baffled
kazitetalibuse
I still struggle with some of the concepts of unschoolings. I thought
I would ask this question here.
I am starting to come around to the idea that the care of the house is
my job, not my kids'. They can help if they want, but that that's
their choice.
At the same time, I have realized that housework stresses me out,
takes up too much of my time, and (surprise) I do not like it (Feeling
guilty for "making" my kids do their chores for so long and making
them feel bad and ashamed for "not liking it."). I would much rather
be available to my daughters (4 and 9) or work on my school work
(attending college) or writing a newsletter for my husband's
business, exercising, or taking walks...
So, it has occured to me that we could hire someone to clean our house
once a week. My husband agrees. There is only one problem. To be able
to pay for this, we would have to stop our weekly restaurant outings.
It's OK with me and my husband. We are very interested in healthy
nutrition and we are both negatively affected by sugar, flour,
additives etc. It would be easire for us to adhere to our chosen diet
without the restaurant outings.
Well, I am anticipating that the girls will not like it. How do I make
this change without "making" them go along?
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Renata
I would ask this question here.
I am starting to come around to the idea that the care of the house is
my job, not my kids'. They can help if they want, but that that's
their choice.
At the same time, I have realized that housework stresses me out,
takes up too much of my time, and (surprise) I do not like it (Feeling
guilty for "making" my kids do their chores for so long and making
them feel bad and ashamed for "not liking it."). I would much rather
be available to my daughters (4 and 9) or work on my school work
(attending college) or writing a newsletter for my husband's
business, exercising, or taking walks...
So, it has occured to me that we could hire someone to clean our house
once a week. My husband agrees. There is only one problem. To be able
to pay for this, we would have to stop our weekly restaurant outings.
It's OK with me and my husband. We are very interested in healthy
nutrition and we are both negatively affected by sugar, flour,
additives etc. It would be easire for us to adhere to our chosen diet
without the restaurant outings.
Well, I am anticipating that the girls will not like it. How do I make
this change without "making" them go along?
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Renata
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 23, 2006, at 10:56 AM, kazitetalibuse wrote:
First, the chores thing isn't "a concept of unschooling." It's more
a parallel or extension.
http://sandradodd.com/chore/option
There's something good there by Robyn Coburn.
Joyce explains the chores business very well here:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
And of this:
-=-There is only one problem. To be able
to pay for this, we would have to stop our weekly restaurant outings.-=-
There are more problems than one, and one is the use of "have to." <g>
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Sandra
> I still struggle with some of the concepts of unschoolings. I thoughtI can give you some three links that will help, I think.
> I would ask this question here.
>
> I am starting to come around to the idea that the care of the house is
> my job, not my kids'. They can help if they want, but that that's
> their choice.
First, the chores thing isn't "a concept of unschooling." It's more
a parallel or extension.
http://sandradodd.com/chore/option
There's something good there by Robyn Coburn.
Joyce explains the chores business very well here:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
And of this:
-=-There is only one problem. To be able
to pay for this, we would have to stop our weekly restaurant outings.-=-
There are more problems than one, and one is the use of "have to." <g>
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Sandra
Deb
Hmm you've listed only two choices given here: stressing out about
housework OR giving up something to get housekeeping help. There are
lots more options than this.
-For instance, what about having the housekeeping help only come in
once or twice a month to handle the 'big stuff' like the bathrooms
and vacuuming and such while your family (you and DH, kids too)
manages the day to day dishes and laundry and taking the trash out
once a week (or twice depending on where you live).
-Can you scale down the dinners out - instead of Outback, maybe
Sonic, find buffet places or early bird dinner places, use credit
card 'points' for restaurant coupons, etc? Or maybe have
one 'upscale' dinner out per month and go out for pizza, burgers,
sandwiches/subs the other weeks.
-Can you find other places to draw funds from? - maybe have fewer
meals with meat (if you eat meat to start with) since meats can be a
big chunk of $ in the grocery bill.
-Instead of a 'full professional' look around for high school or
college students who would do the work either inexpensively or as
part of a barter deal (they cleanthe bathroom and vacuum the living
room while they have a load of laundry in your washer)
-look at your standards (individually and collectively) for the
house and see if there are places that can get scaled back - for
instance, does the carpet need to be vacuumed daily? can you do the
dusting twice a month instead of every other day? And so on.
Everyone's perspective on what is necessary varies - if you've folks
with allergies, then dusting and vacuuming are important and maybe
it would be worthwhile to lose the carpet and get wood floors that
can be cleaned faster with just a broom (we've just transitioned
from carpet to hardwood and it's so much easier to manage one
lightweight broom and start at the top of the house and sweep all
the way to the bottom and be done than it was to haul the vacuum
around, plug, unplug, empty, etc.)
Those are just a few items off the top of my head and I'm sure you
guys could probably brainstorm more as well - once you've got a nice
big list, then make a decision. It's not an either/or 'have to' -
you've got a whole realm of options available.
--Deb
housework OR giving up something to get housekeeping help. There are
lots more options than this.
-For instance, what about having the housekeeping help only come in
once or twice a month to handle the 'big stuff' like the bathrooms
and vacuuming and such while your family (you and DH, kids too)
manages the day to day dishes and laundry and taking the trash out
once a week (or twice depending on where you live).
-Can you scale down the dinners out - instead of Outback, maybe
Sonic, find buffet places or early bird dinner places, use credit
card 'points' for restaurant coupons, etc? Or maybe have
one 'upscale' dinner out per month and go out for pizza, burgers,
sandwiches/subs the other weeks.
-Can you find other places to draw funds from? - maybe have fewer
meals with meat (if you eat meat to start with) since meats can be a
big chunk of $ in the grocery bill.
-Instead of a 'full professional' look around for high school or
college students who would do the work either inexpensively or as
part of a barter deal (they cleanthe bathroom and vacuum the living
room while they have a load of laundry in your washer)
-look at your standards (individually and collectively) for the
house and see if there are places that can get scaled back - for
instance, does the carpet need to be vacuumed daily? can you do the
dusting twice a month instead of every other day? And so on.
Everyone's perspective on what is necessary varies - if you've folks
with allergies, then dusting and vacuuming are important and maybe
it would be worthwhile to lose the carpet and get wood floors that
can be cleaned faster with just a broom (we've just transitioned
from carpet to hardwood and it's so much easier to manage one
lightweight broom and start at the top of the house and sweep all
the way to the bottom and be done than it was to haul the vacuum
around, plug, unplug, empty, etc.)
Those are just a few items off the top of my head and I'm sure you
guys could probably brainstorm more as well - once you've got a nice
big list, then make a decision. It's not an either/or 'have to' -
you've got a whole realm of options available.
--Deb
Pamela Sorooshian
On Feb 23, 2006, at 9:56 AM, kazitetalibuse wrote:
You can talk to them about the possibility - in fact, explain what
you want to do (hire a housecleaner) and ask them for ideas. They
might surprise you and come up with the same one you came up with, or
they might come up with another idea that will work. I wouldn't even
tell them that you already think you "have to" eliminate your
restaurant time. I'd let them come up with ideas, you add to their
list of ideas and include that one in the mix. I'm sure, really sure,
there are other possibilities that you've considered and eliminated
already, in your own mind. So put those other possibilities on the
table, too. Make the decision together since it is something they
like to do and would miss.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
GET A LIFE...
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/getunschool>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So, it has occured to me that we could hire someone to clean our houseYou can't "make" the change without "making" them go along.
> once a week. My husband agrees. There is only one problem. To be able
> to pay for this, we would have to stop our weekly restaurant outings.
You can talk to them about the possibility - in fact, explain what
you want to do (hire a housecleaner) and ask them for ideas. They
might surprise you and come up with the same one you came up with, or
they might come up with another idea that will work. I wouldn't even
tell them that you already think you "have to" eliminate your
restaurant time. I'd let them come up with ideas, you add to their
list of ideas and include that one in the mix. I'm sure, really sure,
there are other possibilities that you've considered and eliminated
already, in your own mind. So put those other possibilities on the
table, too. Make the decision together since it is something they
like to do and would miss.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
GET A LIFE...
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/getunschool>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kazitetalibuse
Make the decision together since it is something they
Renata
> like to do and would miss.Thank you all for the replies. They sure give me much to think about.
>
Renata
S Drag-teine
"I am starting to come around to the idea that the care of the house is
my job, not my kids'."
I don't really think that is the truth. Taking care of the house is everyone
who lives in the houses responsibility - not job. You can be available to
your kids and get things done. Will you get everything done - every day? No.
probably not but then who does?
The first thing you have to do is change your thinking about housework.
Don't look at it as something negative, find a way to make it a positive
thing. I joined a list called FlyLady
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FlyLadyMentors> . If you visit her website
FlyLady.net, you will see what it is all about. She really helped me see
that housework didn't have to be all work and then my son saw me having fun
and helps when he isn't sucked into other things. It is how he learned how
to count, match socks, sort colors, measure soap and time the loads. He
doesn't like to fold and I can't say that it is my favorite either but he
hands it to me and I fold.
Cleaning, we have learned, is always more fun if you have company.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of kazitetalibuse
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] baffled
I still struggle with some of the concepts of unschoolings. I thought
I would ask this question here.
I am starting to come around to the idea that the care of the house is
my job, not my kids'. They can help if they want, but that that's
their choice.
At the same time, I have realized that housework stresses me out,
takes up too much of my time, and (surprise) I do not like it (Feeling
guilty for "making" my kids do their chores for so long and making
them feel bad and ashamed for "not liking it."). I would much rather
be available to my daughters (4 and 9) or work on my school work
(attending college) or writing a newsletter for my husband's
business, exercising, or taking walks...
