french or no french
Sandra Dodd
This came by e-mail. I'm posting it here without (I hope)
identifying the author:
Dear Sandra
Thank you for your inspiring website. My eldest child is 4 and I
don't want
to put him in school. I too was also a teacher and read The Lives of
Children, How Children Learn, Summerhill and so on. So no dilemmas
there...
but I do have one problem I wondered if you had thoughts on.
My background is French-speaking, and I've instinctively always spoken
French to my son. Now, however, he's rejecting it in favour of English,
understandably, since we live in [large city where people speak
English] and all his friends speak English.
It's getting to a point where he talks to his dad (in English) and stays
pretty silent with me. At best, I speak to him in French, he replies in
English... but he's getting less and less able to understand what I say.
Holidaying in France made no difference.
Would your instinct be to persist with the French or forget it and
put our
relationship first so we have good chats in the language he prefers
right
now?
My sister says she gave up on the bilingual thing for similar reasons
with
her children, but she regrets it because now her children only know one
language.
I'd be interested to have your reaction to this problem.
====================================================================
my response:
==================================================================
-=-Would your instinct be to persist with the French or forget it and
put our
relationship first so we have good chats in the language he prefers
right
now?-=-
Relationship first, no question.
The purpose of language is communication, and if your communication
is failing...
-=-My sister says she gave up on the bilingual thing for similar
reasons with
her children, but she regrets it because now her children only know one
language.-=-
If her goal was to produce bilingual children without consideration
for their happiness or their personal relationship, then it would
have made sense.
If you know what you want, then decisionmaking becomes easy.
If your child is more important than your vision of your child, life
becomes easier. <g>
I'm going to take your question the the response to the
AlwaysLearning list but I won't identify you. I much prefer group
exposure to one-on-one.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
http://sandradodd.com/choice
Those might help. Maybe you're feeling you "have to" speak French
because you can, or that he "has to" be bilingual because the
opportunity is there. It might help for you to cast the thinking
more in terms of "choose to," and I hope you won't choose to maintain
a separation for the sake of an ideal.
-=-Re: french or no french-=-
Those aren't the only two choices. :-)
Sandra
identifying the author:
Dear Sandra
Thank you for your inspiring website. My eldest child is 4 and I
don't want
to put him in school. I too was also a teacher and read The Lives of
Children, How Children Learn, Summerhill and so on. So no dilemmas
there...
but I do have one problem I wondered if you had thoughts on.
My background is French-speaking, and I've instinctively always spoken
French to my son. Now, however, he's rejecting it in favour of English,
understandably, since we live in [large city where people speak
English] and all his friends speak English.
It's getting to a point where he talks to his dad (in English) and stays
pretty silent with me. At best, I speak to him in French, he replies in
English... but he's getting less and less able to understand what I say.
Holidaying in France made no difference.
Would your instinct be to persist with the French or forget it and
put our
relationship first so we have good chats in the language he prefers
right
now?
My sister says she gave up on the bilingual thing for similar reasons
with
her children, but she regrets it because now her children only know one
language.
I'd be interested to have your reaction to this problem.
====================================================================
my response:
==================================================================
-=-Would your instinct be to persist with the French or forget it and
put our
relationship first so we have good chats in the language he prefers
right
now?-=-
Relationship first, no question.
The purpose of language is communication, and if your communication
is failing...
-=-My sister says she gave up on the bilingual thing for similar
reasons with
her children, but she regrets it because now her children only know one
language.-=-
If her goal was to produce bilingual children without consideration
for their happiness or their personal relationship, then it would
have made sense.
If you know what you want, then decisionmaking becomes easy.
If your child is more important than your vision of your child, life
becomes easier. <g>
I'm going to take your question the the response to the
AlwaysLearning list but I won't identify you. I much prefer group
exposure to one-on-one.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
http://sandradodd.com/choice
Those might help. Maybe you're feeling you "have to" speak French
because you can, or that he "has to" be bilingual because the
opportunity is there. It might help for you to cast the thinking
more in terms of "choose to," and I hope you won't choose to maintain
a separation for the sake of an ideal.
-=-Re: french or no french-=-
Those aren't the only two choices. :-)
Sandra
Sandrewmama
> It's getting to a point where he talks to his dad (in English) andMy SIL is fluent in Spanish but English is her native language. When
> stays
> pretty silent with me. At best, I speak to him in French, he
> replies in
> English... but he's getting less and less able to understand what I
> say.
my son was
born 15.5 yrs ago I asked her to consider speaking only Spanish to
him so that he could be
exposed and maybe learn some Spanish via his relationship with her.
She agreed
to my request but that plan quickly went by the wayside. She
explained to me that
she thinks and feels in English and her strong emotions for her
nephew could not
be expressed easily in Spanish. I understood.
Fast-forward 15 yrs. She has two children of her own now and I asked
her awhile
back if she speaks Spanish with her babies much. She said they play
with
speaking Spanish but she can't relate well as their mother using
Spanish.
Maybe the boy, who is immersed in English, thinks and feels in
English and
this is why he has difficulty relating to his French-speaking-only
mother? I agree
with your advice. How sad it would be to have a barrier in the
relationship that
could be avoided if the mother is able to relate to her son in his
native language.
Chris in IA
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IAUnschoolers/
http://zamunzo.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
raja02077272118
Your responses are surprisingly clearcut. I thought I might get
compromising advice like, try reading to him in French or putting
French radio on or finding French friends he can be with. The truth is
that I would be sad to give up the French as I put effort and goodwill
into it so I have an emotional attachment to the idea of my son
speaking French. But perhaps I just have to let that go.
compromising advice like, try reading to him in French or putting
French radio on or finding French friends he can be with. The truth is
that I would be sad to give up the French as I put effort and goodwill
into it so I have an emotional attachment to the idea of my son
speaking French. But perhaps I just have to let that go.
Sandra Dodd
"Dear Sandra, thank you for such a prompt response, and I'll
undoubtedly join the group. Interesting that you had such a clear cut
reaction as everyone around me's knee-jerk reaction is to push the
French because 'languages are so important'.
Good to hear the other side."
(by e-mail)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
undoubtedly join the group. Interesting that you had such a clear cut
reaction as everyone around me's knee-jerk reaction is to push the
French because 'languages are so important'.
Good to hear the other side."
(by e-mail)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The truth is
that I would be sad to give up the French as I put effort and goodwill
into it so I have an emotional attachment to the idea of my son
speaking French. But perhaps I just have to let that go.
-=-
"Give up the French" seems too strong a statement.
Another too-strong way to look at it might be the you would be
requiring him to speak French in order to speak to you, which makes
French more important to you than he is. Also maybe a little like
withholding food from an animal being trained to do tricks, so he'll
be hungry enough for the rewards. Some parents do that with their
kids and food. "It will spoil your appetite" mostly means "You won't
be hungry enough to eat all the food I tell you to eat, the way I
want you to eat it..."
Perhaps if instead of thinking of it as "just let go," it can be to
tone down. Maybe after he trusts you lots, and likes you lots, you
can go spend more time in France, or some other French-speaking
place. Maybe he will love it because you love it, because the
relationship between you will be so good.
