Nanci Kuykendall

>I've been looking into Intentional communities for a
>year or so and am DYING to be in one. I too have an
>uninterested husband. I really think though that if
>he gave it a chance he would find the 'honest work
>with a clear purpose' very fulfilling.

I don't believe that a spouse should stand in the way
of your dreams. Spouses should help you realize your
dreams, as you help them realize theirs. But that's
just me.

I will say however, that I was just discussing this
last night with a couple people. Women crave
community, and feel free in our culture to seek it in
many ways: at work, with moms, through hobbies and
interests, etc. Men crave community as well, and
desire to be approved of and emotionally supported.
But in our culture they are not free to persue that,
except in a mostly superficial way. I think that men
stand to benefit MORE than women socially in
community, because they get what they don't have
anywhere else usually, and in many cases did not even
realize they were lacking.

Men in our culture have this "lone wolf" image. They
are not supposed to need anyone, can stand on their
own, are knowledgeable and strong and independent.
When they have a family, they still have this "head of
the household, man of the house, breadwinner" dynamic
going on, even if they are not the main income for the
family.)

It's all a crock of hooey as far as I am concerned.
Men need people and are social creatures just like
women. They suffer doubt as much as we do (although
they are not as permitted to show it without shame)
and they benefit from emotional support (although they
are not free to seek it without ridicule) and they
need good friends of their own sex (although real
relationships between men on our culture are few and
precious because of their social expectations.)

Men are mostly afraid of change, because the unknown
could bring embarrassment and expose their faults.
They are not as cultrually permitted to have faults.
They are terrified of failure too. They are not
comfortable following intuition to realize dreams and
goals without facts and logic and caution supporting
those moves. So they resist community because of
these many reasons, but once they get there, they are
overjoyed and become it's staunchest proponents and
protectors. They take up the mantle of village men as
easily as breathing, and shake the burden of aloneness
as quickly as a wet coat.

This is what I have seen in men in Intentional
Community. They become strong voices for education
and change about the way boys are raised and the
cultural expectations and design. They become
fascinated with interpersonal relationship dynamics,
of which they have had little experience usually.
Women crave community, but men benefit just as much,
or more, from it.

Nanci K.

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/24/02 1:40:46 PM, aisliin@... writes:

<< Men in our culture have this "lone wolf" image. They
are not supposed to need anyone, can stand on their
own, are knowledgeable and strong and independent.
When they have a family, they still have this "head of
the household, man of the house, breadwinner" dynamic
going on, even if they are not the main income for the
family.) >>

I just watched "Witness" again this week. Harrison Ford drama, involving the
Amish.

The whole barnraising scene was fascinating for the male interactions.

At one point in the story he's seriously considering staying there with them
and living within that culture.

<<It's all a crock of hooey as far as I am concerned.
Men need people and are social creatures just like
women. >>

Men and women are not just the same. The women's movement tried with words
to make it so, but it's not so.

Women pass culture. Men take care of the physical plant and they hunt and
maintain safety.

I know there's a ton of overlap, in definition and task, but women's social
needs (instincts) are not the same as men's.

Lots of people I know thought so too until they had children who were not all
male or female, and they changed their minds.

-=-They are not
comfortable following intuition to realize dreams and
goals without facts and logic and caution supporting
those moves. -=-

There's one of those differences.

How about hermits? Men. Those who live alone in cabins in the mountains or
in caves or whatever are male. When women live as hermits they create a
culture with 35 cats. (Stereotype, or something many of us have seen?)

-=-Women crave community, but men benefit just as much,
or more, from it.-=-

That I absolutely believe.

So I guess the only part that offended me was the "Crock" (which is short for
crock of sh*t) because I don't think men and women are the same.

I've seen men become fascinated with interpersonals at a later age, too.
It's fun.

I think Gardner's multiple intelligences are fun to play with, and I think
some are definitely stronger in men, and interpersonal/intrapersonal isn't
one of them.

Those male friends I was talking about having in the unschooling forum this
week are every one really good at interpersonals, and a big reason they talk
to me is because I'll discuss that with them. Many of their male friends
just look at them quizzically, because they don't see those subtle
interpersonal things. So they run their observations by me, because I've
been doing that thing since we were little, and they remember.

Sandra






Sandra

Nanci Kuykendall

<<It's all a crock of hooey as far as I am concerned.
Men need people and are social creatures just like
women. >>

>Men and women are not just the same. The women's
>movement tried with words to make it so, but it's not
>so.

-=-Women crave community, but men benefit just as
much,
or more, from it.-=-

>That I absolutely believe.
>So I guess the only part that offended me was >the
"Crock" (which is short for crock of sh*t) >because I
don't think men and women are the same.
>Sandra

Yeah, I didn't want to cuss here. This is not the
Totallyinsane list after all :)

I certainly did not mean to imply that men and women
were the same, but I guess I did. I don't believe
that at all. What I meant was that men and women are
both "social creatures" or part of a race of social
animals, if you will, not that their social needs were
identical. They are not.

I recognize the fact that not only is our body
chemistry different, but the function of our brains
are different from men. We are wired differently for
different tasks. But Men need and benefit from
community just as much or more so than women, in
GENERAL (yes there are exceptions, odd birds, hermits,
etc). Men benefit from having same sex deep and
supportive friendships, they benefit from not having
to carry the burden of being the adult male alone,
they benefit from being part of a larger group,
mentoring younger males, learning from older males,
respecting and interacting with the famles of the
group in different ways than is typical in our
culture. The whole village/community structure is
beneficial for them, growing up, and as adults.

That was what I meant, that men need more and
different and better social interaction than they get
in modern western culture. I meant that men and women
are both people, and all people need this. I didn't
mean they should persue it in exactly the same manner
or for exactly the same reasons. I hope that is more
clear.

Nanci K.

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/25/02 11:05:05 AM, aisliin@... writes:

<< That was what I meant, that men need more and
different and better social interaction than they get
in modern western culture. >>

I totally agree with that. Now I see what you meant was a crock of hooey !
<G>

Sandra

Betsy

**Those male friends I was talking about having in the unschooling forum
this
week are every one really good at interpersonals, and a big reason they
talk
to me is because I'll discuss that with them. Many of their male
friends
just look at them quizzically, because they don't see those subtle
interpersonal things. So they run their observations by me, because
I've
been doing that thing since we were little, and they remember.**


I don't remember my source, but I read something that said many men
don't have the same abilities that women have to read facial expression.
And I think this partially explains why they don't like "chick flicks".
In a movie like Emma, the characters are maintaining a polite facade
socially, while feeling strong emotions underneath. I can see all kinds
of emotions flickering in their faces, but I don't know if my husband
can. (He often can't "place" a familiar actor by his face when I can.)

Betsy