IN Mom

Hi everyone,

I'm Laura with dh John, Kathleen (10), Kari (9), and Sean (7). We're going through a really tough time right now and could use your sage advice.

We've always unschooled academically and want to go all the way with radical unschooling. However, we seem to run up against the same pattern of problems every time we get close to our ideal lifestyle.

Here's the cycle: First, we are living fairly happily with some rules but the kids and I want them to have more freedom and live more democratically. Next, we gradually let go of food guidelines, computer restrictions, bedtimes, etc. All goes well for a period of weeks to a couple of months. Then, Kathleen starts experimenting with extremes: not eating at all for a day or two, not sleeping for 40 hours straight, drinking a gallon and a half of milk a day, or whatever. She gets herself so sleep deprived or starved that she gets extremely irritable and starts picking fights with her siblings and other relatives. If we try to talk to her about how she's hurting people or making it difficult for us to get to appointments, she gets really resentful and accuses us of threatening to take away her freedoms. She says she can't trust us, maybe we don't really love her, and generally acts like a stereotypical angry teen.

At this point, the whole family life goes on a downward spiral until Kathleen is deliberately upsetting everyone, ruining family vacations, and we (parents) resort to putting the old rules back in place. This cycle has been repeating since Kathleen was a toddler! We try really hard to meet her needs, see things from her perspective, find ways to protect the siblings, offer her a wide variety of activities to try, and so on. It seems like the more we offer understanding and acceptance, the worse Kathleen's behavior gets. She just keeps ramping it up until we feel that we have to impose some structure to keep everyone safe. Somehow that seems to be her ultimate goal.

Sometimes we see the same self-defeating pattern outside the family, too. For example, when Kathleen makes a new friend, they have a great time for up to a few weeks, then she decides the friend has some fatal flaw and cuts off the relationship in a very hurtful way. One time she actually vandalized a public place. After that episode, she did see a child psychiatrist for about 6 months. The psychiatrist concluded that Kathleen doesn't have any mental illness, she's just working through some difficult puberty issues. As far as I can tell, they've been the same issues for the last 9 years, lol.

I could really use some suggestions about how to break the cycle we're in! Kathleen is such a bright, funny kid. She is wonderful with small children and has a real gift for training animals. I hate to see her hurting herself and the people around her.

Thanks!

Laura

plaidpanties666

When I get good and "stuck" on something, I like to try coming at the question from a different direction. What if what your dd is doing isn't "self defeating" at all? What if she's actually trying to explore something? Its not a terrible thing to explore extremes, when they're just things like food and sleep - but it could be terrible for her to explore extremes as an adult (or teen for that matter) when the extremes can be a whole lot more extreme!

The trouble could be this:
>>If we try to talk to her about how she's hurting people or making it difficult for us to get to appointments, she gets really resentful and accuses us of threatening to take away her freedoms. She says she can't trust us, maybe we don't really love her
******************

From her perspective, she's got a point - you Are going to take away her freedoms if she doesn't toe the line, after all, you've done it before. She *can't* trust you in that sense. You're not helping her get what she wants, you're throwing up roadblocks.

Okay, but what about her being unfriendly to other people? I didn't forget that part, I'm trying to see it from another angle. What if the question isn't "how can we transition to unschooling without Kathleen going to extremes"? What if you start with experimenting with extremes as a given? It Is a given for some kids. So if that's a given, the question becomes: How do you create a safe environment in which Kathleen can experiment with extremes? Safe for others as well as for her?

Its a different problem to solve, one it would be good to ask for her input on right from the start: "We Want to do this, we know you want to experiment, and we need to find a way to do that which works for All of Us." Do some brainstorming with her, with your dh, with your other kids, too. Maybe not all together as a group, maybe one at a time - that's going to depend on y'all. You don't want to frame the one kid as the "badguy" the one who keeps it all from working - that won't help her or the rest of you. Frame it as "she has this need, and we want to help her get it without all of us going bonkers."

See if she'll make some deals with you ahead of time, like that she agrees to take vitamins. It won't be a perfect thing, but it will help with moodiness. Do some research with her ahead of time into things like fasting - what do people who fast do to make sure they don't hurt themselves? Look up stories of holy people from different religions and cultures to give all y'all some context for what she's doing.

Another set of agreements ahead of time could be that, if she's especially irritable and hard to get along with, she stays home or keeps more to herself. Its important that this not be some kind of punishment, and that's why its important to talk about it beforehand. The middle of a crisis is the Worst time to talk about how everyone Else is unhappy, if you see what I mean?

>>This cycle has been repeating since Kathleen was a toddler!

There's a big need in there that's getting missed somehow. What is she like when "all the rules" are in place? Is she a perfectionist? An idealist? I'm *guessing* (and its a big guess, since I have just this post to go on) that she's kind of an extremist in some way and doesn't often get to "play" with that - okay, and maybe I'm projecting because that was me as a kid. I had extreme passions, but I was also basically a "good girl" a people pleaser, so I kept most of that locked down most of the time. I couldn't *keep* it down, so now and then I'd do something outrageous and everyone would say "I don't understand... she's such a good girl." That was a cycle that went 'round and round until I was...er... thirty something.

---Meredith (who's just past thirty something this year ;))

otherstar

From: IN Mom
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 2:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Help! 10 yo with self-defeating behavior...

>>>At this point, the whole family life goes on a downward spiral until Kathleen is deliberately upsetting everyone, ruining family vacations, and we (parents) resort to putting the old rules back in place. This cycle has been repeating since Kathleen was a toddler! We try really hard to meet her needs, see things from her perspective, find ways to protect the siblings, offer her a wide variety of activities to try, and so on. It seems like the more we offer understanding and acceptance, the worse Kathleen's behavior gets. She just keeps ramping it up until we feel that we have to impose some structure to keep everyone safe. Somehow that seems to be her ultimate goal.<<<

Perhaps she needs some structure. We have established a regular predictable pattern to our days. We don't have arbitrary rules or limits but there are some things that we have all decided that work for us as a family. We make sure to talk about what works when we are all in a good place. One of the things that works for us is going to bed as a family. For some reason, that seems to help everyone get regular sleep. Another consideration is to assess whether or not you are giving her too many choices and it is overwhelming her. When my kids start ramping things up, we try to find some time to do a lot of hanging out around the house. I pull them close and try to give them extra attention. Some kids are introverts and don't really want to travel or go lots of places.

