nada.sheppard@...

This week I had my first real "Oh, I get it!" radical unschooling mom moment. (Phew, that's a mouthful.)

I am slowly (I mean, fossilization-slowly) working my way over the big 6 of unschooling to adapt our life to a radical unschooling lifestyle. I still have plenty of hang ups but one that has never phased me is clothes. I have a 5yo daughter and I've always told her, "As long as your clothes are clean and modest, I'm not worried about what you wear." And this has been a great sense of freedom for her. Pink polka dot pants with a neon orange striped shirt? Sure! Pajama bottoms and a MLP t-shirt? Great! Snow White Halloween costume? Don't forget the tiara! My son is the same way. If their clothes are dirty, I encourage them to change (if we are going out -- at home I'm not so worried. Long as they've changed every 24 hours or so, I'm good.) and I have asked my daughter to put something over the odd tank top t-shirt, but on the whole, it's worked out remarkably well.

This week, my mother came over to visit with us and to watch my 2yo while my daughter and I were in seeing the optometrist. My daughter had out on a pair of purple leggings pants and a purple and grey t-shirt with a sewn on vest, backwards. I was going to ask her to turn it around but I got sidetracked and forgot about it. If it had been facing the right way, it would have been cute. But that's what she had picked out and that was fine with me.

My mother arrived and she started helping me with my housework before we went to our appointments. To my mother, this involved bathing my 2yo (he'd had a bath the night before, I don't know why she felt the need to give him another one) and then helping my 5yo clean her room. All the while I am running around trying to get my housework done before we leave.

Suddenly my daughter comes down with the most sullen, angry face. She's wearing different clothes -- a grey shirt with butterflies and a pair of burgundy pants that match the butterflies. She also has a good from a puffy vest on her head (unattached to said puffy vest) and she is just miserable. I ask her what's wrong and she states that she doesn't like her outfit. I ask her why not and she said Nanny made her change it. I asked why, since the other outfit was clean and perfectly fine, except the shirt was backwards. She just shrugged. So I asked my mother and she said that because her shirt was weird she made her change.

I was bothered by this -- how my mother just assumed that what she was wearing wasn't good enough and made her change. So right there, in front of my mother, I told my daughter she could go change into whatever she wanted, or could put something else on to make the outfit hers. But my poor sweet little girl was just so defeated at the idea of being forced to wear something she didn't want to that she just muttered, "No, it's fine" and moved on.

Later on, my mother told her to take off the hood she still was wearing on her head, which she refused. My mother started telling her she wasn't allowed to go anywhere with it on. Of course, it did indeed look silly to be wearing a hood without a jacket or vest attached, but that's not how our family deals with things like that. And so I stepped in, trying to help them both come to a satisfying compromise. And then, my mother said something that just bore right through my heart.

"Well," she said, "I guess Nanny will just wait in the car when you go anywhere, since I don't want to be seen with you wearing that on your head.

And at that moment, I realized that my daughter had no voice against my mother. Nothing she said or did with regards to the hood would be accepted. She had no worth or respect with regards to this hood. Don't get me wrong -- my mother absolutely adores my children, and there's nothing my children love more than to visit with Nanny. But this comment just broke me. And I realized that if she had no voice, she couldn't stand up for herself. She needed me to be her champion, to stand up for her and to say what she wanted to say without being in a place where she would be punished for speaking to an adult in what would be preceived as rude.

So I was able to help them come to an agreement. My daughter agreed to wear the hood in the car, and to and from the stores we visited, but once inside the buildings, she would take it off. I could see my mother was not very happy with this agreement, but frankly, at that point, I couldn't care less. My daughter's heart and happiness was more valuable to me than my mother getting her way.


Cass Kotrba

I'm glad you feel like you are starting to move in the right direction.  I had a few thoughts about your post.

-=- I am slowly (I mean, fossilization-slowly) working my way over the big 6 of unschooling to adapt our life to a radical unschooling lifestyle.-=-

I wonder why so slowly. From your post, it sounds like your mother is very controlling and you have a hard time standing up to her/establishing boundaries. I wonder if you are moving so slowly so as not to upset your mother. (Also, I'm not sure what the "big 6 of unschooling" is.)

-=- My mother arrived and she started helping me with my housework before we went to our appointments. To my mother, this involved bathing my 2yo (he'd had a bath the night before, I don't know why she felt the need to give him another one) and then helping my 5yo clean her room. All the while I am running around trying to get my housework done before we leave. -=-

This statement is sending up lots of red flags for me. Firstly, why is your mother deciding on her own that your child needs a bath and thinking that it is her role to make such a decision and act on it. Are these her children or yours? What if you had said "Mom, he doesn't need a bath. Please leave him be"?

Is there a reason that you need to run around making sure the house is spotless before you leave other than your mother's desire that it be that way?  Maybe you like a spotless house.  Maybe you appreciate your mom's help.  But it sounds more like interfering than helping.  Do YOU want it like that or do you want to please your mother?  What would happen if you said "Just leave it mom, I'd rather focus on making a smooth transition for the kids to go out"?

It sounds like your mother still thinks of you as her responsibility and she's coming over to make sure your house is clean before going out.  Was her house spotless before she left?  Is that how SHE likes it so she comes over to your house to make sure YOUR house is clean before you're allowed to go out?  When you were young were you required to clean your room before being allowed to do things and this is a continuation of that?  Things to think about.

-=- I was bothered by this -- how my mother just assumed that what she was wearing wasn't good enough and made her change.-=-

It is my opinion that this should bother you. You're right - you are the girl's mother, not her. For her to think she can just waltz on into your house and take control seems way out of balance to me.

-=- And so I stepped in, trying to help them both come to a satisfying compromise. -=-

If you were talking about 2 children then I'd say "Great!" But you are talking about brokering a peace between a 5 year old and her grandmother. Let me just say this - YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR MOTHER'S HAPPINESS. You brought 2 children into the world and you are responsible for them. You are not responsible for your mother. You're not.

To me, part of my role as an unschooling mom is to act as a buffer for my kids from the outside world. Grandparents and siblings (including in-laws) are part of that outside world and as such I do my best to ensure that those people don't damage my kids in ways that they damaged myself and my husband.

It's great to have extended family involved with our kids but unfortunately those relationships aren't always healthy and so for us they have become more complicated. My relationships within my family come first - that means kids, husband and my own well being.

-=-  Don't get me wrong -- my mother absolutely adores my children, and there's nothing my children love more than to visit with Nanny.-=-

Then hopefully she will be open to making changes in her behavior that will make things easier for you and your children. It has been my experience, however, that controlling Grandmothers have a hard time seeing that they need to change. It is much easier if YOU stay the same. Hence my questioning of your "fossilization-slowly" changes.