There are unschooling families in France with small children.
There's a new group forming up in Paris. There are a couple of more
established families near Switzerland. Maybe you could go for an
overnight or weekend visit and hanging around those kids he might
speak French.
There are links here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingotherwise
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that I would be sad to give up the French as I put effort and goodwill
into it so I have an emotional attachment to the idea of my son
speaking French. But perhaps I just have to let that go.
-=-
"Give up the French" seems too strong a statement.
Another too-strong way to look at it might be the you would be
requiring him to speak French in order to speak to you, which makes
French more important to you than he is. Also maybe a little like
withholding food from an animal being trained to do tricks, so he'll
be hungry enough for the rewards. Some parents do that with their
kids and food. "It will spoil your appetite" mostly means "You won't
be hungry enough to eat all the food I tell you to eat, the way I
want you to eat it..."
Perhaps if instead of thinking of it as "just let go," it can be to
tone down. Maybe after he trusts you lots, and likes you lots, you
can go spend more time in France, or some other French-speaking
place. Maybe he will love it because you love it, because the
relationship between you will be so good.
There are unschooling families in France with small children.
There's a new group forming up in Paris. There are a couple of more
established families near Switzerland. Maybe you could go for an
overnight or weekend visit and hanging around those kids he might
speak French.
There are links here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingotherwise
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
Sandra Dodd wrote:
thanks! ~diana :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If your child is more important than your vision of your child, life*****This needs to be said again and again... it's a great mantra!
> becomes easier. <g>
>
thanks! ~diana :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "raja02077272118"
<eileentracy@...> wrote:
books, movies, for instance, then by all means listen, read, watch.
There's nothing wrong with persuing your own passions, as long as
you aren't foisting them off on your family. If they want to be
involved now, great. If their interest is sparked by your passion
several years from now, great. If they have different interests and
passions, even vastly different, great.
You can fill your own cup without pouring one for someone else, as
it were.
have hopes and aspirations *for* our kids. Its harder to look past
those dreamy mental images to see the real people we live with.
---Meredith
<eileentracy@...> wrote:
>>The truth isIt isn't necessary to "give up" french - if you enjoy french music,
> that I would be sad to give up the French
books, movies, for instance, then by all means listen, read, watch.
There's nothing wrong with persuing your own passions, as long as
you aren't foisting them off on your family. If they want to be
involved now, great. If their interest is sparked by your passion
several years from now, great. If they have different interests and
passions, even vastly different, great.
You can fill your own cup without pouring one for someone else, as
it were.
>I have an emotional attachment to the idea of my sonI think that's an important insight on your part. Its so easy to
> speaking French. But perhaps I just have to let that go.
have hopes and aspirations *for* our kids. Its harder to look past
those dreamy mental images to see the real people we live with.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
Sylvie Martin, who has translated several of my articles into French,
wrote to say that I overstated the existence of unschooling in France
or Switzerland. There are families working on attachment parenting,
but one unschooling family is having legal trouble, and others are
compromising one way or another, the children are pre-school-age, or
they're controlling of TV, computer, food, etc.
So I should rephrase.
There are families in France corresponding in French about these
kinds of issues but there aren't yet any experienced, successful
unschooling families to visit or look to there.
Sylvie is very focussed on respect for children and choices, but has
contact with people who are unwilling to allow children choices about
everyday things.
We have the same kinds of people in the U.S. who are unschooling
BUT... no plastic toys, no TV, no internet, no character t-shirts or
cartoon sheets, no commercial anything, no sugar, no violent toys, no
competitive or contact sports (I don't now anyone who forbids ALL of
those, but know some who avoid some or several)...
TV seems to be the biggest point of disagreement.
Sorry to have painted a rosier picture than I should have.
Still, I think some will get there before long. Lots are reading
about this, and as more unschoolers grow to adulthood, the objections
will be fewer.
Sandra
wrote to say that I overstated the existence of unschooling in France
or Switzerland. There are families working on attachment parenting,
but one unschooling family is having legal trouble, and others are
compromising one way or another, the children are pre-school-age, or
they're controlling of TV, computer, food, etc.
So I should rephrase.
There are families in France corresponding in French about these
kinds of issues but there aren't yet any experienced, successful
unschooling families to visit or look to there.
Sylvie is very focussed on respect for children and choices, but has
contact with people who are unwilling to allow children choices about
everyday things.
We have the same kinds of people in the U.S. who are unschooling
BUT... no plastic toys, no TV, no internet, no character t-shirts or
cartoon sheets, no commercial anything, no sugar, no violent toys, no
competitive or contact sports (I don't now anyone who forbids ALL of
those, but know some who avoid some or several)...
TV seems to be the biggest point of disagreement.
Sorry to have painted a rosier picture than I should have.
Still, I think some will get there before long. Lots are reading
about this, and as more unschoolers grow to adulthood, the objections
will be fewer.
Sandra
Paula Sjogerman
On Sep 17, 2006, at 11:02 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
about how my fantastically articulate, thoughtful son learned from TV
- and not in that PBSy way either. From watching hours and hours and
hours of a wide variety of shows - from Last Comic Standing to Animal
Planet to The Simpsons.
He's usually doing something else at the same time and, of course, he
does many other things - but still, I'd say that TV is his number 2
source of learning, after conversation.
In the meantime, I hope even this teaser will reassure somebody out
there that TV is not evil, but can be a source for plenty.
Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> TV seems to be the biggest point of disagreement.Someday, when he lets me write about him, I will write a long article
about how my fantastically articulate, thoughtful son learned from TV
- and not in that PBSy way either. From watching hours and hours and
hours of a wide variety of shows - from Last Comic Standing to Animal
Planet to The Simpsons.
He's usually doing something else at the same time and, of course, he
does many other things - but still, I'd say that TV is his number 2
source of learning, after conversation.
In the meantime, I hope even this teaser will reassure somebody out
there that TV is not evil, but can be a source for plenty.
Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Someday, when he lets me write about him, I will write a long article
about how my fantastically articulate, thoughtful son learned from TV
- and not in that PBSy way either. From watching hours and hours and
hours of a wide variety of shows - from Last Comic Standing to Animal
Planet to The Simpsons.-=-
Maybe tell him that while he's waiting to feel comfortable about
being written about, many other children are UNcomfortable because
they haven't read the right turn of phrase, the right testimonial,
that will let them loosen up about how they treat their children.
If everyone waited until their kids were grown to share what's going
on in their own houses, there would be many fewer unschoolers!
Probably my kids were used to their lives being shared because of La
Leche League. When you're nursing one and dealing with an older one
in front of everyone who came to learn, it can't HELP but be talked
about and seen, and the gradual day-by-day change from that to
unschooling, which still involved several of the same kids, never
presented a time to discuss whether it was okay for me to share.
That was the result and cost of being where all those other kids
were--the other parents DID know details of everyday life.
For me, saying "Holly watches the Simpsons" isn't like discussing
biological functions between consenting adults, or that involve
flushing afterwards.
