Stubborn ain't the half of it!
judijeffliawyatt
Hi,
We have been unschooling our 10 yo daughter and 7 yo son for 2 years
now. Our son is taking to it just fine and has an incredible
curiosity, desire to explore and learn. If it is t.v., he watches
Discovery or the Science channels. He is active with karate and
triathlons which is plenty!
On the other hand there is our daughter. To her t.v. is distasteful
(in our eyes) cartoons fron 8am to 10pm daily! Pottery class is her
outside activity and she keeps frogs, saltwater fish and lizards as
her intersts dictate. These activites are second cartoons of course.
The puzzle lies in the fact that if our daughter even senses that she
is about to learn something outside her interest area she shuts
down. If we were to ask her the time she will not respond since it
could be construed as learning outside her field of interest. If we
ask her if she were to buy 5 additional fish then how many would she
have. She would then know she is being "tricked" into learning math
and will not respond. Many times in conversation you can see that
presented information is being thought of as learning and so ends the
discussion.
We are also ready to disallow cartoons. They have been the root of
so much family disruption(not eating dinner together, just 5 more
minites!!!, not taking care of other responsibilities first like
feeding pets.) and on and on. We have considered letting pets die
(we would need to lie if we let them go free) from lack of care as a
learning tool, yet we hate to see them suffer.
Well, that is enough, I guess, to get the picture, any ideas? We
will consider all options, if any. We "heard" that "if you think it
is bad now just wait a few years"
Thanks for listening,
Jeff & Judi
We have been unschooling our 10 yo daughter and 7 yo son for 2 years
now. Our son is taking to it just fine and has an incredible
curiosity, desire to explore and learn. If it is t.v., he watches
Discovery or the Science channels. He is active with karate and
triathlons which is plenty!
On the other hand there is our daughter. To her t.v. is distasteful
(in our eyes) cartoons fron 8am to 10pm daily! Pottery class is her
outside activity and she keeps frogs, saltwater fish and lizards as
her intersts dictate. These activites are second cartoons of course.
The puzzle lies in the fact that if our daughter even senses that she
is about to learn something outside her interest area she shuts
down. If we were to ask her the time she will not respond since it
could be construed as learning outside her field of interest. If we
ask her if she were to buy 5 additional fish then how many would she
have. She would then know she is being "tricked" into learning math
and will not respond. Many times in conversation you can see that
presented information is being thought of as learning and so ends the
discussion.
We are also ready to disallow cartoons. They have been the root of
so much family disruption(not eating dinner together, just 5 more
minites!!!, not taking care of other responsibilities first like
feeding pets.) and on and on. We have considered letting pets die
(we would need to lie if we let them go free) from lack of care as a
learning tool, yet we hate to see them suffer.
Well, that is enough, I guess, to get the picture, any ideas? We
will consider all options, if any. We "heard" that "if you think it
is bad now just wait a few years"
Thanks for listening,
Jeff & Judi
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/5/05 10:13:24 AM, jkeller5@... writes:
learning, you're just being critical.
If what she does is distasteful to you, she probably knows it. It would be
better for you and her and the relationship between you and her for you to
really, openly and honestly, look at her interests through her eyes. Find out
what she DOES like. Like it with her.
Don't think of her as "stubborn." It's negative.
Think of it as focussed or dedicated.
-=-Many times in conversation you can see that
presented information is being thought of as learning and so ends the
discussion.-=-
Then it has happened way too many times, and shouldn't be happening many
times.
-=-We are also ready to disallow cartoons. They have been the root of
so much family disruption(not eating dinner together, just 5 more
minites!!!,-=-
Record them so she can watch later.
Plan your dinner around her favorite shows. You would do that for your
husband, wouldn't you? Not call him to the table five minutes before the end of
West Wing or whatever he likes?
-=-ther responsibilities first like
feeding pets.) and on and on. We have considered letting pets die
(we would need to lie if we let them go free)-=-
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
You see pets as a learning tool?
How, then, do you see your children?
-=-Well, that is enough, I guess, to get the picture, any ideas? We
will consider all options, if any. We "heard" that "if you think it
is bad now just wait a few years"-=-
If you don't change your course, it will be worse tomorrow than today.
It's the parents who need to change, not the child.
-=-
The puzzle lies in the fact that if our daughter even senses that she
is about to learn something outside her interest area she shuts
down. -=-
That's not a puzzle. That is the root of the difference between someone
else imposing what is "educational" on a person, and the unschooling creation of
a rich, accepting, happy learning environment.
You can do it! Lots of people have done it.
Please do read through the informaton at the two links above, and then maybe
here if you're not tired of it at that point:
http://sandradodd.com/tv
If you understand unschooling better, it will start to work better
immediately. When it's working better, you'll understand it better. It will play
back and forth that way and keep improving.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-If weIf you konw she would know the answer, then you're not even tricking her into
> ask her if she were to buy 5 additional fish then how many would she
> have. She would then know she is being "tricked" into learning math
> and will not respond. -=-
>
learning, you're just being critical.
If what she does is distasteful to you, she probably knows it. It would be
better for you and her and the relationship between you and her for you to
really, openly and honestly, look at her interests through her eyes. Find out
what she DOES like. Like it with her.
Don't think of her as "stubborn." It's negative.
Think of it as focussed or dedicated.
-=-Many times in conversation you can see that
presented information is being thought of as learning and so ends the
discussion.-=-
Then it has happened way too many times, and shouldn't be happening many
times.
-=-We are also ready to disallow cartoons. They have been the root of
so much family disruption(not eating dinner together, just 5 more
minites!!!,-=-
Record them so she can watch later.
Plan your dinner around her favorite shows. You would do that for your
husband, wouldn't you? Not call him to the table five minutes before the end of
West Wing or whatever he likes?
-=-ther responsibilities first like
feeding pets.) and on and on. We have considered letting pets die
(we would need to lie if we let them go free)-=-
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
You see pets as a learning tool?
How, then, do you see your children?
-=-Well, that is enough, I guess, to get the picture, any ideas? We
will consider all options, if any. We "heard" that "if you think it
is bad now just wait a few years"-=-
If you don't change your course, it will be worse tomorrow than today.
It's the parents who need to change, not the child.
-=-
The puzzle lies in the fact that if our daughter even senses that she
is about to learn something outside her interest area she shuts
down. -=-
That's not a puzzle. That is the root of the difference between someone
else imposing what is "educational" on a person, and the unschooling creation of
a rich, accepting, happy learning environment.
