Jen and Scott Lynch

The recent conversations on this list about creating a nest have
brought up a lot of issues about cleaning (who should do it and why)
and stuff (who should control stuff). This sent me off in a rant to
my husband about one of my least favorite, oft heard phrases; "less is
more." He suggested that I post it to you all (I think he has heard it
a few times). In my opinion, this phrase is used by people who want to
be stingy. Less is not more! More is more and less is less.
Sometimes people want "more" and sometimes people want "less." Giving
a child "less" does not make them appreciate or cherish the things they
do have, it leaves them wanting. Giving a child "more" (more toys,
more attention, more books, more opportunities) gives them more to use,
share and (heaven forbid) enjoy!

My second least favorite phrase is "that which does not kill us makes
us stronger." "That which does not kill us" brings us awfully close to
the edge. It makes us exhausted, dejected, hopeless and run-down.
Telling a person that a horrible tragedy will make them stronger is NOT
HELPFUL (in my opinion). Maybe some amazing observations or
experiences will come out of tragedy but when one is in the midst of
something horrible one needs support, a shoulder to lean on, food,
sunshine and caring. I think people use the above phrase after a
tragedy because they want to believe it, because they did not receive
adequate support during a terrible time.

Any other phrases we should get rid of for the sake of our happy
families?

Jen
http://circletheworld.blogspot.com

Kris

I like your thoughts on the "less is more" phrase. If someone wants a short
rant from me, all they need do is quote "that which does not kill us blah,
blah, blah". I remind them that "that" usually leaves us shaken, devastated
and often shortens our life span. It's just a comment used by those who
don't realize that they don't want to feel as sorry for us as they should
and/or as vulnerable as they really are.

Kris

On 2/18/06, Jen and Scott Lynch <j.slynch@...> wrote:
>
> The recent conversations on this list about creating a nest have
> brought up a lot of issues about cleaning (who should do it and why)
> and stuff (who should control stuff). This sent me off in a rant to
> my husband about one of my least favorite, oft heard phrases; "less is
> more." He suggested that I post it to you all (I think he has heard it
> a few times). In my opinion, this phrase is used by people who want to
> be stingy. Less is not more! More is more and less is less.
> Sometimes people want "more" and sometimes people want "less." Giving
> a child "less" does not make them appreciate or cherish the things they
> do have, it leaves them wanting. Giving a child "more" (more toys,
> more attention, more books, more opportunities) gives them more to use,
> share and (heaven forbid) enjoy!
>
> My second least favorite phrase is "that which does not kill us makes
> us stronger." "That which does not kill us" brings us awfully close to
> the edge. It makes us exhausted, dejected, hopeless and run-down.
> Telling a person that a horrible tragedy will make them stronger is NOT
> HELPFUL (in my opinion). Maybe some amazing observations or
> experiences will come out of tragedy but when one is in the midst of
> something horrible one needs support, a shoulder to lean on, food,
> sunshine and caring. I think people use the above phrase after a
> tragedy because they want to believe it, because they did not receive
> adequate support during a terrible time.
>
> Any other phrases we should get rid of for the sake of our happy
> families?
>
> Jen
> http://circletheworld.blogspot.com



--
The true measure of a person is how they treat those who can be of no use to
them.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

"Any other phrases we should get rid of for the sake of our happy
families?"'

Sandra and I opened our talk on "mindful parenting" with lame things
our parents said to us! "I'll give you something to cry about" and such.
So it wasn't sayings, but actual phrases we heard our parents say that
weren't helpful or conducive to parent-child relationships.

My Dad came to the conference, so I was a little bit nervous about
dissecting his parenting in front of hundreds of people! But he missed
that talk anyway...which was probably better for me.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 18, 2006, at 7:38 AM, Jen and Scott Lynch wrote:

> Less is not more! More is more and less is less.
> Sometimes people want "more" and sometimes people want "less." Giving
> a child "less" does not make them appreciate or cherish the things
> they
> do have, it leaves them wanting. Giving a child "more" (more toys,
> more attention, more books, more opportunities) gives them more to
> use,
> share and (heaven forbid) enjoy!

