Maisha Khalfani

Greetings, my name is Maisha and I'm more of a lurker/reader than poster. I have a question and I thought I would ask it here as this list will certainly spark some good thoughts for me about this issue.
I was wondering how to counter the idea/notion that we need to conform to the society we live in in order to be successful. I know that I struggle with that message: the idea that we must fit a mold or be a certain way or learn certain things to be "okay". How do I counter that notion? No one has asked me about that yet, but I just like to know what I would say if someone said.....
"So you want your children to be happy and I get that. But how do they learn to understand cultural norms? Don't you think a certain amount of conformity is necessary to keep a cohesive society or family? You can't just have everyone doing their own thing. That would lead to chaos!"
These are thoughts that were running through my head as I left my gift-daughter's high school. She's a senior and has chosen to finish out her time in school (by the way....they lock the doors to the classrooms after the bell rings! And the teachers are NOT to let late students in. It's just getting ridiculous).
Okay....I'm looking forward to the responses and the challenges to my own ways of thinking.......


Namaste
Maisha
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com
"The period of greatest gain in knowledge and experience is the most difficult period in one's life" ~ The Dalai Lama








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magenta_mum

Hi, Maisha

For a start, conformity and freedom aren't absolutes, and what looks
like conformity to one, will be another's picture of freedom, and vice
versa, maybe, depending on the individual or family's starting place.
Those ideas, conformity and freedom, exist on a spectrum.

Maisha Khalfani <maitai373@...> wrote:
>>
No one has asked me about that yet, but I just like to know what I
would say if someone said..... "So you want your children to be happy
and I get that. But how do they learn to understand cultural norms?
>Don't you think a certain amount of conformity is necessary to keep a
cohesive society or family? You can't just have everyone doing their
own thing.
>>

Well, I don't think it's possible to isolate any child from the
cultural norms that apply regionally, nationally or in one's own home
and neighbourhood or family. Do you? Great awareness of cultural norms
is part of radical unschooling, to me. How much or how little each of
us, and each of our children chooses to conform will depend on how
much each one cares to and is comfortable fitting in, perhaps.

There are often consequences for extreme non-conformism. While through
the broader culture it seems fairly easy for young people to become
disconnected to the point of lost, this is not common in radically
unschooling families because of the close, open, thoughtful
communication and ways of being that are fostered.

Do you have a specific worry? Or just a creeping, low-level sort of
wondering. It's a bit hard to speak effectively to very broad
'what-ifs'. Maybe this is about what might be the contrast between the
track it seems your older daughter is on and what seems the
tracklessness of your other child(ren)?


>
That would lead to chaos!"
>

If you're seeing chaos in your own life, you may not be living RU
'right' just yet, or the lense through which you are looking might be
in need of a little adjustment, if I might be forgiven for stating
those things so boldly. ;)

By the way, I came across a link to your blog a wee while ago, and
enjoyed reading about your family.

Jo R
http://www.freewebs.com/having-a-cow

Sandra Dodd

-=-I was wondering how to counter the idea/notion that we need to
conform to the society we live in in order to be successful. I know
that I struggle with that message: the idea that we must fit a mold
or be a certain way or learn certain things to be "okay". How do I
counter that notion?-=-

http://sandradodd.com/balance

There needs to be a balance. People can't reject ALL of society.
There IS a level of "okay" that people should want to achieve.

It's more important to examine and understand a notion than to simply
counter it.

http://sandradodd.com/rules

Reading some of what people have written about principles instead of
rules might give you good ideas for responses.

Sandra

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Gold Standard

>>I was wondering how to counter the idea/notion that we need to conform to
the society we live in in order to be successful.<<

Whose idea? Do you have a specific example of this in your life?

The society that we (my family) live in doesn't have a lot of conformity
needs for us to meet to feel "successful". But this may be because we don't
look on the outside to see what we should be doing. And maybe our personal
views of success are different from what you're talking about. I could look
at all kinds of things around us and think "this is the norm and is what we
need to do to be normal" (wear a suit and tie, mow the lawn every Tuesday at
4pm, make a certain amount of money). But we just don't look at that stuff.
We live our lives in ways that make us happy, and not surprisingly, we live
pretty cohesively and peacefully without chaos. And this is with each of us
choosing what we do each day. No one is running amok...in fact I think
running amok is more likely to happen with enforced conformity...it's a
barrier to relaxed happiness and something to rebel against.

>>How do I counter that notion?<<

Counter it to whom? Yourself or someone else? It seems maybe you're asking
what to say if someone asks about your educational choices for your
children?

>>No one has asked me about that yet, but I just like to know what I would
say if someone said.....
>>"So you want your children to be happy and I get that. But how do they
learn to understand cultural norms? Don't you think >>a certain amount of
conformity is necessary to keep a cohesive society or family? You can't just
have everyone doing their >>own thing. That would lead to chaos!"<<

What do you think about these ideas? What are your answers to these
questions?

>>These are thoughts that were running through my head as I left my
gift-daughter's high school.<<

What's a gift-daughter? Sorry if it's obvious, I've just not heard the term
before.

Thanks,
Jacki

Maisha Khalfani

What's a gift-daughter? Sorry if it's obvious, I've just not heard the term
before.

Thanks,
Jacki
****************************************************************

It's the term that I use to describe my stepdaughter. I've known her and raised her since she was 6, so "step-daughter" doesn't feel right. I consider her a gift that her bio mom gave me, hence, my "gift-daughter". It also helps her to feel special, and helps Safiya (my own bio daughter) to feel special. Each has their own special place.





