Nicola Morris

Thanks for all your posts. I have read a lot about both sides of TV. I
am from A country where there are 5 channels! Of course there is still
violence, killing, commercials and other in your face stuff, however,
the technology here in USA has always been somewhat overwhelming for
me. But, I do live here, and so do my kids. SO. I will think through
all of this info. (Yes, in my own head)! You guys were all pretty
supportive and that was what I was looking for. I even appreciate the
sarcasm. By the way. I am really not anti TV. Just looking for ideas
and advice. Now. Back to lurking.
Nikky

Jennifer Long

Jacki,
Oh that looks so good!! You all must have really enjoyed that! Yummy!
Thanks for sharing
Jen L.

Gold Standard <jacki@...> wrote:

I just posted pictures of my family and of Hannah's cooking today. It was
such a delightful meal...I just wanted to share.

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/photos

Folder titled Jacki's family.

Thanks,
Jacki






---------------------------------
See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela S.

<I just posted pictures of my family and of Hannah's cooking today>



Awesome presentation! Yum!



Angela ~ former culinary artist

game-enthusiast@...






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

The formatting might only be beautiful for Macs at this point, but
http://sandradodd.com/t/holly

I put it on a page about TV watching. I used a couple of the photos
(hope you don't mind), and if PC users aren't getting the format,
I'll bring the photos back in and reduce them.

Sandra

Gold Standard

Oh my goodness Sandra! It's beautiful!

Love the watermelon drink border :o)

Thank you,
Jacki
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 7:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] TV????


The formatting might only be beautiful for Macs at this point, but
http://sandradodd.com/t/holly

I put it on a page about TV watching. I used a couple of the photos
(hope you don't mind), and if PC users aren't getting the format,
I'll bring the photos back in and reduce them.

Sandra





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lerato majikfaerie

Hi,
Forgive me if I'm outta line, but I've been reading all this discussion
about TV, and while I agree totally with the bunking of ridiculous
anti-TV "evidence" and I'm completely on the path of not "limiting"
anything, including TV, I just wanted to say how I *feel*
I *feel* like TV is evil. Well not "evil" in the christain devil and
brimstone sence, but for me, it's not a good thing.
I can't really explain that.

I grew up in a very secular home where we were allowed to watch as much
TV as we liked, we came home from school and turned the TV on. we
"zombied" in front of it till dinner time, and then went straight back
to it. the only self-imposed respite from TV was computer games, of
which we always had plenty.

I feel that a lot of things that are products of our modern technology
culture are bad. I dont know why that is. I just feel that way.
Now I'm grown-up and I have a daughter and I guess I'm what a lot of
americans would call "crunchy" in the extreme.

We dont have a TV at home, simply because I dont want one. When I stay
somewhere that has a TV, I still go and sit in front of it for hours
without break. That's why I dont have a TV, I dont like it's effect on
*me*.

I do have a computer that plays DVDs and we watch plenty of them, as
well as downloading loads of shows and movies. My daughter is allowed
to use the computer and to watch as much as she likes, I dont limit her
on that, and she's allowed to watch TV if she is somewhere that has
one. I just choose not to have one in my house, because I *feel* that
it's bad.

I could follow the parents out there who feel that TV is bad, for
whatever reason and start quoting a bunch of "evidence" supporting my
belief, but I agree, the "evidence" is flawed and we can find
statistics that prove ANYTHING if we want.

I just wanted to share another perspective. For some people, (me) TV
IS bad, without needing any "evidence", my feelings are valid. Of
course, that doesnt mean that I have the right to go spouting some
illogical creed as a justification for limiting my own child in doing
something that I feel is bad for me. She does lots of things that I
think are revolting, like eating raspberry popsicles! ;)

Ela


Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-Forgive me if I'm outta line, but I've been reading all this
discussion
about TV, and while I agree totally with the bunking of ridiculous
anti-TV "evidence" and I'm completely on the path of not "limiting"
anything, including TV,...-=-

It's not about forgiveness of individuals, it's about discussion of
ideas. Don't personalize it.

