The dumb college argument
freepsgal
I would love some advice on how to handle this subject. It seems
there is a general knowledge that those people who go to college and
get a degree will make more money and be happier in their lives. I
need a new perspective on this. Here's an example.
My dd just turned 14 and in our state of GA, she now has the right
to choose which parent to live with. I've hired an attorney because
my dd wants to live with me. Her dad is absolutely livid. He
doesn't like the way we parent and he has plans for Claire and is
afraid I'm going to ruin her life. He's picked the high school for
her, and then chose all her classes, electives and even after-school
activities. My poor daughter is absolutely miserable there and
wants to freedom to fly! She's very brainwashed into thinking that
public school is the only way into college, and that college is the
only way into happiness. If you ask her what she wants more than
anything else though, it's to work with horses. So she's planned to
go to college to be a Vet. Now, in my unschooling lifestyle, I say
she should not go to school, but instead find her a stable nearby
that offers lessons and volunteer/job opportunities. She'd be in
heaven! But it all boils down to what about her future? As a Vet,
she can make $$$$ dollars. As a stable worker, she might only make
$ dollars. Either way she'd be happy *later*, but what about
*now*? Her dad has told her that my ideas will ruin her life. So
she wants to live with me but attend our local high school. I told
her I was totally supportive of anything SHE wants to do, not her
dad's wishes, but hers.
And of course there's my ds9 and dd8 to consider. I have no problem
if they choose to not go to college, but how do I handle questions
from well-meaning friends and relatives when they ask things
like, 'How will they afford a car and insurance, a house and
insurance, all the expenses of life, a family?'
FWIW, I didn't finish college but I did marry someone who has 2
degrees. He makes a really nice salary so my family thinks I'm okay
because even though I can't take care of myself, I married someone
who can. It's really a rather annoying situation, like I earned a
M.R.S. degree (Mrs. somebody).
Thoughts?
Beth M.
there is a general knowledge that those people who go to college and
get a degree will make more money and be happier in their lives. I
need a new perspective on this. Here's an example.
My dd just turned 14 and in our state of GA, she now has the right
to choose which parent to live with. I've hired an attorney because
my dd wants to live with me. Her dad is absolutely livid. He
doesn't like the way we parent and he has plans for Claire and is
afraid I'm going to ruin her life. He's picked the high school for
her, and then chose all her classes, electives and even after-school
activities. My poor daughter is absolutely miserable there and
wants to freedom to fly! She's very brainwashed into thinking that
public school is the only way into college, and that college is the
only way into happiness. If you ask her what she wants more than
anything else though, it's to work with horses. So she's planned to
go to college to be a Vet. Now, in my unschooling lifestyle, I say
she should not go to school, but instead find her a stable nearby
that offers lessons and volunteer/job opportunities. She'd be in
heaven! But it all boils down to what about her future? As a Vet,
she can make $$$$ dollars. As a stable worker, she might only make
$ dollars. Either way she'd be happy *later*, but what about
*now*? Her dad has told her that my ideas will ruin her life. So
she wants to live with me but attend our local high school. I told
her I was totally supportive of anything SHE wants to do, not her
dad's wishes, but hers.
And of course there's my ds9 and dd8 to consider. I have no problem
if they choose to not go to college, but how do I handle questions
from well-meaning friends and relatives when they ask things
like, 'How will they afford a car and insurance, a house and
insurance, all the expenses of life, a family?'
FWIW, I didn't finish college but I did marry someone who has 2
degrees. He makes a really nice salary so my family thinks I'm okay
because even though I can't take care of myself, I married someone
who can. It's really a rather annoying situation, like I earned a
M.R.S. degree (Mrs. somebody).
Thoughts?
Beth M.
Sandra Dodd
On May 24, 2006, at 7:36 AM, freepsgal wrote:
choices. That's not valid.
Working with horses now might make her "a stable worker" at fifteen,
but she can't be a vet at fifteen.
Be realistic with your daughter. If you don't think you can get full
custody in light of her dad's objections, it will be deeply dishonest
to let her think it's a possibility. You'll be setting her up for
unhappiness. Even if you were to get custody it could come with the
stipulation that she has to attend school.
These things might have helpful ideas in them:
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
http://sandradodd.com/teens
Sandra
> But it all boils down to what about her future? As a Vet,The whole thing is being "boiled down" (falsely) to two extreme
> she can make $$$$ dollars. As a stable worker, she might only make
> $ dollars. Either way she'd be happy *later*, but what about
> *now*?
choices. That's not valid.
Working with horses now might make her "a stable worker" at fifteen,
but she can't be a vet at fifteen.
Be realistic with your daughter. If you don't think you can get full
custody in light of her dad's objections, it will be deeply dishonest
to let her think it's a possibility. You'll be setting her up for
unhappiness. Even if you were to get custody it could come with the
stipulation that she has to attend school.