I took unschooling to the extreme for a while and it didn't work for my kids because I wasn't giving them enough feedback. I wasn't communicating with them enough. My oldest daughter saw my attempts at unschooling as me not caring. She thought I wasn't involved enough and didn't care any more. After all, every message that you hear in public or on the TV says that parents that love their kids give them rules. Every parent that loves their kids put restrictions on them. When one of her friends found out that I let her cuss, they told her that her mom didn't love her because good moms don't let their little girls cuss. That was a hard one for me to address but we fumbled through it by me being honest with her. I tried to explain my thoughts to her and tried to help her realize that every family is different. The lack of rules doesn't mean that I don't love her.

I don't remember how it came out but she told me that she felt like me letting her do whatever she wanted meant that I didn't love her. Since we interact with the rest of the world, she saw first hand how other parents restricted their children. She wondered why she was so different. I don't remember how it all played out but I had to sit down with her and talk to her about why we were doing what we were doing. She wanted more input from me. She wanted me to help her feel better. Part of that is to help her go to bed at night. She will be nine this weekend but she still sleeps in our room because she had bad dreams and couldn't sleep in her room. Now, she sleeps in our room and goes to bed when we do. She doesn't like being over tired so she looks to me for help. I try to help her find solutions.

When my daughter isn't eating, I try to help her find things that she will like to eat. Sometimes, the problem is that she is craving something that we don't have but she doesn't want to ask me to get it for her because she knows I am busy with other stuff. Because she is the oldest, she tries to help me by not bugging me. We talk about it all the time but she sometimes gets lost in the shuffle and I forget to tell her that it is okay to ask me for stuff. Instead of waiting for her to ask, I have to remember to be proactive and make sure that she has everything that she might want or need. If I see that she isn't eating, I try to help her find something that she will eat even if that means offering to go get something or having her dad pick something up on the way home. Today, my girls were whiny and cranky and were picking fights with each other and were being miserable to me and to each other. They didn't want to eat anything we had in the house and, quite frankly, neither did I. We loaded up in the car and went to their favorite place to eat and got take out. The promptly ate it all and we all felt much better. Most of the times there is a trigger for the extreme behavior. I just have to figure out what it is.

>>>Sometimes we see the same self-defeating pattern outside the family, too. For example, when Kathleen makes a new friend, they have a great time for up to a few weeks, then she decides the friend has some fatal flaw and cuts off the relationship in a very hurtful way.<<<

Does she talk to you about the flaws in her friends before she cuts off the relationship? I feel like I am constantly talking to my girls about relationships. Whenever I see my kids getting into a negative pattern, I check myself to see if I am modeling those same behaviors in my relationships. I get in weird patterns if I don't check myself. I can usually tell that I am veering off the path that I want to be on when my girls start exhibiting certain behaviors. The pattern with friends seems to mimic the relationship that you have with her. Everything is going great until you can't handle her extreme behavior. At that point, you start limiting things. Isn't that the same thing that she is doing with her friends? Things go great with the friend until things get too extreme for her and then she limits it by cutting it off. I may be way off because I don't know all of the dynamics. That is just another perspective or possibility to consider.

Instead of just looking at her, you might look at other factors. Have her siblings been set up to have negative thoughts about their sister? Is this your oldest daughter? My oldest is a perfectionist and doesn't like to mess anything up. Every now and then she will get overwhelmed and start having extremes. I help her work it out by taking some time to spend with her without anybody else around.

Something else to consider is whether or not she is making friends for herself or for you. I am an introvert and don't like having lots of friends. I am overly sensitive and feel safest at home or in situations where I can be my uncensored self. Having friends gets to be too much work after a while so I tend to pull away. Having said all that, there is a huge pressure for kids (and adults) to socialize and have friends. If she is an introvert, she could be finding negative things about her friends so she doesn't have to do all of the work involved in having a friend. People don't seem to understand when somebody just doesn't have a huge desire to be overly social.

Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Those are fairly close ages. Not that you can do anything about that on the
surface, but perhaps what isn't factored in as you move away from a rule based
home is the time that each of them will need with you, with your partner, to
fill the void of the rules. And with three children so close in age it may take
more effort than you are anticipating to achieve that.


There have been few rules in our lives to remove, even so it takes a lot of my
attention to make sure that Simon's and Linnaea's needs are met. Food is a more
constant call for my attention. I have to offer regularly, platters used to be
quite handy, less so now, now they mostly want meals. A fair number of meals. It
takes knowing what they like and trying to have a fair range of things to hand
and being willing to go and get the things they want when they aren't handy. Not
immediately, well sometimes not immediately. If Simon isn't eating alot, David
or I will look for things that will appeal to him particularly.


Engagement is really important. As they've grown older it takes much more effort
by me to make sure that I'm connecting with them. Sandra has a chart of time a
parent needs to spend with their child: http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely,
and while it is a bit tongue in cheek, I think looking at the time Kathleen
needs with you as 10 hours a day may help you to address some of her
difficulties more than anything else. And knowing that Kathleen needing 10 hours
a day and Kari needing 11 hours a day and Sean needing 13 hours a day that your
are going to be spending a lot of time just hanging and doing and chatting and
being with your children, all of your children together as well as each of them
alone, well maybe it will help you to see more and more and more the points at
which Kathleen, particularly, is floundering.


Talking to someone about how they are hurting other people, well, it just makes
them feel worse. Linnaea used to get so angry and so frustrated and she would
lash out. Heck, yesterday I got really angry and frustrated and I lashed out.
And do you know the coolest thing, nobody lectured me, nobody told me how was
making them hurt, or how they couldn't be having with my nonsense. D'ya know
what they did? They came and cuddled me, and held me. All of them, David, and
Simon and Linnaea. They didn't run away from me, they didn't tell me to shut up
and get on with things. And it worked. I moved from frustrated to fine so much
more quickly than I would have if they'd told me off. And more than that, they
took the job that was too hard for me to do on my own, remembering the e-mail
address and password of Simon's xbox live account, and they solved it. I knew I
was being a jerk, I knew from that outside vision of myself that I was being
unpleasant and mean and just needed to shut up. But they saw that I was unhappy
and needed some loving. So, rather than telling her that what she's doing is
harming all around her, try and see that what she's doing is about being needy
and frustrated and not knowing how to cope.