-=-I do have a computer that plays DVDs and we watch plenty of them, as
well as downloading loads of shows and movies. My daughter is allowed
to use the computer and to watch as much as she likes, I dont limit her
on that, and she's allowed to watch TV if she is somewhere that has
one. I just choose not to have one in my house, because I *feel* that
it's bad.-=-

But you watch shows on the computer. Somehow you're
compartmentalizing these things. Would you let her read, but NOT let
her into a library or bookstore? Is the magic difference that you're
the one choosing the programs? Is it that there aren't
advertisements or news shows?

-=-When I stay
somewhere that has a TV, I still go and sit in front of it for hours
without break. That's why I dont have a TV, I dont like it's effect on
*me*. -=-

Maybe if you had one at your house and worked on making conscious
decisions about what to do with your time instead of blaming the box,
you wouldn't want to sit in front of it at other people's houses.

-=-
I feel that a lot of things that are products of our modern technology
culture are bad. I dont know why that is. I just feel that way.-=-

Now that you have a daughter you should not just not know why you
feel certain ways. It's probably time to really analyze WHY, so that
you don't pass illogical prejudices on to her, or limit her life by
your unexamined fears.

-=-without needing any "evidence", my feelings are valid. -=-

You call them valid, but that doesn't create validity.
If I feel aluminum foil will protect me from having my mind read,
that doesn't make it a valid belief.

-=-Of
course, that doesnt mean that I have the right to go spouting some
illogical creed as a justification for limiting my own child in doing
something that I feel is bad for me.-=-

What are you going to do when she wants a TV? Will she feel it's a
possibility or will she just not even ask?

When I was teaching 12 year old kids, some of them had NO print
material at home, at all. Not a newspaper, not a book. The parents
didn't want it. The parents figured there were books at school and
the kids could read books there. When I was little my parents didn't
own books really�my mom a few pamphlets and magazines and one
cookbook. They did get the newspaper, and bought us comic books and I
was in a couple of kid bookclubs. But I saw houses with nothing.

Unschooling needs access and input.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

What would be out of line would be for a parent to publicly defend
refusing to even examine or rationally consider beliefs that he or
she is imposing on his/her children - to insist that they are "valid"
just because they are his/hers.

I just don't understand how an intelligent, thinking person could
simply not care whether beliefs are rational, logical, and based on
the reality of how unschooling works. Unschooling doesn't work so
well in families where parents are into control. It doesn't work so
well in families where parents have a lot of fears. It doesn't work
so well in families where parents tend to set limits and want to
narrow a child's world.

We all have to be careful about extrapolating from our own childhood
experiences into our unschooled kids lives - they are living such
very different lives, so VERY different from the experience of going
to school, day after day.

It is possible to raise kids WITH a tv in the house and not have them
distracted by it from doing other cool things or attracted to it
against their will. None of my kids is drawn to tv in some weird way
- they are calm and comfortable about tv, just like about books,
games, cooking, swimming, talking, drawing, etc. There is absolutely
no difference in how they treat tv than how they treat anything else.
They are selective, they don't become zombies when watching, they
don't give up other activities to watch tv, they're definitely not
couch potatoes.

My husband grew up in Iran - lived in a very small town, no
electricity, etc., until he was 12 and then in a city with
black&white tv and only a couple of channels, until he was 23. He is
most definitely THE most avid tv-watcher in our family, by far. TV-
free childhood isn't going to make children less attracted to it -
human nature really just doesn't work that way.

-pam

On Aug 7, 2006, at 12:53 AM, lerato majikfaerie wrote:

> Forgive me if I'm outta line, but I've been reading all this
> discussion
> about TV, and while I agree totally with the bunking of ridiculous
> anti-TV "evidence" and I'm completely on the path of not "limiting"
> anything, including TV, I just wanted to say how I *feel*
> I *feel* like TV is evil. Well not "evil" in the christain devil and
> brimstone sence, but for me, it's not a good thing.
> I can't really explain that.