If you have a 5 and a 2 year old then you are really not unschooling yet.  The older one would probably be going to school this fall and that's when you will truly be unschoolers.  Let me ask you this - how do you think your mother is going to respond to the fact that your daughter will not be learning the same things in the same ways that she expects?  What will you say to her if your daughter is 7, 8, 9 years old and not reading.  Not adding and subtracting, doing work sheets, showing the kind of paper trail that she expects.  Her friend's grandchildren will be doing things differently and she will most likely draw comparisons.  I would suggest that if you are truly planning to unschool then you should start working on standing up for yourself and your decisions because it is not going to get easier.  

-=- "Well," she said, "I guess Nanny will just wait in the car when you go anywhere, since I don't want to be seen with you wearing that on your head.-=-

This suggests to me that it will not be an easy thing to go against your mother's wishes. I would suggest to you that it's time to stop pussy footing around her and get serious. Because if you are going to let your mother stand between you and your children (not sure how her relationship is with your husband) then that is going to be a serious impediment to unschooling.  

The clock is ticking and I don't think you can afford to move at the pace of a fossil. I would suggest that it's time to step up and start standing fully behind your choices. If you can't do that then you may want to consider taking a more traditional path. And if your going to take a more traditional path then you probably want to start getting your daughter ready for that. Either way, it's time to get serious about it.

-Cass

K Pennell

-=- "Well," she said, "I guess Nanny will just wait in the car when you go anywhere, since I don't want to be seen with you wearing that on your head.-=-

This is a manipulative statement. I doubt very much that she intended this to simply be a problem solving strategy. She did it to guilt YOU into making your child take off the hood in public, or to make your daughter feel stupid for wanting to wear it, perhaps.

i wonder if her coming in and bathing the younger child is her way of manipulating you through guilt, as well. Do you think she is truly just trying to help? Or is she perhaps trying to give you the message that you aren't good enough? Your kids don't measure up? Having dealt with manipulative family members over the years, if you can question these things, it may help you.

Perhaps next time, your daughter will wear her hood and Nanny can suit herself, stay in the car or not.


From: "nada.sheppard@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 10:14 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Becoming My Child's Champion (Long Testimonial)







Sarah Thompson


-Don't get me wrong -- my mother absolutely adores my children, and there's nothing my children love more than to visit with Nanny.-

My grandmother was like this. She was bossy and image-conscious and had been a kindergarten teacher. When my sister and I were little, we adored her. She had lots of fiddly things-miniatures, Victorian knick-knacks, jewelry boxes. She would take us shopping and set up art projects. It was all well and good until we started to bridle against the condescension, the patronization, the manipulation. "Do you hate me?" when I refused to make the bed, a kid's table with macaroni when the adults had lobster, "When do the girls start wearing padded bras?" to my mother, in front of me, during my early teens; this stuff adds up. By the time I was 14, neither of us wanted anything to do with her, and we were practically estranged by the time she died.

I didn't like the way she treated my mother, and it is a life's work to undo the damage she did with the precedent she set for my relationship with my own mother and *her* relationship with *my* kids. I see in my mother a lifetime of living as less than her whole, true self, because of her loss of her father very youn and her domineering mother. The troubled and murky space in my life where an easy relationship with my mother should be is a constant gravitational force in my work towards mental and physical health. I love my mother, as I loved my grandmother, but there are times when I would gladly trade that love for just liking her more instead.

Don't let your children's current adoration (which is a complex emotion and different from easy affection and comfort, reverential and not necessarily reciprocated in kind) be an excuse for abuse, how ever "gentle" and "mild" it is. My sister had some serious body image issues as a teen-my grandmother, not my mother, was the only one to ever comment on her weight or her body, and we didn't even live with her or see her all the time.

This might sound a little harsh. As Gandalf says, "I'm not trying to rob you, I'm trying to help you." I wish so much that my mother had had the tools of unschooling to repair and redeem and redefine her relationship with her mother and herself. She tried, using the tools she hadn but they weren't powerful enough. *Someone* has to break the cycle. Let it be you.

Sarah

Cass Kotrba

-=- Because if you are going to let your mother stand between you and your children (not sure how her relationship is with your husband) then that is going to be a serious impediment to unschooling.  -=-

I don't know what the relationship is like between your husband and your mother but I think it is worth saying that your husband cannot fix a problem that is between you and your mother and putting him in the middle would be very damaging to your relationship.  

I get how scary it is to stand up to someone who has controlled you your entire life.  It would probably be helpful for you to have an unschooling friendly therapist of some kind to help you work through your difficulties with your mother.  (Help - I know there is a list but I can't seem to find it.)  But no therapist, no husband, nobody but YOU can fix what is a personal boundary issue between you and your mother.

On the other hand, think about this.  If this is the first time you've really asserted your independence to her, she might not like it but unless they are supporting you financially or some other factor we don't know about, then there's really nothing she can do about it.  She can pitch a fit.  That's about it.  

And imagine how freeing it could be.  You could focus on how you feel, what you like, etc. instead of trying to mold yourself into someone else's vision of you.  As your kids learn and discover their own preferences, likes and dislikes, strengths and weaknesses - you can be right there with them discovering your own!

 <3

Sandra Dodd

-=-It would probably be helpful for you to have an unschooling friendly therapist of some kind to help you work through your difficulties with your mother. (Help - I know there is a list but I can't seem to find it.) -=-

http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy is the list

-=-If this is the first time you've really asserted your independence to her, she might not like it but unless they are supporting you financially or some other factor we don't know about, then there's really nothing she can do about it. She can pitch a fit. That's about it. -=-

That’s not all she can do.
GO EASY on advice. Think through three or four moves, not just one move. What kind of chess would that be!?
If you CAN move, move?
No. Think carefully. Consider the children FIRST. Taking a bath is better than losing a grandmother.

-=-And imagine how freeing it could be. -=-

That’s easy, but not safe or realistic.

Imagine how damaging and hurtful it could be, immediately and in the long run.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-I wonder why so slowly. From your post, it sounds like your mother is very controlling and you have a hard time standing up to her/establishing boundaries. I wonder if you are moving so slowly so as not to upset your mother. (Also, I'm not sure what the "big 6 of unschooling" is.)-=-

I wondered what that “big 6” might be too, but was hesitatant to ask. I’ve never heard of it.

But as to slowly, there are VERY MANY good reasons to go slowly.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange

Sudden change is unstable and dangerous.
Gradual growth and understanding is the only way unschooling will be whole and good.
Rushing into it has destroyed families completely.
Rushing into it with bravado loaned by the “support” of others saying “GO FOR IT, nobody can stop you,” has caused people to discover that they CAN be stopped—by the fathers of the children, by social services, by judges.

Rushing into it with bravado has caused some mothers to lose custody of children, so please, please chill with the advice to hurry and cold-heartedly abandon anything or anyone.

