Intro and ???Manners
Katie
Hi, My name is Katie and I am a stay at home mama to Mabel who is 7
months. We are fully an AP family. We live in Denver, Colorado.
(if anyone else is close by, :o)) Mabel is very active and started
crawling backwards at 5 months and forward at 6. Sounds like Emma.
I am already seeing her start to stay up later and later cause she
wants to practice standing up. I am glad I am here to learn about
how to accept these challenges as they arise. I am in the process
of figuring out whether I have what it takes to homeschool. This
whole philosophy of unschooling is very new to me. It sounds very
interesting and effective. I have to constantly remind myself of my
own reactions to being forced to do things and how that has created
a resistance to this day. I am having a hard time grasping how you
raise your kids into polite, respectful adults without any control.
My question is... how would you teach them to say please and thank
you? Or to clear their plate and help out when a guest at someone's
home? How do you teach them to help around the house? Will they
naturally wish to do these things? I know kids are eager to
participate and have a huge amount of desire to do nice things on
their own, so maybe that is the idea. It's just so vastly different
than our entire society has been trained to think. I'd like to know
how you give them structure in this type of environment. I know I
needed structure growing up. I needed daily routines and rituals.
I loved that we ate dinner together at almost the same time every
night. I loved that my dad tucked me into bed and said the same
prayers to me. I think stability is important too. I'm wondering
how you set all this up while still letting your children be free.
Are there any family rules? Any rules at all? For example, do you
let your kid go out of the house in the snow without a coat or
sweater just cause they feel like it?
I really do think this sounds like an awesome way to parent and am
so eager to learn more. Thanks in advance for taking the time to
explain it to me.
Warmly,
Katie
months. We are fully an AP family. We live in Denver, Colorado.
(if anyone else is close by, :o)) Mabel is very active and started
crawling backwards at 5 months and forward at 6. Sounds like Emma.
I am already seeing her start to stay up later and later cause she
wants to practice standing up. I am glad I am here to learn about
how to accept these challenges as they arise. I am in the process
of figuring out whether I have what it takes to homeschool. This
whole philosophy of unschooling is very new to me. It sounds very
interesting and effective. I have to constantly remind myself of my
own reactions to being forced to do things and how that has created
a resistance to this day. I am having a hard time grasping how you
raise your kids into polite, respectful adults without any control.
My question is... how would you teach them to say please and thank
you? Or to clear their plate and help out when a guest at someone's
home? How do you teach them to help around the house? Will they
naturally wish to do these things? I know kids are eager to
participate and have a huge amount of desire to do nice things on
their own, so maybe that is the idea. It's just so vastly different
than our entire society has been trained to think. I'd like to know
how you give them structure in this type of environment. I know I
needed structure growing up. I needed daily routines and rituals.
I loved that we ate dinner together at almost the same time every
night. I loved that my dad tucked me into bed and said the same
prayers to me. I think stability is important too. I'm wondering
how you set all this up while still letting your children be free.
Are there any family rules? Any rules at all? For example, do you
let your kid go out of the house in the snow without a coat or
sweater just cause they feel like it?
I really do think this sounds like an awesome way to parent and am
so eager to learn more. Thanks in advance for taking the time to
explain it to me.
Warmly,
Katie
Anne
Hi, Katie!
Nice to *meet* you ... I have four children -- Jessica is married to a soldier, a junior at Baylor and 21, Michael 18, David 15, Robert 13.
The BEST way to teach them anything, especially at younger ages, was to model the behaviors I wanted -- and very actively encouraging them to do the same! My kids were assuredly not the best behaved at home, but I always heard from others -- whether the kids were guests at another home, or interacting at volunteer events, or otherwise in public setting -- how well-mannered, polite and helpful they were.
Living where I do -- Waco -- I struggle daiy with *adult* attitudes that kids are not worth respect -- and have, in fact, had some awesome battles with one administrator in particular, and a few teachers, over treating kids as they, the teachers, expect to be treated -- with respect! And no, they don't need to say *ma'am* and *sir* to be respectful to adults, not by a long shot, and I refuse to make them! Which does little to endear me to some folks, but ... when my kids meet MY expectations, and I hear so much good feedback, I know I'm doing the right thing.
As for learning chores, that's something else I modelled -- we did them together at first, and then I'd ask them to chose from a short list ... and the key I think is not being too fussy over perfection! They will do their best, and that improves with time and practice, and I would always be there to help if a chore got too overwhelming, so they learned that sometimes things just need to be done, but we can work together to accomplish a task. We also swap chores, too -- even today -- so no one gets stuck with a *nasty* one all the time, and I even let them negotiate with each other. My daughter despised doing the kitchen floor, so she's often trade with one of her brothers, or would even pay one of them! As long as they both agreed, no problem.
Their "structure" is the security and love you provide -- knowing you are there, and you love them, and that you are interested in them. That's all it's taken in our house, and I am SO proud of how mine are turning out. Of course, there ARE rules, but where possible, I look for the *yes* rather than the *no* in a given situation ... for example, a kid who refused to get dressed for kindergarten ... well, when told he HAD to go, he chose to go in his pj's ... no problem for me, but HE didn't like being the center of attention that day, and it didn't happen again.
You KNOW what's best for your child -- trust your instincts. And ask for help ... something important to learn and do -- it's never wrong to ask for feedback or suggestions, as long as you treat that info as such, and use what is helpful.
Best to you and yours,
Anne
~ Not all who wander are lost .... ~
Well-behaved women rarely make history.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--From Hamlet (I, v, 166-167)
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nice to *meet* you ... I have four children -- Jessica is married to a soldier, a junior at Baylor and 21, Michael 18, David 15, Robert 13.
The BEST way to teach them anything, especially at younger ages, was to model the behaviors I wanted -- and very actively encouraging them to do the same! My kids were assuredly not the best behaved at home, but I always heard from others -- whether the kids were guests at another home, or interacting at volunteer events, or otherwise in public setting -- how well-mannered, polite and helpful they were.
Living where I do -- Waco -- I struggle daiy with *adult* attitudes that kids are not worth respect -- and have, in fact, had some awesome battles with one administrator in particular, and a few teachers, over treating kids as they, the teachers, expect to be treated -- with respect! And no, they don't need to say *ma'am* and *sir* to be respectful to adults, not by a long shot, and I refuse to make them! Which does little to endear me to some folks, but ... when my kids meet MY expectations, and I hear so much good feedback, I know I'm doing the right thing.
As for learning chores, that's something else I modelled -- we did them together at first, and then I'd ask them to chose from a short list ... and the key I think is not being too fussy over perfection! They will do their best, and that improves with time and practice, and I would always be there to help if a chore got too overwhelming, so they learned that sometimes things just need to be done, but we can work together to accomplish a task. We also swap chores, too -- even today -- so no one gets stuck with a *nasty* one all the time, and I even let them negotiate with each other. My daughter despised doing the kitchen floor, so she's often trade with one of her brothers, or would even pay one of them! As long as they both agreed, no problem.
Their "structure" is the security and love you provide -- knowing you are there, and you love them, and that you are interested in them. That's all it's taken in our house, and I am SO proud of how mine are turning out. Of course, there ARE rules, but where possible, I look for the *yes* rather than the *no* in a given situation ... for example, a kid who refused to get dressed for kindergarten ... well, when told he HAD to go, he chose to go in his pj's ... no problem for me, but HE didn't like being the center of attention that day, and it didn't happen again.
You KNOW what's best for your child -- trust your instincts. And ask for help ... something important to learn and do -- it's never wrong to ask for feedback or suggestions, as long as you treat that info as such, and use what is helpful.
Best to you and yours,
Anne
~ Not all who wander are lost .... ~
Well-behaved women rarely make history.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--From Hamlet (I, v, 166-167)
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Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
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Vijay Berry Owens
Hi Katie. Welcome. I'm fairly new here too.
I do wish I had all the answers, but all I can share is what I plan to
do, and what I hope the results will be, because my DD is only 15 months
old.
Manners are very important to me. It's important to me that my daughter
treat people respectfully and politely. But I do not like the ways in
which other families I know teach manners. Too coercive and punitive for
my taste. I feel that if DD sees that DH and I always say please and
thank you to each other, that she will just "absorb" that this is the
way things are done.
