Marriage problem assistance
Sandra Dodd
This is long, and it’s not directly about unschooling. Anyone who wants to bypass this can very safely do so! I’m bringing it because there’s a lull here, and because some of you might feel helped by reading it. Some might have ideas that could help the (anonymous please—if you know who it is, don’t out her) author of this story.
Although she says there are more details, ideas could be put out here for various other readers to consider even without as much detail as is here.
To the writer: Surely there will be some ideas given that are not at all helpful, and some that might be. Please don’t take comments personally. People will be writing about marriages and relationships in general.
For those who comment, it will be good practice finding things in here that could be treated with the same principles that help unschooling. it’s not an easy situation at all. Don’t focus too closely on THIS story, but on the ideas and details that are parts of it. Don’t analyze the whole thing. Find a couple of bits you think you can shed some light and joy on.
And to all readers: Find abundance in your lives. Something you have should be treasured. Maybe there are many things. A sad story could bring you down or you could go through it as a checklist of things to appreciate in your own life.
_________________________
Dear Sandra,
this email is overly long and about relationships and connection, or its lack thereof.
I am not sure if it is appropriate for the Always learning list but if it is could you please post it anonymously?
I have contacted you in the past and always found your words helpful, so I am hoping once again you and other people might be able to help me look at things from a different point of view.
However, I understand if this is inappropriate for the list, way too long or cannot be put up. It was nonetheless an interesting experience to write it.
My marriage is in a sad place and I have no clear idea where to start or how to continue to make it better. I know I could leave and things might be better but I know this group has always been a big advocate of trying as much as possible to stay together and this is the very reason why I appreciate comments. My children are 4 and a half and 2 years old and I have been with my husband since 2008, married in 2009.
My husband and I have been having difficulties for a while and it would probably be helpful to tell the whole story, but it also long and possibly boring. To me every single piece of information is relevant but from the outside it might not be so I'll attempt to make points. I'd like to keep it as anonymous as possible.
***** He studied Liberal Arts and likes writing, he's very intelligent and is able to do pretty much anything he sets his mind to but doesn't have a clear passion or profession in mind. Since I've met him, he's been someone that thinks that the next thing is going to be better than the now, liking ideas and potentials but struggling with the day to day. He's not someone that talks about his feelings very much and has the tendency to drink a lot when things are difficult. His outlook on life is generally negative/cynical and right now he thinks he's a failure and a bad person.
***** Initially ours was a long distance relationship and we wrote to each other thousands of emails, words were everything. There was the whole of the Atlantic ocean between us but I felt a connection and a love for him I've never felt for anybody. Eventually, when we moved in together, the written words obviously dwindled.
***** He left his office job in 2009 and moved to the country where I was studying after we got married but we didn't live together straight away as he went to do a two year agriculture diploma one hour away from my flat. The idea was good but he didn't like the course or the environment so much. There were moments of darkness. In his second year I also started working as a doctor and there was a lot of travelling and commuting and lack of sleep. But things were still exciting and after the course he went back to his country to scout for a house and some land.
***** When he came back we were waiting for a baby. I finished my first year and went on maternity early, so before the baby was born I did the first of the conversion exams to be able to apply for a job in his country. During the year I was at home on maternity, my husband couldn't (or didn't, I'm not sure) find a job which definitely played a part on his mood. Despite thinking about being a writer, he didn't think that trying to write or get published was even a remotely possible option. But we had a baby, we were helping each other out and things didn't seem so bad. I did another of my exams when the baby was 4 months old.
***** I didn't expect it but having a baby made it difficult for me to think about going back to work full time, so I went part-time when the baby was 8 months old. My husband also found a part-time job in a restaurant so we were looking after the baby together. Somehow, the idea of moving with my job to his country became too challenging, mostly because it meant for me to work 80-100 hours a week for years. There was no maternity or part-time option in his country at my level of training.
***** My husband never said it but I can't help having the feeling that I kind of disappointed him, talking about moving and house and land and then not doing what I said we would. For me was more like postponing things and modifying plans, not losing dreams, but for him was yet another thing added to the list of shitty things in his life, confirming a negative outlook. A job he didn't like, a country he didn't particularly like, not going back to his country anytime soon, a baby that changed our relationship and, on top of everything, his parents decided to divorce after a 30+ year marriage. Part of the struggle was also the knowledge that, in actual facts, our life wasn't that bad: we had a healthy baby, a flat, we both had jobs and we loved each other. But the unhappiness, the discontent, the darkness were still there for him. I don't think I realised the full extent of the problem, I was excited about the baby, about parenting and unschooling ideas I'd been reading about, about finding joy and wonder in each moment. I tried to share but he didn't seem to care very much. I can only imagine: I was talking about options that meant spending even more time and effort with family and children while he was struggling with the day to day.
***** Talking about his parents' divorce wasn't something we successfully did. I'm still not sure how much he was affected by it and I also felt very affected by it, despite them not being my parents they were still part of my family. My husband said that it was their business but his relationship with his mum definitely deteriorated and trust was compromised (slightly less with his dad).
***** Working in the service industry, there were even more opportunities to drink and I spent many nights being worried about him coming home or literally having to pick him up from the floor. I was scared but didn't know how to deal with it, embarrassed to talk about it with relatives and friends, a couple of times missing work because I didn't trust him with a hungover and a baby.
***** In this environment we had another baby. Looking back I wonder what was going through my head. I guess I was too excited to realise the full extent of our problems, the good moments still aplenty and the relationship of my husband with the little one very good. Also I wasn't depressed and I didn't see life as bad, I was enjoying the toddler, found some very good friends and dreams where filling my head. But the pregnancy was lonely, the disconnect with my husband present. Our dreams of travelling, land, animals, community didn't seem to be doing anything for him while I was restless and ready to move.
I went on maternity a couple of weeks before the baby was born and my husband started to work full time in a pub. I loved being home with both children and going out with them, seeing people and enjoying the days, somewhat letting go of the idea that we had to be somewhere else to be happy. I thought a lot about my parenting and why I did things and when to say yes and no and talking to others about how to relate to the children.
My husband didn't seem so happy about my parenting but at the same time he didn't seem to be interested in discussing why. The drunkenness made it very difficult for me to find him attractive or worth of respect, it felt like a lot of responsibilities for decisions were on my shoulders and with them the potential for mistakes.
I also felt very responsible for his unhappiness and my inability to do anything about it, while at the same time realising his unhappiness went much deeper and was something beyond anything I could say and do. But still, I hadn't be able to help him as a wife. I took a lot of decisions during this time that probably weren't the best in the long run (work-wise as well). My husband seemed to prefer the lack of confrontation and the appearance of peace to real discussions about the future of our family. Actually, I don't think he could really talk or think about the future without a deep despair. He definitely felt like a failure, being 30 years old and not having a profession he thought worthy, having little money and no savings and a marriage that didn't feel like one.
***** I mentioned counselling many times but he was alway adamant that there was no point and that he wouldn't do it (his experience of his parents' divorce definitely playing a part). I tried to reach out and contacted one of his best friends back home, explaining about the drinking, the late nights, the sadness, my lack of helpful solutions. And his friend seemed supportive, recognising some of my struggle and wanting to help somehow. Eventually we disclosed to my husband the email conversations and our concerns but he never really discussed this with me.
***** A job opportunity for me arose across the world at the beginning of 2015 and we decided that it could be a good idea to start afresh. My husband never liked the country where we were and I was happy enough to try somewhere else (and going back to his country wasn't possible right away). We started the paperwork, which took ages. My husband was very discouraged and probably thought it was never going to happen. In the summer we flew to visit his family and friends. It was a strange and challenging time: his dad had moved state with work, his mum was already living with another man and his family and we were staying with them, which was definitely something my husband didn't want to do but we were only told at the last minute. Again there was a lot of drinking. After we came back I found out that a couple of my husband's best friends (including the one that I corresponded with) told him that he should just leave me because I belittle him and all his ideas, because he's an amazing person that cannot reach his potential with me and that what I was doing was basically emotional abuse. (It was interesting, as he's told me before in the emails that my husband was abusing me, with all the drinking and such.)
***** It was traumatic to find this out. To even consider that I was abusing my husband. Was I? I didn't know what he wanted to do in life, he didn't know what he wanted to do in life. Over the years I tried to support his passions but it felt like he was the first not believing in himself. I definitely didn't know how to deal with the drinking and started trusting him less despite knowing he was struggling. I didn't know how to help someone that didn't seem to want to help himself.
I've always been very hands on with the children, I guess my parenting is very 'attachment parenting' style, to put a label on it. I imagine my husband friends didn't quite understand that, maybe they just thought I was obsessed with the children. From my part I can say that my relationship with the children was easier than that with my husband so it was definitely easier to relate to them and spend time with them. One of his friends (one concerned that I was 'ruining the children') told me he'd been working with social services and troubled families in NYC and that children definitely need rules and boundaries. I didn't contradict him but I said that rules and boundaries might be effective in some circumstanced but there were different ways to related to children too. He thought I was crazy, he knew the theory.
***** Back home things were stressful, our departure from the country was looming but there was no date or the date kept changing. My husband had to keep working a job he dislike when we'd thought we would be gone weeks prior. I managed to go back to my country for a week with the children, to say goodbye to my family. When we returned I found out that the trip out of town my husband took to clear his head was shared with another woman. He'd met someone at work after our return from the visit to his family and there was a relationship developing. There was a lot of lying, denying of a physical relationship, admitting to difficulties, to feeling the lack of purpose, feeling a lack of anything in common with me, and thinking that I didn't care anyway. He denied loving this woman and said he would never leave the children. He said other things too: that I love spending time with the children more than he does, that he would like to travel alone, that he likes spending time hanging out with friends, that we don't have anything in common anymore, that he didn't love but felt appreciated by this woman.
***** Eventually we moved across the world, saying we would try again for one year, start afresh and see how things went. I hadn't been working for almost 2 years and I started working full time (76 hours over two weeks). Because of visa requirements, I have to work full time for at least one year until I get my full registration as a doctor. I like my job very much but since having children and realising I loved being home with them, a full time job is a challenging experience. But without it we couldn't have moved, and without it we would have very little money. And it is possible to work part time here, just not straight away. It also means that my husband is at home with the children full time.
***** To cut a long story short, I soon discovered that the relationship didn't end with our move. It carries on daily via messages, emails and calls despite him telling me many times that he's not or less in touch with her. Or that he's contacting her because he feels lonely when I'm at work. I don't know why, I guess I'm optimistic at heart, but every time I believed him and every time I feel trust breaks more until there's nothing left. The words I find for her written by my husband so similar to the ones that used to flow between us.
