Gentler way of talking to your kids
Jeanne Goodman
Ok, my head is spinning from conflicting advice.
When my boy was born, my parenting style was to try to speak to my kids as I would an adult. I spoke gently and politely and did not act like an authoritarian.
When the second came along I started to realize that I was starting to drown. My son was wild, not socializing well with other children and not listening to me.
Time marched on and my children are rather wild and unruly. Friends told me that I am harming my children and causing them socialization problems because of my lack of structure and by not "acting like a parent". So, since I had no one to tell me otherwise, I tried to be more authoritarian and "be the parent." I incorporated structure as much as I was able (not too well, though.)
By the time ds entered fourth grade he went through a great change. Maybe because of biofeedback; maybe because of positive reinforcement; maybe because of maturity. In any case he started to do much better in school and is generally easier for me to work with. The other children won't forget though and he still has social issues.
DD on the other hand, has gotten in trouble so much at school that I can't bear it anymore. She does well academically, but she spent more of first grade in the principal's office than the classroom. Second grade the teacher decided to try to clamp down on her harder to get better behavior. It seemed to work some of the time, but most of the time she would get notes home from school complaining that she was rude and disrespectful.
Given that long background I'll let you know my real question. So now that we're trying homeschooling, I feel as though I'm working to bring her back to healing. We're working on conflict resolution rather than just punishing bad behavior. I'm trying to undo the parenting I had become, but I'm actually finding it a big challenge. I realize that the authoritarian route also has me getting angry and I don't like getting angry with my children.
So I need suggestions... yesterday we got back from a lovely afternoon at the pool. I asked dd (7.98yo) to go back to the car to get the rest of her things. At first she ignored me, so I politely asked again. (Starting to feel the heat rise.) I asked her why she wasn't replying and she said, "No." "No what?" "No I won't go to the car." "Why not?" "I don't want to. I want to play with the dog." That was it... I gave an authoritarian response. I believe I threatened a consequence and she eventually went.
Because of conflict resolution exercises that we've been working on as part of our schooling lessons, DS has been working hard to speak politely too. Yesterday she was poking him with a cattail plant (part of a writing lesson we were about to do) He said, "Miss T, please stop...PLEASE!... MOM! Why won't she listen?!" She wouldn't listen to me either so I took it away.
So that microcosm of conversations felt as though gentle-speak doesn't work and authoritarian does. My friends would say I'm confusing her with gentle-speak by making her feel as though the task is optional. They would say that kids and pets feel more secure when they get clear commands and they don't want a friend.
What could I have done differently?
Jeanne (sorry about the long post)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When my boy was born, my parenting style was to try to speak to my kids as I would an adult. I spoke gently and politely and did not act like an authoritarian.
When the second came along I started to realize that I was starting to drown. My son was wild, not socializing well with other children and not listening to me.
Time marched on and my children are rather wild and unruly. Friends told me that I am harming my children and causing them socialization problems because of my lack of structure and by not "acting like a parent". So, since I had no one to tell me otherwise, I tried to be more authoritarian and "be the parent." I incorporated structure as much as I was able (not too well, though.)
By the time ds entered fourth grade he went through a great change. Maybe because of biofeedback; maybe because of positive reinforcement; maybe because of maturity. In any case he started to do much better in school and is generally easier for me to work with. The other children won't forget though and he still has social issues.
DD on the other hand, has gotten in trouble so much at school that I can't bear it anymore. She does well academically, but she spent more of first grade in the principal's office than the classroom. Second grade the teacher decided to try to clamp down on her harder to get better behavior. It seemed to work some of the time, but most of the time she would get notes home from school complaining that she was rude and disrespectful.
Given that long background I'll let you know my real question. So now that we're trying homeschooling, I feel as though I'm working to bring her back to healing. We're working on conflict resolution rather than just punishing bad behavior. I'm trying to undo the parenting I had become, but I'm actually finding it a big challenge. I realize that the authoritarian route also has me getting angry and I don't like getting angry with my children.
So I need suggestions... yesterday we got back from a lovely afternoon at the pool. I asked dd (7.98yo) to go back to the car to get the rest of her things. At first she ignored me, so I politely asked again. (Starting to feel the heat rise.) I asked her why she wasn't replying and she said, "No." "No what?" "No I won't go to the car." "Why not?" "I don't want to. I want to play with the dog." That was it... I gave an authoritarian response. I believe I threatened a consequence and she eventually went.
Because of conflict resolution exercises that we've been working on as part of our schooling lessons, DS has been working hard to speak politely too. Yesterday she was poking him with a cattail plant (part of a writing lesson we were about to do) He said, "Miss T, please stop...PLEASE!... MOM! Why won't she listen?!" She wouldn't listen to me either so I took it away.
So that microcosm of conversations felt as though gentle-speak doesn't work and authoritarian does. My friends would say I'm confusing her with gentle-speak by making her feel as though the task is optional. They would say that kids and pets feel more secure when they get clear commands and they don't want a friend.
What could I have done differently?
Jeanne (sorry about the long post)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
earthmothergypsy
Jeanne,
Maybe it is because you "asked" her to do it first off instead of
telling her to do it. That sounds different from what I mean
though. lol! Instead of "would you please go get me a diaper?" you
say "get mom a diaper" or "get mom a diaper please". This is based
on *The Continuum Concept* of parenting. Here is a link to an
article that you might find interesting. I sure did. :)
http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/restoringHarmony.html
Restoring Harmony: A Mother's Story
by Abigail Warren
Here is a quote from the article:
"Jean proceeded to describe all the common mistakes made by parents
who are genuinely trying to do everything right (holding our babies,
nursing, sleeping with them). Terrified of doing anything wrong, and
trying so hard to save our children from all the agony we suffered as
children, we go overboard in the other direction (what Jean refers to
as "child-centered"). We try too hard to please, and too hard not to
antagonize. We are over-attentive and self-sacrificing (how did Jean
know me so well?). We look guilty and anxious as we plead with our
children, ask permission of them, and continuously reason, explain,
and apologize. All of this puts the child in control, and since what
the child innately wants and needs is not to be in control, and to
have a mother who is in control, it makes the child insecure and
eventually angry.
"The child needs a mother who is confident and calm," Jean
explained. "A mother who knows what to do, and doesn't ask permission
from her child. It may look the opposite that the child is
struggling for more control, but ironically she is struggling not to
be in control and is pushing you until you stand firm. When a child
feels that she might gain control, her impulse is to push for it. She
cannot resist this, as it is human nature and is exactly what she is
programmed to do.
"Don't plead with her over anything," Jean went on. "If you're
pleading with her, then she's got the power, and it makes her nervous
because it means you're not sure of yourself, and you're begging her
for acceptance. Any grown-up lady that pleads with a four year old is
not to be relied on. Do not ask her what she wants to do, tell her,
but be sure you don't do it in an angry way. Just be matter of fact
and nicely say what you want her to do. Treat her as your ally,
expecting that she wants to know, expecting that she will listen. And
you don't give her endless reasons; that tends again to sound like
pleading.
"Even when you hug your child, see if you're in any way asking for
forgiveness pleading with the child in some way."
