[AlwaysLearning] Unhealthy Relatives or Other Folks/Spanking
Nanci Kuykendall
I can totally relate with you on the dilema of
unhealthy relatives. Our choice was to live at a
distance, see them seldom, and control the environment
and terms on which we do see them. These combined
factors have allowed our children to know their
grandparents (for instance) in a healthy way while
remaining unaffected by their negative and unhealthy
behaviors. We don't allow these relatives to have our
kids overnight alone or to babysit them, nor do we
plan extended visits at their homes. When visiting us
they stay elsewhere nearby (camping, hotel, etc) and
we limit visits to a few days maximum. Public/neutral
territory to meet on is a very good thing as well.
As Sandra suggested, we gave our extended family the
ultimatum of either treating us with decency and
respect or not seeing us at all, and then stopped all
visits (maintaining amicable letter/picture/phone
contact) for two years to give them time to mull this
over and take us seriously or not and/or adjust their
interactions with us, as well as give us time to heal
and cope with past issues with these folks within
ourselves. This time span was not a punishment to
them, but a much needed physical and emotional break
from each other. I believe it's easier after such a
break (not necessarily 2 years, but it should be a
good deal longer in comparison to whatever the normal
interval has been between visits and interactions) for
both parties to "start fresh" without real or imagined
injuries fresh in the mind and with the courteous
distance of relatives who have not seen each other for
a while allowing you to set a new tone to your
interactions for the future. Your mileage may vary on
this idea. We also offered literature as Sandra
suggests and said we'd be happy to discuss it after
they had read it ("Put up or shut up") Refusing to
fight about it is a good idea. Who cares what they
say or think anyway? If they can't be reasonable,
mature and decent, don't put any weight in what they
say.
As far as holidays go, we choose to stay home on
holidays for many reasons such as creating our own
special traditions, basking in quiet family
togetherness without stress and conflict, not desiring
to travel during poor weather and peak traffic
congestion, not enjoying hectic crowded events,
avoiding drunken relatives, and more easily catering
to our certain family members' specific special
medical and dietary needs. With the medical and
dietary needs as a consideration and the travel
weather factor for us over two mountain ranges it's
easy enough for us to make our excuses without
offending anyone.
It really means that children are not permitted to
relate to adults on the level of equal human beings,
and not allowed to question authority or orders given
or discipline meted out. I just finished reading
James Dobson's The Strong Willed Child and I am still
dizzily digging my way out from under all the self
righteous slag and King James scripture. Amusingly,
his books concepts are mainly backed up and
illustrated by his quoting of himself in his own
previous books or tapes (when he's not quoting
scriptures that is.) This book, for those not
familiar with it, is a handbook for fundamentalist
Christians in the correct manner for administering
corporal punishment (beatings with a switch or belt
recommended, as well as other nerve or muscle pinches
advised) to children "at every instance of
disobedience." James Dobson, FYI, is a PhD clinical
psychologist,- marriage, family and child counselor,
has been a staff professor and attending physician in
prestegious children's hospitals and universitites and
is the founder of the Focus on the Family organization
which produces a worldwide radio program among other
things.
The book recommends not beginning corporal punishment
until children are over 6 months of age, and that one
should "take great care" with large teenagers as
attempting corporal punishment with them can have
dangerous results. I'll say! They are big enough to
defend themselves! The book explains that this method
is critical in "good Christian" homes because
otherwise the children will not grow up to submit
themselves to every authority in their lives such as
bosses, landlords, professors and so forth, but
chiefly so they can "submit themselves to the
authority of God." He repeatedly asserts that without
threat of looming punishment even adults would not
behave themselves. He also repeatedly refers to
children as brats, which I think is telling. He uses
his own family and children as his chief and only
named examples of proper techniques and discipline,
gives entire long speeches which parents are to
utilize verbatim with their children, (he suggests
making copies of these as well as charts in the book)
and of course also explains how responding to infant
cries "too readily" will create a spoiled and
manipulative child.
It was like a 240 page peep show window into a certain
broad cross section of American culture that is pretty
scary to behold, particularly in light of the current
administration. The question and answer sections in
each chapter with "real questions from readers" was
particularly interesting. Dobson even does some John
Holt bashing, which I found wryly amusing.
