[email protected]

In a message dated 1/20/2004 8:10:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Opps! So sorry I shouldn't have been so flippant. :-( I'm sure it is
fun.
Vegetarian marshmalows? I thought marshmallows were made of nothing but
sugar. Is it the food coloring or corn starch? Made me curious so I looked.
**************************
Regular marshmallows have gelatin.
Kathryn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/20/2004 10:25:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
> Vegetarian marshmalows? I thought marshmallows were made of nothing but
>sugar. Is it the food coloring or corn starch? Made me curious so I looked.

gelatin - made from some part of an animal - cartilage?
******************
Oh, trust me...you SO don't want to know how they make gelatin. But there are
bones involved.

Kathryn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/20/2004 10:41:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Vegetarian marshmalows? I thought marshmallows were made of nothing
but
>sugar. Is it the food coloring or corn starch? Made me curious so I
looked.

gelatin - made from some part of an animal - cartilage?"

I think it's hooves and horns...or maybe just hooves.
Also, if a person was vegan the sugar wouldn't be acceptable. The bleaching
process uses animal bones...that's why vegans use raw sugar or some other
sweetener (other than honey of course)
****************************
The ones we got, actually, are vegan, and use Non-bone-char processed sugar,
as well as real vanilla. They're yummy, actually, but they have a different
shape and texture than regular marshmallows.

If you're interested, go here:
http://www.pangeaveg.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Pangea&Product_Code=850&Category_Code=othe
rsweets

Kathryn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Roberts

Hi!

Well, I don't recall signing up for this list, but I'm getting messages and since I see some familiar "faces" I think I'll stick around! LOL

I'm Elizabeth. I'm a 28 y/o wife and mother. My husband Paul and I have four children. Sarah is 7; Logan, 3; Megan, 2 and Gracie is 5 months old. Paul is in the Coast Guard and we're currently hanging out on Cape Cod.

MamaBeth
Http://everydaylives.blogspot.com







---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Louise Robbins

Hi, new person here!!
I can't claim to have read all of J,Holt's books - yet as I am still
waiting for them to arrive from the library!! I have read his "how
they learn" and "why they fail" but long ago during my teaching
degree!
Yep I'm a teacher - but don't shoot me yet, I'm a teacher that
believes our education system is killing our childrens natural
ability not only to learn but to WANT to learn, but hey we all have
to eat!!! I only do a little supply but it's enough to keep
reminding me I am doing the right thing by Guy my 6 year old.
I am new to unschooling and would love to hear how any of you
started out. I do find it difficult not to think about what
he "should be learning at this stage", but I am trying and working
hard to relax!!!
Looking forward to meeting you all and posting!

Blessings to you all and your families :)
Louise

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/26/04 11:33:48 PM, loueliandguy@... writes:

<< I do find it difficult not to think about what

he "should be learning at this stage", but I am trying and working

hard to relax!!! >>

What helped me get over the assembly-line model was looking at it as the
assembly line model it is.

If you were building a car by hand from scratch at home, doing the machining
and body and carving wooden parts and upholstering your own seats, it wouldn't
matter too much when you put the mirrors on. But if you were the right-hand
mirror attachment guy at an automotive assembly line, you'd put the mirror on
when the car came by, without thought to anything else about the car.

And in school's model, that factory assembly line would go on for years and
every new section would check that mirror again, or maybe take it off and put a
different one on, and by the time the vehicle came to the end of the line the
engineering would be outdated, the parts not nearly as nice as could have
been if it hadn't taken so long, and some percentage of those would be kinda
lemony or imperfect, but as long as MOST outlived their warranties, that's
success.

And people aren't like cars anyway. There are no mirrors to attach. They
grow their own mirrors, or they lose the will to do so. People figure out
their own coping tools, or they give up in frustration. Unschooling involves
(among other things) an attempt to keep the frustration down and the free will up.
If a child is growing as safely and securely as he can, his natural
abilities can get him through to adulthood. If he has interesting, benevolent
surroundings, he'll thrive.

Instead of thinking of a series of twelve or thirteen little stages, I came
to think of it as one big stage, and figured if my kids knew the basics by the
time they were 18, that would be fine with me.

After more experience and looking around at all the others I could see, find
or hear about, I've relaxed that 18 thing too. For one thing, learning has
come easier to my kids than I thought it would. For another, 18 is no magic
number. Lots of adults report that their spelling improved, or they finally
"got" math, or they came to care about world geography, or whatever, in their 20's
or 30's. And lots of them went to school their whole lives.

