making sense, and not making sense
[email protected]
I went looking for an online text or at least a publication date for the
little pamphlet from which I quoted in the bit about maturity/sobriety.
I am still looking, and might not find it, but I came across something
interesting.
It's a Rod and Staff publication, and that is put out by Anabaptists,
Mennonites. It was from a Mennonite family I got the tract.
On the bio page of something I read because the guy has the same name as
someone my husband works with (not the same guy, I was relieved to find), there
was a list of his beliefs. Some seemed excitingly contradictory to me, the
first and last of this subset of his beliefs:
* Christians have no business in earthly politics--voting, running for
office, endorsing candidates, debating political issues, protesting, signing
petitions, (in most cases, even) writing letters.
* Life begins at conception.
* Abortion is murder.
* Scientific fooling with the process of human conception, while
fascinating, opens too many ethical-moral dilemmas in too many scenarios.
* Capital punishment is the State's God-given responsibility.
--------------
If God is giving the state a responsibility to take life,
how then is the state "earthly politics"?
So as illogical as that seems, this guy's in the business of promoting
sobriety and quietness to children.
He runs a private school. I guess critical thinking is probably NOT on
their curriculum.
They have an iesources that are available on it!! Much of what can be found
would fall in the amoral category. However, we all know that the enemy of
mankind continues to introduce monstrous amounts of immoral and evil stuff. So I
decided to join those in the service of the King of Kings who are striving to
make available material which is moral, safe, healthful and edifying.
I certainly do not make a wholesale recommendation that God's people go
on-line. And those that are on-line I encourage to faithfulness. In our home
congregation, some of us modem-ites have signed the following covenant (a totally
personal, non-congregational move):
I purpose before God and my Brothers to never use my modem to intentionally
download or view any file (text or graphic) that is sexual, pornographic,
obscene, immoral and/or lustful in nature. I also purpose to avoid newsgroups and
mailing lists which disseminate similar material. By signing this covenant of
Brotherhood accountability, I give my co-signing Brothers the privilege and
responsibility of checking up on my faithfulness in this area.
Quite a number of you "out there" have written to me to let me know that you
have also bound yourself with this covenant. If you, too, take this vow before
God, I'd be delighted to hear from you via email.
little pamphlet from which I quoted in the bit about maturity/sobriety.
I am still looking, and might not find it, but I came across something
interesting.
It's a Rod and Staff publication, and that is put out by Anabaptists,
Mennonites. It was from a Mennonite family I got the tract.
On the bio page of something I read because the guy has the same name as
someone my husband works with (not the same guy, I was relieved to find), there
was a list of his beliefs. Some seemed excitingly contradictory to me, the
first and last of this subset of his beliefs:
* Christians have no business in earthly politics--voting, running for
office, endorsing candidates, debating political issues, protesting, signing
petitions, (in most cases, even) writing letters.
* Life begins at conception.
* Abortion is murder.
* Scientific fooling with the process of human conception, while
fascinating, opens too many ethical-moral dilemmas in too many scenarios.
* Capital punishment is the State's God-given responsibility.
--------------
If God is giving the state a responsibility to take life,
how then is the state "earthly politics"?
So as illogical as that seems, this guy's in the business of promoting
sobriety and quietness to children.
He runs a private school. I guess critical thinking is probably NOT on
their curriculum.
They have an iesources that are available on it!! Much of what can be found
would fall in the amoral category. However, we all know that the enemy of
mankind continues to introduce monstrous amounts of immoral and evil stuff. So I
decided to join those in the service of the King of Kings who are striving to
make available material which is moral, safe, healthful and edifying.
I certainly do not make a wholesale recommendation that God's people go
on-line. And those that are on-line I encourage to faithfulness. In our home
congregation, some of us modem-ites have signed the following covenant (a totally
personal, non-congregational move):
I purpose before God and my Brothers to never use my modem to intentionally
download or view any file (text or graphic) that is sexual, pornographic,
obscene, immoral and/or lustful in nature. I also purpose to avoid newsgroups and
mailing lists which disseminate similar material. By signing this covenant of
Brotherhood accountability, I give my co-signing Brothers the privilege and
responsibility of checking up on my faithfulness in this area.
Quite a number of you "out there" have written to me to let me know that you
have also bound yourself with this covenant. If you, too, take this vow before
God, I'd be delighted to hear from you via email.
Angela
It's a darned good thing he took that oath or he might be viewing porn right
now. Geesh!
Angela
<mailto:game-enthusiast@...> game-enthusiast@...
I purpose before God and my Brothers to never use my modem to intentionally
download or view any file (text or graphic) that is sexual, pornographic,
obscene, immoral and/or lustful in nature. I also purpose to avoid
newsgroups and
mailing lists which disseminate similar material. By signing this covenant
of
Brotherhood accountability, I give my co-signing Brothers the privilege and
responsibility of checking up on my faithfulness in this area.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
now. Geesh!
Angela
<mailto:game-enthusiast@...> game-enthusiast@...