These things might have helpful ideas in them:
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
http://sandradodd.com/teens
Sandra
Melissa
I did finish college, but chose not to work so I could be home with
the kids. Are we suffering? LOL! People should live within their
means. Whether is $x or $xxxx that they are making. Oddly enough,
everyone I know lives right up to the edge of their means (or just
beyond ;-) ), including my friend who is a doctor and her husband
the software designer. They have more moola than I can conceive, yet
they have no more cash than we do.
Everything in life is negotiable. People think I'm kidding, but I'm
not. Going out on a limb (although I've been backed by writers and
grownups who do social studies for a living), our society has
squashed the innovative gene. People in India, China, Africa live in
abject poverty (ok, not all of them, that was a sweeping
generalization, huh?) but they have houses (such as they are)....they
create jobs for themselves selling flowers, or food, or embroidery,
whatever their talent may lie in. Kids here are taught to live the
status quo 'go to school, go to college, get a job somewhere
established, get married, have 2.2 kids, buy two cars, get the
biggest house you can afford, carry on til you die, maybe vacation
somewhere beachy and hot every two years'. Why is that the status
quo? Why do we mock those who choose to break it?
Example: My friend Natalie. Her husband and she agreed that they
would pay for college as they can afford it, ie, they do not get
student loans. Hard enough as it is, but they also have six kids. He
works a full time job. She homeschools the kids. From what we've
taught, this would be impossible. But they manage it in a symphony of
grace and beauty that brings tears to my eyes. They have CHOSEN to
live in university apartments in what some may consider poverty
conditions. It's a little apartment. They have one van for the lot of
them. They CHOOSE to not have car loans. They CHOOSE not to have
insurance, and pay everything in cash as illnesses pop up (and they
have had more than their fair share). They have CHOSEN to spend $x a
month to purchase land in Colorado. They CHOOSE not to buy as many
clothes, but do CHOOSE to buy sturdy brands that may cost a little
more. They go on vacations, although they CHOOSE vacations that are
less expensive and more family related. They CHOOSE not to buy all
the little things that our society says we should have, fancy
clothes, new cars, fast food,
Life isn't that expensive, what is expensive is living up to
society's expectations.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
the kids. Are we suffering? LOL! People should live within their
means. Whether is $x or $xxxx that they are making. Oddly enough,
everyone I know lives right up to the edge of their means (or just
beyond ;-) ), including my friend who is a doctor and her husband
the software designer. They have more moola than I can conceive, yet
they have no more cash than we do.
Everything in life is negotiable. People think I'm kidding, but I'm
not. Going out on a limb (although I've been backed by writers and
grownups who do social studies for a living), our society has
squashed the innovative gene. People in India, China, Africa live in
abject poverty (ok, not all of them, that was a sweeping
generalization, huh?) but they have houses (such as they are)....they
create jobs for themselves selling flowers, or food, or embroidery,
whatever their talent may lie in. Kids here are taught to live the
status quo 'go to school, go to college, get a job somewhere
established, get married, have 2.2 kids, buy two cars, get the
biggest house you can afford, carry on til you die, maybe vacation
somewhere beachy and hot every two years'. Why is that the status
quo? Why do we mock those who choose to break it?
Example: My friend Natalie. Her husband and she agreed that they
would pay for college as they can afford it, ie, they do not get
student loans. Hard enough as it is, but they also have six kids. He
works a full time job. She homeschools the kids. From what we've
taught, this would be impossible. But they manage it in a symphony of
grace and beauty that brings tears to my eyes. They have CHOSEN to
live in university apartments in what some may consider poverty
conditions. It's a little apartment. They have one van for the lot of
them. They CHOOSE to not have car loans. They CHOOSE not to have
insurance, and pay everything in cash as illnesses pop up (and they
have had more than their fair share). They have CHOSEN to spend $x a
month to purchase land in Colorado. They CHOOSE not to buy as many
clothes, but do CHOOSE to buy sturdy brands that may cost a little
more. They go on vacations, although they CHOOSE vacations that are
less expensive and more family related. They CHOOSE not to buy all
the little things that our society says we should have, fancy
clothes, new cars, fast food,
Life isn't that expensive, what is expensive is living up to
society's expectations.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On May 24, 2006, at 8:36 AM, freepsgal wrote:
>
> And of course there's my ds9 and dd8 to consider. I have no problem
> if they choose to not go to college, but how do I handle questions
> from well-meaning friends and relatives when they ask things
> like, 'How will they afford a car and insurance, a house and
> insurance, all the expenses of life, a family?'
>
> FWIW, I didn't finish college but I did marry someone who has 2
> degrees. He makes a really nice salary so my family thinks I'm okay
> because even though I can't take care of myself, I married someone
> who can. It's really a rather annoying situation, like I earned a
> M.R.S. degree (Mrs. somebody).
freepsgal
> Be realistic with your daughter. If you don't think you can getIn the state of Georgia, a child of 14 years of age and older has
> full custody in light of her dad's objections, it will be deeply
> dishonest to let her think it's a possibility.
the controlling interest in choosing where to live. The only way a
court would step in is if the parent they choose can be considered
unfit. And 'unfit' is not a perspective thing, but has a legal
definition so no matter how much my DH dislikes my parenting style,
I am not unfit according to the legal way of defining it. My dd14
signed a notorized affidavit that she wants to live with me and the
attorney is filing it this week. I'm not worried about getting
custody, I'm worried about the attitudes of her dad and stepmom.