I was told that intro, presentation, review and reinforcement were the best
plan to reinforce learning. Interestingly today, I'm going to play a game with
five or six (forgot to ask) classrooms of midschoolers. The periods are
short here. I'm worried about not getting to a summary or explanation before they
leave. If the game is too interesting, I might not get to tell them how it
worked, which is the whole point, or leave them with the curiosities to keep
them thinking about it later.

Yet in my kids' lives, the whole series of intro, presentation, review and
reinforcement are cut down to awareness and reinforcement. The learn of a
thing (word, object, creature, concept, event, place, whatever) and a minute or a
year or two later they see it mentioned again, and at some point they might or
might not ask or investigate (research). I used to be happier if that all
happened in a short span of time. Now I'm confident it will eventually happen.

I still make connections between things I learned a long time ago and things
I come across now. Just last week I started figured out one of the mysteries
of my grammatical life. On exercises and in English workbooks in third and
fourth and a few later grades, they made sure we knew that "let us" (let's) do
this was not "leave us" do this. Who the heck would say "leave us go"? I'd
never heard it misused. It was apparently some midwestern or eastern U.S.
thing. Not our problem.

Decades of interset in English language history and medieval history
followed. No clues connected in my head.

Last week, because of some early-19th century dialog in Sense and
Sensibility, I made the connection. I still don't know where the early 20th century
holdovers were or why (but if anyone here knows I'm interested), but here's my
little news:

"Let's" means "let us."
In the past 800 years or so, English moved slowly through and out of some
serious feudal and class stuff. Even Victorian etiquette is always very clear
on the duties and privilege of host and hostess. Even now, people will say
"May I be excused?" when they want to leave a dinner table, and the person who
excuses you is the ranking female, probably (hostess) or male (depending).

And the formal way to ask (historically) is "May I have your leave to
[whatever: depart or go, usually]?"

Will you give me leave to go?
May I have leave to visit? (military "leave" kicks in)

Having leave means someone lets you do something.

"Let me go" (used more now when someone is physically holding someone) is an
exact parallel of the "give me leave to go" of a social holding.

Leave and let ARE related.

I'm fifty. I was happy to figure it out. I didn't really try to, though. I
figured it would come by in the info stream or not.

Sandra

Elizabeth Roberts

Another one, in the military, if an officer and an enlisted were walking, and the enlisted comes up behind the officer and needs to pass, they are supposed to say "By your leave?" and get "permission" to pass by. There are a couple other similar situations where that question is supposed to be asked. Technically. Most places aren't that formal, but it's among the things taught in boot camp.

MamaBeth

SandraDodd@... wrote:

In a message dated 1/26/04 11:33:48 PM, loueliandguy@... writes:

<< I do find it difficult not to think about what

he "should be learning at this stage", but I am trying and working

hard to relax!!! >>

What helped me get over the assembly-line model was looking at it as the
assembly line model it is.

If you were building a car by hand from scratch at home, doing the machining
and body and carving wooden parts and upholstering your own seats, it wouldn't
matter too much when you put the mirrors on. But if you were the right-hand
mirror attachment guy at an automotive assembly line, you'd put the mirror on
when the car came by, without thought to anything else about the car.

And in school's model, that factory assembly line would go on for years and
every new section would check that mirror again, or maybe take it off and put a
different one on, and by the time the vehicle came to the end of the line the
engineering would be outdated, the parts not nearly as nice as could have
been if it hadn't taken so long, and some percentage of those would be kinda
lemony or imperfect, but as long as MOST outlived their warranties, that's
success.

And people aren't like cars anyway. There are no mirrors to attach. They
grow their own mirrors, or they lose the will to do so. People figure out
their own coping tools, or they give up in frustration. Unschooling involves
(among other things) an attempt to keep the frustration down and the free will up.
If a child is growing as safely and securely as he can, his natural
abilities can get him through to adulthood. If he has interesting, benevolent
surroundings, he'll thrive.

Instead of thinking of a series of twelve or thirteen little stages, I came
to think of it as one big stage, and figured if my kids knew the basics by the
time they were 18, that would be fine with me.

After more experience and looking around at all the others I could see, find
or hear about, I've relaxed that 18 thing too. For one thing, learning has
come easier to my kids than I thought it would. For another, 18 is no magic
number. Lots of adults report that their spelling improved, or they finally
"got" math, or they came to care about world geography, or whatever, in their 20's
or 30's. And lots of them went to school their whole lives.

