eriksmama2001

Try [email protected] or
[email protected]

Pat

--- In [email protected], Ginnie Chase <ginchase@n...>
wrote:
> I like to cook meals for my family but sometimes it's nice to have
a
> meal that one hasn't cooked for oneself (they always seem to taste
> better). Since I have two teenagers who love to eat I decided that
> they should contribute to the cooking efforts of the household. I
told
> them each that they were hereby responsible for cooking dinner one
> night per week. They weren't thrilled but I insisted (coerced?)
and
> they began their adventures in the kitchen. I was available to
help
> them, but they planned the menu, made a shopping list (I did the
> shopping) and did the bulk of the meal preparation (not without a
lot
> of prodding, to begin with).
>
> Six months later they have learned so much and both enjoy cooking
more
> than they ever imagined possible. They have come to enjoy the
whole
> process and don't require any nagging about it at all - they love
to be
> able to decide what's for dinner. They are also becoming
interested in
> eating foods that formerly they rejected.
>
> I also require (coerce?) them to do various chores around the house
> that they wouldn't dream of volunteering to do - laundry, cleaning
up
> after meals, watching their 4 yr. old brother and mowing the lawn
come
> to mind but the list is longer than that. I'm not willing to do
all
> this work alone, or wait until they have reached the point in their
> development where they can empathize enough with my situation to
> volunteer for these jobs.
>
> They have been unschooled their entire lives but cooking and
laundry
> were never among the pursuits that they chose for themselves. It
> never occurred to me that requiring them to help could damage their
> learning and I've never seen any evidence that it has - but maybe
> that's just my myopic view.
>
> I don't like the idea of coercion but I also don't like the idea of
> doing all the work myself and feeling resentful for a lack of help
from
> other household members who are perfectly capable of
participating. I
> guess that falls far short of consensual living and TCS, and I'm
> willing to listen to any suggestions on how to live more
harmoniously.
> Maybe it's too late for the older kids to live without coercion,
but
> the 4 yr. old might benefit from all your suggestions. Sorry to
send
> another post about those subjects but I never saw an alternate site
> listed which might address these issues and I'm very interested in
> responses from people on this list.
>
> Ginnie

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/25/04 7:44:36 PM, ginchase@... writes:

<< I don't like the idea of coercion but I also don't like the idea of
doing all the work myself and feeling resentful for a lack of help from
other household members who are perfectly capable of participating. >>

It's possible to change your attitude and lost the resentment, not have to do
all the work yourself, and stop thinking of your children as "perfectly
capable."

That's one of those phrases that only comes out in the critical mom voice.
"You're perfectly capable of [doing your own laundry, whatever all...].

There are things I am perfectly capable of doing that my husband does for me,
and vice versa. It's not that I couldn't do it. It's that he can do it
better, or enjoys it more.

It's part of being loving toward one another. If he dies, I will start
pumping my own gas, getting a chair to get up into the high cabinets (if my tall
sons have moved away then), and I'll keep a rubber glove around to help with
opening the new jars that he can open so easily.

If I die he will take care of all his own laundry, and clean the toilet, and
probably figure out some clever way to take care of cat litter.

It's not a TCS or non-coercion topic. It's a living peacefully with children
topic, which has come up on a couple of lists and at unschooling.com over the
years, and I've collected some of the best bits here:

http://sandradodd.com/chores

Sandra

Ginnie Chase

I like to cook meals for my family but sometimes it's nice to have a
meal that one hasn't cooked for oneself (they always seem to taste
better). Since I have two teenagers who love to eat I decided that
they should contribute to the cooking efforts of the household. I told
them each that they were hereby responsible for cooking dinner one
night per week. They weren't thrilled but I insisted (coerced?) and
they began their adventures in the kitchen. I was available to help
them, but they planned the menu, made a shopping list (I did the
shopping) and did the bulk of the meal preparation (not without a lot
of prodding, to begin with).

Six months later they have learned so much and both enjoy cooking more
than they ever imagined possible. They have come to enjoy the whole
process and don't require any nagging about it at all - they love to be
able to decide what's for dinner. They are also becoming interested in
eating foods that formerly they rejected.

I also require (coerce?) them to do various chores around the house
that they wouldn't dream of volunteering to do - laundry, cleaning up
after meals, watching their 4 yr. old brother and mowing the lawn come
to mind but the list is longer than that. I'm not willing to do all
this work alone, or wait until they have reached the point in their
development where they can empathize enough with my situation to
volunteer for these jobs.

They have been unschooled their entire lives but cooking and laundry
were never among the pursuits that they chose for themselves. It
never occurred to me that requiring them to help could damage their
learning and I've never seen any evidence that it has - but maybe
that's just my myopic view.

I don't like the idea of coercion but I also don't like the idea of
doing all the work myself and feeling resentful for a lack of help from
other household members who are perfectly capable of participating. I
guess that falls far short of consensual living and TCS, and I'm
willing to listen to any suggestions on how to live more harmoniously.
Maybe it's too late for the older kids to live without coercion, but
the 4 yr. old might benefit from all your suggestions. Sorry to send
another post about those subjects but I never saw an alternate site
listed which might address these issues and I'm very interested in
responses from people on this list.