They see the 4 years of high school as extremely important and if
she misses even a small part of her high school years, it will ruin
her chance for college and happiness.
It's park day! I'll check messages when I get home. Thanks so much
for the responses so far.
Beth M.
Sandra Dodd
On May 24, 2006, at 8:29 AM, freepsgal wrote:
Because school is considered standard and "normal," and your
daughter's not 18, it's still probably a good idea to take it easy
and not thumb your nose too hard.
Sandra
> In the state of Georgia, a child of 14 years of age and older hasI'm still guessing that a serious objection would be heard by a court.
> the controlling interest in choosing where to live.
Because school is considered standard and "normal," and your
daughter's not 18, it's still probably a good idea to take it easy
and not thumb your nose too hard.
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
Beth -- there are LOTS of unschooled kids who are in college or
graduated and are very successful - so you could gather that kind of
evidence in order to at least help her and her father understand that
unschooling and college are NOT mutually exclusive.
Instead of trying to convince them that not going to college is okay,
maybe just make sure they understand that unschooling doesn't
eliminate that option and, in fact, MANY unschoolers go to college
and are extremely successful there - mostly because they've survived
their childhood with their love of learning intact. They so obviously
go to college with some very clear advantages over conventionally-
schooled peers -- maybe that is something you can talk about? I've
been trying to find any articles written about this - but no luck, so
far. Guess this is something those of us with experience need to
write about a little more.
Also - I'm sure you've thought of this, but she's only 14 and it is
FAR too soon to nail down a future career. Lots of girls are nuts
about horses at 14 -- my youngest daughter was absolutely crazy about
horses - rode daily, spent many many hours at the stables, and lived
and breathed horses, for years. That time was incredibly valuable,
but she's moved on to some other interests and now thinks she might
be interested in being a librarian or maybe an engineer.
It is also a cruel set-up to aim so directly at veterinary school,
which IS very hard to get into. If anything less than a veterinary
degree is going to feel like failure, that's really a lot of pressure
and a cruel set-up to impose on a 14 yo.
-pam
graduated and are very successful - so you could gather that kind of
evidence in order to at least help her and her father understand that
unschooling and college are NOT mutually exclusive.
Instead of trying to convince them that not going to college is okay,
maybe just make sure they understand that unschooling doesn't
eliminate that option and, in fact, MANY unschoolers go to college
and are extremely successful there - mostly because they've survived
their childhood with their love of learning intact. They so obviously
go to college with some very clear advantages over conventionally-
schooled peers -- maybe that is something you can talk about? I've
been trying to find any articles written about this - but no luck, so
far. Guess this is something those of us with experience need to
write about a little more.
Also - I'm sure you've thought of this, but she's only 14 and it is
FAR too soon to nail down a future career. Lots of girls are nuts
about horses at 14 -- my youngest daughter was absolutely crazy about
horses - rode daily, spent many many hours at the stables, and lived
and breathed horses, for years. That time was incredibly valuable,
but she's moved on to some other interests and now thinks she might
be interested in being a librarian or maybe an engineer.
It is also a cruel set-up to aim so directly at veterinary school,
which IS very hard to get into. If anything less than a veterinary
degree is going to feel like failure, that's really a lot of pressure
and a cruel set-up to impose on a 14 yo.
-pam
On May 24, 2006, at 7:29 AM, freepsgal wrote:
> I'm not worried about getting
> custody, I'm worried about the attitudes of her dad and stepmom.
> They see the 4 years of high school as extremely important and if
> she misses even a small part of her high school years, it will ruin
> her chance for college and happiness.
>
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
=-=-=-'How will they afford a car and insurance, a house and
insurance, all the expenses of life, a family?'=-=-=-=-=
This link was in my inbox this morning. It is a short piece from NPR.
Mary Ellen
Choosing Life Over Career
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5424668&ft=1&f=1018
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
insurance, all the expenses of life, a family?'=-=-=-=-=
This link was in my inbox this morning. It is a short piece from NPR.
Mary Ellen
Choosing Life Over Career
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5424668&ft=1&f=1018
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On May 24, 2006, at 9:01 AM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
and the site (linked at http://sandradodd.com/teens I think) to
Valerie Fitzenreiter's daughter
Sandra
> They so obviouslyhttp://sandradodd.com/teen/writing
> go to college with some very clear advantages over conventionally-
> schooled peers -- maybe that is something you can talk about? I've
> been trying to find any articles written about this - but no luck, so
> far. Guess this is something those of us with experience need to
> write about a little more.
and the site (linked at http://sandradodd.com/teens I think) to
Valerie Fitzenreiter's daughter
Sandra
freepsgal
Thanks Sandra. Just to mention, I am not pushing home education on
my daughter, only seeking an alternative view point to the attitudes
that her dad and stepmom, both public school teachers, have been
putting in her head that you can't succeed in life without a public
or private school education.