I was told that intro, presentation, review and reinforcement were the best
plan to reinforce learning. Interestingly today, I'm going to play a game with
five or six (forgot to ask) classrooms of midschoolers. The periods are
short here. I'm worried about not getting to a summary or explanation before they
leave. If the game is too interesting, I might not get to tell them how it
worked, which is the whole point, or leave them with the curiosities to keep
them thinking about it later.

Yet in my kids' lives, the whole series of intro, presentation, review and
reinforcement are cut down to awareness and reinforcement. The learn of a
thing (word, object, creature, concept, event, place, whatever) and a minute or a
year or two later they see it mentioned again, and at some point they might or
might not ask or investigate (research). I used to be happier if that all
happened in a short span of time. Now I'm confident it will eventually happen.

I still make connections between things I learned a long time ago and things
I come across now. Just last week I started figured out one of the mysteries
of my grammatical life. On exercises and in English workbooks in third and
fourth and a few later grades, they made sure we knew that "let us" (let's) do
this was not "leave us" do this. Who the heck would say "leave us go"? I'd
never heard it misused. It was apparently some midwestern or eastern U.S.
thing. Not our problem.

Decades of interset in English language history and medieval history
followed. No clues connected in my head.

Last week, because of some early-19th century dialog in Sense and
Sensibility, I made the connection. I still don't know where the early 20th century
holdovers were or why (but if anyone here knows I'm interested), but here's my
little news:

"Let's" means "let us."
In the past 800 years or so, English moved slowly through and out of some
serious feudal and class stuff. Even Victorian etiquette is always very clear
on the duties and privilege of host and hostess. Even now, people will say
"May I be excused?" when they want to leave a dinner table, and the person who
excuses you is the ranking female, probably (hostess) or male (depending).

And the formal way to ask (historically) is "May I have your leave to
[whatever: depart or go, usually]?"

Will you give me leave to go?
May I have leave to visit? (military "leave" kicks in)

Having leave means someone lets you do something.

"Let me go" (used more now when someone is physically holding someone) is an
exact parallel of the "give me leave to go" of a social holding.

Leave and let ARE related.

I'm fifty. I was happy to figure it out. I didn't really try to, though. I
figured it would come by in the info stream or not.

Sandra


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wife2Vegman

I have been thoughtfully reading the discussion about
canvases and cleaning (I think that was on this list,
wasn't it?), and thought I would take it to heart
today.

I went into my 12yos room and started cleaning and
organizing his work space, where he paints his LOTR
figures for his gaming.

I put all the figures into shoe boxes, or old gundam
boxes, put the paints all in an empty baby wipes box,
the brushes in a cup, cleared off the clutter without
throwing anything away that wasn't obviously trash,
etc.

I laid a big piece of red posterboard down on the desk
and duct-taped it down, and arranged his paints and
brushes and put a shoe box lid down to put the painted
figures to dry.

He came in and was so excited. He said, "Oh momma,
thank you! Now I just want to PAINT!" And pulled up
his chair, turned on one of his G.A. Henty audiobooks,
and settled in for the afternoon.

What a great feeling!





=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman

What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

Barbara Chase

>I do find it difficult not to think about what he "should be learning at
>this stage", but I am trying and working hard to relax!!!


Hi Louise,

I'm fairly new to the list as well, with a 5yo daughter. What I'm really
getting right now is that "now" is really all we've got... it's amazing how
much I find myself thinking about what "should" be with respect to many
aspects of life, and this just distracts me from what is now. And when I
am focused and amazed by what my daughter is doing right now we all have
fun.

Welcome to the list.
--bc--

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

one4oneness

I'm intrigued. Are you still teaching outside of the home? My
parents work in the school district and they subject my ds to
impromptu quizzes to see if he's learning anything. As well as
question exactly what he did with his day. Have you been faced with
that also? Am I wrong to be irritated?

Taunya


--- In [email protected], "Louise Robbins"
<loueliandguy@n...> wrote:
> Hi, new person here!!
> I can't claim to have read all of J,Holt's books - yet as I am
still
> waiting for them to arrive from the library!! I have read his "how
> they learn" and "why they fail" but long ago during my teaching
> degree!
> Yep I'm a teacher - but don't shoot me yet, I'm a teacher that
> believes our education system is killing our childrens natural
> ability not only to learn but to WANT to learn, but hey we all
have
> to eat!!! I only do a little supply but it's enough to keep
> reminding me I am doing the right thing by Guy my 6 year old.
> I am new to unschooling and would love to hear how any of you
> started out. I do find it difficult not to think about what
> he "should be learning at this stage", but I am trying and working
> hard to relax!!!
> Looking forward to meeting you all and posting!
>
> Blessings to you all and your families :)
> Louise

mami_51703

Hello, my name is Monica and I am the mother to Adrian,10 (who attends school) Ariz, 4 (who is starting home learning) and Alex,2 just enjoying being a little boy lol!.