On the other hand, from the keyboard of someone who is living in the
midst of a whole lot of "MORE," most of which seems to be piled on
top of lots of other "MORE," on the floor, tables, bookshelves,
chairs, couches, tv top, kitchen counters, and any other surface that
can hold any "MORE" <G> -- there is a meaning to "Less is More" that
I can appreciate.

It is possible to have so much stuff that it truly does keep you from
being able to utilize other stuff. Getting rid of a layer of stuff
can open up the rest to be found and used.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Emily

I'd love to read this list of phrases you opened with in the talk.
Would you mind posting it? Or is it available elsewhere?

Just to add my least favorite phrase: "It's ok." when a child is
crying. If a child is crying, "it" is NOT ok. Otherwise the child
wouldn't be crying. When parents say, "it's ok", to me it usually
sounds more like they mean "PLEASE JUST SHUT UP AND STOP CRYING."

Emily

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> "Any other phrases we should get rid of for the sake of our happy
> families?"'
>
> Sandra and I opened our talk on "mindful parenting" with lame
things
> our parents said to us! "I'll give you something to cry about"
and such.
> So it wasn't sayings, but actual phrases we heard our parents say
that
> weren't helpful or conducive to parent-child relationships.
>
> My Dad came to the conference, so I was a little bit nervous about
> dissecting his parenting in front of hundreds of people! But he
missed
> that talk anyway...which was probably better for me.:)
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

Susan McGlohn

At 01:34 PM 2/18/2006, you wrote:

>On the other hand, from the keyboard of someone who is living in the
>midst of a whole lot of "MORE," most of which seems to be piled on
>top of lots of other "MORE," on the floor, tables, bookshelves,
>chairs, couches, tv top, kitchen counters, and any other surface that
>can hold any "MORE" <G> -- there is a meaning to "Less is More" that
>I can appreciate.


How about these also?

Less "No, you can't" means more "Yes! You Can!"

Less rules means more freedom.

Less restrictions means more choices.

Less limitations means more world to explore.

Less chores and requirements means more time to do and learn what we want.

Less yelling and coercion means more happiness and kindness.

Less criticism means more self-esteem and confidence.




Susan (VA)
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

"Less "No, you can't" means more "Yes! You Can!"

Less rules means more freedom.

Less restrictions means more choices.

Less limitations means more world to explore.

Less chores and requirements means more time to do and learn what we want.

Less yelling and coercion means more happiness and kindness.

Less criticism means more self-esteem and confidence."

I'm printing that out right now. Cool.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 18, 2006, at 8:38 AM, Jen and Scott Lynch wrote:

> -=- In my opinion, this phrase is used by people who want to
> be stingy. Less is not more! More is more and less is less. -=-


Standing, applauding, YES!
Let's hear it for language, for logic, for clarity and honesty.

-=-
My second least favorite phrase is "that which does not kill us makes
us stronger." "That which does not kill us" brings us awfully close to
the edge.-=-

And I've never thought about that much, but that which claims to be
making us stronger must sometimes kill us! It's only in retrospect
that people use that phrase.

I hated (HATED) hearing, when I was a kid, "It's not going to kill
you to..." or "Now that didn't kill you, did it?" It was sarcastic
and cruel. It essentially said "Anything short of death is
acceptable." I heard it from my mom and her relatives, mostly.

-=-Any other phrases we should get rid of for the sake of our happy
families?-=-

I have a few things saved and will add your important insights to
that list.
I started a collection, but they're not all in there yet, some are in
my ever-growing "things I saved" files. A few are here, though:
http://sandradodd.com/myths

Sandra

Ren Allen

"This is why I have my organizing business! LOL!"

Would you please come visit Eastern Tn someday!?:)
I have an art area in the garage that I can't seem to figure
out....someday. sigh.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Wendy S.