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

=-None of my kids is drawn to tv in some weird way
- they are calm and comfortable about tv, just like about books,
games, cooking, swimming, talking, drawing, etc. There is absolutely
no difference in how they treat tv than how they treat anything else.
They are selective, they don't become zombies when watching, they
don't give up other activities to watch tv, they're definitely not
couch potatoes.-=-

But Pam, what if people say "Well not all children are like yours"?

Not a week ago someone said something like "Not all children are like
Holly," and I thought it was sad for some people to seem to decide
right off that their children don't have the potential or the value
or something that other people's kids do. That's VERY negative, but
it can be undone. People's thinking can change. Their attitudes
toward their children can be improved.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

queenjane555

> It is possible to raise kids WITH a tv in the house and not have
>them distracted by it from doing other cool things or attracted to
>it against their will. None of my kids is drawn to tv in some weird
>way - they are calm and comfortable about tv, just like about books,
>games, cooking, swimming, talking, drawing, etc. There is absolutely
>no difference in how they treat tv than how they treat anything
>else.

We recently had friends visiting from out of town, with a 9, 5, and 2
yos. I didnt get really into her "tv philosophy" because i wanted to
keep everything light, and didnt want to have to defend my position.
But it was clear that she's restrictive about it (was before even
having kids.) I thought it ironic how her oldest was totally "sucked
into" the computer, wanted to stay up later playing it, wanted to play
it early when he woke up. It was a "violent" game (uhhh...cartoony
sword play, knights and dragons stuff), something he wouldnt be
allowed to play at home, although his mother let up while he was here.

But i'm betting that because he was soooo drawn to it, his mom was
thinking "see, if i let him play that at home, it would be ALL he
wanted to do..."

My son decided to no longer bring his PSP to the HS group
because "thats all the kids want to do, since they don't have one at
home"...but again, i bet the anti-video game moms are
thinking "see...if i let him have that game, all he would want to do
is play it."

The basis of attachment parenting is the belief that if you meet a
child's need, the need is fulfilled and goes away. (If a child knows
you will be there for him, he is more comfortable seperating because
he knows he can come back to you.) Yet somehow AP parents lose this
when it comes to other things....like food/chores/bedtime/tv....my son
can EASILY walk away from tv/computer/videogames if there is something
better to do, because he knows it will be there. But our poor little
friend knew that once he left our house he'd never see AdventureQuest
again, so he'd better try to get his fill.

Katherine

Sandra Dodd

-=-My son decided to no longer bring his PSP to the HS group
because "thats all the kids want to do, since they don't have one at
home"...but again, i bet the anti-video game moms are
thinking "see...if i let him have that game, all he would want to do
is play it."-=-

My sister told me, after her kids once again argued over who would
get to play video games when they were visiting outside their home,
that she would never buy her kids a video game system, because they
would fight over it.

I asked if she'd feel better spending her money on something that
wasn't interesting enough to fight about, or some such. She looked
at me with that blinky stare that means "processing... processing"
and within the month bought them a Sega system. My niece was maybe
seven then, and now she's 21, and she still does art based on Sonic
the Hedgehog. Pretty fancy art. She also (to tie back to TV <g>)
learned LOTS of drawing from the PBS drawing shows by Mark Kistler
(who is himself anti-TV--a wonderful irony, because if you've ever
heard of him, it's because he was on TV for years).

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/22255777/
One's there, and one is
http://sandradodd.com/videogames

Sandra









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

I found something while looking for something else. That happens ALL
the time. <bwg>

http://sandradodd.com/t/vijay.html

Here's the beginning of it, but there's lots more, and the formatting
is better at the link.

Television, Children and Making Decisions Rationally

In an online discussion on TV and unschooling, Vijay Owens gave some
wonderful responses about children learning to make their own
choices, and in the faith she has in her children's learning. The
other mom's quotes are italicized and indented; the others are
Vijay's. �Sandra

If we don't let our kids determine for themselves what is crap and
what isn't how will they ever know the difference? Will they always
look to someone else to tell them what their opinions are if we
choose to do it for them? I want my kids to have their own opinions.

Do you think my not having a TV will prevent my kids from having
their own opinions?