HTH! :)
~Amanda
--- In [email protected], "Jeanne Goodman"
<goodmanj@j...> wrote:
like an authoritarian.
and not listening to me.
problems because of my lack of structure and by not "acting like a
parent". So, since I had no one to tell me otherwise, I tried to be
more authoritarian and "be the parent." I incorporated structure as
much as I was able (not too well, though.)
reinforcement; maybe because of maturity. In any case he started to
do much better in school and is generally easier for me to work with.
The other children won't forget though and he still has social issues.
more of first grade in the principal's office than the classroom.
Second grade the teacher decided to try to clamp down on her harder
to get better behavior. It seemed to work some of the time, but most
of the time she would get notes home from school complaining that she
was rude and disrespectful.
bring her back to healing. We're working on conflict resolution
rather than just punishing bad behavior. I'm trying to undo the
parenting I had become, but I'm actually finding it a big challenge.
I realize that the authoritarian route also has me getting angry and
I don't like getting angry with my children.
get the rest of her things. At first she ignored me, so I politely
asked again. (Starting to feel the heat rise.) I asked her why she
wasn't replying and she said, "No." "No what?" "No I won't go to the
car." "Why not?" "I don't want to. I want to play with the dog." That
was it... I gave an authoritarian response. I believe I threatened a
consequence and she eventually went.
politely too. Yesterday she was poking him with a cattail plant (part
of a writing lesson we were about to do) He said, "Miss T, please
stop...PLEASE!... MOM! Why won't she listen?!" She wouldn't listen to
me either so I took it away.
confusing her with gentle-speak by making her feel as though the task
is optional. They would say that kids and pets feel more secure when
they get clear commands and they don't want a friend.
Maybe it is because you "asked" her to do it first off instead of
telling her to do it. That sounds different from what I mean
though. lol! Instead of "would you please go get me a diaper?" you
say "get mom a diaper" or "get mom a diaper please". This is based
on *The Continuum Concept* of parenting. Here is a link to an
article that you might find interesting. I sure did. :)
http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/restoringHarmony.html
Restoring Harmony: A Mother's Story
by Abigail Warren
Here is a quote from the article:
"Jean proceeded to describe all the common mistakes made by parents
who are genuinely trying to do everything right (holding our babies,
nursing, sleeping with them). Terrified of doing anything wrong, and
trying so hard to save our children from all the agony we suffered as
children, we go overboard in the other direction (what Jean refers to
as "child-centered"). We try too hard to please, and too hard not to
antagonize. We are over-attentive and self-sacrificing (how did Jean
know me so well?). We look guilty and anxious as we plead with our
children, ask permission of them, and continuously reason, explain,
and apologize. All of this puts the child in control, and since what
the child innately wants and needs is not to be in control, and to
have a mother who is in control, it makes the child insecure and
eventually angry.
"The child needs a mother who is confident and calm," Jean
explained. "A mother who knows what to do, and doesn't ask permission
from her child. It may look the opposite that the child is
struggling for more control, but ironically she is struggling not to
be in control and is pushing you until you stand firm. When a child
feels that she might gain control, her impulse is to push for it. She
cannot resist this, as it is human nature and is exactly what she is
programmed to do.
"Don't plead with her over anything," Jean went on. "If you're
pleading with her, then she's got the power, and it makes her nervous
because it means you're not sure of yourself, and you're begging her
for acceptance. Any grown-up lady that pleads with a four year old is
not to be relied on. Do not ask her what she wants to do, tell her,
but be sure you don't do it in an angry way. Just be matter of fact
and nicely say what you want her to do. Treat her as your ally,
expecting that she wants to know, expecting that she will listen. And
you don't give her endless reasons; that tends again to sound like
pleading.
"Even when you hug your child, see if you're in any way asking for
forgiveness pleading with the child in some way."
HTH! :)
~Amanda
--- In [email protected], "Jeanne Goodman"
<goodmanj@j...> wrote:
> Ok, my head is spinning from conflicting advice.kids as I would an adult. I spoke gently and politely and did not act
>
> When my boy was born, my parenting style was to try to speak to my
like an authoritarian.
>to drown. My son was wild, not socializing well with other children
> When the second came along I started to realize that I was starting
and not listening to me.
>told me that I am harming my children and causing them socialization
> Time marched on and my children are rather wild and unruly. Friends
problems because of my lack of structure and by not "acting like a
parent". So, since I had no one to tell me otherwise, I tried to be
more authoritarian and "be the parent." I incorporated structure as
much as I was able (not too well, though.)
>Maybe because of biofeedback; maybe because of positive
> By the time ds entered fourth grade he went through a great change.
reinforcement; maybe because of maturity. In any case he started to
do much better in school and is generally easier for me to work with.
The other children won't forget though and he still has social issues.
>I can't bear it anymore. She does well academically, but she spent
> DD on the other hand, has gotten in trouble so much at school that
more of first grade in the principal's office than the classroom.
Second grade the teacher decided to try to clamp down on her harder
to get better behavior. It seemed to work some of the time, but most
of the time she would get notes home from school complaining that she
was rude and disrespectful.
>now that we're trying homeschooling, I feel as though I'm working to
> Given that long background I'll let you know my real question. So
bring her back to healing. We're working on conflict resolution
rather than just punishing bad behavior. I'm trying to undo the
parenting I had become, but I'm actually finding it a big challenge.
I realize that the authoritarian route also has me getting angry and
I don't like getting angry with my children.
>afternoon at the pool. I asked dd (7.98yo) to go back to the car to
> So I need suggestions... yesterday we got back from a lovely
get the rest of her things. At first she ignored me, so I politely
asked again. (Starting to feel the heat rise.) I asked her why she
wasn't replying and she said, "No." "No what?" "No I won't go to the
car." "Why not?" "I don't want to. I want to play with the dog." That
was it... I gave an authoritarian response. I believe I threatened a
consequence and she eventually went.
>as part of our schooling lessons, DS has been working hard to speak
> Because of conflict resolution exercises that we've been working on
politely too. Yesterday she was poking him with a cattail plant (part
of a writing lesson we were about to do) He said, "Miss T, please
stop...PLEASE!... MOM! Why won't she listen?!" She wouldn't listen to
me either so I took it away.
>doesn't work and authoritarian does. My friends would say I'm
> So that microcosm of conversations felt as though gentle-speak
confusing her with gentle-speak by making her feel as though the task
is optional. They would say that kids and pets feel more secure when
they get clear commands and they don't want a friend.
>
> What could I have done differently?
>
> Jeanne (sorry about the long post)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
On Jul 8, 2004, at 8:59 AM, Jeanne Goodman wrote:
If your child wasn't "allowed" to say "no" then you weren't really
ASKING her. If you request something then you need to be prepared for
a "no" too. You should have just gone out to the car yourself and
gotten the rest of the items or you could have asked her if she'd do it
for you later (again with the option of saying "no"). Threatening her
or using punishments isn't causing her to want to do you any favors.
KWIM?
-Tracy-
> So I need suggestions... yesterday we got back from a lovely afternoonJeanne,
> at the pool. I asked dd (7.98yo) to go back to the car to get the rest
> of her things. At first she ignored me, so I politely asked again.
> (Starting to feel the heat rise.) I asked her why she wasn't replying
> and she said, "No." "No what?" "No I won't go to the car." "Why not?"
> "I don't want to. I want to play with the dog." That was it... I gave
> an authoritarian response. I believe I threatened a consequence and
> she eventually went.