You can do it! Lots of people have done it.
Please do read through the informaton at the two links above, and then maybe
here if you're not tired of it at that point:
http://sandradodd.com/tv
If you understand unschooling better, it will start to work better
immediately. When it's working better, you'll understand it better. It will play
back and forth that way and keep improving.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"On the other hand there is our daughter. To her t.v. is distasteful
(in our eyes) cartoons fron 8am to 10pm daily! Pottery class is her
outside activity and she keeps frogs, saltwater fish and lizards as
her intersts dictate. These activites are second cartoons of course."
There's a lot of negativity tied to your view about your dd's
interests. Her interests, including cartoons, are just as valid as
your ds's interests. If she loves cartoons, watch them with her, try
to understand them, help her access other aspects of this love and
become her ally, not her enemy.
Unschooling can not unfold in the way you read about here unless you
DO become their ally.
Try to let go of those negative perceptions, she is picking up on
that, I guarantee it! I'm sure she's feeling invalidated, because
her interests cause angst and distress, while her brothers get
positive feedback.
Feeling as though she may lose something she loves will cause her to
do it MORE, not less.
I had a really great conversation with Sandra last night about
healing through unschooling. I shared something Luz Shosie had
written, that I really, really love;
"We were all born with a drive to learn that is more compelling than
almost any other instinct. If we step back from the power struggles
we can be ALLIES with our children in learning, solving problems and
creating what John Holt called "a life worth living adn work worth
doing." Unschooling is deprogramming, healing, regenerating. It is
remembering to relax and trust our own and our children's innate
ability to choose ideas and activities that promote lifelong
learning and growth."
Beautiful.
Let your child SHINE (Anne Ohman's word) in your eyes. Trust that
she is capable, intelligent and worthy. Her interests matter,
whatever they may be. Don't try to push her to learn anything, just
let it unfold naturally....be her ally.
Ren
(in our eyes) cartoons fron 8am to 10pm daily! Pottery class is her
outside activity and she keeps frogs, saltwater fish and lizards as
her intersts dictate. These activites are second cartoons of course."
There's a lot of negativity tied to your view about your dd's
interests. Her interests, including cartoons, are just as valid as
your ds's interests. If she loves cartoons, watch them with her, try
to understand them, help her access other aspects of this love and
become her ally, not her enemy.
Unschooling can not unfold in the way you read about here unless you
DO become their ally.
Try to let go of those negative perceptions, she is picking up on
that, I guarantee it! I'm sure she's feeling invalidated, because
her interests cause angst and distress, while her brothers get
positive feedback.
Feeling as though she may lose something she loves will cause her to
do it MORE, not less.
I had a really great conversation with Sandra last night about
healing through unschooling. I shared something Luz Shosie had
written, that I really, really love;
"We were all born with a drive to learn that is more compelling than
almost any other instinct. If we step back from the power struggles
we can be ALLIES with our children in learning, solving problems and
creating what John Holt called "a life worth living adn work worth
doing." Unschooling is deprogramming, healing, regenerating. It is
remembering to relax and trust our own and our children's innate
ability to choose ideas and activities that promote lifelong
learning and growth."
Beautiful.
Let your child SHINE (Anne Ohman's word) in your eyes. Trust that
she is capable, intelligent and worthy. Her interests matter,
whatever they may be. Don't try to push her to learn anything, just
let it unfold naturally....be her ally.
Ren
Pam Sorooshian
On Sep 5, 2005, at 7:14 AM, judijeffliawyatt wrote:
instead of denigrating them?
Find out what her favorite cartoons are. Watch them with her. Rent
them so you can watch them in a "marathon" format. Find related
merchandise to buy. Have FUN with it. Dress up like cartoon
characters for Halloween (whole family). Plan a trip to an animation
studio - does she like Disney cartoons? Plan a trip to Disneyland and
California Adventure where they have a very cool animation studio
where kids get to engage in a bunch of animation activities.
You're missing something big if you don't recognize what cartoons
offer. Lots of cartoons have really significant themes - friendship,
danger, good versus evil, loyalty, and so on. Watch WITH her and look
for the FUN in it. Get the jokes. Laugh. Do NOT make it into a
lesson, but just make it a together time.
The cartoons might be a way to escape from you. You'll never find out
because you appear to be treating her as an adversary - she is
sensitive to you trying to manipulate her into learning. Stop that.
Be on her side. Love what she loves.
really want to model that, right? What DO you want to model?
My daughter has a hamster. It is in a nice big aquarium right in the
living room and I take good care of it. I change its water every
single day. I give it little treats - whenever I'm eating a piece of
fruit or veggie and cut off a little bit and give it to the hamster.
I feed it. I clean its cage.
My daughter is 14 and I still do all these things. Why? Because I
decided when we got it that it was going to be a source of joy to our
family, not something to fight over and certainly not something to
make my daughter feel ashamed about or like a failure. LOTS of times
I'll say, "Hey, Rosie, give the hamster some food." Or, "Rosie, come
help me change the hamster bedding." I don't interrupt her and I
don't insist and if she doesn't find time I just do it, happily.
It is NORMAL for kids not to take good care of pets. Why parents set
themselves up for a daily battle, by getting pets under the condition
that the children will care for them - is beyond me. A set up for a
kid to feel like a failure and everybody to end up with hard
feelings. What I try to do is share the enjoyment of taking care of
that sweet little hamster - if it isn't like that, then I don't ask
for help.
I suspect your thoughts are filled with, "But she 'should' take care
of her own pets." "But she shouldn't watch so much tv." "But she
should want to watch something better than cartoons." And so on.
You sound very angry at her that she's not rising to your
expectations. In fact, you sound angry at her for not "being" a
better person.
That's a pretty horrible reality for a child to have to live with -
her parents not thinking well of her, in general.
I really truly think that if you fix YOUR problem - change the way
you think of her (especially that she doesn't fare well in
comparisons to her brother) - you'll find that curiosity and love of
learning will slowly return to her.
But, you cannot MAKE that happen. What you can do is love her now -
SHOW that you love her by showing respect for her choices. And,
gently invite her to do things with you for the ENJOYMENT, not to
trick her into learning something.
Also - no more exaggeration. How can she watch tv from 8 am to 10 pm?
Do you NEVER go out of the house with her?