The original poster wrote:

-=- My mother arrived and she started helping me with my housework before we went to our appointments. To my mother, this involved bathing my 2yo (he'd had a bath the night before, I don't know why she felt the need to give him another one) and then helping my 5yo clean her room. All the while I am running around trying to get my housework done before we leave. -=-

Someone (doesn’t matter who, don’t look back to see, don’t claim it):

-=-This statement is sending up lots of red flags for me-=-

It didn’t send up one single red flag for me. It might be interesting to know how old all the mothers and children are in the discussion, but although it would be interesting, I don’t really want to know. :-) I have suspicions.

Let’s say that the mother who asked might not want to sever ties with all her relatives. Then she needs very different ideas.

-=-It is my opinion that this should bother you. -=-
Bad advice.
Incindiary advice.
Harsh-and-too fast.

-=-If you were talking about 2 children then I'd say "Great!" But you are talking about brokering a peace between a 5 year old and her grandmother. Let me just say this - YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR MOTHER'S HAPPINESS. You brought 2 children into the world and you are responsible for them. You are not responsible for your mother. You're not. -=-

Rather than choosing sides, looking at partnership would be better. And looking at a peaceful environment.

The woman we’re talking about is not simply the mom’s mother. Stop, anyone who is thinking that.
Children have a REAL, honest, legal and biological relationship with their grandparents. That is not something any parent should break up lightly.

-=-To me, part of my role as an unschooling mom is to act as a buffer for my kids from the outside world. -=-

I’m glad you wrote “to me” because it might be too personal for sharing here. Let’s go with peaceful general principles. Why should a child need a buffer to live in the real world? They need partners, and helpers. They need guides and assistants. And a grandmother visiting is not “the outside world.”

-=-Grandparents and siblings (including in-laws) are part of that outside world and as such I do my best to ensure that those people don't damage my kids in ways that they damaged myself and my husband.-=-

Part of regaining equilibrium after childhood damage (from parents, in-laws or siblings) should be to realize that not all people are damaged by their relatives. Your children don’t need to be damaged by you, and cutting them off from their grandparents might be something from which they would never recover. If someone projects their own childhood hurts on everyone around, their advice could be tainted, harsh and negative.

-=- The older one would probably be going to school this fall and that's when you will truly be unschoolers. Let me ask you this - how do you think your mother is going to respond to the fact that your daughter will not be learning the same things in the same ways that she expects? -=-

This is borrowing trouble. Peace now will lead to peace later. Antagonism now could lead to a shitstorm that would last a decade, or a lifetime.

-=-This suggests to me that it will not be an easy thing to go against your mother's wishes. I would suggest to you that it's time to stop pussy footing around her and get serious. -=-

I hope the original poster will disregard that suggestion, and NOT “get serious,” but continue to gradually learn more about her own children, herself, and unschooling, at the pace that helps her.

-=-The clock is ticking and I don't think you can afford to move at the pace of a fossil.-=-=

http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange

Rushing does not help.
Hurrying to unschooling doesn’t work.

-=-I would suggest that it's time to step up and start standing fully behind your choices. If you can't do that then you may want to consider taking a more traditional path. -=-

Unschooling is not “a choice” nor even a bunch of choices. It is a way of living, and of seeing the world, and it cannot and does not EVER form up whole overnight. It’s not a decision one makes and keeps. It takes a while to really BE an unschooler. The more carefully one takes the hundreds of small steps toward it, the more calm and solid it will be. And if it’s done without panic or urgency, it can include the grandparents.

Burning bridges behind oneself has always been considered a bad move.
Burning all bridges because they’re “the outside world” is a supremely bad idea.

Sandra

Nada

-=- I wonder why so slowly. -=-

To be honest, this isn't my first attempt at radical unschooling. The education part, letting our children learn naturally based on their interests and passions, I have absolutely no quams about it whatsoever. However, I tried relinquishing as many restrictions as I could when my oldest was 3ish, which is obviously too young, and I was so stressed out in giving her more freedoms, I actually ended up having panic attacks. So I am taking this attempt sooooooooooooooooo slowly.


-=- From your post, it sounds like your mother is very controlling and you have a hard time standing up to her/establishing boundaries. -=-

My mother is very controlling, yes. However, I grew a backbone several years ago and I have grown in strength to put that away. I used to do it with anger and adult temper tantrums -- I am slowly changing that over to gentle assertiveness and cooperation.

-=- I wonder if you are moving so slowly so as not to upset your mother. -=-

Nope, to stop myself from getting anxiety attacks. :P


-=- (Also, I'm not sure what the "big 6 of unschooling" is.) -=-

The "Big 6" was a term I heard a few years ago on another unschooling forum.  I think there was a presentation done on it at a unschooling convention or something?  Anyway, it's the six things that are most frequently areas in which parents struggle to let go of with regards to unschooling -- food, hygiene, television, chores, video games and... I can't remember the sixth one.  Reading, maybe?  
-=- This statement is sending up lots of red flags for me. Firstly, why is your mother deciding on her own that your child needs a bath and thinking that it is her role to make such a decision and act on it. Are these her children or yours? What if you had said "Mom, he doesn't need a bath. Please leave him be"? -=-

She does have a horrible habit of just doing what she thinks is right. Our standards are drastically different -- I work really hard to focus my days on relationships with my children and husband. I like a neat and tidy house -- in fact, I struggle to function when my house is overly cluttered and messy -- but I am trying to refocus my mindset to being home with my children, and not home with my home.

-=- Is there a reason that you need to run around making sure the house is spotless before you leave other than your mother's desire that it be that way?  Maybe you like a spotless house.  Maybe you appreciate your mom's help.  But it sounds more like interfering than helping.  Do YOU want it like that or do you want to please your mother?  What would happen if you said "Just leave it mom, I'd rather focus on making a smooth transition for the kids to go out"? -=-

Part of it is that yes, I like to have the home clean, but another part is that my mother likes to take over things and it infuriates me. She steps over me to get things to meet her expectations, which isn't acceptable. It has resulted in several disputes for us over time.

-=- Was her house spotless before she left?  Is that how SHE likes it so she comes over to your house to make sure YOUR house is clean before you're allowed to go out? -=-

Hahaha, no.  But I suspect that perhaps that's what she would have liked things to be.  

-=- When you were young were you required to clean your room before being allowed to do things and this is a continuation of that?  Things to think about. -=-

Actually, we didn't have the "clean your room" thing -- we did when we were younger but when we were older, she didn't really push it too much.

-=- If you were talking about 2 children then I'd say "Great!" But you are talking about brokering a peace between a 5 year old and her grandmother. Let me just say this - YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR MOTHER'S HAPPINESS. You brought 2 children into the world and you are responsible for them. You are not responsible for your mother. You're not. -=-

Agreed, but there are several reasons as to why I did this:  

~ I am also responsible to show respect to my mother, so that my daughter will see that and reflect it in her relationship with me.  

~ I am responsible for my daughter's relationship with my mother, and I don't want her to see my mother as a villain.  