So, it has occured to me that we could hire someone to clean our house
once a week. My husband agrees. There is only one problem. To be able
to pay for this, we would have to stop our weekly restaurant outings.
It's OK with me and my husband. We are very interested in healthy
nutrition and we are both negatively affected by sugar, flour,
additives etc. It would be easire for us to adhere to our chosen diet
without the restaurant outings.
Well, I am anticipating that the girls will not like it. How do I make
this change without "making" them go along?
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Renata
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <
<http://www.unschooling.info> http://www.unschooling.info>
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ool+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Middle+sc
hool+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+californi
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chool+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Middle+
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ate+school+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Mi
ddle+school+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+ca
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
my job, not my kids'."
I don't really think that is the truth. Taking care of the house is everyone
who lives in the houses responsibility - not job. You can be available to
your kids and get things done. Will you get everything done - every day? No.
probably not but then who does?
The first thing you have to do is change your thinking about housework.
Don't look at it as something negative, find a way to make it a positive
thing. I joined a list called FlyLady
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FlyLadyMentors> . If you visit her website
FlyLady.net, you will see what it is all about. She really helped me see
that housework didn't have to be all work and then my son saw me having fun
and helps when he isn't sucked into other things. It is how he learned how
to count, match socks, sort colors, measure soap and time the loads. He
doesn't like to fold and I can't say that it is my favorite either but he
hands it to me and I fold.
Cleaning, we have learned, is always more fun if you have company.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of kazitetalibuse
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] baffled
I still struggle with some of the concepts of unschoolings. I thought
I would ask this question here.
I am starting to come around to the idea that the care of the house is
my job, not my kids'. They can help if they want, but that that's
their choice.
At the same time, I have realized that housework stresses me out,
takes up too much of my time, and (surprise) I do not like it (Feeling
guilty for "making" my kids do their chores for so long and making
them feel bad and ashamed for "not liking it."). I would much rather
be available to my daughters (4 and 9) or work on my school work
(attending college) or writing a newsletter for my husband's
business, exercising, or taking walks...
So, it has occured to me that we could hire someone to clean our house
once a week. My husband agrees. There is only one problem. To be able
to pay for this, we would have to stop our weekly restaurant outings.
It's OK with me and my husband. We are very interested in healthy
nutrition and we are both negatively affected by sugar, flour,
additives etc. It would be easire for us to adhere to our chosen diet
without the restaurant outings.
Well, I am anticipating that the girls will not like it. How do I make
this change without "making" them go along?
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Renata
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <
<http://www.unschooling.info> http://www.unschooling.info>
SPONSORED LINKS
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Graduate+school+education&w1=Graduate+s
chool+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Middle+
school+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+califor
nia&c=6&s=181&.sig=XeERtAmMH6xOclFlfF3kXw> Graduate school education
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=High+school+education&w1=Graduate+schoo
l+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Middle+scho
ol+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+california&
c=6&s=181&.sig=89oOLkTPWnhxf__b2u72QA> High school education
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Home+school+education&w1=Graduate+schoo
l+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Middle+scho
ol+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+california&
c=6&s=181&.sig=1aW-X2S2ZokW3qzZ8RgBsQ> Home school education
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Middle+school+education&w1=Graduate+sch
ool+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Middle+sc
hool+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+californi
a&c=6&s=181&.sig=ekWG86FHE6rjFjd8jaZHOw> Middle school education
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=New+york+school+education&w1=Graduate+s
chool+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Middle+
school+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+califor
nia&c=6&s=181&.sig=aSJE8BjHS18knvLinwtebQ> New york school education
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=School+education+in+california&w1=Gradu
ate+school+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Mi
ddle+school+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+ca
lifornia&c=6&s=181&.sig=gkGybS6R2TNc7Ffa1FldiA> School education in
california
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 23, 2006, at 1:04 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:
one is paid for.
Housework doesn't have a start or a finish (unless one has contracted
to do the floors and bathrooms, or whatever, as "a job" for pay).
Responsibility cannot ever really be shared by a large group or
family. Someone is in charge.
Responsibility means someone needs to answer to someone else for
whether it gets done. A husband and a wife can share responsibility
the same way they share a mortgage, because marriage is like a
corporation. The two become one in some legal ways. <g>
If the county comes and makes a sanitation claim (like you get a
citation or official warning in writing about something like junk in
your yard, or unsanitary conditions), that is NOT the
"responsibility" of children, but of the homeowner or the lease
holder or renter. The parents are responsible. The children don't
equally own the house, and if someone DOES have a house in the name
of a minor child, someone is the guardian and it's his or her
responsibility to make sure DOUBLY that the house is maintained to
meet safety standards, city statutes, and to some extent to maintain
the value of the property. That legal guardian would be responsible
(literally) to the courts if they aren't doing a good job taking care
of the children and property entrusted to their care.
Responsibility has a real meaning. And minor children don't have
"responsibility" unless the parents have made up some rules and
punishments, and "made the child responsible (answerable)" to the
parent.
Sandra
>"Job" is something with a start and a finish, and usually something
> I don't really think that is the truth. Taking care of the house is
> everyone
> who lives in the houses responsibility - not job.
one is paid for.
Housework doesn't have a start or a finish (unless one has contracted
to do the floors and bathrooms, or whatever, as "a job" for pay).
Responsibility cannot ever really be shared by a large group or
family. Someone is in charge.
Responsibility means someone needs to answer to someone else for
whether it gets done. A husband and a wife can share responsibility
the same way they share a mortgage, because marriage is like a
corporation. The two become one in some legal ways. <g>
If the county comes and makes a sanitation claim (like you get a
citation or official warning in writing about something like junk in
your yard, or unsanitary conditions), that is NOT the
"responsibility" of children, but of the homeowner or the lease
holder or renter. The parents are responsible. The children don't
equally own the house, and if someone DOES have a house in the name
of a minor child, someone is the guardian and it's his or her
responsibility to make sure DOUBLY that the house is maintained to
meet safety standards, city statutes, and to some extent to maintain
the value of the property. That legal guardian would be responsible
(literally) to the courts if they aren't doing a good job taking care
of the children and property entrusted to their care.
Responsibility has a real meaning. And minor children don't have
"responsibility" unless the parents have made up some rules and
punishments, and "made the child responsible (answerable)" to the
parent.
Sandra
Julie
<< The first thing you have to do is change your thinking about housework.
Don't look at it as something negative, find a way to make it a positive
thing. I joined a list called FlyLady
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FlyLadyMentors> . If you visit her website
FlyLady.net, you will see what it is all about. She really helped me see
that housework didn't have to be all work and then my son saw me having fun
and helps when he isn't sucked into other things. It is how he learned how
to count, match socks, sort colors, measure soap and time the loads. He
doesn't like to fold and I can't say that it is my favorite either but he
hands it to me and I fold.>>
I wanted to second the FlyLady recommendation - www.flylady.net . Being on
the list and reading the steady stream of emails helped me to realize that
housework wasn't the huge job I had made it out to be. It also helped me to
see how deeply housework and judgments of self were intertwined, and it
prompted me to get to work on separating that out and realizing what is
truly important.
Yes, the language is beyond hokey sometimes, but underneath it all it's very
helpful. The condition of my house just isn't such a big deal anymore
because I know how to deal with it calmly, efficiently and without judgment.
Julie B
Don't look at it as something negative, find a way to make it a positive
thing. I joined a list called FlyLady
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FlyLadyMentors> . If you visit her website
FlyLady.net, you will see what it is all about. She really helped me see
that housework didn't have to be all work and then my son saw me having fun
and helps when he isn't sucked into other things. It is how he learned how
to count, match socks, sort colors, measure soap and time the loads. He
doesn't like to fold and I can't say that it is my favorite either but he
hands it to me and I fold.>>
I wanted to second the FlyLady recommendation - www.flylady.net . Being on
the list and reading the steady stream of emails helped me to realize that
housework wasn't the huge job I had made it out to be. It also helped me to
see how deeply housework and judgments of self were intertwined, and it
prompted me to get to work on separating that out and realizing what is
truly important.
Yes, the language is beyond hokey sometimes, but underneath it all it's very
helpful. The condition of my house just isn't such a big deal anymore
because I know how to deal with it calmly, efficiently and without judgment.
Julie B
S Drag-teine
Well, no matter your definition of responsibility, we share it. There are
times that my son decided that something needs cleaned up. He will say we
need to clean this place up - usually meaning the living room because he
wants to vacuum. We have a tiny shark vac bought because he likes to vacuum
and it is the perfect size for any small child. Also, he will notice that
the dishes need done and ask if he can do them which usually leads to us
scrubbing the kitchen floor because he gets water every where and we clean
it up. We turn boring tasks into fun games like racing sponges across the
floor or timer pick-up where we set the timer for 15 minutes or play a funny
song and see how much we can pick-up before it goes off.
He takes equal part in what goes on in the house and he gets equal say when
there is a decision to be made. It is part of the democratic schooling
philosophy that takes the next step in unschooling. Usually it is in a
democratic school and like unschooling you don't truly understand unless you
see it work for yourself. My son doesn't go to a democratic school but we
have several friends that do and some of those that teach there have talked
about how they also use the same approach at home.