I'm really sad for you because you're missing out on the love and
laughter and closeness of these wonderful years. I so understand
being worried about our children - that they won't be prepared for
the future. I really do. But maybe you could just decide to take a
break from that worry, for now, for, say, one year. For one year just
focus on ONLY the positives and LOOK differently at everything and
try to see positives where you've never seen them. Think more about
cartoons - watch them. Think about what is so great about them. Find
some that you loved as a kid and rent them - my kids were pretty
amused at how excited I got when we bought a "Mighty Mouse" cartoon
from the dollar store. We watched it and I just laughed so hard - I
hadn't seen those cartoons for over 40 years. It was great. When
you've watched her cartoons with her and enjoyed them, a lot, maybe
you can introduce some new ones - "Kiko's Delivery Service" is a
wonderful Japanese animated movie - same guy who made "Spirited Away"
which is absolutely gorgeous and weird and may or may not be to her
taste.
Go on a Disney movie kick - get one every day and watch it as a
family. Have popcorn. Have fun. And let it go if that doesn't
interest her. Or just get it yourself and watch it and let her join
you or not.
Also - think about why she'd want to watch cartoons all the time?
What else is going on in the home? Cartoons are THE most attractive
thing to her, right now. Respect that - but you might wonder what
else MIGHT be attractive to her. How about horseback riding lessons?
Ice skating? Backpacking? Barbie dolls. Origami. Cooking.
Does she have friends? Do they sit and watch cartoons with her during
that 8 am to 10 pm time?
What else is going on? Is she depressed?
Please remember that how her parents think of her, now, is how she is
likely to think of herself, when she's an adult.
-pam
> We are also ready to disallow cartoons. They have been the root ofHow about taking the opposite approach and EMBRACE her interests
> so much family disruption(not eating dinner together, just 5 more
> minites!!!, not taking care of other responsibilities first like
> feeding pets.) and on and on.
instead of denigrating them?
Find out what her favorite cartoons are. Watch them with her. Rent
them so you can watch them in a "marathon" format. Find related
merchandise to buy. Have FUN with it. Dress up like cartoon
characters for Halloween (whole family). Plan a trip to an animation
studio - does she like Disney cartoons? Plan a trip to Disneyland and
California Adventure where they have a very cool animation studio
where kids get to engage in a bunch of animation activities.
You're missing something big if you don't recognize what cartoons
offer. Lots of cartoons have really significant themes - friendship,
danger, good versus evil, loyalty, and so on. Watch WITH her and look
for the FUN in it. Get the jokes. Laugh. Do NOT make it into a
lesson, but just make it a together time.
The cartoons might be a way to escape from you. You'll never find out
because you appear to be treating her as an adversary - she is
sensitive to you trying to manipulate her into learning. Stop that.
Be on her side. Love what she loves.
> We have considered letting pets dieYou're considering being very meanspirited. I'm pretty sure you don't
> (we would need to lie if we let them go free) from lack of care as a
> learning tool, yet we hate to see them suffer.
really want to model that, right? What DO you want to model?
My daughter has a hamster. It is in a nice big aquarium right in the
living room and I take good care of it. I change its water every
single day. I give it little treats - whenever I'm eating a piece of
fruit or veggie and cut off a little bit and give it to the hamster.
I feed it. I clean its cage.
My daughter is 14 and I still do all these things. Why? Because I
decided when we got it that it was going to be a source of joy to our
family, not something to fight over and certainly not something to
make my daughter feel ashamed about or like a failure. LOTS of times
I'll say, "Hey, Rosie, give the hamster some food." Or, "Rosie, come
help me change the hamster bedding." I don't interrupt her and I
don't insist and if she doesn't find time I just do it, happily.
It is NORMAL for kids not to take good care of pets. Why parents set
themselves up for a daily battle, by getting pets under the condition
that the children will care for them - is beyond me. A set up for a
kid to feel like a failure and everybody to end up with hard
feelings. What I try to do is share the enjoyment of taking care of
that sweet little hamster - if it isn't like that, then I don't ask
for help.
I suspect your thoughts are filled with, "But she 'should' take care
of her own pets." "But she shouldn't watch so much tv." "But she
should want to watch something better than cartoons." And so on.
You sound very angry at her that she's not rising to your
expectations. In fact, you sound angry at her for not "being" a
better person.
That's a pretty horrible reality for a child to have to live with -
her parents not thinking well of her, in general.
I really truly think that if you fix YOUR problem - change the way
you think of her (especially that she doesn't fare well in
comparisons to her brother) - you'll find that curiosity and love of
learning will slowly return to her.
But, you cannot MAKE that happen. What you can do is love her now -
SHOW that you love her by showing respect for her choices. And,
gently invite her to do things with you for the ENJOYMENT, not to
trick her into learning something.
Also - no more exaggeration. How can she watch tv from 8 am to 10 pm?
Do you NEVER go out of the house with her?
I'm really sad for you because you're missing out on the love and
laughter and closeness of these wonderful years. I so understand
being worried about our children - that they won't be prepared for
the future. I really do. But maybe you could just decide to take a
break from that worry, for now, for, say, one year. For one year just
focus on ONLY the positives and LOOK differently at everything and
try to see positives where you've never seen them. Think more about
cartoons - watch them. Think about what is so great about them. Find
some that you loved as a kid and rent them - my kids were pretty
amused at how excited I got when we bought a "Mighty Mouse" cartoon
from the dollar store. We watched it and I just laughed so hard - I
hadn't seen those cartoons for over 40 years. It was great. When
you've watched her cartoons with her and enjoyed them, a lot, maybe
you can introduce some new ones - "Kiko's Delivery Service" is a
wonderful Japanese animated movie - same guy who made "Spirited Away"
which is absolutely gorgeous and weird and may or may not be to her
taste.
Go on a Disney movie kick - get one every day and watch it as a
family. Have popcorn. Have fun. And let it go if that doesn't
interest her. Or just get it yourself and watch it and let her join
you or not.
Also - think about why she'd want to watch cartoons all the time?
What else is going on in the home? Cartoons are THE most attractive
thing to her, right now. Respect that - but you might wonder what
else MIGHT be attractive to her. How about horseback riding lessons?
Ice skating? Backpacking? Barbie dolls. Origami. Cooking.
Does she have friends? Do they sit and watch cartoons with her during
that 8 am to 10 pm time?
What else is going on? Is she depressed?
Please remember that how her parents think of her, now, is how she is
likely to think of herself, when she's an adult.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/5/05 10:58:23 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
Some parents are downright abusive to their kids while reciting the evil
mantra "it's for your own good."
It wouldn't hurt for parents to practice on pets. <g>
Practicing on kids is good too.