I think my FIL's way of teaching her manners is confusing because when
he gives her something he coaches her to say thank you. So why is HE
saying thank you when he is the one giving her something? I would much
rather he just give her things and not say anything. If she were to give
HIM something, then it would make sense for him to say thank you. KWIM?
She already says, "TUH!" loudly and happily sometimes when I give her
something that she wants. Maybe she's trying to say thank you already?
Wishful thinking on my part? <g>
DD is very interested already in sharing and helping. I just lucked out.
She is VERY young for exhibiting these sorts of behavior and I cannot
take any credit for it. It's just how she is. If I open the refrigerator
or dishwasher she is over there like a shot to help me close them up
again. After she has helped me push them closed I always thank her. She
LOVES to help, and I am going to try to nurture that in her. Kids are
like dogs in some ways (please don't flame me, hear me out!) in that
they love to have a job, and all they need as a reward IMO is to be told
that they did a good job, they don't need food or a toy as a reward.
Just my opinion.
If she is eating something, she will occasionally feed me some.
Sometimes this means that she is full and doesn't want to eat any more,
but not always. I always eat whatever it is (goldfish cracker, grape,
what have you) and say thank you. Or if I REALLY don't want to eat it,
lol, I still take it from her and thank her.
As far as helping goes, I can't stand the way some parents (my own
included) do EVERYTHING for their child, like cooking, laundry,
cleaning, etc. and then at 18 they shove them out into the world and
expect them to know what to do. I would much rather have been included
in those activities when I was younger than have to figure it out in
college, lol. I bet my mom could have used the help too, but she just
couldn't get over that initial stage where I wasn't doing things right
yet. Short fuse I guess.
I plan to let DD make messes and do the best she can without making a
big deal about it. She'll learn by doing instead of being told, "You're
not doing it right, give it to me, I'll do it."
So it's still an experiment for us, we'll keep everyone posted on how it
goes. I'm sure you'll get some great advice from moms of older kids here.
Best,
-Vijay Berry Owens
SAHM to Charlotte, 15 months
I do wish I had all the answers, but all I can share is what I plan to
do, and what I hope the results will be, because my DD is only 15 months
old.
Manners are very important to me. It's important to me that my daughter
treat people respectfully and politely. But I do not like the ways in
which other families I know teach manners. Too coercive and punitive for
my taste. I feel that if DD sees that DH and I always say please and
thank you to each other, that she will just "absorb" that this is the
way things are done.
I think my FIL's way of teaching her manners is confusing because when
he gives her something he coaches her to say thank you. So why is HE
saying thank you when he is the one giving her something? I would much
rather he just give her things and not say anything. If she were to give
HIM something, then it would make sense for him to say thank you. KWIM?
She already says, "TUH!" loudly and happily sometimes when I give her
something that she wants. Maybe she's trying to say thank you already?
Wishful thinking on my part? <g>
DD is very interested already in sharing and helping. I just lucked out.
She is VERY young for exhibiting these sorts of behavior and I cannot
take any credit for it. It's just how she is. If I open the refrigerator
or dishwasher she is over there like a shot to help me close them up
again. After she has helped me push them closed I always thank her. She
LOVES to help, and I am going to try to nurture that in her. Kids are
like dogs in some ways (please don't flame me, hear me out!) in that
they love to have a job, and all they need as a reward IMO is to be told
that they did a good job, they don't need food or a toy as a reward.
Just my opinion.
If she is eating something, she will occasionally feed me some.
Sometimes this means that she is full and doesn't want to eat any more,
but not always. I always eat whatever it is (goldfish cracker, grape,
what have you) and say thank you. Or if I REALLY don't want to eat it,
lol, I still take it from her and thank her.
As far as helping goes, I can't stand the way some parents (my own
included) do EVERYTHING for their child, like cooking, laundry,
cleaning, etc. and then at 18 they shove them out into the world and
expect them to know what to do. I would much rather have been included
in those activities when I was younger than have to figure it out in
college, lol. I bet my mom could have used the help too, but she just
couldn't get over that initial stage where I wasn't doing things right
yet. Short fuse I guess.
I plan to let DD make messes and do the best she can without making a
big deal about it. She'll learn by doing instead of being told, "You're
not doing it right, give it to me, I'll do it."
So it's still an experiment for us, we'll keep everyone posted on how it
goes. I'm sure you'll get some great advice from moms of older kids here.
Best,
-Vijay Berry Owens
SAHM to Charlotte, 15 months
On Monday, August 23, 2004, at 11:25 AM, Katie wrote:
> Hi, My name is Katie and I am a stay at home mama to Mabel who is 7
> months.
> My question is... how would you teach them to say please and thank
> you? Or to clear their plate and help out when a guest at someone's
> home? How do you teach them to help around the house?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Syndi
Hi Katie! An answer to one of your questions:
For example, do you
think for herself, and she is going to think that she CAN go out in
the snow without her coat! This usually happens around the age of 2
<g>
Anyway, you could handle the situation with, no, you HAVE to wear a
coat and your daughter is going to think, but i'm a big girl now(cuz
she's 2!) and I DON'T HAVE to wear a coat! Or, you could let her
know its snowing and very cold and that it would be a good idea to
wear one,that you are wearing one to keep warm and be comfortable and
safe, and let her decide. This is, of course, in hopes that she goes
out doors (only temporary, I don't mean it to come across as letting
her play for an hour without one! ) anyway, in hopes that she goes
out and feels the cold air and thinks to herself, I need a coat. Of
course it might not ever go as easy as it is said, but you get the
idea? Kinda like defusing the power struggle before it even starts.
She'll learn that she can think for herself which will just spill
over into all the other aspects of her life!
As for manners. My boys, 6 and 11, have been unschooled now for
one year. They were in public school before this. And when they
were in school, there was stress. When we went to the grocery store
together, there was MAJOR stress. Now, things are SO much more
relaxed, and at the grocery store, they get complimented on being
such good helpers or for helping me so much! And to think i'm not
even carrying a switch thru the store with me making them be that
way, thats just the way they are!!!! They are being raised around
adults with manners instead of a room full of kids that may or may
not have manners. They get treated with respect, which in turn has
taught them to treat mom and dad and others with respect. It is
absolutly wonderful! We have no rules here, I don't think. We
definatly have no set sceduale, but we do watch movies every saturday
night with each other with lots of popcorn, and we do read every
single night before bed, becuz thats what they want to do. I think
and I know I've read on Sandra's writings that stress can really
cause alot of problems in kids. So I just try to keep their life as
stress free for now as possible.
Syndi---I was reading some pages of sandras today that i had never
found before, i'll get them and post asap. You'll really enjoy them
I think and it will help put all your questions into perspective!
(just in case i didnt ;)
For example, do you
> let your kid go out of the house in the snow without a coat orThere is going to be some point in Mabels life when she is going to
> sweater just cause they feel like it?
think for herself, and she is going to think that she CAN go out in
the snow without her coat! This usually happens around the age of 2
<g>
Anyway, you could handle the situation with, no, you HAVE to wear a
coat and your daughter is going to think, but i'm a big girl now(cuz
she's 2!) and I DON'T HAVE to wear a coat! Or, you could let her
know its snowing and very cold and that it would be a good idea to
wear one,that you are wearing one to keep warm and be comfortable and
safe, and let her decide. This is, of course, in hopes that she goes
out doors (only temporary, I don't mean it to come across as letting
her play for an hour without one! ) anyway, in hopes that she goes
out and feels the cold air and thinks to herself, I need a coat. Of
course it might not ever go as easy as it is said, but you get the
idea? Kinda like defusing the power struggle before it even starts.
She'll learn that she can think for herself which will just spill
over into all the other aspects of her life!
As for manners. My boys, 6 and 11, have been unschooled now for
one year. They were in public school before this. And when they
were in school, there was stress. When we went to the grocery store
together, there was MAJOR stress. Now, things are SO much more
relaxed, and at the grocery store, they get complimented on being
such good helpers or for helping me so much! And to think i'm not
even carrying a switch thru the store with me making them be that
way, thats just the way they are!!!! They are being raised around
adults with manners instead of a room full of kids that may or may
not have manners. They get treated with respect, which in turn has
taught them to treat mom and dad and others with respect. It is
absolutly wonderful! We have no rules here, I don't think. We
definatly have no set sceduale, but we do watch movies every saturday
night with each other with lots of popcorn, and we do read every
single night before bed, becuz thats what they want to do. I think
and I know I've read on Sandra's writings that stress can really
cause alot of problems in kids. So I just try to keep their life as
stress free for now as possible.