My husband was asking me why I was "wasting my time"
reading it, was I rubbernecking the train wreck of it
or what? But you can't make intelligent arguments
against something without being educated on the
subject. This book has sold millions of copies and is
considered a "moderate" not an extreme pro spanking
book. I feel kinda dirtied now that I've finished it
though, so I think I better read something else to
cleanse my brain. Any suggestions folks?
unequivocally trust our family with our child in a big
fuzzy happy village of love. But reality intrudes and
we need to do what we need to do to ensure the
physical and emotional safety of our children.
silently suffering and allowing your children to
suffer. If you feel the loss of a larger family
group, begin building a new family of choice around
yourself of friends and their families of various ages
whom you CAN trust your child and yourself with.
Families are built by love and there are many people
in them not blood related to each other. In a family
of choice there's more love, less blood, in more ways
than one.
Dobson's work, who states that the claims of spanking
begetting a cycle of violence are "Poppycock!" but
doesn't back that up with much reality of course.
Train wreck indeed.
patient mommy tendancies or building communication and
trust with your child any favors either. Why people
abuse themselves in the name of "family" in this way
is baffling to me. Just don't do it. Send pictures,
letters, cards, phone calls from kids to Grandma or
Aunt Betty or Uncle Joe, but keep your distance for
health and sanity's sake!
Ooooo, that's ballsy. I never know where to draw that
line at what to tell people they can and can't do to
their kids in my home. It's good to know that you
draw the line there and I can use your example to
bolster my courage. What do you do about people
telling their kids what they can and can't eat and do
while in your home, both when the parents are present,
or as pre drop off instructions? I know this topic
has come up here before but I can't remember the
details.
that
Glad I'm not the only one.
Nanci K.
unhealthy relatives. Our choice was to live at a
distance, see them seldom, and control the environment
and terms on which we do see them. These combined
factors have allowed our children to know their
grandparents (for instance) in a healthy way while
remaining unaffected by their negative and unhealthy
behaviors. We don't allow these relatives to have our
kids overnight alone or to babysit them, nor do we
plan extended visits at their homes. When visiting us
they stay elsewhere nearby (camping, hotel, etc) and
we limit visits to a few days maximum. Public/neutral
territory to meet on is a very good thing as well.
As Sandra suggested, we gave our extended family the
ultimatum of either treating us with decency and
respect or not seeing us at all, and then stopped all
visits (maintaining amicable letter/picture/phone
contact) for two years to give them time to mull this
over and take us seriously or not and/or adjust their
interactions with us, as well as give us time to heal
and cope with past issues with these folks within
ourselves. This time span was not a punishment to
them, but a much needed physical and emotional break
from each other. I believe it's easier after such a
break (not necessarily 2 years, but it should be a
good deal longer in comparison to whatever the normal
interval has been between visits and interactions) for
both parties to "start fresh" without real or imagined
injuries fresh in the mind and with the courteous
distance of relatives who have not seen each other for
a while allowing you to set a new tone to your
interactions for the future. Your mileage may vary on
this idea. We also offered literature as Sandra
suggests and said we'd be happy to discuss it after
they had read it ("Put up or shut up") Refusing to
fight about it is a good idea. Who cares what they
say or think anyway? If they can't be reasonable,
mature and decent, don't put any weight in what they
say.
As far as holidays go, we choose to stay home on
holidays for many reasons such as creating our own
special traditions, basking in quiet family
togetherness without stress and conflict, not desiring
to travel during poor weather and peak traffic
congestion, not enjoying hectic crowded events,
avoiding drunken relatives, and more easily catering
to our certain family members' specific special
medical and dietary needs. With the medical and
dietary needs as a consideration and the travel
weather factor for us over two mountain ranges it's
easy enough for us to make our excuses without
offending anyone.
>> I, too, didn't understand what was meant >>my"talking back."