That's not what I said. I just want to get in the habit of letting my
kids make up their own minds in general. Food, bedtime, books, tv,
whatever. Within reason. Obviously this is not an "anything goes"
situation, I use my judgement. If you want to make up their minds for
them on the issue of television, that is your choice.

Do you think there's not other kinds of crap to weed through in life
besides what's on TV?

Of course there is crap in other areas of life! Some books are crap,
but that is just my opinion. It doesn't mean that I think they
shouldn't exist, or that people shouldn't read them. Many times I've
started to read a book and then thought, you know, this just isn't
doing it for me. So I put the book down. I don't burn it, or write
angry letters to the author or publisher, I just put the book down.
Same with TV. If I think a show has potential and I start watching
it, if I don't like it I turn the channel or I turn it off. I don't
give away my TV or tell other people that they should to, or that
they are somehow damaging their children by letting them watch Sesame
Street.....
http://sandradodd.com/t/vijay.html




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rod Thomas

Not a week ago someone said something like "Not all children are like
Holly," and I thought it was sad for some people to seem to decide
right off that their children don't have the potential or the value
or something that other people's kids do. That's VERY negative, but
it can be undone. People's thinking can change. Their attitudes
toward their children can be improved.

Sandra


I was not referring to my own children, but to children in general.
This is about discussion of ideas, don't personalize it.
Now... are you saying absolutely (and I am confused) that no child
without restrictions has ever or will ever watch TV obsessively? only
unschooled kids won't? These double negatives are getting to me... :)

Flyerkat

Gold Standard

>>Now... are you saying absolutely (and I am confused) that no child
>>without restrictions has ever or will ever watch TV obsessively?<<

How about when you find one, you describe the situation and we talk about
it. People here are sharing their real stories about their real children.
Hypothetical situations could take up a lot of time and effort with little
results, except that people could continue to support their fears without
foundation.

Jacki

Rod Thomas

Because if I am to accept this idea, I want to be sure I am not making a
big mistake.
Flyerkat

>>Now... are you saying absolutely (and I am confused) that no child
>>without restrictions has ever or will ever watch TV obsessively?<<

How about when you find one, you describe the situation and we talk
about
it. People here are sharing their real stories about their real
children.
Hypothetical situations could take up a lot of time and effort with
little
results, except that people could continue to support their fears
without
foundation.

Jacki

Gold Standard

>>Because if I am to accept this idea, I want to be sure I am not making a
>>big mistake.<<

First of all, are you sure that your car will not spontaneously combust when
you get in it next? Are you sure the next time you're at the grocery store
that there's not a bomb planted there? Of course you can't be sure of either
of those two things, but the best information you have so far should satisfy
you such that you'll get in your car and drive to the grocery store.

We can't make you accept this idea, but so far I have read many people's
real-life experiences with unschooling and no limits on TV, and no one has
produced a person that you are afraid your child will become. That's
probably as good of evidence as you are going to get. I don't think there is
more that this list can offer you this way. We talk about what's real and at
the moment we are probably the best source of information about the results
of unschooling. You and anyone else can continue to ask the same questions,
and have the same fear of making a "big mistake" (when really, how big could
this mistake be...what is the worst case scenario in your mind?), or you
could try it out and see for yourself. It appears that nothing else will
convince you anyway.
Jacki
_

Pamela Sorooshian

On Aug 7, 2006, at 8:52 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:

> Because if I am to accept this idea, I want to be sure I am not
> making a
> big mistake.
> Flyerkat

There are no real certainties.

You have real kids, right? You have to think about your own kids, not
about some generic or theoretical kids. We don't know how you behave
with your kids - we know that in OUR lives, given the way we interact
with our own kids, we haven't set limits on tv and we don't have kids
with any kind of "tv issues." Our kids don't obsessively watch it and
they don't vilify it and they treat it casually and calmly just
exactly the way they treat other things in their lives like books,
games, art supplies, people, and on and on.

I recall you have a 13 yo and an 8 yo - is that right?