If your child wasn't "allowed" to say "no" then you weren't really
ASKING her. If you request something then you need to be prepared for
a "no" too. You should have just gone out to the car yourself and
gotten the rest of the items or you could have asked her if she'd do it
for you later (again with the option of saying "no"). Threatening her
or using punishments isn't causing her to want to do you any favors.
KWIM?
-Tracy-
Robyn Coburn
<<<Instead of "would you please go get me a diaper?" you
say "get mom a diaper" or "get mom a diaper please". This is based
on *The Continuum Concept* of parenting. Here is a link to an
article that you might find interesting. I sure did. :)
http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/restoringHarmony.html
Restoring Harmony: A Mother's Story
by Abigail Warren >>>
This "iron fist in a velvet glove"/parents know best/no choices for kids is
exactly what turned me soundly off the Continuum Concept.
Alternatively you could have genuinely asked (instead of pretending to ask
but really telling) your daughter to do something that was slightly
important to you, and then cheerfully accepted that she had a perfectly good
reason for saying "no" at the time. Just as sometimes she will ask you for
something and you will have a real reason for saying "no". What a shame she
had to interrupt her important playing with the dog for something that
probably was parental convenience rather than something urgent or crucial
(like a life or limb threatening safety issue).
Whilever her priorities and ideas of importance are treated as less valid
than yours, she will probably continue to fight for them.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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say "get mom a diaper" or "get mom a diaper please". This is based
on *The Continuum Concept* of parenting. Here is a link to an
article that you might find interesting. I sure did. :)
http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/restoringHarmony.html
Restoring Harmony: A Mother's Story
by Abigail Warren >>>
This "iron fist in a velvet glove"/parents know best/no choices for kids is
exactly what turned me soundly off the Continuum Concept.
Alternatively you could have genuinely asked (instead of pretending to ask
but really telling) your daughter to do something that was slightly
important to you, and then cheerfully accepted that she had a perfectly good
reason for saying "no" at the time. Just as sometimes she will ask you for
something and you will have a real reason for saying "no". What a shame she
had to interrupt her important playing with the dog for something that
probably was parental convenience rather than something urgent or crucial
(like a life or limb threatening safety issue).
Whilever her priorities and ideas of importance are treated as less valid
than yours, she will probably continue to fight for them.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 7/2/2004
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
little. I think I tend to claim I'm giving choices when I'm not, so
it can be good to be clear about that. Last week my kids had a
stomach bug that resulted in lots and lots of poopy diapers. Mikey
got diaper rash pretty bad because I wasn't checking him every 5
minutes at first. He got really scared of diaper changes and I tried
to give him some choices of how to do it, but it just didn't work. He
was scared, it was hurting, it was going to get worse with time and I
had no intention of waiting more than a couple minutes. The only
thing that made it better was getting it over and there was no way he
was going to choose any particular method. My giving choices just
dragged out the process, I'm afraid.
Also, when we have somewhere to be at a certain time (or when someone
is waiting for us), I'm not giving the kids a choice, so it's not
good to say "you don't want to be late, do you?" or "do you want to
go?"
Neither of these are common, thankfully. I don't go many places the
kids don't want to go! When I do get protests, it's usually an effort
to be heard and taking a couple minutes to listen almost always
resolves everything.
--aj
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
> This "iron fist in a velvet glove"/parents know best/no choices forkids is
> exactly what turned me soundly off the Continuum Concept.Yeh, I think it has very limited usefulness, but it helped me a
little. I think I tend to claim I'm giving choices when I'm not, so
it can be good to be clear about that. Last week my kids had a
stomach bug that resulted in lots and lots of poopy diapers. Mikey
got diaper rash pretty bad because I wasn't checking him every 5
minutes at first. He got really scared of diaper changes and I tried
to give him some choices of how to do it, but it just didn't work. He
was scared, it was hurting, it was going to get worse with time and I
had no intention of waiting more than a couple minutes. The only
thing that made it better was getting it over and there was no way he
was going to choose any particular method. My giving choices just
dragged out the process, I'm afraid.
Also, when we have somewhere to be at a certain time (or when someone
is waiting for us), I'm not giving the kids a choice, so it's not
good to say "you don't want to be late, do you?" or "do you want to
go?"
Neither of these are common, thankfully. I don't go many places the
kids don't want to go! When I do get protests, it's usually an effort
to be heard and taking a couple minutes to listen almost always
resolves everything.
--aj
Robyn Coburn
<<<Yeh, I think it has very limited usefulness, but it helped me a
little. I think I tend to claim I'm giving choices when I'm not, so
it can be good to be clear about that. Last week my kids had a
stomach bug that resulted in lots and lots of poopy diapers. Mikey
got diaper rash pretty bad because I wasn't checking him every 5
minutes at first. He got really scared of diaper changes and I tried
to give him some choices of how to do it, but it just didn't work. He
was scared, it was hurting, it was going to get worse with time and I
had no intention of waiting more than a couple minutes. The only
thing that made it better was getting it over and there was no way he
was going to choose any particular method. My giving choices just
dragged out the process, I'm afraid.>>>
Poor little guy. Jayn had some painful "acidy" poops for a while when a baby
that meant she had to be changed instantly or get a sore rash. Hope he feels
better soon. Can he run about outside without any dydee for a while?
<<<Also, when we have somewhere to be at a certain time (or when someone
is waiting for us), I'm not giving the kids a choice, so it's not
good to say "you don't want to be late, do you?" or "do you want to
go?"
Neither of these are common, thankfully. I don't go many places the
kids don't want to go! When I do get protests, it's usually an effort
to be heard and taking a couple minutes to listen almost always
resolves everything.>>>
This makes sense because it is a context of a real situation and genuine
reason to be somewhere. The CC seems to make it a habitual state of affairs
that children simply be told. I remember the example of the girl at the
restaurant and her father ordered for her without consultation. I just went
"ughh" at the time. Also that parents should not play with their children in
the kid's games, only allow the children to imitate adults.
Sometimes Jayn's protests resolve after listening. However on several recent
occasions we have decided not to go because she was truly miserable about
the errand. There are times when we believe errands are crucial and time
sensitive when they are really just a matter of convenience. Sometimes it is
really about: dh just doesn't want to go himself (too lazy - I mean really
that is the reason - he's not working, he has loads of free time) so he gets
angry that I didn't force Jayn to go out.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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little. I think I tend to claim I'm giving choices when I'm not, so
it can be good to be clear about that. Last week my kids had a
stomach bug that resulted in lots and lots of poopy diapers. Mikey
got diaper rash pretty bad because I wasn't checking him every 5
minutes at first. He got really scared of diaper changes and I tried
to give him some choices of how to do it, but it just didn't work. He
was scared, it was hurting, it was going to get worse with time and I
had no intention of waiting more than a couple minutes. The only
thing that made it better was getting it over and there was no way he
was going to choose any particular method. My giving choices just
dragged out the process, I'm afraid.>>>
Poor little guy. Jayn had some painful "acidy" poops for a while when a baby
that meant she had to be changed instantly or get a sore rash. Hope he feels
better soon. Can he run about outside without any dydee for a while?
<<<Also, when we have somewhere to be at a certain time (or when someone
is waiting for us), I'm not giving the kids a choice, so it's not
good to say "you don't want to be late, do you?" or "do you want to
go?"
