the tone friendlier
and child-focussed and learning-focussed.
-=-"I think you're wrong "
-=-So do you think I'm lying? That I'm deluded and not seeing it
clearly?
That I don't really understand the unschooling life?-=-
"Wrong" isn't "lying" or deluded, and by referring to "the
unschooling life" you're back on the edge of offensiveness.
-=-It's funny to me, because in the classical/traditional realm, I'm not
valid either. Too much mess, creativity, disorder, flexibilty, children
who speak for themselves... in short, child neglect. And in the
unschooling realm...too much order, strong ideas, selfish choices...in
short, child neglect. Cracks me up. I'm very, very glad I don't try to
put my children in the kinds of boxes adults try to put one another
in.-=-
Write what will help others on the list understand unschooling.
Don't be snarky.
If you're seeing others accusing you of child neglect, that's your
own thoughts speaking.
The purpose of the list is to give people a chance to see what will
help unschooling, not to "be supportive" of each mother's choices.
We're talking theory, and learning, and not such particulars of mom-
need (real or perceived).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 3, 2007, at 11:17 AM, Tia Graham wrote:
children really CAN do what you're talking about - have a clutter-
free, clean house and cook from scratch three times a day and all
that. I think you're wrong in thinking that, in fact, other people
can do it, just because you can. For example, I almost never had a
time when all three of my little ones were choosing to go off and do
something on their own. And if I did have such a moment, it was short-
lived and I needed the sit-down rest. I almost always had to be
present - I remember once I was on the phone with my mom (those days
the phone was attached by a wire to the wall, remember that? <G>). I
said, "Mom, I really need to go, Roya has been out in the back yard
on her own for five minutes." She said, "She ought to be able to play
in the back yard without you for longer than that." "Maybe she
should," I said, "But I'm not comfortable with it." For good reason -
she was beyond high energy - there was no down time with her, ever.
There was always something, some big plan she was engaged in, and she
really needed my help to be able to safely do whatever she wanted to do.
efficient and skilled at this kind of thing than I ever was or am,
and maybe your kids have always kept themselves busier on their own
than mine did....." Didn't doubt the truth of your own experience,
but I don't think it is reasonable to expect that to be the
experience of others. If it is, they know it, they aren't asking for
help, they're fine, right? When someone writes to the list about
being completely overwhelmed with several young children and feeling
like they can't do everything, what good does it do to tell them, "It
IS possible to do it all - you ought to be keeping your house clean
and cooking three meals a day from scratch and, in fact, doing it
happily and easily while the kids go off and take some pleasant alone-
time of their own just when you happen to need them to do that so
that you can do housework or cook."
The message from your post was that the advice on alternative ways to
deal with and avoid housework and cooking was just to let people feel
less guilty about their failures as cooks and housekeepers. You
implied that the rest of us give unschooling a bad name because of
our slothfulness. I'm not insulted or anything (I'm way past that
stage of needy little ones and my house is nice and neat and clean
and I cook when and what I want), I'm saying that it doesn't help
those who are asking for help to tell them that settling for less
that a clean house and 3 times a day cooking is what gives
unschooling a negative image.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Yes. This my life.No. I think you're wrong that most unschoolers with several young
>
> "I think you're wrong "
>
> So do you think I'm lying? That I'm deluded and not seeing it clearly?
> That I don't really understand the unschooling life?
children really CAN do what you're talking about - have a clutter-
free, clean house and cook from scratch three times a day and all
that. I think you're wrong in thinking that, in fact, other people
can do it, just because you can. For example, I almost never had a
time when all three of my little ones were choosing to go off and do
something on their own. And if I did have such a moment, it was short-
lived and I needed the sit-down rest. I almost always had to be
present - I remember once I was on the phone with my mom (those days
the phone was attached by a wire to the wall, remember that? <G>). I
said, "Mom, I really need to go, Roya has been out in the back yard
on her own for five minutes." She said, "She ought to be able to play
in the back yard without you for longer than that." "Maybe she
should," I said, "But I'm not comfortable with it." For good reason -
she was beyond high energy - there was no down time with her, ever.