We've had conversations but we seemed to have gotten nowhere. He says that nothing is changing like it is my fault but since we moved he hasn't stopped contacting her. There's no more drinking and he's taking better care of himself but his profound unhappiness with life is ever present. He says he's a terrible person that I will not forgive and he himself cannot forgive and this seems almost to have become an excuse not to be better or change. He actually said that to make this relationship work he would have to change too much. And that the lover is not the issue because our problems are from before. He keeps saying that we have little in common apart from the children and that he's not sure staying together for them is a good decision. He's miserable and I'm miserable. He feels lost and purpose-less. I've proposed to reorganise things at work so he could find a job but he's not jumping on the possibility. I think part of him doesn't want to settle and start anything new because he's thinking to leave when the year is up and he's fulfilled this duty.
For me things are confusing and not so black and white. I don't think all he is is just a terrible person. I can sense suffering, suffering that was there before his girlfriend. And I see him with the children. He looks after them, connecting with them and loving then very much. Cooking and looking after the house for us. But he finds the day to day home tedious and repetitive. I get lulled into a false sense of security when I see him playing with them and then break my heart once again when I find him referring to the other woman as 'my love' and discussing possible option for meeting up.
I keep trying because separating basically means he will only see the children once a year (he's likely to go back to his country) and because leaving a part of my family - especially if this part is struggling - is a terrible option. But it's come to the point where staying in this situation filled with lies is breaking me. I miss his love, I remember it being so strong. I don't understand if he's still here because he has no money, or because he doesn't want to leave the kids, or because he thinks I need help, or because he feels like a failure or is embarrassed to explain the situation to family and friends, or because in a round about way he wants to keep us together, or because he still cares a little about me.
I guess my question is, how do you connect and keep your heart open and stay as a family when you feel all trust and love have be been shattered? How is this good for the children?
Because there's also a part of me that sees his suffering and his longing for this woman and this part just wants to say to him to please go, go to this love and be happy, or go travel and be happy. I feel like I've trapped him in this life he dislikes and if I could take myself away from the picture he would finally be happy and feel less trapped.
I've lost him. And I miss him. And I don't know if I'll ever find him again. I cannot stop him from loving someone else.
I feel unsure about everything and so sad I could fill buckets of tears.
I've realised that now my relationship with words is truly conflicted. My marriage started off full of words and stories that I trusted and cherished, now words seem to be yet another tool for deceit and confusion.
I appreciate your attention to wording and your thoughtfulness in choosing words.
Although she says there are more details, ideas could be put out here for various other readers to consider even without as much detail as is here.
To the writer: Surely there will be some ideas given that are not at all helpful, and some that might be. Please don’t take comments personally. People will be writing about marriages and relationships in general.
For those who comment, it will be good practice finding things in here that could be treated with the same principles that help unschooling. it’s not an easy situation at all. Don’t focus too closely on THIS story, but on the ideas and details that are parts of it. Don’t analyze the whole thing. Find a couple of bits you think you can shed some light and joy on.
And to all readers: Find abundance in your lives. Something you have should be treasured. Maybe there are many things. A sad story could bring you down or you could go through it as a checklist of things to appreciate in your own life.
_________________________
Dear Sandra,
this email is overly long and about relationships and connection, or its lack thereof.
I am not sure if it is appropriate for the Always learning list but if it is could you please post it anonymously?
I have contacted you in the past and always found your words helpful, so I am hoping once again you and other people might be able to help me look at things from a different point of view.
However, I understand if this is inappropriate for the list, way too long or cannot be put up. It was nonetheless an interesting experience to write it.
My marriage is in a sad place and I have no clear idea where to start or how to continue to make it better. I know I could leave and things might be better but I know this group has always been a big advocate of trying as much as possible to stay together and this is the very reason why I appreciate comments. My children are 4 and a half and 2 years old and I have been with my husband since 2008, married in 2009.
My husband and I have been having difficulties for a while and it would probably be helpful to tell the whole story, but it also long and possibly boring. To me every single piece of information is relevant but from the outside it might not be so I'll attempt to make points. I'd like to keep it as anonymous as possible.
***** He studied Liberal Arts and likes writing, he's very intelligent and is able to do pretty much anything he sets his mind to but doesn't have a clear passion or profession in mind. Since I've met him, he's been someone that thinks that the next thing is going to be better than the now, liking ideas and potentials but struggling with the day to day. He's not someone that talks about his feelings very much and has the tendency to drink a lot when things are difficult. His outlook on life is generally negative/cynical and right now he thinks he's a failure and a bad person.
***** Initially ours was a long distance relationship and we wrote to each other thousands of emails, words were everything. There was the whole of the Atlantic ocean between us but I felt a connection and a love for him I've never felt for anybody. Eventually, when we moved in together, the written words obviously dwindled.
***** He left his office job in 2009 and moved to the country where I was studying after we got married but we didn't live together straight away as he went to do a two year agriculture diploma one hour away from my flat. The idea was good but he didn't like the course or the environment so much. There were moments of darkness. In his second year I also started working as a doctor and there was a lot of travelling and commuting and lack of sleep. But things were still exciting and after the course he went back to his country to scout for a house and some land.
***** When he came back we were waiting for a baby. I finished my first year and went on maternity early, so before the baby was born I did the first of the conversion exams to be able to apply for a job in his country. During the year I was at home on maternity, my husband couldn't (or didn't, I'm not sure) find a job which definitely played a part on his mood. Despite thinking about being a writer, he didn't think that trying to write or get published was even a remotely possible option. But we had a baby, we were helping each other out and things didn't seem so bad. I did another of my exams when the baby was 4 months old.
***** I didn't expect it but having a baby made it difficult for me to think about going back to work full time, so I went part-time when the baby was 8 months old. My husband also found a part-time job in a restaurant so we were looking after the baby together. Somehow, the idea of moving with my job to his country became too challenging, mostly because it meant for me to work 80-100 hours a week for years. There was no maternity or part-time option in his country at my level of training.
***** My husband never said it but I can't help having the feeling that I kind of disappointed him, talking about moving and house and land and then not doing what I said we would. For me was more like postponing things and modifying plans, not losing dreams, but for him was yet another thing added to the list of shitty things in his life, confirming a negative outlook. A job he didn't like, a country he didn't particularly like, not going back to his country anytime soon, a baby that changed our relationship and, on top of everything, his parents decided to divorce after a 30+ year marriage. Part of the struggle was also the knowledge that, in actual facts, our life wasn't that bad: we had a healthy baby, a flat, we both had jobs and we loved each other. But the unhappiness, the discontent, the darkness were still there for him. I don't think I realised the full extent of the problem, I was excited about the baby, about parenting and unschooling ideas I'd been reading about, about finding joy and wonder in each moment. I tried to share but he didn't seem to care very much. I can only imagine: I was talking about options that meant spending even more time and effort with family and children while he was struggling with the day to day.
***** Talking about his parents' divorce wasn't something we successfully did. I'm still not sure how much he was affected by it and I also felt very affected by it, despite them not being my parents they were still part of my family. My husband said that it was their business but his relationship with his mum definitely deteriorated and trust was compromised (slightly less with his dad).
***** Working in the service industry, there were even more opportunities to drink and I spent many nights being worried about him coming home or literally having to pick him up from the floor. I was scared but didn't know how to deal with it, embarrassed to talk about it with relatives and friends, a couple of times missing work because I didn't trust him with a hungover and a baby.
***** In this environment we had another baby. Looking back I wonder what was going through my head. I guess I was too excited to realise the full extent of our problems, the good moments still aplenty and the relationship of my husband with the little one very good. Also I wasn't depressed and I didn't see life as bad, I was enjoying the toddler, found some very good friends and dreams where filling my head. But the pregnancy was lonely, the disconnect with my husband present. Our dreams of travelling, land, animals, community didn't seem to be doing anything for him while I was restless and ready to move.
I went on maternity a couple of weeks before the baby was born and my husband started to work full time in a pub. I loved being home with both children and going out with them, seeing people and enjoying the days, somewhat letting go of the idea that we had to be somewhere else to be happy. I thought a lot about my parenting and why I did things and when to say yes and no and talking to others about how to relate to the children.
My husband didn't seem so happy about my parenting but at the same time he didn't seem to be interested in discussing why. The drunkenness made it very difficult for me to find him attractive or worth of respect, it felt like a lot of responsibilities for decisions were on my shoulders and with them the potential for mistakes.
I also felt very responsible for his unhappiness and my inability to do anything about it, while at the same time realising his unhappiness went much deeper and was something beyond anything I could say and do. But still, I hadn't be able to help him as a wife. I took a lot of decisions during this time that probably weren't the best in the long run (work-wise as well). My husband seemed to prefer the lack of confrontation and the appearance of peace to real discussions about the future of our family. Actually, I don't think he could really talk or think about the future without a deep despair. He definitely felt like a failure, being 30 years old and not having a profession he thought worthy, having little money and no savings and a marriage that didn't feel like one.
***** I mentioned counselling many times but he was alway adamant that there was no point and that he wouldn't do it (his experience of his parents' divorce definitely playing a part). I tried to reach out and contacted one of his best friends back home, explaining about the drinking, the late nights, the sadness, my lack of helpful solutions. And his friend seemed supportive, recognising some of my struggle and wanting to help somehow. Eventually we disclosed to my husband the email conversations and our concerns but he never really discussed this with me.
***** A job opportunity for me arose across the world at the beginning of 2015 and we decided that it could be a good idea to start afresh. My husband never liked the country where we were and I was happy enough to try somewhere else (and going back to his country wasn't possible right away). We started the paperwork, which took ages. My husband was very discouraged and probably thought it was never going to happen. In the summer we flew to visit his family and friends. It was a strange and challenging time: his dad had moved state with work, his mum was already living with another man and his family and we were staying with them, which was definitely something my husband didn't want to do but we were only told at the last minute. Again there was a lot of drinking. After we came back I found out that a couple of my husband's best friends (including the one that I corresponded with) told him that he should just leave me because I belittle him and all his ideas, because he's an amazing person that cannot reach his potential with me and that what I was doing was basically emotional abuse. (It was interesting, as he's told me before in the emails that my husband was abusing me, with all the drinking and such.)
***** It was traumatic to find this out. To even consider that I was abusing my husband. Was I? I didn't know what he wanted to do in life, he didn't know what he wanted to do in life. Over the years I tried to support his passions but it felt like he was the first not believing in himself. I definitely didn't know how to deal with the drinking and started trusting him less despite knowing he was struggling. I didn't know how to help someone that didn't seem to want to help himself.