It really means that children are not permitted to
relate to adults on the level of equal human beings,
and not allowed to question authority or orders given
or discipline meted out. I just finished reading
James Dobson's The Strong Willed Child and I am still
dizzily digging my way out from under all the self
righteous slag and King James scripture. Amusingly,
his books concepts are mainly backed up and
illustrated by his quoting of himself in his own
previous books or tapes (when he's not quoting
scriptures that is.) This book, for those not
familiar with it, is a handbook for fundamentalist
Christians in the correct manner for administering
corporal punishment (beatings with a switch or belt
recommended, as well as other nerve or muscle pinches
advised) to children "at every instance of
disobedience." James Dobson, FYI, is a PhD clinical
psychologist,- marriage, family and child counselor,
has been a staff professor and attending physician in
prestegious children's hospitals and universitites and
is the founder of the Focus on the Family organization
which produces a worldwide radio program among other
things.
The book recommends not beginning corporal punishment
until children are over 6 months of age, and that one
should "take great care" with large teenagers as
attempting corporal punishment with them can have
dangerous results. I'll say! They are big enough to
defend themselves! The book explains that this method
is critical in "good Christian" homes because
otherwise the children will not grow up to submit
themselves to every authority in their lives such as
bosses, landlords, professors and so forth, but
chiefly so they can "submit themselves to the
authority of God." He repeatedly asserts that without
threat of looming punishment even adults would not
behave themselves. He also repeatedly refers to
children as brats, which I think is telling. He uses
his own family and children as his chief and only
named examples of proper techniques and discipline,
gives entire long speeches which parents are to
utilize verbatim with their children, (he suggests
making copies of these as well as charts in the book)
and of course also explains how responding to infant
cries "too readily" will create a spoiled and
manipulative child.
It was like a 240 page peep show window into a certain
broad cross section of American culture that is pretty
scary to behold, particularly in light of the current
administration. The question and answer sections in
each chapter with "real questions from readers" was
particularly interesting. Dobson even does some John
Holt bashing, which I found wryly amusing.
My husband was asking me why I was "wasting my time"
reading it, was I rubbernecking the train wreck of it
or what? But you can't make intelligent arguments
against something without being educated on the
subject. This book has sold millions of copies and is
considered a "moderate" not an extreme pro spanking
book. I feel kinda dirtied now that I've finished it
though, so I think I better read something else to
cleanse my brain. Any suggestions folks?
>We (me and dh) find ourselves unceremoniously andIt's a good thing to do. It hurts because we want to
>quietly putting on the shelf family members we can't
>leave ds with.
unequivocally trust our family with our child in a big
fuzzy happy village of love. But reality intrudes and
we need to do what we need to do to ensure the
physical and emotional safety of our children.
> This is an ongoing diplomatic process that isThe silent stalemate is better than the bloody feud or
>resulting in a silent stalemate.
silently suffering and allowing your children to
suffer. If you feel the loss of a larger family
group, begin building a new family of choice around
yourself of friends and their families of various ages
whom you CAN trust your child and yourself with.
Families are built by love and there are many people
in them not blood related to each other. In a family
of choice there's more love, less blood, in more ways
than one.
> I can't help but see that there's no need to hitThis notion of course is in direct opposition to
>any child but the oldest, since spanking works it's
>way to the youngest in unbroken chain from child to
>child (and from child to pet or object when no
>person is available), a transfer of violence
>downward through the ages.
Dobson's work, who states that the claims of spanking
begetting a cycle of violence are "Poppycock!" but
doesn't back that up with much reality of course.
Train wreck indeed.
>spanking is contagious and I need to get away fromI'm sure the stress of being there is not doing your
>it.
patient mommy tendancies or building communication and
trust with your child any favors either. Why people
abuse themselves in the name of "family" in this way
is baffling to me. Just don't do it. Send pictures,
letters, cards, phone calls from kids to Grandma or
Aunt Betty or Uncle Joe, but keep your distance for
health and sanity's sake!
>I told a family once they could NOT spank theirSandra
>child in my house, when they threatened. I don't
>want my kids to have to see it; it's just too
>disturbing.
Ooooo, that's ballsy. I never know where to draw that
line at what to tell people they can and can't do to
their kids in my home. It's good to know that you
draw the line there and I can use your example to
bolster my courage. What do you do about people
telling their kids what they can and can't eat and do
while in your home, both when the parents are present,
or as pre drop off instructions? I know this topic
has come up here before but I can't remember the
details.
>I used to get hyper vigilant about my kids' behaviorover->controlling their own kids and being irritated
>when I was in a place where the others were
that
>mine were there. I really wanted mine to just notSandra
>make waves, don't rock the boat, and I'd be sharp
>and impatient in those instances, but they
>always understood during the debrief in the car
>afterward (or wherever) why I was nervous
>in such situations.