I have a suggestion - talk to them about tv. Ask them if they think
you ought to trust them to make good choices without you setting
limits. Tell us what they said.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

<http://home.uchicago.edu/~jmshapir/tv012606.pdf>

I went looking for any decent studies on the effects of tv on
children and came across this new study - statistical one involving
300,000 children over many years.

***We find strong evidence against the prevailing wisdom that
childhood television viewing causes
harm to cognitive or educational development. Our preferred point
estimate indicates that an
additional year of preschool television exposure raises average test
scores by about .02 standard
deviations. We are able to reject negative effects larger than about .
03 standard deviations per
year of television exposure. For reading and general knowledge scores–
domains where intuition
and existing evidence suggest that learning from television could be
important–we find marginally
statistically significant positive effects. ***

Sandra Dodd

-=-I was not referring to my own children, but to children in
general.-=-

On this list I want to talk about unschooled children, when we're
talking about ideals and possibilities and experiences.

"Not all children are like Holly" is more accusation than
information. If we name any one person we can say "not all people
are like that."

It's really a good idea to wait to post until there's something
helpful to say.

-=-This is about discussion of ideas, don't personalize it. -=-

Where in the paragraph below have I personalized? I didn't even
remember who wrote the thing about Holly. It WAS about the idea of
defensiveness and resistence. It is about the idea of people batting
away real information with "yeah, but" excuses.

This paragraph is not personalized to any person. It's general.
-=-Not a week ago someone said something like "Not all children are like
Holly," and I thought it was sad for some people to seem to decide
right off that their children don't have the potential or the value
or something that other people's kids do. That's VERY negative, but
it can be undone. People's thinking can change. Their attitudes
toward their children can be improved.-=-

-=-Now... are you saying absolutely (and I am confused) that no child
without restrictions has ever or will ever watch TV obsessively? only
unschooled kids won't? These double negatives are getting to me... :)
-=-

Instead of asking questions that seem to show you want absolute rules
instead of principles you can apply to your own life, please read
what's already been written by several people here:
http://sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/tv

What I'm saying absolutely is that negative attitudes are harmful but
can be undone. People's thinking can change, but it has to change
from the inside. Learning happens because people make connections
inside themselves, not because they badger others to state something
absolutely.

-=-are you saying absolutely (and I am confused) that no child
without restrictions has ever or will ever watch TV obsessively?-=-

What others have written seems to be being ignored in favor of
zeroing in on me, my family, what I said. Others have written (and
it made sense when I read it; you might want to go back and look for
those) that unhappiness and boredom and depression and stress can
make TV attractive. It's a way to be alone even in the midst of
other people, in those cases. It's escape, just as reading a book or
listening to music can be. Making live happier and more interesting
will make learning better, and easier, and if there are many good
alternatives (as others have stated), TV won't be the only choice.
If in the midst of many other choices that ARE appealing to the
children (not just judged better by the mom), the child still chooses
to watch a TV show, the mom will know that was a choice in a rich
environment.

The choices children make in a thin, boring, negative environment
can't really be held up to the choices kids make in best-possible
unschooling nests, can they? Energy spent thinking or saying "it's
not FAYER" should be put instead into working on getting unschooling
in all kinds of ways so that TV isn't looming so large on the
horizon, but is jut one of those things, smaller than people, part of
a rich, busy life.

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Hypothetical situations could take up a lot of time and effort
with little
results, except that people could continue to support their fears
without
foundation.-=-

I think that's the result many people want. They want to challenge
us and win so they can feel justified in ignoring us.

It's related emotionally and intellectually, I think, to Bible
inerrancy. To those who have been taught there is ONE book and it is
flawless and doesn't contradict itself, all they have to do to reject
the whole thing is to find one flaw. They wanted to cling to the
idea that there was one perfect set of rules they could follow
without thinking very hard, or reject altogether as a whole.

It's a much harder thing to come to believe that everything we do is
a choice based on the best we know and can do, and that each of us
needs to know and understand why and on what basis we will make the
choices we make.