I've always been very hands on with the children, I guess my parenting is very 'attachment parenting' style, to put a label on it. I imagine my husband friends didn't quite understand that, maybe they just thought I was obsessed with the children. From my part I can say that my relationship with the children was easier than that with my husband so it was definitely easier to relate to them and spend time with them. One of his friends (one concerned that I was 'ruining the children') told me he'd been working with social services and troubled families in NYC and that children definitely need rules and boundaries. I didn't contradict him but I said that rules and boundaries might be effective in some circumstanced but there were different ways to related to children too. He thought I was crazy, he knew the theory.
***** Back home things were stressful, our departure from the country was looming but there was no date or the date kept changing. My husband had to keep working a job he dislike when we'd thought we would be gone weeks prior. I managed to go back to my country for a week with the children, to say goodbye to my family. When we returned I found out that the trip out of town my husband took to clear his head was shared with another woman. He'd met someone at work after our return from the visit to his family and there was a relationship developing. There was a lot of lying, denying of a physical relationship, admitting to difficulties, to feeling the lack of purpose, feeling a lack of anything in common with me, and thinking that I didn't care anyway. He denied loving this woman and said he would never leave the children. He said other things too: that I love spending time with the children more than he does, that he would like to travel alone, that he likes spending time hanging out with friends, that we don't have anything in common anymore, that he didn't love but felt appreciated by this woman.
***** Eventually we moved across the world, saying we would try again for one year, start afresh and see how things went. I hadn't been working for almost 2 years and I started working full time (76 hours over two weeks). Because of visa requirements, I have to work full time for at least one year until I get my full registration as a doctor. I like my job very much but since having children and realising I loved being home with them, a full time job is a challenging experience. But without it we couldn't have moved, and without it we would have very little money. And it is possible to work part time here, just not straight away. It also means that my husband is at home with the children full time.
***** To cut a long story short, I soon discovered that the relationship didn't end with our move. It carries on daily via messages, emails and calls despite him telling me many times that he's not or less in touch with her. Or that he's contacting her because he feels lonely when I'm at work. I don't know why, I guess I'm optimistic at heart, but every time I believed him and every time I feel trust breaks more until there's nothing left. The words I find for her written by my husband so similar to the ones that used to flow between us.
We've had conversations but we seemed to have gotten nowhere. He says that nothing is changing like it is my fault but since we moved he hasn't stopped contacting her. There's no more drinking and he's taking better care of himself but his profound unhappiness with life is ever present. He says he's a terrible person that I will not forgive and he himself cannot forgive and this seems almost to have become an excuse not to be better or change. He actually said that to make this relationship work he would have to change too much. And that the lover is not the issue because our problems are from before. He keeps saying that we have little in common apart from the children and that he's not sure staying together for them is a good decision. He's miserable and I'm miserable. He feels lost and purpose-less. I've proposed to reorganise things at work so he could find a job but he's not jumping on the possibility. I think part of him doesn't want to settle and start anything new because he's thinking to leave when the year is up and he's fulfilled this duty.
For me things are confusing and not so black and white. I don't think all he is is just a terrible person. I can sense suffering, suffering that was there before his girlfriend. And I see him with the children. He looks after them, connecting with them and loving then very much. Cooking and looking after the house for us. But he finds the day to day home tedious and repetitive. I get lulled into a false sense of security when I see him playing with them and then break my heart once again when I find him referring to the other woman as 'my love' and discussing possible option for meeting up.
I keep trying because separating basically means he will only see the children once a year (he's likely to go back to his country) and because leaving a part of my family - especially if this part is struggling - is a terrible option. But it's come to the point where staying in this situation filled with lies is breaking me. I miss his love, I remember it being so strong. I don't understand if he's still here because he has no money, or because he doesn't want to leave the kids, or because he thinks I need help, or because he feels like a failure or is embarrassed to explain the situation to family and friends, or because in a round about way he wants to keep us together, or because he still cares a little about me.
I guess my question is, how do you connect and keep your heart open and stay as a family when you feel all trust and love have be been shattered? How is this good for the children?
Because there's also a part of me that sees his suffering and his longing for this woman and this part just wants to say to him to please go, go to this love and be happy, or go travel and be happy. I feel like I've trapped him in this life he dislikes and if I could take myself away from the picture he would finally be happy and feel less trapped.
I've lost him. And I miss him. And I don't know if I'll ever find him again. I cannot stop him from loving someone else.
I feel unsure about everything and so sad I could fill buckets of tears.
I've realised that now my relationship with words is truly conflicted. My marriage started off full of words and stories that I trusted and cherished, now words seem to be yet another tool for deceit and confusion.
I appreciate your attention to wording and your thoughtfulness in choosing words.
Sandra Dodd
My first impressions on reading this might not be helpful, but I’ll spill them anyway.
This is why cultures for thousands of years have wanted people to marry in the same religion and language, generally. For stability for the larger family and the children. It’s quite cool in the past 40 years for people to marry internationally. For example, I read that over 10% of marriages in Korea are to foreigners. Partly (the writer said) it’s because women move to the city and men working rurally are finding wives in poorer Asian countries. Some is because of a new wave of open-mindedness among younger people, and (incidentally, it said) mixed-race kids are beginning to be considered attractive.
That’s brought just for an example of change—of new prejudices replacing old ones.
But those prejudices are usually based on some reality—that there ARE problems with raising children when the parents have different backgrounds, even when both are happy to be where they are.
_____________________
Even when a partner's drinking is temporarily in a lull, it will be helpful for the more sober partner to read some al-Anon literature—with young children, going to meetings isn’t going to be easy, but there will be things online, and maybe going by a place where groups meet, one could pick up some pamphlets. At least they’ll help with suggestions of what is a waste of time and thought—what does NOT help.
Eliminating what makes things worse will tend to make things slightly better (or at least not much worse).
Ah. There are online meetings, and there’s a tab there to literature.
http://al-anon.org/electronic-meetings
_______________________
One thing that sometimes is done in counselling is for each partner to describe a situation from the other partner’s point of view. If one agreed to move to the husband’s country and then went back on that, maybe verbalizing (or writing) all of that from his point of view could either help you change you mind, or give you more empathy and maybe enough remorse to sincerely apologize.
What would it take to stay together? Moving as first promised? Would it be easier for him to get a job “at home”?
________________________
But what about money? How will the children change countries to visit? Very expensive and they’re too young to travel without and adult for another ten years or more. Maybe moving would be better. Maybe there’s a compromise other country.
Unschooling might not work now. The children are too young to “be unschooling” anyway, at this point, if compulsory school age hasn’t come, but if the husband and his friends and any grandparents and the new girlfriend (this one or another one) don’t get it and don’t WANT to get it, then it’s not something that can be clung to or pulled off. The ideas can color and decorate parenting, but school without too much investment might be much more peaceful than the children feeling unaccepted for being who they are and knowing what they know, doing what they do, and being non-standard cogs in an international machine.
___________
Maybe the girlfriend could be invited to come and visit, meet the the children, talk about the possibility of cooperation. Maybe it would cause the problem to dissipate, inviting her over. Or maybe she’d be likeable and that would change the dynamics, too.
Sandra
This is why cultures for thousands of years have wanted people to marry in the same religion and language, generally. For stability for the larger family and the children. It’s quite cool in the past 40 years for people to marry internationally. For example, I read that over 10% of marriages in Korea are to foreigners. Partly (the writer said) it’s because women move to the city and men working rurally are finding wives in poorer Asian countries. Some is because of a new wave of open-mindedness among younger people, and (incidentally, it said) mixed-race kids are beginning to be considered attractive.
That’s brought just for an example of change—of new prejudices replacing old ones.
But those prejudices are usually based on some reality—that there ARE problems with raising children when the parents have different backgrounds, even when both are happy to be where they are.
_____________________
Even when a partner's drinking is temporarily in a lull, it will be helpful for the more sober partner to read some al-Anon literature—with young children, going to meetings isn’t going to be easy, but there will be things online, and maybe going by a place where groups meet, one could pick up some pamphlets. At least they’ll help with suggestions of what is a waste of time and thought—what does NOT help.
Eliminating what makes things worse will tend to make things slightly better (or at least not much worse).
Ah. There are online meetings, and there’s a tab there to literature.
http://al-anon.org/electronic-meetings
_______________________
One thing that sometimes is done in counselling is for each partner to describe a situation from the other partner’s point of view. If one agreed to move to the husband’s country and then went back on that, maybe verbalizing (or writing) all of that from his point of view could either help you change you mind, or give you more empathy and maybe enough remorse to sincerely apologize.
What would it take to stay together? Moving as first promised? Would it be easier for him to get a job “at home”?
________________________
But what about money? How will the children change countries to visit? Very expensive and they’re too young to travel without and adult for another ten years or more. Maybe moving would be better. Maybe there’s a compromise other country.
Unschooling might not work now. The children are too young to “be unschooling” anyway, at this point, if compulsory school age hasn’t come, but if the husband and his friends and any grandparents and the new girlfriend (this one or another one) don’t get it and don’t WANT to get it, then it’s not something that can be clung to or pulled off. The ideas can color and decorate parenting, but school without too much investment might be much more peaceful than the children feeling unaccepted for being who they are and knowing what they know, doing what they do, and being non-standard cogs in an international machine.
___________
Maybe the girlfriend could be invited to come and visit, meet the the children, talk about the possibility of cooperation. Maybe it would cause the problem to dissipate, inviting her over. Or maybe she’d be likeable and that would change the dynamics, too.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
This is only an illustration, and not a parallel. It might not apply to this situation at all, but might to some others.
I’ve visited in other countries, as an adult, hanging around with, staying with, unschooling families
I will say, first off, that I can drive well, where I live. I own cars. I can drive a standard transmission / stick-shift.
I can use money—cash, checks, credit and debit cards, PayPal.
I know my way around, efficiently and quickly, in most of my state and parts of neighboring states.
I can cook, and shop!
When I visit England, all of that list above dissolves.
When I was in India, and in France, and Australia, I had a hard time undertanding what people were saying, even when it was English. (Also in Yorkshire. :-) )
In The Netherlands, I had a hard time with the very steep stairs. In Portugal, the sidewalks were cobblestones, and my ankles hurt, and the food was unfamiliar.
I couldn’t drive. I could only use money awkwardly. Sometimes I wasn’t sure where I was or how to act. The electrical outlets were unfamiliar and even with adapters, there can be problems. In India, the metal on the laptop buzzed me. In England, I forget to turn the outlet on (and off later).
In other places, I seem incompetent. I live as a child—riding in the car when someone says it’s time to go. Asking basic newbie questions as though I just came to the planet. I couldn’t turn on the stove (nor even NAME “the stove”—hob, cooker) even if I could find a pan, and in India, the pans are stainless steel bowls with clamp-on removeable handles used to pick them up or move them.