And what Ren and were discussing last night is that when parents are gentler
and more positive with their kids, they come to be happier, gentler and more
positive with and in themselve
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-It is NORMAL for kids not to take good care of pets.-=-Unfortunately, it's normal for parents not to take very good care of kids.
>
Some parents are downright abusive to their kids while reciting the evil
mantra "it's for your own good."
It wouldn't hurt for parents to practice on pets. <g>
Practicing on kids is good too.
And what Ren and were discussing last night is that when parents are gentler
and more positive with their kids, they come to be happier, gentler and more
positive with and in themselve
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
C Johnson
We "heard" that "if you think it
is bad now just wait a few years"
That is such a horrible thing for another parent to say. I love my children. The older they get the more interesting their personalities are.
Chrissie
judijeffliawyatt <jkeller5@...> wrote:
Hi,
We have been unschooling our 10 yo daughter and 7 yo son for 2 years
now. Our son is taking to it just fine and has an incredible
curiosity, desire to explore and learn. If it is t.v., he watches
Discovery or the Science channels. He is active with karate and
triathlons which is plenty!
On the other hand there is our daughter. To her t.v. is distasteful
(in our eyes) cartoons fron 8am to 10pm daily! Pottery class is her
outside activity and she keeps frogs, saltwater fish and lizards as
her intersts dictate. These activites are second cartoons of course.
The puzzle lies in the fact that if our daughter even senses that she
is about to learn something outside her interest area she shuts
down. If we were to ask her the time she will not respond since it
could be construed as learning outside her field of interest. If we
ask her if she were to buy 5 additional fish then how many would she
have. She would then know she is being "tricked" into learning math
and will not respond. Many times in conversation you can see that
presented information is being thought of as learning and so ends the
discussion.
We are also ready to disallow cartoons. They have been the root of
so much family disruption(not eating dinner together, just 5 more
minites!!!, not taking care of other responsibilities first like
feeding pets.) and on and on. We have considered letting pets die
(we would need to lie if we let them go free) from lack of care as a
learning tool, yet we hate to see them suffer.
Well, that is enough, I guess, to get the picture, any ideas? We
will consider all options, if any. We "heard" that "if you think it
is bad now just wait a few years"
Thanks for listening,
Jeff & Judi
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
is bad now just wait a few years"
That is such a horrible thing for another parent to say. I love my children. The older they get the more interesting their personalities are.
Chrissie
judijeffliawyatt <jkeller5@...> wrote:
Hi,
We have been unschooling our 10 yo daughter and 7 yo son for 2 years
now. Our son is taking to it just fine and has an incredible
curiosity, desire to explore and learn. If it is t.v., he watches
Discovery or the Science channels. He is active with karate and
triathlons which is plenty!
On the other hand there is our daughter. To her t.v. is distasteful
(in our eyes) cartoons fron 8am to 10pm daily! Pottery class is her
outside activity and she keeps frogs, saltwater fish and lizards as
her intersts dictate. These activites are second cartoons of course.
The puzzle lies in the fact that if our daughter even senses that she
is about to learn something outside her interest area she shuts
down. If we were to ask her the time she will not respond since it
could be construed as learning outside her field of interest. If we
ask her if she were to buy 5 additional fish then how many would she
have. She would then know she is being "tricked" into learning math
and will not respond. Many times in conversation you can see that
presented information is being thought of as learning and so ends the
discussion.
We are also ready to disallow cartoons. They have been the root of
so much family disruption(not eating dinner together, just 5 more
minites!!!, not taking care of other responsibilities first like
feeding pets.) and on and on. We have considered letting pets die
(we would need to lie if we let them go free) from lack of care as a
learning tool, yet we hate to see them suffer.
Well, that is enough, I guess, to get the picture, any ideas? We
will consider all options, if any. We "heard" that "if you think it
is bad now just wait a few years"
Thanks for listening,
Jeff & Judi
SPONSORED LINKS
American family home insurance American family home insurance company American family home owner insurance Multi family home for sale Single family home for sale Family home finance
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "AlwaysLearning" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given." Gandalf
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/5/05 5:03:07 PM, piscesmomx3@... writes:
And they're probably speaking from personal experience.
When parents create and maintain an adversarial relationship, it DOES get
worse as years go by.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-We "heard" that "if you think itThey love their children too, I'm sure.
> is bad now just wait a few years" -=-
>
> -=-That is such a horrible thing for another parent to say. I love my
> children. The older they get the more interesting their personalities are.-=-
>
And they're probably speaking from personal experience.
When parents create and maintain an adversarial relationship, it DOES get
worse as years go by.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<<On the other hand there is our daughter. To her t.v. is distasteful
(in our eyes) cartoons fron 8am to 10pm daily! Pottery class is her
outside activity and she keeps frogs, saltwater fish and lizards as
her intersts dictate. These activites are second cartoons of course.>>
*******************
Distasteful? Cartoons? I had a neighbor several years ago use this word. I
knew they were fairly strict parents who were more concerned about impressing
others than their children. So much so they thought our son and family was ill
suited for their sweet little girls.
Just yesterday, their oldest, walked down the road dressed in an all black
lace dress,black lace hat, a large lace black umbrella and black makeup. She
told my son last week that when she is 38 (no clue about the number) she was
going to hang herself in the family dining room in front of her kids.
Why? I don't know *yet but I suspect she is rebelling against her parents.
********************
<<The puzzle lies in the fact that if our daughter even senses that she
is about to learn something outside her interest area she shuts
down. If we were to ask her the time she will not respond since it
could be construed as learning outside her field of interest. If we
ask her if she were to buy 5 additional fish then how many would she
have. She would then know she is being "tricked" into learning math
and will not respond. Many times in conversation you can see that
presented information is being thought of as learning and so ends the
discussion.>>
**********************
This is classic for a child who attended public school. You may still see
this in two years. I would suggest changing your relationship with her. You need
to be her friend and playmate right now not her teacher.
************************
<<We are also ready to disallow cartoons. They have been the root of
so much family disruption(not eating dinner together, just 5 more
minites!!!, not taking care of other responsibilities first like
feeding pets.) and on and on.>>>
*************
This will bring you unhappy results for all. Maybe she would like to go
somewhere? Maybe as much as her brother but for her?
*********
<< We have considered letting pets die
(we would need to lie if we let them go free) from lack of care as a
learning tool, yet we hate to see them suffer. >>
**************
You know I had a situation a little over a year ago regarding pets. Ours was
a cat and litter box... The cat is no longer his job and his room smells
much nicer.. When parents buy pets they must know that in the end if the animal
is un-cared for the job becomes theirs. Why (knowing this now myself) would
you want to have weekly stress over something that can easily be
resolved/stopped?