Ginnie

AM Brown

In reading your email I wondered, when you say 'require' is there a
punishment attached to that? i.e. if you don't cook dinner, do the
laundry, etc. you can't ______? I tend to use a variation of the golden
rule as a litmus test. Would I like the words said to me, would I say the
words to my spouse, friend, neighbor? I think about how I would feel if
say my spouse said 'if you don't cook you can't use the computer.' That
wouldn't really go over well :) If however, he said he had been traveling
and eating take out for a week and would love my famous whatever dish, then
I would be WAY more inclined to cook. There is no threat, just information
and I know that if I said, you know what I just don't want to tonight, he
would be fine with it. That is what I want to model for my children.

As for feeling resentment - when I have felt this way I realize it is all
about me. No one is trying to make my life miserable it is all in how *I*
am choosing to look at it. We have gotten really good at sharing our
feelings about things. I've found we really do want to help each other.
I'm also able to reframe things. For example, cleaning up toys is not a
hassle it is creating a blank canvas for my dds to create new adventures.
It is a gift for them and for me. I don't have to look at it as a chore.
Now that doesn't mean I do it every day :) but when I do I don't feel
resentment about it and I don't feel the need to threaten them to it.
Cooking is a gift for my family, when I want to do it, it's great, when I
don't we eat leftovers, take out, something simple whatever. No one tries
to make me feel like I should be doing more or that I'm not contributing
enough. I've found if we are all clear about how we are feeling and what
we need - our needs really get met. I think that works because we are
all on equal footing.

Anna

badolbilz

This is a very timely topic for me. I'm reading and learning and have
to admit that while I've come a million miles in the last 18 months as
far as being a better parent, friend and guide to my children, I coerce
my children fairly often about a lot of little things. Like the parents
who never question whether or not they should send their children to
school, coercion is so ingrained from my childhood that I wasn't even
really aware of it.

Yesterday my parents started a huge fight with my dh and we're all now
at a standstill...and really all because of coercion. Yesterday my
parents finally came across a person that could only be coerced for so
long before he stood up for himself...and believe me, they didn't like
it. The fight was so bad that I don't know if I'll even have a
relationship with them anymore. It's very sad and at the same time very
freeing and eye-opening. Coercion on small occassions may seem like no
big deal, but in truth it's no different than verbal abuse and over a
long time, it can do a tremendous amout of mental damage. I can see
this quite clearly now.

So while this is a hard time for my family, thanks to all of you and the
insights you've given me I can honestly say that I will be a better
person for it.
Heidi

eriksmama2001

Yes, when I realized what an abusive parent-child relationship I had
growing up, it was scary. I THOUGHT it was me! I was TOLD it was
because of my behavior that I had these consequences...

The patterns of coercion are difficult to see within the moments of
ones life. It is only when I realized there WAS a pattern of repeated
use of coercion was I able to see how ingrained and abusive that was.
The fact that I believed that I had to or was made to do things was
assumed. I didn't question it within the relationship with my
parents. They loved me. So it must be me, not the process of relating
that was dysfunctional.

One has to be able to see that it is not the events of coercion that
is the issue so much as the PATTERN of forcing someone do something
that they do not want to do. As Sandra said coercion stays the same.

Abuse is when there is no recourse to avoid the coercion over time.

Good luck. Personally, I realized that each of my parents actually
had different roles in the coercive relationship. My father has been
unable to see that I perceive his behavior to still be coercive. He
believes that I have responsibilities and obligations to him and his
expectations. Not choices. Fortunately, he can no longer force me to
comply. We no longer have an abusive relationship. Sometimes all you
can do is leave the abusive relationship if it won't change. It is
very empowering to leave an abusive relationship.

I can celebrate that my son can retain his self-determination and
self-value since he won't be in a relationship with a pattern of
coercion with his parents.



--- In [email protected], badolbilz <ynxn96@f...> wrote:
> This is a very timely topic for me. I'm reading and learning and
have
> to admit that while I've come a million miles in the last 18 months
as
> far as being a better parent, friend and guide to my children, I
coerce
> my children fairly often about a lot of little things. Like the
parents
> who never question whether or not they should send their children
to
> school, coercion is so ingrained from my childhood that I wasn't
even
> really aware of it.
>
> Yesterday my parents started a huge fight with my dh and we're all
now
> at a standstill...and really all because of coercion. Yesterday my
> parents finally came across a person that could only be coerced for
so
> long before he stood up for himself...and believe me, they didn't
like
> it. The fight was so bad that I don't know if I'll even have a
> relationship with them anymore. It's very sad and at the same time
very
> freeing and eye-opening. Coercion on small occassions may seem
like no
> big deal, but in truth it's no different than verbal abuse and over
a
> long time, it can do a tremendous amout of mental damage. I can
see
> this quite clearly now.
>
> So while this is a hard time for my family, thanks to all of you
and the
> insights you've given me I can honestly say that I will be a better
> person for it.
> Heidi

[email protected]

<< He believes that I have responsibilities and obligations to him and his

expectations. >>

I think that within an abusive relationship, or if there are no exceptions or
freedoms given, that's bad. But the statement above is true to some extent
with any friendship or relationship, at least a little bit, isn't it?

Didn't your dad have responsibilities and obligations to you and your
expectations also, which is why you see the relationship in a bad light?

Sandra

eriksmama2001

No.
Choices, yes.

Pat


--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> << He believes that I have responsibilities and obligations to him
and his
>
> expectations. >>
>
> I think that within an abusive relationship, or if there are no
exceptions or
> freedoms given, that's bad. But the statement above is true to
some extent
> with any friendship or relationship, at least a little bit, isn't
it?
>
> Didn't your dad have responsibilities and obligations to you and
your
> expectations also, which is why you see the relationship in a bad
light?
>
> Sandra