I purpose before God and my Brothers to never use my modem to intentionally
download or view any file (text or graphic) that is sexual, pornographic,
obscene, immoral and/or lustful in nature. I also purpose to avoid
newsgroups and
mailing lists which disseminate similar material. By signing this covenant
of
Brotherhood accountability, I give my co-signing Brothers the privilege and
responsibility of checking up on my faithfulness in this area.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<I purpose before God and my Brothers to never use my modem to
intentionally
download or view any file (text or graphic) that is sexual, pornographic,
obscene, immoral and/or lustful in nature. I also purpose to avoid
newsgroups and
mailing lists which disseminate similar material. By signing this covenant
of
Brotherhood accountability, I give my co-signing Brothers the privilege and
responsibility of checking up on my faithfulness in this area.>>>
What if you were seeking an overview of medical information for a sexual
problem or STD? What if you were looking for graphics of sexual reproduction
(like genes dividing) to explain the basics of genetics for someone?
I guess I think there is vast gulf between the word "sexual" and the words
"pornographic" and "obscene".
I'm not sure I want someone else defining those words for me either. I would
like a clearer definition of the grey areas before placing myself in a
situation of having someone pointing their fingers (or their modems) at me.
What if I'm looking at an online underwear catalogue so that I can buy
something that will amuse dh and myself? Is one of the brotherhood who only
likes cotton grannypants going to (ahem) bust me?
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 7/22/2004
intentionally
download or view any file (text or graphic) that is sexual, pornographic,
obscene, immoral and/or lustful in nature. I also purpose to avoid
newsgroups and
mailing lists which disseminate similar material. By signing this covenant
of
Brotherhood accountability, I give my co-signing Brothers the privilege and
responsibility of checking up on my faithfulness in this area.>>>
What if you were seeking an overview of medical information for a sexual
problem or STD? What if you were looking for graphics of sexual reproduction
(like genes dividing) to explain the basics of genetics for someone?
I guess I think there is vast gulf between the word "sexual" and the words
"pornographic" and "obscene".
I'm not sure I want someone else defining those words for me either. I would
like a clearer definition of the grey areas before placing myself in a
situation of having someone pointing their fingers (or their modems) at me.
What if I'm looking at an online underwear catalogue so that I can buy
something that will amuse dh and myself? Is one of the brotherhood who only
likes cotton grannypants going to (ahem) bust me?
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 7/22/2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/26/04 12:48:19 AM, dezigna@... writes:
<< What if you were seeking an overview of medical information for a sexual
problem or STD? >>
You wouldn't be, if you lived a good separatist-Christian life. You would be
married to the person your parents helped choose, and neither one of you
would ever have had sex with anyone else, and you wouldn't have sexual problems.
(No basis for comparison; god's will.)
The author of that is married to the only other graduate of his Christian
school class the year they graduated. They waited three years to make sure, but
they were the entire graduating class.
Some Christian homeschooling literature now is on past courtship as a
recommendation to flat-out arranged marriages. The dad prays and God tells him who
his daughter should marry. (Not on that site, but recent magazine articles.)
-=-What if you were looking for graphics of sexual reproduction
(like genes dividing) to explain the basics of genetics for someone? -=-
If it's not in the Bible, it's not important to them.
-=-What if I'm looking at an online underwear catalogue so that I can buy
something that will amuse dh and myself? Is one of the brotherhood who only
likes cotton grannypants going to (ahem) bust me?-=-
Amusement!? Did you miss the "sobriety and quietness" part?
We're here to suffer, not to be amused. Amusement is Satanic.
Anyway, the pact only applies to people in their little home congregation
(them and the neighbors? I don't know).
Here's something in the pamphlet that connects some people on this list with
Satan:
"Faithful application of the rod at the right place will not injure or kill
the child, as some would think. The cruel, atheistic theories of allowing the
child to express his will, instead of breaking it, are bringing upon us a
world of rebellion and resultant unrest and confusion. It is Satan's last
thrust--mass rebellion against God's authority. Faithful correction with the rod
will 'deliver his soul from hell,' even in such a wicked time."
[quotes were in the original, phrase from Proverbs 23:14]
Just a reminder to anyone who thinks this is old stuff from 1950 or 1850, I
picked this tract up at a homeschooling convention in Las Vegas, Nevada, in
June 2004. The company that published it publishes a homeschooling curriculum,
too. Rod and Staff.
Sandra
<< What if you were seeking an overview of medical information for a sexual
problem or STD? >>
You wouldn't be, if you lived a good separatist-Christian life. You would be
married to the person your parents helped choose, and neither one of you
would ever have had sex with anyone else, and you wouldn't have sexual problems.
(No basis for comparison; god's will.)
The author of that is married to the only other graduate of his Christian
school class the year they graduated. They waited three years to make sure, but
they were the entire graduating class.
Some Christian homeschooling literature now is on past courtship as a
recommendation to flat-out arranged marriages. The dad prays and God tells him who
his daughter should marry. (Not on that site, but recent magazine articles.)