******************************************
<<Well, that is enough, I guess, to get the picture, any ideas? We
will consider all options, if any. We "heard" that "if you think it
is bad now just wait a few years"
Thanks for listening,
Jeff & Judi>>
***
Jeff and Judi, my advice... get your daughter out of the house, talk to her
and get to know her before she gets to puberty and stops talking. It only gets
harder or worse when parents stop working at it and give up.
Laura~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(in our eyes) cartoons fron 8am to 10pm daily! Pottery class is her
outside activity and she keeps frogs, saltwater fish and lizards as
her intersts dictate. These activites are second cartoons of course.>>
*******************
Distasteful? Cartoons? I had a neighbor several years ago use this word. I
knew they were fairly strict parents who were more concerned about impressing
others than their children. So much so they thought our son and family was ill
suited for their sweet little girls.
Just yesterday, their oldest, walked down the road dressed in an all black
lace dress,black lace hat, a large lace black umbrella and black makeup. She
told my son last week that when she is 38 (no clue about the number) she was
going to hang herself in the family dining room in front of her kids.
Why? I don't know *yet but I suspect she is rebelling against her parents.
********************
<<The puzzle lies in the fact that if our daughter even senses that she
is about to learn something outside her interest area she shuts
down. If we were to ask her the time she will not respond since it
could be construed as learning outside her field of interest. If we
ask her if she were to buy 5 additional fish then how many would she
have. She would then know she is being "tricked" into learning math
and will not respond. Many times in conversation you can see that
presented information is being thought of as learning and so ends the
discussion.>>
**********************
This is classic for a child who attended public school. You may still see
this in two years. I would suggest changing your relationship with her. You need
to be her friend and playmate right now not her teacher.
************************
<<We are also ready to disallow cartoons. They have been the root of
so much family disruption(not eating dinner together, just 5 more
minites!!!, not taking care of other responsibilities first like
feeding pets.) and on and on.>>>
*************
This will bring you unhappy results for all. Maybe she would like to go
somewhere? Maybe as much as her brother but for her?
*********
<< We have considered letting pets die
(we would need to lie if we let them go free) from lack of care as a
learning tool, yet we hate to see them suffer. >>
**************
You know I had a situation a little over a year ago regarding pets. Ours was
a cat and litter box... The cat is no longer his job and his room smells
much nicer.. When parents buy pets they must know that in the end if the animal
is un-cared for the job becomes theirs. Why (knowing this now myself) would
you want to have weekly stress over something that can easily be
resolved/stopped?
******************************************
<<Well, that is enough, I guess, to get the picture, any ideas? We
will consider all options, if any. We "heard" that "if you think it
is bad now just wait a few years"
Thanks for listening,
Jeff & Judi>>
***
Jeff and Judi, my advice... get your daughter out of the house, talk to her
and get to know her before she gets to puberty and stops talking. It only gets
harder or worse when parents stop working at it and give up.
Laura~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
" We realize a lot of this is OUR problem, but please
don't tell me that we are the only ones making mistakes along this
huge adventure."
Well...I could tell you that, but I'd be a huge hypocrite. Yes, I make
mistakes plenty. But if someone posts a huge wad of negativity about
how they view their child, they should expect posts telling them to
shift how they think/act towards that child.
I'm not sure what else you'd expect here!:)
That doesn't mean I view your family as awful or horrible...anyone
even seeking unschooling or gentle parenting answers is miles ahead of
most families.
About the animals, I'm not sure how you got SO many animals without
regards to the other members of the family. It's one thing to honor
interests, it's something else entirely when those interests are
detracting from someone elses peace and joy.
Sometimes you have to get creative when one member loves animals and
someone else doesn't care for pets (I'm thinking of my own family),
like having a membership to the zoo, or frequenting pet stores, maybe
volunteering at a wildlife center etc...
Filling your home with something that causes friction and distress is
not the best way to honor her interest. I guess you all have figured
that out now, but need a way to creatively problem solve now that it's
too late!
If you sit down and discuss how it affects your dh, how the
responsibility is just too much for everyone and maybe try to find
some good homes for a few pets, would she be open to that? I don't
think it's fair for anyone to be surrounded by something they don't
like, sounds that aggravate them etc... My dh would be beside
himself...but that's why we discuss these issues BEFORE bringing any
animals into the house.
Balance is the goal...you all just need to find that balance again.
Ren
don't tell me that we are the only ones making mistakes along this
huge adventure."
Well...I could tell you that, but I'd be a huge hypocrite. Yes, I make
mistakes plenty. But if someone posts a huge wad of negativity about
how they view their child, they should expect posts telling them to
shift how they think/act towards that child.
I'm not sure what else you'd expect here!:)
That doesn't mean I view your family as awful or horrible...anyone
even seeking unschooling or gentle parenting answers is miles ahead of
most families.
About the animals, I'm not sure how you got SO many animals without
regards to the other members of the family. It's one thing to honor
interests, it's something else entirely when those interests are
detracting from someone elses peace and joy.
Sometimes you have to get creative when one member loves animals and
someone else doesn't care for pets (I'm thinking of my own family),
like having a membership to the zoo, or frequenting pet stores, maybe
volunteering at a wildlife center etc...
Filling your home with something that causes friction and distress is
not the best way to honor her interest. I guess you all have figured
that out now, but need a way to creatively problem solve now that it's
too late!
If you sit down and discuss how it affects your dh, how the
responsibility is just too much for everyone and maybe try to find
some good homes for a few pets, would she be open to that? I don't
think it's fair for anyone to be surrounded by something they don't
like, sounds that aggravate them etc... My dh would be beside
himself...but that's why we discuss these issues BEFORE bringing any
animals into the house.
Balance is the goal...you all just need to find that balance again.
Ren
carolyn
The discussion about having many animals (among other
things) made me think to ask my question here.
We already had 2 male cats (and 2 female dogs) when we
added a female cat last year. They're all
neutered/spayed.
Do male and female cats generally not get along? I've
tried everything I could think of. The boys chase the
girl daily, lunging at her when they get the chance
but she's a good jumper and no one has been hurt.
The cats are also spraying around the house here and
there. It's been like this since we got her but I'm
reaching my limit. Is this a hopeless situation or
does someone know something I can do to solve this?
Carolyn
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things) made me think to ask my question here.