Glad I'm not the only one.
Nanci K.
nellebelle
>>>>>>>My husband was asking me why I was "wasting my time"reading it, was I rubbernecking the train wreck of it
or what? But you can't make intelligent arguments
against something without being educated on the
subject. This book has sold millions of copies and is
considered a "moderate" not an extreme pro spanking
book.>>>>>>>>>>>>
His weekly column is featured in our local newspaper. I read it to see what drivel he recommends. I once wrote a letter to the editor against spanking, in response to one of his columns.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/27/05 8:25:30 PM, aisliin@... writes:
considered documentation and research?
-=- He repeatedly asserts that without
threat of looming punishment even adults would not
behave themselves. -=-
I guess my godless husband is a better man than Dobson is. He behaves very
well without being afraid of much or many.
-=- He also repeatedly refers to
children as brats, which I think is telling. -=-
Eeeyew.
-=-What do you do about people
telling their kids what they can and can't eat and do
while in your home, both when the parents are present,
or as pre drop off instructions?-=-
Often I make pained faces at the mom behind the kid's back (like she's at the
door looking in, and the kid can't see me and I'm doing the "You gotta be
kidding" looks <g>). If it's someone I know well and they know me well,
there's way less of any of that stuff.
When the kids were younger there was more, and I'd let the mom do all her
speech, but I never felt bound by it.
We kept some kids once for a long day and the parents said we should spank
them if they were bad and I said nah, I didn't think so, so she said that's
fine, just tell them what the kids did wrong when they picked them up. Nothing
happened that I felt like reporting. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> James Dobson, FYI, is a PhD clinicalYeah, but is it from a Christian University where quoting the Bible is
> psychologist,- marriage, family and child counselor,
>
considered documentation and research?
-=- He repeatedly asserts that without
threat of looming punishment even adults would not
behave themselves. -=-
I guess my godless husband is a better man than Dobson is. He behaves very
well without being afraid of much or many.
-=- He also repeatedly refers to
children as brats, which I think is telling. -=-
Eeeyew.
-=-What do you do about people
telling their kids what they can and can't eat and do
while in your home, both when the parents are present,
or as pre drop off instructions?-=-
Often I make pained faces at the mom behind the kid's back (like she's at the
door looking in, and the kid can't see me and I'm doing the "You gotta be
kidding" looks <g>). If it's someone I know well and they know me well,
there's way less of any of that stuff.
When the kids were younger there was more, and I'd let the mom do all her
speech, but I never felt bound by it.
We kept some kids once for a long day and the parents said we should spank
them if they were bad and I said nah, I didn't think so, so she said that's
fine, just tell them what the kids did wrong when they picked them up. Nothing
happened that I felt like reporting. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Jun 27, 2005, at 7:25 PM, Nanci Kuykendall wrote:
Or - The Parent/Teen Breakthrough: A Relationship Approach by Mira
Kirshenbaum
-pam
> I feel kinda dirtied now that I've finished itUnconditional Parenting? Alfie Kohn
> though, so I think I better read something else to
> cleanse my brain. Any suggestions folks?
Or - The Parent/Teen Breakthrough: A Relationship Approach by Mira
Kirshenbaum
-pam
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<I can totally relate with you on the dilema of
unhealthy relatives. Our choice was to live at a
distance, see them seldom, and control the environment
and terms on which we do see them. >>>>
This was pretty much how we dealt with my mother when she was alive. She
passed away last January, as I have posted before I think. She lived in
Galveston, TX and one of her great aspirations was to have us also move
there - fat chance!
When she would start displaying her ignorance on the phone I would
immediately end the conversation - nicely but at once. EG: She: Jayn should
be writing her name by now. Me: No she shouldn't good bye Mum I love you
talk to you soon. Click.
Then I would send her a website from a source that she would likely respect
(this was crucial) on the topic. Usually I would get an apologetic or at
least respectful email after a few days. It really was ignorance on her
part, rather than rigidity. I can't remember what I sent her about the early
name writing.
In terms of sources she would respect the example I can always remember is
about breast feeding - I sent her the page from American Academy of
Pediatrics since she had a lot of respect for Doctors like her dh.