-=-What if you were looking for graphics of sexual reproduction
(like genes dividing) to explain the basics of genetics for someone? -=-
If it's not in the Bible, it's not important to them.
-=-What if I'm looking at an online underwear catalogue so that I can buy
something that will amuse dh and myself? Is one of the brotherhood who only
likes cotton grannypants going to (ahem) bust me?-=-
Amusement!? Did you miss the "sobriety and quietness" part?
We're here to suffer, not to be amused. Amusement is Satanic.
Anyway, the pact only applies to people in their little home congregation
(them and the neighbors? I don't know).
Here's something in the pamphlet that connects some people on this list with
Satan:
"Faithful application of the rod at the right place will not injure or kill
the child, as some would think. The cruel, atheistic theories of allowing the
child to express his will, instead of breaking it, are bringing upon us a
world of rebellion and resultant unrest and confusion. It is Satan's last
thrust--mass rebellion against God's authority. Faithful correction with the rod
will 'deliver his soul from hell,' even in such a wicked time."
[quotes were in the original, phrase from Proverbs 23:14]
Just a reminder to anyone who thinks this is old stuff from 1950 or 1850, I
picked this tract up at a homeschooling convention in Las Vegas, Nevada, in
June 2004. The company that published it publishes a homeschooling curriculum,
too. Rod and Staff.
Sandra
denice
<<If it's not in the Bible, it's not important to them.>>
This is actually not true. Be careful! It's easy to generalize and make assumptions about things we don't understand. I think it's important to give the same respect and tolerance to these groups as we would expect for ourselves.
denice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is actually not true. Be careful! It's easy to generalize and make assumptions about things we don't understand. I think it's important to give the same respect and tolerance to these groups as we would expect for ourselves.
denice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kathryn Balley
Let's not let the media get hold of the pamphlet or we'l all be the subject of another CBS homeschooling expose ;-)
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 7/26/04 12:48:19 AM, dezigna@... writes:
<< What if you were seeking an overview of medical information for a sexual
problem or STD? >>
You wouldn't be, if you lived a good separatist-Christian life. You would be
married to the person your parents helped choose, and neither one of you
would ever have had sex with anyone else, and you wouldn't have sexual problems.
(No basis for comparison; god's will.)
The author of that is married to the only other graduate of his Christian
school class the year they graduated. They waited three years to make sure, but
they were the entire graduating class.
Some Christian homeschooling literature now is on past courtship as a
recommendation to flat-out arranged marriages. The dad prays and God tells him who
his daughter should marry. (Not on that site, but recent magazine articles.)
-=-What if you were looking for graphics of sexual reproduction
(like genes dividing) to explain the basics of genetics for someone? -=-
If it's not in the Bible, it's not important to them.
-=-What if I'm looking at an online underwear catalogue so that I can buy
something that will amuse dh and myself? Is one of the brotherhood who only
likes cotton grannypants going to (ahem) bust me?-=-
Amusement!? Did you miss the "sobriety and quietness" part?
We're here to suffer, not to be amused. Amusement is Satanic.
Anyway, the pact only applies to people in their little home congregation
(them and the neighbors? I don't know).
Here's something in the pamphlet that connects some people on this list with
Satan:
"Faithful application of the rod at the right place will not injure or kill
the child, as some would think. The cruel, atheistic theories of allowing the
child to express his will, instead of breaking it, are bringing upon us a
world of rebellion and resultant unrest and confusion. It is Satan's last
thrust--mass rebellion against God's authority. Faithful correction with the rod
will 'deliver his soul from hell,' even in such a wicked time."
[quotes were in the original, phrase from Proverbs 23:14]
Just a reminder to anyone who thinks this is old stuff from 1950 or 1850, I
picked this tract up at a homeschooling convention in Las Vegas, Nevada, in
June 2004. The company that published it publishes a homeschooling curriculum,
too. Rod and Staff.
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 7/26/04 12:48:19 AM, dezigna@... writes:
<< What if you were seeking an overview of medical information for a sexual
problem or STD? >>
You wouldn't be, if you lived a good separatist-Christian life. You would be
married to the person your parents helped choose, and neither one of you
would ever have had sex with anyone else, and you wouldn't have sexual problems.
(No basis for comparison; god's will.)
The author of that is married to the only other graduate of his Christian
school class the year they graduated. They waited three years to make sure, but
they were the entire graduating class.
Some Christian homeschooling literature now is on past courtship as a
recommendation to flat-out arranged marriages. The dad prays and God tells him who
his daughter should marry. (Not on that site, but recent magazine articles.)
-=-What if you were looking for graphics of sexual reproduction
(like genes dividing) to explain the basics of genetics for someone? -=-
If it's not in the Bible, it's not important to them.
-=-What if I'm looking at an online underwear catalogue so that I can buy
something that will amuse dh and myself? Is one of the brotherhood who only
likes cotton grannypants going to (ahem) bust me?-=-
Amusement!? Did you miss the "sobriety and quietness" part?
We're here to suffer, not to be amused. Amusement is Satanic.