~ And I am showing my mother how our family deals with these situations, so hopefully she will understand and reflect them herself.

~ In our family, we don't say "no" -- we say "compromise". We work hard to help one another work to a compromise that both parties can be satisfied with.

~ I can model this way of conflict resolution for my daughter.


-=- To me, part of my role as an unschooling mom is to act as a buffer for my kids from the outside world. Grandparents and siblings (including in-laws) are part of that outside world and as such I do my best to ensure that those people don't damage my kids in ways that they damaged myself and my husband. -=-

I fear this way of thinking makes it a very "us versus them" world, which I cannot agree with. There aren't enough reasons to put those blinders on and say, "The outside world is evil and I can't let my children ever be tainted with that." My children are not sheltered from things -- when important events happen around the world, I sit and answer their questions, regardless of how hard they are to answer.

-=- Then hopefully she will be open to making changes in her behavior that will make things easier for you and your children. It has been my experience, however, that controlling Grandmothers have a hard time seeing that they need to change. It is much easier if YOU stay the same. Hence my questioning of your "fossilization-slowly" changes. -=-

Mom has a hard time not thinking that her way is the best way. Trust me, we've fought this battle many, many times before.

-=- If you have a 5 and a 2 year old then you are really not unschooling yet.  The older one would probably be going to school this fall and that's when you will truly be unschoolers. -=-

I never quite understood this comment.  I have heard it before.  I see unschooling as letting our children learn naturally about what interests them at the time.  There's no age restrictions on that.

-=- Let me ask you this - how do you think your mother is going to respond to the fact that your daughter will not be learning the same things in the same ways that she expects?  What will you say to her if your daughter is 7, 8, 9 years old and not reading.  Not adding and subtracting, doing work sheets, showing the kind of paper trail that she expects.  Her friend's grandchildren will be doing things differently and she will most likely draw comparisons.  I would suggest that if you are truly planning to unschool then you should start working on standing up for yourself and your decisions because it is not going to get easier. -=-

I am honestly already starting to hear this. "What are you teaching them? Do you need help buying curriculum? Look at the workbooks I bought them!" Ugh, frustrating. I've been trying to come up with an answer to this when it comes up. She won't like it.

-=- This suggests to me that it will not be an easy thing to go against your mother's wishes. I would suggest to you that it's time to stop pussy footing around her and get serious. Because if you are going to let your mother stand between you and your children (not sure how her relationship is with your husband) then that is going to be a serious impediment to unschooling. -=-

Not easy, no. She's fairly good at manipulating with guilt. But I'm not worried about that. I've been dealing with it for years -- I can handle it. As for my husband, they're not terribly close. We both deal with our separate families as issues come up. Works for us.

-=- The clock is ticking and I don't think you can afford to move at the pace of a fossil. I would suggest that it's time to step up and start standing fully behind your choices. If you can't do that then you may want to consider taking a more traditional path. And if your going to take a more traditional path then you probably want to start getting your daughter ready for that. Either way, it's time to get serious about it. -=-

To be honest, that's a rather bold and cut and dry statement. No one's unschooling looks the same as another's. I don't need to rush myself or my children to the detriment of our relationship or objectives in order to satisfy my mother or anyone else. I would rather frustrate others by taking things slow than ruin the experience for myself or my children. I stand fully behind my choices -- I'm just taking my time to make sure I'm making the right ones for my family. I am serious.

Nada

-=- "Well," she said, "I guess Nanny will just wait in the car when you go anywhere, since I don't want to be seen with you wearing that on your head.-=-

-=- This is a manipulative statement. I doubt very much that she intended this to simply be a problem solving strategy. She did it to guilt YOU into making your child take off the hood in public, or to make your daughter feel stupid for wanting to wear it, perhaps. -=-

Nail -- head.  ;)

-=- i wonder if her coming in and bathing the younger child is her way of manipulating you through guilt, as well. Do you think she is truly just trying to help? Or is she perhaps trying to give you the message that you aren't good enough? Your kids don't measure up? Having dealt with manipulative family members over the years, if you can question these things, it may help you. -=-

Manipulate through guilt?  Oh definitely.  But not so much because I'm not good enough or that my children don't measure up -- because I am not doing things her way.  If things were done her way (in other words, the way that the modern western world tells us to do things -- clean with chemicals, feed kids McDonalds', send them to public school, punishments are necessary, etc) we wouldn't have any problems.  She isn't so much manipulating as she just cannot get past the idea that her ways are the only ways to do things.  I've been fighting this battle for decades.

-=- Perhaps next time, your daughter will wear her hood and Nanny can suit herself, stay in the car or not. -=-

Lol.  I should suggest my daughter wear pajamas or a Halloween costume.  She gets irritated when my daughter doesn't have matching socks on.  :P  

Many blessings!
Mrs. Nada Sheppard

semajrak@...

<<But my poor sweet little girl was just so defeated at the idea of being forced to wear something she didn't want to that she just muttered, "No, it's fine" and moved on.>>

Maybe your daughter was irritated at being persuaded into wearing something else. She's not a victim, though. Don't make her out to be. She lives full time in an environment that supports her choices. It won't help her if you portray her at the mercy of her grandmother. And it won't help you come up with more helpful solutions for both parties if you view your daughter in this way.

<<Don't get me wrong -- my mother absolutely adores my children, and there's nothing my children love more than to visit with Nanny. But this comment just broke me.>>

Be thankful that your mom adores your kids and that you kids have a good relationship with their grandmother. Not every child has that in their lives. Try not to be too fragile. Don't break so easily. Your daughter will learn more from seeing how you competently handle the tricky parts in relationships, than she will from seeing you heartbroken. Almost all relationships have tricky parts. I wish they didn't, but they sure seem to, to me. When possible, navigate them with an attitude of generosity. Assume the best, and get those creative juices working in your favour to help your team succeed. Every successful negotiation will build confidence--in yourself, in your daughter, in your mom, and in whomever else you invite into your lives.

<<She needed me to be her champion>>

She needs you to be her partner--to help her learn to navigate relationships with the people she loves in such a way as to get the most out of those relationships. I don't think she needs you to be her champion. That seems too big to me. It sets someone up to win and someone up to lose. It nurtures the concept of adversaries. It brings to my mind the image of your daughter on a pedestal, hand held high. Walk together hand in hand while you, your daughter and your mom have this time together. It's a fleeting moment.  

Set your daughter up for success. Help her ahead of time find clothes she likes to wear, that you know her grandmother might like as well. Look ahead a bit to see how you can make things run more smoothly for everyone. The many small victories can be everyone's if your vision is wide enough.

Karen James

Sue K

Perhaps your mother could benefit from reading a parenting book, or Unschooling book, that resonates with your style.

Maybe choose a time, when you are both relaxed, and in a good place, to have a discussion about all of this.

Explain to her that your parenting philosophy is similar to hers but that you have some differences. Ask her if she would be willing to listen to them.