Syndi---I was reading some pages of sandras today that i had never
found before, i'll get them and post asap. You'll really enjoy them
I think and it will help put all your questions into perspective!
(just in case i didnt ;)
heather mclean
Hi Katie,
< For example, do you let your kid go out of the house
in the snow without a coat or sweater just cause they
feel like it?>
Well. this doesn't come up too often since we live in
Tucson Arizona LOL, but we did go play in the snow
while on vacation when my dd, Sierra, was younger.
Maybe she was 3? She played in the snow without
shoes. My parents (as usual) were horrified. I
cringed, thinking about how I would feel in the snow
without shoes. But Sierra had a blast.
She does occasionally wear shoes now. But is barefoot
most of the time. Yes, even in the desert! Often at
the park, other kids want to take off their shoes when
they see her barefoot, but the parents usually say NO
- it's too hot, you'll step on a thorn, glass, ant,
snake, ...[fill in the blank]. It helped me to find a
website encouraging barefoot children -
http://www.unshod.org/pfbc/
heather
tucson
< For example, do you let your kid go out of the house
in the snow without a coat or sweater just cause they
feel like it?>
Well. this doesn't come up too often since we live in
Tucson Arizona LOL, but we did go play in the snow
while on vacation when my dd, Sierra, was younger.
Maybe she was 3? She played in the snow without
shoes. My parents (as usual) were horrified. I
cringed, thinking about how I would feel in the snow
without shoes. But Sierra had a blast.
She does occasionally wear shoes now. But is barefoot
most of the time. Yes, even in the desert! Often at
the park, other kids want to take off their shoes when
they see her barefoot, but the parents usually say NO
- it's too hot, you'll step on a thorn, glass, ant,
snake, ...[fill in the blank]. It helped me to find a
website encouraging barefoot children -
http://www.unshod.org/pfbc/
heather
tucson
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi Katie,
Some here might be chuckling at me jumping in with "advice" (although I
would hesitate to call it that) since I am also new to this, but here is my
take:
The biggest challenge for me is to delete everything I was told by my
parents about what my abilities were as a child. Because they have coloured
my belief in myself as an adult and my beliefs in my kids (I can say kids
now as I am less than 2 months from having the second:-)). So I started (and
still do) by questioning every single "no" I wanted to say to my daughter. I
was trying to find the source and motivation for that answer. Once I know
that then it helps me to know if my answer is respectful (would it feel that
way to me or not) and will it have the desired effect. Now I know my
daughter and she like to do opposite of what ever I tell her, and has a hard
time distinguishing between suggestions and orders, so it has been a bit of
work that is for sure. But that was my start. I totally believe that you get
what you give in this world, especially with kids. And so if you act
respectful you will get respect (maybe not in that minute, but hey then it
didn't take me a minute to learn it either). And I see it. When I am tired
and short and impatient and snap at my daughter that is exactly what I get
back and then for some reason I find *her* tone of voice to be less than
respectful. What about mine?
Two examples that come to mind: My dh is really having a hard time with our
dd interrupting us when we are talking. I swear she has some sort of beacon
on that says "oh they are talking, now I have to interrupt", even though she
actually often doesn't have anything to say. What I noticed though, is how
often HE interrupts her! He thinks she is done, or has gone on for too long,
or is not listening or what ever and just starts talking over her. Well
where did she learn this? Today I told him to have faith she will learn this
and he said "maybe!" and I said "yup you are right, you never learned it so
maybe she won't either". So I can see that I have to start doing the same
with both of them and setting the example and remind them both to not
interrupt. The other is my SIL who complains all the time that her two boys
don't respect her but she never shows them any respect and she gets right
back what she gives. She thinks this is some hookey new age parenting and
that she should get respect just because she is the parent, I say she is in
for a rude awakening:-)
On to the other things in your post:
Please and thank you. My dd, is the most polite kid I know. and we have
never forced it. We remind sometimes, although I don't even like doing that,
but she uses please and thank you a lot. Why? Because we modeled it to her.
My dh always thanks me for dinner and then gets up and cleans up afterwards.
So she thanks me for dinner each night now too.
By clear their plate, I think you mean moving it to the sink? Well I ask her
to bring me her plate. She does sometimes. she doesn't others times. The
times she does I thank her for her help the times she doesn't I go get it
and that is it.
She loves housecleaning (don't ask me where she gets this from) but I find
her in her little apron with her duster in the living room tsk tsking
because it is dusty. LOL. so I follow her lead and help HER do the cleaning
that day. We plan days when we are going to do it. We have cleaners in once
a month or so, she grabs her tools and wonders around the house helping them
out. Some kids want to, I bet some don't. Not sure that forcing them will
cause them to be cleaner/tidier people when they live on their own. They
will be how they be and then when they find the motivator to change they
will. But motivation has to come from and internal source, not external.
(wow my college diploma just came in handy!)
Oh the coat thing. what we do is take one along "just in case", she never
has to wear it but it is there. Often now she will ask me to bring along a
coat or shoes "just in case". Yesterday we headed out to our local
exhibition for the day. Left in the afternoon and knew we would be away into
the evening. So even though she had a long sleeve sweater on, I suggested a
coat, just in case. She said no. Ok... we didn't take one for her. By 9, she
wanted something on her, well I had a blanket so she bundled in the stroller
in that. Then as she was going onto the ferris wheel with her dad I said to
take the blanket as it would be cool up there. He was surprised at the
suggestion and I said, well we don't have a coat for her. She said next time
she would bring a coat that she was sorry she didn't let me bring a "just in
case coat". In this instance, I didn't force her to take along the coat, but
had something else for her I assumed one of us would need. AND at the end of
it, she realized that she might want one when she is going to be gone for a
long time without me having to force a rule down her throat or any sacrifice
of herself. All good:-)
A lot of people confuse structure. We don't have a lot of rules anymore. but
we offer lots of structure in our every day life. We get up every morning
and eat breakfast. We talk about the day and plan what we are going to do.
Some days we are home some days we are out. My dh works from home so he is
here lots and that can cause plans to change. We always eat lunch and dinner
is most always together (this will differ from others here, but it isn't a
battle for us and we love it), then we have bed time and it is over. So I
think we have routine and Hannah gets her structure in knowing she is in a
safe, secure loving family. Now my SIL as an example, has A LOT of rules, so
some would assume lots of structure. But does not have the same peaceful
living environment that we experience in my opinion. She spends a lot of
time chasing down people including her dh to reprimand them for not doing
something, not doing it right or doing something or whatever.
I am not sure if I am rambling or making any sense anymore, so will end
here,
I hope something in this helped,
Sherri-Lee
_____
From: Katie [mailto:kattilily@...]
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 8:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Intro and ???Manners
Hi, My name is Katie and I am a stay at home mama to Mabel who is 7
months. We are fully an AP family. We live in Denver, Colorado.
(if anyone else is close by, :o)) Mabel is very active and started
crawling backwards at 5 months and forward at 6. Sounds like Emma.
I am already seeing her start to stay up later and later cause she
wants to practice standing up. I am glad I am here to learn about
how to accept these challenges as they arise. I am in the process
of figuring out whether I have what it takes to homeschool. This
whole philosophy of unschooling is very new to me. It sounds very
interesting and effective. I have to constantly remind myself of my
own reactions to being forced to do things and how that has created
a resistance to this day. I am having a hard time grasping how you
raise your kids into polite, respectful adults without any control.
My question is... how would you teach them to say please and thank
you? Or to clear their plate and help out when a guest at someone's
home? How do you teach them to help around the house? Will they
naturally wish to do these things? I know kids are eager to
participate and have a huge amount of desire to do nice things on
their own, so maybe that is the idea. It's just so vastly different
than our entire society has been trained to think. I'd like to know
how you give them structure in this type of environment. I know I
needed structure growing up. I needed daily routines and rituals.