Sandra is right though that the adults take the ultimate responsibility. If
something doesn't get done it falls to me or my DH to get it done. He is 5
1/2 and he does more then we expect him to do. There are times just like
everyone else in my house that he doesn't want to do anything but play with
his blocks all day and that is exactly that. Just like some days I feel like
reading all day or DH wants to play a PC game all day. Mind you me and DH do
get up to take care of kids and if we think about it run a load of laundry
but some days as little as possible getting done is the order of the day.
No matter what you call the tasks needed to run a household - my point was
not to look at them negatively but to turn them into something else -
FlyLady calls them a Parade of Daily Adventures. If you look at the thinks
we have to do as things we get to do and find a way to make them more fun
like doing them together when you can. The household tasks can be done by
the whole family like they were way back when - a family that stays together
stays together. In a world that has so many things that distracts and
separates us it is good to get back to basics and make household tasks
family tasks when you can.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 4:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] literal meaning of responsibility
times that my son decided that something needs cleaned up. He will say we
need to clean this place up - usually meaning the living room because he
wants to vacuum. We have a tiny shark vac bought because he likes to vacuum
and it is the perfect size for any small child. Also, he will notice that
the dishes need done and ask if he can do them which usually leads to us
scrubbing the kitchen floor because he gets water every where and we clean
it up. We turn boring tasks into fun games like racing sponges across the
floor or timer pick-up where we set the timer for 15 minutes or play a funny
song and see how much we can pick-up before it goes off.
He takes equal part in what goes on in the house and he gets equal say when
there is a decision to be made. It is part of the democratic schooling
philosophy that takes the next step in unschooling. Usually it is in a
democratic school and like unschooling you don't truly understand unless you
see it work for yourself. My son doesn't go to a democratic school but we
have several friends that do and some of those that teach there have talked
about how they also use the same approach at home.
Sandra is right though that the adults take the ultimate responsibility. If
something doesn't get done it falls to me or my DH to get it done. He is 5
1/2 and he does more then we expect him to do. There are times just like
everyone else in my house that he doesn't want to do anything but play with
his blocks all day and that is exactly that. Just like some days I feel like
reading all day or DH wants to play a PC game all day. Mind you me and DH do
get up to take care of kids and if we think about it run a load of laundry
but some days as little as possible getting done is the order of the day.
No matter what you call the tasks needed to run a household - my point was
not to look at them negatively but to turn them into something else -
FlyLady calls them a Parade of Daily Adventures. If you look at the thinks
we have to do as things we get to do and find a way to make them more fun
like doing them together when you can. The household tasks can be done by
the whole family like they were way back when - a family that stays together
stays together. In a world that has so many things that distracts and
separates us it is good to get back to basics and make household tasks
family tasks when you can.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 4:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] literal meaning of responsibility
On Feb 23, 2006, at 1:04 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:
>
> I don't really think that is the truth. Taking care of the house is
> everyone
> who lives in the houses responsibility - not job.
"Job" is something with a start and a finish, and usually something
one is paid for.
Housework doesn't have a start or a finish (unless one has contracted
to do the floors and bathrooms, or whatever, as "a job" for pay).
Responsibility cannot ever really be shared by a large group or
family. Someone is in charge.
Responsibility means someone needs to answer to someone else for
whether it gets done. A husband and a wife can share responsibility
the same way they share a mortgage, because marriage is like a
corporation. The two become one in some legal ways. <g>
If the county comes and makes a sanitation claim (like you get a
citation or official warning in writing about something like junk in
your yard, or unsanitary conditions), that is NOT the
"responsibility" of children, but of the homeowner or the lease
holder or renter. The parents are responsible. The children don't
equally own the house, and if someone DOES have a house in the name
of a minor child, someone is the guardian and it's his or her
responsibility to make sure DOUBLY that the house is maintained to
meet safety standards, city statutes, and to some extent to maintain
the value of the property. That legal guardian would be responsible
(literally) to the courts if they aren't doing a good job taking care
of the children and property entrusted to their care.
Responsibility has a real meaning. And minor children don't have
"responsibility" unless the parents have made up some rules and
punishments, and "made the child responsible (answerable)" to the
parent.
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 23, 2006, at 6:57 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:
has equal say except insofar as you share your "say" with him.
-=He takes equal part in what goes on in the house and he gets equal
say when
there is a decision to be made.
--=-
If he wants to wait a month on paying the rent or mortgage payment,
I'm guessing you'd persuade him or veto him. I doubt you take turns
unilaterally deciding, and I doubt he vetoes you. Not all equal say
is equal.
We can give our children freedom, leeway and choice because we are
responsible for them, legally.
We don't "have to" give our children freedom, leeway and choice. All
around us families are limiting and preventing children.
-=-It is part of the democratic schooling
philosophy that takes the next step in unschooling. Usually it is in a
democratic school and like unschooling you don't truly understand
unless you
see it work for yourself. -=-
The closest "democratic schools" I've seen are generally about as
token-democracy as public high schools with student councils and
all. When students have an equal say in how funds are spent and
whether a roof is repaired or not, etc., it's equal because the
owners of the building and those who have accepted responsibility and
who accept money from parents have divied up their "power" and shared
it out. They can't give it all away.
-=-Sandra is right though that the adults take the ultimate
responsibility.-=-
Adults don't generally "take" the responsibility to be parents, they
are given the responsibility by others. I am responsible to my
husband, to the county and city I live in, to the federal government
and the state government in various small and large ways. I am
responsible to my children, and if I were to fail in those
responsibilities, it would make me an irresponsible person. I would
lose respect, integrity, reliability—all the good stuff—if I didn't
do what others expected me to do, or at least negotiate with them
about what I am willing and intend to do (when appropriate, like
homeschooling instead of enrolling kids in school, and claiming an
exemption for something, or requesting special permits or variances.
-=-It is part of the democratic schooling
philosophy that takes the next step in unschooling. -=-
I don't know what you meant by this exactly, but unschooling doesn't
lead to a "democratic schooling philosophy."
Sandra
> He takes equal part in what goes on in the house and he gets equalIf he decides to sell the house is that okay with you? I doubt he
> say when
> there is a decision to be made
has equal say except insofar as you share your "say" with him.
-=He takes equal part in what goes on in the house and he gets equal
say when
there is a decision to be made.
--=-
If he wants to wait a month on paying the rent or mortgage payment,
I'm guessing you'd persuade him or veto him. I doubt you take turns
unilaterally deciding, and I doubt he vetoes you. Not all equal say
is equal.
We can give our children freedom, leeway and choice because we are
responsible for them, legally.
We don't "have to" give our children freedom, leeway and choice. All
around us families are limiting and preventing children.
-=-It is part of the democratic schooling
philosophy that takes the next step in unschooling. Usually it is in a
democratic school and like unschooling you don't truly understand
unless you
see it work for yourself. -=-
The closest "democratic schools" I've seen are generally about as
token-democracy as public high schools with student councils and
all. When students have an equal say in how funds are spent and
whether a roof is repaired or not, etc., it's equal because the
owners of the building and those who have accepted responsibility and
who accept money from parents have divied up their "power" and shared
it out. They can't give it all away.
-=-Sandra is right though that the adults take the ultimate
responsibility.-=-
Adults don't generally "take" the responsibility to be parents, they
are given the responsibility by others. I am responsible to my
husband, to the county and city I live in, to the federal government
and the state government in various small and large ways. I am
responsible to my children, and if I were to fail in those
responsibilities, it would make me an irresponsible person. I would
lose respect, integrity, reliability—all the good stuff—if I didn't
do what others expected me to do, or at least negotiate with them
about what I am willing and intend to do (when appropriate, like
homeschooling instead of enrolling kids in school, and claiming an
exemption for something, or requesting special permits or variances.
-=-It is part of the democratic schooling
philosophy that takes the next step in unschooling. -=-
I don't know what you meant by this exactly, but unschooling doesn't
lead to a "democratic schooling philosophy."
Sandra
S Drag-teine
"Yes, the language is beyond hokey sometimes"
The language makes things fun and that is her point to change your
perspective and show you that doing little things can add up. DH loves the
term "reboot the laundry"
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Julie
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 6:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] baffled
<< The first thing you have to do is change your thinking about housework.
Don't look at it as something negative, find a way to make it a positive
thing. I joined a list called FlyLady
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FlyLadyMentors> . If you visit her website
FlyLady.net, you will see what it is all about. She really helped me see
that housework didn't have to be all work and then my son saw me having fun
and helps when he isn't sucked into other things. It is how he learned how
to count, match socks, sort colors, measure soap and time the loads. He
doesn't like to fold and I can't say that it is my favorite either but he
hands it to me and I fold.>>
I wanted to second the FlyLady recommendation - www.flylady.net . Being on
the list and reading the steady stream of emails helped me to realize that
housework wasn't the huge job I had made it out to be. It also helped me to
see how deeply housework and judgments of self were intertwined, and it
prompted me to get to work on separating that out and realizing what is
truly important.
Yes, the language is beyond hokey sometimes, but underneath it all it's very
helpful. The condition of my house just isn't such a big deal anymore
because I know how to deal with it calmly, efficiently and without judgment.
Julie B
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
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_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The language makes things fun and that is her point to change your
perspective and show you that doing little things can add up. DH loves the
term "reboot the laundry"
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Julie
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 6:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] baffled
<< The first thing you have to do is change your thinking about housework.
