RE: [AlwaysLearning] Curious
Dawn Falbe
I guess in some ways I'm glad I grew up in England because we have a
different system, albeit a system, for separating the kids and we don't
have grades. When people start to talk to me about someone being in 7th
grade of whatever grade it is I usually stop them and say "and what age
is that". In all the 22 years of living in America I have never
bothered to either learn or remember what age goes with what grade....
Now I know why... Because it wasn't going to be relevant to my life or
my kids lives.
Zak nearly 9 says "I'm not in a grade I'm homeschooled"... Most of the
times that enough for the kids he comes across and then they just start
playing together. When people tell me what grade their child is in many
times, although I'm doing this less, I will say "oh how sad that your
kids go to that prison all day, what did they do wrong that would make
you want to send them there?" Of course people don't often want
anything to do with me after that... Which again is ok. I've stopped
saying that now and have found sometimes it's best to just say "there
are no grades in his school" and leave it at that.
Namaste
Dawn F
Tucson. AZ
different system, albeit a system, for separating the kids and we don't
have grades. When people start to talk to me about someone being in 7th
grade of whatever grade it is I usually stop them and say "and what age
is that". In all the 22 years of living in America I have never
bothered to either learn or remember what age goes with what grade....
Now I know why... Because it wasn't going to be relevant to my life or
my kids lives.
Zak nearly 9 says "I'm not in a grade I'm homeschooled"... Most of the
times that enough for the kids he comes across and then they just start
playing together. When people tell me what grade their child is in many
times, although I'm doing this less, I will say "oh how sad that your
kids go to that prison all day, what did they do wrong that would make
you want to send them there?" Of course people don't often want
anything to do with me after that... Which again is ok. I've stopped
saying that now and have found sometimes it's best to just say "there
are no grades in his school" and leave it at that.
Namaste
Dawn F
Tucson. AZ
linda h
I have been reading the messages from here in my e-mail and I am curious about one. The message titled "Kids Helping out" started with one mom wanting members to share their experiences with kids just helping out on their on. At least that's how I understood her post, which is great, I enjoyed reading the different responses even the one from "swismiself". What I don't understand is why so many people felt like they had to take apart her response and try to "teach" her the "right" way. She was only answering the original post not asking any questions. Like I said, I was just curious about the reaction she got, but from someone who has just been reading the posts here I can really see were she probably got upset over the whole thing.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 19, 2010, at 8:55 PM, linda h wrote:
social network at all. Because most people assume the only purpose of
a list is for meeting other like minded people they don't even
question it.
But the list has a description at Yahoo, a welcome letter with an
explanation and a suggestion to read for a while to get a feel for it.
This list is unusual. This list exists specifically for examining,
dissecting, analyzing what works and what doesn't work for unschooling.
I'm sorry it blindsides people, but it shouldn't. The information
about the list comes right to people's mailboxes. It really is a good
idea to read it.
where the lessons are imposed, people sign onto the list specifically
to dissect what they do to figure out what's getting in the way of
unschooling running smoothly for them. (Or they come to read the
dissection of other's problems which is often much easier to take in
for most people.)
I think Pam worded it succinctly:
what the list is about has been going on for years despite
explanations. It's like trying to explain why a dolphin isn't a fish
when most everything about it says "fish".
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What I don't understand is why so many people felt like they had toBecause the list is not a social share-what-we-do list. It is not a
> take apart her response
social network at all. Because most people assume the only purpose of
a list is for meeting other like minded people they don't even
question it.
But the list has a description at Yahoo, a welcome letter with an
explanation and a suggestion to read for a while to get a feel for it.
This list is unusual. This list exists specifically for examining,
dissecting, analyzing what works and what doesn't work for unschooling.
I'm sorry it blindsides people, but it shouldn't. The information
about the list comes right to people's mailboxes. It really is a good
idea to read it.
> and try to "teach" her the "right" way.Oddly for an unschooling list, that's the purpose. But unlike school
where the lessons are imposed, people sign onto the list specifically
to dissect what they do to figure out what's getting in the way of
unschooling running smoothly for them. (Or they come to read the
dissection of other's problems which is often much easier to take in
for most people.)
I think Pam worded it succinctly:
>> People should post only what they want read critically, that is, withDoes that make sense?
>> careful, exact evaluation and judgment.
> She was only answering the original post not asking any questions.Did you read what Sandra posted?
>> "The list is about ideas, not about people.Does that also make sense? I'm truly curious! The misunderstanding of
>> "Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
>> tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
>> batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
>> person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
>> cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
>> and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
what the list is about has been going on for years despite
explanations. It's like trying to explain why a dolphin isn't a fish
when most everything about it says "fish".
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-But the list has a description at Yahoo, a welcome letter with an
explanation and a suggestion to read for a while to get a feel for it.-
=-
Is that welcome letter arriving? No one has let me know whether it is
or not.
-=-I'm sorry it blindsides people, but it shouldn't. The information
about the list comes right to people's mailboxes. It really is a good
idea to read it.-=-
Could someone who has joined lately respond to this and say whether
you got a welcome letter talking about the difference between this
list and others?
Thanks,
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
explanation and a suggestion to read for a while to get a feel for it.-
=-
Is that welcome letter arriving? No one has let me know whether it is
or not.
-=-I'm sorry it blindsides people, but it shouldn't. The information
about the list comes right to people's mailboxes. It really is a good
idea to read it.-=-
Could someone who has joined lately respond to this and say whether
you got a welcome letter talking about the difference between this
list and others?
Thanks,
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
organicmom111
Yes! It is arriving. (at least I got it when I joined) And I want to say that my first post to the group wasnt exactly in keeping with the tone and purpose ( not intentionally :), and Sandra politely gave me some insight into that. (which I appreciated ) I hope all those who have been redirected a bit, can understand and not take it personally. On another unschooling group, a woman posted who 'has grown kids, but "unschooled" them' supposedly , and she preceded to tell us how they had 4 basic principles in their home, and when someone does ___ they get sent to their room to reflect, 'but its their choice', and many other rules, etc.(her initail tone was VERY authoritarian etc.......It wasnt unschooling at all.....and many people popped up to say so.......)She became offended, etc... then the 'debate' started. The group moderator stated that the purpose was to help others understand what unschooling is, and that that didnt sound like unschooling to her either. But many felt it necessary to coddle and stroke the initial poster. She now is one of the main posters lately, and I can barely stand to read the posts. The tone of the group seems lost,and the message mixed as to what unschooling and attachment parenting really are about. I respect that this group stays true to its message. I would hate for a newcomer to see those posts and assume for ex that making a 2 yold pick up or he cant do ___ is unschooling.