<<<<This time span was not a punishment to
them, but a much needed physical and emotional break
from each other. I believe it's easier after such a
break (not necessarily 2 years, but it should be a
good deal longer in comparison to whatever the normal
interval has been between visits and interactions) for
both parties to "start fresh" without real or imagined
injuries fresh in the mind and with the courteous
distance of relatives who have not seen each other for
a while allowing you to set a new tone to your
interactions for the future. >>>>>
When Jayn was born my dh called his mother to tell her of the name we had
chosen. Her first response was "oh I don't like *that* name". Dh replied,
very steadily and calmly although with no sense of wavering or pleading,
"Mom..I don't want to hear your negativity." Click - by her that is.
We did not hear from her for 2 years. But she is not an ordinary
grandmother.
<<<<< I feel kinda dirtied now that I've finished it
though, so I think I better read something else to
cleanse my brain. Any suggestions folks? >>>>
I have read enough about Dobson and the Ezzos on line to know that it makes
me too sad - I lose sleep worrying about all these poor children.
Brain cleansing literature - the latest Alfie Kohn "Unconditional
Parenting"; "The Unprocessed Child" by Valerie Fitzenreiter; "The Explosive
Child" by what's-'is-name; "The Aware Baby" by Aletha Solter and of course:
www.sandradodd.com/unschooling .
<<<<<< What do you do about people
telling their kids what they can and can't eat and do
while in your home, both when the parents are present,
or as pre drop off instructions? I know this topic
has come up here before but I can't remember the
details.>>>>>>
When our neighbor recently got on the phone and started going on about her
kids not eating "junk food" - a rather vague designation that varies
depending on the child - at our home, dh simply and clearly said, "No I'm
not going to enforce that here." He is so inspiring. Part of my response is
to put away the chocolates and cookies and chips and lollipops - so that it
is not putting temptation cruelly right in front of them (also they will
take candies and secrete them about their persons and smuggle stuff home).
What I have said to them in the past, especially if they have come in
unannounced and then seen and wanted something that I suspect is forbidden,
is to say that I doubt that they should because their mother will probably
not allow them to return if she thinks they are coming here and eating
candy, and offer them some strawberries or grapes instead. It never felt
perfect, but it was really about saying something that Jayn would hear as
not being my choice to refuse someone food.
However with James being so upfront, now I just say "I don't know if your
mother would want you to have that, so if you are hungry please go home to
eat and then you can come back" (It's just 40 feet down the hall - everyone
else always brings their own kid's food in a sack). If it is a kind of treat
(for them) like I have made brownies or James' birthday cake, I will have
them phone their Mom for her permission - also if they started to argue
about it being something they were allowed. So far she has always said yes,
so I am even more confused.
To be honest it still doesn't feel perfect - although better - but the
upside is that I am not being eaten out of house and home. In the past,
especially before I only allowed one over at a time, they would very swiftly
clean us out of foods that I can only assume are designated "treats" at
their place - snack size Pringles, small chocolate bars, Smarties (the US
kind), any cookies we had except for oatmeal (too healthy?), corn chips and
popcorn. I have even become reluctant to make popcorn because Renee takes
hers and pours a *ton* of extra salt onto it (last time she left us with
NONE in the shaker until I bought more). With Jayn I don't care what she
chooses to add to her popcorn, because she is living free of food related
emotional issues, but I don't know about Renee. I have to think that even a
big pile of salt on the rare occasions she is here probably won't hurt her -
but I would hate to be proved wrong if she turns out to have high blood
pressure or some undisclosed medical condition.
<<<<<< >I used to get hyper vigilant about my kids' behavior
that
Glad I'm not the only one.>>>>
Add me to the list. I feel that Jayn is something of a "target" of criticism
because of her wild hair also. I have worked really hard at not being sharp
and impatient sounding, sort of living by example if I can - with mixed
success, but I certainly feel a lot of stress at those times.
Robyn L. Coburn
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unhealthy relatives. Our choice was to live at a
distance, see them seldom, and control the environment
and terms on which we do see them. >>>>
This was pretty much how we dealt with my mother when she was alive. She
passed away last January, as I have posted before I think. She lived in
Galveston, TX and one of her great aspirations was to have us also move
there - fat chance!