Don't look at it as something negative, find a way to make it a positive
thing. I joined a list called FlyLady
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FlyLadyMentors> . If you visit her website
FlyLady.net, you will see what it is all about. She really helped me see
that housework didn't have to be all work and then my son saw me having fun
and helps when he isn't sucked into other things. It is how he learned how
to count, match socks, sort colors, measure soap and time the loads. He
doesn't like to fold and I can't say that it is my favorite either but he
hands it to me and I fold.>>
I wanted to second the FlyLady recommendation - www.flylady.net . Being on
the list and reading the steady stream of emails helped me to realize that
housework wasn't the huge job I had made it out to be. It also helped me to
see how deeply housework and judgments of self were intertwined, and it
prompted me to get to work on separating that out and realizing what is
truly important.
Yes, the language is beyond hokey sometimes, but underneath it all it's very
helpful. The condition of my house just isn't such a big deal anymore
because I know how to deal with it calmly, efficiently and without judgment.
Julie B
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
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SPONSORED LINKS
Graduate
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Graduate+school+education&w1=Graduate+s
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ddle+school+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+ca
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
S Drag-teine
"If he decides to sell the house is that okay with you?"
Actually, we are looking at moving because he wants a dog and where we are
we can't have one.
"If he wants to wait a month on paying the rent or mortgage payment,
I'm guessing you'd persuade him or veto him."
He has asked to skip paying the bills so that he could buy this or that and
we have explained to him that if we don't pay the bills this month that they
will turn off the electricity, the water or take away the car or house. Then
we ask him if he still thinks that it is a good idea if we use money to pay
the bills to buy something he wants. He is smart and will say "no, I guess
that isn't a good idea but can we start saving money to buy..." whatever he
wants. We will discuss how we can save and if there are things we can cut
back on for a short period of time to save the money faster.
" The closest "democratic schools" I've seen are generally about as
token-democracy as public high schools with student councils and
all."
I don't know what one is closet to you... if you want to see a democratic
school that really works well... go to PA and visit the Circle Schoo or if
you are in VA I suggest Blue Ridge. If you head overseas, let me know there
are some that beat US hands down. I can even suggest some people to meet
since we have friends there. In PA and the one in VA the land is in trust -
no one "owns" it. Each person regardless of age is given equal vote, respect
and responsibility for self and other.
I can't say that each school is run the way the founders intended. I haven't
been to each and every one of them but I can tell you the way the founders
intended them to run. I am a member of SOL (School of Living), AERO (The
Alternative Education Resource Organization) and a co-editor for the GR
(Green Revolution). Either last year or the year before at IDEC
(International Democratic Education Conference) one of the speakers was a
daughter of one of the founder of the Sudbury Model which she mentioned was
founded on the same ideals as unschooling. She talked how they had wanted to
take unschooling to the next level by giving children equal say and equal
vote.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] literal meaning of responsibility
Actually, we are looking at moving because he wants a dog and where we are
we can't have one.
"If he wants to wait a month on paying the rent or mortgage payment,
I'm guessing you'd persuade him or veto him."
He has asked to skip paying the bills so that he could buy this or that and
we have explained to him that if we don't pay the bills this month that they
will turn off the electricity, the water or take away the car or house. Then
we ask him if he still thinks that it is a good idea if we use money to pay
the bills to buy something he wants. He is smart and will say "no, I guess
that isn't a good idea but can we start saving money to buy..." whatever he
wants. We will discuss how we can save and if there are things we can cut
back on for a short period of time to save the money faster.
" The closest "democratic schools" I've seen are generally about as
token-democracy as public high schools with student councils and
all."
I don't know what one is closet to you... if you want to see a democratic
school that really works well... go to PA and visit the Circle Schoo or if
you are in VA I suggest Blue Ridge. If you head overseas, let me know there
are some that beat US hands down. I can even suggest some people to meet
since we have friends there. In PA and the one in VA the land is in trust -
no one "owns" it. Each person regardless of age is given equal vote, respect
and responsibility for self and other.
I can't say that each school is run the way the founders intended. I haven't
been to each and every one of them but I can tell you the way the founders
intended them to run. I am a member of SOL (School of Living), AERO (The
Alternative Education Resource Organization) and a co-editor for the GR
(Green Revolution). Either last year or the year before at IDEC
(International Democratic Education Conference) one of the speakers was a
daughter of one of the founder of the Sudbury Model which she mentioned was
founded on the same ideals as unschooling. She talked how they had wanted to
take unschooling to the next level by giving children equal say and equal
vote.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] literal meaning of responsibility
On Feb 23, 2006, at 6:57 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:
> He takes equal part in what goes on in the house and he gets equal
> say when
> there is a decision to be made
If he decides to sell the house is that okay with you? I doubt he
has equal say except insofar as you share your "say" with him.
-=He takes equal part in what goes on in the house and he gets equal
say when
there is a decision to be made.
--=-
If he wants to wait a month on paying the rent or mortgage payment,
I'm guessing you'd persuade him or veto him. I doubt you take turns
unilaterally deciding, and I doubt he vetoes you. Not all equal say
is equal.
We can give our children freedom, leeway and choice because we are
responsible for them, legally.
We don't "have to" give our children freedom, leeway and choice. All
around us families are limiting and preventing children.
-=-It is part of the democratic schooling
philosophy that takes the next step in unschooling. Usually it is in a
democratic school and like unschooling you don't truly understand
unless you
see it work for yourself. -=-
The closest "democratic schools" I've seen are generally about as
token-democracy as public high schools with student councils and
all. When students have an equal say in how funds are spent and
whether a roof is repaired or not, etc., it's equal because the
owners of the building and those who have accepted responsibility and
who accept money from parents have divied up their "power" and shared
it out. They can't give it all away.
-=-Sandra is right though that the adults take the ultimate
responsibility.-=-
Adults don't generally "take" the responsibility to be parents, they
are given the responsibility by others. I am responsible to my
husband, to the county and city I live in, to the federal government
and the state government in various small and large ways. I am
responsible to my children, and if I were to fail in those
responsibilities, it would make me an irresponsible person. I would
lose respect, integrity, reliability-all the good stuff-if I didn't
do what others expected me to do, or at least negotiate with them
about what I am willing and intend to do (when appropriate, like
homeschooling instead of enrolling kids in school, and claiming an
exemption for something, or requesting special permits or variances.
-=-It is part of the democratic schooling
philosophy that takes the next step in unschooling. -=-
I don't know what you meant by this exactly, but unschooling doesn't
lead to a "democratic schooling philosophy."
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
[email protected]
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Feb 23, 2006, at 9:41 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:
level, though.
And Sudbury and other democratic schools are full of rules -- the
rules might be made by students, but still, lots of them. And they
have things like a judicial committee that meets every day to make
judgments on complaints against students and adults.
Not unschooling.
A good substitute for those who don't want to unschool, for whatever
reason, but most definitely not the "next level."
If anything, unschooling is the next level - democratic or free
schools pre-date unschooling. Summerhill started in 1921! Sudbury
Valley, in MA, started in 1968. John Holt didn't begin writing about
homeschooling/unschooling until the mid 70's.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> She talked how they had wanted toA school that takes children away from their parents isn't the next
> take unschooling to the next level by giving children equal say and
> equal
> vote.
level, though.
And Sudbury and other democratic schools are full of rules -- the
rules might be made by students, but still, lots of them. And they
have things like a judicial committee that meets every day to make
judgments on complaints against students and adults.
Not unschooling.
A good substitute for those who don't want to unschool, for whatever
reason, but most definitely not the "next level."
If anything, unschooling is the next level - democratic or free
schools pre-date unschooling. Summerhill started in 1921! Sudbury
Valley, in MA, started in 1968. John Holt didn't begin writing about
homeschooling/unschooling until the mid 70's.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 23, 2006, at 3:04 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:
housework done better. A mom taking on the attitude that housework
belongs to everyone will not yield a home full of happy helpers.
Frankly it's hard to find information about parenting that *isn't*
about imposing "responsibilities" on children so *that* we've all
heard before. "Imposing responsibiities" leads to resentful children.
(As if we could impose responsibilities. The concept really beats the
crap out of the meaning of responsibilities!)
But if you do have a respectful relationship with your son, if, as a
side effect, he does help happily and knows that he could choose not
to help, then discussing that could help others unschool better. For
your words to help others *unschool* better you'll need to dig deeper
into your philosophy and your practices to describe your relationship
with your son rather than presenting your attitude towards housework
if that makes sense.
Joyce
Answers to common unschooling questions:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Blog of writing prompts for speculative fiction writers:
http://dragonwritingprompts.blogsome.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't really think that is the truth. Taking care of the house isThe goal of the list is to help people unschool better, not get the
> everyone
> who lives in the houses responsibility
housework done better. A mom taking on the attitude that housework
belongs to everyone will not yield a home full of happy helpers.
Frankly it's hard to find information about parenting that *isn't*
about imposing "responsibilities" on children so *that* we've all
heard before. "Imposing responsibiities" leads to resentful children.
(As if we could impose responsibilities. The concept really beats the
crap out of the meaning of responsibilities!)
But if you do have a respectful relationship with your son, if, as a
side effect, he does help happily and knows that he could choose not
to help, then discussing that could help others unschool better. For
your words to help others *unschool* better you'll need to dig deeper
into your philosophy and your practices to describe your relationship
with your son rather than presenting your attitude towards housework
if that makes sense.
Joyce
Answers to common unschooling questions:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Blog of writing prompts for speculative fiction writers:
http://dragonwritingprompts.blogsome.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 23, 2006, at 10:41 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:
You're deciding as a group because the parents are being
exceptional. Most families would just say "no." Some would be
generous and say "No, sorry."