In my miserable moment I wasn't hoping that someone would impose limits or
punishments on me, I just was frustrated. I wasn't working with some ulterior
motive, I just got overwhelmed. Don't assume that Kathleen is doing something in
a bid for structure or in a bid for rules. At best assume she needs more time
and more attention and more love. At worst assume she's hungry or tired or
thirsty and respond to those things as well as giving her more time and more
attention and more love. And honestly, if what you laugh out loud about is the
fact that what a psychiatrist is suggesting is puberty you believe has been
there always, maybe she's always neede more time and more attention and more
love. With a sibling one year her junior I imagine it's been hard for her to get
all the love and attention she's needed anyhow.


Schuyler








________________________________

Hi everyone,

I'm Laura with dh John, Kathleen (10), Kari (9), and Sean (7). We're going
through a really tough time right now and could use your sage advice.


We've always unschooled academically and want to go all the way with radical
unschooling. However, we seem to run up against the same pattern of problems
every time we get close to our ideal lifestyle.

Here's the cycle: First, we are living fairly happily with some rules but the
kids and I want them to have more freedom and live more democratically. Next, we
gradually let go of food guidelines, computer restrictions, bedtimes, etc. All
goes well for a period of weeks to a couple of months. Then, Kathleen starts
experimenting with extremes: not eating at all for a day or two, not sleeping
for 40 hours straight, drinking a gallon and a half of milk a day, or whatever.
She gets herself so sleep deprived or starved that she gets extremely irritable
and starts picking fights with her siblings and other relatives. If we try to
talk to her about how she's hurting people or making it difficult for us to get
to appointments, she gets really resentful and accuses us of threatening to take
away her freedoms. She says she can't trust us, maybe we don't really love her,
and generally acts like a stereotypical angry teen.

At this point, the whole family life goes on a downward spiral until Kathleen is
deliberately upsetting everyone, ruining family vacations, and we (parents)
resort to putting the old rules back in place. This cycle has been repeating
since Kathleen was a toddler! We try really hard to meet her needs, see things
from her perspective, find ways to protect the siblings, offer her a wide
variety of activities to try, and so on. It seems like the more we offer
understanding and acceptance, the worse Kathleen's behavior gets. She just keeps
ramping it up until we feel that we have to impose some structure to keep
everyone safe. Somehow that seems to be her ultimate goal.

Sometimes we see the same self-defeating pattern outside the family, too. For
example, when Kathleen makes a new friend, they have a great time for up to a
few weeks, then she decides the friend has some fatal flaw and cuts off the
relationship in a very hurtful way. One time she actually vandalized a public
place. After that episode, she did see a child psychiatrist for about 6 months.
The psychiatrist concluded that Kathleen doesn't have any mental illness, she's
just working through some difficult puberty issues. As far as I can tell,
they've been the same issues for the last 9 years, lol.

I could really use some suggestions about how to break the cycle we're in!
Kathleen is such a bright, funny kid. She is wonderful with small children and
has a real gift for training animals. I hate to see her hurting herself and the
people around her.

Thanks!

Laura

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

This was beautiful Schuyler.
Yesterday I ended up in the supermarket, after lunch time, with the kids that
had not had lunch
and at the check out Gigi had a meltdown. The cashier was a sweet heart and
since we were almost done
she quickly finished so I could get out with Gigi and get her attention and out
of the store.
As I was about to pay, an elderly gentleman approached me and , very close to
my ear, said to me 
that what she needed was a spanking.
I turned around, smiled, and I said gently:
"IF you were hungry and tired you would be having a meltdown too"
I could see that he was thinking about it, like it never occurred to him that
was why kids cried other than being brats.
I payed quickly, picked her up and kissed her and by the time we made to the
door she was smiling.
If I had tried to do that earlier she would have screamed louder. 
While that happened , MD, my 8 year old was my right hand and helped with
everything I needed to
get out of there fast and he kept very quiet to help he told me later.

 
Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

IN Mom

Thanks for all of the great advice and ideas. You've given me a lot to think about!

Merideth--Playing with extremes is pretty accepted in our family. All the kids (and adults) try staying up all night, eating weird foods, getting really into a new computer game for long periods of time. I like your idea of planning in advance for how to avoid/deal with the potential crankiness.

One issue is the PMS-type problems Kathleen has been facing for the last few months. We're getting her on some low-dose birth control pills so that she can have a more normal cycle instead of 2 or more weeks per month of having her period (does that suck, or what?).

Kathleen also recently got over the last of her food allergies. Naturally, she has been really enjoying all of the chocolate, peanut products, and dairy that she carefully avoided the last few years. However, I'm wondering whether the gallon of milk a day could still be affecting her sleep. We're talking with her about switching to buying low-fat milk since she finds whole milk irresistible.

Part of the problem is my reaction when I think one of the other kids is getting hurt, emotionally or physically. Given the following scenario (all recent botched by me), can you help me find constructive ways to respond in the moment?

Problem: Kathleen has been up all night and says she can't sleep. She is working on making a CD using YouTube and Audacity on our family computer and the other kids want a turn. The usual policy (chosen by consensus) in our house is 30-minute turns when someone else is waiting. Kathleen has her own laptop but prefers the desktop computer because the monitor is bigger and she won't let the others use her laptop. When the other kids ask for a turn, she insults them and/or physically scratches them/shoves them away. If I ask her how long until she's ready to give someone else a turn, she says, "4 hours."

I will try to give Kathleen lots more attention and provide more foods she likes. She is amazingly independent in lots of ways for her age, doing her own laundry, walking to stores on her own, cooking a lot of her own meals, typing up packing lists for trips, taking care of her pets...but maybe that leaves her feeling un-nurtured. We could make up a meal plan for the week in advance--maybe she would be more motivated to eat foods she requested.