There was always something, some big plan she was engaged in, and she
really needed my help to be able to safely do whatever she wanted to do.
>You might want to reread what I really wrote. "You may be far more
> "I'm not saying you are neglecting your kids to do it,
> you may be far more efficient and skilled at this kind of thing that
> I ever was or am, and maybe your kids keep themselves busier on their
> own than mine did, but if I'd spent my time preparing three meals per
> day, from scratch, that would have taken considerable time away from
> what I spent with my little children, for sure."
>
> But you are, aren't you? The message I'm getting is that "mess is
> evidence of unschooling and order is the evidence of child neglect
> and a
> mom who consistently chooses other things over her children".
> Because it
> wasn't your experience, or that of some others, it must not be
> possible
> or valid.
efficient and skilled at this kind of thing than I ever was or am,
and maybe your kids have always kept themselves busier on their own
than mine did....." Didn't doubt the truth of your own experience,
but I don't think it is reasonable to expect that to be the
experience of others. If it is, they know it, they aren't asking for
help, they're fine, right? When someone writes to the list about
being completely overwhelmed with several young children and feeling
like they can't do everything, what good does it do to tell them, "It
IS possible to do it all - you ought to be keeping your house clean
and cooking three meals a day from scratch and, in fact, doing it
happily and easily while the kids go off and take some pleasant alone-
time of their own just when you happen to need them to do that so
that you can do housework or cook."
The message from your post was that the advice on alternative ways to
deal with and avoid housework and cooking was just to let people feel
less guilty about their failures as cooks and housekeepers. You
implied that the rest of us give unschooling a bad name because of
our slothfulness. I'm not insulted or anything (I'm way past that
stage of needy little ones and my house is nice and neat and clean
and I cook when and what I want), I'm saying that it doesn't help
those who are asking for help to tell them that settling for less
that a clean house and 3 times a day cooking is what gives
unschooling a negative image.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
>>People have different kinds of intelligences, ala Howard Gardner. Ithink some kind of space and time "orderliness" might be one of the
so-far undefined ones.<<
Pam, this was a little lightbulb for me. I have met many people who seem to
thrive better with more organized space than I need, and they get their
space that way much more easily than I could. It makes sense that this could
be an "intelligence".
Thanks,
Jacki
Gold Standard
>>Not even new to the list.<<Your first post to this list on May 24, 2007:
"I'm new to the list and am wondering if there is a forum available?"
Less than two weeks is probably still a little new.
It is difficult sometimes to separate ourselves from the responses that are
sparked by our posts, but that is really what needs to happen. Oftentimes,
posters don't even remember who the original poster was (I'm a great one for
that), but the ideas are what we are discussing. If your ideas are being
quoted and responded to, it is the idea sparking the thoughts, not you
personally, nor your life. Most of us don't know each other here, and don't
have personal opinions of each other for the most part, though I have deep
respect for a number of people on this list who share their amazing insight
in such articulate and clear ways.
Try to read and sit with it for a while.
Thanks,
Jacki
Sandra Dodd
-=-. Oftentimes,
posters don't even remember who the original poster was (I'm a great
one for
that), but the ideas are what we are discussing.-=-
Yes, and it's fine that way. It's better that way.
To discuss the ideas and not the people is way better.
-=-Most of us don't know each other here, and don't
have personal opinions of each other for the most part-=-
Some I do know have very clean houses, and others don't, but when I
DO know someone in person, and know her kids and her house, it's that
much worse for me when someone newer, younger, cockier, is snarky to
or about her.
Let's talk about unschooling, not "the unschooling life" or
"unschooling lifestyle."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
posters don't even remember who the original poster was (I'm a great
one for
that), but the ideas are what we are discussing.-=-
Yes, and it's fine that way. It's better that way.
To discuss the ideas and not the people is way better.