I'm also not lifting her hopes with unrealistic expectations. We're
following the law to make a change which is our legal right, so we
have hope. I won't squash that. Her dad has been manipulative,
flat out lying to her about what the laws in Georgia are because his
idea is that no kids should ever have a choice on where to live or
where to school.
We (my daughter and I) have an appointment with my local school
district next week to register her for high school. I'm not
advocating that she move in with me and quit school all at the same
time. I think that's going to be way too much on her. However, I
can put a positive light on home education. She can still take
lessons and volunteer at a stable nearby even if she is in high
school. Plus, the local high school has an Equestrian Team which
she thinks is very cool. Unfortunately, they don't have an
orchestra but the band director said she could have an Independent
Study period worked into her schedule for Viola practice. We've
been in contact with the school following the advice of our
attorney. He's been practicing family law in this state for a while
and feels very positive based on his experience.
All I really want is for Claire to be happy. She wants the freedom
to choose her own class schedule and activities. I'm here to
support her in that. :)
Beth M.
my daughter, only seeking an alternative view point to the attitudes
that her dad and stepmom, both public school teachers, have been
putting in her head that you can't succeed in life without a public
or private school education.
I'm also not lifting her hopes with unrealistic expectations. We're
following the law to make a change which is our legal right, so we
have hope. I won't squash that. Her dad has been manipulative,
flat out lying to her about what the laws in Georgia are because his
idea is that no kids should ever have a choice on where to live or
where to school.
We (my daughter and I) have an appointment with my local school
district next week to register her for high school. I'm not
advocating that she move in with me and quit school all at the same
time. I think that's going to be way too much on her. However, I
can put a positive light on home education. She can still take
lessons and volunteer at a stable nearby even if she is in high
school. Plus, the local high school has an Equestrian Team which
she thinks is very cool. Unfortunately, they don't have an
orchestra but the band director said she could have an Independent
Study period worked into her schedule for Viola practice. We've
been in contact with the school following the advice of our
attorney. He's been practicing family law in this state for a while
and feels very positive based on his experience.
All I really want is for Claire to be happy. She wants the freedom
to choose her own class schedule and activities. I'm here to
support her in that. :)
Beth M.
Nat Papovich
Just my two cents:
I'm not college educated, but my wife has been in school post high school for a full ten years now, from one field to another. This entire time, I've earned a living, first for myself, then supporting her, then a car payment, then our daughter, then a mortgage. My parents are both english professors, my sister was a double major in college and is heading back for a master's. I went to an alternative high school which was akin to a "freeschool" and have never had problems finding work. I've been published by a major publisher and am very successful and well-known in my niche. In another two years, my wife will be done with school and I'll be unschooling dd. I'm looking forward to the reversal of roles.
I did have pretty understanding parents though. They were never critical of my "lazy" high school, nor of my decision to, at first, put off college, then not have a plan to ever go. They saw that I was passionate about things and I'm sure that marrying an academic person helped a bit.
By now she must understand that if she ever wants to have certain careers (doctor, engineer, upper management, teaching), she'll be best served by having a college degree. Sure, you can always find a way to have a certain career without one, but it can be a small price to pay for certain paths. I do not agree that having a college degree greatly determines everyone's financial success and freedom.
NAT
I'm not college educated, but my wife has been in school post high school for a full ten years now, from one field to another. This entire time, I've earned a living, first for myself, then supporting her, then a car payment, then our daughter, then a mortgage. My parents are both english professors, my sister was a double major in college and is heading back for a master's. I went to an alternative high school which was akin to a "freeschool" and have never had problems finding work. I've been published by a major publisher and am very successful and well-known in my niche. In another two years, my wife will be done with school and I'll be unschooling dd. I'm looking forward to the reversal of roles.
I did have pretty understanding parents though. They were never critical of my "lazy" high school, nor of my decision to, at first, put off college, then not have a plan to ever go. They saw that I was passionate about things and I'm sure that marrying an academic person helped a bit.
By now she must understand that if she ever wants to have certain careers (doctor, engineer, upper management, teaching), she'll be best served by having a college degree. Sure, you can always find a way to have a certain career without one, but it can be a small price to pay for certain paths. I do not agree that having a college degree greatly determines everyone's financial success and freedom.
NAT
Sandra Dodd
On May 24, 2006, at 2:37 PM, Nat Papovich wrote:
to undo a temporary job I had working for a lawyer with an MBA.
I have an English degree and have dropped out of grad school three
times. The woman I was working for for a while had an English
degree, a law degree and an MBA.
Her house is nicer, and she owns two newish cars all by herself.
My house is bigger, but not "nice," and I drive a ten year old paint-
peeling used Dodge Caravan.
My house is very happy, I have Keith and the kids.
Her house is very quiet, usually. She was divorced years ago from a
doctor and never had children.
We seem not to be as much in debt.