Neither of these are common, thankfully. I don't go many places the
kids don't want to go! When I do get protests, it's usually an effort
to be heard and taking a couple minutes to listen almost always
resolves everything.>>>
This makes sense because it is a context of a real situation and genuine
reason to be somewhere. The CC seems to make it a habitual state of affairs
that children simply be told. I remember the example of the girl at the
restaurant and her father ordered for her without consultation. I just went
"ughh" at the time. Also that parents should not play with their children in
the kid's games, only allow the children to imitate adults.
Sometimes Jayn's protests resolve after listening. However on several recent
occasions we have decided not to go because she was truly miserable about
the errand. There are times when we believe errands are crucial and time
sensitive when they are really just a matter of convenience. Sometimes it is
really about: dh just doesn't want to go himself (too lazy - I mean really
that is the reason - he's not working, he has loads of free time) so he gets
angry that I didn't force Jayn to go out.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 7/2/2004
[email protected]
I am slowly weaning myself from the idea that all of this is my job. Not sure
if it has anything to do with gently parenting. But I figure if the shoes are
in the car, they're in the car. They're not my shoes. I like mine to be in
the shoe basket in the garage (or near it anyway :) ).
Pool stuff staying in the car can be stinky though -- towels have to come in,
right? But they don't have to come in right this minute.
Later, when everyone is cooled down a little, it is literally 99.5 degrees in
my backyard right now, I might say, "somebody come and help me get this pool
junk out of the car." Somebody usually does.
And if it's just me getting the junk, I just get the towels I was worried
about. The rest of the stuff -- well, that's yours and you know where it is and
it doesn't bother me that it's on the backseat floor.
OTOH, I'm no Martha Stewart. :)
Nance
In a message dated 7/8/2004 3:44:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
if it has anything to do with gently parenting. But I figure if the shoes are
in the car, they're in the car. They're not my shoes. I like mine to be in
the shoe basket in the garage (or near it anyway :) ).
Pool stuff staying in the car can be stinky though -- towels have to come in,
right? But they don't have to come in right this minute.
Later, when everyone is cooled down a little, it is literally 99.5 degrees in
my backyard right now, I might say, "somebody come and help me get this pool
junk out of the car." Somebody usually does.
And if it's just me getting the junk, I just get the towels I was worried
about. The rest of the stuff -- well, that's yours and you know where it is and
it doesn't bother me that it's on the backseat floor.
OTOH, I'm no Martha Stewart. :)
Nance
In a message dated 7/8/2004 3:44:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> So I need suggestions... yesterday we got back from a lovely afternoonJeanne,
> at the pool. I asked dd (7.98yo) to go back to the car to get the rest
> of her things. At first she ignored me, so I politely asked again.
> (Starting to feel the heat rise.) I asked her why she wasn't replying
> and she said, "No." "No what?" "No I won't go to the car." "Why not?"
> "I don't want to. I want to play with the dog." That was it... I gave
> an authoritarian response. I believe I threatened a consequence and
> she eventually went.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Valerie
>for kids is exactly what turned me soundly off the Continuum
> This "iron fist in a velvet glove"/parents know best/no choices
Concept.
****** ditto ditto ditto ditto... I can't say "ditto" enough.
love, Valerie
earthmothergypsy
Just to clarify, :) It was just this article that I liked. I have
never read the book.
~Amanda
--- In [email protected], "Valerie" <valerie@u...>
wrote:
never read the book.
~Amanda
--- In [email protected], "Valerie" <valerie@u...>
wrote:
> >
> > This "iron fist in a velvet glove"/parents know best/no choices
> for kids is exactly what turned me soundly off the Continuum
> Concept.
>
> ****** ditto ditto ditto ditto... I can't say "ditto" enough.
>
> love, Valerie
Jeanne Goodman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@...>
"Alternatively you could have genuinely asked (instead of pretending to ask
but really telling) your daughter to do something that was slightly
important to you, and then cheerfully accepted that she had a perfectly good
reason for saying "no" at the time. Just as sometimes she will ask you for
something and you will have a real reason for saying "no". What a shame she
had to interrupt her important playing with the dog for something that
probably was parental convenience rather than something urgent or crucial
(like a life or limb threatening safety issue)."
Ok now you're getting to the point I wanted to address. I hope you don't
consider this an attack -- it's intended as a legitimate query.
It seems to me that my children would rather do anything rather than pick up
after themselves. So if it hadn't been the dog it would have been the t.v.
or the computer or ... whatever. Does that mean that I should expect to do
anything myself that they don't feel like doing?
What I hadn't mentioned in my original post was that as we approached the
house I reminded both children that Mr. B had cleaned the car very nicely
and I'd like to keep it that way so please bring all of your stuff in the
house with you. Miss T couldn't carry it all so I reminded her that she
could do it in more than one trip if she wants. She brought in one load,
went to the bathroom and then started playing with the dog leaving the bulk
of her belongings in the car.
So the problem that I have with speaking to them as I would speak to adults
is that adults don't just capriciously say "No" and leave you with all the
work (or at least the adults I know usually don't.)
Jeanne
Dana Matt
> So the problem that I have with speaking to them asBut as adults, we have the power to say "No, I like to
> I would speak to adults
> is that adults don't just capriciously say "No" and
> leave you with all the
> work (or at least the adults I know usually don't.)
>
> Jeanne
keep stuff in the car..."
I hate to bring in stuff from the car. I never do it.
Consequently, when I am anywhere and we
need....ANYTHING, I have it in the car. I LOVE to be
able to do this. I have swimming suits, towels,
trucks, books, food, drinks, shovels, bowls,
plates...you name it, I have it in there. This drives
my husband crazy. He says "Can't you clean out your
car?" I say "The next time we get somewhere where YOU
need sunscreen or a candy bar, you will thank me."
and he has. But he drives a perfectly empty car, and
I drive a perfectly full one. It's not disrespectful
of me to NOT clean out my car because he asked me to
years ago....I told him my feelings on the subject,
and he would be treating me with disrespect if he kept
harping on it....
Dana
in MOntana
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[email protected]
I want to thank everyone on the opinions I agree that she should do her own
thing and i am going to let her-- I will show DH the e mails so he knows hat i
am talking about....
another question..... at 12, how much privacy is too much? she will go in
her room and unless I make her keep the door open it is shut ALWAYS-- we have
air conditioning in the house and the only way her room cools is if the door
is open.......
I do monitor where and who she talks to on the computere thru mine-- we have
a network here, and i check hers once in a while when i have to run clean up
programs on it... I only check it for her protection ...
I am so glad i found this list!!!
Lin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thing and i am going to let her-- I will show DH the e mails so he knows hat i
am talking about....
another question..... at 12, how much privacy is too much? she will go in
her room and unless I make her keep the door open it is shut ALWAYS-- we have
air conditioning in the house and the only way her room cools is if the door
is open.......
I do monitor where and who she talks to on the computere thru mine-- we have
a network here, and i check hers once in a while when i have to run clean up
programs on it... I only check it for her protection ...
I am so glad i found this list!!!
Lin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jon and Rue Kream
>>at 12, how much privacy is too much?**She's the only one who knows how much privacy she needs. I'd just respect
her decisions to keep her door open or closed.
>>the only way her room cools is if the dooris open.......
**Does she have fans? If she keeps the door closed all the time can she
open her windows? One thing I do on hot nights is to wrap an ice pack in a
thin towel and put it at the foot of my bed. It keeps me cool all night.
Is she complaining of being uncomfortably hot?