Thanks again for the help--maybe we can get out of our rut this time =)

Laura

plaidpanties666

"IN Mom" <laura.mcdonald523@...> wrote:
>Given the following scenario (all recent botched by me), can you help me find constructive ways to respond in the moment?
*************

Sometimes "in the moment" all solutions look ugly! Whenever possible it helps to buy some time, any gentle way you can. Distract the other kids, somehow, commiserate that it sucks to wait when someone's been on the computer (or whatever) "forever", and make plans to re-assess the whole issue at a later time. "In the moment" isn't the time to try to talk or reason with someone who's over-tired, over-stressed, and/or hormonal - do You want to be "reasoned with" in those circumstances? I don't!

>>The usual policy (chosen by consensus) in our house is 30-minute turns when someone else is waiting.
***************

The thing about consensus is that not-working is the same as no consensus. The agreement has broken down. That's not inherently bad; like unschooling consensus operates under the assumption that there aren't any "permanent solutions". Everything is renegotiable and not-working means its time to renegotiate the deal.

What would Kathleen like to see happen when she wants the computer a lot longer than the 30-minute "turns" that y'all have been using? It probably feels really stressful for her to have to give up what she's doing once she's solidly working on a project - which is probably why you got her the laptop in the first place ;) Shared resources can create a sense of limitation, which can lead to hoarding - that's why unschoolers suggest "get another one" any time its possible. Can you get another computer? Alternately, another something else - other portable game or console or dvd player? Even having something like that on a "wish list" can help cool tempers in the moment. Its also worth asking Kathleen if she'll negotiate terms for use of her laptop while she's busy with the desk computer - what are her concerns and can they be met somehow, maybe by parental supervision of whoever wants to use the device?

>>She is amazingly independent in lots of ways for her age...but maybe that leaves her feeling un-nurtured.
***********

It can! I know that was something I ran into a lot as a kid - I was so capable that I didn't tend to let people know when I wanted things like affection.

Have you read anything about the Five Love Languages? Its a way of describing how people give and recieve affection - some people like words of love or compliments or gifts, while others like spending time together or doing favors. The thing is, if one person tends to prefer favors and the other words, it can be hard to communicate love, leading to questions like: Why do you keep saying "I love you" but don't take out the trash?

So it can help to notice what your dd Does to show affection for other people and look for ways to do something similar. Acting independently can be one of the ways she expresses love - she's doing you the favor of taking care of herself. So doing little favors for her might be a way to express care that's more meaningful than, say, snuggling (although everyone needs all kinds of love, too, so snuggling isn't a bad thing ;))

---Meredith

otherstar

From: IN Mom
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Help! 10 yo with self-defeating behavior...


>>>Kathleen has been up all night and says she can't sleep.<<<

Is it that she can't sleep or is it that she is up because that is the only time that she can get to herself? I know my oldest will get up really early in the morning sometimes so she can have unfettered access to everything without her sisters butting in. There have also been times that she couldn't sleep because she wanted to talk to me. With four kids, the oldest sometimes gets lost in the shuffle. On nights when she can't sleep, I try to get up with her and talk to her. My oldest loves it when I rub her feet or her back when she can't sleep. It helps her relax and it helps us reconnect.

>>>She is working on making a CD using YouTube and Audacity on our family computer and the other kids want a turn. The usual policy (chosen by consensus) in our house is 30-minute turns when someone else is waiting.<<<

My first reaction to 30 minute turns was "How can anything be accomplished in 30 minutes?" Youtube can sometimes be very slow when uploading. CD making can be very slow and time consuming and 30 minutes just doesn't seem like enough time. Perhaps you can suggest that the time for turns can be extended to an hour or so.

>>>Kathleen has her own laptop but prefers the desktop computer because the monitor is bigger and she won't let the others use her laptop.<<<

I know Meredith suggested getting another computer. If you can't afford that, perhaps you can just get a bigger monitor that you can hook to her laptop. Sometimes you can get the old CRT monitors really cheap because people are getting rid of them. Is there some way to negotiate the use of her laptop. What do the other kids want to do on the computer? Are they playing games, using software, or using the Internet? Are there other things that you can get to help them accomplish what they want so that Kathleen can get more time on the desktop?

>>>When the other kids ask for a turn, she insults them and/or physically scratches them/shoves them away. If I ask her how long until she's ready to give someone else a turn, she says, "4 hours."<<<

How are the other kids asking for a turn? Are they being ugly to deliberately get their sister in trouble? My children will sometimes try to deliberately do little stuff to get a reaction out their siblings. When the sibling reacts, I only see the reaction rather than what led up to it. I don't know if that is happening but it is something that I have to watch for so that I can be more balanced in my approach.

Would it be possible to negotiate 4 hour turns? When everyone is in a good place, perhaps you can sit down with all of the kids and discuss what each of them uses the computer for so that you can try to find alternatives through collective brainstorming.

>>>I will try to give Kathleen lots more attention and provide more foods she likes. She is amazingly independent in lots of ways for her age, doing her own laundry, walking to stores on her own, cooking a lot of her own meals, typing up packing lists for trips, taking care of her pets...but maybe that leaves her feeling un-nurtured. We could make up a meal plan for the week in advance--maybe she would be more motivated to eat foods she requested.<<<

We don't do meal plans but we try to take the kids with us to the store and let them pick things that they will eat. Before cooking dinner, I try to get some input as to what everyone is hungry for so that I can try to make sure that I cook something for everyone. Sometimes it is as simple as preparing an extra vegetable.

Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

amberleeb

We have a similar issue and aren't sure what to do. We actually did get another computer but that seems to have made things worse! :( The eldest wants to be on the computer 18-20 hrs at a time. Many times he is really cool and understanding about letting someone else use it, but he has this need lately to be on it all the time. So we built another computer that is really good and he still wants to be on all the time....lol It is making the other children feel like they want to do the same because he is/does. It is frustrating to feel unable to talk to him about it because he says it is his choice and we are trying to force him to do something else. So he clings to it even more. :( I am not sure what exactly is the reason for this. He watches movies, animae, uses photoshop and does everything on the computer. He has access to a TV and DVD player so he could watch those things on the TV instead of the computer (giving someone else time), but he doesn't "want" to. I know it is a control thing, (ie he wants to control the one computer 24/7) but I am having trouble discussing it with him, he immediately gets defensive. I just want everyone to feel they are getting the time they need to play games, check email, upload stuff, work on photoshop, etc. I really thought getting the 2nd computer would make it easier for everyone to share, but I am feeling the pinch of the higher electric bill and feeling grumpy and disrespected over just mentioning that someone else would like a chance to be online...Help!?! Do I need to do a calendar or something?????