Maybe a little comparison chat about how her parenting may have differed slightly from her own mother, or grandmothers.

Tell her that you value her as your mom, and as a grandmother to your children, and that it's important to you, for the relationships between all of you to be as good as you possibly can make them.

Perhaps mention that there are new studies, or schools of thought, that suggest there are real benefits to allowing children to make many of their own safe choices. That allowing them to have a voice, and showing them that their opinion, and feelings, are just as important as ours, adds great value to their confidence and sense of self, when they become adults.

Maybe explain that your daughter felt upset about her forcing her to change, and ask your mom how she would feel if someone did that to her today.

Many people do not understand, that our children have the same kinds of feelings, and reactions, that we do!

Talk to her about all of this, with the spirit of creating a close relationship between all of you. Tell your mom that it's important to you, for all of you to be close, And you don't want anything to get in the way of that.

Definitely support your daughter through all of this! Explain that some parents don't allow their children to pick their own clothes And that granny may not understand that it's ok for them to! If your mom is receptive, and understanding about you allowing your daughter to make clothing choices on own, maybe you could help facilitate a little apology between them?

My parents have always been overbearing and intolerant of children.

It took many years for me to begin to stand up to them. I did it gradually, and with kindness.

Sometimes I have had to be firm, with my parents, like when they were being verbally abusive. Most times involved me physically leaving if they didn't stop. And I wouldn't make a huge deal at the time. Just say, well. I have things to do on the way home so we are going to get going. Then have the conversation later to say that's really not ok.

Sarah Thompson

I want to make a correction to my post of yesterday. I wrote that adoration is a complex emotion. That doesn't feel correct. I think adoration can be a simplistic emotion. It doesn't change what I intended, but what I wrote was inaccurate.

Sarah

Sandra Dodd

-=-Set your daughter up for success. Help her ahead of time find clothes she likes to wear, that you know her grandmother might like as well. Look ahead a bit to see how you can make things run more smoothly for everyone. The many small victories can be everyone's if your vision is wide enough.-=-

Karen James wrote that, but I wanted to expand on it a little.

My kids had grandparents until they were grown, on their dad’s side. My mother-in-law was kind of snarky about me, but I decided early on to never be mean about it, and I wasn’t. She lived into her 90’s, and eventually, because I had been nice to her and had prepared my children for visits to her, instead of trying to change her to suit me, after a dozen years or so she totally appreciated what unschooling was doing for our family, and said so, in writing—that we were good parents and our kids were great.

Cycles can be broken without screaming fights and door slamming.
Either life is long and you have some time, or life is short, and it’s not important.

Instead of thinking up even more irritating things for the granddaughter to wear, you could (easily, and kindly) find something that will satisfy the grandmother and the child. Without doing that, the problem is there, in the mother who wants to spite her own mother. That’s not partnering with your child.

A child who is not under attack doesn’t need a champion. The “attack” is left over in the mom.

Here’s a page about how unexamined childhood hurts can keep someone from being a good parent.
http://sandradodd.com/issues/
Also there are ideas to move beyond that, and it doesn’t need to involve dramatic confrontation.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Pam Laricchia’s book “Free to Learn” is fantastic for parents to read. It’s clear, and short, and practically perfect.

http://livingjoyfully.ca/books/

Sandra Dodd

-=- Perhaps next time, your daughter will wear her hood and Nanny can suit herself, stay in the car or not. -=-

Lol. I should suggest my daughter wear pajamas or a Halloween costume. She gets irritated when my daughter doesn't have matching socks on. :P
________________________

Let’s discuss ways to make our children’s l ives more peaceful, and to create an environment in which learning (about many more things than academics) can flourish.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-However, I tried relinquishing as many restrictions as I could when my oldest was 3ish, which is obviously too young, and I was so stressed out in giving her more freedoms, I actually ended up having panic attacks.-=-

“Freedom,” it turns out, has messed up many attempts at unschooling. When I find older uses of the term on my site, I try to rephrase now, as it tripped up too many people, and others outside this discussion wave it around like a banner, not helping ANYone.

http://sandradodd.com/freedom
So the bad thing is that the idea of “freedoms” caused you panic attacks.
The good thing is that changing just a bit, to thinking about options and choices, can cause you to be calm for life. :-)

“Freedom” suggests a person can do whatever the hell she wants to.

Making good choices will quickly show that each choice should be made in the light of immediate factors, for the good of as many people as possible.

Sandra

semajrak@...

<<She isn't so much manipulating as she just cannot get past the idea that her ways are the only ways to do things.  I've been fighting this battle for decades.>>

It sounds like you are beginning to understand what motivates your mom to do and say what she does.  Stop fighting, then.  Stop seeing the dynamic with your mom as a battle.  Find ways to be calm around your mom as you do what works best for you and your family, your mom included.  The evidence you leave behind of a joyful, vibrant, well-functioning family will likely give her another perspective to base her opinions on.  For now, her view is limited.  Hopefully it will expand.  The chances of that happening are better when you stop focusing on trying to make her who you want her to be.  

My parents are closing in on their nineties now.  My relationship with them has strengthened a lot in recent years, in large part because I started to accept them as their own people, with their own life experiences that shaped who they are and how they interact in the world.  I stopped trying to imagine them into the parents I wished I had, and started to look for and appreciate the little things they did do for me that helped shape the good parts of who I have become.  

That more generous outlook was liberating to us all.  My dad said "I love you" to me for the first time in my forties, and has said it nearly every time I've talked to him since.  I'm one of the few people (if not the only) he risks saying those words to.  I'm glad I could be that for him.  I love hearing those words every single time.

That didn't happen because I bullied him into being who I wanted him to be.  It was borne out of my accepting him for who he was, so that I could focus my attention on being my best self too.  That's been a powerful example for me to learn from.  Learning to truly appreciate our children for who they are can overflow into other relationships when we let it.  It's one of the many gifts of unschooling, I believe.

Karen James

Sarah Thompson

This seems pertinent-

-
That didn't happen because I bullied him into being who I wanted him to be.  It was borne out of my accepting him for who he was, so that I could focus my attention on being my best self too.  That's been a powerful example for me to learn from.  Learning to truly appreciate our children for who they are can overflow into other relationships when we let it.  -

I don't think it's possible to bully people into being anyone else, anyway. Working on loving the person as they are, and being our own best selves, is the only hope for truly strengthening a relationship. Strengthening the relationship with your mom might be the best approach to smoothing the path with your children. As I posted before, there is a *lot* of heartache to go around if it doesn't get smoothed.
Sarah

Jennifer Waller

While every post in this forum offers food for thought, reading this particular thread proved timely just days before my upcoming holiday visit with my parents.