When Marty had his Big Porn Adventure, I talked to him about whether
I could share that because it could be something people would razz
him about, but he knew there were other kids who might have gotten
in huge trouble, and that it could help them for me to describe how
it had been handled here. He agreed without hesitation, because
other sharings in the past had never hurt him but had definitely
helped other people.
Then again, there are personalities and prior agreements or
conditioning. Someone having lived a private life might not want to
share all of a sudden, but my kids never lived privately from the
beginning.
Still, when two people share an experience that's not illegal,
immoral or of a personal sexual nature, where it will not risk a
marriage and everyone has been honest (maybe that's qualified
enough)... then it doesn't belong to just one of them.
My experiences with my children are MY experiences as much as theirs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about how my fantastically articulate, thoughtful son learned from TV
- and not in that PBSy way either. From watching hours and hours and
hours of a wide variety of shows - from Last Comic Standing to Animal
Planet to The Simpsons.-=-
Maybe tell him that while he's waiting to feel comfortable about
being written about, many other children are UNcomfortable because
they haven't read the right turn of phrase, the right testimonial,
that will let them loosen up about how they treat their children.
If everyone waited until their kids were grown to share what's going
on in their own houses, there would be many fewer unschoolers!
Probably my kids were used to their lives being shared because of La
Leche League. When you're nursing one and dealing with an older one
in front of everyone who came to learn, it can't HELP but be talked
about and seen, and the gradual day-by-day change from that to
unschooling, which still involved several of the same kids, never
presented a time to discuss whether it was okay for me to share.
That was the result and cost of being where all those other kids
were--the other parents DID know details of everyday life.
For me, saying "Holly watches the Simpsons" isn't like discussing
biological functions between consenting adults, or that involve
flushing afterwards.
When Marty had his Big Porn Adventure, I talked to him about whether
I could share that because it could be something people would razz
him about, but he knew there were other kids who might have gotten
in huge trouble, and that it could help them for me to describe how
it had been handled here. He agreed without hesitation, because
other sharings in the past had never hurt him but had definitely
helped other people.
Then again, there are personalities and prior agreements or
conditioning. Someone having lived a private life might not want to
share all of a sudden, but my kids never lived privately from the
beginning.
Still, when two people share an experience that's not illegal,
immoral or of a personal sexual nature, where it will not risk a
marriage and everyone has been honest (maybe that's qualified
enough)... then it doesn't belong to just one of them.
My experiences with my children are MY experiences as much as theirs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My experiences with my children are MY experiences as much as
theirs.-=-
Quoting and replying to myself... Sorry. After I hit send, though,
I remembered years back when someone from a little philosophy/
movement called TCS, Taking Children Seriously, came to
unschooling.com to discuss it but told us all we were disrespectful
to our children because we were telling stories about them.
So she was more respectful to her children, because she totally
refused to even say whether she had any, but only to discuss the
philosophies ideals and rules (or however they wanted to describe the
beliefs).
So lots of us were telling stories of how situations turned out when
children's needs and ideas and wishes were treated respectfully, and
she declared it "not respect."
We couldn't being to say "Oh, cool, then let's do what YOU do because
your children are so much more... wait... how old are your children?"
Wouldn't say. <g>
Heck, I just take my children and leave them at a hotel where there
are a few hundred other unschoolers and then I go home and sleep in
my own bed. Or at least I did a few nights last week. Other people
can share experiences about my kids without asking them in advance too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
theirs.-=-
Quoting and replying to myself... Sorry. After I hit send, though,
I remembered years back when someone from a little philosophy/
movement called TCS, Taking Children Seriously, came to
unschooling.com to discuss it but told us all we were disrespectful
to our children because we were telling stories about them.
So she was more respectful to her children, because she totally
refused to even say whether she had any, but only to discuss the
philosophies ideals and rules (or however they wanted to describe the
beliefs).
So lots of us were telling stories of how situations turned out when
children's needs and ideas and wishes were treated respectfully, and
she declared it "not respect."
We couldn't being to say "Oh, cool, then let's do what YOU do because
your children are so much more... wait... how old are your children?"
Wouldn't say. <g>
Heck, I just take my children and leave them at a hotel where there
are a few hundred other unschoolers and then I go home and sleep in
my own bed. Or at least I did a few nights last week. Other people
can share experiences about my kids without asking them in advance too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paula Sjogerman
On Sep 17, 2006, at 11:47 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
Maybe tell him that while he's waiting to feel comfortable about
being written about, many other children are UNcomfortable because
they haven't read the right turn of phrase, the right testimonial,
that will let them loosen up about how they treat their children.>>
Done and done.
> Then again, there are personalities and prior agreements
That's where we're at. I've told him that sometimes I just have to
say some things, but that I would try to respect his feelings as much
as possible. It's an ongoing dialogue here (like most things) and I
think I see him moving into new, less self-conscious, territory these
days, so maybe the time will come sooner than I thought.
Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvie Martin
Sorry to have painted a rosier picture than I should have.
Still, I think some will get there before long. Lots are reading
about this, and as more unschoolers grow to adulthood, the objections
will be fewer.
******************************* Thank you Sandra. I'm not very optimist this time... :-( Sometimes, I feel like it will never happen.. The french mentality is special with the children.. And the government declared war to homeschoolers.. So, you can imagine if they know about unschooling... :-(
How did it start for all of you ? At the beginning ? Hom many were you ? three or four ? Or lots of people very soon ?
Sylvie (Eliott le Magicien 97 - Tom le Héros 99 - Lilou la fée 02)
http://www.louves-online.com
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/grandir_ensemble_grandir_libres
http://www.yourtes-tipis.com
http://www.sculpture-rod.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Still, I think some will get there before long. Lots are reading
about this, and as more unschoolers grow to adulthood, the objections
will be fewer.
******************************* Thank you Sandra. I'm not very optimist this time... :-( Sometimes, I feel like it will never happen.. The french mentality is special with the children.. And the government declared war to homeschoolers.. So, you can imagine if they know about unschooling... :-(
How did it start for all of you ? At the beginning ? Hom many were you ? three or four ? Or lots of people very soon ?
Sylvie (Eliott le Magicien 97 - Tom le Héros 99 - Lilou la fée 02)
http://www.louves-online.com
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/grandir_ensemble_grandir_libres
http://www.yourtes-tipis.com
http://www.sculpture-rod.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-How did it start for all of you ? At the beginning ? Hom many were
you ? three or four ? Or lots of people very soon ? -=-
At first it was a few hippie-commune families, or isolated families.
There was always one homeschooling curriculum advertised, Calvert,
since I can remember, in the 1950's and always after. Americans
living abroad used it, or kids who were bedridden I guess. Sick kids.
In the 1970's John Holt started a newsletter for home schooling
families who were fans of his writing, so they could communicate and
he could share his new ideas, and that was Growing Without
Schooling. It became more like a magazine, but it was never fancy
with advertisements, though John Holt started selling things through
that, so if it was an ad, it was an ad for the office where it was
produced, and they were selling John Holt's books, and a few other
books, games?, pamphlets, a beginning piano course (different from
traditional piano books). Some of those things are sold here now:
http://www.fun-books.com/authors/John_Holt.htm
So for the liberal/intellectual side of it, John Holt and his
writings were the source and inspiration for lots of unschoolers.