-=-He has asked to skip paying the bills so that he could buy this or
that and
we have explained to him that if we don't pay the bills this month
that they
will turn off the electricity, the water or take away the car or
house. -=-
You have to skip at least two payments for anything to be turned
off. sometimes people DO skip a month, in a calculated risk.
-=-Either last year or the year before at IDEC
(International Democratic Education Conference) one of the speakers
was a
daughter of one of the founder of the Sudbury Model which she
mentioned was
founded on the same ideals as unschooling. She talked how they had
wanted to
take unschooling to the next level by giving children equal say and
equal
vote.
-=-
All the 1960's school reforms were based on the same ideals as
unschooling.
But no matter what the form of a school, it's not "the next level" of
unschooling.
They can take a free school to a higher level.
Sandra
> Actually, we are looking at moving because he wants a dog and whereThat's "we." You're living as a group. That's good!
> we are
> we can't have one.
You're deciding as a group because the parents are being
exceptional. Most families would just say "no." Some would be
generous and say "No, sorry."
-=-He has asked to skip paying the bills so that he could buy this or
that and
we have explained to him that if we don't pay the bills this month
that they
will turn off the electricity, the water or take away the car or
house. -=-
You have to skip at least two payments for anything to be turned
off. sometimes people DO skip a month, in a calculated risk.
-=-Either last year or the year before at IDEC
(International Democratic Education Conference) one of the speakers
was a
daughter of one of the founder of the Sudbury Model which she
mentioned was
founded on the same ideals as unschooling. She talked how they had
wanted to
take unschooling to the next level by giving children equal say and
equal
vote.
-=-
All the 1960's school reforms were based on the same ideals as
unschooling.
But no matter what the form of a school, it's not "the next level" of
unschooling.
They can take a free school to a higher level.
Sandra
[email protected]
We have a large family, and believe it or not, the messes/housework is NOT
that big a deal, because we have all begun doing better at putting our own
stuff away.
As far as housework, getting all the nitty-gritty cleaning stuff can almost
be done in half a day...toilet cleaning, bathtub, dusting, vaccuming, etc,
especially if you're not a picky person. :o) I don't clean when I'm tired,
or cranky, because that tends to bring out the pity party in myself.
Sometimes I'll clean while the kids are still sleeping, or gone for the day.
In our home, I realized that the bulk of the mess was everyone getting stuff
out, and leaving it there for someone else to pick up. I don't mind messes,
and projects, at all. But it helped to talk with the kids about coming home
and flinging their jackets on the ground instead of hanging them, leaving
toys out, not putting their dishes in the dish washer, etc. It's not a matter
of having "jobs" or chores, it's just love and respect for each other. I
usually don't even have to remind someone, because another child will remind
them instead.
I like in the book, "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen, and Listen so Kids
Will Talk" the idea of using one word to help motivate; "Kelsey...jacket."
There is a chapter on how to enlist help without nagging or putting guilt on a
kid too. Instead of saying, "Bill, you left the milk out again, you are
always doing this! What's wrong with you!"...you don't even say the child's name,
and instead make a comment like, "milk goes bad when it's left out." You
are not accusing or pointing fingers, instead, you're giving information. It
really, really works.
Anyhow, just saying that getting everyone to pick up their own things, IMO,
isn't wrong. It's just teaching a child kindness and respect for each other.
That will leave a lot more time for moms or dads to rush through and get
the real cleaning done, or make it possible for the cleaning people to come
less.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that big a deal, because we have all begun doing better at putting our own
stuff away.
As far as housework, getting all the nitty-gritty cleaning stuff can almost
be done in half a day...toilet cleaning, bathtub, dusting, vaccuming, etc,
especially if you're not a picky person. :o) I don't clean when I'm tired,
or cranky, because that tends to bring out the pity party in myself.
Sometimes I'll clean while the kids are still sleeping, or gone for the day.
In our home, I realized that the bulk of the mess was everyone getting stuff
out, and leaving it there for someone else to pick up. I don't mind messes,
and projects, at all. But it helped to talk with the kids about coming home
and flinging their jackets on the ground instead of hanging them, leaving
toys out, not putting their dishes in the dish washer, etc. It's not a matter
of having "jobs" or chores, it's just love and respect for each other. I
usually don't even have to remind someone, because another child will remind
them instead.
I like in the book, "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen, and Listen so Kids
Will Talk" the idea of using one word to help motivate; "Kelsey...jacket."
There is a chapter on how to enlist help without nagging or putting guilt on a
kid too. Instead of saying, "Bill, you left the milk out again, you are
always doing this! What's wrong with you!"...you don't even say the child's name,
and instead make a comment like, "milk goes bad when it's left out." You
are not accusing or pointing fingers, instead, you're giving information. It
really, really works.
Anyhow, just saying that getting everyone to pick up their own things, IMO,
isn't wrong. It's just teaching a child kindness and respect for each other.
That will leave a lot more time for moms or dads to rush through and get
the real cleaning done, or make it possible for the cleaning people to come
less.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Oh...one more thing! :o)
I noticed that when my kids started getting older and having friends come
over much more, they took a greater interest in helping keep things clean, and
often straightened or vaccumed or loaded the dishwasher, wipe things down, etc
when their company comes. We usually all pitch in a little bit when one
child's friend is coming over, and in turn, when EACH child has someone coming
over we all do a quick 5 minute pick up. No biggy.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I noticed that when my kids started getting older and having friends come
over much more, they took a greater interest in helping keep things clean, and
often straightened or vaccumed or loaded the dishwasher, wipe things down, etc
when their company comes. We usually all pitch in a little bit when one
child's friend is coming over, and in turn, when EACH child has someone coming
over we all do a quick 5 minute pick up. No biggy.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 24, 2006, at 9:11 AM, CelticFrau@... wrote:
aware of taking care of their own things and of every other aspect of
what's good and helpful and right and forward-thinking.
As kids get older if they're feeling the weight of years of pressure
and shame and rules, though, they can sometimes be reactive teens who
purposely or unconsciously do things they KNOW will be obstructionist
because they have no other good way to express themselves, and they
express themselves in ways that cause the rift between them and their
parents to be even wider; then they move out or get pushed out.
From what I've seen, with unschooling things just get better.
Deb, that post was really good. Pam Sorooshian does the one word
thing well at her house. I do the "This isn't good for the [item]"
messages, into the air, as I put them in better places. Another
thing I developed was not to make things personal, but to generalize
them, like yesterday Holly was eating cinnamon crispas from Taco
Bell, and she was eating one with her mouth open. I said it bothered
me, but I also added in a moment (wishing I'd said that first) that
some people, or lots of people, are bothered by that noise. The
conversation flowed by and it was friendly and funny, so I can't
quote me now; sorry. If Holly thought *I* was personally and
individually bothered by it but I might be the only one in the world,
she would have different information than if I point out that it's
something that bothers some unknown percentage of people in general.
Anyway, I put that on a chores page, here:
http://sandradodd.com/chore/intro
Sandra
> We have a large family, and believe it or not, the messes/houseworkIt seems to get better as unschooled kids get older. They're more
> is NOT
> that big a deal, because we have all begun doing better at putting
> our own
> stuff away.
aware of taking care of their own things and of every other aspect of
what's good and helpful and right and forward-thinking.
As kids get older if they're feeling the weight of years of pressure
and shame and rules, though, they can sometimes be reactive teens who
purposely or unconsciously do things they KNOW will be obstructionist
because they have no other good way to express themselves, and they
express themselves in ways that cause the rift between them and their
parents to be even wider; then they move out or get pushed out.
From what I've seen, with unschooling things just get better.
Deb, that post was really good. Pam Sorooshian does the one word
thing well at her house. I do the "This isn't good for the [item]"
messages, into the air, as I put them in better places. Another
thing I developed was not to make things personal, but to generalize
them, like yesterday Holly was eating cinnamon crispas from Taco
Bell, and she was eating one with her mouth open. I said it bothered
me, but I also added in a moment (wishing I'd said that first) that
some people, or lots of people, are bothered by that noise. The
conversation flowed by and it was friendly and funny, so I can't
quote me now; sorry. If Holly thought *I* was personally and
individually bothered by it but I might be the only one in the world,
she would have different information than if I point out that it's
something that bothers some unknown percentage of people in general.
Anyway, I put that on a chores page, here:
http://sandradodd.com/chore/intro
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/24/2006 11:30:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Sandra@... writes:
messages, into the air, as I put them in better places. Another
thing I developed was not to make things personal, but to generalize
them, like yesterday Holly was eating cinnamon crispas from Taco
Bell, and she was eating one with her mouth open. I said it bothered
me, but I also added in a moment (wishing I'd said that first) that
some people, or lots of people, are bothered by that noise. The
conversation flowed by and it was friendly and funny, so I can't
quote me now; sorry. If Holly thought *I* was personally and
individually bothered by it but I might be the only one in the world,
she would have different information than if I point out that it's
something that bothers some unknown percentage of people in general<<
Because talking wtih my kids in this way (How to Talk so kids...etc) was so
foreign to me at first, I took my book and copied just the comics in it, and
stapled them together. At least once a month, I'll pull the "comics" out and
read through them...takes about 10 or 15 minutes, just to refresh. If I'm
feeling like I am especially snippy at the kids, I'll pull them out again. It
really helps to keep those ideas fresh in my head.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra@... writes:
>>>Pam Sorooshian does the one wordthing well at her house. I do the "This isn't good for the [item]"
messages, into the air, as I put them in better places. Another
thing I developed was not to make things personal, but to generalize
them, like yesterday Holly was eating cinnamon crispas from Taco
Bell, and she was eating one with her mouth open. I said it bothered
me, but I also added in a moment (wishing I'd said that first) that
some people, or lots of people, are bothered by that noise. The
conversation flowed by and it was friendly and funny, so I can't
quote me now; sorry. If Holly thought *I* was personally and
individually bothered by it but I might be the only one in the world,
she would have different information than if I point out that it's
something that bothers some unknown percentage of people in general<<
Because talking wtih my kids in this way (How to Talk so kids...etc) was so
foreign to me at first, I took my book and copied just the comics in it, and
stapled them together. At least once a month, I'll pull the "comics" out and
read through them...takes about 10 or 15 minutes, just to refresh. If I'm
feeling like I am especially snippy at the kids, I'll pull them out again. It
really helps to keep those ideas fresh in my head.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
S Drag-teine
"You're deciding as a group because the parents are being
exceptional."