>>I do monitor where and who she talks to on the computere thru mine**Dagny (who's 11) has a laptop in her room. She has lots of friends on
message boards and friends she IMs with. She uses the Internet every day.
We have a very open, close relationship and I know she'd feel I was invading
her privacy and feel a lack of trust on my part if I monitored her computer
use. It's something we've talked about when we've seen those commercials for
parental blocks. As it is, she tells me lots about who she talks to and
what's up with them and what neat websites she's found. I know that if she
came across anything or anyone she wasn't comfortable about she would come
to me (she has a couple of times). ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<It seems to me that my children would rather do anything rather than pick
up after themselves. So if it hadn't been the dog it would have been the
t.v. or the computer or ... whatever. Does that mean that I should expect
to do anything myself that they don't feel like doing?>>
To be honest I also would rather do just about anything fun than pick up
after myself. It sounds like a sane and sensible ordering of personal
priorities. What I do to avoid housework is get on line. ;)
However, kidding aside, at our house the answer to that question is really
simply "yes", if it is important to *you*. I guess what you might ask
yourself is whether you are trying to "teach" her some kind of lesson by
forcing responsibility on her. Most people here recommend modeling and
kindness instead.
<<<What I hadn't mentioned in my original post was that as we approached the
house I reminded both children that Mr. B had cleaned the car very nicely
and I'd like to keep it that way so please bring all of your stuff in the
house with you. Miss T couldn't carry it all so I reminded her that she
could do it in more than one trip if she wants. She brought in one load,
went to the bathroom and then started playing with the dog leaving the bulk
of her belongings in the car.>>>
I would urge you to look at this way of speaking again. It sounds like you
were trying to "guilt" and manipulate your kids. They are not very likely to
look at Mr. B's efforts very cordially or with gratitude if the result is
that you use them as a reason that they then have to do stuff they don't
want to. I wonder why she couldn't go get "her belongings" when she needed
them.
<<<So the problem that I have with speaking to them as I would speak to
adults is that adults don't just capriciously say "No" and leave you with
all the work (or at least the adults I know usually don't.)>>>
My experience has been that it is more *not* saying things that you would
not say to an adult because those things are disrespectful in that context,
so they are just as disrespectful of the child. Also if an adult said, "I
can't help you with that right now, because I'm doing something" wouldn't
you respect that? Would you assume they were being capricious, or maybe
genuinely tired/distracted/in need of a break and intending to do it later,
unless they forgot.
You might enjoy reading some of the things at www.sandradodd.com
She has a section about chores.
Robyn L. Coburn
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up after themselves. So if it hadn't been the dog it would have been the
t.v. or the computer or ... whatever. Does that mean that I should expect
to do anything myself that they don't feel like doing?>>
To be honest I also would rather do just about anything fun than pick up
after myself. It sounds like a sane and sensible ordering of personal
priorities. What I do to avoid housework is get on line. ;)
However, kidding aside, at our house the answer to that question is really
simply "yes", if it is important to *you*. I guess what you might ask
yourself is whether you are trying to "teach" her some kind of lesson by
forcing responsibility on her. Most people here recommend modeling and
kindness instead.
<<<What I hadn't mentioned in my original post was that as we approached the
house I reminded both children that Mr. B had cleaned the car very nicely
and I'd like to keep it that way so please bring all of your stuff in the
house with you. Miss T couldn't carry it all so I reminded her that she
could do it in more than one trip if she wants. She brought in one load,
went to the bathroom and then started playing with the dog leaving the bulk
of her belongings in the car.>>>
I would urge you to look at this way of speaking again. It sounds like you
were trying to "guilt" and manipulate your kids. They are not very likely to
look at Mr. B's efforts very cordially or with gratitude if the result is
that you use them as a reason that they then have to do stuff they don't
want to. I wonder why she couldn't go get "her belongings" when she needed
them.
<<<So the problem that I have with speaking to them as I would speak to
adults is that adults don't just capriciously say "No" and leave you with
all the work (or at least the adults I know usually don't.)>>>
My experience has been that it is more *not* saying things that you would
not say to an adult because those things are disrespectful in that context,
so they are just as disrespectful of the child. Also if an adult said, "I
can't help you with that right now, because I'm doing something" wouldn't
you respect that? Would you assume they were being capricious, or maybe
genuinely tired/distracted/in need of a break and intending to do it later,
unless they forgot.
You might enjoy reading some of the things at www.sandradodd.com
She has a section about chores.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 7/2/2004
[email protected]
I just wonder if there was a reason your daughter didn't want to go back to
the car. May have been and she didn't let you know what it was.
syndi
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the car. May have been and she didn't let you know what it was.
syndi
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jeanne Goodman
"I just wonder if there was a reason your daughter didn't want to go back to
the car. May have been and she didn't let you know what it was.
syndi"
Personally, I don't think that was the case, this time, but that's a good point. She seems to get these *random* fears of the dark or of our upstairs where she can't go alone. I'm listening carefully to the warnings on this list not to try to "desensitize" her. But this is becoming a drag for the family because we have to escort her to all sorts of places in the house. We're moving to cohousing next year so I think this will have an end, but if anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.
Jeanne in MA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the car. May have been and she didn't let you know what it was.
syndi"
Personally, I don't think that was the case, this time, but that's a good point. She seems to get these *random* fears of the dark or of our upstairs where she can't go alone. I'm listening carefully to the warnings on this list not to try to "desensitize" her. But this is becoming a drag for the family because we have to escort her to all sorts of places in the house. We're moving to cohousing next year so I think this will have an end, but if anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.
Jeanne in MA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<She seems to get these *random* fears of the dark or of our upstairs
where she can't go alone. I'm listening carefully to the warnings on this
list not to try to "desensitize" her. But this is becoming a drag for the
family because we have to escort her to all sorts of places in the house.
We're moving to cohousing next year so I think this will have an end, but if
anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.>>>
I hope this does not sound harsh or hurt anyone on this list, but I seem to
be the resident out-on-a-limb goer.
When I start to feel resentful (it does happen) about some little need that
Jayn has, that could seem to be a "drag", I remind myself how grateful I am
that she is here with me, alive and healthy, to have these nuisancy needs.
There is so much stuff that can go wrong, with a child's brain chemistry,
with a child's health, accidents - even here on this list there are kids who
have all kinds of physical issues that their parents have to deal with. Some
of these are horrendous, and even life threatening. Some people still
unschooling, have even lost a child. I bet they wish they had that "drag" on
their time. I salute their patience and bravery.
Honestly - do you really have so much else to do that caring for your
daughter's fears by "escorting" her places, is a drag for you? Can't you
make it your special task to save the rest of your family (I'm assuming her
sibling doesn't dig it much) from growing resentments?
The fears will get better on her own schedule, or never. But if you push her
because you fear inconveniencing someone else, you could create a lifelong
paranoia, or worse - erode her trust in you. Any time a child has to move to
a new living arrangement fears are likely to exacerbate for a while, not
lessen.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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where she can't go alone. I'm listening carefully to the warnings on this
list not to try to "desensitize" her. But this is becoming a drag for the
family because we have to escort her to all sorts of places in the house.
We're moving to cohousing next year so I think this will have an end, but if
anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.>>>
I hope this does not sound harsh or hurt anyone on this list, but I seem to
be the resident out-on-a-limb goer.