On Feb 18, 2006, at 5:09 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
> "This is why I have my organizing business! LOL!"
>
> Would you please come visit Eastern Tn someday!?:)
> I have an art area in the garage that I can't seem to figure
> out....someday. sigh.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com

...Then you can swing down to North Georgia and give me a hand. :-)

Wendy S. in GA
http://www.trustbirth.com

"Motherhood: 24/7 on the frontlines of humanity. Are you man enough
to try it?" Maria Shriver




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/18/2006 10:40:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
j.slynch@... writes:

>>>My second least favorite phrase is "that which does not kill us makes
us stronger." "That which does not kill us" brings us awfully close to
the edge. It makes us exhausted, dejected, hopeless and run-down.
Telling a person that a horrible tragedy will make them stronger is NOT
HELPFUL (in my opinion). Maybe some amazing observations or
experiences will come out of tragedy but when one is in the midst of
something horrible one needs support, a shoulder to lean on, food,
sunshine and caring. I think people use the above phrase after a
tragedy because they want to believe it, because they did not receive
adequate support during a terrible time.<<

I'll go one step further and say it's probably more commonly used by people
who HAVEN'T been through a tragedy, and are instead *thinking* they are saying
something comforting to someone who has,...

.... or trying to divert guilt feelings they are having after NOT helping
someone in their lives while THEY were going through a terrible time.

Nancy B.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eric and Jules

On Feb 18, 2006, at 7:38 AM, Jen and Scott Lynch wrote:

> Any other phrases we should get rid of for the sake of our happy
> families?
>
> Jen

Hi All,

I am reading this thread with an uneasy heart, Cindy's voice sounds
much like the adults in my childhood and I cringe from the absolute
rigidity of her words...

the false statements I cannot stand to hear are:

1. "you are/ were asking for it" [it being something negative]

2. I/ this will "teach you a lesson" as a punishment or forced
consequence

to me these statements are justifications for being mean, where blame
is created and then shifted inappropriately and unfairly...

Jules
CA mom of 3 boys 10, 7, 4 yrs

Julie Chamberlin

The one I hated as a kid was, "life's not fair." In eleven years of parenting, I've only said it once, but I gave myself a break about it because I was half-asleep at the time.

Julie (-:

Eric and Jules <edonato953@...> wrote:
On Feb 18, 2006, at 7:38 AM, Jen and Scott Lynch wrote:

> Any other phrases we should get rid of for the sake of our happy
> families?
>
> Jen

Hi All,

I am reading this thread with an uneasy heart, Cindy's voice sounds
much like the adults in my childhood and I cringe from the absolute
rigidity of her words...

the false statements I cannot stand to hear are:

1. "you are/ were asking for it" [it being something negative]

2. I/ this will "teach you a lesson" as a punishment or forced
consequence

to me these statements are justifications for being mean, where blame
is created and then shifted inappropriately and unfairly...

Jules
CA mom of 3 boys 10, 7, 4 yrs



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

That which does not kill us........

One of my favorite sayings is Adversity does not build character, it reveals it. I always joke That which does not kill us just makes us wish we were dead. My daughter has serious health issues. She has undergone 5 surgeries and may have another on the way. We were told 7 years ago that we could lose her. I know she will probably never be an old lady.
I think I AM stronger for having gone through the things I did. I also feel...older, and more tired than I EVER thought I would be. I have been going through this for awhile now so maybe I am coming from a different perspective. While I am not religious, I do feel having a child with special needs HAS been a blessing.

I do think people say that because they do not know what to say. They think they are helping. The only thing I wanted to do during that time was break all my dishes. I didn't do it. But that is all I wanted. People are always at a loss as to what to say or do. The absolute best response anyone gave me during those horrible times was this. "Man, that sucks"




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa

Well put...it's pretty much how I feel when we're dealing with autism
world. I have learned a whole lot that I never would have learned
before, we wouldn't be unschooling. But having peter pan for a
daughter was (for a while) a major stressor for me.

Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose


On Feb 18, 2006, at 5:37 PM, <pmteet@...> wrote:

> That which does not kill us........
>
> One of my favorite sayings is Adversity does not build character,
> it reveals it. I always joke That which does not kill us just
> makes us wish we were dead. My daughter has serious health issues.
> She has undergone 5 surgeries and may have another on the way. We
> were told 7 years ago that we could lose her. I know she will
> probably never be an old lady.
> I think I AM stronger for having gone through the things I did. I
> also feel...older, and more tired than I EVER thought I would be. I
> have been going through this for awhile now so maybe I am coming
> from a different perspective. While I am not religious, I do feel
> having a child with special needs HAS been a blessing.
>
> I do think people say that because they do not know what to say.
> They think they are helping. The only thing I wanted to do during
> that time was break all my dishes. I didn't do it. But that is all
> I wanted. People are always at a loss as to what to say or do. The
> absolute best response anyone gave me during those horrible times
> was this. "Man, that sucks"
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Attachment parenting John holt Parenting magazine
> Single parenting
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> Visit your group "AlwaysLearning" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 18, 2006, at 12:29 PM, Emily wrote:

> I'd love to read this list of phrases you opened with in the talk.
> Would you mind posting it? Or is it available elsewhere?


I think more were added, but here are some of them. We took turns
saying one, at the other person, but in our mom's tone.

Mine:
PUT that down right now.
Don't touch that.
You ask too many questions.
Shut up.You’re not hungry. You don’t know what hungry is.
Do you want a spanking?
[texas] If you don’t stop that crying, I’m gonna give you something
to cry about.
Shut up, you little brat.
You're book-smart, but you've got no common sense.
You’ve never been hungry a day in your life.


Ren's:

You've got so much potential, you're just not living up to it.
You're going to eat that for breakfast if you don't finish it right now.
You're all being a bunch of vultures (six hungry kids scarfing down
meals)
It's your choice, but we'll be SO disappointed in you if......(fill
in the blanks)
This is for adults only now, you kids go play somewhere else.

Some notes on that talk (preliminary notes, which were in the
handouts at the conference) are here:
http://sandradodd.com/rentalk

Schuyler Waynforth

>
> -=-Any other phrases we should get rid of for the sake of our happy
> families?-=-
>

On unschooling discussion someone mentioned the idea of keeping a
child occupied. It is from that idea that I offer, "Well, at least
they are being quiet." It isn't one you say to a child, it is one
that a parent offers to another parent expecting commiseration over
how hard it is to raise a child and that the good moments only come
when they aren't bothering you for amusement of one kind or another.

Schuyler

Joanna Wilkinson

> How about these also?
>
> Less "No, you can't" means more "Yes! You Can!"
>
> Less rules means more freedom.
>
> Less restrictions means more choices.
>
> Less limitations means more world to explore.
>
> Less chores and requirements means more time to do and learn what
we want.
>
> Less yelling and coercion means more happiness and kindness.
>
> Less criticism means more self-esteem and confidence.
>
> Susan (VA)
> http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html


I like these.
I like the phrase "Less is more."
It's never bothered me.
As for the phrase "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."
After going through things I thought would kill me, I thought the
phrase was stupid. I don't feel stronger at all, no matter how much
people tell me how strong I am. I feel much more fragile and weak
that I did before, when life felt easier and more carefree.
But, other people in my life took thier grief and created. My dad
created a lot out of his grief. He wrote songs, created a
foundation. He became inspired to do. So I think for some, maybe,
the phrase is true. There are so many different types in this
world, no phrase will fit all.

Joanna

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 19, 2006, at 7:38 AM, Joanna Wilkinson wrote:

> As for the phrase "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."
> After going through things I thought would kill me, I thought the
> phrase was stupid. I don't feel stronger at all, no matter how much
> people tell me how strong I am. I feel much more fragile and weak
> that I did before, when life felt easier and more carefree.

If "stronger" is just taken to mean that we know we "can" get
through a tragedy and get back to having a good life again - then,
yeah, fine. But that's not really "stronger." Each loss, each
disaster, that has happened in my life, has made me feel more
vulnerable, not less.

And, physically, it doesn't make sense at all - illnesses or injuries
that almost kill people do NOT leave them stronger - they very often
leave them weaker and often with long-term physical problems.

> But, other people in my life took thier grief and created. My dad
> created a lot out of his grief. He wrote songs, created a
> foundation. He became inspired to do. So I think for some, maybe,
> the phrase is true. There are so many different types in this
> world, no phrase will fit all.