But when I was letting those ideas float through my head, I wondered
about statistics on college. First, I bet they're unattainable. But
what we are shown as examples seem all from the "success" end of
things—people point at HAPPY (married with children, financially
stable) "professionals" whose degrees enabled them to work in
whatever field it is.
But one could point at lottery winners and casino jackpot winners and
say "See? If these people hadn't gambled, they wouldn't be
millionaires." And if no one said "But what about all the LOSERS?,"
it might seem to make sense, for a moment.
Someone with a better head for numbers might describe this better,
but what I was clumsily picturing in my mind as the chart of
statistics I WISH we had would involve:
What percentage of degreed potential professionals (PhD or Master's
or Law or Medicine, dentists, veterinarians—whatever it might be) are
NOT working in that field?
Of those who are working, how many wish they weren't? (Some number,
like the person I was going to talk to today, seem to wish they were
in another field, but it's hard to quit once there are debts, and
she's still making student loan payments after many years, too.)
Of those who entered graduate school, how many wandered off without
finishing? How many of those still have student loans?
Of those who begin college as freshmen or dabblers, how many do NOT
get an undergrad degree? (I know some didn't intend to, but were
just taking music classes or golf or a theatre class, or just
checking it out or using it as a springboard to get the heck away
from home.)
But if that could all be amassed in some visual form that I could
understand (i.e. not lists of figures), which I don't think it ever
really could, would it start to look like gambling stats, with LOTS
and lots of losers, a few low-level winners, and very few REAL
"winners"?
If fifty percent of the people who went to college with the intent to
get a higher degree finished, THEN would college be a great promise
of success? Would fifty percent failure rate make it a good bet?
I doubt it's fifty, though. I would guess two or three percent, or
less. Anyone know if it's knowable?
Sandra
> By now she must understand that if she ever wants to have certainI was thinking about this discussion this morning, while driving over
> careers (doctor, engineer, upper management, teaching), she'll be
> best served by having a college degree. Sure, you can always find a
> way to have a certain career without one, but it can be a small
> price to pay for certain paths. I do not agree that having a
> college degree greatly determines everyone's financial success and
> freedom.
to undo a temporary job I had working for a lawyer with an MBA.
I have an English degree and have dropped out of grad school three
times. The woman I was working for for a while had an English
degree, a law degree and an MBA.
Her house is nicer, and she owns two newish cars all by herself.
My house is bigger, but not "nice," and I drive a ten year old paint-
peeling used Dodge Caravan.
My house is very happy, I have Keith and the kids.
Her house is very quiet, usually. She was divorced years ago from a
doctor and never had children.
We seem not to be as much in debt.
But when I was letting those ideas float through my head, I wondered
about statistics on college. First, I bet they're unattainable. But
what we are shown as examples seem all from the "success" end of
things—people point at HAPPY (married with children, financially
stable) "professionals" whose degrees enabled them to work in
whatever field it is.
But one could point at lottery winners and casino jackpot winners and
say "See? If these people hadn't gambled, they wouldn't be
millionaires." And if no one said "But what about all the LOSERS?,"
it might seem to make sense, for a moment.
Someone with a better head for numbers might describe this better,
but what I was clumsily picturing in my mind as the chart of
statistics I WISH we had would involve:
What percentage of degreed potential professionals (PhD or Master's
or Law or Medicine, dentists, veterinarians—whatever it might be) are
NOT working in that field?
Of those who are working, how many wish they weren't? (Some number,
like the person I was going to talk to today, seem to wish they were
in another field, but it's hard to quit once there are debts, and
she's still making student loan payments after many years, too.)
Of those who entered graduate school, how many wandered off without
finishing? How many of those still have student loans?
Of those who begin college as freshmen or dabblers, how many do NOT
get an undergrad degree? (I know some didn't intend to, but were
just taking music classes or golf or a theatre class, or just
checking it out or using it as a springboard to get the heck away
from home.)
But if that could all be amassed in some visual form that I could
understand (i.e. not lists of figures), which I don't think it ever
really could, would it start to look like gambling stats, with LOTS
and lots of losers, a few low-level winners, and very few REAL
"winners"?
If fifty percent of the people who went to college with the intent to
get a higher degree finished, THEN would college be a great promise
of success? Would fifty percent failure rate make it a good bet?
I doubt it's fifty, though. I would guess two or three percent, or
less. Anyone know if it's knowable?
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
On May 24, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
On average -----
Of those students who start as freshmen at 4-year colleges and
universities - about 60 percent get a BA/BS.
Of those who start out at a community college, intending to transfer
to a 4-year college/university, about 15% get a BA/BS.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If fifty percent of the people who went to college with the intent toIt is knowable.....
> get a higher degree finished, THEN would college be a great promise
> of success? Would fifty percent failure rate make it a good bet?
>
> I doubt it's fifty, though. I would guess two or three percent, or
> less. Anyone know if it's knowable?
On average -----
Of those students who start as freshmen at 4-year colleges and
universities - about 60 percent get a BA/BS.