When I start to feel resentful (it does happen) about some little need that
Jayn has, that could seem to be a "drag", I remind myself how grateful I am
that she is here with me, alive and healthy, to have these nuisancy needs.
There is so much stuff that can go wrong, with a child's brain chemistry,
with a child's health, accidents - even here on this list there are kids who
have all kinds of physical issues that their parents have to deal with. Some
of these are horrendous, and even life threatening. Some people still
unschooling, have even lost a child. I bet they wish they had that "drag" on
their time. I salute their patience and bravery.
Honestly - do you really have so much else to do that caring for your
daughter's fears by "escorting" her places, is a drag for you? Can't you
make it your special task to save the rest of your family (I'm assuming her
sibling doesn't dig it much) from growing resentments?
The fears will get better on her own schedule, or never. But if you push her
because you fear inconveniencing someone else, you could create a lifelong
paranoia, or worse - erode her trust in you. Any time a child has to move to
a new living arrangement fears are likely to exacerbate for a while, not
lessen.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 7/2/2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/2004 8:44:37 PM Central Daylight Time,
goodmanj@... writes:
Personally, I don't think that was the case, this time, but that's a good
point. She seems to get these *random* fears of the dark or of our upstairs
where she can't go alone. I'm listening carefully to the warnings on this list
not to try to "desensitize" her. But this is becoming a drag for the family
because we have to escort her to all sorts of places in the house. We're moving
to cohousing next year so I think this will have an end, but if anyone has
any suggestions, I'm all ears.
Jeanne in MA
Boy , she's just like both of my kids! The youngest won't go upstairs alone
either, or to the bathroom. I do find it hard sometimes to just be quiet
and go with him, because usually i'm in the middle of doing something else when
he has to! His brother got over his fright of the upstairs sometime this
last year, he's 11 now so he got thru it at age 10. So, it might just take
time for your dd like it did for my oldest. I am hopeing though that his little
brother starts going alone alittle sooner! lol!!!!
ps...We just stopped ps last Oct., so i'm wondering if just the fact that my
oldest ds is home all the time has helped him to get to know his own home
better. ??
syndi
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
goodmanj@... writes:
Personally, I don't think that was the case, this time, but that's a good
point. She seems to get these *random* fears of the dark or of our upstairs
where she can't go alone. I'm listening carefully to the warnings on this list
not to try to "desensitize" her. But this is becoming a drag for the family
because we have to escort her to all sorts of places in the house. We're moving
to cohousing next year so I think this will have an end, but if anyone has
any suggestions, I'm all ears.
Jeanne in MA
Boy , she's just like both of my kids! The youngest won't go upstairs alone
either, or to the bathroom. I do find it hard sometimes to just be quiet
and go with him, because usually i'm in the middle of doing something else when
he has to! His brother got over his fright of the upstairs sometime this
last year, he's 11 now so he got thru it at age 10. So, it might just take
time for your dd like it did for my oldest. I am hopeing though that his little
brother starts going alone alittle sooner! lol!!!!
ps...We just stopped ps last Oct., so i'm wondering if just the fact that my
oldest ds is home all the time has helped him to get to know his own home
better. ??
syndi
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
On Jul 8, 2004, at 9:41 PM, Jeanne Goodman wrote:
were little and we always had to negotiate who was going to be the one
to turn off the light because neither one of us felt "safe" walking the
few steps from the switch to our bed. Creepy feeling! We would swipe
the switch and take a running LEAP onto the bed just in case there
really was a monster under the bed waiting to grab our ankles.
To this day I don't like walking on stairs that don't have a riser
(open underneath) -- it creeps me out. My sister is *really* creeped
out by those kind of stairs and bounds up them as quick as she can.
We're both right around 30! Sure we know that we're being paranoid ;)
but the feelings are there just the same.
When I was little I could really get myself worked up enough that I'd
actually image that I saw ghosts or a skeleton in the shadows. If I'd
have had a night light, a flashlight, a hand to hold and some kinds
words maybe it wouldn't have lasted for all the years that it did.
HER reality is that she doesn't feel safe. Dismissing her feels as
"silly" or a "drag" isn't doing her any favors, Mama. :)
-Tracy-
> [ Personally, I don't think that was the case, this time, but that's aI can relate to this myself. My sister and I shared a room when we
> good point. She seems to get these *random* fears of the dark or of
> our upstairs where she can't go alone. I'm listening carefully to the
> warnings on this list not to try to "desensitize" her. But this is
> becoming a drag for the family because we have to escort her to all
> sorts of places in the house. ]
were little and we always had to negotiate who was going to be the one
to turn off the light because neither one of us felt "safe" walking the
few steps from the switch to our bed. Creepy feeling! We would swipe
the switch and take a running LEAP onto the bed just in case there
really was a monster under the bed waiting to grab our ankles.
To this day I don't like walking on stairs that don't have a riser
(open underneath) -- it creeps me out. My sister is *really* creeped
out by those kind of stairs and bounds up them as quick as she can.
We're both right around 30! Sure we know that we're being paranoid ;)
but the feelings are there just the same.
When I was little I could really get myself worked up enough that I'd
actually image that I saw ghosts or a skeleton in the shadows. If I'd
have had a night light, a flashlight, a hand to hold and some kinds
words maybe it wouldn't have lasted for all the years that it did.
HER reality is that she doesn't feel safe. Dismissing her feels as
"silly" or a "drag" isn't doing her any favors, Mama. :)
-Tracy-
Michelle
I still feel this way, and I am pushing 36. We had these type of stairs going down to the basement when I was a child. It was an OLD house, and the only shower in the house was down there. To make matters worse, there was no light switch at the top of the stairs. I had to go down into the dark basement to turn it on, and walk up those stairs in the dark when leaving. It still creeps me out to think of it.
Michelle
TreeGoddess <treegoddess@...> wrote:
To this day I don't like walking on stairs that don't have a riser
(open underneath) -- it creeps me out. My sister is *really* creeped
out by those kind of stairs and bounds up them as quick as she can.
We're both right around 30! Sure we know that we're being paranoid ;)
but the feelings are there just the same.
__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle
TreeGoddess <treegoddess@...> wrote:
To this day I don't like walking on stairs that don't have a riser
(open underneath) -- it creeps me out. My sister is *really* creeped
out by those kind of stairs and bounds up them as quick as she can.
We're both right around 30! Sure we know that we're being paranoid ;)
but the feelings are there just the same.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
On Jul 8, 2004, at 11:18 PM, Michelle wrote:
-Tracy-
> I still feel this way, and I am pushing 36. We had these type ofEwww, Michelle, you're creeping ME out now, too! LOL
> stairs going down to the basement when I was a child. It was an OLD
> house, and the only shower in the house was down there. To make
> matters worse, there was no light switch at the top of the stairs. I
> had to go down into the dark basement to turn it on, and walk up those
> stairs in the dark when leaving. It still creeps me out to think of
> it.