I loved that we ate dinner together at almost the same time every
night. I loved that my dad tucked me into bed and said the same
prayers to me. I think stability is important too. I'm wondering
how you set all this up while still letting your children be free.
Are there any family rules? Any rules at all? For example, do you
let your kid go out of the house in the snow without a coat or
sweater just cause they feel like it?
I really do think this sounds like an awesome way to parent and am
so eager to learn more. Thanks in advance for taking the time to
explain it to me.
Warmly,
Katie
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Some here might be chuckling at me jumping in with "advice" (although I
would hesitate to call it that) since I am also new to this, but here is my
take:
The biggest challenge for me is to delete everything I was told by my
parents about what my abilities were as a child. Because they have coloured
my belief in myself as an adult and my beliefs in my kids (I can say kids
now as I am less than 2 months from having the second:-)). So I started (and
still do) by questioning every single "no" I wanted to say to my daughter. I
was trying to find the source and motivation for that answer. Once I know
that then it helps me to know if my answer is respectful (would it feel that
way to me or not) and will it have the desired effect. Now I know my
daughter and she like to do opposite of what ever I tell her, and has a hard
time distinguishing between suggestions and orders, so it has been a bit of
work that is for sure. But that was my start. I totally believe that you get
what you give in this world, especially with kids. And so if you act
respectful you will get respect (maybe not in that minute, but hey then it
didn't take me a minute to learn it either). And I see it. When I am tired
and short and impatient and snap at my daughter that is exactly what I get
back and then for some reason I find *her* tone of voice to be less than
respectful. What about mine?
Two examples that come to mind: My dh is really having a hard time with our
dd interrupting us when we are talking. I swear she has some sort of beacon
on that says "oh they are talking, now I have to interrupt", even though she
actually often doesn't have anything to say. What I noticed though, is how
often HE interrupts her! He thinks she is done, or has gone on for too long,
or is not listening or what ever and just starts talking over her. Well
where did she learn this? Today I told him to have faith she will learn this
and he said "maybe!" and I said "yup you are right, you never learned it so
maybe she won't either". So I can see that I have to start doing the same
with both of them and setting the example and remind them both to not
interrupt. The other is my SIL who complains all the time that her two boys
don't respect her but she never shows them any respect and she gets right
back what she gives. She thinks this is some hookey new age parenting and
that she should get respect just because she is the parent, I say she is in
for a rude awakening:-)
On to the other things in your post:
Please and thank you. My dd, is the most polite kid I know. and we have
never forced it. We remind sometimes, although I don't even like doing that,
but she uses please and thank you a lot. Why? Because we modeled it to her.
My dh always thanks me for dinner and then gets up and cleans up afterwards.
So she thanks me for dinner each night now too.
By clear their plate, I think you mean moving it to the sink? Well I ask her
to bring me her plate. She does sometimes. she doesn't others times. The
times she does I thank her for her help the times she doesn't I go get it
and that is it.
She loves housecleaning (don't ask me where she gets this from) but I find
her in her little apron with her duster in the living room tsk tsking
because it is dusty. LOL. so I follow her lead and help HER do the cleaning
that day. We plan days when we are going to do it. We have cleaners in once
a month or so, she grabs her tools and wonders around the house helping them
out. Some kids want to, I bet some don't. Not sure that forcing them will
cause them to be cleaner/tidier people when they live on their own. They
will be how they be and then when they find the motivator to change they
will. But motivation has to come from and internal source, not external.
(wow my college diploma just came in handy!)
Oh the coat thing. what we do is take one along "just in case", she never
has to wear it but it is there. Often now she will ask me to bring along a
coat or shoes "just in case". Yesterday we headed out to our local
exhibition for the day. Left in the afternoon and knew we would be away into
the evening. So even though she had a long sleeve sweater on, I suggested a
coat, just in case. She said no. Ok... we didn't take one for her. By 9, she
wanted something on her, well I had a blanket so she bundled in the stroller
in that. Then as she was going onto the ferris wheel with her dad I said to
take the blanket as it would be cool up there. He was surprised at the
suggestion and I said, well we don't have a coat for her. She said next time
she would bring a coat that she was sorry she didn't let me bring a "just in
case coat". In this instance, I didn't force her to take along the coat, but
had something else for her I assumed one of us would need. AND at the end of
it, she realized that she might want one when she is going to be gone for a
long time without me having to force a rule down her throat or any sacrifice
of herself. All good:-)
A lot of people confuse structure. We don't have a lot of rules anymore. but
we offer lots of structure in our every day life. We get up every morning
and eat breakfast. We talk about the day and plan what we are going to do.
Some days we are home some days we are out. My dh works from home so he is
here lots and that can cause plans to change. We always eat lunch and dinner
is most always together (this will differ from others here, but it isn't a
battle for us and we love it), then we have bed time and it is over. So I
think we have routine and Hannah gets her structure in knowing she is in a
safe, secure loving family. Now my SIL as an example, has A LOT of rules, so
some would assume lots of structure. But does not have the same peaceful
living environment that we experience in my opinion. She spends a lot of
time chasing down people including her dh to reprimand them for not doing
something, not doing it right or doing something or whatever.
I am not sure if I am rambling or making any sense anymore, so will end
here,
I hope something in this helped,
Sherri-Lee
_____
From: Katie [mailto:kattilily@...]
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 8:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Intro and ???Manners
Hi, My name is Katie and I am a stay at home mama to Mabel who is 7
months. We are fully an AP family. We live in Denver, Colorado.
(if anyone else is close by, :o)) Mabel is very active and started
crawling backwards at 5 months and forward at 6. Sounds like Emma.
I am already seeing her start to stay up later and later cause she
wants to practice standing up. I am glad I am here to learn about
how to accept these challenges as they arise. I am in the process
of figuring out whether I have what it takes to homeschool. This
whole philosophy of unschooling is very new to me. It sounds very
interesting and effective. I have to constantly remind myself of my
own reactions to being forced to do things and how that has created
a resistance to this day. I am having a hard time grasping how you
raise your kids into polite, respectful adults without any control.
My question is... how would you teach them to say please and thank
you? Or to clear their plate and help out when a guest at someone's
home? How do you teach them to help around the house? Will they
naturally wish to do these things? I know kids are eager to
participate and have a huge amount of desire to do nice things on
their own, so maybe that is the idea. It's just so vastly different
than our entire society has been trained to think. I'd like to know
how you give them structure in this type of environment. I know I
needed structure growing up. I needed daily routines and rituals.
I loved that we ate dinner together at almost the same time every
night. I loved that my dad tucked me into bed and said the same
prayers to me. I think stability is important too. I'm wondering
how you set all this up while still letting your children be free.
Are there any family rules? Any rules at all? For example, do you
let your kid go out of the house in the snow without a coat or
sweater just cause they feel like it?
I really do think this sounds like an awesome way to parent and am
so eager to learn more. Thanks in advance for taking the time to
explain it to me.
Warmly,
Katie
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
This is, of course, in hopes that she goes outdoors (only temporary, I don't mean it to come across as letting her play for an hour without one! ) anyway, in hopes that she goes
out and feels the cold air and thinks to herself, I need a coat.
*****
Or maybe she won't feel the need for a coat, and will play for more than hour without one! As long as she's comfortable, that's not a problem either. I have pictures of Andy at 6yo, running on a playground in the sleet (on Dec 21) wearing a coat -- over his shorts and flip-flops (year-round footwear for Andy), having a ball! Colds and illness aren't caused by cold weather, or even getting cold -- they're caused by a virus. Comfort is the issue, and some people are less sensitive to cold (or heat) than others.
My theory has always been that my kids are aware enough to know when they're cold, and to ask for a coat/sweater accordingly. I remember when Will (19 now) was small and my Mom would get upset with me for letting him play outside without a coat. I told her I've wondered if maybe the reason we were always so sensitive to cold was that she bundled us up so. She was always the 'put on a sweater -- I'm cold' kind of Mom. I was determined to let my kids find their own comfort level with the weather. As it turns out, they're all much more tolerant of both cold and heat than I am. For me, heat's not a big problem, but I get chilled quickly. At sundown, they and their Dad are still out in shorts and t-shirts, while I've pulled on a sweatshirt.