IT IS POSSIBLE that an adult living in a foreign country can seem more childish and incompetent than that same adult swimming (and driving) in his own waters. It’s more than possible. It must be VERY difficult for someone to really pull off “adulting” in a foreign place, and there might be some embarrassment and stress, when the sun’s up, when it’s down, and even when they’re sleeping, about that.
I thought of those things, too, when reading through the marriage story.
Sandra
I’ve visited in other countries, as an adult, hanging around with, staying with, unschooling families
I will say, first off, that I can drive well, where I live. I own cars. I can drive a standard transmission / stick-shift.
I can use money—cash, checks, credit and debit cards, PayPal.
I know my way around, efficiently and quickly, in most of my state and parts of neighboring states.
I can cook, and shop!
When I visit England, all of that list above dissolves.
When I was in India, and in France, and Australia, I had a hard time undertanding what people were saying, even when it was English. (Also in Yorkshire. :-) )
In The Netherlands, I had a hard time with the very steep stairs. In Portugal, the sidewalks were cobblestones, and my ankles hurt, and the food was unfamiliar.
I couldn’t drive. I could only use money awkwardly. Sometimes I wasn’t sure where I was or how to act. The electrical outlets were unfamiliar and even with adapters, there can be problems. In India, the metal on the laptop buzzed me. In England, I forget to turn the outlet on (and off later).
In other places, I seem incompetent. I live as a child—riding in the car when someone says it’s time to go. Asking basic newbie questions as though I just came to the planet. I couldn’t turn on the stove (nor even NAME “the stove”—hob, cooker) even if I could find a pan, and in India, the pans are stainless steel bowls with clamp-on removeable handles used to pick them up or move them.
IT IS POSSIBLE that an adult living in a foreign country can seem more childish and incompetent than that same adult swimming (and driving) in his own waters. It’s more than possible. It must be VERY difficult for someone to really pull off “adulting” in a foreign place, and there might be some embarrassment and stress, when the sun’s up, when it’s down, and even when they’re sleeping, about that.
I thought of those things, too, when reading through the marriage story.
Sandra
Sarah Thompson
I have two thoughts to contribute, to keep the discussion going.
There have been times when my husband was depressed. He's not an outgoing person to begin with, so if he goes inside himself, he's *gone*. It's so deep. Years ago, with an old boyfriend, I had a very dissatisfying conversation. We were through, and I was hurt, and he was ignoring/avoiding me. I confronted him with my pain and suffering, and got...a mildly patronizing and utterly dismissive response. After I cried that off, I realized that it is never productive for me to go into a conversation because there is something I want to *hear,* or get from the other person. If I really have to put something out there, I can do it in a letter, because that prevents me from trying to elicit any particular response. I never send those letters:)
That was the beginning of learning how to be a partner for me, I think. (The other was when a mutual friend slapped me down at a party by saying "Stop emasculating your boyfriend!", because I hadn't realized that's how I was and what I was doing-it was all about me.
My husband is much different from the dismissive ex boyfriend, but I make an effort to remember not to try to get him to talk, because he's not a talker. Talking doesn't fix it for him. When I want to talk to him about where he's at, I talk to myself instead. I give myself all the advice I want to give him, I ask myself all the questions, I nag *me*. I have found that, since the stuff I want him to do/say/be/ respond to is actually *my* process, I can sometimes benefit from it. Just this past year I made some really positive things happen for myself by taking my advice, and really positive things happened for him by not having to deal with my "advice."
So, that leads me to my second part: can you redefine marriage, possibly, into something that fits your unique situation? If you divorce, the unschooling that you *are* able to do could really suffer, as he and his circle are not supportive. What would your life look like as a single parent? Can you construct that while he is there and see how it feels? Can you find some other support, some mom's groups, a sitter? Maybe a helper to play with the kids if he's bored? Perhaps he could travel on his own for a few months after you switch to part-time, or if you get help?
Sarah
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
<<<>>>>>IT IS POSSIBLE that an adult living in a foreign country can seem more childish and incompetent than that same adult swimming (and driving) in his own waters. It’s more than possible. It must be VERY difficult for someone to really pull off “adulting” in a foreign place, and there might be some embarrassment and stress, when the sun’s up, when it’s down, and even when they’re sleeping, about that. >>>>I am married to a man from a different culture and I live in his country. I have many friends that are also living in other countries and married to different cultures.It can be really hard and it can take many years for someone not to feelN like an outsider and alone. Some people never adapt and have a really hard time. Other times the person surrounds themselves with things from her/his culture and that helps them a bit.Even for those who adapt , some are not able to fully embrace this other culture and will clash with different values and have different priorities and expectations.For those who adapt and embrace this other cultures and life style to can take 10 or more years to do so easily.Feeling alone in a different place can be hard. Bringing a little bit of your home country can help.If he is from a culture where always hanging out with friends is normal than having a quiet family life can be suffocation.I am not saying you can't have a family ! In my family growing up my parents always had friends over. We mingled with the adults. We took trips with groups of friends. Lots of friends and socialization with friends.Now I live in a farm and my husband and I rather sit and watch a game on TV. Now I have my girlfriends that I can go do social stuff with. Now that my kids are 10 and 13, so only in he last 3 years I have done a bit more little by little. I am glad I can just stay home and be happy. Many people from my country could not and they would feel like they were alone and abandoned even with a living partner.Can you find more friends, like other couples, you can invite over or go out while a sitter cares for the kids? Can you bring in a bit of his country in?Alex ( who instead of wanting everything from her country is in love with ANOTHER country all together)
Sandra Dodd
-=-My husband is much different from the dismissive ex boyfriend, but I make an effort to remember not to try to get him to talk, because he's not a talker. Talking doesn't fix it for him. When I want to talk to him about where he's at, I talk to myself instead. I give myself all the advice I want to give him, I ask myself all the questions, I nag *me*. I have found that, since the stuff I want him to do/say/be/ respond to is actually *my* process, I can sometimes benefit from it. Just this past year I made some really positive things happen for myself by taking my advice, and really positive things happened for him by not having to deal with my "advice.”-=-
This is good for ME. Thanks.
My husband wrecked his car, in the dark, in low, rural mountains, ranchland, Friday night. It’s either totalled, or will be expensive. He’s told me a few stories. His friend who knows te road well defended him about the bad conditions of that intersection. He’s already embarrassed and ashamed. I need to say as little as possible, and that’s hard for me sometimes. (Okay… always. :-))
Sandra
This is good for ME. Thanks.
My husband wrecked his car, in the dark, in low, rural mountains, ranchland, Friday night. It’s either totalled, or will be expensive. He’s told me a few stories. His friend who knows te road well defended him about the bad conditions of that intersection. He’s already embarrassed and ashamed. I need to say as little as possible, and that’s hard for me sometimes. (Okay… always. :-))
Sandra
sukaynalabboun@...
I am living in my husband's country; when we met, we lived together for some time in mine. What helped was compromise, understanding, patience and being willing to extend the benefit of the doubt 😊 Alex was also correct in saying it takes both time and work to adjust. It has been 20 yrs of marriage and we are really very happy in spite of many hardships which are outside the normal ones you think about....It is really important to do the foundation right; to really support and love one another, and to laugh about things- keep it light and really try to understand the other.
This has helped us.
On May 23, 2016, at 5:49 PM, Alex & Brian Polikowsky polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
<<<>>>>>IT IS POSSIBLE that an adult living in a foreign country can seem more childish and incompetent than that same adult swimming (and driving) in his own waters. It’s more than possible. It must be VERY difficult for someone to really pull off “adulting” in a foreign place, and there might be some embarrassment and stress, when the sun’s up, when it’s down, and even when they’re sleeping, about that. >>>>I am married to a man from a different culture and I live in his country. I have many friends that are also living in other countries and married to different cultures.It can be really hard and it can take many years for someone not to feelN like an outsider and alone. Some people never adapt and have a really hard time. Other times the person surrounds themselves with things from her/his culture and that helps them a bit.Even for those who adapt , some are not able to fully embrace this other culture and will clash with different values and have different priorities and expectations.For those who adapt and embrace this other cultures and life style to can take 10 or more years to do so easily.Feeling alone in a different place can be hard. Bringing a little bit of your home country can help.If he is from a culture where always hanging out with friends is normal than having a quiet family life can be suffocation.I am not saying you can't have a family ! In my family growing up my parents always had friends over. We mingled with the adults. We took trips with groups of friends. Lots of friends and socialization with friends.Now I live in a farm and my husband and I rather sit and watch a game on TV. Now I have my girlfriends that I can go do social stuff with. Now that my kids are 10 and 13, so only in he last 3 years I have done a bit more little by little. I am glad I can just stay home and be happy. Many people from my country could not and they would feel like they were alone and abandoned even with a living partner.Can you find more friends, like other couples, you can invite over or go out while a sitter cares for the kids? Can you bring in a bit of his country in?Alex ( who instead of wanting everything from her country is in love with ANOTHER country all together)
sukaynalabboun@...
Glad Keith is OK, and I have stopped myself frequently ( because of things I have read here) from saying more than I should, or similarly backtracked and apologized. Excellent reminder and definitely helpful for saving marriages and good for all relationships. I am also guilty of trying to talk things through too much, but I have definitely noticed things are much better when I remember not to...
> On May 23, 2016, at 6:43 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> -=-My husband is much different from the dismissive ex boyfriend, but I make an effort to remember not to try to get him to talk, because he's not a talker. Talking doesn't fix it for him. When I want to talk to him about where he's at, I talk to myself instead. I give myself all the advice I want to give him, I ask myself all the questions, I nag *me*. I have found that, since the stuff I want him to do/say/be/ respond to is actually *my* process, I can sometimes benefit from it. Just this past year I made some really positive things happen for myself by taking my advice, and really positive things happened for him by not having to deal with my "advice.”-=-
>
> This is good for ME. Thanks.
>
> My husband wrecked his car, in the dark, in low, rural mountains, ranchland, Friday night. It’s either totalled, or will be expensive. He’s told me a few stories. His friend who knows te road well defended him about the bad conditions of that intersection. He’s already embarrassed and ashamed. I need to say as little as possible, and that’s hard for me sometimes. (Okay… always. :-))
>
> Sandra
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
Interesting thing is that I learned to talk less because of you Sandra.
I talk so much less !
One time doing a chat I wrote something and Sandra said:
"Stop tagging him"
That is exactly what my husband used to say! All the time! I stopped. I have not heard that in years.
Not that I don't something slip but so so much less!
To the OP you have very young kids and I remember when my kids were little how much I sometimes made it all about us, me and kids, and him, my husband. He did put up with it but he was in his home ( he was born in the farm we live) and his country.
It can be very lonely if you are in another country and you are not part of your family , or you don't feel like you are.