Absolutely, the opportunity for blind following still exists. There
are churches, communities, political beliefs, diets, curriculum
choices, etc. that will sell you the whole kit. You can follow
along, dress like them, buy their workbooks, pay again next year for
a new set of books, and they WILL give you simple answers to simple
questions.

This list isn't one of those. This list isn't everything to anyone.
It doesn't mean to be, it can't be. This list, this philosophy of
unschooling, says "The world is big; live in it. Look around,
compare things, THINK!"

Unschooling isn't an easy answer, and it doesn't fall to lame
criticisms, either. Homeschoolers at large hear "What about
socialization/math/jobs/college?" Unschoolers hear all that plus a
whole other layer of the same old, same old arguments and questions.

We can help other people who have those arguments, but those who have
really seen unschooling take root in their real lives with their real
kids, whose lives are more peaceful and sensible and rich, can't be
harmed by those arguments and questions.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-You and anyone else can continue to ask the same questions,
and have the same fear of making a "big mistake" (when really, how
big could
this mistake be...what is the worst case scenario in your mind?), or you
could try it out and see for yourself. It appears that nothing else will
convince you anyway.-=-

It's hard to discuss some aspects of all this. I think everyone has
to be convinced by really seeing it, but one can't see what it is
without dropping the noisy overlay of the recitation of what is it NOT.

In the case of anyone who stays and argues for a year without sharing
stories of what really is or isn't working at home, without
indicating that there's any actual change taking place, I think of this:
-=-Once upon a time a confident and experienced scholar went to the
best Zen teacher he knew, to apply to be his student. The master
offered tea, and he held out his cup. While the student recited his
knowledge and cataloged his accomplishments to date, the master
poured slowly. The bragging continued, and the pouring continued,
until the student was getting a lapful of tea, and said, �My cup is
full!� The master smiled and said, �Yes, it is. And until you empty
yourself of what you think you know, you won�t be able to learn.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

It's not a competition. We're not setting up school and choosing A
students with a Valedictorian. Some people come here, read for a
month, go away quietly and make their lives better. (Some do that
after a day, I think.) Some argue for six months, have an epiphany
(usually because of something that happened at home, not because of
something they read) and stick around to help other people. Some
think they've got it, and after a year or two come back and say "NOW
I got it, when (this or that) happened." There are some of those
accounts here: http://sandradodd.com/unschool/gettingit
http://sandradodd.com/ifonly

Maybe because of school thinking some people refuse to go back to the
beginning information if they don't consider themselves beginners,
but I see karate teachers still do the first forms they ever learned,
even when nobody's looking. I see athletes stretch before they go
out. I see people re-read books they already "know" because they
want the reminder of the feeling of that information, and every time
they read it THEY are different, have different knowledge and
experiences, and they are older.

I re-read other people's deschooling articles sometimes and it's
soothing and strengthening for me.
http://sandradodd.com/help
There are lots of things to get to from there.

Sandra







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lesa McMahon-Lowe

~~In the case of anyone who stays and argues for a year without sharing
stories of what really is or isn't working at home, without
indicating that there's any actual change taking place, ~~

have people actually done this? (asking this question with shock)

Lesa
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Cool, Pam! Thank you for finding that. I've added it to my TV page
already.

So... they found it's not a big deal but slightly to the better-than-
not side?

I wonder if someday there will be a study about whether parental
approval and shared experiences make TV a better resource than
parental disapproval and separateness? I've seen it be true in all
the cases I've seen it attempted. <g>

To be technically fair ("fair" meaning a technical thing here), John
Holt about whom the intro of this list gushes expressed anti-TV
bias. To be fair to real life, he was an unmarried childless
intellectual and his TV experience was black and white stuff in the
50's and 60's. Lots of people made longterm TV decisions based on
that, and so missed the new-improved all-color 70's and 80's. Again,
it doesn't harm my kids that that's true.

John Holt wouldn't be able to hang out with my kids, Pam's, Joyce's,
Kelly's, Ren's and still say anything bad about TV freedoms.
Looking at TV and speculating is one thing. Looking at real
unschooled kids directly is a whole 'nother world.