When she would start displaying her ignorance on the phone I would
immediately end the conversation - nicely but at once. EG: She: Jayn should
be writing her name by now. Me: No she shouldn't good bye Mum I love you
talk to you soon. Click.
Then I would send her a website from a source that she would likely respect
(this was crucial) on the topic. Usually I would get an apologetic or at
least respectful email after a few days. It really was ignorance on her
part, rather than rigidity. I can't remember what I sent her about the early
name writing.
In terms of sources she would respect the example I can always remember is
about breast feeding - I sent her the page from American Academy of
Pediatrics since she had a lot of respect for Doctors like her dh.
<<<<This time span was not a punishment to
them, but a much needed physical and emotional break
from each other. I believe it's easier after such a
break (not necessarily 2 years, but it should be a
good deal longer in comparison to whatever the normal
interval has been between visits and interactions) for
both parties to "start fresh" without real or imagined
injuries fresh in the mind and with the courteous
distance of relatives who have not seen each other for
a while allowing you to set a new tone to your
interactions for the future. >>>>>
When Jayn was born my dh called his mother to tell her of the name we had
chosen. Her first response was "oh I don't like *that* name". Dh replied,
very steadily and calmly although with no sense of wavering or pleading,
"Mom..I don't want to hear your negativity." Click - by her that is.
We did not hear from her for 2 years. But she is not an ordinary
grandmother.
<<<<< I feel kinda dirtied now that I've finished it
though, so I think I better read something else to
cleanse my brain. Any suggestions folks? >>>>
I have read enough about Dobson and the Ezzos on line to know that it makes
me too sad - I lose sleep worrying about all these poor children.
Brain cleansing literature - the latest Alfie Kohn "Unconditional
Parenting"; "The Unprocessed Child" by Valerie Fitzenreiter; "The Explosive
Child" by what's-'is-name; "The Aware Baby" by Aletha Solter and of course:
www.sandradodd.com/unschooling .
<<<<<< What do you do about people
telling their kids what they can and can't eat and do
while in your home, both when the parents are present,
or as pre drop off instructions? I know this topic
has come up here before but I can't remember the
details.>>>>>>
When our neighbor recently got on the phone and started going on about her
kids not eating "junk food" - a rather vague designation that varies
depending on the child - at our home, dh simply and clearly said, "No I'm
not going to enforce that here." He is so inspiring. Part of my response is
to put away the chocolates and cookies and chips and lollipops - so that it
is not putting temptation cruelly right in front of them (also they will
take candies and secrete them about their persons and smuggle stuff home).
What I have said to them in the past, especially if they have come in
unannounced and then seen and wanted something that I suspect is forbidden,
is to say that I doubt that they should because their mother will probably
not allow them to return if she thinks they are coming here and eating
candy, and offer them some strawberries or grapes instead. It never felt
perfect, but it was really about saying something that Jayn would hear as
not being my choice to refuse someone food.
However with James being so upfront, now I just say "I don't know if your
mother would want you to have that, so if you are hungry please go home to
eat and then you can come back" (It's just 40 feet down the hall - everyone
else always brings their own kid's food in a sack). If it is a kind of treat
(for them) like I have made brownies or James' birthday cake, I will have
them phone their Mom for her permission - also if they started to argue
about it being something they were allowed. So far she has always said yes,
so I am even more confused.
To be honest it still doesn't feel perfect - although better - but the
upside is that I am not being eaten out of house and home. In the past,
especially before I only allowed one over at a time, they would very swiftly
clean us out of foods that I can only assume are designated "treats" at
their place - snack size Pringles, small chocolate bars, Smarties (the US
kind), any cookies we had except for oatmeal (too healthy?), corn chips and
popcorn. I have even become reluctant to make popcorn because Renee takes
hers and pours a *ton* of extra salt onto it (last time she left us with
NONE in the shaker until I bought more). With Jayn I don't care what she
chooses to add to her popcorn, because she is living free of food related
emotional issues, but I don't know about Renee. I have to think that even a
big pile of salt on the rare occasions she is here probably won't hurt her -
but I would hate to be proved wrong if she turns out to have high blood
pressure or some undisclosed medical condition.