-=-Most of us don't know each other here, and don't
have personal opinions of each other for the most part-=-
Some I do know have very clean houses, and others don't, but when I
DO know someone in person, and know her kids and her house, it's that
much worse for me when someone newer, younger, cockier, is snarky to
or about her.
Let's talk about unschooling, not "the unschooling life" or
"unschooling lifestyle."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Graham
"hey just WHAT IF you can prepare the meals from scratch or not & clean
TOGETHER and make it a FUN family fair!! yeah they can actually be enjoyed!
we just pulled up the carpet in several rooms and painted the floors. i
thought the fun would be in the painting the floors which i figured they
would then join in on BUT my kids thought the fun was in scraping &
pulling up carpet debris! "
Beautiful Emmy! We do this a lot together as a family, having gutted 3
houses now and grown gardens for 8 years....working together is part of
our fun and I'm always surprised at what stage of the project each child
enjoys most! :-)
Tia
emmy wrote:
TOGETHER and make it a FUN family fair!! yeah they can actually be enjoyed!
we just pulled up the carpet in several rooms and painted the floors. i
thought the fun would be in the painting the floors which i figured they
would then join in on BUT my kids thought the fun was in scraping &
pulling up carpet debris! "
Beautiful Emmy! We do this a lot together as a family, having gutted 3
houses now and grown gardens for 8 years....working together is part of
our fun and I'm always surprised at what stage of the project each child
enjoys most! :-)
Tia
emmy wrote:
>
> although i haven't read the whole thread just a note to add
>
> hey just WHAT IF you can prepare the meals from scratch or not & clean
> TOGETHER and make it a FUN family fair!! yeah they can actually be
> enjoyed!
>
> we just pulled up the carpet in several rooms and painted the floors.
> i thought the fun would be in the painting the floors which i figured
> they would then join in on BUT my kids thought the fun was in scraping
> & pulling up carpet debris!
>
> emmy
>
> www.cafepress.com/emmytofa
> www.emmytofa.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/829 - Release Date: 6/2/2007 5:26 PM
>
Tia Graham
"I think you're wrong in thinking that, in fact, other people
can do it, just because you can."
Well that explains part of it I guess. I don't think everyone should
live like I do. I don't think most people should live like I do! I have
a hyper energy and get stuff done that others are often tired just
thinking about. My reality though, is that unschooling fasciliates this
in my life. I am proof-positive that one can unschool and keep clutter
down and cook healthy meals. My life often goes against a percieved idea
of unschoolers; it's an idea I hear propogated even by other unschoolers
as /necessity for all/. It is that contrast that triggered my initial
thoughts.
" what good does it do to tell them, "It
IS possible to do it all - you ought to be keeping your house clean
and cooking three meals a day from scratch and, in fact, doing it
happily and easily while the kids go off and take some pleasant alone-
time of their own just when you happen to need them to do that so
that you can do housework or cook."
These aren't my words. It would have to be qualilfied with, "it is
possible for /some/ because it is indeed possible for me, at least right
now." I"m not super woman. I wasn't trying to discourage anyone. I want
to know if I'm alone in the unschooling world or if anyone shares a
similar experience.
"I'm saying that it doesn't help
those who are asking for help to tell them that settling for less
that a clean house and 3 times a day cooking is what gives
unschooling a negative image."
Sigh. This is why I started a new thread. I wasn't wanting to "tell them
that settling for less...etc". I was wanting to discuss a contrasting
thought triggered by the first thread. For example: there was a need and
discussion expressed in one thread. I even contributed some helpful
hints to that thread, knowing all too well the need for a break or a
"down" kind of time to recharge. I know in my life though, that a
converse truth also exists. I wanted to discuss that. I didn't do so in
reply to the tired moms needing helpful suggestions; I started a new
thread.
If any tired mom from last week's thread has felt offended by my desire
to talk about this contrasting idea, I sincerely apologize and ask your
forgiveness.
Tia
Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
can do it, just because you can."