I like that the moderators are active here, and keep it on track. :)
I like that the moderators are active here, and keep it on track. :)
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-But the list has a description at Yahoo, a welcome letter with an
> explanation and a suggestion to read for a while to get a feel for it.-
> =-
>
> Is that welcome letter arriving? No one has let me know whether it is
> or not.
>
> -=-I'm sorry it blindsides people, but it shouldn't. The information
> about the list comes right to people's mailboxes. It really is a good
> idea to read it.-=-
>
> Could someone who has joined lately respond to this and say whether
> you got a welcome letter talking about the difference between this
> list and others?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jenny Cyphers
***What I don't understand is why so many people felt like they had to take
apart her response and try to "teach" her the "right" way. She was only
answering the original post not asking any questions. Like I said, I was just
curious about the reaction she got, but from someone who has just been reading
the posts here I can really see were she probably got upset over the whole
thing.***
I didn't respond to it right away because of this. My initial feeling about it
was the same in which others were feeling too. There were things she said, in
amongst all the sweet stuff, that stood out as counter productive to
unschooling.
If people come to this yahoo list and it doesn't get questioned, others may
follow and come back to this list with questions on how to undo that. Lots of
people get lots of ideas and advice from lots of people, even on unschooling
lists. Some ideas and advice are better than others. Some ideas and advice
work and some work for a while when kids are young and cease to work when kids
are older.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
apart her response and try to "teach" her the "right" way. She was only
answering the original post not asking any questions. Like I said, I was just
curious about the reaction she got, but from someone who has just been reading
the posts here I can really see were she probably got upset over the whole
thing.***
I didn't respond to it right away because of this. My initial feeling about it
was the same in which others were feeling too. There were things she said, in
amongst all the sweet stuff, that stood out as counter productive to
unschooling.
If people come to this yahoo list and it doesn't get questioned, others may
follow and come back to this list with questions on how to undo that. Lots of
people get lots of ideas and advice from lots of people, even on unschooling
lists. Some ideas and advice are better than others. Some ideas and advice
work and some work for a while when kids are young and cease to work when kids
are older.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The message titled "Kids Helping out" started with one mom wanting
members to share their experiences with kids just helping out on their
on. At least that's how I understood her post, which is great, I
enjoyed reading the different responses even the one from
"swismiself".-=-
The purpose of the group is to discuss the principles of unschooling.
No matter what the original questions or stories might be, the
discussion is always intended to be about unschooling.
-=- What I don't understand is why so many people felt like they had
to take apart her response and try to "teach" her the "right" way. She
was only answering the original post not asking any questions. -=-
Any information that's counter to unschooling will be put on the table
for dissection. That's the purpose of the list and has been for a long
time.
When someone's oldest child isn't half as old as this discussion list,
and isn't yet school age, it's probably a really good idea for that
person to read and not post for a while more.
I know it can be frustrating, but if we were "a support group," it
would just be one more of the thousands of parenting groups online.
Support looks like this:
http://sandradodd.com/support
I know not everyone reads group stats, but in the past week there are
8 new members and 312 new messages. The list shows 2704 members, but
I guess a third or so are not reading much if ever. There are over
56,000 messages in the archives. The search function works pretty
well. No one is required to read or post. It's a project undertaken
and mantained voluntarily, but I won't waste my time or the
moderators' dedication doing less than we've agreed to do. And if we
tried to make every new member happy it would make many of the
established members UNhappy.
Keep it about unschooling.
There are things to read about the list. I'm going to put more links
on the front page at yahoo, though I suspect those who complain
haven't really looked into the particulars of the list.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
(also in the files area of the list as This list is different--Please
Read! )
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
(also in the files area of the list as About Posts to Always Learning
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
members to share their experiences with kids just helping out on their
on. At least that's how I understood her post, which is great, I
enjoyed reading the different responses even the one from
"swismiself".-=-
The purpose of the group is to discuss the principles of unschooling.
No matter what the original questions or stories might be, the
discussion is always intended to be about unschooling.
-=- What I don't understand is why so many people felt like they had
to take apart her response and try to "teach" her the "right" way. She
was only answering the original post not asking any questions. -=-
Any information that's counter to unschooling will be put on the table
for dissection. That's the purpose of the list and has been for a long
time.
When someone's oldest child isn't half as old as this discussion list,
and isn't yet school age, it's probably a really good idea for that
person to read and not post for a while more.
I know it can be frustrating, but if we were "a support group," it
would just be one more of the thousands of parenting groups online.
Support looks like this:
http://sandradodd.com/support
I know not everyone reads group stats, but in the past week there are
8 new members and 312 new messages. The list shows 2704 members, but
I guess a third or so are not reading much if ever. There are over
56,000 messages in the archives. The search function works pretty
well. No one is required to read or post. It's a project undertaken
and mantained voluntarily, but I won't waste my time or the
moderators' dedication doing less than we've agreed to do. And if we
tried to make every new member happy it would make many of the
established members UNhappy.
Keep it about unschooling.
There are things to read about the list. I'm going to put more links
on the front page at yahoo, though I suspect those who complain
haven't really looked into the particulars of the list.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
(also in the files area of the list as This list is different--Please
Read! )
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
(also in the files area of the list as About Posts to Always Learning
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aldq75
"The tone of the group seems lost, and the message mixed as to what unschooling [is] really about."
---
I've been reading on this list for several months now and really appreciate that Sandra and the other experienced unschoolers do not let that happen here.