His ideas were reinforced and expanded by contact with people he
knew and worked with in New Mexico and Colorado, though, who were
doing alternative school stuff in the late 60's and maybe early 70's.
So separately, politically, lots of Christian churches started
becoming more and more angry that public schools weren't pushing a
Christian agenda, and their split with public schools was about the
schools teaching too much--too much about equality of races and
sexes, too much sex education, too much history of evolution, too
many reading assignments in which the characters weren't behaving as
they wanted their children, as Christians, to behave. If they
couldn't control the schools, they would pull their children out. I
don't know the details of why they started using a curriculum at home
instead of making private schools, but they did.
Sometimes a whole church would pressure their people to homeschool,
with the same curriculum. Someone three houses up from me when my
kids were little went to just such a church in Albuquerque. The men
were pressed to declare that their wive would homeschool, with one
certain curriculum. Undoubtedly, someone was getting a free
curriculum for his own family by putting that pressure. Then the
other moms would help each other out with homeschooling, sometimes
like a co-op, and they would have science fairs and geography
competitions and spelling bees. I say "would have" because I'm still
thinking about Cindy's family, in the early 1990's. It's still
happening.
If a mom didn't want to homeschool her kids, she was told she needed
to be obedient to her husband and to God.
Those folks were also told that Christians had invented homeschooling
because God wanted them to, so there was odd hostility and curiosity
about "secular homeschoolers." I was asked more than once why I
would homeschool if I didn't have to, and why a non-Christian would
homeschool.
There were LOTS of them, and that kept the government from picking on
the much lesser number of secular homeschoolers and unschoolers.
The split remains, with lots of families in the middle.
The sin of the unschoolers is no structure, no tests, no competitive
spirit, no help to add to statistics that "prove homeschoolers do
better."
The sin of the other extreme is that their science is Bible-based,
watered down not-really science. Their history is re-written the way
they wish it had happened, they don't teach "multi-culturalism" in
states where it's a required part of the curriculum. They
concentrate on math facts, reading and writing. They teach to the
test hoping that high scores will keep government agencies from
looking any more closely at their overall program.
If John Holt was the rallying point for liberal secular types, the
HSLDA is the rallying point for the Christians and conservatives.
It's a group of lawyers making a LOT of money off of putting fear
into homeschooling families and then taking protection money from them.
We're 35 years or so into it here. It's not smooth. This list is
smooth. <g> The overall world of homeschooling in the U.S. is pretty
crazy!
I try to ignore all that back story and keep my own children's lives
busy and happy and safe. It doesn't mean I don't know all that and
appreciate it. Growing Without Schooling Magazine used to be the
biggest support in my world when Kirby was five and six and seven
years old, when one of my support families moved a thousand miles
away and another moved thirty miles away and our babysitting co-op
broke up partly over that and partly over a sexual misconduct
incident among the kids. About that time, e-mail came along and
there were user groups (vaguely like message boards today), and
homeschoolers could contact other homeschoolers any day of the week
to discuss things and help each other. Soon there were proper
message boards and within a few years, web pages.
Anyone reading this could get more information about homeschooling
in the next hour from your computer than anyone could have gotten in
a year when I started.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
you ? three or four ? Or lots of people very soon ? -=-
At first it was a few hippie-commune families, or isolated families.
There was always one homeschooling curriculum advertised, Calvert,
since I can remember, in the 1950's and always after. Americans
living abroad used it, or kids who were bedridden I guess. Sick kids.
In the 1970's John Holt started a newsletter for home schooling
families who were fans of his writing, so they could communicate and
he could share his new ideas, and that was Growing Without
Schooling. It became more like a magazine, but it was never fancy
with advertisements, though John Holt started selling things through
that, so if it was an ad, it was an ad for the office where it was
produced, and they were selling John Holt's books, and a few other
books, games?, pamphlets, a beginning piano course (different from
traditional piano books). Some of those things are sold here now:
http://www.fun-books.com/authors/John_Holt.htm
So for the liberal/intellectual side of it, John Holt and his
writings were the source and inspiration for lots of unschoolers.
His ideas were reinforced and expanded by contact with people he
knew and worked with in New Mexico and Colorado, though, who were
doing alternative school stuff in the late 60's and maybe early 70's.
So separately, politically, lots of Christian churches started
becoming more and more angry that public schools weren't pushing a
Christian agenda, and their split with public schools was about the
schools teaching too much--too much about equality of races and
sexes, too much sex education, too much history of evolution, too
many reading assignments in which the characters weren't behaving as
they wanted their children, as Christians, to behave. If they
couldn't control the schools, they would pull their children out. I
don't know the details of why they started using a curriculum at home
instead of making private schools, but they did.
Sometimes a whole church would pressure their people to homeschool,
with the same curriculum. Someone three houses up from me when my
kids were little went to just such a church in Albuquerque. The men
were pressed to declare that their wive would homeschool, with one
certain curriculum. Undoubtedly, someone was getting a free
curriculum for his own family by putting that pressure. Then the
other moms would help each other out with homeschooling, sometimes
like a co-op, and they would have science fairs and geography
competitions and spelling bees. I say "would have" because I'm still
thinking about Cindy's family, in the early 1990's. It's still
happening.
If a mom didn't want to homeschool her kids, she was told she needed
to be obedient to her husband and to God.
Those folks were also told that Christians had invented homeschooling
because God wanted them to, so there was odd hostility and curiosity
about "secular homeschoolers." I was asked more than once why I
would homeschool if I didn't have to, and why a non-Christian would
homeschool.
There were LOTS of them, and that kept the government from picking on
the much lesser number of secular homeschoolers and unschoolers.
The split remains, with lots of families in the middle.
The sin of the unschoolers is no structure, no tests, no competitive
spirit, no help to add to statistics that "prove homeschoolers do
better."
The sin of the other extreme is that their science is Bible-based,
watered down not-really science. Their history is re-written the way
they wish it had happened, they don't teach "multi-culturalism" in
states where it's a required part of the curriculum. They
concentrate on math facts, reading and writing. They teach to the
test hoping that high scores will keep government agencies from
looking any more closely at their overall program.
If John Holt was the rallying point for liberal secular types, the
HSLDA is the rallying point for the Christians and conservatives.
It's a group of lawyers making a LOT of money off of putting fear
into homeschooling families and then taking protection money from them.
We're 35 years or so into it here. It's not smooth. This list is
smooth. <g> The overall world of homeschooling in the U.S. is pretty
crazy!
I try to ignore all that back story and keep my own children's lives
busy and happy and safe. It doesn't mean I don't know all that and
appreciate it. Growing Without Schooling Magazine used to be the
biggest support in my world when Kirby was five and six and seven
years old, when one of my support families moved a thousand miles
away and another moved thirty miles away and our babysitting co-op
broke up partly over that and partly over a sexual misconduct
incident among the kids. About that time, e-mail came along and
there were user groups (vaguely like message boards today), and
homeschoolers could contact other homeschoolers any day of the week
to discuss things and help each other. Soon there were proper
message boards and within a few years, web pages.