Well that explains part of it I guess. I don't think everyone should
live like I do. I don't think most people should live like I do! I have
a hyper energy and get stuff done that others are often tired just
thinking about. My reality though, is that unschooling fasciliates this
in my life. I am proof-positive that one can unschool and keep clutter
down and cook healthy meals. My life often goes against a percieved idea
of unschoolers; it's an idea I hear propogated even by other unschoolers
as /necessity for all/. It is that contrast that triggered my initial
thoughts.
" what good does it do to tell them, "It
IS possible to do it all - you ought to be keeping your house clean
and cooking three meals a day from scratch and, in fact, doing it
happily and easily while the kids go off and take some pleasant alone-
time of their own just when you happen to need them to do that so
that you can do housework or cook."
These aren't my words. It would have to be qualilfied with, "it is
possible for /some/ because it is indeed possible for me, at least right
now." I"m not super woman. I wasn't trying to discourage anyone. I want
to know if I'm alone in the unschooling world or if anyone shares a
similar experience.
"I'm saying that it doesn't help
those who are asking for help to tell them that settling for less
that a clean house and 3 times a day cooking is what gives
unschooling a negative image."
Sigh. This is why I started a new thread. I wasn't wanting to "tell them
that settling for less...etc". I was wanting to discuss a contrasting
thought triggered by the first thread. For example: there was a need and
discussion expressed in one thread. I even contributed some helpful
hints to that thread, knowing all too well the need for a break or a
"down" kind of time to recharge. I know in my life though, that a
converse truth also exists. I wanted to discuss that. I didn't do so in
reply to the tired moms needing helpful suggestions; I started a new
thread.
If any tired mom from last week's thread has felt offended by my desire
to talk about this contrasting idea, I sincerely apologize and ask your
forgiveness.
Tia
Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 3, 2007, at 11:17 AM, Tia Graham wrote:
>
> > Yes. This my life.
> >
> > "I think you're wrong "
> >
> > So do you think I'm lying? That I'm deluded and not seeing it clearly?
> > That I don't really understand the unschooling life?
>
> No. I think you're wrong that most unschoolers with several young
> children really CAN do what you're talking about - have a clutter-
> free, clean house and cook from scratch three times a day and all
> that. I think you're wrong in thinking that, in fact, other people
> can do it, just because you can. For example, I almost never had a
> time when all three of my little ones were choosing to go off and do
> something on their own. And if I did have such a moment, it was short-
> lived and I needed the sit-down rest. I almost always had to be
> present - I remember once I was on the phone with my mom (those days
> the phone was attached by a wire to the wall, remember that? <G>). I
> said, "Mom, I really need to go, Roya has been out in the back yard
> on her own for five minutes." She said, "She ought to be able to play
> in the back yard without you for longer than that." "Maybe she
> should," I said, "But I'm not comfortable with it." For good reason -
> she was beyond high energy - there was no down time with her, ever.
> There was always something, some big plan she was engaged in, and she
> really needed my help to be able to safely do whatever she wanted to do.
>
> >
> > "I'm not saying you are neglecting your kids to do it,
> > you may be far more efficient and skilled at this kind of thing that
> > I ever was or am, and maybe your kids keep themselves busier on their
> > own than mine did, but if I'd spent my time preparing three meals per
> > day, from scratch, that would have taken considerable time away from
> > what I spent with my little children, for sure."
> >
> > But you are, aren't you? The message I'm getting is that "mess is
> > evidence of unschooling and order is the evidence of child neglect
> > and a
> > mom who consistently chooses other things over her children".
> > Because it
> > wasn't your experience, or that of some others, it must not be
> > possible
> > or valid.
>
> You might want to reread what I really wrote. "You may be far more
> efficient and skilled at this kind of thing than I ever was or am,
> and maybe your kids have always kept themselves busier on their own
> than mine did....." Didn't doubt the truth of your own experience,
> but I don't think it is reasonable to expect that to be the
> experience of others. If it is, they know it, they aren't asking for
> help, they're fine, right? When someone writes to the list about
> being completely overwhelmed with several young children and feeling
> like they can't do everything, what good does it do to tell them, "It
> IS possible to do it all - you ought to be keeping your house clean
> and cooking three meals a day from scratch and, in fact, doing it
> happily and easily while the kids go off and take some pleasant alone-
> time of their own just when you happen to need them to do that so
> that you can do housework or cook."