I wonder if part of the confusion about the dissection of ideas is that some see unschooling as a way of learning that applies only to traditional academics and skills, while many others see it as a lifestyle. (In addition to not reading the welcome letter.) I've known about unschooling for at least a decade, but it was only within the past three years that I started to examine and understand how it applies to other aspects of life.
Andrea Q
---
I've been reading on this list for several months now and really appreciate that Sandra and the other experienced unschoolers do not let that happen here.
I wonder if part of the confusion about the dissection of ideas is that some see unschooling as a way of learning that applies only to traditional academics and skills, while many others see it as a lifestyle. (In addition to not reading the welcome letter.) I've known about unschooling for at least a decade, but it was only within the past three years that I started to examine and understand how it applies to other aspects of life.
Andrea Q
deannat97
== I know it can be frustrating, but if we were "a support group," it would just be one more of the thousands of parenting groups online.==
==The list shows 2704 members, but I guess a third or so are not reading much if ever.==
I have been a member of this group for more than five years. I have posted questions or comments perhaps three or four times in all those years. I have read almost daily, initially to try and figure out what the heck I was doing with this idea of unschooling. It was probably much further down the timeline from there that I began to see how much of my difficulties with wrapping my head around certain concepts or responses were due to my own history/beliefs/fears from long ago. This group has greatly helped me to examine my thoughts and beliefs, has helped me be a much better partner to my child, a more thought-full person in the world.
I never came here looking for friends or people to make me feel okay as a mom. I came to this group to Learn, to examine and expand ideas and concepts. It makes me think, and privately mull over unschooling as it is interpreted through our family's life. Sometimes, in the past, simply reading posts and responses would make me very uncomfortable, but not anymore. I am glad I have stayed all these years, and my entire family is happier and more relaxed for it. And I am very thankful to those who take the time and care to post and point the way to seeing things from a different angle.
Deanna
==The list shows 2704 members, but I guess a third or so are not reading much if ever.==
I have been a member of this group for more than five years. I have posted questions or comments perhaps three or four times in all those years. I have read almost daily, initially to try and figure out what the heck I was doing with this idea of unschooling. It was probably much further down the timeline from there that I began to see how much of my difficulties with wrapping my head around certain concepts or responses were due to my own history/beliefs/fears from long ago. This group has greatly helped me to examine my thoughts and beliefs, has helped me be a much better partner to my child, a more thought-full person in the world.
I never came here looking for friends or people to make me feel okay as a mom. I came to this group to Learn, to examine and expand ideas and concepts. It makes me think, and privately mull over unschooling as it is interpreted through our family's life. Sometimes, in the past, simply reading posts and responses would make me very uncomfortable, but not anymore. I am glad I have stayed all these years, and my entire family is happier and more relaxed for it. And I am very thankful to those who take the time and care to post and point the way to seeing things from a different angle.
Deanna
Susanne
I joined a few months ago, and received the letter. It was quite clear to me, but maybe also because I was told by a friend what kind of list this is.
I find this heavily moderated list a very useful way of organizing both personal and more common information. I don't think it would help anyone who reads on this list because they want to know more about unschooling, if it was mildly moderated.
I did need to get used to the style though, which is why I think the advice you get as a new member, to read for a few months(?) before you post, is very worthwhile. Also reading up on subjects that are of interest for your own situation on the web site is very helpful, and many questions can be answered by that, without even posting.
Bye, Susanne
I find this heavily moderated list a very useful way of organizing both personal and more common information. I don't think it would help anyone who reads on this list because they want to know more about unschooling, if it was mildly moderated.
I did need to get used to the style though, which is why I think the advice you get as a new member, to read for a few months(?) before you post, is very worthwhile. Also reading up on subjects that are of interest for your own situation on the web site is very helpful, and many questions can be answered by that, without even posting.
Bye, Susanne
> Could someone who has joined lately respond to this and say whether
> you got a welcome letter talking about the difference between this
> list and others?
>
> Thanks,
>
Lilly Blue
"What I don't understand is why so many people felt like they had to take apart her response and try to "teach" her the "right" way. She was only answering the original post not asking any questions."
I am so deeply grateful that there are people on this list who are experienced, insightful, articulate, critical, aware and generous enough to hear a seemingly innocuous post and identify the possible blocks to unschooling hidden in the words. Actually I don't think the potential blocks were particularly hidden in the original post, and I learnt a lot from the responses.
I have been reading on this list for about a year, my daughter is 19 months old and I am a single mother. I am deschooling, gradually beginning to understand the principles of unschooling, and slowly becoming aware of how to incorporate the ideas into our lives. I am becoming much better at hearing the voice in my head and questioning it before I speak or act. I often ask myself why something needs to be a certain way. I think asking why a child needs to put his toys away before going out to play is a fundamental question to explore in an unschooling home. Twyla (my daughter) asked for a banana half way through dinner tonight. The voice in my head said "You need to finish your dinner first", but why, why did she need to finish her dinner first? I gave her the banana, she ate it, then she finished her salmon pasta, then she had some strawberries. If she had not finished her pasta that would have been okay too. She might have just wanted to open the banana and not eat it, she has just learned to do that herself and is very excited about it. She might have eaten half of it and come back for the rest later. Sometimes she asks for sultanas in the middle of dinner. Often she likes to be read only the first few pages of a book before moving on to the next one, or to just look at one page. Tonight she pretended the book we were reading was eating her foot, and thought it was hilarious. If something has to be a certain way then there are all kinds of surprises that can never happen. Having to clean up before going outside to play sounds like a rule to me, and I think it is worth at least asking yourself why it is necessary. You might find that your son is learning something vastly different than what you are hoping by refusing to let him go outside until it is done.
Thank you for the clarity and clear critical examination, it helps so much.
Lilly
_________________________________________________________________
New, Used, Demo, Dealer or Private? Find it at CarPoint.com.au
http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/206222968/direct/01/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am so deeply grateful that there are people on this list who are experienced, insightful, articulate, critical, aware and generous enough to hear a seemingly innocuous post and identify the possible blocks to unschooling hidden in the words. Actually I don't think the potential blocks were particularly hidden in the original post, and I learnt a lot from the responses.