>

otherstar

>>>We have a similar issue and aren't sure what to do. We actually did get another computer but that seems to have made things worse! :( The eldest wants to be on the computer 18-20 hrs at a time. Many times he is really cool and understanding about letting someone else use it, but he has this need lately to be on it all the time.<<<

How old are your kids? How many kids do you have? I have 4 kids (9, 6, 3, 18 months) and we have 3 computers. We have two desk tops that are set up at a table next to each other. We also have a lap top that is set up in a private little room off the kitchen. My oldest will sometimes be on the computer from the time she gets up until time to go to bed. If somebody wants to play on the computer without being interrupted, we suggest that they use the laptop in another room so that they can be out of sight out of mind. The living room computers are mine and my husband's and are referred to as Mom's computer and Dad's computer (we have always been a two computer family). The laptop is our family computer. My two oldest girls have their own Nintendo DS's too. Here lately, each of my 3 older girls have been wanting a computer to themselves so my husband and I have been finding other things to do so each of the girls can have unfettered time on the computer. My 3 year old will lose interest after a while so I will try to get the older ones to let her have a turn first. That way they can wait until she loses interest. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't.

We don't have any kind of computer use agreement because we try to evaluate each situation based on the circumstances. If the person on the computer is doing something that is really important to them, then I will try to help the non-user find something else to do that is fun. I have to be actively involved to make it successful. If I suggest that they do something on their own, it isn't nearly as successful as when I volunteer to do something WITH them. There have been times that I have stepped in and volunteered to do something cool only to have the person on the computer volunteer to give it up to go do something with me.

I work from home and have to have computer access to do my work. I try to share as much as I can. I have found that my kids want to hog something because they are afraid that if they give it up, they won't get it back. We try to make sure that everyone feels like their computer time is valued. My husband got an ipod so he could check his e-mail and FB without having to interrupt the girls. We try to make sure that each of the kids feel like they get enough computer time. While I was composing this, my 3 year old wanted to watch her My Little Pony videos on Youtube. I stopped and was trying to go to the website but by the time I got there, she had lost interest and is now playing with her big sisters who had been watching Youtube videos on the other computer. Now they are off watching TV and playing with their DSs. Whenever somebody else takes a turn, we try to minimize the window so that they can come back to right where they were before. If I am in the middle of doing my work, I will minimize my window and let the kids have a turn. My husband will ask the girls if they can minimize their window so he can do something quickly and give it right back.

Here is an interesting link on Sandra Dodd's site about Piaget and stages of development: http://sandradodd.com/piaget I have linked to it because somebody mentioned that their children agreed to 30 minute increments on the computer. Kids sometimes agree to stuff to get mom to shut up. This quote from the page sums it up, <Some parents will say, "I explained it and he said he understood." What probably happened was the child heard "blah blah blah blah, okay?" and said "Okay.">

Just some more ideas that have worked for us regarding computer use.

Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"amberleeb" <amberlee16@...> wrote:
>It is making the other children feel like they want to do the same because he is/does.
*****************

Are you offering plenty of other fun things for them? Are they missing his company? Or is he doing the most interesting thing in the house?

>>It is frustrating to feel unable to talk to him about it because he says it is his choice and we are trying to force him to do something else. So he clings to it even more. :( I am not sure what exactly is the reason for this.
*******************

He's telling you the reason - his Feeling is that you're trying to force him to do something he doesn't want to do. It doesn't matter if you don't think you're forcing him to do anything, if your impression is that you're saying "hey, when can I have a turn?" Its his reaction that's important. In his mind, perhaps, the purpose of the second computer was so that he could have all the time he wanted - from your description, that was how it seemed to me. He was on the computer all the time, so you got another computer - for him, at least in terms of usage. Now, from his perspective, you're going back on the deal - a deal you didn't realize you were making. Its a communication problem! You each had different ideas and expectations about what the second computer was "for" and didn't communicate those well.

>>I really thought getting the 2nd computer would make it easier for everyone to share
***************

To share the other computer? Or to share both? Drop the idea of sharing both for awhile. The new computer is his, everyone else shares everything else - heck, he's even being kind enough (from his perspective) to free up the tv and dvd player for other people to use!

Limited resources can be a challenge! One of the things that has helped our family is to target what people want each resource for. What do other people want to do on the computer? Are there things they could do with the dvd player? Or something like a console system or portable game (cheaper than a new computer)?

---Meredith

amberleeb

We were very clear as to what the new computer would be for and that we needed to share them between 4-5 people. He knew it wasn't "his" computer. Although we are working on fixing that. Hubby has been really against kids having computers in their rooms, but I am seeing a need for my eldest to have it there, even if it means we don't see him because he is in his room....I'm working on it. ;)

My son uses it to chat, youtube, watch netflix/movies and TV, photoshop and stuff like that. When he watches a movie he could watch it on the TV because we have it hooked up to do that, but he won't because he wants to control the computer. There is a TV and DVD player upstairs now, as well as the ones in the LR, so that if the kids want to watch something else they have that option. So we have been working to make sure there is more tech in the house. The more tech we get, the more arguments there have been....I think something is wrong with that. lol I am sure it will work out eventually, it usually does. I was just surprised that we were suddenly having more fights and squabbles than before.

The people using the computers tend to want to play interactive games (WOW, Kung Fu Panda, Whirled) that they can't play on the PS2 or Nintendo 64. Or use programs like photoshop, art rage, Stickz -- things like that.

Thanks Meredith for your help, I am discussing it with hubby even now. :)


>
> >>I really thought getting the 2nd computer would make it easier for everyone to share
> ***************
>
> To share the other computer? Or to share both? Drop the idea of sharing both for awhile. The new computer is his, everyone else shares everything else - heck, he's even being kind enough (from his perspective) to free up the tv and dvd player for other people to use!
>
> Limited resources can be a challenge! One of the things that has helped our family is to target what people want each resource for. What do other people want to do on the computer? Are there things they could do with the dvd player? Or something like a console system or portable game (cheaper than a new computer)?
>
> ---Meredith
>

Vidyut Kale

You could have been describing me in my teenage years. I grew up with very
gentle grandparents and life was fabulous. Grandfather was a musician,
mathematician, philosopher and incredible thinker. Grandmother was the most
loving soul I have met in my life and more my mother than my real mother. At
sixteen, moved to my parents home. I didn't get along with my father and two
years of solid rebellion followed. To be fair to them, I guess they had no
clue what to do with a grown up daughter suddenly entering their lives, and
they started seeing the cracks in the 'genius' they thought I was.