Anyway, the pact only applies to people in their little home congregation
(them and the neighbors? I don't know).
Here's something in the pamphlet that connects some people on this list with
Satan:
"Faithful application of the rod at the right place will not injure or kill
the child, as some would think. The cruel, atheistic theories of allowing the
child to express his will, instead of breaking it, are bringing upon us a
world of rebellion and resultant unrest and confusion. It is Satan's last
thrust--mass rebellion against God's authority. Faithful correction with the rod
will 'deliver his soul from hell,' even in such a wicked time."
[quotes were in the original, phrase from Proverbs 23:14]
Just a reminder to anyone who thinks this is old stuff from 1950 or 1850, I
picked this tract up at a homeschooling convention in Las Vegas, Nevada, in
June 2004. The company that published it publishes a homeschooling curriculum,
too. Rod and Staff.
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/26/04 1:17:04 PM, denice@... writes:
<< <<If it's not in the Bible, it's not important to them.>>
<<This is actually not true. >>
What do you mean?
And of what group are you thinking?
Sandra
<< <<If it's not in the Bible, it's not important to them.>>
<<This is actually not true. >>
What do you mean?
And of what group are you thinking?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/26/04 1:17:04 PM, denice@... writes:
<< <<If it's not in the Bible, it's not important to them.>>
This is actually not true. Be careful! It's easy to generalize and make
assumptions about things we don't understand. I think it's important to give the
same respect and tolerance to these groups as we would expect for ourselves. >>
<< <<If it's not in the Bible, it's not important to them.>>
This is actually not true. Be careful! It's easy to generalize and make
assumptions about things we don't understand. I think it's important to give the
same respect and tolerance to these groups as we would expect for ourselves. >>
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/26/04 1:17:04 PM, denice@... writes:
<< It's easy to generalize and make assumptions about things we don't
understand. >>
What about fundamentalist Christians do you think "we" (meaning by which, I
think, you meant me) don't understand?
<<I think it's important to give the same respect and tolerance to these
groups as we would expect for ourselves. >>
I think it would immoral and integrity killing for me to respect and tolerate
child abusers and those who teach others to abuse. My beliefs were called
"Satan's last thrust" in that pamphlet. I don't believe in Satan or hell or
heaven, and so I can't respect people who write "The rod will enable him to see
his need of a Saviour and Master."
If a person says "I respect all beliefs equally," I don't think the person is
very smart. I'm certainly not interested in being friends, because it means
both these things:
-I don't like to think hard thoughts.
-I respect you no more than I respect Charles Manson or Pol Pot. I make no d
istinction between Ghandi and Jack the Ripper.
Sandra
<< It's easy to generalize and make assumptions about things we don't
understand. >>
What about fundamentalist Christians do you think "we" (meaning by which, I
think, you meant me) don't understand?
<<I think it's important to give the same respect and tolerance to these
groups as we would expect for ourselves. >>
I think it would immoral and integrity killing for me to respect and tolerate
child abusers and those who teach others to abuse. My beliefs were called
"Satan's last thrust" in that pamphlet. I don't believe in Satan or hell or
heaven, and so I can't respect people who write "The rod will enable him to see
his need of a Saviour and Master."
If a person says "I respect all beliefs equally," I don't think the person is
very smart. I'm certainly not interested in being friends, because it means
both these things:
-I don't like to think hard thoughts.
-I respect you no more than I respect Charles Manson or Pol Pot. I make no d
istinction between Ghandi and Jack the Ripper.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/26/04 6:03:28 PM, denice@... writes:
<< 'm thinking of Anabaptists, Amish, Mennonites, and, specifically, Rod and
Staff curriculum users/sellers. I live in a predominately Amish/Mennonite
community, and a lot of them are homeschoolers, many of whom use or have used Rod
and Staff. There are a lot of things that are not in the Bible that are
important to these people, such as tradition (wedding, funeral, etc.), gathering
together for meals, family first, etc. >>
They will find Biblical justification for all that, easily. Even less
extreme fundamentalists (Southern Baptists) do so.
Another of the set of pamphlets I picked up says "In His Holy Word, God has
spoken on every subjct that concerns us." I was taught that in church too,
though, that there is no subject the Bible doesn't cover. If it's not in the
Bible, it's not something for us to concern ourselves with. If we find the need
to concern ourselves, we will find a Bible verse to cover it.
-=-Almost all of the Anabaptists and Mennonites I know are the sweetest,
gentlest people I've ever met. -=-
Well, their wills are broken, and they consider that to be good. They're not
being sweet to impress you. They're being sweet and gentle (quiet) out of
the fear of God. They're told not to raise their voices. Spanking HARD is
okay, the younger the better, but raising a voice is not.
Children's wills are to be broken, and women's wills are to be broken,
according to this literature, provided by Mennonites to homeschoolers last month.