I have been reading on this list for about a year, my daughter is 19 months old and I am a single mother. I am deschooling, gradually beginning to understand the principles of unschooling, and slowly becoming aware of how to incorporate the ideas into our lives. I am becoming much better at hearing the voice in my head and questioning it before I speak or act. I often ask myself why something needs to be a certain way. I think asking why a child needs to put his toys away before going out to play is a fundamental question to explore in an unschooling home. Twyla (my daughter) asked for a banana half way through dinner tonight. The voice in my head said "You need to finish your dinner first", but why, why did she need to finish her dinner first? I gave her the banana, she ate it, then she finished her salmon pasta, then she had some strawberries. If she had not finished her pasta that would have been okay too. She might have just wanted to open the banana and not eat it, she has just learned to do that herself and is very excited about it. She might have eaten half of it and come back for the rest later. Sometimes she asks for sultanas in the middle of dinner. Often she likes to be read only the first few pages of a book before moving on to the next one, or to just look at one page. Tonight she pretended the book we were reading was eating her foot, and thought it was hilarious. If something has to be a certain way then there are all kinds of surprises that can never happen. Having to clean up before going outside to play sounds like a rule to me, and I think it is worth at least asking yourself why it is necessary. You might find that your son is learning something vastly different than what you are hoping by refusing to let him go outside until it is done.
Thank you for the clarity and clear critical examination, it helps so much.
Lilly
_________________________________________________________________
New, Used, Demo, Dealer or Private? Find it at CarPoint.com.au
http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/206222968/direct/01/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 19, 2010, at 11:29 PM, aldq75 wrote:
doing is working for them. Why would they? So it's not necessarily
that they draw a line between academics and parenting but that they're
applying unschooling to the parts that they're not liking the
traditional approaches for.
I also think part of the problem is that we're helping people
"unschool." But not everyone has the same definition of what
unschooling is. So if someone on the list says "That won't help
unschooling," or "That's not unschooling," they're defensively
thinking "It works for my definition of unschooling." I've been trying
recently to name a specific principle like relationships or natural
learning that an idea supports rather than the not-universally-agreed-
on term unschooling and reserving the term unschooling for the big
picture.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I wonder if part of the confusion about the dissection of ideas isPartly. People tend not to question what they're doing if what they're
> that some see unschooling as a way of learning that applies only to
> traditional academics and skills, while many others see it as a
> lifestyle.
doing is working for them. Why would they? So it's not necessarily
that they draw a line between academics and parenting but that they're
applying unschooling to the parts that they're not liking the
traditional approaches for.
I also think part of the problem is that we're helping people
"unschool." But not everyone has the same definition of what
unschooling is. So if someone on the list says "That won't help
unschooling," or "That's not unschooling," they're defensively
thinking "It works for my definition of unschooling." I've been trying
recently to name a specific principle like relationships or natural
learning that an idea supports rather than the not-universally-agreed-
on term unschooling and reserving the term unschooling for the big
picture.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
"What I don't understand is why so many people felt like they had to take
apart her response and try to "teach" her the "right" way. She was only
answering the original post not asking any questions."
I think an analogy might help. A mother can say, "we will go out for ice
cream after lunch". This is a common exchange.
In an unschooling exchange where the goal is not to reward or punish a
child to finish a meal the mother may simply need to eat herself so she can
drive. Lots of moms are short tempered from not eating or become tired.
She may, if the lunch is portable and the children anxious to get to the ice
cream parlour, eat her lunch en route. Soup travels in a mug and a sandwich
is easily eaten while strolling.
Conventionally when a mother says, "ice cream after lunch" she is making
lunch *the precondition *to getting ice cream. Her intention is to withhold
ice cream in order to "coerce" her children into eating what she has decided
is a wholesome meal first. She may not see it this way. She may spout
something about consequences or even nutrition. But the fact is she is using
her power to coerce her child into jumping through hoops for the reward. I
have heard many well-reasoned arguements from mothers explaining its just a
sequence of events, "first we eat lunch and then we go for ice cream". But
of course if the ice cream eating only happens after lunch it is a
reward/punishment scenario albeit thinly disguised.
In both cases the children may eat lunch prior to going for ice cream with
their mothers. In one case the children may not enjoy their treat as much
or may see it differently because it was not an option presented lovingly
but a threat used against them.
In a different scenario this lack of respect could even put the children at
risk from paedophiles because the children are preconditioned to accept pain
or to have their wills overridden or simply taught they have to obey adults
by adults they love.
I remember as a new parent reading about a London abduction described by
Penelope Leach. All the girls had been "street" proofed. The girl who
saved the day was annoying to adults. She didn't obey the strange man she
said because her dad would never send a strange man to pick her up from
school without telling her and he always told her it was okay to think for
herself and ask questions. The strange man told the girls to be quiet, get
in his car and to stop questioning his authority because they would be in
big trouble from their dads. They did as they were told, except the girl
who knew her dad would never punish her for asking questions and being
"disobedient". She told a teacher and the girls were unharmed.
It is not that people have issues with children contributing to making the
house nice or putting things away or cooking. It is that when the child is
rewarded or punished for the contribution, many pointed out it was not
longer the child's gift of love but parental force driving the behaviour.
People think that is not nurturing a trusting relationship.
Unschooling parents can have expectations, principals and ideas. For
instance I buy candles, and sparklers and we use them together. I have met
lots of kids who like to play with fire. Many parents hope that the
curiousity can be squelched or ignorned and the matches hidden or just never
in their house. I had parents take matches from my kids, quite roughly. I
have had to step in. In some cases because their rule is kids can't have
matches and they don't like my kids holding the matches. My kids understand
fire safety, but many adults don't.
We explored with campfires and used fire permits issued by a local park to
have public campfires. I let my kids hold the matches and light the fire.
Even unschooling parents tried to control my kids' lighting of the fire and
diminish the experience for them. My sil and I organized an unschooling
communal "campfire" in a park and had a stone soup/potluck/marshmallow roast
because our kids like fire and we wanted to share it safely with other
unschoolers! Other unschoolers wanted to So, another example of unschooling
parents having rules rather than principles...