We already had 2 male cats (and 2 female dogs) when we
added a female cat last year. They're all
neutered/spayed.
Do male and female cats generally not get along? I've
tried everything I could think of. The boys chase the
girl daily, lunging at her when they get the chance
but she's a good jumper and no one has been hurt.
The cats are also spraying around the house here and
there. It's been like this since we got her but I'm
reaching my limit. Is this a hopeless situation or
does someone know something I can do to solve this?
Carolyn
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Mary Cimo
We were told that a younger male and an older female would get along because
the male would be submissive, but that was not our experience. Our younger
(neutered) male was always paranoid and pouncing on the elderly
distinterested female. We lost her a couple of years ago, and he calmed down
considerably. I'm not sure what is generally true.
Mary
the male would be submissive, but that was not our experience. Our younger
(neutered) male was always paranoid and pouncing on the elderly
distinterested female. We lost her a couple of years ago, and he calmed down
considerably. I'm not sure what is generally true.
Mary
On 9/6/05, carolyn <caroln_1999@...> wrote:
>
> The discussion about having many animals (among other
> things) made me think to ask my question here.
>
> We already had 2 male cats (and 2 female dogs) when we
> added a female cat last year. They're all
> neutered/spayed.
>
> Do male and female cats generally not get along? I've
> tried everything I could think of. The boys chase the
> girl daily, lunging at her when they get the chance
> but she's a good jumper and no one has been hurt.
>
> The cats are also spraying around the house here and
> there. It's been like this since we got her but I'm
> reaching my limit. Is this a hopeless situation or
> does someone know something I can do to solve this?
>
> Carolyn
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Steve & Tracy Schad
Carolyn (and anyone else w/ cat issues),
Cats, like all creatures, can be complicated. Personality has as much to do
with it as gender and size. I recommend contacting Cats International. They
offer a free behavior hotline to help people with just such issues. If there
is a spraying/litterbox issue contact them sooner than later. I¹m guessing
they¹ll focus in on how to reduce stress for both these cats to help them
live peaceably together. It can be done.
http://www.catsinternational.org/contact/index.html
Good luck and best wishes,
Tracy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cats, like all creatures, can be complicated. Personality has as much to do
with it as gender and size. I recommend contacting Cats International. They
offer a free behavior hotline to help people with just such issues. If there
is a spraying/litterbox issue contact them sooner than later. I¹m guessing
they¹ll focus in on how to reduce stress for both these cats to help them
live peaceably together. It can be done.
http://www.catsinternational.org/contact/index.html
Good luck and best wishes,
Tracy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
They might not want to share a litter box. Maybe get a second one somewhere
else, or at least use the "multiple cats" kind of litter.
If the house is small they won't get along as week as if they can spread out.
Don't feed them all in one dish. Have several, and spread that out in the
area too, at least at the main feeding time or when you first put it down.
You can consolidate the leftovers, but expecting them to share food and a litter
box might be asking for trouble.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
else, or at least use the "multiple cats" kind of litter.
If the house is small they won't get along as week as if they can spread out.
Don't feed them all in one dish. Have several, and spread that out in the
area too, at least at the main feeding time or when you first put it down.
You can consolidate the leftovers, but expecting them to share food and a litter
box might be asking for trouble.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
C Johnson
Thank you Sandra. How true. I didn't think about it that way. Sometimes I live in a bubble and forget all parents are not like us.
Chrissie
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 9/5/05 5:03:07 PM, piscesmomx3@... writes:
And they're probably speaking from personal experience.
When parents create and maintain an adversarial relationship, it DOES get
worse as years go by.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Chrissie
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 9/5/05 5:03:07 PM, piscesmomx3@... writes:
> -=-We "heard" that "if you think itThey love their children too, I'm sure.
> is bad now just wait a few years" -=-
>
> -=-That is such a horrible thing for another parent to say. I love my
> children. The older they get the more interesting their personalities are.-=-
>
And they're probably speaking from personal experience.
When parents create and maintain an adversarial relationship, it DOES get
worse as years go by.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Moseley
I think cats are much more complicated than humans. We have 3 and they are so different. I have never enjoyed any animal as much as I have my kittys. I love just watching them. They should do a reality show that is just a house full of cats.
Laura M.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura M.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Moseley
Do male and female cats generally not get along?
We have 2 female cats and one male cat. All around the same age and all fixed. The female cats do not like the male. He on the other hand could care less. He is my sons cat and generally lives in his room, but he is also and inside/outside cat and when he walks through the house the females just look at him and hiss. They have never gone passed hissing, but they do hiss and it has been almost one year. We all get along though and make sure that nothing gets out of hand.
Laura M.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We have 2 female cats and one male cat. All around the same age and all fixed. The female cats do not like the male. He on the other hand could care less. He is my sons cat and generally lives in his room, but he is also and inside/outside cat and when he walks through the house the females just look at him and hiss. They have never gone passed hissing, but they do hiss and it has been almost one year. We all get along though and make sure that nothing gets out of hand.
Laura M.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555
> Do male and female cats generally not get along?I think it would depend alot on the individual cats. We have one male
and one female, both fixed. They are the same age, rescued both as
kittens and raised them together (they arent littermates though.)I've
rescued cats in the past, and never had a problem with any of them
fighting or not getting along, whether male or female, but they were
all fixed so that might be a factor as well. I would think that two
unneutered males might fight if there were a female present.
Katherine
S.Waynforth
Male cats kill unrelated kittens. Its one of the ways of getting to
have sex with the female. You kill her kittens and she'll come into
heat more quickly and then you get to have your own kittens with her.
It might make you a bit touchy to see a new guy around if you thought
he was going to attack you or your kittens. Lions and cheetahs do it
to. I'm not sure about other wild cats.
There is a book called The Tribe of the Tiger
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0752834711/qid=1126097930/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl/202-3545682-6231001)
by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas that looks at cats and their lives. She
wrote one about dogs as well--she's an anthropologist whose parents
lived with the !Kung when she was a child. Her brother wrote the book
Walkabout. Not that it has any bearing, but I like context.
Schuyler
--- In [email protected], Laura Moseley <lsam400803@y...>
wrote:
hand could care less. He is my sons cat and generally lives in his
room, but he is also and inside/outside cat and when he walks through
the house the females just look at him and hiss. They have never gone
passed hissing, but they do hiss and it has been almost one year. We
all get along though and make sure that nothing gets out of hand.
have sex with the female. You kill her kittens and she'll come into
heat more quickly and then you get to have your own kittens with her.