<<<<<< >I used to get hyper vigilant about my kids' behavior
>when I was in a place where the others wereover->controlling their own kids and being irritated
that
>mine were there. I really wanted mine to just notSandra
>make waves, don't rock the boat, and I'd be sharp
>and impatient in those instances, but they
>always understood during the debrief in the car
>afterward (or wherever) why I was nervous
>in such situations.
Glad I'm not the only one.>>>>
Add me to the list. I feel that Jayn is something of a "target" of criticism
because of her wild hair also. I have worked really hard at not being sharp
and impatient sounding, sort of living by example if I can - with mixed
success, but I certainly feel a lot of stress at those times.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Robyn Coburn
<<<<<< We kept some kids once for a long day and the parents said we should
spank them if they were bad and I said nah, I didn't think so, so she said
that's fine, just tell them what the kids did wrong when they picked them
up. Nothing happened that I felt like reporting. <g> >>>>
What is it with that phrase "did they behave?"
As if I would ever say "no".
The only exceptions have been Renee stealing my diamond ring (as previously
reported) and Renee trying to touch Jayn's private parts last summer - and
with this issue that I would consider extremely problematic, I was lightly
assured it was "normal" and that her older cousin had treated Renee the same
way when she was the same age! I felt brushed off rather than reassured.
Renee thought she could try the same "game" again recently - funny how it is
happening just when said older cousin is visiting. I just watch - every
single second they are together.
Here's something that I think is rather odd. Whenever Renee comes over here
for a playdate, within 2 or 3 minutes of arriving she ALWAYS goes to the
bathroom for a lengthy b.m. (to judge by the time spent and air quality
following). I mean *ALWAYS*. I wonder if she somehow relaxes when she comes
here and the result is an urgent need to go....
Jonah does it too, but not so fanatically *always*, just *usually*, shortly
after arriving.
Robyn L. Coburn
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spank them if they were bad and I said nah, I didn't think so, so she said
that's fine, just tell them what the kids did wrong when they picked them
up. Nothing happened that I felt like reporting. <g> >>>>
What is it with that phrase "did they behave?"
As if I would ever say "no".
The only exceptions have been Renee stealing my diamond ring (as previously
reported) and Renee trying to touch Jayn's private parts last summer - and
with this issue that I would consider extremely problematic, I was lightly
assured it was "normal" and that her older cousin had treated Renee the same
way when she was the same age! I felt brushed off rather than reassured.
Renee thought she could try the same "game" again recently - funny how it is
happening just when said older cousin is visiting. I just watch - every
single second they are together.
Here's something that I think is rather odd. Whenever Renee comes over here
for a playdate, within 2 or 3 minutes of arriving she ALWAYS goes to the
bathroom for a lengthy b.m. (to judge by the time spent and air quality
following). I mean *ALWAYS*. I wonder if she somehow relaxes when she comes
here and the result is an urgent need to go....
Jonah does it too, but not so fanatically *always*, just *usually*, shortly
after arriving.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Jordan
Second on Alfie Kohn! I highly recommend Unconditional Parenting.
Tami, who is a parenting book junkie and freely admits it.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Pam Sorooshian
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 3:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Unhealthy Relatives or Other Folks/Spanking
Tami, who is a parenting book junkie and freely admits it.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Pam Sorooshian
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 3:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Unhealthy Relatives or Other Folks/Spanking
On Jun 27, 2005, at 7:25 PM, Nanci Kuykendall wrote:
> I feel kinda dirtied now that I've finished it
> though, so I think I better read something else to
> cleanse my brain. Any suggestions folks?
Unconditional Parenting? Alfie Kohn
Or - The Parent/Teen Breakthrough: A Relationship Approach by Mira
Kirshenbaum
-pam
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/05 2:09:52 AM, dezigna@... writes:
rather than the brain-wipe. <g>
Maybe some of the links on the spanking page, about people who did and now
don't. That might be a balm to your post-James-Dobson reading.
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Brain cleansing literature - the latest Alfie Kohn "UnconditionalAh, thanks. I like to think of it as the brain-massage side of cleansing
> Parenting"; "The Unprocessed Child" by Valerie Fitzenreiter; "The Explosive
> Child" by what's-'is-name; "The Aware Baby" by Aletha Solter and of course:
> www.sandradodd.com/unschooling .