It does seem that some people do things they never could have done if
they hadn't been struck by tragedy, doesn't it? I suppose it is that
they discover within themselves the ability to channel their strong
emotions into something creative or useful.

Still, I also dislike that expression because not only does it seem
untrue, it seems to be a negative judgment on people who do NOT get
stronger - like those who do not start foundations or build statues
or start running marathons are shirking. In reality, people are doing
really well if they respond to bad things happening in their lives by
turning their attention to living a satisfying life with family and
friends, keeping love and goodness in their lives.

-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 19, 2006, at 2:21 AM, Schuyler Waynforth wrote:

> It is from that idea that I offer, "Well, at least
> they are being quiet." It isn't one you say to a child, . . .

==================

Sometimes, though, I think unschoolers are relieved when they get
through a family dinner or holiday without having had the overt
criticism and probably say on the way home, of the older folks who'd
been there, "At least they kept quiet about it."

<bwg>

Sandra

Nancy Wooton

On Feb 18, 2006, at 12:39 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

>> -=- In my opinion, this phrase is used by people who want to
>> be stingy. Less is not more! More is more and less is less. -=-
>
>
> Standing, applauding, YES!
> Let's hear it for language, for logic, for clarity and honesty.

Unless what is less is teaching, and what is more is learning <g>

Nancy

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 19, 2006, at 4:40 PM, Nancy Wooton wrote:

> Unless what is less is teaching, and what is more is learning <g>


It's not what people mean when they say that, though.
It's too often used as a vague put-down.

Sandra

Verdena

--- In [email protected], "Emily" <emilikow@...> wrote:
>
> I'd love to read this list of phrases you opened with in the talk.
> Would you mind posting it? Or is it available elsewhere?
>
> Just to add my least favorite phrase: "It's ok." when a child is
> crying. If a child is crying, "it" is NOT ok. Otherwise the child
> wouldn't be crying. When parents say, "it's ok", to me it usually
> sounds more like they mean "PLEASE JUST SHUT UP AND STOP CRYING."
>
> Emily
>
Hi Emily,

I think that some phrases can mean different things in different
contexts or with different tones. For instance, if my little girl is
crying, I'll say, "it's ok", but I'm saying, "it's ok to cry and feel
as you do, I would too." And yes, sometimes I say all of that but
sometimes I know that by this point, I don't have to, she knows that I
honor her feelings and will listen to her.

Once, I heard myself saying, "just wait til your Daddy gets home." and
then I laughed right out loud because rather than a threat, I was
saying that we couldn't start in on the pie yet because we wanted to
share it so let's just wait. I laughed because it was one of those
moments when it really came home for me that I'm very different from
my parents.

Verdena

Nancy Wooton

On Feb 19, 2006, at 9:14 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

>
> On Feb 19, 2006, at 4:40 PM, Nancy Wooton wrote:
>
>> Unless what is less is teaching, and what is more is learning <g>
>
>
> It's not what people mean when they say that, though.
> It's too often used as a vague put-down.
>

Yeah, I know, hence the grin <g>

I've never thought of it in terms of material possessions, though I
really do think of it when teaching riding; it's a good reminder that
the less I babble, the more the student can learn from the feel of the
horse. Applying it to unschooling was facetious, since I don't teach
that ;-)

Nancy

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 20, 2006, at 11:20 AM, Nancy Wooton wrote:

> I've never thought of it in terms of material possessions, though I
> really do think of it when teaching riding; it's a good reminder that
> the less I babble, the more the student can learn from the feel of the
> horse.

==================

That's a good bridge between the meanings, I think. A little talk,
lots of experience, a little more talk...

Thanks for clarifying. I don't think twisting words for humorous
effect always gets us over the original dilemma (though I've done it
myself too). The "simple living" things I've seen and read seem
sometimes simple as to item count in a room, for instance, but VERY
complex as to acceptability of materials or places of origin, or
style or use or whatever all... lots of rules to create simplicity,
f'rinstance.

You're right; that's what I mean to say.


Sandra