I started structured learning with Ariz when she turned 3 with workbooks and daily reading lessons. She liked the worksheets untill I started leaving her alone to finish the material I know she arleady knew and she bacame upset. It took me a while to realize that it was the one-on-one attention from me that she enjoyed not the actual work (I must be slow).

Then I tried a waldorf style preschool curriculum and it mainly focused on the rythem of the day and not much else. We still enjoy an unconsistent morning circle time with song and movement but other then that not much kept there attention (who knows maybe I was doing it wrong) but none of us were happy with it.

So I stopped, I stopped trying, telling, and leading and just listened and watched. And boom.....Ariz likes reading and writing. Every morning she wakes up and grabs her notebook and starts writting she has started writing words now that she is bored with mastering her and our names. She loves grabbing 'real' books and skimming throught them and reading the words she knows, sounding out some and asking me for help when she wants it. Right now she is hauling around "The Poetry of Zen". She also tries to read any written letter she sees when we are out and about.

So I've heard that this is somewhat the consept of 'unschooling', so here I am, trying to expand my knowlage on the subject and figure out how to interest Ariz in other things -though I am perfectly fine with her being obsessed with reading and writing right now.

Alex is into dramatic play with his toys and drawing shapes. I know there is a lot to learn in his 'simple' play so I am just letting him enjoy and explore what he is interested in.

sorry that intro was so long, but here I am.
~Monica

jenstarc4

--- In [email protected], "mami_51703" <mami_51703@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello, my name is Monica and I am the mother to Adrian,10 (who attends
school) Ariz, 4 (who is starting home learning) and Alex,2 just enjoying
being a little boy lol!.
>
> I started structured learning with Ariz when she turned 3 with
workbooks and daily reading lessons. She liked the worksheets untill I
started leaving her alone to finish the material I know she arleady knew
and she bacame upset. It took me a while to realize that it was the
one-on-one attention from me that she enjoyed not the actual work (I
must be slow).
>
> Then I tried a waldorf style preschool curriculum and it mainly
focused on the rythem of the day and not much else. We still enjoy an
unconsistent morning circle time with song and movement but other then
that not much kept there attention (who knows maybe I was doing it
wrong) but none of us were happy with it.
>
> So I stopped, I stopped trying, telling, and leading and just listened
and watched. And boom.....Ariz likes reading and writing. Every morning
she wakes up and grabs her notebook and starts writting she has started
writing words now that she is bored with mastering her and our names.
She loves grabbing 'real' books and skimming throught them and reading
the words she knows, sounding out some and asking me for help when she
wants it. Right now she is hauling around "The Poetry of Zen". She also
tries to read any written letter she sees when we are out and about.
>
> So I've heard that this is somewhat the consept of 'unschooling', so
here I am, trying to expand my knowlage on the subject and figure out
how to interest Ariz in other things -though I am perfectly fine with
her being obsessed with reading and writing right now.
>
> Alex is into dramatic play with his toys and drawing shapes. I know
there is a lot to learn in his 'simple' play so I am just letting him
enjoy and explore what he is interested in.
>
> sorry that intro was so long, but here I am.
> ~Monica
>

collagecontessa

I wanted to pop in and say hello. I homeschool my 2 girls, grades 5th and 12th (this is our 9th year.) We have used various ways to learn, unit studies, textbooks, having the kids pick what they want to learn. The 12th grader is set in her textbook ways and is also attending some college classes this year.

However, the 5th grader hates them, and has only been assigned them so I could help the teen pass her classes. This year I've tried to relax our homeschooling. We moved to Sonlight which is mostly just reading all day.

I have been very curious about unschooling, although I have no clue how I, a diehard book learner (I love taking notes, using textbooks) is supposed to let go and let the child learn unstructured. Especially with regards to math.

This is why I joined this group. To learn from you all, to soak in all the ideas, knowledge you provide on unschooling. I've read several of John Holt's books and have ordered them again from the library to reread.

Any help on how to gradually step into unschooling would be appreciated.

Kris
http://www.thosecrazyhomeschoolers.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-However, the 5th grader hates them, and has only been assigned them
so I could help the teen pass her classes. -=-

If you HAVE "a 5th grader" you need to undo that. Maybe you have an
eleven year old.

You assign a girl "book work" so that you can help another child do
bookwork? This list can't help you unless you're willing to turn
away from that, and let it go. Let it dissipate into the air. It is
all of school and none of life.