>
rather than the brain-wipe. <g>
Maybe some of the links on the spanking page, about people who did and now
don't. That might be a balm to your post-James-Dobson reading.
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@...>
The book explains that this method
is critical in "good Christian" homes because
otherwise the children will not grow up to submit
themselves to every authority in their lives such as
bosses, landlords, professors and
-=-=-=-
... molesters, rapists, abusive partners....
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@...>
The book explains that this method
is critical in "good Christian" homes because
otherwise the children will not grow up to submit
themselves to every authority in their lives such as
bosses, landlords, professors and
-=-=-=-
... molesters, rapists, abusive partners....
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/2005 1:04:58 AM Central Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
Unconditional Parenting? Alfie Kohn
Or - The Parent/Teen Breakthrough: A Relationship Approach by Mira
Kirshenbaum
~~~
Living Joyfully with Children, by Win & Bill Sweet
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
Unconditional Parenting? Alfie Kohn
Or - The Parent/Teen Breakthrough: A Relationship Approach by Mira
Kirshenbaum
~~~
Living Joyfully with Children, by Win & Bill Sweet
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/05 7:12:43 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
group, but it works best when the kids are afraid not to do what adults,
especially religious leaders, tell them to do).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> such asMinisters, Priests, molesters (sometimes you can get two out of three of that
> bosses, landlords, professors and
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> ... molesters, rapists, abusive partners....
>
>
group, but it works best when the kids are afraid not to do what adults,
especially religious leaders, tell them to do).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/2005 10:54:09 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Ministers, Priests, molesters (sometimes you can get two out of three of
that
group, but it works best when the kids are afraid not to do what adults,
especially religious leaders, tell them to do).
~~~
A not so horrific example was the boy lost in Utah recently who hid from his
rescuers because he was told never to talk to strangers.
It would have been horrific if they had not found him, I guess.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Ministers, Priests, molesters (sometimes you can get two out of three of
that
group, but it works best when the kids are afraid not to do what adults,
especially religious leaders, tell them to do).
~~~
A not so horrific example was the boy lost in Utah recently who hid from his
rescuers because he was told never to talk to strangers.
It would have been horrific if they had not found him, I guess.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
katherand2003
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@c...>
wrote:
Rewards" and am now reading "How to Talk So Kids Can Learn."
I should also mention... the great ideas about how to handle
parenting conflicts. They're wonderful. Even in conflicts of views
between two married parents of the same household, some of these
ideas are applicable, I would think. Eventually, the path of least
resistance (usually warned against) may appeal to the more rule-
oriented parent. One could hope, couldn't one?
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
otherwise the children will not grow up to submit
themselves to every authority in their lives such as
bosses, landlords, professors and
-=-=-=-
... molesters, rapists, abusive partners....
~Kelly
Exactly my point about obedience. You don't want to encourage that
really.
Kathe
I also read a great book called "The Dance of Connection" by the
author of "The Dance of Anger." Very helpful in dealing with
conflicts and finding your own voice. I needed it especially in the
situation with my in-laws.
wrote:
> Brain cleansing literature - the latest Alfie Kohn "UnconditionalExplosive
> Parenting"; "The Unprocessed Child" by Valerie Fitzenreiter; "The
> Child" by what's-'is-name; "The Aware Baby" by Aletha Solter andof course:
> www.sandradodd.com/unschooling .Y'all have the greatest resources! I have read "Punished by
>
Rewards" and am now reading "How to Talk So Kids Can Learn."
I should also mention... the great ideas about how to handle
parenting conflicts. They're wonderful. Even in conflicts of views
between two married parents of the same household, some of these
ideas are applicable, I would think. Eventually, the path of least
resistance (usually warned against) may appeal to the more rule-
oriented parent. One could hope, couldn't one?
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>>The book explains that this methodis critical in "good Christian" homes because
otherwise the children will not grow up to submit
themselves to every authority in their lives such as
bosses, landlords, professors and
-=-=-=-
... molesters, rapists, abusive partners....
~Kelly
Exactly my point about obedience. You don't want to encourage that
really.
Kathe
I also read a great book called "The Dance of Connection" by the
author of "The Dance of Anger." Very helpful in dealing with
conflicts and finding your own voice. I needed it especially in the
situation with my in-laws.