-Tracy-
TreeGoddess
On Jul 8, 2004, at 7:26 PM, shellby@... wrote:
more cool air. Otherwise, it sounds like she's just being a 12yo girl
to me. LOL Once your home is more and more relaxed and joyful and she
isn't suspicious of your motives to change her you'll probably see her
door open more and more. Hang in there! :)
-Tracy-
> another question..... at 12, how much privacy is too much? she will goWell, I guess she'll open it up when she feels that she'd like to get
> in
> her room and unless I make her keep the door open it is shut ALWAYS--
> we have
> air conditioning in the house and the only way her room cools is if
> the door
> is open.......
more cool air. Otherwise, it sounds like she's just being a 12yo girl
to me. LOL Once your home is more and more relaxed and joyful and she
isn't suspicious of your motives to change her you'll probably see her
door open more and more. Hang in there! :)
-Tracy-
TreeGoddess
On Jul 8, 2004, at 6:32 PM, Jeanne Goodman wrote:
yourself. It's important to you, but it might not be important to your
kids or your DH. They may not see the reason that it's so important to
get X done -- or frankly, they might not care. LOL
Here I go again with another link to Sandra's site -- it's just so
chock full of goodies just there for the taking! How can I resist????
;) Here's her page on "chores". Enjoy!
http://sandradodd.com/chores
-Tracy-
> It seems to me that my children would rather do anything rather thanYep. LOL If it's YOU that wants X done then be prepared to do it
> pick up
> after themselves. So if it hadn't been the dog it would have been the
> t.v.
> or the computer or ... whatever. Does that mean that I should expect
> to do
> anything myself that they don't feel like doing?
yourself. It's important to you, but it might not be important to your
kids or your DH. They may not see the reason that it's so important to
get X done -- or frankly, they might not care. LOL
Here I go again with another link to Sandra's site -- it's just so
chock full of goodies just there for the taking! How can I resist????
;) Here's her page on "chores". Enjoy!
http://sandradodd.com/chores
-Tracy-
[email protected]
thanks for the sites from Sanda Tracy, i'm getting alot out of them!
syndi
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
syndi
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 7/8/04 9:41 PM, Jeanne Goodman at goodmanj@... wrote:
if she want beyond the core of where the family was, sort of, metaphorically
speaking, beyond the circle of light of the campfire. It seems to be
lessening with puberty.
But I had creepy feelings on the stairs going down to or coming up from the
basement until after college. And it was a finished basement so it wasn't
even creepy down there and I didn't have any mean siblings who would jump
out at me or anything.
Joyce
> But this is becoming a drag for the family because we have to escort her toPatience. My daughter has been like this her whole life. She needed company
> all sorts of places in the house. We're moving to cohousing next year so I
> think this will have an end, but if anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.
if she want beyond the core of where the family was, sort of, metaphorically
speaking, beyond the circle of light of the campfire. It seems to be
lessening with puberty.
But I had creepy feelings on the stairs going down to or coming up from the
basement until after college. And it was a finished basement so it wasn't
even creepy down there and I didn't have any mean siblings who would jump
out at me or anything.
Joyce
Fetteroll
on 7/8/04 6:32 PM, Jeanne Goodman at goodmanj@... wrote:
have) as not good enough and judge kids' reasons as "capricious".
Kids *do* see the world differently. But different isn't wrong. A child
might think it's ridiculous to put away toys when it's much easier to use
them when they're out to be seen. An adult might think it's dangerous to
leave them out because people could trip over them.
Is the child wrong? Is the adult right? No. Both are right from their own
point of view. What's wrong is when the adult determines the child's point
of view is wrong and the adult point of view needs to prevail.
What adults then end up modeling as a problem solving technique -- and it
must be a *good* technique since adults use it *a lot* -- is that the way to
resolve conflicts of interest is to be big and strong and make a weaker
person do it your way.
When we see kids solving problems that way, we get concerned that they're
becoming bullies. But we don't see that they learn that technique from us!
But what you're really saying is that kids generate a lot of mess and that
you resent them for "making" you clean up after them.
But they *aren't* making you clean up. You're *choosing* to keep the house
at a standard that makes you comfortable.
you get to do all the work, you're going to resent them.
Change will come when you can see with a new attitude or new point of view.
I suspect right now that you approach their helping as something you expect
and then you send out negative emotions when they don't. So they're stuck
between a rock and a hard place.
What if a friend volunteered cleaning up a park. What if she assumed since
you live in the town too that you had a duty to clean too. So when she asked
you to help, she wasn't really asking because no wasn't an acceptable answer
to her. She was "politely" telling you to get down to the park and help. But
when you did show up to help, her attitude was basically "Here's the jobs
that need done." And when you were done, her response was essentially
"Thanks. You can go now."
But what if another friend called and said she was in a bind. She said her
helpers hadn't shown up and she was desperately in need of help to clean up
the park before the afternoon concert. And what if she said she totally
understood that you had more important things to do but that she wouldn't
ask if she wasn't in great need. And then when you showed up you could feel
and hear she was very greatful. And afterwards what if she offered to take
you to lunch or take the kids for the day to show her appreciation?
Which friend would you be more likely to help? Which friend would you likely
do the barest minimum for so you could escape? Which friend would you likely
pull the curtains on if you saw coming up the walk?
When we appraoch chores with the attitude that it's kids duty to help and
give them grudging thanks for doing what they're "supposed" to do and flak
if they don't, it doesn't encourage them to help. It encourages them to
avoid us and anything that looks like work.
If we take full responsibility for all chores in the house and *ask* for
help -- knowing they can say no -- and assume they're doing their best even
if it isn't as much as we would like and truly appreciate them taking time
from more interesting things to do us a favor, then we can be people they
want to help.
If parents have been authoritarian it takes a while for kids to catch onto
the new attitude. They'll still hear authoritarian even when we don't mean
it. They'll still hear questions as demands even if we intend for them to be
true questions.
It will help if you invite kids to do fun things with you that will help. Or
to just spend time with you to keep you company. You can ask them to do a
little thing to help out, like something that needs three hands. And
appreciate their help. And their company :-)
There isn't really an easy answer. It's emotianally draining being
authoritarian, getting everyone to do what they're "supposed" to do. But it
is straightforward to explain to others. If you want your kids to do x, then
you do y.
Gentle parenting is something else. It isn't about getting them to do what
you want. It's about living together peacefully. Part of living peacefully
is wanting to be together and help each other. But there isn't a way to
*make* kids do that. It comes from projecting an attitude of appreciation
for them being in your life. And if they feel that, they'll want to return
it.
Joyce
> So the problem that I have with speaking to them as I would speak to adultsNeither do kids. But adults will judge the reasons kids have (or seem to
> is that adults don't just capriciously say "No" and leave you with all the
> work (or at least the adults I know usually don't.)
have) as not good enough and judge kids' reasons as "capricious".
Kids *do* see the world differently. But different isn't wrong. A child
might think it's ridiculous to put away toys when it's much easier to use
them when they're out to be seen. An adult might think it's dangerous to
leave them out because people could trip over them.
Is the child wrong? Is the adult right? No. Both are right from their own
point of view. What's wrong is when the adult determines the child's point
of view is wrong and the adult point of view needs to prevail.
What adults then end up modeling as a problem solving technique -- and it
must be a *good* technique since adults use it *a lot* -- is that the way to
resolve conflicts of interest is to be big and strong and make a weaker
person do it your way.
When we see kids solving problems that way, we get concerned that they're
becoming bullies. But we don't see that they learn that technique from us!
> It seems to me that my children would rather do anything rather than pick upMe too.
> after themselves.
But what you're really saying is that kids generate a lot of mess and that
you resent them for "making" you clean up after them.
But they *aren't* making you clean up. You're *choosing* to keep the house
at a standard that makes you comfortable.