Sandra
<< 'm thinking of Anabaptists, Amish, Mennonites, and, specifically, Rod and
Staff curriculum users/sellers. I live in a predominately Amish/Mennonite
community, and a lot of them are homeschoolers, many of whom use or have used Rod
and Staff. There are a lot of things that are not in the Bible that are
important to these people, such as tradition (wedding, funeral, etc.), gathering
together for meals, family first, etc. >>
They will find Biblical justification for all that, easily. Even less
extreme fundamentalists (Southern Baptists) do so.
Another of the set of pamphlets I picked up says "In His Holy Word, God has
spoken on every subjct that concerns us." I was taught that in church too,
though, that there is no subject the Bible doesn't cover. If it's not in the
Bible, it's not something for us to concern ourselves with. If we find the need
to concern ourselves, we will find a Bible verse to cover it.
-=-Almost all of the Anabaptists and Mennonites I know are the sweetest,
gentlest people I've ever met. -=-
Well, their wills are broken, and they consider that to be good. They're not
being sweet to impress you. They're being sweet and gentle (quiet) out of
the fear of God. They're told not to raise their voices. Spanking HARD is
okay, the younger the better, but raising a voice is not.
Children's wills are to be broken, and women's wills are to be broken,
according to this literature, provided by Mennonites to homeschoolers last month.
Sandra
Krisula Moyer
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:59:08 -0400
From: "denice" <denice@...>
Subject: Re: *****Tagged_As_Possible_Spam***** Re: making sense, and not
making sense
<<What do you mean?
And of what group are you thinking?>>
I'm thinking of Anabaptists, Amish, Mennonites, and, specifically, Rod and
Staff curriculum users/sellers. I live in a predominately Amish/Mennonite
community, and a lot of them are homeschoolers, many of whom use or have
used Rod and Staff. There are a lot of things that are not in the Bible that
are important to these people, such as tradition (wedding, funeral, etc.),
gathering together for meals, family first, etc. Almost all of the
Anabaptists and Mennonites I know are the sweetest, gentlest people I've
ever met.
denice
FWIW the history of religion in America (specifically evangelicalism in its
many forms) might give some perspective here. Often there will be an issue
that theologians would consider "non-essential doctrine" which becomes a pet
topic for some people within a group. I think discipline of children is
such a topic now within Protestantism. The more unbending, stiff and strict
the sect, the more vitriolic the rhetoric may become. I am sure there is
not agreement even within the groups you mention on this issue. Those who
are yelling and bullying are more obvious than those quietly living their
own family's values, so your experience with your neighbors is very nice to
hear since we mostly hear from those who are shocking or trying to change
people's minds. For those interested in a little reading I would recommend
The Transformation of American Quakerism : Orthodox Friends, 1800-1907 by
Thomas D. Hamm. Not a book on children but a very interesting look at the
forces inside and outside a society and how mores and practices were
influenced and changed. It also gives a sidelong look at the history of
evangelical churches in this country including fundamentalism and what used
to be called pentacostalism. I see a lot of unnecessary repeating of
history in the ranks of many Christians. I also see many wise ones who are
not so easily taken in by charlatans selling beating sticks.
From: "denice" <denice@...>
Subject: Re: *****Tagged_As_Possible_Spam***** Re: making sense, and not
making sense
<<What do you mean?
And of what group are you thinking?>>
I'm thinking of Anabaptists, Amish, Mennonites, and, specifically, Rod and
Staff curriculum users/sellers. I live in a predominately Amish/Mennonite
community, and a lot of them are homeschoolers, many of whom use or have
used Rod and Staff. There are a lot of things that are not in the Bible that
are important to these people, such as tradition (wedding, funeral, etc.),
gathering together for meals, family first, etc. Almost all of the
Anabaptists and Mennonites I know are the sweetest, gentlest people I've
ever met.
denice
FWIW the history of religion in America (specifically evangelicalism in its
many forms) might give some perspective here. Often there will be an issue
that theologians would consider "non-essential doctrine" which becomes a pet
topic for some people within a group. I think discipline of children is
such a topic now within Protestantism. The more unbending, stiff and strict
the sect, the more vitriolic the rhetoric may become. I am sure there is
not agreement even within the groups you mention on this issue. Those who
are yelling and bullying are more obvious than those quietly living their
own family's values, so your experience with your neighbors is very nice to
hear since we mostly hear from those who are shocking or trying to change
people's minds. For those interested in a little reading I would recommend
The Transformation of American Quakerism : Orthodox Friends, 1800-1907 by
Thomas D. Hamm. Not a book on children but a very interesting look at the
forces inside and outside a society and how mores and practices were
influenced and changed. It also gives a sidelong look at the history of
evangelical churches in this country including fundamentalism and what used
to be called pentacostalism. I see a lot of unnecessary repeating of
history in the ranks of many Christians. I also see many wise ones who are
not so easily taken in by charlatans selling beating sticks.
denice
<<They're told not to raise their voices. Spanking HARD is
okay, the younger the better, but raising a voice is not.>>
Again, this is a generalization. My Amish neighbors do not believe in spanking. They are pacifists across the board. My Mennonite neighbors do not believe in spanking. They are pacifists to the point of not allowing squirt guns in their house. They are also pro-life across the board. No abortion, no capital punishment.