-=-I have no clue how I, a diehard book learner (I love taking notes,
using textbooks) is supposed to let go and let the child learn
unstructured.=-

Learn with her. You learn to learn without "textbooks."

http://sandradodd.com/bookandsax
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

-=-Any help on how to gradually step into unschooling would be
appreciated. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/stages
http://sandradodd.com/strewing

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 11, 2009, at 10:35 AM, collagecontessa wrote:

> Especially with regards to math.

The learning of math from textbooks is backwards and wrong in so many
ways that it's hard to know where to begin.

What textbooks yield, when they yield something other than a fear or
hatred of math, is equivalent to a bunch of memorized vocabulary
words with no understanding of how to use them to actually
communicate anything.

What unschooled kids learn is how to communicate. The learn how
numbers work. They learn how to make numbers give them the answers
they want. They bounce around the various tools of math, pick up bits
and pieces here and there to fill in gaps as they need them. Slowly a
larger parts of the picture emerge from the bits they get to work. It
happens very much the way kids learn to speak, which looks nothing
like Spanish class, and yet works way way better!

If you go here:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

and scroll down the left side you'll find several pages on math.

Another helpful page might be:

Why You Can't Let Go
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk

about why school learning seems to make sense.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

>>>However, the 5th grader hates them, and has only been assigned them so I could help the teen pass her classes. This year I've tried to relax our homeschooling. We moved to Sonlight which is mostly just reading all day.>>>
If she's not in school, she not in a grade. Grades are for categorizing kids into same age groups. If she's at home with her sister, there isn't a need to do that.
Does your younger daughter like reading all day? If not, what does she like to do? That is where to start. Move in the direction of what she does like. If she likes reading, but not the sonlight stuff, let her read whatever it is she does like. When she's done reading, let her naturally move onto something else she likes to do.

>>>I have been very curious about unschooling, although I have no clue how I, a diehard book learner (I love taking notes, using textbooks) is supposed to let go and let the child learn unstructured. Especially with regards to math.>>>
If you really like reading, and you are wondering about math, read this. It's long and very compelling. It's Lockhart's Lament. For me, it was one of the most inspiring articles pertaining to math. It's not about unschooling really, more about why the way in which math is taught, maybe isn't so great.
Math is all around us, the ideas, the concepts, numbers, reasoning, strategy, all of it. Once you start to see how math is really used in daily life, you might just relax a bit. I'm surprised by the math that is taught in schools. It's very overwhelming, and stuff that I've never had a use for in my life. While I understand that there are uses for such mathematics, not everyone pursues those interests in which it's needed.>>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

>>>If you really like reading, and you are wondering about math, read this. It's long and very compelling. It's Lockhart's Lament.>>>

The link didn't go through... here it is... http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

collagecontessa

Sandra,

Thanks for the links to specific areas I'm trying to work on. I will read them diligently.

Yes, I have a wonderful 10 year old. And yes, I know the textbooks do not work. They certainly don't retain the information for any length of time. This week we had a lovely time of just hanging out. We read most of the time, playing card and boardgames (Math wars being the fav, war while shouting out how the numbers multiply by each other.)

The whole reason I joined this list was to learn more about unschooling and how we can incorporate that into our lives. I'm not at that step yet fully, but am learning.

Thanks so much.
Kris
http://www.thosecrazyhomeschoolers.blogspot.com

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-However, the 5th grader hates them, and has only been assigned them
> so I could help the teen pass her classes. -=-
>
> If you HAVE "a 5th grader" you need to undo that. Maybe you have an
> eleven year old.
>
> You assign a girl "book work" so that you can help another child do
> bookwork? This list can't help you unless you're willing to turn
> away from that, and let it go. Let it dissipate into the air. It is
> all of school and none of life.
>
> -=-I have no clue how I, a diehard book learner (I love taking notes,
> using textbooks) is supposed to let go and let the child learn
> unstructured.=-
>
> Learn with her. You learn to learn without "textbooks."
>
> http://sandradodd.com/bookandsax
> http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
>
> -=-Any help on how to gradually step into unschooling would be
> appreciated. -=-
> http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
> http://sandradodd.com/stages
> http://sandradodd.com/strewing
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Marina DeLuca-Howard

Math to my kids is about money, cooking, time, distance, and building lego
worlds(engineering).

Abstract numbers on a page? Let children should learn engineering, because
it is a useful and real life but abstract concepts like one plus one equals
two is a concept best left to adults who deal in the abstract.

Marina


--
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]