Now maybe that is not what is going on. Maybe you do include him. Even then it does not mean he feels at home. It can take years. Now you have a job and has met people. You at least have coworkers , he does not. Many stay at home men I know feel alone and left behind even if it was their choice and they like it.
Making friends as a stay at home parent in another country can be very hard , even in your own country!
Help him find friends, even if they are a group of moms. I know a local group of stay at home dads where I live , many married to physicians at Mayo ( I live close to Mayo clinic) and it is very important for them to do something, have a purpose, belong to a group.
Maybe try to find other couples in your situation, where dad is a stay at home. Invite them over. Have some social time. Get a sitter to come entertain the kids while you guys have dinner.
Alex ( who now can keep her mouth shut most of the time, not all, thanks to Sandra)
Sent from my iPhone
On May 23, 2016, at 10:43 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
-=-My husband is much different from the dismissive ex boyfriend, but I make an effort to remember not to try to get him to talk, because he's not a talker. Talking doesn't fix it for him. When I want to talk to him about where he's at, I talk to myself instead. I give myself all the advice I want to give him, I ask myself all the questions, I nag *me*. I have found that, since the stuff I want him to do/say/be/ respond to is actually *my* process, I can sometimes benefit from it. Just this past year I made some really positive things happen for myself by taking my advice, and really positive things happened for him by not having to deal with my "advice.”-=-
This is good for ME. Thanks.
My husband wrecked his car, in the dark, in low, rural mountains, ranchland, Friday night. It’s either totalled, or will be expensive. He’s told me a few stories. His friend who knows te road well defended him about the bad conditions of that intersection. He’s already embarrassed and ashamed. I need to say as little as possible, and that’s hard for me sometimes. (Okay… always. :-))
Sandra
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
It was ragging and not tagging!
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
On May 23, 2016, at 5:27 PM, Alex & Brian Polikowsky polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
Interesting thing is that I learned to talk less because of you Sandra.I talk so much less !One time doing a chat I wrote something and Sandra said:"Stop tagging him"That is exactly what my husband used to say! All the time! I stopped. I have not heard that in years.Not that I don't something slip but so so much less!To the OP you have very young kids and I remember when my kids were little how much I sometimes made it all about us, me and kids, and him, my husband. He did put up with it but he was in his home ( he was born in the farm we live) and his country.It can be very lonely if you are in another country and you are not part of your family , or you don't feel like you are.Now maybe that is not what is going on. Maybe you do include him. Even then it does not mean he feels at home. It can take years. Now you have a job and has met people. You at least have coworkers , he does not. Many stay at home men I know feel alone and left behind even if it was their choice and they like it.Making friends as a stay at home parent in another country can be very hard , even in your own country!Help him find friends, even if they are a group of moms. I know a local group of stay at home dads where I live , many married to physicians at Mayo ( I live close to Mayo clinic) and it is very important for them to do something, have a purpose, belong to a group.Maybe try to find other couples in your situation, where dad is a stay at home. Invite them over. Have some social time. Get a sitter to come entertain the kids while you guys have dinner.Alex ( who now can keep her mouth shut most of the time, not all, thanks to Sandra)
Sent from my iPhone-=-My husband is much different from the dismissive ex boyfriend, but I make an effort to remember not to try to get him to talk, because he's not a talker. Talking doesn't fix it for him. When I want to talk to him about where he's at, I talk to myself instead. I give myself all the advice I want to give him, I ask myself all the questions, I nag *me*. I have found that, since the stuff I want him to do/say/be/ respond to is actually *my* process, I can sometimes benefit from it. Just this past year I made some really positive things happen for myself by taking my advice, and really positive things happened for him by not having to deal with my "advice.”-=-
This is good for ME. Thanks.
My husband wrecked his car, in the dark, in low, rural mountains, ranchland, Friday night. It’s either totalled, or will be expensive. He’s told me a few stories. His friend who knows te road well defended him about the bad conditions of that intersection. He’s already embarrassed and ashamed. I need to say as little as possible, and that’s hard for me sometimes. (Okay… always. :-))
Sandra
sarah hurn
Firstly, I wanted to express my empathy for your situation at present, it must be very hard to be a mother and working to support your family through this. It sounds like you have worked something out a lot of people haven't though; to put your family and children first at all costs, but it seems like that is being pushed to the limits in your case, with another woman involved. Despite it, you are wanting suggestions to make things work with the current situation and with that in mind, here are my thoughts.
I listened to a short book on Audible recently, link is here:
Give it a listen, it's only 2 hours. Although it doesn't address the issue of someone else being a part of the marriage, it might give you hope about the different stages of a long term relationship. The marriage therapist who wrote the book (after working with thousands of couples) talks about how hardship in marriage is necessary to evolve the relationship and ourselves as individuals, and it's completely normal, there is nothing like marriage (maybe parenting too) that provides that opportunity for growth, but we must be prepared to grow and be ok with being completely out of our comfort zone while we do (it sounds like you are definitely there!).
Giving up is really just losing opportunities for him and you to keep growing. There is some other great thoughts in the book and I found it gave me a whole different perspective on marriage that was helpful, I've stopped fighting for change in my marriage, accepted that my husband is the right man for me (otherwise we wouldn't have got together 16 years ago), and started working on myself.
www.alturtle.com
With that in mind, the website above is one I've found useful. The first page has some easy links you can click on to get you started that may be applicable to your situation. The website focuses on how you can improve to be a better partner rather than trying to change your husband. If you raise the bar on communication, boundaries, patience, empathy etc, then he might raise his own bar.
There is nothing more attractive to a man at the end of the day than a mother dedicated to raising his offspring right, if you keep focusing on doing that for your children you will be a woman that cannot be replaced (which you can't be anyway, you are the only mother to his children), he may wake up to that eventually.
Does he listen to podcasts or read books? There are a few great intellectual philosophy podcasts that he could plug into if he's bored at home, he could listen while he goes about the day with the children, that may take his mind to new heights. It sounds like he is relying on the other woman outside of the marriage to help him with his feelings of worthlessness and perhaps anxiety.
The "having nothing in common" reason and getting a new girlfriend sounds to me like someone going through a midlife crisis. He is young at 30, his parents divorce must be traumatic, the move to a new country and the feelings of responsibility to you and the children at 30 years old (while probably some of his friends are just having fun without commitments) , and being down on himself sounds like a recipe for a personal crisis. It would be so beneficial if he could see a therapist, or at least have some good friends who give wise advice and speak truthfully.
My husband instigated a seperation after 10 years of marriage, I accepted it reluctantly thinking it was the only way to get clarity over some of the transitional problems we were facing at the time (one was leaving the religious group we were apart of all our lives), some of the reasons your husband mentions in his rationalising for leaving his family sound familiar. Our separation only ended up lasting 6 months before we both realised nothing could replace what we were building together and how much we loved our children, that realisation came through our experiences in that 6 months as well as finding some wise advice (like this group!) . However, we had to search for the good advice, our friends/family more or less supported our decision to separate which is quite bizarre looking back, as they were all there when we made our marriage vowels to each other. In this world of political correctness a lot of people are afraid of saying anything that may offend and would rather watch people's lives fall apart than be truthful about what feels like a wrong decision, and what will so obviously not bring lasting joy long term. When there is no abuse, it is a family being together that will bring the most happiness in life, and there are so many articles on Sandra's site proving this and a few sad ones regretting that they knew it.
My final thoughts are to live with integrity to yourself and to your role as a mother. Try not to worry about you husband's process of growth so much, give him your suggestions if he asks (eg a good book you read or podcast) but go about quietly if he doesn't and work on yourself to get a greater understanding of your situation and of course focus on being a great mother.
I am married to a wonderful man who also needs his space when figuring things out and I'm only realising this after 16 years together :-/
I hope this gives you something to work with through this challenging time in your life.
Sarah
mellingersa@...
Coming late into this discussion but since I moved to the USA in my thirties I thought I share my experience of "adult incompetence" in a foreign country.
There were so many areas I felt incompetent (despite being very competent in my home country). Sandra pointed out many of them but what surprised me the most was how "culturally incompetent" I felt. I grew up in Germany but somehow had not expected the USA to be so different in every day cultural habits.
One example that makes me still chuckle is what I call my "how are you" learning experience. I think it was in my first week and a colleague asked me in the elevator "how are you ?". The next 2 minutes or so (as long as the elevator ride took) I tried to answer her question by explaining that I finally had manage to open a bank account without a social security card, which I couldn't get without an address (I was staying in a hotel) and that now I was working on finding an apartment (again difficult without a social security number and a bank account) to finally get that social security card..........all this in relatively broken English. When the elevator door opened the colleague quickly said "have a good day" and disappeared with a bewildered look.......
I had no idea that "how are you" is not an invitation to tell a stranger about your day - no matter how difficult it has been :)) The coworker clearly thought I was weird and even though this was a minor incident it made me wonder if there was something wrong with me.
Over time I learned many of the social cues of the U.S. by observing every day life - it IS like being a child again in some ways. People even talked to me like a child ..... slow and in easy words or raised their voice ..... as if I was dumb or deaf :)) I can now smile about these times but I remember being frustrated and feeling alone at times. Often I felt like saying "hey, I'm not stupid - just new here" :))
The experience has made me more aware of how much of our daily life is learned social behavior and how it can vary even between cultures which don't seem to be very much apart on the surface.
Sabine
cheri.tilford@...
This message/story has been sitting with me since I read it yesterday, and I have so many thoughts about it and I've been trying to see it through an unschooling lens, and this is a complex situation.
I'm not entirely sure how to look at a drinking problem with unschooling principles, or if it's possible. What I do know is alcoholic behavior is bad for children - it's confusing, destabilizing, potentially dangerous. My husband has a drinking problem, and grew up with an alcoholic mother (who still drinks). He and I have had many conversations about how confusing and hurtful his mother was, and how it only made sense when he grew up and realized it was the alcohol (understanding merely clears up the confusion, not the pain). It is extremely important to me that our daughter not experience that, but my declarations of my intent were not being heard and his drinking continued. Recently my daughter and I took a trip while my husband stayed home and I left him a letter saying (amongst many other things, including the multitude of reasons I love him) if he is unwilling to choose between his family and his addiction I'm prepared to force his hand. I would generally recommend against saying something like that, but I chose to for several reasons: he's been trying to moderate his drinking for years without success, we've been to marriage counseling twice in about 10 years with his drinking as one of the central issues, and a few weeks ago he hurt our daughter in a way that wouldn't have happened if he was sober (nothing serious, didn't leave a mark, but still . . . ) and I thought that would be enough to knock sense into him and it wasn't, and I know she and I are the most important things in his world. So I used our experience together and what I know about him to move towards a resolution to our problem, and so far it's working. If his drinking becomes problematic again my daughter and I will take a trip without him for as long as it takes for him to clean up his act. Like I said, not something I'd recommend, but it's what can work in our situation. I'm looking at him, me, our daughter, and trying to figure out what is best. Your situation will necessarily dictate other options.