Yes, that is how we decide anything and we discuss the consequences of our
actions like not paying bills on time. Yes, we may not get kicked out right
away but it spirals from just one missed payment. Not paying your bills on
time is not a calculated risk it is stupid. Unfortunately many people think
they can live from pay check to pay check, spend, spend, spend, charge,
charge, charge - without concern. My family models better behavior - we have
no charge cards, we live within our means and save for the things we want.
"But no matter what the form of a school, it's not "the next level" of
unschooling."
And as I have said all the Democrat schools are not equal - some are better
then others and to see a good one work is to understand how it was meant to
be run. It is the democrat principles applied at home that I referred to -
teachers and friends that teach or volunteer as well as parents of students
at the schools have adapted to their home life. And yes, the speaker said
that democratic principles took unschooling to the next level. If you
disagree, that is fine. in ways I see your point and in others I see her
point.
Even the most unschooling family has some rules or guidelines. No matter
what you call them they are there.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 9:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] literal meaning of responsibility
exceptional."
Yes, that is how we decide anything and we discuss the consequences of our
actions like not paying bills on time. Yes, we may not get kicked out right
away but it spirals from just one missed payment. Not paying your bills on
time is not a calculated risk it is stupid. Unfortunately many people think
they can live from pay check to pay check, spend, spend, spend, charge,
charge, charge - without concern. My family models better behavior - we have
no charge cards, we live within our means and save for the things we want.
"But no matter what the form of a school, it's not "the next level" of
unschooling."
And as I have said all the Democrat schools are not equal - some are better
then others and to see a good one work is to understand how it was meant to
be run. It is the democrat principles applied at home that I referred to -
teachers and friends that teach or volunteer as well as parents of students
at the schools have adapted to their home life. And yes, the speaker said
that democratic principles took unschooling to the next level. If you
disagree, that is fine. in ways I see your point and in others I see her
point.
Even the most unschooling family has some rules or guidelines. No matter
what you call them they are there.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 9:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] literal meaning of responsibility
On Feb 23, 2006, at 10:41 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:
> Actually, we are looking at moving because he wants a dog and where
> we are
> we can't have one.
That's "we." You're living as a group. That's good!
You're deciding as a group because the parents are being
exceptional. Most families would just say "no." Some would be
generous and say "No, sorry."
-=-He has asked to skip paying the bills so that he could buy this or
that and
we have explained to him that if we don't pay the bills this month
that they
will turn off the electricity, the water or take away the car or
house. -=-
You have to skip at least two payments for anything to be turned
off. sometimes people DO skip a month, in a calculated risk.
-=-Either last year or the year before at IDEC
(International Democratic Education Conference) one of the speakers
was a
daughter of one of the founder of the Sudbury Model which she
mentioned was
founded on the same ideals as unschooling. She talked how they had
wanted to
take unschooling to the next level by giving children equal say and
equal
vote.
-=-
All the 1960's school reforms were based on the same ideals as
unschooling.
But no matter what the form of a school, it's not "the next level" of
unschooling.
They can take a free school to a higher level.
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <
<http://www.unschooling.info> http://www.unschooling.info>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 24, 2006, at 12:01 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:
I think it's important to be honest with kids and not make convenient
statements like that if you miss a payment they throw you out. That
just plainly isn't true.
If someone has a huge medical emergency, or if the breadwinner is
flatly DOWN (as Keith was for three weeks last April, one week of
which he was in the hospital in very, very serious condition, and
them no closer to knowing what was really wrong), and a housepayment
is missed, the family is NOT thrown out of the house. I would never
tell my kids such a thing because it makes the world seem scarier
than it is.
My family models better behavior in the area of clarity and
truthfulness, maybe (by my gauge of those things).
And your family doesn't model better behavior than mine does in
paying bills either. Our bills are paid. Even when Keith was in the
hospital, our bills were paid. Had he been unconscious for any
length of time I wouldn't have thought about utility bills for a
heartbeat, because I *know* from the experience of others around me
that it will be two full months before they even threaten to turn off
utilities.
-=- Not paying your bills on
time is not a calculated risk it is stupid.-=-
This is not a statement of fact, it is a statement of judgmental
emotion. Let's talk about what is, rather than what we want to label
and condemn things as being, please. It's a discussion list, and so
principles of productive discussion are very important.
-=-"But no matter what the form of a school, it's not "the next
level" of
unschooling."
-=-And as I have said all the Democrat schools are not equal --=-
No school is unschooling. This list is about unschooling, not about
free schools, democratic schools, alternative-extravaganza-charter-
open-classroom schools.
-=-It is the democrat principles applied at home that I referred to -
teachers and friends that teach or volunteer as well as parents of
students
at the schools have adapted to their home life-=-
Cutting kids in on decision making is fantastic.
Trying to impose "responsibility" on children who do not legally or
socially have literal responsibility (nor CAN a child under various
certain ages be considered legally reponsible) is not even cool.
-=-Even the most unschooling family has some rules or guidelines. No
matter
what you call them they are there.-=-
Even the most unschooling list has rules and guidelines. Ours are here:
http://sandradodd.com/lists/info
Ideas about living by principle instead of rules in families is here
(and various other places in the message archives here, and on
Joyce's site, and in an article by Danielle Conger, and the outline
of the talk by Ben Lovejoy, most of which are linked): http://
sandradodd.com/rules
Sandra
> Not paying your bills onDifferent families have different favorite values and virtues.
> time is not a calculated risk it is stupid. Unfortunately many
> people think
> they can live from pay check to pay check, spend, spend, spend,
> charge,
> charge, charge - without concern. My family models better behavior -
I think it's important to be honest with kids and not make convenient
statements like that if you miss a payment they throw you out. That
just plainly isn't true.
If someone has a huge medical emergency, or if the breadwinner is
flatly DOWN (as Keith was for three weeks last April, one week of
which he was in the hospital in very, very serious condition, and
them no closer to knowing what was really wrong), and a housepayment
is missed, the family is NOT thrown out of the house. I would never
tell my kids such a thing because it makes the world seem scarier
than it is.
My family models better behavior in the area of clarity and
truthfulness, maybe (by my gauge of those things).
And your family doesn't model better behavior than mine does in
paying bills either. Our bills are paid. Even when Keith was in the
hospital, our bills were paid. Had he been unconscious for any
length of time I wouldn't have thought about utility bills for a
heartbeat, because I *know* from the experience of others around me
that it will be two full months before they even threaten to turn off
utilities.
-=- Not paying your bills on
time is not a calculated risk it is stupid.-=-
This is not a statement of fact, it is a statement of judgmental
emotion. Let's talk about what is, rather than what we want to label
and condemn things as being, please. It's a discussion list, and so
principles of productive discussion are very important.
-=-"But no matter what the form of a school, it's not "the next
level" of
unschooling."
-=-And as I have said all the Democrat schools are not equal --=-
No school is unschooling. This list is about unschooling, not about
free schools, democratic schools, alternative-extravaganza-charter-
open-classroom schools.
-=-It is the democrat principles applied at home that I referred to -
teachers and friends that teach or volunteer as well as parents of
students
at the schools have adapted to their home life-=-
Cutting kids in on decision making is fantastic.
Trying to impose "responsibility" on children who do not legally or
socially have literal responsibility (nor CAN a child under various
certain ages be considered legally reponsible) is not even cool.
-=-Even the most unschooling family has some rules or guidelines. No
matter
what you call them they are there.-=-
Even the most unschooling list has rules and guidelines. Ours are here:
http://sandradodd.com/lists/info
Ideas about living by principle instead of rules in families is here
(and various other places in the message archives here, and on
Joyce's site, and in an article by Danielle Conger, and the outline
of the talk by Ben Lovejoy, most of which are linked): http://
sandradodd.com/rules
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
On Feb 24, 2006, at 11:01 AM, S Drag-teine wrote:
talked about this.
I asked them, "What are the rules in our house?"
They said, "We don't have any rules."
I asked, "Well, no specific rules, but guidelines?" \
Them: "No. Nothing like that."
Me: "Every family has something - rules or guidelines or something
like that."
Them: "We have brains and common sense."
So- I guess that's what "we" call it <G>.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Even the most unschooling family has some rules or guidelines. NoI just talked to my kids (15 and 18 year olds) - we've never directly
> matter
> what you call them they are there.
talked about this.
I asked them, "What are the rules in our house?"
They said, "We don't have any rules."
I asked, "Well, no specific rules, but guidelines?" \
Them: "No. Nothing like that."
Me: "Every family has something - rules or guidelines or something
like that."
Them: "We have brains and common sense."