Syl
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out and feels the cold air and thinks to herself, I need a coat.
*****
Or maybe she won't feel the need for a coat, and will play for more than hour without one! As long as she's comfortable, that's not a problem either. I have pictures of Andy at 6yo, running on a playground in the sleet (on Dec 21) wearing a coat -- over his shorts and flip-flops (year-round footwear for Andy), having a ball! Colds and illness aren't caused by cold weather, or even getting cold -- they're caused by a virus. Comfort is the issue, and some people are less sensitive to cold (or heat) than others.
My theory has always been that my kids are aware enough to know when they're cold, and to ask for a coat/sweater accordingly. I remember when Will (19 now) was small and my Mom would get upset with me for letting him play outside without a coat. I told her I've wondered if maybe the reason we were always so sensitive to cold was that she bundled us up so. She was always the 'put on a sweater -- I'm cold' kind of Mom. I was determined to let my kids find their own comfort level with the weather. As it turns out, they're all much more tolerant of both cold and heat than I am. For me, heat's not a big problem, but I get chilled quickly. At sundown, they and their Dad are still out in shorts and t-shirts, while I've pulled on a sweatshirt.
Syl
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Kiersten Pasciak
>>>>> Hi, My name is Katie and I am a stay at home mama to Mabel whois 7 months. We are fully an AP family. We live in Denver,
Colorado. (if anyone else is close by, :o)) Mabel is very active
and started crawling backwards at 5 months and forward at 6. Sounds
like Emma. >>>>>
Hi Katie! This is Kiersten, mom to Jacob and Emma. Get yourself
ready for a crazy ride, LOL. my advice is to treat her with the
respect you would show a friend. Even when my kids were very small,
we didn't shout at them to do something. If they touched something
that could hurt them, for instance pulling on a plug, we would
say "no hands please, that's not a toy" while gently removing their
hands. Usually, I would then direct their attention to something
else. After a few times, they would listen and stop the action.
Warning, there was a small period where each kid decided to "test"
this and would grin right at me while actively reaching. They also
did and still do this with the "come here please" or "time for a
clean diaper" requests. Eventually, as they gained motor skills, we
carefully showed them "how" to do an action in a safe manner and let
them have at it. One day , we let Jacob play with daddy's amplifier
and he pluggeg it in and unplugged it for over an hour! Then he gave
up playing with cords...seems he had learned what he wanted for the
time being :)
> I am already seeing her start to stay up later and later cause sheHope you can handle the sleep issue better than I have. It has been
> wants to practice standing up. I am glad I am here to learn about
> how to accept these challenges as they arise.
very frustrating. Being on this list and reading the unschooling
books, even for just a week, has really changed my attitude and I am
watching what she chooses to play with when she is staying up. It is
pretty fascinating!
> My question is... how would you teach them to say please andthank
> you? Or to clear their plate and help out when a guest atsomeone's
> home? How do you teach them to help around the house? Will theyJacob learned to be polite by example. Sometimes, if he asks
> naturally wish to do these things?
something in a tone or manner I don't personally like, I will just
tell him "I don't like to be asked like that. When you ask politely,
it makes we more willing to help you". Same with behaving in a
store. When he behaves in an easy manner, I tell him "I really
enjoyed coming here with you today. That makes me want to bring you
here again" He loves this. Even if he is unhappy to leave a place,
like McDonald's playland, I tell him "I know you had a lot of fun
today, we will come back again", while putting his shoes on. He will
ask "Can we come again?" to which I can easily say "Yes, I had I
great time, I would love to bring you here again ANOTHER DAY, It's
time to go"
I would recommend the books by Faber and Mazlish..."Sibling Rivalry"
(even if you only have one), "Liberated Parents..." and "How to Talk
so Kids Will Listen & Listen so Kids Will Talk". They really helped
me to see, the need for ME to be genuine with my kids about my
feelings. If I constantly do what they ask me, ignoring my own
feelings and needs, I will get grumpy and we will have a tough time.
I have learned to say "yes" as often as I am TRULY happy to do so,
to say "yes, you can do that later, tomorrow, when daddy gets home,
etc." whenever I am not quite ready. Or "I will think about it" if I
am unsure. When I get frustrated I tell them. "I am getting
frustrated, grrrrrrrr" (roaring sound you hear) We work a lot on
identifying feelings and expressing them in non-destructive ways.
I also look for acceptable outlets for unacceptable behavior.
If Jacob tries to kick Emma, I will tell him "Kicking can hurt, we
don't kick people. You MAY kick the ball, the pillow, etc. Let's go
get it" For climbing up stuff, "Tables are not for climbing, you can
climb on the slide, couch, etc.". "Crayons go on paper" was popular
before I found Mr Clean Magic Erasers. Now I don't care and the
crayons pretty much stay on the paper. Even with Emma. Whenever
a "new" challenge pops up, I look for a response I can use that I
won't mind hearing them say to me or to another child because they
WILL repeat it!
"I can't see the TV, Can you please move" is SO much easier to hear
than "Get out of my way". This came home when our niece (6) stayed
over the other night. She said things to my kids in the cruelest
ways and I was very bothered to know she must be hearing it
somewhere or at least not being asked to stop speaking that way if
it was of her own design. I told her that we treat people kindly in
our house and I would appreciate it if she could do the same while
she stayed with us. Then I tried to "feed" her polite ways to say
things as the need came up.
>>>>>>> I needed structure growing up. I needed daily routines andrituals.
> I loved that we ate dinner together at almost the same time everyI am with you on the need for some routines, although I was NOT
> night. I loved that my dad tucked me into bed and said the same
> prayers to me. I think stability is important too. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
raised with very many. I have found FlyLady.net and the book "Sink
Reflections" to be incredibly helpful! The point is to set up
routines that make sense and make you happy. The kids will follow
along. Eating together may take more work, we don't have that one
down yet, but my kids are little and don't eat as late as my husband
gets home. They may never. Maybe our time playing games, reading
books, and hanging out outside together is just as good. We are
still talking and hanging out together!
>>>>>>>Do you let your kid go out of the house in the snow without acoat or sweater just cause they feel like it? <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Absolutely!!!
They will learn more from natural consequences than you could ever
teach them with a lecture!
And they get the feeling of power from making their own choices!
Jsut DON'T give then the standard "I told you so", when they are
done and freezing, LOL
Kiersten
Kiersten Pasciak
Katie,
I also parctice using the royal "we" and "us" a lot!!!
As in "Let's clean up" and then singing a song about cleaning up
while I do it. Usually they will join in. If not, fine.
I hate to see kids who are told that they made the mess, so they
have to clean it up. This makes it seem like such a chore! If
cleaning is not such a big deal (in our attitude and actions) then I
feel it will be less of a struggle for our kids.
So far, my 2 both love to help clean. It is just a game.
Kiersten
I also parctice using the royal "we" and "us" a lot!!!
As in "Let's clean up" and then singing a song about cleaning up
while I do it. Usually they will join in. If not, fine.
I hate to see kids who are told that they made the mess, so they
have to clean it up. This makes it seem like such a chore! If
cleaning is not such a big deal (in our attitude and actions) then I
feel it will be less of a struggle for our kids.
So far, my 2 both love to help clean. It is just a game.
Kiersten
TreeGoddess
On Aug 23, 2004, at 11:25 AM, Katie wrote:
DD. :) I'm going to give you some links to read that might help you
as much as they helped me. Start off by getting your "Certificate of
Empowerment" at http://sandradodd.com/empowerment
our children the freedom to unschool if we can first DEschool
ourselves. For "Deschooling for Parents" go to
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
(Very helpful site in general so go back and read the rest of Sandra's
site at http://www.SandraDodd.com/unschooling when you get a chance.
Bookmark it so you can come back to it too. :')
spoke to me about manners and modeling. I had already had these
thoughts, but this was the first time that I learned that others might
feel the same way. "How Children Learn Manners" is linked at
http://www.naturalchild.org/naomi_aldort/manners.html That whole web
site is great too!
they will pick that up. Forcing compliance doesn't make them *want* to
do anything. ;) I'm going to refer you back to Sandra Dodd's site to
her page on "chores" at http://sandradodd.com/chores
just assume that you must have "needed" something because that's the
way you were raised, but if we really look hard and break things down
sometimes things aren't what they seem. Not suggesting that this bears
true for you, but I've heard some people (usually male) state that they
"needed" to be spanked as a child and that getting spanked helped to
keep them good. Yikes!
either way. They're just as happy to grab their plate and take it with
them to watch a movie (or I'll bring it to them) or work on a craft
project, or leave it at the table and run up to grab a bite or two
before scampering off to whatever they're interests are taking them.