If I had to put a name to what was going on with me, I could call it feeling
judged. They had decided what I was, and if I was any different from their
imagination, something was wrong with me. I wasn't aware of it then, of
course. I went to great extents to provoke people. Somewhere, I wanted to be
accepted as I was, even if I was awful. I tried for a while playing the
genius and showcasing my 'failings' as eccentricity - after all, aren't most
geniuses supposed to be a little crazy? Didn't work. It still hurt, because
they didn't think the 'failings' were cool and I didn't see me as a genius.
It was like I was telling the world, "You keep finding things that are wrong
with me anyway, so why should I try to be any better? I fix one and you come
up with another". I saw myself in a world with so much to do and discover
and I used to get really upset when I was involved with something and it
didn't matter to the parents and they focused on something peripheral that
was 'wrong'. Like I was reading something about some intricate science
experiment (I just loved cool science stuff - not the genius brand
curriculums), and the mother would nag me for sitting so that the light
didn't fall well on the page or something or slouching over the book or
something. It was like they saw tiny niggling things that were problems -
for them, not me - and never really cared what my passion was. I used to
feel insulted and unloved that they interrupted me when I was engrossed with
something without even caring that they were interfering with my involvement
in something I enjoyed and found important.

This may not be so with Kathleen, it just came alive in my mind as I read
your post. I felt like they would always find that little something
inappropriate whatever I did and I guess I gave them reasons so I could
pretend to myself that I could win their approval, but didn't want it. I
guess a hug would have gotten more miracles out of me than the most
sensitive counselling but if by some error I got it, I'd have fought it. I
wouldn't have wanted to burst into needy tears and expose yet another
vulnerability.

Those wounds go deep. I still have issues if I perceive someone as judging
me. They may not even be doing it. All it takes to trigger me into those
distancing routines is for me to think someone is doing it. I've been
working with this for ages, but I still 'slip'.

Of course, everyone's life story is different, but having lived what I think
you are describing with Kathleen in terms of deliberately offensive
behaviour, I wanted to share that there are vulnerabilities and needs under
all that distancing. I think the more alone I felt, the more I pushed
everyone away. This is hindsight.

Vidyut


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"amberleeb" <amberlee16@...> wrote:
> So we have been working to make sure there is more tech in the house. The more tech we get, the more arguments there have been....I think something is wrong with that.
*****************

Kind of a "Pandora's box" feeling, isn't it? We've had that happen with all sorts of things - I think its natural for everyone to want "the new thing". Its also natural for people to respond emotionally to "a little more for everyone" as though the message was "Lots more for Me!" I do that, even when I know its not a really rational reaction.

---Meredith

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:25 AM, amberleeb wrote:

> The more tech we get, the more arguments there have been....I think
> something is wrong with that. lol

It could be there was a desire before but everyone knew there was a
limit to how much they could get so they stuffed it down. Now that
it's more free flowing, so are the needs they had stuffed down.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

amberleeb

It is difficult. I am trying, but today I went out and did some grocery shopping (as I tend to do early on payday Friday) and when I got home and got everything in (everyone else was asleep still--I thought)....I came up to my bedroom to find my oldest in my room on my computer.... :( I was a bit upset as no one was on either computer downstairs and he never went to bed last night...yet felt he should help himself to my room and computer....I am pretty upset right now and really lost as to what to do/say.

I don't have a problem letting them use this computer occasionally, when every other computer is being used, and they usually ask nicely. But our room is our room and this computer has work at home stuff on it....so I like to know when someone is going to use it. YK? I think I was most upset by this because it was in here put away and all the other computers were completely open....I just don't think that is very polite or respectful. I never go into his room and start touching or playing with anything, ever....I don't even clean in there.

To keep from taking my anger out on him I asked him to leave the room, which he did. I know he is all mad at me though.... :( It can be frustrating! I know I am more angry because that is how my family of origin treated me and anything that was supposedly mine....everyone else could use it even if I bought and paid for it. :( I don't want my family/kids to be like that. So there I am again.

Frustrated.....thanks for the help and encouraging words.
>
> Kind of a "Pandora's box" feeling, isn't it? We've had that happen with all sorts of things - I think its natural for everyone to want "the new thing". Its also natural for people to respond emotionally to "a little more for everyone" as though the message was "Lots more for Me!" I do that, even when I know its not a really rational reaction.
>
> ---Meredith
>

Faith Void

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 10:02 AM, amberleeb <amberlee16@...> wrote:

>
>
> It is difficult. I am trying, but today I went out and did some grocery
> shopping (as I tend to do early on payday Friday) and when I got home and
> got everything in (everyone else was asleep still--I thought)....I came up
> to my bedroom to find my oldest in my room on my computer.... :( I was a bit
> upset as no one was on either computer downstairs and he never went to bed
> last night...yet felt he should help himself to my room and computer....I am
> pretty upset right now and really lost as to what to do/say.
>

*** I am not sure what you did but I have learned to "Shut up" when I am
angry or upset. I take enough space to breath and relax. Then i go back when
I am clear and able to be open to LISTEN. Then I ask an open ended question.
Like "Honey, I see you were on the computer in my room, what's going on?"
Then I sit back breath and LISTEN. Its hard. Most of the time I find that
when I listen to my child's whole story it is reasonable and makes sense. I
empathize is that is necessary (like oh it was too hot downstairs or oh you
felt really scared being up so many hours and wanted to be nearer to people)
If I still feel like my boundary was crossed. I state it as simply as
possible. Like, "Honey, I feel frustrated when I come home and find you in
my room. I have so little space that I call my very own I don't always want
to share it. Would you be willing to ask me first?"
________________________________________________________________________

>
> I don't have a problem letting them use this computer occasionally, when
> every other computer is being used, and they usually ask nicely. But our
> room is our room and this computer has work at home stuff on it....so I like
> to know when someone is going to use it. YK? I think I was most upset by
> this because it was in here put away and all the other computers were
> completely open....I just don't think that is very polite or respectful. I
> never go into his room and start touching or playing with anything,
> ever....I don't even clean in there.
>

*** I can see you feeling violated. You wish your child would have asked to
use your stuff or chose to use community computers rather than a work
computer. I would STOP. When I start to feel "disrespected" it is usually
old tapes playing in my head. I try to think about where it is really coming
from. He had a need. This need conflicted with a preference of yours. It
likely wasn't a personal affront to you.