Not too long ago, when I was less aware of my thoughts and choices, I would become physically and mentally fatigued about a week before a planned visit with my parents.  I believed that the cause was the preparation in planning and executing the long trip away from home with my young children.  Having it firmly set in my mind that I loved my parents, I never suspected that being with them would be the root of such a dip in energy.  My parents were on a pedastal, in spite of the trouble we encountered while I lived under their roof.  Our conflicts, I concluded, were normal and commonplace.  

However, the past fifteen months or so have seen changes in me that has turned that assumption on it's head.  I should note that the changes have reached every aspect of my life, yet I am here to focus mainly on the parent-relationship part. I am going to digress a bit and I hope it is not too much to write here.  I promise I will get to the point.  :-)

Growing up, I was surrounded by a conservative, Catholic, semi-cultish way of thinking.  My grandparents, aunts, uncles and parents all agreed that we would probably experience the "End of Times" in our lifetime.  The part of the apocolyptic story that fascinated me the most (the Bible was rarely encouraged, so I am not sure how much of this is based on Scripture.  As I said, my family had fringe, somewhat cultish ideas that were outside mainstream Catholicism) was the claim that during the Rapture, mankind would get a terrifying glimpse into the darkness of their hearts.  It would be a glimpse into the nature of our unacknowleged sin, and it would be a soul-shattering experience.  I think that's when all the "gnashing of teeth" was supposed to happen.  It troubled me, not so much out of fear, but philosophically, because I could not fathom how we could all be so ignorant of our sins.  As a girl, I was very good at making a list of the things I needed to go over in Confession, and I puzzled over the idea that we were capable of leaving so much out.  

I am no longer religious and find comfort in being able to set expectation of the "End Times"  aside.  But so as to not "throw out the baby with the bathwater", I still like to think about some of the things I learned about as a Catholic, and to reframe them in my new way of thinking.  At times, something that puzzled me when I was in the religion, makes more sense now that I am out of the religion, if that makes sense :-)  

What I am getting at with all this talk of the rapturous insight is this:  When I began reading Sandra's work, and subsequently all the other fantastic people I have discovered as a result, I suddenly understood what it was to be ignorant of my sins, and to suddenly have light shine upon them.  I understood that I had been defending a lot of dark habits and actions, and as I began to examine those, it inevitably led me to a closer examination of my upbringing.  I was shocked, almost to the point of much gnashing of teeth, to discover that much of what I believed was concerned and loving parenting, was in fact manipulative, selfish and myopic in scope. It became clear why I would become nearly ill before my visits with my mom and dad.   Down came the pedastal.  I experienced how soul-shattering it can be to look inside.  

In acknowleging the problems with my parents, I naturally circled back to the problems I had with my spouse and children. I had to admit that I had often chosen the same relationship strategies my parents had chosen, which was mainly to control the situation at all costs.  I knew I could not stand over them in judgment.  That has been hard, because I had not allowed myself to get very angry with them as a youth.  I had defended and admired them, even when they were cruel, usually chalking their actions up to what any good parent would do.  I elevated them to a lofty and unrealistic status.  
So when I did admit that they had made mistakes, it came in an angry flood.  I believe I sat in a stupor an entire afternoon, experiencing wave after wave of disgust as each memory came to the surface.  Then followed a period where I turned upon myself and recalled times that I had played out similar dynamics with my children.

Now the dust has settled, and awareness has taken firmer root, and while I still get sad, hope is close at hand. Unfortunately, the relationship with my parents has worsened, which I know doesn't sound hopeful.  But it has not worsened because of my realizatons.  There has not been a confrontation or discussion involving what I have learned.  What is happening to my parents, I believe would have happened regardless of what changes I have gone through.  They have chosen the path of alcoholism and it seems to get deeper each year.  So while that part of the story is not so uplifting, what HAS improved is my ability to deal with the situation in a healthy way.  Without a doubt, I owe a big chunk of my positive movement forward to the loving and rational discussion that occurs on this list.

This post about "being a champion for my daughter" and the discussion it sparked is a great example of how I have been helped here.  Upon reading the original poster's account of the grandmother manipulating her granddaughter's attire, I could immediately feel an emotional response rising inside of me.  My knee-jerk reactions were bubbling pretty fiercly by the time I concluded my reading.  I was sympathizing heavily with the young girl in the story.  

I once had a pair of Converse All-Stars on which I had inscribed all of my favorite band logos.  At thirteen, they were a prized possession.  I wore them everywhere, so I had them on when we left for a holiday visit with extended family.  About halfway through the carride, my mother noticed what shoes I was wearing and flew into a rage.  She had my father pull the car over, came to the backseat where I was, and intimidated me into handing my shoes over to her.  She instructed my father to continue driving and when he reached full speed, she tossed my shoes out the window, one at a time.  When we reached our destination, she made a big deal about telling all of my relatives that we had to go to a department store to get me some proper shoes (which ended up being some awkward dress shoes).  The way everyone coped with the shame of the incident was to make a big joke about it.  My parents still tell the story and laugh about how rebellious I was. In a few years, I had fully internalized and accepted their claims that I was wickedly rebellious, and I began adulthood as a confused and frightened young woman.  

I felt a pang of grief while I pictured the young girl with her harmless hood and the grandmother who didn't want to be seen with her.  Then, I read the first and inflammatory (albiet, with good intentions) response in the List.  My blood started boiling and I wanted to shout an "Amen" as the writer challenged the original poster to confront the challenge with her mother head on.  All of my hurt was merging with the hurt of the one I was reading about, and there was only the narrow feeling of wanting it to end NOW and at all costs.

But then came the posts that are the reason I keep coming back here; the ones that point toward alternate paths,  gradual change, and understanding.  I come here not to get myself into flames of emotion or to attack issues.  Letting my emotions addictingly take over has gotten me into enough messes.  

I am here because of the sensible examples of folks thinking things through and urging a course that is thoughtful and peaceful.  

I am going to see my parents in two days and I am feeling better about it than I have, probably, ever.  Unfortunately, they are more steeped in alcohol than ever, but I am not angry about it and I know better than to take it personally.  It is painful, but I have tools to deal with the pain constructively.  I didn't want to let this day pass without thanking you (when I say "you" I mean everyone who posts so thoughtfully here) for your contribution to my healing.

It is true that I regressed for a minute, getting caught up in the drama and pain of the wrongs of my childhood.  You were there to remind me that I love my parents, that they didn't always have it easy growing up, and ultimately I want things to get better.  For that to happen,  I need to make conscious and loving choices.  I need to let it happen one moment at a time, and not get in such a damn fury over it.  

Many thanks!  

Jennifer

Sandra Dodd

Jennifer, I’m really sorry about your mom throwing your shoes out the window. That’s really awful. She should’ve looked at you before you left the house (and many other times, lovingly, and kindly), and found other shoes at home. Or just put them away when you got there. I was sad for thirteen-year-old you when I read that.

My mom threw a yoyo out the car window once because I wouldn’t put the string on my middle finger. I had it on my index finger. She got so mad that I wouldn’t do it the way she said to, that she said give it to me, and just threw it out.