Anyone reading this could get more information about homeschooling
in the next hour from your computer than anyone could have gotten in
a year when I started.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
We gave up the Farsi for this reason. My kids were not talking to
their dad, talking to me, instead. We thought it was interfering with
their relationship and he decided to go ahead and speak English to
them in order to have better conversations. I don't know why the
bilingual household didn't work well for us, don't know if we gave up
too soon. The kids do regret it, now, but they take their
relationship with their dad for granted and can't imagine the
concerns we had, back then. My husband's cousin's kids speak three
languages fluently - Farsi, English, and Chinese (actually two
Chinese languages). They didn't ever seem to have a problem switching
around, they never resisted, they knew when to speak each language.
They are not as articulate or expressive in any language as my kids
are in English, though. Also, my oldest is not particular talented at
learning languages - seems not to be one of her particular
intelligence strengths. If Roxana had been the first, probably she'd
have learned both languages effortlessly - she loves learning
languages, now, and learns easily.
So - not much advice, some commiseration with your dilemma, and
offering the possibility that "it depends on the child," is the only
answer the rest of us might be able to offer.
-pam
their dad, talking to me, instead. We thought it was interfering with
their relationship and he decided to go ahead and speak English to
them in order to have better conversations. I don't know why the
bilingual household didn't work well for us, don't know if we gave up
too soon. The kids do regret it, now, but they take their
relationship with their dad for granted and can't imagine the
concerns we had, back then. My husband's cousin's kids speak three
languages fluently - Farsi, English, and Chinese (actually two
Chinese languages). They didn't ever seem to have a problem switching
around, they never resisted, they knew when to speak each language.
They are not as articulate or expressive in any language as my kids
are in English, though. Also, my oldest is not particular talented at
learning languages - seems not to be one of her particular
intelligence strengths. If Roxana had been the first, probably she'd
have learned both languages effortlessly - she loves learning
languages, now, and learns easily.
So - not much advice, some commiseration with your dilemma, and
offering the possibility that "it depends on the child," is the only
answer the rest of us might be able to offer.
-pam
On Sep 16, 2006, at 8:57 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> It's getting to a point where he talks to his dad (in English) and
> stays
> pretty silent with me. At best, I speak to him in French, he
> replies in
> English... but he's getting less and less able to understand what I
> say.
> Holidaying in France made no difference.
> Would your instinct be to persist with the French or forget it and
> put our
> relationship first so we have good chats in the language he prefers
> right
> now?
> My sister says she gave up on the bilingual thing for similar reasons
> with
> her children, but she regrets it because now her children only know
> one
> language.
> I'd be interested to have your reaction to this problem.
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
C Johnson
"We have the same kinds of people in the U.S. who are unschooling
BUT... no plastic toys, no TV, no internet, no character t-shirts or
cartoon sheets, no commercial anything, no sugar, no violent toys, no
competitive or contact sports (I don't now anyone who forbids ALL of
those, but know some who avoid some or several)..."
I used to be that way with my children, especially with healthy food, but I have learned so much from this particular list that I stopped that kind of control at least a year ago. Now my children get sweets and other kinds of food whenever they want and it hasn't been a problem. In fact, during the holidays I eat more of the candy than they do. We have also come a long way with TV and video games. Just today this silly commercial came on about some kind of "educational" video game system where the parents tell their children they don't have to do chores and can play the games. My 6 yro son and I started laughing and I told him all video games teach us things. He told me he learns a lot when he plays them. I am so thankful to the unschoolers on this list who share how much video games and TV enrich their lives and share their experiences.
Now going back to lurking,
Chrissie
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Sylvie Martin, who has translated several of my articles into French,
wrote to say that I overstated the existence of unschooling in France
or Switzerland. There are families working on attachment parenting,
but one unschooling family is having legal trouble, and others are
compromising one way or another, the children are pre-school-age, or
they're controlling of TV, computer, food, etc.
So I should rephrase.
There are families in France corresponding in French about these
kinds of issues but there aren't yet any experienced, successful
unschooling families to visit or look to there.
Sylvie is very focussed on respect for children and choices, but has
contact with people who are unwilling to allow children choices about
everyday things.
We have the same kinds of people in the U.S. who are unschooling
BUT... no plastic toys, no TV, no internet, no character t-shirts or
cartoon sheets, no commercial anything, no sugar, no violent toys, no
competitive or contact sports (I don't now anyone who forbids ALL of
those, but know some who avoid some or several)...
TV seems to be the biggest point of disagreement.
Sorry to have painted a rosier picture than I should have.
Still, I think some will get there before long. Lots are reading
about this, and as more unschoolers grow to adulthood, the objections
will be fewer.
Sandra
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given." Gandalf
---------------------------------
All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BUT... no plastic toys, no TV, no internet, no character t-shirts or
cartoon sheets, no commercial anything, no sugar, no violent toys, no
competitive or contact sports (I don't now anyone who forbids ALL of
those, but know some who avoid some or several)..."
I used to be that way with my children, especially with healthy food, but I have learned so much from this particular list that I stopped that kind of control at least a year ago. Now my children get sweets and other kinds of food whenever they want and it hasn't been a problem. In fact, during the holidays I eat more of the candy than they do. We have also come a long way with TV and video games. Just today this silly commercial came on about some kind of "educational" video game system where the parents tell their children they don't have to do chores and can play the games. My 6 yro son and I started laughing and I told him all video games teach us things. He told me he learns a lot when he plays them. I am so thankful to the unschoolers on this list who share how much video games and TV enrich their lives and share their experiences.
Now going back to lurking,
Chrissie
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Sylvie Martin, who has translated several of my articles into French,
wrote to say that I overstated the existence of unschooling in France
or Switzerland. There are families working on attachment parenting,
but one unschooling family is having legal trouble, and others are
compromising one way or another, the children are pre-school-age, or
they're controlling of TV, computer, food, etc.
So I should rephrase.
There are families in France corresponding in French about these
kinds of issues but there aren't yet any experienced, successful
unschooling families to visit or look to there.
Sylvie is very focussed on respect for children and choices, but has
contact with people who are unwilling to allow children choices about
everyday things.
We have the same kinds of people in the U.S. who are unschooling
BUT... no plastic toys, no TV, no internet, no character t-shirts or
cartoon sheets, no commercial anything, no sugar, no violent toys, no
competitive or contact sports (I don't now anyone who forbids ALL of
those, but know some who avoid some or several)...
TV seems to be the biggest point of disagreement.
Sorry to have painted a rosier picture than I should have.
Still, I think some will get there before long. Lots are reading
about this, and as more unschoolers grow to adulthood, the objections
will be fewer.
Sandra
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given." Gandalf
---------------------------------
All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I used to be that way with my children, especially with healthy
food, but I have learned so much from this particular list that I
stopped that kind of control at least a year ago. Now my children get
sweets and other kinds of food whenever they want and it hasn't been
a problem. -=-
We just got back from CiCi's pizza, an all-you-can eat pizza place
with salad and desserts.