:-)
Marina
apart her response and try to "teach" her the "right" way. She was only
answering the original post not asking any questions."
I think an analogy might help. A mother can say, "we will go out for ice
cream after lunch". This is a common exchange.
In an unschooling exchange where the goal is not to reward or punish a
child to finish a meal the mother may simply need to eat herself so she can
drive. Lots of moms are short tempered from not eating or become tired.
She may, if the lunch is portable and the children anxious to get to the ice
cream parlour, eat her lunch en route. Soup travels in a mug and a sandwich
is easily eaten while strolling.
Conventionally when a mother says, "ice cream after lunch" she is making
lunch *the precondition *to getting ice cream. Her intention is to withhold
ice cream in order to "coerce" her children into eating what she has decided
is a wholesome meal first. She may not see it this way. She may spout
something about consequences or even nutrition. But the fact is she is using
her power to coerce her child into jumping through hoops for the reward. I
have heard many well-reasoned arguements from mothers explaining its just a
sequence of events, "first we eat lunch and then we go for ice cream". But
of course if the ice cream eating only happens after lunch it is a
reward/punishment scenario albeit thinly disguised.
In both cases the children may eat lunch prior to going for ice cream with
their mothers. In one case the children may not enjoy their treat as much
or may see it differently because it was not an option presented lovingly
but a threat used against them.
In a different scenario this lack of respect could even put the children at
risk from paedophiles because the children are preconditioned to accept pain
or to have their wills overridden or simply taught they have to obey adults
by adults they love.
I remember as a new parent reading about a London abduction described by
Penelope Leach. All the girls had been "street" proofed. The girl who
saved the day was annoying to adults. She didn't obey the strange man she
said because her dad would never send a strange man to pick her up from
school without telling her and he always told her it was okay to think for
herself and ask questions. The strange man told the girls to be quiet, get
in his car and to stop questioning his authority because they would be in
big trouble from their dads. They did as they were told, except the girl
who knew her dad would never punish her for asking questions and being
"disobedient". She told a teacher and the girls were unharmed.
It is not that people have issues with children contributing to making the
house nice or putting things away or cooking. It is that when the child is
rewarded or punished for the contribution, many pointed out it was not
longer the child's gift of love but parental force driving the behaviour.
People think that is not nurturing a trusting relationship.
Unschooling parents can have expectations, principals and ideas. For
instance I buy candles, and sparklers and we use them together. I have met
lots of kids who like to play with fire. Many parents hope that the
curiousity can be squelched or ignorned and the matches hidden or just never
in their house. I had parents take matches from my kids, quite roughly. I
have had to step in. In some cases because their rule is kids can't have
matches and they don't like my kids holding the matches. My kids understand
fire safety, but many adults don't.
We explored with campfires and used fire permits issued by a local park to
have public campfires. I let my kids hold the matches and light the fire.
Even unschooling parents tried to control my kids' lighting of the fire and
diminish the experience for them. My sil and I organized an unschooling
communal "campfire" in a park and had a stone soup/potluck/marshmallow roast
because our kids like fire and we wanted to share it safely with other
unschoolers! Other unschoolers wanted to So, another example of unschooling
parents having rules rather than principles...
:-)
Marina
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> I
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sometimes she asks for sultanas in the middle of dinner.-=-
Translation into American English: sultana=raisin
Another aspect to the problem of posts by too-new-to-unschooling
writers is that the moderators could just reject them all in advance.
Sometimes a post comes and I send it back to the writer and say "This
is likely to be torn apart; wait and read a week or so and if you
still want to post it, you can." I'm not the only moderator.
Sometimes when I go to return a post, it's already been approved by
another moderator. That's fine. Sometimes when I go to approve a
post, it's already been returned by another moderator. That's fine too.
More posts are let through than returned. Sometimes I cringe when a
post is approved because I know it will be pulled into its parts.
Sometimes a post is so arrogant that I'm glad to have it through so I
can be the one to shine the light on it and say "What!?"
Sometimes I send a post back for the poster's own good and get a
volley of insult on the side.
If my goal were to make everyone happy who finds this list, I would
feel "I can never win."
As my goal is to make the list as much about the examination of
unschooling as it can be, I can only win by sometimes shining a light
on something and saying "What!?"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Translation into American English: sultana=raisin
Another aspect to the problem of posts by too-new-to-unschooling
writers is that the moderators could just reject them all in advance.
Sometimes a post comes and I send it back to the writer and say "This
is likely to be torn apart; wait and read a week or so and if you
still want to post it, you can." I'm not the only moderator.
Sometimes when I go to return a post, it's already been approved by
another moderator. That's fine. Sometimes when I go to approve a
post, it's already been returned by another moderator. That's fine too.
More posts are let through than returned. Sometimes I cringe when a
post is approved because I know it will be pulled into its parts.
Sometimes a post is so arrogant that I'm glad to have it through so I
can be the one to shine the light on it and say "What!?"
Sometimes I send a post back for the poster's own good and get a
volley of insult on the side.
If my goal were to make everyone happy who finds this list, I would
feel "I can never win."
As my goal is to make the list as much about the examination of
unschooling as it can be, I can only win by sometimes shining a light
on something and saying "What!?"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
oops lost some text...should read below to make sense of my last post.
Other unschoolers wanted to step in and dictate to my kids how things should
proceed at our campfire. Their rules around fire were kneejerk--kids can't
be trusted to hold matches. It wasn't based on actual danger
avoidance(principles). The reason behind a rule obfuscates real danger if
you focus on the rule. The campfire was held to find a safe space to enjoy
fire. So, another example of "unschooling parents" having rules rather than
principles...
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Other unschoolers wanted to step in and dictate to my kids how things should
proceed at our campfire. Their rules around fire were kneejerk--kids can't
be trusted to hold matches. It wasn't based on actual danger
avoidance(principles). The reason behind a rule obfuscates real danger if
you focus on the rule. The campfire was held to find a safe space to enjoy
fire. So, another example of "unschooling parents" having rules rather than
principles...