I am going to assume this child is older, possibly a teen. I am sorry that I
can't remember. Are you giving this child enough one on one attention? I
know that sometimes I short change my oldest when the littles are especially
needed. One of the ways she shows her unmet needs is by "invading" my space
and crossing my boundaries. I give her attention, angry attention but she'll
take it if there is a deficit. I have to be really careful, especially
during stressful times.
_________________________________________________________________________

>
> To keep from taking my anger out on him I asked him to leave the room,
> which he did. I know he is all mad at me though.... :( It can be
> frustrating! I know I am more angry because that is how my family of origin
> treated me and anything that was supposedly mine....everyone else could use
> it even if I bought and paid for it. :( I don't want my family/kids to be
> like that. So there I am again.
>

*** I am hearing a lot of old pain in this statement. I don't actually
understand it. It is confusing to me. Are you saying that your family of
origin used your stuff without your consent? If that's the case then it is
old hurt rather than what your child did. It is really awesome that you
didn't take it out on him. It wasn't his. Can you find a way to seperate him
from what they did? A start might be to tell him how they treated you and
how you felt. Explain that you know he wasn't trying to be hurtful to you.
Apologize for hurting him if he felt pain. Ask him how you both might do
things different next time.
______________________________________________________________________

> Best Wishes,
> Faith
> >
>
> __
>

--
www.bearthmama.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Faith Void

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:52 AM, amberleeb <amberlee16@...> wrote:

>
>
> We have a similar issue and aren't sure what to do. We actually did get
> another computer but that seems to have made things worse! :( The eldest
> wants to be on the computer 18-20 hrs at a time. Many times he is really
> cool and understanding about letting someone else use it, but he has this
> need lately to be on it all the time. So we built another computer that is
> really good and he still wants to be on all the time....lol It is making the
> other children feel like they want to do the same because he is/does. It is
> frustrating to feel unable to talk to him about it because he says it is his
> choice and we are trying to force him to do something else. So he clings to
> it even more.
>

*** I have a child that perceives control where there is none. I have
learned (ok I am still learning ) to tread lightly. I have back way up but
not backed out. I am still loving, gentle and supportive.

Does this child have his own room? Can he get one? Can he get a computer of
his own that has all the things he needs, internet, etc.?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> :( I am not sure what exactly is the reason for this. He watches movies,
> animae, uses photoshop and does everything on the computer. He has access to
> a TV and DVD player so he could watch those things on the TV instead of the
> computer (giving someone else time), but he doesn't "want" to.
>

*** My oldest prefers her computer for everything. She is a writer and on it
for hours per day. She also uses it for photos, internet surfing, movie
watching etc.
__________________________________________________________

> I know it is a control thing, (ie he wants to control the one computer
> 24/7) but I am having trouble discussing it with him, he immediately gets
> defensive.
>

*** I would re-consider what you "know". It sounds very dismissive to say
"its a control thing".

If he is getting defensive then its a cue for you to step back and
re-evaluate what and how you are talking to him. It is possible that its
just him in a mood but it is better to be sure. imo
_______________________________________________________________

> I just want everyone to feel they are getting the time they need to play
> games, check email, upload stuff, work on photoshop, etc. I really thought
> getting the 2nd computer would make it easier for everyone to share, but I
> am feeling the pinch of the higher electric bill and feeling grumpy and
> disrespected over just mentioning that someone else would like a chance to
> be online...Help!?! Do I need to do a calendar or something?????
>

*** Our electric bill didn't go up significantly when we added another
computer, if yours did you may want to look into that. We take care to not
only turn things off but to unplug many things when not in use. That may
help a bit.

Are all the computers internet accessible? If not it is fairly cheap to get
a modem that can support multiple computers. My dh is a graphic
designer/programed so internet is a "must". We have ethernet cables ($2
used from game stop) and an inexpensive wireless reciever ($25 on sale at
best buy new). Old computers that are decent for internet surfing etc can be
found on craigslist and such for small amounts (you can save) Ds might just
need to have his own computer in his own room.

Faith

>
> _
>
www.bearthmama.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 23, 2010, at 10:02 AM, amberleeb wrote:

> I came up to my bedroom to find my oldest in my room on my
> computer.... :( I was a bit upset as no one was on either computer
> downstairs and he never went to bed last night...yet felt he should
> help himself to my room and computer....I am pretty upset right now
> and really lost as to what to do/say.

Sounds like a control issue and it makes you defensive.

Which is a joke to make a point.

It really helps for unschooling and mindful parenting to assume kids
are doing the best they can. There were important to him needs that
your computer met. Maybe he needed the quiet of your room to be away
from everyone.

I'm not saying that makes his decision okay. But if you head down the
route of he's being mean, disrespectful, uncaring you'll drive a wedge
further between you. If someone yells at you for something you had
good reasons for, do you feel like embracing them and wanting to do
better for them because you love them? Or, if you do do better next
time, is it because you fear or dread the anger? Is that what you want
your son to feel?

Sit him down and make it very very plain that he needs to ask before
he uses your computer. Not with anger, but because you want to help
him do better. Then ask him why he used it so you can help him come up
with better choices for next time. He might not be able to articulate
it. He might be afraid to articulate his reason. (Be mindful of how
you respond. If you respond in a way that suggests the truth is not
the right answer, he will be motivated to hide the truth.)


> I just don't think that is very polite or respectful. I never go
> into his room and start touching or playing with anything, ever....I
> don't even clean in there.

Kids feel and learn politeness and respect more from what we do rather
than what we don't do. If he's trampling over your feelings, either he
doesn't get how important it is to you -- and some kids develop
empathy later than others -- or *he* feels there are enough times he
feels disrespected that it feels okay to step on your needs to meet his.