So- I guess that's what "we" call it <G>.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 24, 2006, at 1:56 PM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
18 and 9. We've discussed their rules for calling "Shotgun" and o
urs. Sometimes theirs conflict with ours. We don't really care,
because Holly is often the only kid in the car anymore.
Holly explained Kirby's rules, when he's driving, which involve not
calling it before Kirby says it's time to go, or heads to the van,
and the person has to be able to see the van.
When my kids were little we had a rotation. It wasn't for
"shotgun." It was for having the first pick of seats. Sometimes
someone wanted the window behind the driver, but whoever's "turn" it
was got to pick. Rotation went from younger to older. We had sub
clauses about whether it counted if you were the only kid in the car
(it didn't) or what if you missed a turn (you might trade with the
next one up, or let it go... depends on the kid's age and mood, so I
guess it wasn't a rule <g>).
More recently we work on the principle that if it's someone's
"trip" (like Holly to the orthodontist, or like earlier today,
Cameron to the airport) then that person for whom the drive is being
made gets to choose where to sit. Those who are just going along for
the ride can't call shotgun. (On the way home Duncan called shotgun
and that was fine.)
Sandra
> I asked them, "What are the rules in our house?"Over the past two days we've had Cameron and Duncan Lovejoy, who are
> They said, "We don't have any rules."
> I asked, "Well, no specific rules, but guidelines?" \
> Them: "No. Nothing like that."
> Me: "Every family has something - rules or guidelines or something
> like that."
> Them: "We have brains and common sense."
18 and 9. We've discussed their rules for calling "Shotgun" and o
urs. Sometimes theirs conflict with ours. We don't really care,
because Holly is often the only kid in the car anymore.
Holly explained Kirby's rules, when he's driving, which involve not
calling it before Kirby says it's time to go, or heads to the van,
and the person has to be able to see the van.
When my kids were little we had a rotation. It wasn't for
"shotgun." It was for having the first pick of seats. Sometimes
someone wanted the window behind the driver, but whoever's "turn" it
was got to pick. Rotation went from younger to older. We had sub
clauses about whether it counted if you were the only kid in the car
(it didn't) or what if you missed a turn (you might trade with the
next one up, or let it go... depends on the kid's age and mood, so I
guess it wasn't a rule <g>).
More recently we work on the principle that if it's someone's
"trip" (like Holly to the orthodontist, or like earlier today,
Cameron to the airport) then that person for whom the drive is being
made gets to choose where to sit. Those who are just going along for
the ride can't call shotgun. (On the way home Duncan called shotgun
and that was fine.)
Sandra
nellebelle
>>>>>>>>>>My family models better behavior - we haveHaving charge cards does not equal bad or less good behavior. Charge cards
> no charge cards>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
are a financial tool.
Mary Ellen
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/24/2006 5:18:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, nellebell
e@... writes:
are a financial tool.<<
We've gone without cards before, and it honestly cost us more. We were not
able to purchase things online which were really good deals (amazon, etc) and
had to pay more at bookstores. Or when something REALLY good came up on
Ebay, and I didn't have the cash in my paypal account, I've used credit cards
then paid them off a month or two later. And although the interest sucks,
they've saved us quite a few times when emergencies came up.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
e@... writes:
>>Having charge cards does not equal bad or less good behavior. Chargecards
are a financial tool.<<
We've gone without cards before, and it honestly cost us more. We were not
able to purchase things online which were really good deals (amazon, etc) and
had to pay more at bookstores. Or when something REALLY good came up on
Ebay, and I didn't have the cash in my paypal account, I've used credit cards
then paid them off a month or two later. And although the interest sucks,
they've saved us quite a few times when emergencies came up.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
My brother works for an eccentric millionaire who runs a car racing
company. They travel all over the country all winter for races. One
of my brother's jobs is renting cars and hotel rooms for 10-12 guys
at a time, and paying for expenses incurred on trips. The eccentric
millionaire won't use credit cards, so my brother sometimes finds
himself carrying tens of thousands of dollars in cash--or having to
call the bank and have $20,000 Fed-Exed to wherever they are (can you
imagine? It's like something from a movie). It amuses my brother--he
likes showing us how high a stack 30k in hundreds makes. But it also
inconveniences him and worries him.
Su
p.s. Just to try to bring this back on-topic <g>, I do talk about my
brother when people think their kids have "impractical" passions. I
can remember Gary drawing racing cars over and over when we were
kids. He restored an old Mustang convertible when we were teenagers.
He became an auto technician (a 2-year degree) and worked for a long
time for GM Performance Parts, the division that makes parts for
racing cars. Through that connection he met the eccentric millionaire
and ended up working for him. Now he's got his dream job and is as
happy as a pig in sh-t. He's not a race car driver, which maybe would
have been his first choice, but he's in the thick of things in a
profession he has loved since he was a kid.
company. They travel all over the country all winter for races. One
of my brother's jobs is renting cars and hotel rooms for 10-12 guys
at a time, and paying for expenses incurred on trips. The eccentric
millionaire won't use credit cards, so my brother sometimes finds
himself carrying tens of thousands of dollars in cash--or having to
call the bank and have $20,000 Fed-Exed to wherever they are (can you
imagine? It's like something from a movie). It amuses my brother--he
likes showing us how high a stack 30k in hundreds makes. But it also
inconveniences him and worries him.
Su
p.s. Just to try to bring this back on-topic <g>, I do talk about my
brother when people think their kids have "impractical" passions. I
can remember Gary drawing racing cars over and over when we were
kids. He restored an old Mustang convertible when we were teenagers.
He became an auto technician (a 2-year degree) and worked for a long
time for GM Performance Parts, the division that makes parts for
racing cars. Through that connection he met the eccentric millionaire
and ended up working for him. Now he's got his dream job and is as
happy as a pig in sh-t. He's not a race car driver, which maybe would
have been his first choice, but he's in the thick of things in a
profession he has loved since he was a kid.
On Feb 24, 2006, at 5:13 PM, nellebelle wrote:
> Having charge cards does not equal bad or less good behavior.
> Charge cards
> are a financial tool.
S Drag-teine
"Me: "Every family has something - rules or guidelines or something
like that."
Them: "We have brains and common sense.""
Yep, and someone taught it to them. Like not hitting, or not taking
something that doesn't belong to you.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pamela
Sorooshian
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 3:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] literal meaning of responsibility
like that."
Them: "We have brains and common sense.""
Yep, and someone taught it to them. Like not hitting, or not taking
something that doesn't belong to you.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pamela
Sorooshian
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 3:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] literal meaning of responsibility
On Feb 24, 2006, at 11:01 AM, S Drag-teine wrote:
> Even the most unschooling family has some rules or guidelines. No
> matter
> what you call them they are there.
I just talked to my kids (15 and 18 year olds) - we've never directly
talked about this.
I asked them, "What are the rules in our house?"
They said, "We don't have any rules."
I asked, "Well, no specific rules, but guidelines?" \
Them: "No. Nothing like that."
Me: "Every family has something - rules or guidelines or something
like that."
Them: "We have brains and common sense."
So- I guess that's what "we" call it <G>.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
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Robyn Coburn
<<<<< And although the interest sucks,
they've saved us quite a few times when emergencies came up. >>>
We use credit cards for a couple of regular payments, such as our health
insurance, that we absolutely do not want to miss. Then we pay the card off
in full with each statement. That is a good way both to have a convenient
record of expenses, and to avoid the interest charges. It is nice to be free
of debt in general.
Dh uses American Express for his major business equipment purchases and
rentals. This is money that he would be spending anyway, and he gets the
reward points/miles. Again we plan for and pay the full amount off each
month.
Jayn is pretty much always around when I am "doing the bills" each month,
although I think she sees it as a regular nuisance. I love the convenience
of the computer. Internet banking lets me keep track daily, if I want to.
I'd rather be carrying a debit card in my purse than a pile of cash to the
supermarket. I've lost my purse about 4 times in my life - I only lost about
5 bucks last time.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006
they've saved us quite a few times when emergencies came up. >>>
We use credit cards for a couple of regular payments, such as our health
insurance, that we absolutely do not want to miss. Then we pay the card off
in full with each statement. That is a good way both to have a convenient
record of expenses, and to avoid the interest charges. It is nice to be free
of debt in general.
Dh uses American Express for his major business equipment purchases and
rentals. This is money that he would be spending anyway, and he gets the
reward points/miles. Again we plan for and pay the full amount off each
month.
Jayn is pretty much always around when I am "doing the bills" each month,
although I think she sees it as a regular nuisance. I love the convenience
of the computer. Internet banking lets me keep track daily, if I want to.
I'd rather be carrying a debit card in my purse than a pile of cash to the
supermarket. I've lost my purse about 4 times in my life - I only lost about
5 bucks last time.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006
S Drag-teine
"Different families have different favorite values and virtues.
I think it's important to be honest with kids and not make convenient
statements like that if you miss a payment they throw you out."
I am sorry, I shorted myself again. What we told him was that if we didn't
pay our payment for the house that they would take they house away from us.
However, he has already seen a friend of ours evicted and that is exactly
what they did - they took all of his stuff and dumped it out on the front
lawn. It was because he did live from pay check to pay check and when he
lost his job he had no emergency money to fall back on. I won't draw out all
the whole story but he has gotten back on his feet and learning to spend
money more wisely.
"If someone has a huge medical emergency, or if the breadwinner is flatly
DOWN"
I realize that medical emergencies happen but those are called emergencies.