Kirby didn't go. Now that he works at Dion's, he can't bear CiCi's.
(I'm joking; he had already eaten.)
They have a kind of chocolate pizza for dessert and I got two pieces
because Holly had perked up when I said I was going to get one. I
took a couple of bites and declared it not too good. Holly asked if
she could have the rest (her piece and half of mine). Then she
looked at it and said she didn't really want it after all.
She had been eating spinach pizza, mostly.
I asked Marty if he wanted another soda when I got up to get that,
and he said no thanks. He didn't go back for more pizza after his
first plate either.
They eat better than Keith and I, that's for sure, and better than
most people I know.
Without a reason to be reactionary, to rebel, or to prove they CAN
get their own way and make their own decisions (which many
mainstream kids do by making horribly BAD decisions out of spite),
they simply decide for simple personal and sensible reasons, whether
they want another bite or not.
HOW COOL.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
food, but I have learned so much from this particular list that I
stopped that kind of control at least a year ago. Now my children get
sweets and other kinds of food whenever they want and it hasn't been
a problem. -=-
We just got back from CiCi's pizza, an all-you-can eat pizza place
with salad and desserts.
Kirby didn't go. Now that he works at Dion's, he can't bear CiCi's.
(I'm joking; he had already eaten.)
They have a kind of chocolate pizza for dessert and I got two pieces
because Holly had perked up when I said I was going to get one. I
took a couple of bites and declared it not too good. Holly asked if
she could have the rest (her piece and half of mine). Then she
looked at it and said she didn't really want it after all.
She had been eating spinach pizza, mostly.
I asked Marty if he wanted another soda when I got up to get that,
and he said no thanks. He didn't go back for more pizza after his
first plate either.
They eat better than Keith and I, that's for sure, and better than
most people I know.
Without a reason to be reactionary, to rebel, or to prove they CAN
get their own way and make their own decisions (which many
mainstream kids do by making horribly BAD decisions out of spite),
they simply decide for simple personal and sensible reasons, whether
they want another bite or not.
HOW COOL.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Helen Cain
At 07:47 AM 9/17/06, raja02077272118 wrote:
not the only choices. Those are the extremes.
Absolutely the relationship with your son is most important. If he
barely communicates with you, then developing closer communication
with him by speaking English, is the priority. Letting go of wanting
him to grow up perfectly bilingual -- or even speaking French "fluently", yes.
But is he negative about French, or is it just that he finds it too
difficult to talk to you in French? If he's negative about French
language and all things French, then a break from such things may
help you to develop your relationship with him so that he trusts you
to keep his needs at the forefront.
Surely you would not be *letting go* of all things French? If it is
your native language, then surely there is some "frenchness" in your
life. Do you use French in any situations, other than interacting
with your son? Speak to your family in French? Sing in French? listen
to French radio or watch French films because *you* want to, not to
set an example for your son, or because you think you 'should' for his sake.
When my children were small, I wanted them to speak Dutch. It's my
second language, the only one I speak fluently, and there are all
these "advantages" to children growing up bilingual.. I enjoyed it
for the first 2 years or so. My daughter Nicola spoke more Dutch than
English. She knew who to speak Dutch to (me) and who to speak English
to, and I so loved watching the development of the two languages.
Then I got to the point where I realised *I* was avoiding speaking to
*her*, because of the effort involved in formulating what I wanted to
say. Not good. We moved to using some Dutch and some English. Dutch
in the car, very often.
Until my son Felix was about 3, and started reacting very negatively
to me speaking in a language other than English, presumably because
he did not understand it well.
Dutch as a means of communication between me and my children went by
the wayside. My interest in Dutch did not. I still read Dutch books,
sing to myself in Dutch, talk about what I find fascinating about
Dutch, stream Dutch radio when I am on the computer, cook Dutch
speculaas and boterkoek, celebrate Sinterklaas on December 5th etc.
My daughter Nicola is now 9. Recently she has started asking me to
talk to her in Dutch, to tell her how to say something in Dutch,
wanting to learn it well enough for it to be our "secret language".
She *doesn't* speak it anywhere near fluently, or understand me when
I speak to her in normal conversational Dutch. But she is interested,
knows Dutch expresses some ideas differently to English, can
pronounce it well, and wants to know more. Where it ends up, who
knows. We'll follow her interest as far as it goes.
It's not all or nothing. It seems to me that as a native speaker you
would have more "Frenchness" in your life, than I have "dutchness" in
mine. And unless the very idea of anything French is negative for
your son, there is no need to give that up, or to assume that your
son will never want to know more French than he does now. But pursue
French if *you* want to, for your own sake, not for your son's.
Cheers
Helen in Australia
>Your responses are surprisingly clearcut. I thought I might getSomewhere along the line Sandra said that 'french or no french' are
>compromising advice like, try reading to him in French or putting
>French radio on or finding French friends he can be with. The truth is
>that I would be sad to give up the French as I put effort and goodwill
>into it so I have an emotional attachment to the idea of my son
>speaking French. But perhaps I just have to let that go.
not the only choices. Those are the extremes.
Absolutely the relationship with your son is most important. If he
barely communicates with you, then developing closer communication
with him by speaking English, is the priority. Letting go of wanting
him to grow up perfectly bilingual -- or even speaking French "fluently", yes.
But is he negative about French, or is it just that he finds it too
difficult to talk to you in French? If he's negative about French
language and all things French, then a break from such things may
help you to develop your relationship with him so that he trusts you
to keep his needs at the forefront.
Surely you would not be *letting go* of all things French? If it is
your native language, then surely there is some "frenchness" in your
life. Do you use French in any situations, other than interacting
with your son? Speak to your family in French? Sing in French? listen
to French radio or watch French films because *you* want to, not to
set an example for your son, or because you think you 'should' for his sake.
When my children were small, I wanted them to speak Dutch. It's my
second language, the only one I speak fluently, and there are all
these "advantages" to children growing up bilingual.. I enjoyed it
for the first 2 years or so. My daughter Nicola spoke more Dutch than
English. She knew who to speak Dutch to (me) and who to speak English
to, and I so loved watching the development of the two languages.
Then I got to the point where I realised *I* was avoiding speaking to
*her*, because of the effort involved in formulating what I wanted to
say. Not good. We moved to using some Dutch and some English. Dutch
in the car, very often.
Until my son Felix was about 3, and started reacting very negatively
to me speaking in a language other than English, presumably because
he did not understand it well.
Dutch as a means of communication between me and my children went by
the wayside. My interest in Dutch did not. I still read Dutch books,
sing to myself in Dutch, talk about what I find fascinating about
Dutch, stream Dutch radio when I am on the computer, cook Dutch
speculaas and boterkoek, celebrate Sinterklaas on December 5th etc.
My daughter Nicola is now 9. Recently she has started asking me to
talk to her in Dutch, to tell her how to say something in Dutch,
wanting to learn it well enough for it to be our "secret language".
She *doesn't* speak it anywhere near fluently, or understand me when
I speak to her in normal conversational Dutch. But she is interested,
knows Dutch expresses some ideas differently to English, can
pronounce it well, and wants to know more. Where it ends up, who
knows. We'll follow her interest as far as it goes.