Sandra


***We find strong evidence against the prevailing wisdom that
childhood television viewing causes
harm to cognitive or educational development. Our preferred point
estimate indicates that an
additional year of preschool television exposure raises average test
scores by about .02 standard
deviations. We are able to reject negative effects larger than about .
03 standard deviations per
year of television exposure. For reading and general knowledge scores–
domains where intuition
and existing evidence suggest that learning from television could be
important–we find marginally
statistically significant positive effects. ***

Sandra Dodd

-=-have people actually done this? (asking this question with shock)-=-

Lots, and worse. Not so much on this list as UnschoolingDiscussion.
I hope it's not happening on the newer lists like AlwaysUnschooled
and UnschoolingBasics.

I hope it's not, but I'd guess it is.

Some people seem to like to talk about unschooling and talk and talk
and argue, but back home it can be business as usual for a year or
two while they think about it. Poor kids.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

elamajikfaerie

Okay, I forgot that ideas facts and thoughts are generally prefferred
over feelings on this group. My only intention was to share another
perspective.

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> But you watch shows on the computer. Somehow you're
> compartmentalizing these things. Would you let her read, but NOT let
> her into a library or bookstore? Is the magic difference that you're
> the one choosing the programs? Is it that there aren't
> advertisements or news shows?

For some reason, you just assumed that I am the one choosing the
programmes. Firstly, I dont do that, as I SAID, I DONT limit my
daughter's viewing at all, she can explore on the net, watch any DVD
or download any show she likes, and she can watch TV in places where
it's available.

Really, there's far more news and advertising to be had on the
internet than on TV, especially a lot of the cable channels that dont
have any commercials at all. There is in fact, advertising right here
on this list page. I just dont have one in my house, because that's
something I dont want.

I personally have a problem with it. If I had a problem with alcohol
I would also choose not to have alcohol in my house. I have had TV in
my home before, and for *me* it was a problem, a serious addiction.
Yes, an addiction, in the scary sense of the word, I neglegted my life
while watching TV. Yes, I have some issues to work out with that one,
a whole super-centre full of trauma, and TV ended up being my
addiction (better than crack anyway ;) )

> -=-without needing any "evidence", my feelings are valid. -=-
>
> You call them valid, but that doesn't create validity.
> If I feel aluminum foil will protect me from having my mind read,
> that doesn't make it a valid belief.

Actually, if I feel a certain way, no matter how irrational or
illogical, its still a feeling. It is valid, as a feeling, in it's place.

> What are you going to do when she wants a TV? Will she feel it's a
> possibility or will she just not even ask?

Please dont project on me that I'm an authoritarian parent who is
resrticting and limiting, or anything. If my daughter wants to have a
TV and she asks for one, then she'll get it. Just like she gets
raspberry popsicles when she wants one, even though I find them
repulsive and wouldnt have one myself.

We also dont have a swimming pool but that doesnt mean that I restrict
my daughter from swimming.

I'm just a parent who is genuinely committed to unschooling, and I
join these groups for support and learning. I didnt come here to
criticize you, there's no need to be so defensive.

Ela

Lesa McMahon-Lowe

~~Okay, I forgot that ideas facts and thoughts are generally preferred
over feelings on this group. My only intention was to share another
perspective~~

that's because feelings are not reliable! feelings do not always express
the truth of the matter.

Lesa
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Aug 7, 2006, at 12:53 AM, lerato majikfaerie wrote:

> Forgive me if I'm outta line, but I've been reading all this
> discussion
> about TV, and while I agree totally with the bunking of ridiculous
> anti-TV "evidence" and I'm completely on the path of not "limiting"
> anything, including TV, I just wanted to say how I *feel*
> I *feel* like TV is evil. Well not "evil" in the christain devil and
> brimstone sence, but for me, it's not a good thing.
> I can't really explain that.

>>>Okay, I forgot that ideas facts and thoughts are generally
prefferred
over feelings on this group. My only intention was to share another
perspective.<<<

Feelings are often discussed here.