They're free to choose if they want to participate in a family dinner
and oftentimes they do sit and eat with us, but if they didn't want to
I certainly wouldn't insist on it. An upset or crying child isn't
going to be making any happy memories of family dinners nor is it
likely that the rest of the diners are going to enjoy their dinner
while one person is obviously upset and unhappy. KWIM? I hope that
makes sense.
not hurting each other is, I guess, closer to a rule in our home, but
that's about it. Once more, back to Sandra's wonderful site for
principles vs. rules at http://sandradodd.com/rules
really cold, and if/when they do come in I make a point of *not* saying
or acting like "I told you so". Just happily help them with their coat
(if they need/want your help). You might even offer to make hot
chocolate for them when they're done outside. Or warm up soup. Or
have warm, dry clothing ready for them to change into once their coats
and boots are off. Comfort. Love. Warmth. These are the things I
want my children to remember about me. Take that into the rest of your
Mothering and you can't go wrong. ;)
HTH
-Tracy-
> [I am in the process of figuring out whether I haveMore likely than not, Katie, you are very capable of unschooling your
> what it takes to homeschool.]
DD. :) I'm going to give you some links to read that might help you
as much as they helped me. Start off by getting your "Certificate of
Empowerment" at http://sandradodd.com/empowerment
> [This whole philosophy of unschooling is very new to me.Here's the next part. It's a lot easier to unschool ourselves and give
> It sounds very interesting and effective. I have to constantly
> remind myself of my own reactions to being forced to do things
> and how that has created a resistance to this day.]
our children the freedom to unschool if we can first DEschool
ourselves. For "Deschooling for Parents" go to
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
(Very helpful site in general so go back and read the rest of Sandra's
site at http://www.SandraDodd.com/unschooling when you get a chance.
Bookmark it so you can come back to it too. :')
> [I am having a hard time grasping how you raise your kids intoI read a great article by Naomi Aldort a year or so ago that really
> polite, respectful adults without any control. My question is...
> how would you teach them to say please and thank you?]
spoke to me about manners and modeling. I had already had these
thoughts, but this was the first time that I learned that others might
feel the same way. "How Children Learn Manners" is linked at
http://www.naturalchild.org/naomi_aldort/manners.html That whole web
site is great too!
> [Or to clear their plate and help out when a guest at someone'sAgain, as others have mentioned, modeling is the most likely way that
> home? How do you teach them to help around the house? Will they
> naturally wish to do these things?]
they will pick that up. Forcing compliance doesn't make them *want* to
do anything. ;) I'm going to refer you back to Sandra Dodd's site to
her page on "chores" at http://sandradodd.com/chores
> [I'd like to know how you give them structure in this type ofDid you? How would you have known any different? It's kind of easy to
> environment.
> I know I needed structure growing up. I needed daily routines and
> rituals.]
just assume that you must have "needed" something because that's the
way you were raised, but if we really look hard and break things down
sometimes things aren't what they seem. Not suggesting that this bears
true for you, but I've heard some people (usually male) state that they
"needed" to be spanked as a child and that getting spanked helped to
keep them good. Yikes!
> [I loved that we ate dinner together at almost the same time everyI enjoy eating meals together often also, but my children don't care
> night. I loved that my dad tucked me into bed and said the same
> prayers to me. I think stability is important too. I'm wondering
> how you set all this up while still letting your children be free.]
either way. They're just as happy to grab their plate and take it with
them to watch a movie (or I'll bring it to them) or work on a craft
project, or leave it at the table and run up to grab a bite or two
before scampering off to whatever they're interests are taking them.
They're free to choose if they want to participate in a family dinner
and oftentimes they do sit and eat with us, but if they didn't want to
I certainly wouldn't insist on it. An upset or crying child isn't
going to be making any happy memories of family dinners nor is it
likely that the rest of the diners are going to enjoy their dinner
while one person is obviously upset and unhappy. KWIM? I hope that
makes sense.
> [Are there any family rules? Any rules at all?]Hmmmm... more like "principles" rather than "rules". Big things like
not hurting each other is, I guess, closer to a rule in our home, but
that's about it. Once more, back to Sandra's wonderful site for
principles vs. rules at http://sandradodd.com/rules
> [For example, do you let your kid go out of the house in the snowSure! It's likely that they won't stay out there for very long if it's
> without a coat or sweater just cause they feel like it?]
really cold, and if/when they do come in I make a point of *not* saying
or acting like "I told you so". Just happily help them with their coat
(if they need/want your help). You might even offer to make hot
chocolate for them when they're done outside. Or warm up soup. Or
have warm, dry clothing ready for them to change into once their coats
and boots are off. Comfort. Love. Warmth. These are the things I
want my children to remember about me. Take that into the rest of your
Mothering and you can't go wrong. ;)
HTH
-Tracy-
Tracy Austin
Hi Katie,
Among other things you asked:
She is our first, and this was something that I felt was the right way to "teach" her manners, when I heard it, thought I did have doubts anyway! (PS taught me well to doubt myself, lol!!)
We are polite to each other and her, and now she behaves the same way. It works beautifully, and just wanted to reassure you.
Warmly,
Tracy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Among other things you asked:
>>My question is... how would you teach them to say please and thank you?<<I wanted to say that my dh and I have only ever modeled this to our dd, 2.5. And she is so polite, and almost always says , please, thank you, & you're welcome.
She is our first, and this was something that I felt was the right way to "teach" her manners, when I heard it, thought I did have doubts anyway! (PS taught me well to doubt myself, lol!!)
We are polite to each other and her, and now she behaves the same way. It works beautifully, and just wanted to reassure you.
Warmly,
Tracy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<I am having a hard time grasping how you
raise your kids into polite, respectful adults without any control.>>>
It's modeling.
It's treating them how you would wish them to be - with respect and
politeness and kindness.
It's not punishing a child for being childish in behavior or abilities.
It's living and enjoying the present moment as much as possible and trusting
the future to take care of itself.
Be aware that young kids living in freedom sometimes seem "wild" and
"uncontrolled" in comparison to kids who living with punishments and rules
will seem "compliant". Our kids are honest, expressive, and have no fear of
us. When they are older they are still open, connected with their parents
and charming. (come to the Live and Learn Conference - see for yourself.)
Our little kids will initiate conversations with adults. They will express
their opposing opinions and stand up for themselves strongly. Other people
might call that "talking back"; we call it "having a conversation".
<<<My question is... how would you teach them to say please and thank
you?>>>
We don't "teach" them any of things you mention. That is the whole point of
Unschooling. We lead by example towards them, spouses to each other, towards
our friends and neighbors.
Since your child is so young you might get a lot out of www.naturalchild.org
This is an Attachment Parenting Uber-site.
<<<<It's just so vastly different
than our entire society has been trained to think.>>>
That is precisely why Ren and Kelly have set up this list, and the sister
lists exist - because Unschooling is living in a way that is different from
the rest of society, and the thinking behind every decision and action comes
from different priorities than mainstream society, and mainstream parenting.
Changing our thinking is the toughest challenge for many. This list helps
people to do that.
<<<< I'd like to know
how you give them structure in this type of environment. I know I
needed structure growing up. I needed daily routines and rituals.
I loved that we ate dinner together at almost the same time every
night. I loved that my dad tucked me into bed and said the same
prayers to me. I think stability is important too. I'm wondering
how you set all this up while still letting your children be free.>>>>
You may have believed you needed structure because you were not Unschooled
(or some other reason). Unschooling does not mean you have to throw out
every pleasant memory of your childhood, but it may make you question why
you enjoyed certain things. Please don't become emotionally attached to the
idea that your child will necessarily need and enjoy the same things you
did, although she may. She may want something different.