It's not all or nothing. It seems to me that as a native speaker you
would have more "Frenchness" in your life, than I have "dutchness" in
mine. And unless the very idea of anything French is negative for
your son, there is no need to give that up, or to assume that your
son will never want to know more French than he does now. But pursue
French if *you* want to, for your own sake, not for your son's.
Cheers
Helen in Australia
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvie Martin
Thank you Sandra for this detailed story of the begginning.
You had John Holt, in England they had Neill.. We have no one.. No one in France. All our french society is organised against children.
The freedom is only a word, a concept, in fashion. Lots of people here like to say they are unschooling, because de freedom is so beautiful, bla, bla.. Lots of people read Neill "oh, he was wonderful !" bla bla.. But that's all.. Nothing more than words.
When I speak about TV, it's a general outcry !
Some of the people I know say they are unschooling, but no TV, no free food, sometimes they restrict the reading time.. If they have tv, they decide what the children will watch.. And I feel a little depressed sometimes :-(
When you discovered unschooling, this life, did it take a long time before you meet other people with the same feelings, the same understanding of unschooling ? It seems you're lot of people now, all around the country, and when I read those unschooling lists, it seems to me like there are unschoolers everywhere, even if it's few in some places, there are unschoolers everywhere.
Do you think it's because of the discussion lists ?
Sylvie (Eliott le Magicien 97 - Tom le Héros 99 - Lilou la fée 02)
http://www.louves-online.com
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/grandir_ensemble_grandir_libres
http://www.yourtes-tipis.com
http://www.sculpture-rod.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You had John Holt, in England they had Neill.. We have no one.. No one in France. All our french society is organised against children.
The freedom is only a word, a concept, in fashion. Lots of people here like to say they are unschooling, because de freedom is so beautiful, bla, bla.. Lots of people read Neill "oh, he was wonderful !" bla bla.. But that's all.. Nothing more than words.
When I speak about TV, it's a general outcry !
Some of the people I know say they are unschooling, but no TV, no free food, sometimes they restrict the reading time.. If they have tv, they decide what the children will watch.. And I feel a little depressed sometimes :-(
When you discovered unschooling, this life, did it take a long time before you meet other people with the same feelings, the same understanding of unschooling ? It seems you're lot of people now, all around the country, and when I read those unschooling lists, it seems to me like there are unschoolers everywhere, even if it's few in some places, there are unschoolers everywhere.
Do you think it's because of the discussion lists ?
Sylvie (Eliott le Magicien 97 - Tom le Héros 99 - Lilou la fée 02)
http://www.louves-online.com
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/grandir_ensemble_grandir_libres
http://www.yourtes-tipis.com
http://www.sculpture-rod.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-When you discovered unschooling, this life, did it take a long
time before you meet other people with the same feelings, the same
understanding of unschooling ?-=-
I knew two families before, but one did restrict TV, at first. Then
they just badmouthed and belittled it. Yet their children watched it
at our house (lots, too much, and my kids had to ask them PLEASE come
out and play). Still their youngest comes over here to watch DVD
series shows with my kids (Buffy, Firefly).
-=- It seems you're lot of people now, all around the country, and
when I read those unschooling lists, it seems to me like there are
unschoolers everywhere, even if it's few in some places, there are
unschoolers everywhere.
-=-Do you think it's because of the discussion lists ? -=-
Yes. And message boards.
I think it's because of the internet.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
time before you meet other people with the same feelings, the same
understanding of unschooling ?-=-
I knew two families before, but one did restrict TV, at first. Then
they just badmouthed and belittled it. Yet their children watched it
at our house (lots, too much, and my kids had to ask them PLEASE come
out and play). Still their youngest comes over here to watch DVD
series shows with my kids (Buffy, Firefly).
-=- It seems you're lot of people now, all around the country, and
when I read those unschooling lists, it seems to me like there are
unschoolers everywhere, even if it's few in some places, there are
unschoolers everywhere.
-=-Do you think it's because of the discussion lists ? -=-
Yes. And message boards.
I think it's because of the internet.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-, it seems to me like there are unschoolers everywhere, even if
it's few in some places, there are unschoolers everywhere.
-=-Do you think it's because of the discussion lists ? -=
I have a second thought about why.
Some people unschool because they wanted to use structure and found
that it was causing unhappiness in their families. Being convinced
that school was not an option, they look for family-enriching
options first.
Unschooling is enriching.
So if, in France, Christian start homeschooling and earn people the
right to do that, maybe unschooling can follow on that. Maybe not,
depending how laws are written and interpreted, but it's possible.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it's few in some places, there are unschoolers everywhere.
-=-Do you think it's because of the discussion lists ? -=
I have a second thought about why.
Some people unschool because they wanted to use structure and found
that it was causing unhappiness in their families. Being convinced
that school was not an option, they look for family-enriching
options first.
Unschooling is enriching.
So if, in France, Christian start homeschooling and earn people the
right to do that, maybe unschooling can follow on that. Maybe not,
depending how laws are written and interpreted, but it's possible.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
So if, in France, Christians start homeschooling and earn people the
right to do that, maybe unschooling can follow on that. Maybe not,
depending how laws are written and interpreted, but it's possible..___
.
My understanding (which is limited) of the French problem with homeschooling is that if the Christians started doing it homeschooling would be doomed to failure. There is a real sense that homeschooling is a cult issue in France. The law states (from what I can quickly find) that parents can homeschool if they do so for religious reasons. But because of some law (I can't find the specific one, it came at the same time as the About-Picard Law) homeschooling has to be very clearly not done for "cultish" religious reasons. And cults tend to include evangelical groups within the French definition. It seems to me that it is the evangelicals that have moved homeschooling into the mainstream in the U.S.(it is less so in the UK, where it seems to have been less about religious freedom than about personal choice). Or at least pushed the numbers up enough to form HSLDA and Patrick Henry (unaccredited, no hand holding, certainly no kissing) college. And it may help to have public awareness be such that people see it as a viable alternative even if they aren't Christians for them to choose not only to homeschool but to also unschool.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
right to do that, maybe unschooling can follow on that. Maybe not,
depending how laws are written and interpreted, but it's possible..___
.
My understanding (which is limited) of the French problem with homeschooling is that if the Christians started doing it homeschooling would be doomed to failure. There is a real sense that homeschooling is a cult issue in France. The law states (from what I can quickly find) that parents can homeschool if they do so for religious reasons. But because of some law (I can't find the specific one, it came at the same time as the About-Picard Law) homeschooling has to be very clearly not done for "cultish" religious reasons. And cults tend to include evangelical groups within the French definition. It seems to me that it is the evangelicals that have moved homeschooling into the mainstream in the U.S.(it is less so in the UK, where it seems to have been less about religious freedom than about personal choice). Or at least pushed the numbers up enough to form HSLDA and Patrick Henry (unaccredited, no hand holding, certainly no kissing) college. And it may help to have public awareness be such that people see it as a viable alternative even if they aren't Christians for them to choose not only to homeschool but to also unschool.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-And it may help to have public awareness be such that people see
it as a viable alternative even if they aren't Christians for them to
choose not only to homeschool but to also unschool. -=-
My BIG problem with people who want to say "We don't homeschool, we
UNschool" is that contrary to some comment in People Magazine,
unschooling is NOT "legal in all 50 states." Homeschooling is legal
in all 50 states, with different definitions in each state.