In an emergency, yes bills will get missed and often bill collectors will
work with you and be patient about a missed payment here or there and allow
you to catch up later. When we were talking to DS, we were talking about the
consequence of not paying the bills. He asked, "what happens if we don't pay
for the house or lights?" and I replied that "The bank would eventually be
forced to take the house away from us and the electric company would turn
our lights off."
"This is not a statement of fact, it is a statement of judgmental emotion."
You are right and I am VERY sorry. I have had a bad day today. One of my
dear friends lost her husband and two of her children in an accident. The
third is in critical condition and we don't know if she is going to make it.
I did not express myself clearly. Not paying your bills on time can have
serious repercussions that impact your credit rating. The first time you
miss a bill payment they can make a report to the credit bureau. Which I
admit some people may not value but for those who are looking to buy a home,
a car or anything else that does have a substantial monetary value it is
important to the person who will be loaning you the money.
"This list is about unschooling."
You are right, enough said.
"Cutting kids in on decision making is fantastic. Trying to impose
"responsibility" on children who do not legally or
socially have literal responsibility (nor CAN a child under various certain
ages be considered legally reponsible) is not even cool."
I agree totally.
"Ideas about living by principle instead of rules in families is here"
Yes, like I said. No matter what you call them. I mean I don't go around
tell DS that such and such is against the rules. We don't really have rules
the way some families do. I let him know that I can't let him hurt his
sister anymore then I allow his sister to hurt him. something like that. We
make requests about being quite when someone is sleeping or have a headache.
Not that he isn't allowed to talk but he needs to do it with a quieter
voice. He often needs reminded as does his father unless it is his father
that has the headache. Reminders are just that reminders told to whomever
like it was the first time that day.
I just want to thank those of you who challenge me and make me rethink the
way we do things at home that show me there is a better way to think and
help me unlearn the schooly words that have been ingrained in our society.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 3:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] literal meaning of responsibility
I think it's important to be honest with kids and not make convenient
statements like that if you miss a payment they throw you out."
I am sorry, I shorted myself again. What we told him was that if we didn't
pay our payment for the house that they would take they house away from us.
However, he has already seen a friend of ours evicted and that is exactly
what they did - they took all of his stuff and dumped it out on the front
lawn. It was because he did live from pay check to pay check and when he
lost his job he had no emergency money to fall back on. I won't draw out all
the whole story but he has gotten back on his feet and learning to spend
money more wisely.
"If someone has a huge medical emergency, or if the breadwinner is flatly
DOWN"
I realize that medical emergencies happen but those are called emergencies.
In an emergency, yes bills will get missed and often bill collectors will
work with you and be patient about a missed payment here or there and allow
you to catch up later. When we were talking to DS, we were talking about the
consequence of not paying the bills. He asked, "what happens if we don't pay
for the house or lights?" and I replied that "The bank would eventually be
forced to take the house away from us and the electric company would turn
our lights off."
"This is not a statement of fact, it is a statement of judgmental emotion."
You are right and I am VERY sorry. I have had a bad day today. One of my
dear friends lost her husband and two of her children in an accident. The
third is in critical condition and we don't know if she is going to make it.
I did not express myself clearly. Not paying your bills on time can have
serious repercussions that impact your credit rating. The first time you
miss a bill payment they can make a report to the credit bureau. Which I
admit some people may not value but for those who are looking to buy a home,
a car or anything else that does have a substantial monetary value it is
important to the person who will be loaning you the money.
"This list is about unschooling."
You are right, enough said.
"Cutting kids in on decision making is fantastic. Trying to impose
"responsibility" on children who do not legally or
socially have literal responsibility (nor CAN a child under various certain
ages be considered legally reponsible) is not even cool."
I agree totally.
"Ideas about living by principle instead of rules in families is here"
Yes, like I said. No matter what you call them. I mean I don't go around
tell DS that such and such is against the rules. We don't really have rules
the way some families do. I let him know that I can't let him hurt his
sister anymore then I allow his sister to hurt him. something like that. We
make requests about being quite when someone is sleeping or have a headache.
Not that he isn't allowed to talk but he needs to do it with a quieter
voice. He often needs reminded as does his father unless it is his father
that has the headache. Reminders are just that reminders told to whomever
like it was the first time that day.
I just want to thank those of you who challenge me and make me rethink the
way we do things at home that show me there is a better way to think and
help me unlearn the schooly words that have been ingrained in our society.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 3:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] literal meaning of responsibility
On Feb 24, 2006, at 12:01 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:
> Not paying your bills on
> time is not a calculated risk it is stupid. Unfortunately many
> people think
> they can live from pay check to pay check, spend, spend, spend,
> charge,
> charge, charge - without concern. My family models better behavior -
Different families have different favorite values and virtues.
I think it's important to be honest with kids and not make convenient
statements like that if you miss a payment they throw you out. That
just plainly isn't true.
If someone has a huge medical emergency, or if the breadwinner is
flatly DOWN (as Keith was for three weeks last April, one week of
which he was in the hospital in very, very serious condition, and
them no closer to knowing what was really wrong), and a housepayment
is missed, the family is NOT thrown out of the house. I would never
tell my kids such a thing because it makes the world seem scarier
than it is.
My family models better behavior in the area of clarity and
truthfulness, maybe (by my gauge of those things).
And your family doesn't model better behavior than mine does in
paying bills either. Our bills are paid. Even when Keith was in the
hospital, our bills were paid. Had he been unconscious for any
length of time I wouldn't have thought about utility bills for a
heartbeat, because I *know* from the experience of others around me
that it will be two full months before they even threaten to turn off
utilities.
-=- Not paying your bills on
time is not a calculated risk it is stupid.-=-
This is not a statement of fact, it is a statement of judgmental
emotion. Let's talk about what is, rather than what we want to label
and condemn things as being, please. It's a discussion list, and so
principles of productive discussion are very important.
-=-"But no matter what the form of a school, it's not "the next
level" of
unschooling."
-=-And as I have said all the Democrat schools are not equal --=-
No school is unschooling. This list is about unschooling, not about
free schools, democratic schools, alternative-extravaganza-charter-
open-classroom schools.
-=-It is the democrat principles applied at home that I referred to -
teachers and friends that teach or volunteer as well as parents of
students
at the schools have adapted to their home life-=-
Cutting kids in on decision making is fantastic.
Trying to impose "responsibility" on children who do not legally or
socially have literal responsibility (nor CAN a child under various
certain ages be considered legally reponsible) is not even cool.
-=-Even the most unschooling family has some rules or guidelines. No
matter
what you call them they are there.-=-
Even the most unschooling list has rules and guidelines. Ours are here:
<http://sandradodd.com/lists/info> http://sandradodd.com/lists/info
Ideas about living by principle instead of rules in families is here
(and various other places in the message archives here, and on
Joyce's site, and in an article by Danielle Conger, and the outline
of the talk by Ben Lovejoy, most of which are linked): <http://> http://
sandradodd.com/rules
Sandra
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S Drag-teine
"Charge cards are a financial tool."
Charge cards are the biggest scam there is, ask any financial counselor,
they are the quickest way to get deep in debt then anything else you can
use.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
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From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of nellebelle
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 5:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] literal meaning of responsibility
are a financial tool.
Mary Ellen
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c=6&s=181&.sig=1aW-X2S2ZokW3qzZ8RgBsQ> Home school education
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Middle+school+education&w1=Graduate+sch
ool+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Middle+sc
hool+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+californi
a&c=6&s=181&.sig=ekWG86FHE6rjFjd8jaZHOw> Middle school education
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=New+york+school+education&w1=Graduate+s
chool+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Middle+
school+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+califor
nia&c=6&s=181&.sig=aSJE8BjHS18knvLinwtebQ> New york school education
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=School+education+in+california&w1=Gradu
ate+school+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Mi
ddle+school+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+ca
lifornia&c=6&s=181&.sig=gkGybS6R2TNc7Ffa1FldiA> School education in
california
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Charge cards are the biggest scam there is, ask any financial counselor,
they are the quickest way to get deep in debt then anything else you can
use.
Shannon
<http://www.melaleuca.com/> Melaleuca Customer
<http://www.paperbackswap.com/index.php?n=2&r_by=triskele@...> Join
our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of nellebelle
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 5:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] literal meaning of responsibility
>>>>>>>>>>My family models better behavior - we haveHaving charge cards does not equal bad or less good behavior. Charge cards
> no charge cards>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
are a financial tool.
Mary Ellen
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school+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+califor
nia&c=6&s=181&.sig=XeERtAmMH6xOclFlfF3kXw> Graduate school education
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=High+school+education&w1=Graduate+schoo
l+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Middle+scho
ol+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+california&
c=6&s=181&.sig=89oOLkTPWnhxf__b2u72QA> High school education
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Home+school+education&w1=Graduate+schoo
l+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Middle+scho
ol+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+california&
c=6&s=181&.sig=1aW-X2S2ZokW3qzZ8RgBsQ> Home school education
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Middle+school+education&w1=Graduate+sch
ool+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Middle+sc
hool+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+californi
a&c=6&s=181&.sig=ekWG86FHE6rjFjd8jaZHOw> Middle school education
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=New+york+school+education&w1=Graduate+s
chool+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Middle+
school+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+califor
nia&c=6&s=181&.sig=aSJE8BjHS18knvLinwtebQ> New york school education
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=School+education+in+california&w1=Gradu
ate+school+education&w2=High+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Mi
ddle+school+education&w5=New+york+school+education&w6=School+education+in+ca
lifornia&c=6&s=181&.sig=gkGybS6R2TNc7Ffa1FldiA> School education in
california
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