One of the reasons working through marital problems, regardless of the kind, can be a good choice is because generally people bring those same problems into the next relationship. What you said about seeing/hearing the same words he wrote to you shows he's repeating a pattern, looking for something outside to fill the hole inside. Someone, I think Sandra, posted a really great link to AlTurtle.com, a treasure trove of articles about making relationships work. One of the most helpful things I read was how our family relationships with parents set us up with areas of lack (unconditional love is rare) that we're looking to complete through our choice of partner. With a willing partner, we can heal those old wounds and grow together. But you cannot save a marriage by yourself.
If he's interested in trying to save what you have, I've had good experience with resources from the Gottman Institute (gottman.com). Dr. Gotttman has done many longitudinal studies on couples and has real information about what makes marriage work and what will surely kill it. Many years ago my husband and I attended a Gottman weekend workshop that gave us knowledge and skills we still use. You can buy a DVD version of the workshop through the website. It includes concrete exercises that help elicit empathy, understanding, and movement towards a better relationship.
I think it would help to put more attention on what he does/who he is that makes you smile. Being a dad. Making a joke or witty comment. A quirky expression. See him through your children's eyes - who is he to them?
I know when I'm in a place where I'm unhappy with my husband my sense of what I want and need can drown out other thoughts and I have a hard time feeling empathy for the difficulty my husband is having - he also struggles with depression and inactivity and a sense of failure as a person. Sometimes there's not a whole lot I can do to help, but there are many ways I can make it worse. Recognizing he doesn't want to hurt me, and that he doesn't always know how to best help himself are helpful thoughts for me to have. He's incredibly sensitive and can feel my energy and read my face, so I know my thoughts matter. Sometimes I picture him as a little kid and my heart breaks a little and softens towards him.
What would it be like for you to write him a letter, sharing your thoughts, feelings, hopes and dreams?
I was grateful to have a trusted friend to review the letter I recently wrote my husband to make sure it lacked an attacking or hurtful tone and was open, honest, and loving. For us, this time, that tactic worked.
Maybe you two can have a conversation over email and figure out what you each want for your family and your future and how you can make the best life for your kids. Email will allow each of you to have space for honest emotions without feeling responsible for or reactive to the others' feelings.
Where unschooling principles can help here is to let go of expectations and really look at who is in front of you. Be open, respectful, loving, honest, and try to make it work for all of you without worrying what anyone else will think. Maybe that means an open marriage where he travels with a girlfriend and you two are friends who co-parent. Maybe that thought makes you die a little inside. No matter what, if he's not willing to engage, there's only so much you can do.
I hope others have ideas about how unschooling principles can shed some light.
good luck.
cheri
Sandra Dodd
-=- It is extremely important to me that our daughter not experience that, but my declarations of my intent were not being heard and his drinking continued. -=-
Cheri wrote that.
Alcohol IS bad, and I hope your letter will help him get into counseling.
But divorce doesn’t prevent or stop alcoholism. It creates conditions in which the child is with the alcoholic parent without the sober parent around at all. People sometimes forget that, when they’re angry and trying to hurt the other person.
-=- if he is unwilling to choose between his family and his addiction I'm prepared to force his hand.-=-
It’s not a legitimate dichotomy. He would still be her father, legally, biologically. He could marry someone who drinks as much as he does, and there would be times they had your daughter (and maybe their own children, or the older children of the new wife).
I’m writing this because I lost count long ago of women who ran a guy off and seemed surprised he didn’t disappear from the world, but was still alive, and no longer paying for the house, and maybe not helping in ANY way.
-=-If his drinking becomes problematic again my daughter and I will take a trip without him for as long as it takes for him to clean up his act.-=-
Few families have that option. The mom with the original question works as a doctor.
-=-generally people bring those same problems into the next relationship.-=-
That happens lots, too. Sometimes people find the second marriage to have the same problems, without the shared history of romance and reproduction.
-=-With a willing partner, we can heal those old wounds and grow together. But you cannot save a marriage by yourself.
-=-
I’m not sure that’s true, that one person changing can’t save a marriage. If there’s a stalemate, some pieces need to be rearranged, and things can flow again.
-=-See him through your children's eyes - who is he to them?-=-
Very, very important. And if all the eyes seeing him are just the mom and the children, there is more potential for loving compassion than if that circle of witnesses expands to his new girlfriend or wife, and the mom’s new boyfriend or husband (and potential accompanying or later-arriving children).
These are wonderful:
-=-Sometimes there's not a whole lot I can do to help, but there are many ways I can make it worse. -=-
-=- Sometimes I picture him as a little kid and my heart breaks a little and softens towards him. -=-
-=- Maybe that means an open marriage where he travels with a girlfriend and you two are friends who co-parent. Maybe that thought makes you die a little inside. -=-
I think that would be less expensive and less soul-crushing for the children than a divorce would be. It’s not politically correct to say so, but MANY couples who make it to 50th or 60th anniversaries weathered an affair, and stayed together. And it’s not even “an affair” if the other partner sees the need and purpose and agrees, for whatever reasons are at play in that relationship. That’s a bit awkward, and a little dangerous (socially) but not as irreperable as divorce is.
Sandra
Cheri wrote that.
Alcohol IS bad, and I hope your letter will help him get into counseling.
But divorce doesn’t prevent or stop alcoholism. It creates conditions in which the child is with the alcoholic parent without the sober parent around at all. People sometimes forget that, when they’re angry and trying to hurt the other person.
-=- if he is unwilling to choose between his family and his addiction I'm prepared to force his hand.-=-
It’s not a legitimate dichotomy. He would still be her father, legally, biologically. He could marry someone who drinks as much as he does, and there would be times they had your daughter (and maybe their own children, or the older children of the new wife).
I’m writing this because I lost count long ago of women who ran a guy off and seemed surprised he didn’t disappear from the world, but was still alive, and no longer paying for the house, and maybe not helping in ANY way.
-=-If his drinking becomes problematic again my daughter and I will take a trip without him for as long as it takes for him to clean up his act.-=-
Few families have that option. The mom with the original question works as a doctor.
-=-generally people bring those same problems into the next relationship.-=-
That happens lots, too. Sometimes people find the second marriage to have the same problems, without the shared history of romance and reproduction.
-=-With a willing partner, we can heal those old wounds and grow together. But you cannot save a marriage by yourself.
-=-
I’m not sure that’s true, that one person changing can’t save a marriage. If there’s a stalemate, some pieces need to be rearranged, and things can flow again.
-=-See him through your children's eyes - who is he to them?-=-
Very, very important. And if all the eyes seeing him are just the mom and the children, there is more potential for loving compassion than if that circle of witnesses expands to his new girlfriend or wife, and the mom’s new boyfriend or husband (and potential accompanying or later-arriving children).
These are wonderful:
-=-Sometimes there's not a whole lot I can do to help, but there are many ways I can make it worse. -=-
-=- Sometimes I picture him as a little kid and my heart breaks a little and softens towards him. -=-
-=- Maybe that means an open marriage where he travels with a girlfriend and you two are friends who co-parent. Maybe that thought makes you die a little inside. -=-
I think that would be less expensive and less soul-crushing for the children than a divorce would be. It’s not politically correct to say so, but MANY couples who make it to 50th or 60th anniversaries weathered an affair, and stayed together. And it’s not even “an affair” if the other partner sees the need and purpose and agrees, for whatever reasons are at play in that relationship. That’s a bit awkward, and a little dangerous (socially) but not as irreperable as divorce is.
Sandra
miranda.wann@...
<But divorce doesn’t prevent or stop alcoholism. It creates conditions in which the child is with the alcoholic parent without the sober parent around at all. People sometimes forget that, when they’re angry and trying to hurt the other person.>
Divorce certainly doesn't prevent or stop alcoholism, but there are cases (like my own) in which the alcoholic parent becomes so dangerous to be around that they lose physical custody of their children. The father of my children got into a downward spiral of drinking and drugs in the last years of our marriage. He was arrested twice while caring for the children while I was at work, once while driving under the influence of alcohol, with my children who were 21/2 and 5 years old at the time, in the car. Alcoholism affects everyone in a family. My denial that my husband's drinking was a problem and his shame and outright lying about whether he was drinking or using drugs put my children in very dangerous situations. He is in recovery now and when he is sober, enjoys spending with the children in my presence or with a family member. His sobriety is and must be a precursor to his involvement with the kids, and I spent 7 years in Al-Anon before I had the strength to stand up for myself and my kids and a home life where I can feel safe. I know divorce is not for everyone, but with two adults, I think it does take two to make a partnership like marriage work. Anyway, Al-Anon Online Al-Anon Outreach is a place that anyone who feels like they have been affected by someone else's drinking can find some clarity.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I know divorce is not for everyone,-=-
Yikes.
I don’t think anyone could think that divorce is for everyone.
-=-...but with two adults, I think it does take two to make a partnership like marriage work. -=-
It takes two to make it work well, but it does NOT take two to make it better.
Sandra
Yikes.
I don’t think anyone could think that divorce is for everyone.
-=-...but with two adults, I think it does take two to make a partnership like marriage work. -=-
It takes two to make it work well, but it does NOT take two to make it better.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
I was wrong about them living in the mom’s native country. Four countries are involved.
A (mom’s native, non-English-speaking)
B (where mom moved on her own and became fluent in English)
C (where dad is from and where they met)
D (where they are now, third and different English-language place)
A (mom’s native, non-English-speaking)
B (where mom moved on her own and became fluent in English)
C (where dad is from and where they met)
D (where they are now, third and different English-language place)
semajrak@...
<<But he finds the day to day home tedious and repetitive.>>
Can you find a way to make his day to day home more playful? Can you hide notes for him to find or put googly eyes in surprising places? Can you write a nice message for him to find on the bathroom mirror? Can you put a thank you note on his pillow? That might all seem silly and like I'm missing the point, and maybe I am, but I wonder if helping him feel seen and appreciated and loved for who he is and what he has to contribute might help you both take gentle steps back toward each other. Sometimes playfulness is a good place to begin to loosen up so that you can start to move in a new direction.