Krisula's post said:
<<I think discipline of children is such a topic now within Protestantism. The more unbending, stiff and strict the sect, the more vitriolic the rhetoric may become. I am sure there is not agreement even within the groups you mention on this issue. Those who are yelling and bullying are more obvious than those quietly living their own family's values, so your experience with your neighbors is very nice to hear since we mostly hear from those who are shocking or trying to change
people's minds. >>
For more info, I offer this website:
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/
denice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
okay, the younger the better, but raising a voice is not.>>
Again, this is a generalization. My Amish neighbors do not believe in spanking. They are pacifists across the board. My Mennonite neighbors do not believe in spanking. They are pacifists to the point of not allowing squirt guns in their house. They are also pro-life across the board. No abortion, no capital punishment.
Krisula's post said:
<<I think discipline of children is such a topic now within Protestantism. The more unbending, stiff and strict the sect, the more vitriolic the rhetoric may become. I am sure there is not agreement even within the groups you mention on this issue. Those who are yelling and bullying are more obvious than those quietly living their own family's values, so your experience with your neighbors is very nice to hear since we mostly hear from those who are shocking or trying to change
people's minds. >>
For more info, I offer this website:
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/
denice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/27/04 1:04:54 AM, krisulam@... writes:
<< I am sure there is
not agreement even within the groups you mention on this issue. >>
Whether one agrees or not, when a homeschooling family is distributing free
pamphlets at a homeschooling conference, they are aiding, abetting, colluding
and supporting the beliefs put forth in those pamphlets.
Sandra
<< I am sure there is
not agreement even within the groups you mention on this issue. >>
Whether one agrees or not, when a homeschooling family is distributing free
pamphlets at a homeschooling conference, they are aiding, abetting, colluding
and supporting the beliefs put forth in those pamphlets.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/27/04 7:48:09 AM, denice@... writes:
<< <<They're told not to raise their voices. Spanking HARD is
okay, the younger the better, but raising a voice is not.>>
<<Again, this is a generalization. >>
No, I can make it a quote from the Rod and Staff literature sitting on the
desk here if you want me to.
<<. My Amish neighbors do not believe in spanking. They are pacifists across
the board. My Mennonite neighbors do not believe in spanking. They are
pacifists to the point of not allowing squirt guns in their house. >>
Being pacifist isn't the same as not believing in spanking. Just because
they don't spank where you know about it doesn't mean they don't believe in it.
My contributions were comments directly from literature distributed free to
all kinds of homeschoolers by a Mennonite family at a homeschooling conference
in June, 2004. it's not about what the grandmothers might have believed and
passed down. It's detailed recommendation from Rod and Staff, being
distributed today.
Why do you think they have a whole curriculum called "Rod and Staff"?
<<For more info, I offer this website:
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/>>
That's not an Anabaptist or Mennonite website.
Here's lots of spanking reference and links:
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
It doesn't change the text of these pamphlets.
Unfortunately, Rod and Staff doesn't have a website, so even the pamphlets
have to be ordered by phone or mail (or you can pick them up free at
homeschooling conferences), but what I've quoted from were these:
The Responsibilites of Parents in Teaching and Training Their Children
Powers of the New Age
What I hadn't quoted from yet:
The Unequal Yoke and Related Dangers in Education
(which says they consider this to be going against God's will:) "...working
with unScriptural groups in evangelism or peace efforts."
They love peace, but not enough to join with people outside their own narrow
definition of "Scriptual" to achieve it)
The Veiling, a Symbol of Divine Order
which has this kind of logic:
"A veiled woman has power on her head. Power means 'privilege, freedom,
delegated influence and authority.' A woman in her place, under the authority of
man, has privilege, freedom and authority, of which a woman out of her place
knows nothing."
[One doesn't have to look far to find that belief, minus the veiling (cap, in
the case of this group). LOTS of homeschoolers say the father is the
principal and the mother is the teacher, in reference to homeschooling, and they cite
the Bible.]
God's Standard for Educating Our Children
"The teaching of self-expression is in complete opposition to Bible
principles. It militates against a life of obedience and submission."
So in saying people shouldn't talk about what they don't know, you're
defending people you casually see in public and at the same time assuming I didn't
have any idea about the beliefs of fundamentalist Christians. And I wasn't
even working from a fair-sized lump of personal experience and knowledge, but
quoting from pamphlets I've had a month.
Sandra
<< <<They're told not to raise their voices. Spanking HARD is
okay, the younger the better, but raising a voice is not.>>
<<Again, this is a generalization. >>
No, I can make it a quote from the Rod and Staff literature sitting on the
desk here if you want me to.
<<. My Amish neighbors do not believe in spanking. They are pacifists across
the board. My Mennonite neighbors do not believe in spanking. They are
pacifists to the point of not allowing squirt guns in their house. >>
Being pacifist isn't the same as not believing in spanking. Just because
they don't spank where you know about it doesn't mean they don't believe in it.