On a long car ride, she threatened to throw my teddy bear out the window because I was holding him up to an open window so he could “see out.” Twelve-hour drive, parents smoking, me easily car sick… Just the thought that she would CONSIDER throwing him out still hurts me. I still have that bear, but my mom is gone and I don’t mind that. Still, I was kind to her and tried to help her to the end.

If someone battles for years, they have either battled and won (caused a loss to the opponent), or have battled and lost (so it was a waste of time and energy, and surely did them harm).

The world is big, Avoidance is better than fighting.

My own integrity and my own goodness/virtue/whatever one wants to consider that was more important to me than “winning” something that couldn’t be won and wasn’t worth winning. My mom was sober for nine years, until Kirby was nine or ten, and she started drinking again. It was a nice break, for me, but by then I was learning that I shouldn’t try to “fix her” or save her, because I couldn’t anyway. Detachment. By the time she started up again, I was stronger and more solid, and had three children, and knew first hand that NOT drinking was better for me, my relationship with my husband, and for my children. So I lived there, and helped my mom a little when she asked, and stayed a polite distance when she wasn’t asking.

Living so that our children have fewer traumatic memories is better than trying (vainly) to change the past, or to change their grandparents.

Jennifer’s ending is beautiful:

-=- I need to make conscious and loving choices. I need to let it happen one moment at a time, and not get in such a damn fury over it. -=-

Amen.

Sandra

Robyn Coburn

FYI - Sleep is the sixth.

Food, Chores, Television, Electronic gaming, Personal Care/hygiene, Sleep/bedtimes

The six most common types of issues that come up most frequently on groups and lists and cause the most fear in parents outside of academic questions. There are a few others (eg spirituality and manners) that come up rarely.

Robyn C.

Sandra Dodd

Robyn, is that list from a talk you did? Or from your writing?

(Food, Chores, Television, Electronic gaming, Personal Care/hygiene, Sleep/bedtimes)

One of the oldest pages on this site is this:
http://sandradodd.com/life

It covers most of that, and some of the courtesy and spirituality, too. :-)

Sandra

Robyn Coburn

I coined the phrase a long time ago. I talked about the six concerns at Live & Learn St. Louis (2006?) in reference to little ones.
And now it has become a kind of Basics or Beginning unschooling panel at a couple of conferences.

It was just a lighthearted thing based on my observation of the repeated issues back when I was on several lists as well as owning Always Unschooled.

It was not that they were the most important or crucial parenting issues, just the most often asked about in the "but what about ....." Mode.


Robyn Coburn
Résumé Review http://WorkInProduction.com
Creativity Blast http://IggyJingles.com
Design Team http://scraPerfect.com

Nada

Well I appreciate it Robyn.  I wasn't aware of unschooling in 2006, much less even a mother, so I wouldn't have gotten to hear your discussion -- a missed opportunity, to be sure.  But the list helps me -- I can pick one of those and slowly figure out where I'm at, and work on just that one thing, rather than trying to dive in head first (and drown).

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 18, 2015, at 5:28 AM, "Robyn Coburn dezignarob@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:

 

I coined the phrase a long time ago. I talked about the six concerns at Live & Learn St. Louis (2006?) in reference to little ones.
And now it has become a kind of Basics or Beginning unschooling panel at a couple of conferences.

It was just a lighthearted thing based on my observation of the repeated issues back when I was on several lists as well as owning Always Unschooled.

It was not that they were the most important or crucial parenting issues, just the most often asked about in the "but what about ....." Mode.

Robyn Coburn
Résumé Review http://WorkInProduction.com
Creativity Blast http://IggyJingles.com
Design Team http://scraPerfect.com

Megan Valnes

-=-On a long car ride, she threatened to throw my teddy bear out the window because I was holding him up to an open window so he could “see out.”-=-

Sandra, my heart breaks for little Sandra when I read this. I read it for the first time a few days ago and have thought about it a lot since. Your innocence and sweetness juxtaposed to a jaded meanness makes my eyes well up with tears. 

The most beneficial thing radical unschooling has taught is empathy. True empathy. There may have been a time when one of my kid's would have been doing something that irritated me tremendously and I would have lashed out for them to "stop it! I'll get rid of all those ______ if you don't stop bugging me with them!" I cringe to remember that old self. That very reactive and unthoughtful self. And guess who I learned it from? My mom. My own mother, whom I love dearly and tenderly today, was a most reactive and quick tempered woman while I was growing up. She asked me questions and never listened, she was more concerned with men than me, and as a child, I was always much happier at my dad's house. And then, the day after my 14th birthday, my oldest sister died and suddenly my mother realized that her children were mortal and she worked on changing herself. The change didn't happen overnight, and like most of us, she's still working on becoming a better person. Even though she made big changes to herself, it took a long time for me to forgive her and when I had my oldest child at the young age of 22, a lot of the hurt she had caused me flooded my memory and heart in full force. Once I held my son in my arms, I thought "how could she ever have treated me like that? She never loved me!" And then as my son got older and more babies came, I found myself unconsciously mimicking her behavior toward me. I was reactive and short tempered. I didn't want to "play" with my children. I wanted lots of kids, but I thought being a mother meant keeping them clean, polite, and conformed to what society wanted them to be, even though I have been a rebel my entire life! As my oldest son floundered, I realized something had to change. And that something was me. I found radical unschooling and as per that short-tempered, do-it-now self, wanted to jump in head first and be a radical unschooler!!

But, I listened to the sage advice given on this forum and went slowly. One thing at a time, I told myself. I am SO GRATEFUL that my kids were all still quite young when I came to radical unschooling because they are getting the best of me and my husband! And I have truly forgiven my mother because if nothing else, unschooling has taught me empathy. Now, when my children are playing joyously, I feel inner joy and peace. When we're in the car and they want to play car games, I am so happy to play with them! I love that they consider me fun and attentive. I love that they give me big hugs and tell me how much they love me. And that when they're having a problem with something, or my oldest son is crying because he can't get his PS4 to work, I don't do what my mother would have done (get impatient and act incompetent as a helper), I EMPATHIZE with him and help. I tell myself "imagine if you were him and something very important to you isn't working, how would you feel?" And my husband does the same. We are all working together as a team and helping each other as though our own joy depended on it. And it does! Our children know that we are on their team--something I never got from my own mother. And that's okay now. I've really forgiven her and she is now learning from me! She says to me all the time "oh, I wish I would have had your wisdom and raised you all this way." 

Little does she know, it's not really my wisdom :). It's the wisdom I've learned here.

And, now I can empathize with her. And the way she was raised. In fact, she pours her heart out to me over the traumas she experienced with her own mother. She can still be reactive and she's still not the best listener in the world, but my children love her and so do I. She stays with the kids sometimes and raves about them and they about her. They know the difference--with Hunny (what they call her), they watch whatever she wants to watch on TV because she can't stand cartoons, and they're okay with that. They complain a bit, but the whole sum of the experience with Hunny is greater that the parts. 