> So if it hadn't been the dog it would have been the t.v.Yes and no. If you go into it with the attitude that they get to play while
> or the computer or ... whatever. Does that mean that I should expect to do
> anything myself that they don't feel like doing?
you get to do all the work, you're going to resent them.
Change will come when you can see with a new attitude or new point of view.
I suspect right now that you approach their helping as something you expect
and then you send out negative emotions when they don't. So they're stuck
between a rock and a hard place.
What if a friend volunteered cleaning up a park. What if she assumed since
you live in the town too that you had a duty to clean too. So when she asked
you to help, she wasn't really asking because no wasn't an acceptable answer
to her. She was "politely" telling you to get down to the park and help. But
when you did show up to help, her attitude was basically "Here's the jobs
that need done." And when you were done, her response was essentially
"Thanks. You can go now."
But what if another friend called and said she was in a bind. She said her
helpers hadn't shown up and she was desperately in need of help to clean up
the park before the afternoon concert. And what if she said she totally
understood that you had more important things to do but that she wouldn't
ask if she wasn't in great need. And then when you showed up you could feel
and hear she was very greatful. And afterwards what if she offered to take
you to lunch or take the kids for the day to show her appreciation?
Which friend would you be more likely to help? Which friend would you likely
do the barest minimum for so you could escape? Which friend would you likely
pull the curtains on if you saw coming up the walk?
When we appraoch chores with the attitude that it's kids duty to help and
give them grudging thanks for doing what they're "supposed" to do and flak
if they don't, it doesn't encourage them to help. It encourages them to
avoid us and anything that looks like work.
If we take full responsibility for all chores in the house and *ask* for
help -- knowing they can say no -- and assume they're doing their best even
if it isn't as much as we would like and truly appreciate them taking time
from more interesting things to do us a favor, then we can be people they
want to help.
If parents have been authoritarian it takes a while for kids to catch onto
the new attitude. They'll still hear authoritarian even when we don't mean
it. They'll still hear questions as demands even if we intend for them to be
true questions.
It will help if you invite kids to do fun things with you that will help. Or
to just spend time with you to keep you company. You can ask them to do a
little thing to help out, like something that needs three hands. And
appreciate their help. And their company :-)
There isn't really an easy answer. It's emotianally draining being
authoritarian, getting everyone to do what they're "supposed" to do. But it
is straightforward to explain to others. If you want your kids to do x, then
you do y.
Gentle parenting is something else. It isn't about getting them to do what
you want. It's about living together peacefully. Part of living peacefully
is wanting to be together and help each other. But there isn't a way to
*make* kids do that. It comes from projecting an attitude of appreciation
for them being in your life. And if they feel that, they'll want to return
it.
Joyce
Jeanne Goodman
Thank you all for a ton of suggestions. You have given me a lot to think about. I'll let you know how I'm doing with your suggestions -- this sure isn't as easy as it sounds.
Jeanne in MA
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Jeanne in MA
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TreeGoddess
On Jul 9, 2004, at 5:17 AM, Onesnotenough@... wrote:
help to me and it really makes me *think*.
-Tracy-
> thanks for the sites from Sanda Tracy, i'm getting alot out of them!Sure thing, Syndi! I love Sandra's web site. It was and is so much
help to me and it really makes me *think*.
-Tracy-
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/9/2004 7:54:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
goodmanj@... writes:
Thank you all for a ton of suggestions. You have given me a lot to think
about. I'll let you know how I'm doing with your suggestions -- this sure isn't
as easy as it sounds.<<<<<
Not easy. Simple, but hard.
But it gets easier and easier as you go along---to the point that it's just
second nature---and joyful and good.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
goodmanj@... writes:
Thank you all for a ton of suggestions. You have given me a lot to think
about. I'll let you know how I'm doing with your suggestions -- this sure isn't
as easy as it sounds.<<<<<
Not easy. Simple, but hard.
But it gets easier and easier as you go along---to the point that it's just
second nature---and joyful and good.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/2004 11:26:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
treegoddess@... writes:
Once your home is more and more relaxed and joyful and she
isn't suspicious of your motives to change her you'll probably see her
door open more and more. Hang in there! :)
M's father and i talked about the sleeping pattersn which were disturbing to
us, and i had already decided to just let it be and see what happens with
it, last night i met her at 3am when i was getting up for the bathroom- she
had just gotten up- all i said was good morning to her and she sort of looked
at me like- where's the lecture?-- she didnt get one
then she came out at 5:30 to sit on the porch with me to watch her dad leave
for work and announced she had just been talking to a friend in NY!!! so
there is at least ONE other person awake at that hour! LOL
Parenting isnt new to me but parenting this way is- we have been unschooling
for 4 years, this is my second marrige and second set of kids the girls form
the firat marrige went to regular school-- a "normal" life by the rest of
the world's standards i guess. These kids were take out of school M in the
third grade and H in the 6th she was steadfastly refusing to do anything in
school especially with math and theu werent helping her at all she would be
sent home and not a word from the school on how she was doing!! I only found out
when the end of the year came!! so that was it, out she came!! my son was
constantly harassed because he was a peaceful kid, not wanting to fight but
having to just to get thru a day. then i heard the reports of knives and guns
and drugs and that was the end of it. that condition still exists here in
the schools. some of his friends he had from school are in jail or
probation... on drugs, pregnant.... neither of my children are into drugs, alcohol,
violence except for online games which they know is entertainment and not real
life.... big difference even if most folks think we are odd for not sending
them to school-- then i will remain odd if it means my kids arent exposed
to something that could kill or maim them!I am seriously thinking of doing the
same with my grand daughter, she is 10 mos old right now and living with us.
Lin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
treegoddess@... writes:
Once your home is more and more relaxed and joyful and she
isn't suspicious of your motives to change her you'll probably see her
door open more and more. Hang in there! :)
M's father and i talked about the sleeping pattersn which were disturbing to
us, and i had already decided to just let it be and see what happens with
it, last night i met her at 3am when i was getting up for the bathroom- she
had just gotten up- all i said was good morning to her and she sort of looked
at me like- where's the lecture?-- she didnt get one
then she came out at 5:30 to sit on the porch with me to watch her dad leave
for work and announced she had just been talking to a friend in NY!!! so
there is at least ONE other person awake at that hour! LOL
Parenting isnt new to me but parenting this way is- we have been unschooling
for 4 years, this is my second marrige and second set of kids the girls form
the firat marrige went to regular school-- a "normal" life by the rest of
the world's standards i guess. These kids were take out of school M in the
third grade and H in the 6th she was steadfastly refusing to do anything in
school especially with math and theu werent helping her at all she would be
sent home and not a word from the school on how she was doing!! I only found out
when the end of the year came!! so that was it, out she came!! my son was
constantly harassed because he was a peaceful kid, not wanting to fight but
having to just to get thru a day. then i heard the reports of knives and guns
and drugs and that was the end of it. that condition still exists here in
the schools. some of his friends he had from school are in jail or
probation... on drugs, pregnant.... neither of my children are into drugs, alcohol,
violence except for online games which they know is entertainment and not real
life.... big difference even if most folks think we are odd for not sending
them to school-- then i will remain odd if it means my kids arent exposed
to something that could kill or maim them!I am seriously thinking of doing the
same with my grand daughter, she is 10 mos old right now and living with us.
Lin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]