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
On Jul 20, 2010, at 10:26 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
I remember sultana biscuits from my childhood in Canada; we enjoyed
them with tea. You can still get the biscuits at Vermont Country
Store: http://tinyurl.com/27ucloz In the U.S., they're called
Garibaldi Biscuits.
I've heard them called "squashed fly biscuits" too <g>.
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-Sometimes she asks for sultanas in the middle of dinner.-=-Nice Wikipedia entry on sultanas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultana_(grape)
>
> Translation into American English: sultana=raisin
I remember sultana biscuits from my childhood in Canada; we enjoyed
them with tea. You can still get the biscuits at Vermont Country
Store: http://tinyurl.com/27ucloz In the U.S., they're called
Garibaldi Biscuits.
I've heard them called "squashed fly biscuits" too <g>.
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Some people learn about lists and forums by jumping in with both feet. While its a way to learn a whole lot really fast for some people it also certainly generates more confusion and hurt feelings than a strategy of reading for a while before posting.
An analogy that helped me, back when I was first getting used to unschooling discussions, was that of culture shock. Going from Chicago to TN, I experienced a good bit of culture shock - the difference between "personal" and "impersonal" for instance, in Chicago its the height of courtesy to be impersonal, while in TN the opposite is more nearly true. Parents expect parenting discussions to be personal the way "y'all come back now, y'hear?" and "bless your heart" are personal, and they get "ideas not people". Its a shock, and because new people keep arriving, its a shock that happens over and over.
---Meredith
>> There are things to read about the list. I'm going to put more linksI'm a co-owner of a couple lists, radical unschooling lists, where people have complained they didn't know it was about "radical" unschooling even though its clearly stated on the front page.
> on the front page at yahoo, though I suspect those who complain
> haven't really looked into the particulars of the list.
Some people learn about lists and forums by jumping in with both feet. While its a way to learn a whole lot really fast for some people it also certainly generates more confusion and hurt feelings than a strategy of reading for a while before posting.
An analogy that helped me, back when I was first getting used to unschooling discussions, was that of culture shock. Going from Chicago to TN, I experienced a good bit of culture shock - the difference between "personal" and "impersonal" for instance, in Chicago its the height of courtesy to be impersonal, while in TN the opposite is more nearly true. Parents expect parenting discussions to be personal the way "y'all come back now, y'hear?" and "bless your heart" are personal, and they get "ideas not people". Its a shock, and because new people keep arriving, its a shock that happens over and over.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-We explored with campfires and used fire permits issued by a local
park to
have public campfires. I let my kids hold the matches and light the
fire.
Even unschooling parents tried to control my kids' lighting of the
fire and
diminish the experience for them. My sil and I organized an unschooling
communal "campfire" in a park and had a stone soup/potluck/marshmallow
roast
because our kids like fire and we wanted to share it safely with other
unschoolers! Other unschoolers wanted to So, another example of
unschooling
parents having rules rather than principles...-=-
Maybe all unschoolers should be required to let their children play
with matches. I'M JOKING.
Sometimes I let guest kids light our fireplace, when they've never
been able to light a real fire before.
I was at an unschooling event with a fire. Kids were setting their
marshmallows on fire and then wagging them around outside the fire pit
instead of keeping a flaming sugar-ball over the fire. NO parents
were advising them to do differently.
I left quietly. My choices were to seem to turn into a fire-safety
bitch, or to be somewhere else. I was uninterested in seeing what
would happen if a flaming marshmallow landed in someone's hair, on a
baby, or just anywhere. I hope after I was gone someone said
something. My kids weren't there; they probably would have said
something. If no one got hurt, that doesn't suggest that it was a
good idea because no one got hurt.
Had each of those children roasted marshmallows before that day, in
quiet surroundings, with the advice of an adult who lived him or her,
with some discussion of what's safe and good, there would have been
many experienced people around that fire. I suspect there were kids
who weren't allowed to have marshmallows OR fire, and they were
experimenting for the first time in a too-crowded area. I suspect the
parents thought their child was the only one without experience and
that unschooling conferences should be all about crazy behavior. They
shouldn't be.
There is yet another difficult concept rarely discussed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
park to
have public campfires. I let my kids hold the matches and light the
fire.
Even unschooling parents tried to control my kids' lighting of the
fire and
diminish the experience for them. My sil and I organized an unschooling
communal "campfire" in a park and had a stone soup/potluck/marshmallow
roast
because our kids like fire and we wanted to share it safely with other
unschoolers! Other unschoolers wanted to So, another example of
unschooling
parents having rules rather than principles...-=-
Maybe all unschoolers should be required to let their children play
with matches. I'M JOKING.
Sometimes I let guest kids light our fireplace, when they've never
been able to light a real fire before.
I was at an unschooling event with a fire. Kids were setting their
marshmallows on fire and then wagging them around outside the fire pit
instead of keeping a flaming sugar-ball over the fire. NO parents
were advising them to do differently.
I left quietly. My choices were to seem to turn into a fire-safety
bitch, or to be somewhere else. I was uninterested in seeing what
would happen if a flaming marshmallow landed in someone's hair, on a
baby, or just anywhere. I hope after I was gone someone said
something. My kids weren't there; they probably would have said
something. If no one got hurt, that doesn't suggest that it was a
good idea because no one got hurt.
Had each of those children roasted marshmallows before that day, in
quiet surroundings, with the advice of an adult who lived him or her,
with some discussion of what's safe and good, there would have been
many experienced people around that fire. I suspect there were kids
who weren't allowed to have marshmallows OR fire, and they were
experimenting for the first time in a too-crowded area. I suspect the
parents thought their child was the only one without experience and
that unschooling conferences should be all about crazy behavior. They
shouldn't be.
There is yet another difficult concept rarely discussed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Also reading up on subjects that are of interest for your own situation on
the web site is very helpful, and many questions can be answered by that,
without even posting.***
That is often true! There have been times when I'd have a question lying
underneath my thoughts. I'd just sit on it for a while and read and read and
read, and then the answers would come, or someone would come along and ask a
question and in the answers, by other people, I'd get the answer that I was
looking for myself, even if the original question wasn't the same as mine!