Of those who start out at a community college, intending to transfer
to a 4-year college/university, about 15% get a BA/BS.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On May 25, 2006, at 2:20 AM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
them to be doctors, lawyers, and veterinarians. A somewhat younger
friend of mine, 40ish, just got a master's degree in chemical
engineering. She works at Sandia labs, and they reportedly/reputedly
expect all employees to have or be working on a master's or higher.
People with degrees later in life... do they keep stats on that? Are
the stats by university, or by state? Is it worse in the U.S. than
other places?
-=-Of those students who start as freshmen at 4-year colleges and
universities - about 60 percent get a BA/BS.-=-
At which point is the 60 percent called? Four years? Another friend
whose youngest is late teens recently finished an undergrad degree
she started in the late 70's. <g> She's starting a master's.
I guess I'm partly wondering, on a more emotional than statistical
level (lots of both) whether pressure to go to college doesn't create
as many (or more) failures as successes (success in this statement
being measured as finishing a degree)? I know regular school
creates LOTS of failures. Any curve-grading, formal or not, creates
failures and below averages.
Sandra
> > If fifty percent of the people who went to college with theThat's still not the degree parents want kids to have when they want
> intent to
> > get a higher degree finished, THEN would college be a great promise
> > of success? Would fifty percent failure rate make it a good bet?
> >
> > I doubt it's fifty, though. I would guess two or three percent, or
> > less. Anyone know if it's knowable?
>
> It is knowable.....
>
> On average -----
>
> Of those students who start as freshmen at 4-year colleges and
> universities - about 60 percent get a BA/BS.
>
> Of those who start out at a community college, intending to transfer
> to a 4-year college/university, about 15% get a BA/BS.
them to be doctors, lawyers, and veterinarians. A somewhat younger
friend of mine, 40ish, just got a master's degree in chemical
engineering. She works at Sandia labs, and they reportedly/reputedly
expect all employees to have or be working on a master's or higher.
People with degrees later in life... do they keep stats on that? Are
the stats by university, or by state? Is it worse in the U.S. than
other places?
-=-Of those students who start as freshmen at 4-year colleges and
universities - about 60 percent get a BA/BS.-=-
At which point is the 60 percent called? Four years? Another friend
whose youngest is late teens recently finished an undergrad degree
she started in the late 70's. <g> She's starting a master's.
I guess I'm partly wondering, on a more emotional than statistical
level (lots of both) whether pressure to go to college doesn't create
as many (or more) failures as successes (success in this statement
being measured as finishing a degree)? I know regular school
creates LOTS of failures. Any curve-grading, formal or not, creates
failures and below averages.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
In the Wordsmith mailing yesterday was this quote:
"Turning 40 once meant winding down, but for thousands of Canadian
women,
it means winding up: hefting barbells, hitting the books, embracing
whole new lives."
Deborah Jones; Middle-aged? Who, Me?; Chatelaine (Toronto, Canada);
Apr 1, 1998.
The word of the day was "heft," which is interesting because I had
been thinking of the concept of "hefting" something, to test its
weight, and wondering whether younger people still knew that term.
A couple of weeks ago a friend of Kirby's was over who hadn't seen
the new iMacs (I have a G5 I got last summer) and I told him to lift
it to see how heavy it was. So then a couple of days ago I was
thinking (don't know why) of whether that was "heft," but I've always
thought of "heft" as holding it with palms of hands and trying to
gauge the weight (or just be impressed by the weight). And lifting
the iMac was KIND of like that.
So idle speculation was followed by an appearance of a"heft" in word
a day
Permalink: http://wordsmith.org/words/heft.html
...and a quote of some use to this discussion.
Sandra
"Turning 40 once meant winding down, but for thousands of Canadian
women,
it means winding up: hefting barbells, hitting the books, embracing
whole new lives."
Deborah Jones; Middle-aged? Who, Me?; Chatelaine (Toronto, Canada);
Apr 1, 1998.
The word of the day was "heft," which is interesting because I had
been thinking of the concept of "hefting" something, to test its
weight, and wondering whether younger people still knew that term.
A couple of weeks ago a friend of Kirby's was over who hadn't seen
the new iMacs (I have a G5 I got last summer) and I told him to lift
it to see how heavy it was. So then a couple of days ago I was
thinking (don't know why) of whether that was "heft," but I've always
thought of "heft" as holding it with palms of hands and trying to
gauge the weight (or just be impressed by the weight). And lifting
the iMac was KIND of like that.
So idle speculation was followed by an appearance of a"heft" in word
a day
Permalink: http://wordsmith.org/words/heft.html
...and a quote of some use to this discussion.
Sandra
Salamander starr
This reminds me of when I first began iexploring unschooling. My dh and a
friend were chatting with me about it...things were getting a bit heated.
Me (no college degree but 6 years off and on enrollment for various
interests) on one side and my dh and friend (both with undergrads) on the
other. And one made the comment "when you get your degree you'll appreciate
it more." To which my reaction was the most enjoyable laugh I'd had in
awhile.
My dh runs our small marina 3 days/week 1/2 the year and is a musician with
his double major in Psych and Philo. The friend works for an airline, at
the desk and has for 12 years with her Poly-Sci and Foreign Language degree.