My contributions were comments directly from literature distributed free to
all kinds of homeschoolers by a Mennonite family at a homeschooling conference
in June, 2004. it's not about what the grandmothers might have believed and
passed down. It's detailed recommendation from Rod and Staff, being
distributed today.
Why do you think they have a whole curriculum called "Rod and Staff"?
<<For more info, I offer this website:
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/>>
That's not an Anabaptist or Mennonite website.
Here's lots of spanking reference and links:
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
It doesn't change the text of these pamphlets.
Unfortunately, Rod and Staff doesn't have a website, so even the pamphlets
have to be ordered by phone or mail (or you can pick them up free at
homeschooling conferences), but what I've quoted from were these:
The Responsibilites of Parents in Teaching and Training Their Children
Powers of the New Age
What I hadn't quoted from yet:
The Unequal Yoke and Related Dangers in Education
(which says they consider this to be going against God's will:) "...working
with unScriptural groups in evangelism or peace efforts."
They love peace, but not enough to join with people outside their own narrow
definition of "Scriptual" to achieve it)
The Veiling, a Symbol of Divine Order
which has this kind of logic:
"A veiled woman has power on her head. Power means 'privilege, freedom,
delegated influence and authority.' A woman in her place, under the authority of
man, has privilege, freedom and authority, of which a woman out of her place
knows nothing."
[One doesn't have to look far to find that belief, minus the veiling (cap, in
the case of this group). LOTS of homeschoolers say the father is the
principal and the mother is the teacher, in reference to homeschooling, and they cite
the Bible.]
God's Standard for Educating Our Children
"The teaching of self-expression is in complete opposition to Bible
principles. It militates against a life of obedience and submission."
So in saying people shouldn't talk about what they don't know, you're
defending people you casually see in public and at the same time assuming I didn't
have any idea about the beliefs of fundamentalist Christians. And I wasn't
even working from a fair-sized lump of personal experience and knowledge, but
quoting from pamphlets I've had a month.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/26/04 1:17:04 PM, denice@... writes:
<< <<If it's not in the Bible, it's not important to them.>>
<<This is actually not true. Be careful! It's easy to generalize and make
assumptions about things we don't understand. I think it's important to give the
same respect and tolerance to these groups as we would expect for ourselves.
The question was originally not about the pamphlets (sorry) but about the
quotes from Mark Roth's page (he was a missionary, child of missionaries, now is
running a Christian school and doing his missionary work on the internet).
The question was specifically about his internet pact which people in his own
congregation agree to and my comments (which were humorous, yet true,
addressed to someone who was asking honest yet purposely in-context-crazy questions)
were about that one congregation and their internet pact, which I had just
read about at some length.
So to say I was generalizing and making an untrue statement wasn't correct.
Sandra
<< <<If it's not in the Bible, it's not important to them.>>
<<This is actually not true. Be careful! It's easy to generalize and make
assumptions about things we don't understand. I think it's important to give the
same respect and tolerance to these groups as we would expect for ourselves.
>>Found the original again.
The question was originally not about the pamphlets (sorry) but about the
quotes from Mark Roth's page (he was a missionary, child of missionaries, now is
running a Christian school and doing his missionary work on the internet).
The question was specifically about his internet pact which people in his own
congregation agree to and my comments (which were humorous, yet true,
addressed to someone who was asking honest yet purposely in-context-crazy questions)
were about that one congregation and their internet pact, which I had just
read about at some length.
So to say I was generalizing and making an untrue statement wasn't correct.
Sandra
denice
<<Being pacifist isn't the same as not believing in spanking. Just because
they don't spank where you know about it doesn't mean they don't believe in it.>>
I'm sorry. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. They have *told* me that they don't believe in spanking.
denice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
they don't spank where you know about it doesn't mean they don't believe in it.>>
I'm sorry. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. They have *told* me that they don't believe in spanking.
denice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
><<Being pacifist isn't the same as not believing in spanking. Just becauseBut obviously some Mennonites do, as evidenced by the pamphlet in question.
>they don't spank where you know about it doesn't mean they don't believe
>in it.>>
>
>I'm sorry. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. They have *told* me that
>they don't believe in spanking.
Tia
denice
<<No, I can make it a quote from the Rod and Staff literature sitting on the desk here if you want me to.>>
I am familiar with Rod and Staff, and yes, they do believe in corporal punishment. However, Rod and Staff do not represent all Anabaptists. Actually, Anabaptist is a generic term:
Anabaptist is from the Greek [ana] meaning again, and [baptismos] meaning baptism. i.e., to re-baptize. The anabaptists were a radical sect that prospered during the start of the Reformation (1520-1580) who taught that infants should not be baptized, denied predestination, and believed that Christ had a celestial flesh, and He did not develop from the mortal flesh of Mary.
There are a lot of groups that fall under the Anabaptist category. Amish and Mennonite are the two that I know of personally.