There is a rat park study that looks at addiction. You might know about it, but if not, here's a short video that explains it more succinctly than I can:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbQFNe3pkss
People have talked about that study here in various contexts. If you search "rat park" on Sandra's site, you'll find it referenced various times.
http://sandradodd.com/search
Perhaps there are ways you can help make home happier and more stimulating for your husband. Being playful (as I mentioned) might be one way begin. Making the environment warm and cozy might help. New lighting maybe. New sheets. New pillows on the bed. Having music that evokes memories might be nice. Create new memories with music maybe. Put up some photos. Make some pictures with the kids for dad, and hang them up too. Perhaps getting a board game or two that you and your husband can play together. My husband and I loved Quarto and Gobblet for a few years when Ethan was young. Both are games you can play and chat over. Five Crowns is a fun card game. Maybe you can play a video game together.
There is a rat park study that looks at addiction. You might know about it, but if not, here's a short video that explains it more succinctly than I can:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbQFNe3pkss
People have talked about that study here in various contexts. If you search "rat park" on Sandra's site, you'll find it referenced various times.
http://sandradodd.com/search
Perhaps there are ways you can help make home happier and more stimulating for your husband. Being playful (as I mentioned) might be one way begin. Making the environment warm and cozy might help. New lighting maybe. New sheets. New pillows on the bed. Having music that evokes memories might be nice. Create new memories with music maybe. Put up some photos. Make some pictures with the kids for dad, and hang them up too. Perhaps getting a board game or two that you and your husband can play together. My husband and I loved Quarto and Gobblet for a few years when Ethan was young. Both are games you can play and chat over. Five Crowns is a fun card game. Maybe you can play a video game together.
Those are just some ideas that have worked well in our home. Find things you both enjoy and try to make time and space for them. Include the kids or get a sitter. Chat while you're doing things together. Listen well when you have the opportunity. Learn more about your husband. Show him you're interested. Take steps to support him. Share a bit more of yourself--the positive things. The things you love. The things that inspire you. Laugh as often as you can. Smile more. Breathe deep and be present. Those things have all strengthened my marriage. Hopefully you'll find some things that can bring you closer together too.
Karen James
semajrak@...
<<My husband seemed to prefer the lack of confrontation and the appearance of peace to real discussions about the future of our family. Actually, I don't think he could really talk or think about the future without a deep despair.>>
Some people don't like to talk a lot. It's overwhelming for them. For some it is highly stressful and can cause despair. If you know that, don't push it. It doesn't mean that person doesn't want to work toward making things better. They most likely do. They just don't want to talk at length about it. That's okay. There's more than one way to get there.
Both my husband and my son are like this. They are both deep thinkers, and when they talk, they have a lot to say, but they are not interested in long drawn out confrontational discussions about a future they can't influence in the moment. They both prefer peace in the moment to talking about peace in the future. I've learned to respect that. I've learned to nurture it.
Try to find ways of seeing you husband in the light of what will bring you together, not through the well worn lens of what separates you. Find ways to bridge the gap between how you see and function in the world, and how he sees and functions best. Every time you start to see your differences, look for common ground. Then take steps to move toward that.
Karen James
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
Same at my house.
My husband says I talk to much a s think too much. He does not like to talk about it.
My son is the same way.
This morning I needed to talk to my husband about something . I texted him. Gently.
I did not go on and on, I tried not to and mostly succeeded.
He sent me a text back saying I was right and that he got what I was saying.
Maybe try something like that. Simple, gentle, loving notes.
Not blah blah blah blah .... On and on.
Alex Polikowsky( who does like to discuss things but has learned not everyone does)
Sent from my iPhone
On May 25, 2016, at 1:57 PM, semajrak@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
<<My husband seemed to prefer the lack of confrontation and the appearance of peace to real discussions about the future of our family. Actually, I don't think he could really talk or think about the future without a deep despair.>>
Some people don't like to talk a lot. It's overwhelming for them. For some it is highly stressful and can cause despair. If you know that, don't push it. It doesn't mean that person doesn't want to work toward making things better. They most likely do. They just don't want to talk at length about it. That's okay. There's more than one way to get there.Both my husband and my son are like this. They are both deep thinkers, and when they talk, they have a lot to say, but they are not interested in long drawn out confrontational discussions about a future they can't influence in the moment. They both prefer peace in the moment to talking about peace in the future. I've learned to respect that. I've learned to nurture it.Try to find ways of seeing you husband in the light of what will bring you together, not through the well worn lens of what separates you. Find ways to bridge the gap between how you see and function in the world, and how he sees and functions best. Every time you start to see your differences, look for common ground. Then take steps to move toward that.Karen James
Erin Waterbury
My husband and I also started our relationship with written words and a few phone calls that dwindled away once we were physically in the same place. It took me a lot of years before I realized that we needed to bring them back. We are both too argumentative to communicate effectively verbally, too much interruption and waiting to argue a particular point to really hear each other even on inconsequential topics, let alone important ones.
Skype as an instant messenger or hand written letters has been pivotal in helping us come closer together after an affair. When you write you have time to run your words through several filters to see if they're actually conveying what you mean, if they are likely to be interpreted in a different/relationship harming way and if they even need to be said at all (LOTS gets filtered out at that last one for me). When we read we have time to process the actual words without needing to have a response ready to fire back the moment the other finishes a thought (or before).
Since he already feels like a failure and that there's no hope for the marriage I don't think letting him know how this has affected you would be beneficial, it would likely be more fuel on that fire of having let you and his family and himself as a husband down. What might help though would be to share with him every wonderful thing you can see about him, from your and the children's perspective. See the scared lonely child in him that is pushing away reminders of his failure to be what he thought he should be and help him to see every way that he is a success, he probably can't see them on his own anymore.
When I was left reeling with the discovery that my husband was involved with another woman I very quickly realized that my desire for a faithful husband took a very very distant back seat to my desire for a stable and comfortable home for our boys (they were 5 and 1 at the time). I certainly wanted a solid marriage and monogamous relationship, but for the sake of our boys I decided that I could, and would be able to make a happy family home even with another involved in some way. So far it doesn't look like that will be necessary. More positivity and patience and less talking from me has softened the divide between us and things have been getting better.
I am in general a very positive person so it was hard for me to realize (mostly through the writings in this group) that I was very negative and controlling in my relationship with my husband. I still fall into old patterns regularly but it's getting easier to see it and make better choices. It is amazingly powerful to be able to hear something I disagree with and respond with "oh, that's interesting, can you tell me more?" and not argue (or roll my eyes or be dismissive in any way). It's been really hard for me but my husband is slowly becoming more comfortable sharing opinions and ideas he thinks may be counter to my own and that is priceless.
I will be another voice adding to the recommendation to read Al Turtle's site. You making better choices and changes WILL change your relationship. As Sandra has said it only takes one person to make the relationship better. It may or may not be enough, but better is better. The better you can make things the more comfortable you can be and the less pressure there is on your husband to be different than he is the more room there is for him to grow. Pressure to change who we are is more likely to lead to resistance and resentment than any improvement.
This group has been pivotal in helping me repair my marriage, I hope it can help yours too.
On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:17 PM, sarah hurn hurnfamily4@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:Firstly, I wanted to express my empathy for your situation at present, it must be very hard to be a mother and working to support your family through this. It sounds like you have worked something out a lot of people haven't though; to put your family and children first at all costs, but it seems like that is being pushed to the limits in your case, with another woman involved. Despite it, you are wanting suggestions to make things work with the current situation and with that in mind, here are my thoughts.I listened to a short book on Audible recently, link is here:Give it a listen, it's only 2 hours. Although it doesn't address the issue of someone else being a part of the marriage, it might give you hope about the different stages of a long term relationship. The marriage therapist who wrote the book (after working with thousands of couples) talks about how hardship in marriage is necessary to evolve the relationship and ourselves as individuals, and it's completely normal, there is nothing like marriage (maybe parenting too) that provides that opportunity for growth, but we must be prepared to grow and be ok with being completely out of our comfort zone while we do (it sounds like you are definitely there!).Giving up is really just losing opportunities for him and you to keep growing. There is some other great thoughts in the book and I found it gave me a whole different perspective on marriage that was helpful, I've stopped fighting for change in my marriage, accepted that my husband is the right man for me (otherwise we wouldn't have got together 16 years ago), and started working on myself.With that in mind, the website above is one I've found useful. The first page has some easy links you can click on to get you started that may be applicable to your situation. The website focuses on how you can improve to be a better partner rather than trying to change your husband. If you raise the bar on communication, boundaries, patience, empathy etc, then he might raise his own bar.There is nothing more attractive to a man at the end of the day than a mother dedicated to raising his offspring right, if you keep focusing on doing that for your children you will be a woman that cannot be replaced (which you can't be anyway, you are the only mother to his children), he may wake up to that eventually.Does he listen to podcasts or read books? There are a few great intellectual philosophy podcasts that he could plug into if he's bored at home, he could listen while he goes about the day with the children, that may take his mind to new heights. It sounds like he is relying on the other woman outside of the marriage to help him with his feelings of worthlessness and perhaps anxiety.The "having nothing in common" reason and getting a new girlfriend sounds to me like someone going through a midlife crisis. He is young at 30, his parents divorce must be traumatic, the move to a new country and the feelings of responsibility to you and the children at 30 years old (while probably some of his friends are just having fun without commitments) , and being down on himself sounds like a recipe for a personal crisis. It would be so beneficial if he could see a therapist, or at least have some good friends who give wise advice and speak truthfully.My husband instigated a seperation after 10 years of marriage, I accepted it reluctantly thinking it was the only way to get clarity over some of the transitional problems we were facing at the time (one was leaving the religious group we were apart of all our lives), some of the reasons your husband mentions in his rationalising for leaving his family sound familiar. Our separation only ended up lasting 6 months before we both realised nothing could replace what we were building together and how much we loved our children, that realisation came through our experiences in that 6 months as well as finding some wise advice (like this group!) . However, we had to search for the good advice, our friends/family more or less supported our decision to separate which is quite bizarre looking back, as they were all there when we made our marriage vowels to each other. In this world of political correctness a lot of people are afraid of saying anything that may offend and would rather watch people's lives fall apart than be truthful about what feels like a wrong decision, and what will so obviously not bring lasting joy long term. When there is no abuse, it is a family being together that will bring the most happiness in life, and there are so many articles on Sandra's site proving this and a few sad ones regretting that they knew it.My final thoughts are to live with integrity to yourself and to your role as a mother. Try not to worry about you husband's process of growth so much, give him your suggestions if he asks (eg a good book you read or podcast) but go about quietly if he doesn't and work on yourself to get a greater understanding of your situation and of course focus on being a great mother.I am married to a wonderful man who also needs his space when figuring things out and I'm only realising this after 16 years together :-/I hope this gives you something to work with through this challenging time in your life.Sarah
Sandra Dodd
-=- When you write you have time to run your words through several filters to see if they're actually conveying what you mean, if they are likely to be interpreted in a different/relationship harming way and if they even need to be said at all (LOTS gets filtered out at that last one for me). When we read we have time to process the actual words without needing to have a response ready to fire back the moment the other finishes a thought (or before). -=-
There is the potential for all of that, but if posts to unschooling discussions are any evidence, people seem able to write without ANY filters, and then to respond without reading. :-)
And so please remember that, anyone who is considering this excellent advice about putting things in writing. Take advantage of the advantages!! If you don’t, you’ll solidify thoughtlessness. So be thoughtful.