Maybe you expected people to "validate" your feelings? To say, "Well,
if you FEEL that way, then that's the way you feel and it must be
right for you." Stuff like that?

You posted about your feelings that tv is evil. Maybe what we should
have started talking about is what to do when we have such irrational
strong feelings - feelings that fly in the face of reality.

Especially given what you've added, later, that your child IS
watching a lot of tv programming, but just not on a tv in your own
house (on the computer or at other people's houses), it seems what
you have is some sort of phobia about the physical equipment itself -
the actual television set? A phobia - an extreme and irrational fear
or aversion toward something.

You can avoid having a tv in your house as long as your child doesn't
outright ask for one - but how horrible for her to think that her
mommy considers something she wants to be horrible and evil. So - the
first thing I'd suggest is to not pass on your own phobia to your child.

Phobias can be overcome - and working at that can take a big chunk of
negativity out of your own mind - one that you're so used to that you
don't realize it was there until it is gone.

This may ALL be off base and anyone who thinks tv is really "evil" is
free to ignore it. But it might be true for some.

And - I don't see anybody here being defensive. Like I said before,
my kids are grown, they grew up without tv limitations and they don't
have tv issues. I have nothing to gain or lose here - I'm past this
kind of decision.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-This may ALL be off base and anyone who thinks tv is really "evil" is
free to ignore it. But it might be true for some.-=

It might be true for some if their life is built on flimsy nonsense.

I might have a feeling that cockroaches get really big when I'm
asleep and put my clothes on and dance around the room. If I really
felt that, would it be "a valid feeling"?

If I thought that anything worldly would risk my children's eternal
souls and so the best thing would be to hit them with a stick (wooden
spoon, belt, whatever) if they watched TV, because TV was evil (i.e.
a Satanic threat to their souls) would that be a valid feeling?

Anyone who believes TV is evil or that cockroaches get really big at
night, dress up and dance might want to dig deep and send me a love
offering through PayPal at Sandra@...
Someday we might have dancing cockroach satanic TV theme park in
South Carolina or Tennessee or wherever might be appropriate for such
things. Keep those cards and letters coming.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

OOH!

Working on webpages, I found a great bit written a while back that
mentions specifically "Evil" in reference to TV:
=======================================


By Lyle on Thursday, July 3, 2003 - 08:07 am:
~~my husband has enforced a rule that we don't watch tv during the
day.~~

I did something similar when we were first starting out. We had begun
unschooling, (or at least I thought we had) and a few months had
passed by and I began to get scared that our boys weren't 'doing'
enough, or 'learning' enough, and all they wanted to do was to sit
around and watch TV and play video games. I hit the panic button and
put limits on everything (TV & video games) they wanted to do. It was
a disaster! They immediately began to "do" things, and as soon as I
got home from work they would tell me or show me what they had
"done", and I would ooo and ahhh over whatever it was, but soon
realized that they didn't care about my oooing and ahhing, they had
done "it" so they could get their reward--TV! In my attempt to guide
them to 'bigger and better' things, all I had done was to replace one
reward system (grades) with another (TV & video games). They didn't
care about 'doing' things, they only cared about doing what it took
to get their reward. Just like they did in school.

Until your children realize that the real reward Iaid out before them.

It may seem that the things you read about on these message boards,
and the children we all talk about here are...unique, in their true
desire to learn, and you may not be able to fathom that your children
could be this way too, but I've found in our case that our children
are EXACTLY like the one's you read about here, all they needed was
the time to get there. The way unschooled children 'act' and learn is
the way that children REALLY are, and it's school and it's mind-
numbing schedules and curriculums that change the way a child's mind
works and dulls their view of the world.

Don't put TV up on a pedestal like I did. Let your children be free
to choose, and in time, their choices will amaze you. Watch TV with
them, talk about what you're watching, ask them their opinions, but
don't push. Don't turn it into a 'lesson'. That will only make them
want to watch it...alone.

TV is not the Great Evil that some of the "experts" make it out to
be. Some of our best discussions have come from watching TV.

Let your children learn however and whenever they choose to.

Lyle