"Structure" is not something that is either laudable OR reprehensible in
itself. Try thinking of routines and structures as an organizational tool
that you can take or leave, depending on your child's needs, and in any
given situation, and that can change over time. Rigid and uncompromising are
two characteristics to avoid.
For many traditional families nightly dinner is the ONLY time the family can
get together due to work and school and homework. If you find your family
enjoys dinners together every night, or once a week, or prefers that family
meal to be breakfast, or prefers to eat in different places, you are free to
create your own traditions that fill the needs of all the members of your
family.
Some children ask for routines - then help them create them. Understand that
a routine should only be followed while it is useful and helpful. Routines
should never supersede the needs of the child.
<<<Are there any family rules? Any rules at all? For example, do you
let your kid go out of the house in the snow without a coat or
sweater just cause they feel like it? >>>
One of the things to think about is what you are depriving your child of
every time you force some rule on them, or make a decision for them.
You are depriving them of the chance to use their ability to make a
decision. You are depriving them of the opportunity to feel competent and
confident. You are depriving them of a parent who is thinking logically and
living in the present the moment. You are depriving them of the chance to
discover something new to them about the world.
You are depriving yourself of the chance to make a lifelong memory of some
wonderful, unlikely, imaginative solution to the problem before you that
your child will come up with. When they are given the chance to do so, they
really do come up with some wild, different, creative ideas in any
situation.
Children are not stupid or willful or deliberately manipulating. This "coat
in the snow" example drives me nuts - being so trivial. People can tell if
they are cold or not. Just bring along the coat without comment, and she
will ask for it when she's ready. If however you have set up a power
struggle, or say "I told you so" in words or attitude, she will likely act
on her emotional needs for self determination, instead of her body's cues,
and refuse to put the coat for on long after she would have.
Rules are made to be broken, or gotten around, or "let's find the loophole",
or "let's test them and see if disaster really will ensue". You have a lot
of reading ahead of you on Principles vs Rules.
Try www.sandradodd.com
Welcome to the journey.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
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raise your kids into polite, respectful adults without any control.>>>
It's modeling.
It's treating them how you would wish them to be - with respect and
politeness and kindness.
It's not punishing a child for being childish in behavior or abilities.
It's living and enjoying the present moment as much as possible and trusting
the future to take care of itself.
Be aware that young kids living in freedom sometimes seem "wild" and
"uncontrolled" in comparison to kids who living with punishments and rules
will seem "compliant". Our kids are honest, expressive, and have no fear of
us. When they are older they are still open, connected with their parents
and charming. (come to the Live and Learn Conference - see for yourself.)
Our little kids will initiate conversations with adults. They will express
their opposing opinions and stand up for themselves strongly. Other people
might call that "talking back"; we call it "having a conversation".
<<<My question is... how would you teach them to say please and thank
you?>>>
We don't "teach" them any of things you mention. That is the whole point of
Unschooling. We lead by example towards them, spouses to each other, towards
our friends and neighbors.
Since your child is so young you might get a lot out of www.naturalchild.org
This is an Attachment Parenting Uber-site.
<<<<It's just so vastly different
than our entire society has been trained to think.>>>
That is precisely why Ren and Kelly have set up this list, and the sister
lists exist - because Unschooling is living in a way that is different from
the rest of society, and the thinking behind every decision and action comes
from different priorities than mainstream society, and mainstream parenting.
Changing our thinking is the toughest challenge for many. This list helps
people to do that.
<<<< I'd like to know
how you give them structure in this type of environment. I know I
needed structure growing up. I needed daily routines and rituals.
I loved that we ate dinner together at almost the same time every
night. I loved that my dad tucked me into bed and said the same
prayers to me. I think stability is important too. I'm wondering
how you set all this up while still letting your children be free.>>>>
You may have believed you needed structure because you were not Unschooled
(or some other reason). Unschooling does not mean you have to throw out
every pleasant memory of your childhood, but it may make you question why
you enjoyed certain things. Please don't become emotionally attached to the
idea that your child will necessarily need and enjoy the same things you
did, although she may. She may want something different.
"Structure" is not something that is either laudable OR reprehensible in
itself. Try thinking of routines and structures as an organizational tool
that you can take or leave, depending on your child's needs, and in any
given situation, and that can change over time. Rigid and uncompromising are
two characteristics to avoid.
For many traditional families nightly dinner is the ONLY time the family can
get together due to work and school and homework. If you find your family
enjoys dinners together every night, or once a week, or prefers that family
meal to be breakfast, or prefers to eat in different places, you are free to
create your own traditions that fill the needs of all the members of your
family.
Some children ask for routines - then help them create them. Understand that
a routine should only be followed while it is useful and helpful. Routines
should never supersede the needs of the child.
<<<Are there any family rules? Any rules at all? For example, do you
let your kid go out of the house in the snow without a coat or
sweater just cause they feel like it? >>>
One of the things to think about is what you are depriving your child of
every time you force some rule on them, or make a decision for them.
You are depriving them of the chance to use their ability to make a
decision. You are depriving them of the opportunity to feel competent and
confident. You are depriving them of a parent who is thinking logically and
living in the present the moment. You are depriving them of the chance to
discover something new to them about the world.
You are depriving yourself of the chance to make a lifelong memory of some
wonderful, unlikely, imaginative solution to the problem before you that
your child will come up with. When they are given the chance to do so, they
really do come up with some wild, different, creative ideas in any
situation.
Children are not stupid or willful or deliberately manipulating. This "coat
in the snow" example drives me nuts - being so trivial. People can tell if
they are cold or not. Just bring along the coat without comment, and she
will ask for it when she's ready. If however you have set up a power
struggle, or say "I told you so" in words or attitude, she will likely act
on her emotional needs for self determination, instead of her body's cues,
and refuse to put the coat for on long after she would have.
Rules are made to be broken, or gotten around, or "let's find the loophole",
or "let's test them and see if disaster really will ensue". You have a lot
of reading ahead of you on Principles vs Rules.
Try www.sandradodd.com
Welcome to the journey.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Robyn Coburn
<<<<I would recommend the books by Faber and Mazlish..."Sibling Rivalry"
(even if you only have one), "Liberated Parents..." and "How to Talk
so Kids Will Listen & Listen so Kids Will Talk". They really helped
me to see, the need for ME to be genuine with my kids about my
feelings.>>>
I would recommend "How to Talk..." but I can't second the "Liberated
Parents...." one. (Haven't read "Sibling Rivalry" so no comment).
I recently finished "Liberated Parents" and it would seem definitely to be
an early work. The format was somewhat irritating, but it was the content
that fell short. What I find increasingly with many of these child
development type books is that they just don't go as far into the realm of
respect and compassion for kids as Unschoolers do. I get better, more
rigorous suggestions from the lists - for free.
In this book, after 5 years or more of attending the parent workshop (a
construct of the book) the main characters, or their spouses, were still
punishing, yelling and even spanking in some cases! There was a lot that
seemed like manipulation, rather than genuine freedom of choice. It just
didn't wash. There is way too much compensating for the emotional damage of
school, without the choice to not go to school ever mentioned. That made it
seem irrelevant to me.
"How to Talk.." seems to be much more general in that a lot of the problems
used as examples are not school related. It seems to be close to NVC, which
could be another concept to look at.
There is some good stuff about dealing with children's emotions at
www.naturalchild.org especially Jan Hunt and Naomi Aldort.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.740 / Virus Database: 494 - Release Date: 8/16/2004
(even if you only have one), "Liberated Parents..." and "How to Talk
so Kids Will Listen & Listen so Kids Will Talk". They really helped
me to see, the need for ME to be genuine with my kids about my
feelings.>>>
I would recommend "How to Talk..." but I can't second the "Liberated
Parents...." one. (Haven't read "Sibling Rivalry" so no comment).
I recently finished "Liberated Parents" and it would seem definitely to be
an early work. The format was somewhat irritating, but it was the content
that fell short. What I find increasingly with many of these child
development type books is that they just don't go as far into the realm of
respect and compassion for kids as Unschoolers do. I get better, more
rigorous suggestions from the lists - for free.
In this book, after 5 years or more of attending the parent workshop (a
construct of the book) the main characters, or their spouses, were still
punishing, yelling and even spanking in some cases! There was a lot that
seemed like manipulation, rather than genuine freedom of choice. It just
didn't wash. There is way too much compensating for the emotional damage of
school, without the choice to not go to school ever mentioned. That made it
seem irrelevant to me.