It might make you a bit touchy to see a new guy around if you thought
he was going to attack you or your kittens. Lions and cheetahs do it
to. I'm not sure about other wild cats.
There is a book called The Tribe of the Tiger
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0752834711/qid=1126097930/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl/202-3545682-6231001)
by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas that looks at cats and their lives. She
wrote one about dogs as well--she's an anthropologist whose parents
lived with the !Kung when she was a child. Her brother wrote the book
Walkabout. Not that it has any bearing, but I like context.
Schuyler
--- In [email protected], Laura Moseley <lsam400803@y...>
wrote:
> Do male and female cats generally not get along?all fixed. The female cats do not like the male. He on the other
>
> We have 2 female cats and one male cat. All around the same age and
hand could care less. He is my sons cat and generally lives in his
room, but he is also and inside/outside cat and when he walks through
the house the females just look at him and hiss. They have never gone
passed hissing, but they do hiss and it has been almost one year. We
all get along though and make sure that nothing gets out of hand.
>
> Laura M.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Male cats don't ALWAYS kill unrelated kittens. "Might" or "have been known
to" or "might find it biologically advantageous" would be truer than "Male
cats kill unrelated kittens."
I've never known one to do so, and have had a male cat around a litter of
kittens not his own more than once.
I've known dogs kill a kitten twice by trying to move them like the mom cat
does--by gently trying to pick the cat up, but not being able to do it.
(Well... did it with some and failed with others.) I don't know why the dogs were
moving the kittens one by one. Once (years ago) a dog was moving them from
the inside of the house to an outside house (guest house). More recently,
Kirby was here and I wasn't, and the dog was moving them from a closet to
another room. Putting them back where the mom cat had had them the first time.
Female dog.
Schuyler, do you think a fixed male (i.e. surgically broken male) would have
the same instincts as an intact one? Do they know where the urge arises?
(nuts or brains?)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to" or "might find it biologically advantageous" would be truer than "Male
cats kill unrelated kittens."
I've never known one to do so, and have had a male cat around a litter of
kittens not his own more than once.
I've known dogs kill a kitten twice by trying to move them like the mom cat
does--by gently trying to pick the cat up, but not being able to do it.
(Well... did it with some and failed with others.) I don't know why the dogs were
moving the kittens one by one. Once (years ago) a dog was moving them from
the inside of the house to an outside house (guest house). More recently,
Kirby was here and I wasn't, and the dog was moving them from a closet to
another room. Putting them back where the mom cat had had them the first time.
Female dog.
Schuyler, do you think a fixed male (i.e. surgically broken male) would have
the same instincts as an intact one? Do they know where the urge arises?
(nuts or brains?)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
S.Waynforth
I didn't say they always did, just that they do. And female cats may
be more wary of new male cats (whether they are intact or not) because
male cats do kill kittens--not always, and have been known to and
might find it biologically advantageous ;>.
be more wary of new male cats (whether they are intact or not) because
male cats do kill kittens--not always, and have been known to and
might find it biologically advantageous ;>.
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> Male cats don't ALWAYS kill unrelated kittens. "Might" or "have
been known
> to" or "might find it biologically advantageous" would be truer than
"Male
> cats kill unrelated kittens."
>
> Schuyler, do you think a fixed male (i.e. surgically broken male)
would have
> the same instincts as an intact one? Do they know where the urge
arises?
> (nuts or brains?)
>
> Sandra
It may vary by the age at which the male was fixed. I've known male
neutered cats who still sprayed--and a quick google search says 10% of
neutered males spray, as do 5% of spayed females--but I would assume
that the drive to reproduce would change when there weren't any
testicles producing testosterone. Have you ever seen pictures of male
Castrati (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato)? Here's the last
recording of Allessandro Moreschi
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_Moreschi):
http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-castrato_recording.html. Or the
eunuchs of China (http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-eunuchs_china.html)?
There is a complete lack of post-pubescent male cues. Testosterone is
a big drug with huge behavioral changes associated. Apparently in
Europe castration has been used to "treat" sex offenders with a change
in recidivism from 46 percent to 3 percent according to one German
study (http://www.utmb.edu/imh/announcements.asp?id=67). So, maybe
that which works in humans would also work in cats? With a recidivism
rate of 3 to 7%?
Aha--here is a paper on infanticide among rats that states:
"The presence of testosterone in the young male rat is implicated in
infanticidal behavior. Male rats castrated while young are much less
likely to kill newborn rats than intact controls (32% of castrates
kill strange newborns, compared with 79.5% of intact males), but if
they are given replacement injections of testosterone their
infanticidal behavior resembles that of intact rats (76% are
infanticidal: Rosenberg et al. 1974)."
http://www.ratbehavior.org/infanticide.htm
Sounds like it is in the nuts.
So, probably not as likely to, and if the risks are relatively low to
begin with--and I can't find any data online giving me rates--then it
should be that much lower in neutered males.
I found one article
(http://www.bsas.org.uk/downloads/annlproc/Pdf2003/016.pdf) looking at
affiliative behaviour (e.g. allogroom, rub cat, miaow) in cats that
found that the presence of kittens only mildly increased defensive
interactions while increasing vigilance and what they called
affiliative behaviours among a group of 9 adult cats living in a two
story house. The lack of much change in aggressive interactions when
kittens were added to the interactions might mean that even without
the presence of male hormones the two female cats would hiss at the tom.
Schuyler
queenjane555
> I didn't say they always did, just that they do.Thats interesting...i've heard of male lions who recently take over
the pride(kill or chase off the top lion)killing the offspring of
that
top lion. I've never heard of a pet male domestic cat killing a new
kitten brought into the family. I've had dozens of cats (rescues)and
never even had two cats fight let alone one kill another. Not saying
it "never" happens (obviously in your experience it does), but i dont
think its a normal response for a pet cat to kill a kitten, and would
venture to say its unusual.
Katherine
Julie W
carolyn wrote:
My cats all hate each other. Nico and Storm (females) are litter mates
and tolerate each other. Mr. Kitty is a 1/2 brother from another litter
who is a sweetie and would cuddle and clean his male litter mates, but
they are gone ~sniff~ and the ladies hiss at him all the time. Poor boy.
Alley Cat is the mom and hates the whole bunch. Of course she does not
like anyone except for me.
Kitty pics:
http://photobucket.com/albums/v73/jjjwoolfolk/Cats/
The cuteness will overpower you......