I like to read though, so I read a lot about unschooling and unschooling related
things all over the internet almost everyday. I think people should do that!
There are so many things out there now that simply weren't before! If you read
lots of things, you'll see the differences in the thinking here, that's more
clear than other places. Many times, I'll be reading a really nice article on
unschooling or something related, and the person uses language like "teach", or
"self discipline" or other similar things, and I'll think, "oh, ok, well, maybe
not as clear about unschooling as they could be." That's not a big deal so much,
BUT it doesn't help people understand unschooling as well as it could, so those
things get picked apart here. I think it's wonderfully refreshing!
I don't think this list is heavily moderated though, it's more that it's
hostesses attend to the needs of their guests, they're very proactive like that!
They make sure that there is toilet paper in the bathroom and that everyone has
something to eat or drink and a comfortable place to sit, and then they
stimulate the conversations!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the web site is very helpful, and many questions can be answered by that,
without even posting.***
That is often true! There have been times when I'd have a question lying
underneath my thoughts. I'd just sit on it for a while and read and read and
read, and then the answers would come, or someone would come along and ask a
question and in the answers, by other people, I'd get the answer that I was
looking for myself, even if the original question wasn't the same as mine!
I like to read though, so I read a lot about unschooling and unschooling related
things all over the internet almost everyday. I think people should do that!
There are so many things out there now that simply weren't before! If you read
lots of things, you'll see the differences in the thinking here, that's more
clear than other places. Many times, I'll be reading a really nice article on
unschooling or something related, and the person uses language like "teach", or
"self discipline" or other similar things, and I'll think, "oh, ok, well, maybe
not as clear about unschooling as they could be." That's not a big deal so much,
BUT it doesn't help people understand unschooling as well as it could, so those
things get picked apart here. I think it's wonderfully refreshing!
I don't think this list is heavily moderated though, it's more that it's
hostesses attend to the needs of their guests, they're very proactive like that!
They make sure that there is toilet paper in the bathroom and that everyone has
something to eat or drink and a comfortable place to sit, and then they
stimulate the conversations!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
None of my kids knows about marshmallow(burning sugar) causing serious burns
from experience. But they have been "reprimanded" by other parents when
trying to warn other kids that lighting marshmallows on fire is not safe, or
any stick on fire should stay in the fire, or dipped in water but not waved
at them. They have left fires when kids or adults were being unsafe. My
kids also know you don't put a pizza box on a roaring fire, because another
mom did and it light up and pieces of lit paper were everywhere! I screamed
"no stop" as started to do it, but she did it anyway. Boy, did she blush
as it predictably made the fire unsafe. See adults who don't learn about
fire feel that as adults they can be safer with something dangerous than
kids by reason of age:-)
Maybe all kids should get to play with fire;-)
Oddly enough one mom who was reprimanding Marty for being a "control freak"
over the marshmallow roasting had the week before doled out birthday cake
with ice cream as though it was a life or death situation. She really had to
maintain control over that dessert, because anything can happen:-)
Marina
�If you want to build a boat, do not instruct the men to saw wood, stitch
the sails, prepare the tools and organize the work, but make them long for
setting sail and travel to distant lands.� � Antoine De Saint-Exup�ry
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
from experience. But they have been "reprimanded" by other parents when
trying to warn other kids that lighting marshmallows on fire is not safe, or
any stick on fire should stay in the fire, or dipped in water but not waved
at them. They have left fires when kids or adults were being unsafe. My
kids also know you don't put a pizza box on a roaring fire, because another
mom did and it light up and pieces of lit paper were everywhere! I screamed
"no stop" as started to do it, but she did it anyway. Boy, did she blush
as it predictably made the fire unsafe. See adults who don't learn about
fire feel that as adults they can be safer with something dangerous than
kids by reason of age:-)
Maybe all kids should get to play with fire;-)
Oddly enough one mom who was reprimanding Marty for being a "control freak"
over the marshmallow roasting had the week before doled out birthday cake
with ice cream as though it was a life or death situation. She really had to
maintain control over that dessert, because anything can happen:-)
Marina
>--
�If you want to build a boat, do not instruct the men to saw wood, stitch
the sails, prepare the tools and organize the work, but make them long for
setting sail and travel to distant lands.� � Antoine De Saint-Exup�ry
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***She might have just wanted to open the banana and not eat it, she has just
learned to do that herself and is very excited about it.***
Right! My kids are older, 8 and 16, and when they figured out how to open a
banana like a monkey, they opened them all up because it was fun to do! What
they didn't eat, I put in the freezer for making smoothies later. The curious
exploration of the world, by my kids, has led to all kinds of creative thinking
and problem solving for me too, which keeps my own old brain from being stuck!
I love that about unschooling! I know plenty of parents that would never have
allowed their children to open up all the bananas because it would have been
wasteful! What really would have been wasted, was the opportunity to explore
and learn! When others have said, especially Sandra, that learning is more
important, or that learning comes first, this is exactly how I have come to
understand it. That "YES" we can open up all the bananas and learn how monkeys
do it, and that none of them will go to waste!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
learned to do that herself and is very excited about it.***
Right! My kids are older, 8 and 16, and when they figured out how to open a
banana like a monkey, they opened them all up because it was fun to do! What
they didn't eat, I put in the freezer for making smoothies later. The curious
exploration of the world, by my kids, has led to all kinds of creative thinking
and problem solving for me too, which keeps my own old brain from being stuck!
I love that about unschooling! I know plenty of parents that would never have
allowed their children to open up all the bananas because it would have been
wasteful! What really would have been wasted, was the opportunity to explore
and learn! When others have said, especially Sandra, that learning is more
important, or that learning comes first, this is exactly how I have come to
understand it. That "YES" we can open up all the bananas and learn how monkeys
do it, and that none of them will go to waste!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
> What they didn't eat, I put in the freezer for making smoothiesBananas can actually be stored in the refrigerator. The skins
> later.
sometimes get dark but the fruit inside stays fine. (Though not sure
about peeled bananas.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I added the story of Jenny letting her kids peel bananas to my "yes"
page. One of them.