At the time I was making more than the two of them combined and in my
mid-twenties with 6 years less under my belt. Even in retrospect it's
hilarious.
Anyway, of the people I know and spend time with 60% have degrees (either
grad or undergrad) from respectable institutions, only ONE is employed in
their field of interest, she's an epidemiologist. Of the five (including
me) without degrees of any type one is an animator/indie film maker, one is
a cinematographer, one is about to purchase the bar/venue she's run for the
past 8 years, one is a musician (touring with Conor Oberst _Bright Eyes_ as
I write this), and then there's me, too scattered to have a particular
career to persue, but sweetly set up developing marketing materials from
home for a great company with a great boss.
With all that said, I guess you can't prove anything about unschooling, but
it sure makes a good case against the traditional route.
A
To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all.
--Oscar Wilde
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
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friend were chatting with me about it...things were getting a bit heated.
Me (no college degree but 6 years off and on enrollment for various
interests) on one side and my dh and friend (both with undergrads) on the
other. And one made the comment "when you get your degree you'll appreciate
it more." To which my reaction was the most enjoyable laugh I'd had in
awhile.
My dh runs our small marina 3 days/week 1/2 the year and is a musician with
his double major in Psych and Philo. The friend works for an airline, at
the desk and has for 12 years with her Poly-Sci and Foreign Language degree.
At the time I was making more than the two of them combined and in my
mid-twenties with 6 years less under my belt. Even in retrospect it's
hilarious.
Anyway, of the people I know and spend time with 60% have degrees (either
grad or undergrad) from respectable institutions, only ONE is employed in
their field of interest, she's an epidemiologist. Of the five (including
me) without degrees of any type one is an animator/indie film maker, one is
a cinematographer, one is about to purchase the bar/venue she's run for the
past 8 years, one is a musician (touring with Conor Oberst _Bright Eyes_ as
I write this), and then there's me, too scattered to have a particular
career to persue, but sweetly set up developing marketing materials from
home for a great company with a great boss.
With all that said, I guess you can't prove anything about unschooling, but
it sure makes a good case against the traditional route.
A
To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all.
--Oscar Wilde
> From: "Sandra Dodd" Sandra@..._________________________________________________________________
> Date: Wed May 24, 2006 2:20pm(PDT)
>Subject: Re: The dumb college argument
>
>I was thinking about this discussion this morning, while driving over
>to undo a temporary job I had working for a lawyer with an MBA.
>
>I have an English degree and have dropped out of grad school three
>times. The woman I was working for for a while had an English
>degree, a law degree and an MBA.
>
>Her house is nicer, and she owns two newish cars all by herself.
>My house is bigger, but not "nice," and I drive a ten year old paint-
>peeling used Dodge Caravan.
>
>My house is very happy, I have Keith and the kids.
>Her house is very quiet, usually. She was divorced years ago from a
>doctor and never had children.
>
>We seem not to be as much in debt.
>
>But when I was letting those ideas float through my head, I wondered
>about statistics on college. First, I bet they're unattainable. But
>what we are shown as examples seem all from the "success" end of
>things�people point at HAPPY (married with children, financially
>stable) "professionals" whose degrees enabled them to work in
>whatever field it is.
>
>But one could point at lottery winners and casino jackpot winners and
>say "See? If these people hadn't gambled, they wouldn't be
>millionaires." And if no one said "But what about all the LOSERS?,"
>it might seem to make sense, for a moment.
>
>Someone with a better head for numbers might describe this better,
>but what I was clumsily picturing in my mind as the chart of
>statistics I WISH we had would involve:
>
>What percentage of degreed potential professionals (PhD or Master's
>or Law or Medicine, dentists, veterinarians�whatever it might be) are
>NOT working in that field?
>Of those who are working, how many wish they weren't? (Some number,
>like the person I was going to talk to today, seem to wish they were
>in another field, but it's hard to quit once there are debts, and
>she's still making student loan payments after many years, too.)
>
>Of those who entered graduate school, how many wandered off without
>finishing? How many of those still have student loans?
>Of those who begin college as freshmen or dabblers, how many do NOT
>get an undergrad degree? (I know some didn't intend to, but were
>just taking music classes or golf or a theatre class, or just
>checking it out or using it as a springboard to get the heck away
>from home.)
>
>But if that could all be amassed in some visual form that I could
>understand (i.e. not lists of figures), which I don't think it ever
>really could, would it start to look like gambling stats, with LOTS
>and lots of losers, a few low-level winners, and very few REAL
>"winners"?
>
>If fifty percent of the people who went to college with the intent to
>get a higher degree finished, THEN would college be a great promise
>of success? Would fifty percent failure rate make it a good bet?
>
>I doubt it's fifty, though. I would guess two or three percent, or
>less. Anyone know if it's knowable?
>
>
>
>Sandra
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message 17
> From: "Matt & Debbie Hudson" mattordeb@...