> It is making the other children feel like they want to do the same
> because he is/does. It is frustrating to feel unable to talk to him
> about it because he says it is his choice and we are trying to force
> him to do something else. So he clings to it even more


Having personal space is more important to some people than others.
It's part of their personality. Just like being an introvert. Or
loving cherry pie for your birthday over any cake ever made. On my
computer, I get to decide the background and the settings. I can leave
windows and projects open and they'll be just as I left them when I
return. If you have your own space you can decorate it with Renoir,
have classical music playing. If other people invade, there will be
empty Coke cans tossed about, you'll find a Renoir stashed behind the
couch and a World Cup poster up. The computer wasn't his to begin
with. It is more like a play room where everyone's things are. But to
him having his own private corner of the world that he can keep just
so might be very very important to him.

Joyce

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Sorry coming in late here -- ignore if this has already been asked and answered -- but is this the "good" computer? We have several and our game-playing up-all-night teen definitely prefers one over the others because it is newer and faster. Just wondering.

Nance

--- In [email protected], "amberleeb" <amberlee16@...> wrote:
>
> It is difficult. I am trying, but today I went out and did some grocery shopping (as I tend to do early on payday Friday) and when I got home and got everything in (everyone else was asleep still--I thought)....I came up to my bedroom to find my oldest in my room on my computer.... :( I was a bit upset as no one was on either computer downstairs and he never went to bed last night...yet felt he should help himself to my room and computer....I am pretty upset right now and really lost as to what to do/say.
>

amberleeb

Thanks Faith...that is what I did, asked him nicely to go and then sat here and vented....lol I am pretty good at compartmentalizing my feelings so I don't let them overflow or yell and scream at those who are just *there*. I love them so much, but some days certain things just really get to me.

I knew it wasn't personal against me, which is why I didn't say anything else. I knew he couldn't really ask when I am not there. He wasn't sure why he chose to go to my room rather than use the one downstairs.

I know a lot of this is "old pain", which is coming up now that he is a teen. I am just learning about these things and considering I think I have done really well with kids so far. I know I can do better which is why I am in here still. ;) I know it is my family of origin that makes me feel this now, old tapes, my mom siding with my siblings over my clothes, records, books, shoes, etc. I do tell my children about those things. They are always shocked to hear about how my family growing up was (although they had unfortunate opportunity to see some of it first hand) and my kids are the main reason I don't have contact with my mom and one sister anymore. My kids would ask why I let them be so mean to me....even they could see it wouldn't change no matter how much I wanted it to or how hard I tried...then we found complete unschooling, and we have all been better for it. I am still working on me and the tapes.

I will talk with my eldest about how it felt yesterday and why I was upset. I am sure it will help him see where I was and why I might have been upset by it.

My family of origin didn't have much money and I started working at age 8 to buy my own shoes and a few things I needed or wanted. My siblings would take those things and use them or break them and my mom would always tell me that I *had* to share no matter what it was. So if a sister wanted to wear a special shirt I bought and paid for they could and I couldn't say/do anything about it. If they listened to a 45 (yes dating myself a bit now) and scratched or broke it "oh well". I had to make more money to get a new one. I wasn't allowed to do that to my siblings though. I had to work to buy shoes and pay for a physical to play basketball...my siblings could play whatever sports they wanted...and get music lessons, etc. I couldn't unless I paid for it. It was bizarre in my mind.

After he wakes up today we will talk. He is usually so cool about that, so I am not worried about it. I just am glad I could hold my tongue when all I could hear in my head were horrible things that would have been said to me...not to mention the beating for being in my parents room to begin with! *sigh*

Hugs to all, and thanks again!

[email protected]

I hope you're not planning on unloading all of this onto him. It's not his problem. Have you gotten therapy about all of this?

Nance



--- In [email protected], "amberleeb" <amberlee16@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Faith...that is what I did, asked him nicely to go and then sat here and vented....lol I am pretty good at compartmentalizing my feelings so I don't let them overflow or yell and scream at those who are just *there*. I love them so much, but some days certain things just really get to me.
>
> I knew it wasn't personal against me, which is why I didn't say anything else. I knew he couldn't really ask when I am not there. He wasn't sure why he chose to go to my room rather than use the one downstairs.
>
> I know a lot of this is "old pain", which is coming up now that he is a teen. I am just learning about these things and considering I think I have done really well with kids so far. I know I can do better which is why I am in here still. ;) I know it is my family of origin that makes me feel this now, old tapes, my mom siding with my siblings over my clothes, records, books, shoes, etc. I do tell my children about those things. They are always shocked to hear about how my family growing up was (although they had unfortunate opportunity to see some of it first hand) and my kids are the main reason I don't have contact with my mom and one sister anymore. My kids would ask why I let them be so mean to me....even they could see it wouldn't change no matter how much I wanted it to or how hard I tried...then we found complete unschooling, and we have all been better for it. I am still working on me and the tapes.
>
> I will talk with my eldest about how it felt yesterday and why I was upset. I am sure it will help him see where I was and why I might have been upset by it.
>
> My family of origin didn't have much money and I started working at age 8 to buy my own shoes and a few things I needed or wanted. My siblings would take those things and use them or break them and my mom would always tell me that I *had* to share no matter what it was. So if a sister wanted to wear a special shirt I bought and paid for they could and I couldn't say/do anything about it. If they listened to a 45 (yes dating myself a bit now) and scratched or broke it "oh well". I had to make more money to get a new one. I wasn't allowed to do that to my siblings though. I had to work to buy shoes and pay for a physical to play basketball...my siblings could play whatever sports they wanted...and get music lessons, etc. I couldn't unless I paid for it. It was bizarre in my mind.
>
> After he wakes up today we will talk. He is usually so cool about that, so I am not worried about it. I just am glad I could hold my tongue when all I could hear in my head were horrible things that would have been said to me...not to mention the beating for being in my parents room to begin with! *sigh*
>
> Hugs to all, and thanks again!
>

amberleeb

working on it, just like everything else....I don't have a licensed therapist...but I am working with someone atm....tks

--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...> wrote:
>
> I hope you're not planning on unloading all of this onto him. It's not his problem. Have you gotten therapy about all of this?
>
> Nance
>