>
> The message from your post was that the advice on alternative ways to
> deal with and avoid housework and cooking was just to let people feel
> less guilty about their failures as cooks and housekeepers. You
> implied that the rest of us give unschooling a bad name because of
> our slothfulness. I'm not insulted or anything (I'm way past that
> stage of needy little ones and my house is nice and neat and clean
> and I cook when and what I want), I'm saying that it doesn't help
> those who are asking for help to tell them that settling for less
> that a clean house and 3 times a day cooking is what gives
> unschooling a negative image.
>
> -pam
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/829 - Release Date: 6/2/2007 5:26 PM
>
Tia Graham
Sorry Jacki. I was a member a few years ago. I am "newly new" I guess
one could say...I rejoined a week ago for a variety of reasons.
Tia
Gold Standard wrote:
one could say...I rejoined a week ago for a variety of reasons.
Tia
Gold Standard wrote:
>
> >>Not even new to the list.<<
>
> Your first post to this list on May 24, 2007:
>
>
> "I'm new to the list and am wondering if there is a forum available?"
>
> Less than two weeks is probably still a little new.
>
> It is difficult sometimes to separate ourselves from the responses
> that are
> sparked by our posts, but that is really what needs to happen. Oftentimes,
> posters don't even remember who the original poster was (I'm a great
> one for
> that), but the ideas are what we are discussing. If your ideas are being
> quoted and responded to, it is the idea sparking the thoughts, not you
> personally, nor your life. Most of us don't know each other here, and
> don't
> have personal opinions of each other for the most part, though I have deep
> respect for a number of people on this list who share their amazing
> insight
> in such articulate and clear ways.
>
> Try to read and sit with it for a while.
> Thanks,
> Jacki
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/829 - Release Date: 6/2/2007 5:26 PM
>
Tia Graham
" Let's talk about unschooling, not "the unschooling life" or
"unschooling lifestyle."
That seems like a nuance to me but I'm willing to examine it.
One great way to cook scratch meals 3x a day and not neglect your
children is to engage them about their favorite foods. Our kids help
grow the food, prepare the food (my oldest two beg to cook!). We have
gone through nutritional books together. We shop at a co-op together and
the kids have gotten to know the staff. We have what might be thought of
a "dinner" food for breakfast often, or vise versa, because that's what
the kids want to eat. It's a holistic approach towards eating.
One great way to have a decluttered home and not neglect your children
is to talk to them about what kind of space they want for their own.
What does it look like? How do we make it that way? Sit and sort with
them, rather than "tell" them to clean it up. Go the home store together
to get the supplies; ask which parts (some, none, or all!) of the
process do they want to participate in (for instance, one of my children
is totally present in the design process but absent during demolition.
Another enjoys pulling out staples and knocking down walls but hates to
paint).
Another thing we've done to organize books to a certain extent is to
visit used book stores. The environment always stimulates the kids'
minds to come home and see what they are no longer using to trade for
new ones! Their dad and I would probably just pile them up and build
more shelves :-). But our kids are more pragmatic...if they can get
something new for something they no longer use, they'll freely sort and
organize to make the trade.
We've moved several times in the last few years. Keeping an eye on
layout is an important way to fascilitate a rich learning environment
that allows for both together and alone spaces. Our kitchen and eating
room is one big space and our library is just in the next room, through
a wide doorway. We chose this over the very closed "boxy" other house
we were looking at when house shopping. The bedrooms are upstairs, which
has turned out to make a nice rhythm in the house.
In our next house, we are considering a separate room for clothing and
laundry...a sort of communal closet. It would eliminate the chore of
putting clothes away and also clothing clutter in the bedrooms, freeing
them up for better sleep and private desk/studio space, something our
oldest two children want very much. Does anyone else do this in their home?