<<That's not an Anabaptist or Mennonite website.>>
No, it's not. This was in reference to Krisula's post, which I quoted above the link, and her reference to Protestantism. Actually, the Lawrence's don't give any indication what denomination they are, other than that they are Christians.
denice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am familiar with Rod and Staff, and yes, they do believe in corporal punishment. However, Rod and Staff do not represent all Anabaptists. Actually, Anabaptist is a generic term:
Anabaptist is from the Greek [ana] meaning again, and [baptismos] meaning baptism. i.e., to re-baptize. The anabaptists were a radical sect that prospered during the start of the Reformation (1520-1580) who taught that infants should not be baptized, denied predestination, and believed that Christ had a celestial flesh, and He did not develop from the mortal flesh of Mary.
There are a lot of groups that fall under the Anabaptist category. Amish and Mennonite are the two that I know of personally.
<<That's not an Anabaptist or Mennonite website.>>
No, it's not. This was in reference to Krisula's post, which I quoted above the link, and her reference to Protestantism. Actually, the Lawrence's don't give any indication what denomination they are, other than that they are Christians.
denice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
denice
<<So in saying people shouldn't talk about what they don't know, you're
defending people you casually see in public >>
Actually, no. These are personal friends and next-door neighbors. I'm not
assuming anything about you. I was simply saying that the statement that the
only thing important to Anabaptists are what is in the Bible is not true. I
simply wanted to clarify a generalization. The original comment to which I
was responding was:
<<-=-What if you were looking for graphics of sexual reproduction
(like genes dividing) to explain the basics of genetics for someone? -=-
If it's not in the Bible, it's not important to them.>>
And I simply stated that this is not true, if you're talking about
Anabaptists/Mennonites/Amish in general. I know many people who have
attended EMU or other Mennonite Universities, and they study many things,
not just what's in the Bible. Amish children attend school until 8th grade,
and they learn a lot of things that are discussed in the Bible.
I'm not saying that Rod and Staff members do not believe in these tenants
you've listed. I'm not saying that there are Mennonites who believe these
things. I'm simply clarifying that not all Anabaptists practice the type of
lifestyles that Rod and Staff Publications does.
denice
defending people you casually see in public >>
Actually, no. These are personal friends and next-door neighbors. I'm not
assuming anything about you. I was simply saying that the statement that the
only thing important to Anabaptists are what is in the Bible is not true. I
simply wanted to clarify a generalization. The original comment to which I
was responding was:
<<-=-What if you were looking for graphics of sexual reproduction
(like genes dividing) to explain the basics of genetics for someone? -=-
If it's not in the Bible, it's not important to them.>>
And I simply stated that this is not true, if you're talking about
Anabaptists/Mennonites/Amish in general. I know many people who have
attended EMU or other Mennonite Universities, and they study many things,
not just what's in the Bible. Amish children attend school until 8th grade,
and they learn a lot of things that are discussed in the Bible.
I'm not saying that Rod and Staff members do not believe in these tenants
you've listed. I'm not saying that there are Mennonites who believe these
things. I'm simply clarifying that not all Anabaptists practice the type of
lifestyles that Rod and Staff Publications does.
denice
denice
<<So to say I was generalizing and making an untrue statement wasn't correct.>>
Then I apologize. When you asked me of what group I was thinking specifically, "What do you mean? And of what group are you thinking?" I clarified by saying that I was thinking specifically of Mennonites/Amish Anabaptists, since that is the group you specifically mentioned when you said that the Bible was the only important thing to them and that amusement was Satanic. I wanted to clarify that not ALL Anabaptists feel as the Rod and Staff people do and many of them are very good people. On the converse, there are many Amish/Mennonite people who are not "Christian" at all.
denice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Then I apologize. When you asked me of what group I was thinking specifically, "What do you mean? And of what group are you thinking?" I clarified by saying that I was thinking specifically of Mennonites/Amish Anabaptists, since that is the group you specifically mentioned when you said that the Bible was the only important thing to them and that amusement was Satanic. I wanted to clarify that not ALL Anabaptists feel as the Rod and Staff people do and many of them are very good people. On the converse, there are many Amish/Mennonite people who are not "Christian" at all.
denice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
denice
Whoops! I wrote:
<<and they learn a lot of things that are discussed in the Bible.>>
What I meant to say is that they learn a lot of things that *aren't*
discussed in the Bible. :-)
denice
<<and they learn a lot of things that are discussed in the Bible.>>
What I meant to say is that they learn a lot of things that *aren't*
discussed in the Bible. :-)
denice
Elizabeth Hill
**
The Veiling, a Symbol of Divine Order
which has this kind of logic:
"A veiled woman has power on her head. Power means 'privilege, freedom,
delegated influence and authority.' A woman in her place, under the authority of
man, has privilege, freedom and authority, of which a woman out of her place
knows nothing."**
Well, that's really Orwellian!
Betsy
The Veiling, a Symbol of Divine Order
which has this kind of logic:
"A veiled woman has power on her head. Power means 'privilege, freedom,
delegated influence and authority.' A woman in her place, under the authority of
man, has privilege, freedom and authority, of which a woman out of her place
knows nothing."**
Well, that's really Orwellian!
Betsy