Other benefits to in-writing is that you can keep a copy (if it’s on paper, do keep a copy), and defend yourself if it’s misconstrued (gently, and eventually, not in the first millisecond). And the recipient can read it once in anger or embarrassment, and then again after the emotions dissipate.
Write briefly and not at long, long length, if you want it read and considered.
Sandra
There is the potential for all of that, but if posts to unschooling discussions are any evidence, people seem able to write without ANY filters, and then to respond without reading. :-)
And so please remember that, anyone who is considering this excellent advice about putting things in writing. Take advantage of the advantages!! If you don’t, you’ll solidify thoughtlessness. So be thoughtful.
Other benefits to in-writing is that you can keep a copy (if it’s on paper, do keep a copy), and defend yourself if it’s misconstrued (gently, and eventually, not in the first millisecond). And the recipient can read it once in anger or embarrassment, and then again after the emotions dissipate.
Write briefly and not at long, long length, if you want it read and considered.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
What Erin wrote was wonderful, and I wanted to save some of it somewhere (which I have done without attaching her name, because Google is too bright a light sometimes).
One thing she wrote, I wanted to connect to something similar.
“See the scared lonely child in him that is pushing away reminders of his failure to be what he thought he should be and help him to see every way that he is a success, he probably can't see them on his own anymore.”
SO BIG, so important. Seeing the child inside the man is something I’ve recommended for many years. No one ever gave me that advice. It’s something I figured out on my own, and was very glad to have done so.
I wrote this in 2013:
____________________
Nurture your partner
One of the best thoughts I ever had was remembering that the little boy is still inside the man. His hurts and fears are lurking. His memories of good times and bad times before I was in his life are still in there. Sometimes little boys need a hug, or to play. But they probably don't need MORE mean mothering. Sometimes little boys were deprived, told to wait, told to help, not to play, whatever it was.<p>
If you have awareness of any of your husband's childhood frustrations, remember that those are a part of him and sometimes will be closer to the surface. Sometimes I do one or two little life-improving things that I wouldn't have done if I hadn't said to myself "Do a couple of life-improving things"—like change the sheets, take out the trash near my husband's desk, take him some lassi or juice when he's working in the garage or outside, buy something he likes, at the store.<p>
My husband is not a child, and I am not his mother. But I knew his mother, and I know stories of him as a child. I'm the person he chose to help him move into another stage of life, with confidence and security and love. That was 35 years ago, now, that we first "dated," and we've been married for nearly thirty years. He felt safe with me, and I wanted to keep it that way. I felt safe with him, too.
The rest of that is here: http://sandradodd.com/betterpartner
and it links to a German translation, which was “the original” (I wrote it for a German magazine).
___________
I added part of Erin’s post, and the three paragraphs above, to this page:
http://sandradodd.com/marriage
There are links there to other pages that have helped other people’s marriages, too. I’m grateful to everyone who has shared life-strenghtening thoughts and actions that I was able to gather up and save. Maybe find a link in one of those and share it back out (here, or to a friend who could use it), with commentary.
Sandra
One thing she wrote, I wanted to connect to something similar.
“See the scared lonely child in him that is pushing away reminders of his failure to be what he thought he should be and help him to see every way that he is a success, he probably can't see them on his own anymore.”
SO BIG, so important. Seeing the child inside the man is something I’ve recommended for many years. No one ever gave me that advice. It’s something I figured out on my own, and was very glad to have done so.
I wrote this in 2013:
____________________
Nurture your partner
One of the best thoughts I ever had was remembering that the little boy is still inside the man. His hurts and fears are lurking. His memories of good times and bad times before I was in his life are still in there. Sometimes little boys need a hug, or to play. But they probably don't need MORE mean mothering. Sometimes little boys were deprived, told to wait, told to help, not to play, whatever it was.<p>
If you have awareness of any of your husband's childhood frustrations, remember that those are a part of him and sometimes will be closer to the surface. Sometimes I do one or two little life-improving things that I wouldn't have done if I hadn't said to myself "Do a couple of life-improving things"—like change the sheets, take out the trash near my husband's desk, take him some lassi or juice when he's working in the garage or outside, buy something he likes, at the store.<p>
My husband is not a child, and I am not his mother. But I knew his mother, and I know stories of him as a child. I'm the person he chose to help him move into another stage of life, with confidence and security and love. That was 35 years ago, now, that we first "dated," and we've been married for nearly thirty years. He felt safe with me, and I wanted to keep it that way. I felt safe with him, too.
The rest of that is here: http://sandradodd.com/betterpartner
and it links to a German translation, which was “the original” (I wrote it for a German magazine).
___________
I added part of Erin’s post, and the three paragraphs above, to this page:
http://sandradodd.com/marriage
There are links there to other pages that have helped other people’s marriages, too. I’m grateful to everyone who has shared life-strenghtening thoughts and actions that I was able to gather up and save. Maybe find a link in one of those and share it back out (here, or to a friend who could use it), with commentary.
Sandra
cheri.tilford@...
-----One of the best thoughts I ever had was remembering that the little boy is still inside the man. His hurts and fears are lurking. His memories of good times and bad times before I was in his life are still in there. Sometimes little boys need a hug, or to play. But they probably don't need MORE mean mothering. Sometimes little boys were deprived, told to wait, told to help, not to play, whatever it was.
If you have awareness of any of your husband's childhood frustrations, remember that those are a part of him and sometimes will be closer to the surface. Sometimes I do one or two little life-improving things that I wouldn't have done if I hadn't said to myself "Do a couple of life-improving things"—like change the sheets, take out the trash near my husband's desk, take him some lassi or juice when he's working in the garage or outside, buy something he likes, at the store.
My husband is not a child, and I am not his mother. But I knew his mother, and I know stories of him as a child. I'm the person he chose to help him move into another stage of life, with confidence and security and love. That was 35 years ago, now, that we first "dated," and we've been married for nearly thirty years. He felt safe with me, and I wanted to keep it that way. I felt safe with him, too.-------
If you have awareness of any of your husband's childhood frustrations, remember that those are a part of him and sometimes will be closer to the surface. Sometimes I do one or two little life-improving things that I wouldn't have done if I hadn't said to myself "Do a couple of life-improving things"—like change the sheets, take out the trash near my husband's desk, take him some lassi or juice when he's working in the garage or outside, buy something he likes, at the store.
My husband is not a child, and I am not his mother. But I knew his mother, and I know stories of him as a child. I'm the person he chose to help him move into another stage of life, with confidence and security and love. That was 35 years ago, now, that we first "dated," and we've been married for nearly thirty years. He felt safe with me, and I wanted to keep it that way. I felt safe with him, too.-------
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That whole thing bears repeating again. And again.
I've been reading on this list for about 5 years, and I'm embarrassed to admit I didn't fully apply unschooling principles to my husband and my marriage until the past year or so. I'd thought I tried in the past, but I'd too easily slip back into my tendency to be controlling and critical. Finally something really clicked in me, and I was able to see my sensitive, sweet, vulnerable husband and the ways in which I was making our relationship unsafe for him. I looked more closely at the things I thought I wanted to say, and applied more stringent criteria to my words, which eliminated my nagging and complaining almost completely. I voiced my appreciation for the things I noticed he was good at - he's a wonderful dad who plays just like a little kid, way better than I do. I adjusted my narrative that said "I do everything around here" and noticed (just to myself as to avoid condescension since things were still pretty imbalanced) the ways he lessened my burdens, and I reinforced my own sense of gifting my family with my "chores". I stopped openly questioning (which he saw as criticizing) things he did that I didn't get or seemed like a waste of time and instead tried to make his ability to do those things easier and more comfortable. After all, there are many things I do that are important to me that he doesn't understand but he doesn't walk by and sigh about all the time I'm wasting. He's more likely to make a lighthearted joke than to be critical - something I have learned from him.
My husband and I have been together 18 years, married 11, and for many years, any time we argued or were in a rough patch I fantasized about the marriage I wished I had and the husband I wanted. I finally made the shift to becoming the wife I want to be. And my husband has noticed and our relationship has improved immensely. We still have plenty of issues, like any couple, some still serious (like the drinking problem) but because I stopped picking at him and have truly accepted him for who he is - not in some distant better future, but today - we can talk openly, without him being defensive, about the things that really do need to change. He feels accepted now, despite imperfections. And because I now only address what is important, not merely what I find annoying, he hears me and responds.
One of the things that has helped me keep perspective is to keep my daughter's peace and happiness at the very top of my priorities. No matter what, that means her family will stay intact. Not only because that means I don't have to worry about protecting her from in-laws I don't trust, but because she loves her dad and me above all else, and no amount of explanation about my personal needs could justify tearing her world apart.
To sum up, the most important step I took towards happiness (in marriage, in life) was to let go of fantasies and expectations about what happiness looks like, and to make my life in all its messiness the best in any given moment by shifting into gratitude and joy in every moment I can. That alone has shifted my family to a better place.
No marriage is beyond fixing. I still think you can't save it by yourself if your partner has given up, but you can make it better and he might change his mind.
cheri
Sandra Dodd
[I found some very old e-mailsl in the drafts folder. This will only matter to people reading the original topic, which is still there to be read.]
-=-
One time doing a chat I wrote something and Sandra said:
"Stop tagging him”-=-
I think I said “stop ragging on him.” :-)
Stop nagging is what I would usually say, but I had used “ragging,” and Alex said that’s the same term her husband had used, about her… nagging. :-) Not tagging.
Sandra
-=-
One time doing a chat I wrote something and Sandra said:
"Stop tagging him”-=-
I think I said “stop ragging on him.” :-)
Stop nagging is what I would usually say, but I had used “ragging,” and Alex said that’s the same term her husband had used, about her… nagging. :-) Not tagging.
Sandra
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
Yes ragging. I remember that exchange.
Alex
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 17, 2016, at 1:48 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
[I found some very old e-mailsl in the drafts folder. This will only matter to people reading the original topic, which is still there to be read.]
-=-
One time doing a chat I wrote something and Sandra said:
"Stop tagging him”-=-
I think I said “stop ragging on him.” :-)
Stop nagging is what I would usually say, but I had used “ragging,” and Alex said that’s the same term her husband had used, about her… nagging. :-) Not tagging.
Sandra