And on that page, near the bottom, is a story about Kirby, and about
my friend Leif (Bill Hammond) who died last week. If I had remembered
it was on the site, I could've just linked it that day.
http://sandradodd.com/yes.html
That's a good page.
Sandra
page. One of them.
And on that page, near the bottom, is a story about Kirby, and about
my friend Leif (Bill Hammond) who died last week. If I had remembered
it was on the site, I could've just linked it that day.
http://sandradodd.com/yes.html
That's a good page.
Sandra
Robin Marcoccia
This reminds me of the Chiquita banana song my grandmother used to
sing while cooking ( I never saw the actual commercial until years
later).
It influenced me enough to never put them in the refrigerator.
Thanks for letting me know they end fine after all : ). I think they
ended up rewording the song in the nineties but don't know if it says
anything about the fridge.
" Im a Chiquita Banana and I'm here to say,
Bananas have to ripen in a certain way.
When they are specked with brown and have a golden hue,
Bananas taste the best and are the best for you.
You can eat them in a pie -ie,
Any way you want to eat them - It's impossible to beat them -
But, bananas like the climate of the very, very tropical equator -
So you should never put bananas in the refrigerator."
Robin
sing while cooking ( I never saw the actual commercial until years
later).
It influenced me enough to never put them in the refrigerator.
Thanks for letting me know they end fine after all : ). I think they
ended up rewording the song in the nineties but don't know if it says
anything about the fridge.
" Im a Chiquita Banana and I'm here to say,
Bananas have to ripen in a certain way.
When they are specked with brown and have a golden hue,
Bananas taste the best and are the best for you.
You can eat them in a pie -ie,
Any way you want to eat them - It's impossible to beat them -
But, bananas like the climate of the very, very tropical equator -
So you should never put bananas in the refrigerator."
Robin
On Jul 20, 2010, at 4:27 PM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
>
> > What they didn't eat, I put in the freezer for making smoothies
> > later.
>
> Bananas can actually be stored in the refrigerator. The skins
> sometimes get dark but the fruit inside stays fine. (Though not sure
> about peeled bananas.)
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
On Jul 20, 2010, at 2:34 PM, Robin Marcoccia wrote:
Here's an extended version, shown only in movie theaters (produced by
Disney):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhif_hPP56A
This one would be considered politically incorrect, but has a recipe
for "Banana Scallops":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icZ_gzXR-ig
1990's updated version, in English (with Dutch subtitles, I think):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=361DwXNvxKg&feature=related
This one is from Sweden:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoaZutjq36U&NR=1
This one is not an ad, but a 1940's song derived from the commercial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A834CwzNHI&NR=1
Carmen Miranda (the Brazilian singer and actress who popularized the
"fruit hat") in another headress singing Mamae Eu Quero (translated to
"I Want My Mama"):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjpzP5CsM-A&feature=related
And Tom & Jerry's version <g>:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFxYA3MDHPI&feature=related
I *love* YouTube.
Robin B.
> This reminds me of the Chiquita banana song my grandmother used toConnections, connections!
> sing while cooking ( I never saw the actual commercial until years
> later).
Here's an extended version, shown only in movie theaters (produced by
Disney):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhif_hPP56A
This one would be considered politically incorrect, but has a recipe
for "Banana Scallops":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icZ_gzXR-ig
1990's updated version, in English (with Dutch subtitles, I think):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=361DwXNvxKg&feature=related
This one is from Sweden:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoaZutjq36U&NR=1
This one is not an ad, but a 1940's song derived from the commercial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A834CwzNHI&NR=1
Carmen Miranda (the Brazilian singer and actress who popularized the
"fruit hat") in another headress singing Mamae Eu Quero (translated to
"I Want My Mama"):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjpzP5CsM-A&feature=related
And Tom & Jerry's version <g>:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFxYA3MDHPI&feature=related
I *love* YouTube.
Robin B.
earthstarschool
Yes, Sandra, the letter is arriving to new members. I appreciate the list moderation, because I too have found on other unschooling (let's face it, any group) groups the posts can quickly veer off into a downward spiral. I think some people may be offended by any direct moderation.
Thanks,
Jenny Miller
Thanks,
Jenny Miller
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Marina DeLuca-Howard <delucahoward@...> wrote:
On my daughter's third birthday, she asked could she light the candles on her birthday cake (Thomas the Tank Engine!). Yes, of course, my wife handed over the box of matches she'd had in her hand and our daughter took out a match, closed the box, lit the match and lit the three candles one by one as if it was something she did every day. I do remember the other five or six children there had their eyes popping out of their heads that my wife and I had allowed Bronwyn to do that. And how proud Bronnie was - not "Ha! I'm allowed to do this and you wouldn't be" but "I've learned a skill". I thought that was how it should be.
Bob
>When my daughter was two, she found a box of matches I'd left on a table in the front room instead of returning it to a drawer in the kitchen as I usually did. She'd tipped the matches out onto the front room carpet and was trying to light one without success. So I suggested we take the box and matches into the garden where it was sunny and I'd show her how to do it. Sitting together on the lawn, I showed her how I lit a match - look, I hold the box tight in one hand and I hold the match like this and so on. Then I handed my daughter the matchbox and watched her practice lighting matches until they were all used up. Then we got on with our day.
> I have met
> lots of kids who like to play with fire. Many parents hope that the
> curiousity can be squelched or ignorned and the matches hidden or just never
> in their house. I had parents take matches from my kids, quite roughly. I
> have had to step in. In some cases because their rule is kids can't have
> matches and they don't like my kids holding the matches. My kids understand
> fire safety, but many adults don't.
>
>
On my daughter's third birthday, she asked could she light the candles on her birthday cake (Thomas the Tank Engine!). Yes, of course, my wife handed over the box of matches she'd had in her hand and our daughter took out a match, closed the box, lit the match and lit the three candles one by one as if it was something she did every day. I do remember the other five or six children there had their eyes popping out of their heads that my wife and I had allowed Bronwyn to do that. And how proud Bronnie was - not "Ha! I'm allowed to do this and you wouldn't be" but "I've learned a skill". I thought that was how it should be.
Bob