Unschooling is a way to homeschool.
Nobody does anyone a favor by trying to twist it otherwise.
Unschooling is a way to apply the kinds of open-classroom research
and practice of the 60's, which was already described by Holt, and
Neill, and if a family understands that well enough to describe it in
their paperwork, and SAY "we're using alternative 'open classroom'
methods" then that's one thing.
If someone wants to say "I don't make them do anything," or "No,
we're not homeschooling," then they are asking for trouble, and
trouble can range all the way to a court order saying "Put your
children in school" or to removal of the children from the home.
There was some case (homeschooling, not unschooling I think) years
back where a family didn't want to what... report? Test?
Something. So the went along with jail and separation from their
children over THAT.
For me, being with my children is first. If I had to put them in
school to continue to live with them, I'd do it. But I don't have
to. I can go along with laws where I live (or choose judiciously not
to [oooh... freudian use of "judicious]), but to flaunt my beliefs in
the face of a social worker or state official would be irresponsible
and CRUEL to my children.
If people want to make a big political play, wait until your own
children are too old to be removed from the home, or get your
childless school-wounded activist friends to do it.
Some people don't want to do the work to really READ things Holt
actually wrote, and to totally and fully and internally understand
WHY learning works. They want to just kind of ride the coattails of
people they see in peripheral vision and say, "Well they're not in
trouble, so I'll do some vague watered down version of it and we
won't be in trouble either."
If I were to be brought into court, I could talk a lot about natural
learning.
If someone whose participation in discussions consists of things
like "I think bringing up science is manipulative so I won't do it."
or "I think strewing is stupid, and you can't make me" is brought to
court, what will SHE say? "Well Sandra's doing it."???
Maybe part of the oddity (this might should be on the unschooling as
process topic; I'm assuming everyone on this list is reading every
word of every topic <g>) is that in much of everyday life, one
becomes a thing by signing up for a group and attending a meeting.
In is in. It does not work that way with unschooling.
One can become a girl scout or a member of the ladies' auxiliary of
some church or club or start going to AA, and say "I am a girl scout,
a member of the altar society, and I go to AA meetings."
With unschooling, one isn't an unschooler until unschooling is
happening. Some have written on a forum or a list for over a year
and still hasn't taken the kids out of school. There's no membership
card, or dues, and joining a list doesn't make one an unschooler.
Wanting to unschool doesn't make one an unschooler.
Lately I've seen three or four arguments (e-mail today, not on the
list, and some on unschooling.info) that it's possible for the mom to
be unschooling even if the dad doesn't agree. It's not possible for
that to last very long or be healthy or not lead to divorce. If the
mom can't even convince the dad, she'll lose like a dog in court.
And speaking of court, if the dad isn't convinced and the mom
continues anyway, that can lead to divorce which can lead to court-
ordered school.
Priorities.
People need to know what their priorities are.
If staying with kids at home is a priority, an intact marriage is
important (or whatever supports a non-married mom).
With divorce you get court orders or signed compromise agreements,
and custody problems.
With divorce you also might eventually get the new girlfriend or the
step mom. You might get the new boyfriend or the step dad. If TWO
people can't agree on how your kids should be treated, how will three
or four agree? They will not.
I could say more. Probably will.<g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it as a viable alternative even if they aren't Christians for them to
choose not only to homeschool but to also unschool. -=-
My BIG problem with people who want to say "We don't homeschool, we
UNschool" is that contrary to some comment in People Magazine,
unschooling is NOT "legal in all 50 states." Homeschooling is legal
in all 50 states, with different definitions in each state.
Unschooling is a way to homeschool.
Nobody does anyone a favor by trying to twist it otherwise.
Unschooling is a way to apply the kinds of open-classroom research
and practice of the 60's, which was already described by Holt, and
Neill, and if a family understands that well enough to describe it in
their paperwork, and SAY "we're using alternative 'open classroom'
methods" then that's one thing.
If someone wants to say "I don't make them do anything," or "No,
we're not homeschooling," then they are asking for trouble, and
trouble can range all the way to a court order saying "Put your
children in school" or to removal of the children from the home.
There was some case (homeschooling, not unschooling I think) years
back where a family didn't want to what... report? Test?
Something. So the went along with jail and separation from their
children over THAT.
For me, being with my children is first. If I had to put them in
school to continue to live with them, I'd do it. But I don't have
to. I can go along with laws where I live (or choose judiciously not
to [oooh... freudian use of "judicious]), but to flaunt my beliefs in
the face of a social worker or state official would be irresponsible
and CRUEL to my children.
If people want to make a big political play, wait until your own
children are too old to be removed from the home, or get your
childless school-wounded activist friends to do it.
Some people don't want to do the work to really READ things Holt
actually wrote, and to totally and fully and internally understand
WHY learning works. They want to just kind of ride the coattails of
people they see in peripheral vision and say, "Well they're not in
trouble, so I'll do some vague watered down version of it and we
won't be in trouble either."
If I were to be brought into court, I could talk a lot about natural
learning.
If someone whose participation in discussions consists of things
like "I think bringing up science is manipulative so I won't do it."
or "I think strewing is stupid, and you can't make me" is brought to
court, what will SHE say? "Well Sandra's doing it."???
Maybe part of the oddity (this might should be on the unschooling as
process topic; I'm assuming everyone on this list is reading every
word of every topic <g>) is that in much of everyday life, one
becomes a thing by signing up for a group and attending a meeting.
In is in. It does not work that way with unschooling.
One can become a girl scout or a member of the ladies' auxiliary of
some church or club or start going to AA, and say "I am a girl scout,
a member of the altar society, and I go to AA meetings."
With unschooling, one isn't an unschooler until unschooling is
happening. Some have written on a forum or a list for over a year
and still hasn't taken the kids out of school. There's no membership
card, or dues, and joining a list doesn't make one an unschooler.
Wanting to unschool doesn't make one an unschooler.
Lately I've seen three or four arguments (e-mail today, not on the
list, and some on unschooling.info) that it's possible for the mom to
be unschooling even if the dad doesn't agree. It's not possible for
that to last very long or be healthy or not lead to divorce. If the
mom can't even convince the dad, she'll lose like a dog in court.
And speaking of court, if the dad isn't convinced and the mom
continues anyway, that can lead to divorce which can lead to court-
ordered school.
Priorities.
People need to know what their priorities are.
If staying with kids at home is a priority, an intact marriage is
important (or whatever supports a non-married mom).
With divorce you get court orders or signed compromise agreements,
and custody problems.
With divorce you also might eventually get the new girlfriend or the
step mom. You might get the new boyfriend or the step dad. If TWO
people can't agree on how your kids should be treated, how will three
or four agree? They will not.
I could say more. Probably will.<g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]