Namaste
Maisha
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com
"The period of greatest gain in knowledge and experience is the most difficult period in one's life" ~ The Dalai Lama








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Maisha Khalfani

<<Do you have a specific worry? Or just a creeping, low-level sort of
wondering. It's a bit hard to speak effectively to very broad
'what-ifs'. Maybe this is about what might be the contrast between the
track it seems your older daughter is on and what seems the
tracklessness of your other child(ren)?>>


Maybe that was it. Maybe it was the 'school' in me popping out. My children are so free and for an instant I was wondering if their freedom would lead down the path of not being able to deal in the mainstream society (yes, Sandra, I'll be going back to re-read your site - but if you could send the specific links to the "what if" and such it would save time <g>)

Namaste
Maisha
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com
"The period of greatest gain in knowledge and experience is the most difficult period in one's life" ~ The Dalai Lama








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Maisha Khalfani

http://sandradodd.com/balance

Thank you Sandra. That article is very much what I was talking about, and it is the struggle that I am dealing with. I've been reading/working on unschooling for almost a year now, and it still feels totally foreign to me....especially RU. To my dh (sometimes) and other family members it can look like the kids are 'running wild' and are chaotic; as though there is no *discipline* - that's a huge issue - what discipline looks like, what it actually is, etc.


Namaste
Maisha
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com
"The period of greatest gain in knowledge and experience is the most difficult period in one's life" ~ The Dalai Lama








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Maisha Khalfani

Gold Standard <jacki@...> wrote: >>I was wondering how to counter the idea/notion that we need to conform to
the society we live in in order to be successful.<<

~~Whose idea? Do you have a specific example of this in your life?~~
I suppose I'm looking at my family and *their* ideas about conformity, standards, how people should/shouldn't behave.

~~The society that we (my family) live in doesn't have a lot of conformity
needs for us to meet to feel "successful". But this may be because we don't
look on the outside to see what we should be doing. And maybe our personal
views of success are different from what you're talking about. ~~
Yes, I'm sure that's it as well: the views of "success". I think, at least I hope, I'm pretty comfortable with my children finding their own view of success. I know I still cringe when my mother (very well meaning, of course) tells me that I "could have" been anything I wanted to be. As though *choosing* to be with my children was *not* a choice. I mean, if I could be anything wouldn't that include being a full time mom as well?

>>How do I counter that notion?<<

~~Counter it to whom? Yourself or someone else? It seems maybe you're asking what to say if someone asks about your educational choices for your
children?~~
Yes, I probably am. My family doesn't know that we unschool. I think they'll just have to figure that out on their own.


>>No one has asked me about that yet, but I just like to know what I would
say if someone said....."So you want your children to be happy and I get that. But how do they learn to understand cultural norms? Don't you think a certain amount of conformity is necessary to keep a cohesive society or family? You can't just have everyone doing their >>own thing. That would lead to chaos!"<<

~~What do you think about these ideas? What are your answers to these
questions?~~
Hmmm.....I think my answer might sound like "They learn cultural norms by observing the culture around them, and with help and explanations from me and their father and other trusted adults. Of course some adherance to societal laws is necessary, and my children are learning about laws as they grow. We are blessed to live in a country where one can create a community of like-minded individuals wherever they go. There is no need to follow the dominant culture if one feels that it is not in keeping with the principles they choose to live by. As for everyone 'doing their own thing', I'm not sure how that is a bad thing, as long as what is being done is not harmful to oneself or others. "
Maybe something along those lines...

Thanks for the thoughts Jacki






Namaste
Maisha
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com
"The period of greatest gain in knowledge and experience is the most difficult period in one's life" ~ The Dalai Lama








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Sandra Dodd

-=-To my dh (sometimes) and other family members it can look like the
kids are 'running wild' and are chaotic; as though there is no
*discipline* - that's a huge issue - what discipline looks like, what
it actually is, etc.-=-

I don't think the concept "discipline" can be kept. On one level it
means simply being a student, a disciple. On another level it means
behaving well on pain of punishment.

It might be better replaced by "learning good judgment" or "living by
principles."

If they're running wild, though, maybe they need more interaction
with adults, to learn when and where's a good place to be still and
just talk normally, and when's a good time to run wild. With
statements like "act your age" and such, adults seem to suggest that
a person should act the same way all the time, every where. But even
with the stodgiest adults, they'll act differently at a funeral than
at a football game, and speak differently to their moms than to their
drinking buddies.

Learning when and where what is appropriate is part of judgment and
principles.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-(yes, Sandra, I'll be going back to re-read your site - but if you
could send the specific links to the "what if" and such it would save
time <g>)-=-

You're in a hurry?

http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
That has a list of lots of topics.

http://sandradodd.com/search
If you make a topic up you wish was there, you might find some stuff
about it.

http://sandradodd.com/help
All the beginning stuff collected in one place.


I went to the search page and put in "what if"

http://sandradodd.com/joyce/deschooling
What if they aren't interested in learning?

sandradodd.com/t/whatif
What if little kids watch TV all day? What can happen?


sandradodd.com/partners
Partners, not Adversaries

sandradodd.com/chore/relationship
Chores: Building a Relationship? Or Tearing it Down?

sandradodd.com/playing
Playing

sandradodd.com/wishlist
Wishlists for Unschoolers



Oh man, there are ten more pages. Some of the links were SCA
things. Even ignoring those, there's enough to read.

Sandra

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