--
Julie W (The Zaftig Goddess)
http://stores.ebay.com/The-Zaftig-Goddess_W0QQsspagenameZMEQ3aFQ3aSTQQtZkm
<%3Fhttp://stores.ebay.com/The-Zaftig-Goddess_W0QQsspagenameZMEQ3aFQ3aSTQQtZkm%3F>
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The Homeschool Zone
http://www.freewebs.com/thehomeschoolzone/index.htm
*"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one
half so bad as a lot of ignorance."*
* *
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>The discussion about having many animals (among otherIf males spray it is because they got "fixed" too late.
>things) made me think to ask my question here.
>
>We already had 2 male cats (and 2 female dogs) when we
>added a female cat last year. They're all
>neutered/spayed.
>
>Do male and female cats generally not get along? I've
>tried everything I could think of. The boys chase the
>girl daily, lunging at her when they get the chance
>but she's a good jumper and no one has been hurt.
>
>The cats are also spraying around the house here and
>there. It's been like this since we got her but I'm
>reaching my limit. Is this a hopeless situation or
>does someone know something I can do to solve this?
>
>
My cats all hate each other. Nico and Storm (females) are litter mates
and tolerate each other. Mr. Kitty is a 1/2 brother from another litter
who is a sweetie and would cuddle and clean his male litter mates, but
they are gone ~sniff~ and the ladies hiss at him all the time. Poor boy.
Alley Cat is the mom and hates the whole bunch. Of course she does not
like anyone except for me.
Kitty pics:
http://photobucket.com/albums/v73/jjjwoolfolk/Cats/
The cuteness will overpower you......
--
Julie W (The Zaftig Goddess)
http://stores.ebay.com/The-Zaftig-Goddess_W0QQsspagenameZMEQ3aFQ3aSTQQtZkm
<%3Fhttp://stores.ebay.com/The-Zaftig-Goddess_W0QQsspagenameZMEQ3aFQ3aSTQQtZkm%3F>
Live and Learn
http://www.geocities.com/live-and-learn.geo/
The Homeschool Zone
http://www.freewebs.com/thehomeschoolzone/index.htm
*"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one
half so bad as a lot of ignorance."*
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S.Waynforth
I've never seen it nor experienced it nor had a friend who told me
stories of it. My experience is based entirely on some ancient
British television show that PBS used to show as filler that mentioned
infanticide in cats. I think it was based on a paper by D.W. McDonald
that I kept stumbling on when I was doing a google search. However, I
did find the abstract below with real data and real experience of some
field biologists:
Title: Infanticide in rural male cats (Felis catus L.) as a
reproductive mating tactic
Author(s): Pontier D, Natoli E
Source: AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR 25 (6): 445-449 1999
Document Type: Article
Language: English
Cited References: 25 Times Cited: 6 Find Related Records
Information
Abstract: Here we report six cases of infanticide in the domestic cat
directly observed in populations located in the rural environment.
This is the first time that infanticide in domestic cats has been
witnessed directly and described. All infanticidal males were fully
adult and sexually mature unknown males. All kittens killed were
within their first week of life. The killing pattern was generally the
same as that described in lions. All females reacted aggressively but
could not prevent the infanticide. Three hypotheses are discussed :
(1) infanticide is a remnant of cat male reproductive strategy
selected in the original environment; (2) the conditions of the rural
environment have created a selection pressure encouraging a
polymorphism of infanticidal and noninfanticidal males to evolve; (3)
infanticide is an abnormal behaviour caused by environmental
conditions such as human disturbance. (C) 1999 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
--- In [email protected], "queenjane555"
<queenjane555@y...> wrote:
stories of it. My experience is based entirely on some ancient
British television show that PBS used to show as filler that mentioned
infanticide in cats. I think it was based on a paper by D.W. McDonald
that I kept stumbling on when I was doing a google search. However, I
did find the abstract below with real data and real experience of some
field biologists:
Title: Infanticide in rural male cats (Felis catus L.) as a
reproductive mating tactic
Author(s): Pontier D, Natoli E
Source: AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR 25 (6): 445-449 1999
Document Type: Article
Language: English
Cited References: 25 Times Cited: 6 Find Related Records
Information
Abstract: Here we report six cases of infanticide in the domestic cat
directly observed in populations located in the rural environment.
This is the first time that infanticide in domestic cats has been
witnessed directly and described. All infanticidal males were fully
adult and sexually mature unknown males. All kittens killed were
within their first week of life. The killing pattern was generally the
same as that described in lions. All females reacted aggressively but
could not prevent the infanticide. Three hypotheses are discussed :
(1) infanticide is a remnant of cat male reproductive strategy
selected in the original environment; (2) the conditions of the rural
environment have created a selection pressure encouraging a
polymorphism of infanticidal and noninfanticidal males to evolve; (3)
infanticide is an abnormal behaviour caused by environmental
conditions such as human disturbance. (C) 1999 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
--- In [email protected], "queenjane555"
<queenjane555@y...> wrote:
> > I didn't say they always did, just that they do.
>
> Thats interesting...i've heard of male lions who recently take over
> the pride(kill or chase off the top lion)killing the offspring of
> that
> top lion. I've never heard of a pet male domestic cat killing a new
> kitten brought into the family. I've had dozens of cats (rescues)and
> never even had two cats fight let alone one kill another. Not saying
> it "never" happens (obviously in your experience it does), but i dont
> think its a normal response for a pet cat to kill a kitten, and would
> venture to say its unusual.
>
>
> Katherine
[email protected]
> -=-I've never heard of a pet male domestic cat killing a newI agree, and seeing more details of the study, I'm not surprised that it was
> kitten brought into the family. I've had dozens of cats (rescues)and
> never even had two cats fight let alone one kill another. Not saying
> it "never" happens (obviously in your experience it does), but i dont
> think its a normal response for a pet cat to kill a kitten, and would
> venture to say its unusual.-=-
>
"rural cats" which I take to mean farm cats or barn cats--cats that live with
humans, but not in the house as lap-cats, fed canned food, trained not to
scratch the couch. "Having cats" the way my grandmother did was way different
from people having cats that never go outside, wear collars, etc. Somewhere in
there, I think instinct weakens. Lack of example or lack of normal feline
behavior from the other cats or something, I don't know.
My cats are fed inside and have a litter box (two) but also can go out a pet
door, so they're inside/outside cats.
"In the wild," my dog wouldn't have a pet cat. One of our cats, though,
took up with the dog when she was a kitten and they're still buddies.
Sandra
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