"How to Talk.." seems to be much more general in that a lot of the problems
used as examples are not school related. It seems to be close to NVC, which
could be another concept to look at.
There is some good stuff about dealing with children's emotions at
www.naturalchild.org especially Jan Hunt and Naomi Aldort.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.740 / Virus Database: 494 - Release Date: 8/16/2004
Kiersten Pasciak
>>>>>> I would recommend "How to Talk..." but I can't secondthe "Liberated Parents...." one. (Haven't read "Sibling Rivalry" so
no comment).<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>I recently finished "Liberated Parents" and it would seemdefinitely to be an early work. The format was somewhat irritating,
but it was the content that fell short.<<<<<<
I agree it fell short in several areas.
The MAJOR thing I did get out of it which was NOT specifically
addressed in the other two, was being genuine about your own
feelings in a compassionate way. They go into such detail in the
other two about helping your kids recognize their feelings and
accepting that there are no "bad" or "wrong" feelings, just
inapropriate ways of expressing them. I was left still acting like a
martyr while I tried to meet all their needs and wound up neglecting
my own. Truly, how long can you wait to go to the bathroom because
your kids "need" you? When Jacob was a baby, it pained me so much to
make him wait, that I would honestly take him to the bathroom with
me, still latched on and nursing and try to undress, pee, and
redress with the hand not supporting him, LOL. After reading that
chapter, a lightbulb went off and I was able to kindly tell my kids
if I needed them to wait, or that we could do what they wanted on a
different day because the timing wasn't good, or whatever as the
need arose. I began to treat MYSELF with the respect I deserved too.
That can only be good for them to see, in my opinion.
>>>>>>There was a lot that seemed like manipulation, rather thangenuine freedom of choice. It just didn't wash. There is way too
much compensating for the emotional damage of school, without the
choice to not go to school ever mentioned. That made it seem
irrelevant to me. <<<<<<<<<<<<
I agree much of their work IS manipulation. Offering your kid 2
choices and if they don't pick, you do! We started with this and
then moved to helping figure out more choices if the first 2 or3
were unacceptable.
I do however think they are a great starting point as they explain
why techniques such as hitting, shaming, and the ever popular "time
out" are poor choices. It is amazing how many people swear by these
methods while their children are tiny and then can't seem to figure
out what "happened" when their children get bigger, resent the power
play, and act up.
Kiersten
Robyn Coburn
<<<<The MAJOR thing I did get out of it which was NOT specifically
addressed in the other two, was being genuine about your own
feelings in a compassionate way. They go into such detail in the
other two about helping your kids recognize their feelings and
accepting that there are no "bad" or "wrong" feelings, just
inapropriate ways of expressing them. I was left still acting like a
martyr while I tried to meet all their needs and wound up neglecting
my own. >>>
What has happened to me since being on UnschoolingDiscussion for so long (it
must be getting close to 2.5 -3 years), is that the above issues have come
around in a cyclic manner repeatedly. It seems like almost every larger
parenting issue has come around in this way. So from that I feel like I have
already received most of the information in parenting books - only skewed to
Unschooling, which is where I want to go.
I felt this way about "The Unschooling Handbook" which is often recommended
to new Unschoolers - who would certainly get the most benefit from it.
However, by the time I got hold of a copy I had heard everything in it, for
free, on line, in many cases from the same writers.
As you say, these books can be a good starting point. However my
recommendation is usually "The Unprocessed Child", just because it deals
with these type of issues definitely from an Unschooling perspective.
<<<<Truly, how long can you wait to go to the bathroom because
your kids "need" you? When Jacob was a baby, it pained me so much to
make him wait, that I would honestly take him to the bathroom with
me, still latched on and nursing and try to undress, pee, and
redress with the hand not supporting him, LOL. After reading that
chapter, a lightbulb went off and I was able to kindly tell my kids
if I needed them to wait, or that we could do what they wanted on a
different day because the timing wasn't good, or whatever as the
need arose. I began to treat MYSELF with the respect I deserved too.
That can only be good for them to see, in my opinion.>>>>>
I'm seeing what you mean about not being a martyr. However any book that
suggests, or can be taken as suggesting, that parents' needs are more
important than (rather than somewhat equal to) the child's needs, is going
to raise red flags to me.
I read about you taking your nursing baby into the bathroom and don't see
the story of a mom unreasonably being a martyr. I see a mom doing exactly as
she should! Both of you getting your needs met to a degree - and nursing
toddler outweighs comfort for mom. (Out*weighs* - one hand - get it? Heh,
heh.)
Seriously though - it is so temporary, the tiny neediness and inability to
empathize. I've been exactly there - sometimes Jayn still comes into the
bathroom to sit on my lap, if I'm ...stuck there for a while. (Gross images
free for the taking).
<<<<I do however think they are a great starting point as they explain
why techniques such as hitting, shaming, and the ever popular "time
out" are poor choices. It is amazing how many people swear by these
methods while their children are tiny and then can't seem to figure
out what "happened" when their children get bigger, resent the power
play, and act up.>>>>
I guess one reason I prefer "How to Talk..." is because it clearly and
succinctly offers a course of action. Accepting that these dopey old ways
can be discarded is easier for people if they have an alternative in front
of them - less fear.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.740 / Virus Database: 494 - Release Date: 8/16/2004
addressed in the other two, was being genuine about your own
feelings in a compassionate way. They go into such detail in the
other two about helping your kids recognize their feelings and
accepting that there are no "bad" or "wrong" feelings, just
inapropriate ways of expressing them. I was left still acting like a
martyr while I tried to meet all their needs and wound up neglecting
my own. >>>
What has happened to me since being on UnschoolingDiscussion for so long (it
must be getting close to 2.5 -3 years), is that the above issues have come
around in a cyclic manner repeatedly. It seems like almost every larger
parenting issue has come around in this way. So from that I feel like I have
already received most of the information in parenting books - only skewed to
Unschooling, which is where I want to go.
I felt this way about "The Unschooling Handbook" which is often recommended
to new Unschoolers - who would certainly get the most benefit from it.
However, by the time I got hold of a copy I had heard everything in it, for
free, on line, in many cases from the same writers.
As you say, these books can be a good starting point. However my
recommendation is usually "The Unprocessed Child", just because it deals
with these type of issues definitely from an Unschooling perspective.
<<<<Truly, how long can you wait to go to the bathroom because
your kids "need" you? When Jacob was a baby, it pained me so much to
make him wait, that I would honestly take him to the bathroom with
me, still latched on and nursing and try to undress, pee, and
redress with the hand not supporting him, LOL. After reading that
chapter, a lightbulb went off and I was able to kindly tell my kids
if I needed them to wait, or that we could do what they wanted on a
different day because the timing wasn't good, or whatever as the
need arose. I began to treat MYSELF with the respect I deserved too.
That can only be good for them to see, in my opinion.>>>>>
I'm seeing what you mean about not being a martyr. However any book that
suggests, or can be taken as suggesting, that parents' needs are more
important than (rather than somewhat equal to) the child's needs, is going
to raise red flags to me.
I read about you taking your nursing baby into the bathroom and don't see
the story of a mom unreasonably being a martyr. I see a mom doing exactly as
she should! Both of you getting your needs met to a degree - and nursing
toddler outweighs comfort for mom. (Out*weighs* - one hand - get it? Heh,
heh.)
Seriously though - it is so temporary, the tiny neediness and inability to
empathize. I've been exactly there - sometimes Jayn still comes into the
bathroom to sit on my lap, if I'm ...stuck there for a while. (Gross images
free for the taking).
<<<<I do however think they are a great starting point as they explain
why techniques such as hitting, shaming, and the ever popular "time
out" are poor choices. It is amazing how many people swear by these
methods while their children are tiny and then can't seem to figure
out what "happened" when their children get bigger, resent the power
play, and act up.>>>>
I guess one reason I prefer "How to Talk..." is because it clearly and
succinctly offers a course of action. Accepting that these dopey old ways
can be discarded is easier for people if they have an alternative in front
of them - less fear.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.740 / Virus Database: 494 - Release Date: 8/16/2004