> Date: Wed May 24, 2006 3:54pm(PDT)
>Subject: Intro
>
>I'm Debbie. I live in Hong Kong with my husband and two daughters, aged
>two
>and four. I like the idea of unschooling very much so I've been lurking.
>I
>have a few questions. Here's the first one.
>
>Do any of you unschoolers live overseas? Any comments on pros and cons?
>
>-Debbie
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message 18
> From: "Sandra Dodd" Sandra@...
> Date: Wed May 24, 2006 6:39pm(PDT)
>Subject: Re: Intro
>
>
>On May 24, 2006, at 4:53 PM, Matt & Debbie Hudson wrote:
>
> > Do any of you unschoolers live overseas? Any comments on pros and
> > cons?
>
>The list isn't exclusively North America, so "overseas" won't work. <g>
>
>http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingotherwise
>http://sandradodd.com/local
>
>Both of those pages have lots of sites.
>
>Sandra
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message 19
> From: "Isaac Graves" isaacgraves@...
> Date: Wed May 24, 2006 11:06pm(PDT)
>Subject: Re: June Unschooling Conference
>
>Hi again,
>
>*"I doubt that on Waldorf and Montessori lists you called it an unschooling
>conference."*
>
>Right. I don't call it an unschooling conference on those lists. I focus
>on AWSNA's sponsorship when mentioning it to Waldorf folks and The
>Montessori Foundation and Int'l Mont. Council's when mentioning it to
>Montessori folks.
>
>*"Calling it an alternative education conference would've been fine.
>*
>I hear you. I think after hearing your concerns, I would refer to it in
>different terms on this list next time (although I won't be sending out
>another thing about it until about this time next year for the 4th annual
>conf!
>***
>"I've been to unschooling conferences. <g> They're not about creating
>schools."
>
>* Creating schools and learning centers/communities is only an element of
>our conference, not the focus.
>
>*"I know unschooling's a broad concept, and that there IS an unschooling
>thread through the conference topics, but my objection was that it seemed
>to
>be being billed as "an unschooling conference" for the purpose of this
>unschooling list."
>*
>You're right. I did put the subject as "June Unschooling Conference" for
>the purpose of hoping to raise an extra eyebrow. And I put it out in a
>different way to each list I post it too. However, I wouldn't claim it to
>be a Montessori conference or Waldorf conference. Unschooling,
>Homeschooling, and Democratic Education were the only ones that I felt
>applied out of all the alternatives.
>
>*"It was a minor objection, honestly. A clarification. I have nothing
>whatsoever against school reform and alternative education. It's not just
>the same, though, as the unschooling families do at home with their own
>kids."
>*
>Certainly after hearing your concerns, I am more than happy to refer to it
>in a different way as my goal was not to be misleading. However your
>comment about unschooling not being the same struck a cord with me. While
>unschooling is certainly not the same as school reform, it is a very real
>and valued form alternative education. Alternative education encompasses
>alternatives (see the cover of our packet for a visual example of this:
>www.edrev.org/packet.html ). I also think it's worth making connections as
>unschoolers to the freedom-based democratic schools. The similarities in
>not only philosophy, but daily approach to education is indecipherable most
>of the time. That's not to say there aren't differences, as that line of
>thinking would be naive, but countless commonalities are worth paying
>attention to and learning from each other.
>
>Best,
>
>Isaac
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message 20
> From: "Pamela Sorooshian" pamsoroosh@...
> Date: Thu May 25, 2006 1:18am(PDT)
>Subject: Re: The dumb college argument
>
>
>On May 24, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> > If fifty percent of the people who went to college with the intent to
> > get a higher degree finished, THEN would college be a great promise
> > of success? Would fifty percent failure rate make it a good bet?
> >
> > I doubt it's fifty, though. I would guess two or three percent, or
> > less. Anyone know if it's knowable?
>
>It is knowable.....
>
>On average -----
>
>Of those students who start as freshmen at 4-year colleges and
>universities - about 60 percent get a BA/BS.
>
>Of those who start out at a community college, intending to transfer
>to a 4-year college/university, about 15% get a BA/BS.
>
>
>-pam
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
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Pamela Sorooshian
On May 25, 2006, at 6:04 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
another list. Here is an excerpt including the part where I used the
word "hefty."
I was responding to someone else's post, in the midst of a lengthy
discussion - so this is out of context, but still...
take a hefty dose of energy to successfully, happily unschool.
Children growing up in a dry, relatively boring environment with
parents who do not work pretty energetically to support their
interest, are not successfully, happily unschooling, imo.<<<
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So idle speculation was followed by an appearance of a"heft" in wordAnd I used the word to describe unschooling - just yesterday on
> a day
another list. Here is an excerpt including the part where I used the
word "hefty."
I was responding to someone else's post, in the midst of a lengthy
discussion - so this is out of context, but still...
>>That is EXACTLY why I am being honest and saying I think it DOES
take a hefty dose of energy to successfully, happily unschool.
Children growing up in a dry, relatively boring environment with
parents who do not work pretty energetically to support their
interest, are not successfully, happily unschooling, imo.<<<
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]