Tia
Sandra Dodd wrote:
"unschooling lifestyle."
That seems like a nuance to me but I'm willing to examine it.
One great way to cook scratch meals 3x a day and not neglect your
children is to engage them about their favorite foods. Our kids help
grow the food, prepare the food (my oldest two beg to cook!). We have
gone through nutritional books together. We shop at a co-op together and
the kids have gotten to know the staff. We have what might be thought of
a "dinner" food for breakfast often, or vise versa, because that's what
the kids want to eat. It's a holistic approach towards eating.
One great way to have a decluttered home and not neglect your children
is to talk to them about what kind of space they want for their own.
What does it look like? How do we make it that way? Sit and sort with
them, rather than "tell" them to clean it up. Go the home store together
to get the supplies; ask which parts (some, none, or all!) of the
process do they want to participate in (for instance, one of my children
is totally present in the design process but absent during demolition.
Another enjoys pulling out staples and knocking down walls but hates to
paint).
Another thing we've done to organize books to a certain extent is to
visit used book stores. The environment always stimulates the kids'
minds to come home and see what they are no longer using to trade for
new ones! Their dad and I would probably just pile them up and build
more shelves :-). But our kids are more pragmatic...if they can get
something new for something they no longer use, they'll freely sort and
organize to make the trade.
We've moved several times in the last few years. Keeping an eye on
layout is an important way to fascilitate a rich learning environment
that allows for both together and alone spaces. Our kitchen and eating
room is one big space and our library is just in the next room, through
a wide doorway. We chose this over the very closed "boxy" other house
we were looking at when house shopping. The bedrooms are upstairs, which
has turned out to make a nice rhythm in the house.
In our next house, we are considering a separate room for clothing and
laundry...a sort of communal closet. It would eliminate the chore of
putting clothes away and also clothing clutter in the bedrooms, freeing
them up for better sleep and private desk/studio space, something our
oldest two children want very much. Does anyone else do this in their home?
Tia
Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> -=-. Oftentimes,
> posters don't even remember who the original poster was (I'm a great
> one for
> that), but the ideas are what we are discussing.-=-
>
> Yes, and it's fine that way. It's better that way.
>
> To discuss the ideas and not the people is way better.
>
> -=-Most of us don't know each other here, and don't
> have personal opinions of each other for the most part-=-
>
> Some I do know have very clean houses, and others don't, but when I
> DO know someone in person, and know her kids and her house, it's that
> much worse for me when someone newer, younger, cockier, is snarky to
> or about her.
>
> Let's talk about unschooling, not "the unschooling life" or
> "unschooling lifestyle."
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/829 - Release Date: 6/2/2007 5:26 PM
>
Christy Mahoney
But many of us do not have introvert children. Some children do not
want to be alone ever. Some children are extremely high energy or
need a lot of assistance when playing with siblings or other kids.
If it's working out for you, that's wonderful. But it just isn't
possible for some families to be engaged to the level that the
children need and also do a lot of cooking and cleaning. Family
dynamics and personalities make a huge difference.
-Christy
want to be alone ever. Some children are extremely high energy or
need a lot of assistance when playing with siblings or other kids.
If it's working out for you, that's wonderful. But it just isn't
possible for some families to be engaged to the level that the
children need and also do a lot of cooking and cleaning. Family
dynamics and personalities make a huge difference.
-Christy
> Right. Or benefit. In our home, we have a lot of together time.Then, we
> separate for awhile so the introverts among us can have their downtime,
> and so each person gets time to "think". Mom cleans. Our oldesttime I
> rollerblades. I choose to clean and cook and it does take away
> could be playing Monopoly....only that's a negative way to look atit
> because my kids WANT some time away from Mom to do their ownthing. And
> Mom needs (yes, genuine need) some time to clean the slate of thehome
> so that creativity can begin anew. In our home at least, the mostthe
> creative times are when the art supplies can be actually found,
> paper is in good supply, there are not dishes all over the workspace,
> and everyone is well fed. It is another form of fascilitation, not
> deprivation.