My point in all this writing, is that radical unschooling can bring about such a sense of peace with one's own self, that it can be poured into the being of another. I *enjoy* finding ways to make other people around me comfortable, including my children. I *want* the people who come to my home to enjoy their experience here. Sometimes, we have to bend a little for others, and isn't that empathy? To feel another's feeling and adjust your own reaction to fit their need? Keeping peace has become the number one priority in our home, so sometimes we have to get creative to make that happen! Consideration for others is key.
 
I hope this helps with the situation with your mom. It's funny because I called my grandmother Nanny too. And I loved my nanny so much! I miss her everyday! The gift of grandparents is real, so please try to make it work. 








Warmly,
Megan





On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 4:14 PM, Nada nada.sheppard@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

Well I appreciate it Robyn.  I wasn't aware of unschooling in 2006, much less even a mother, so I wouldn't have gotten to hear your discussion -- a missed opportunity, to be sure.  But the list helps me -- I can pick one of those and slowly figure out where I'm at, and work on just that one thing, rather than trying to dive in head first (and drown).

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 18, 2015, at 5:28 AM, "Robyn Coburn dezignarob@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:

 

I coined the phrase a long time ago. I talked about the six concerns at Live & Learn St. Louis (2006?) in reference to little ones.
And now it has become a kind of Basics or Beginning unschooling panel at a couple of conferences.

It was just a lighthearted thing based on my observation of the repeated issues back when I was on several lists as well as owning Always Unschooled.

It was not that they were the most important or crucial parenting issues, just the most often asked about in the "but what about ....." Mode.

Robyn Coburn
Résumé Review http://WorkInProduction.com
Creativity Blast http://IggyJingles.com
Design Team http://scraPerfect.com


janine davies

Megan thank you so much for writing this. 
I personally have found it so helpful to read your beautiful reminder that empathy is one of the most beneficial things to come from radical unschooling.
It's a timely reminder for me too,  in the week I found out that my mum is visiting again this summer from Australia, and for a long period. 

I'm sure many others will have got so much from your writing this also.
 
I had such a harsh childhood with my mothers temper and intolerance and meanness, and with physical violence, and often. 
I cried reading all the stories in this thread. 
 
I felt like empathy died in me eventually, and fear and anxiety grew in its place, and have clouded my whole life until I found radical unschooling. 

I have written of the regrets I have with coming to this so late with my son, and I suspect he may still have some stored anger and resentment towards me in his memories....But I will keep on keeping on with kindness and empathy as my guides, and hopefully the burning fire like pain in his belly will be very tiny compared to the wildfire I had raging in mine for many years , and can still be ignited in her presence if I'm not being mindful. 

Deeply Loving connecting and empathising with my boys has helped me every day to keep that fire out, and in her presence especially. I wrote about that victory and realisation once on here, and its now on Sandra's healing page (anonymously though, just in case...).  
Il link it here as it seems appropriate to this thread: http://sandradodd.com/healing

Thank you again Megan for this writing, and to all the others who have shared their experiences on this thread. 

Janine x




Janine Davies
07971278765
Co Owner/Director of Movement Warriors
www.movementwarriors.com




To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 09:30:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Becoming My Child's Champion (Long Testimonial)

 

-=-On a long car ride, she threatened to throw my teddy bear out the window because I was holding him up to an open window so he could “see out.”-=-

Sandra, my heart breaks for little Sandra when I read this. I read it for the first time a few days ago and have thought about it a lot since. Your innocence and sweetness juxtaposed to a jaded meanness makes my eyes well up with tears. 

The most beneficial thing radical unschooling has taught is empathy. True empathy. There may have been a time when one of my kid's would have been doing something that irritated me tremendously and I would have lashed out for them to "stop it! I'll get rid of all those ______ if you don't stop bugging me with them!" I cringe to remember that old self. That very reactive and unthoughtful self. And guess who I learned it from? My mom. My own mother, whom I love dearly and tenderly today, was a most reactive and quick tempered woman while I was growing up. She asked me questions and never listened, she was more concerned with men than me, and as a child, I was always much happier at my dad's house. And then, the day after my 14th birthday, my oldest sister died and suddenly my mother realized that her children were mortal and she worked on changing herself. The change didn't happen overnight, and like most of us, she's still working on becoming a better person. Even though she made big changes to herself, it took a long time for me to forgive her and when I had my oldest child at the young age of 22, a lot of the hurt she had caused me flooded my memory and heart in full force. Once I held my son in my arms, I thought "how could she ever have treated me like that? She never loved me!" And then as my son got older and more babies came, I found myself unconsciously mimicking her behavior toward me. I was reactive and short tempered. I didn't want to "play" with my children. I wanted lots of kids, but I thought being a mother meant keeping them clean, polite, and conformed to what society wanted them to be, even though I have been a rebel my entire life! As my oldest son floundered, I realized something had to change. And that something was me. I found radical unschooling and as per that short-tempered, do-it-now self, wanted to jump in head first and be a radical unschooler!!

But, I listened to the sage advice given on this forum and went slowly. One thing at a time, I told myself. I am SO GRATEFUL that my kids were all still quite young when I came to radical unschooling because they are getting the best of me and my husband! And I have truly forgiven my mother because if nothing else, unschooling has taught me empathy. Now, when my children are playing joyously, I feel inner joy and peace. When we're in the car and they want to play car games, I am so happy to play with them! I love that they consider me fun and attentive. I love that they give me big hugs and tell me how much they love me. And that when they're having a problem with something, or my oldest son is crying because he can't get his PS4 to work, I don't do what my mother would have done (get impatient and act incompetent as a helper), I EMPATHIZE with him and help. I tell myself "imagine if you were him and something very important to you isn't working, how would you feel?" And my husband does the same. We are all working together as a team and helping each other as though our own joy depended on it. And it does! Our children know that we are on their team--something I never got from my own mother. And that's okay now. I've really forgiven her and she is now learning from me! She says to me all the time "oh, I wish I would have had your wisdom and raised you all this way." 

Little does she know, it's not really my wisdom :). It's the wisdom I've learned here.

And, now I can empathize with her. And the way she was raised. In fact, she pours her heart out to me over the traumas she experienced with her own mother. She can still be reactive and she's still not the best listener in the world, but my children love her and so do I. She stays with the kids sometimes and raves about them and they about her. They know the difference--with Hunny (what they call her), they watch whatever she wants to watch on TV because she can't stand cartoons, and they're okay with that. They complain a bit, but the whole sum of the experience with Hunny is greater that the parts. 

My point in all this writing, is that radical unschooling can bring about such a sense of peace with one's own self, that it can be poured into the being of another. I *enjoy* finding ways to make other people around me comfortable, including my children. I *want* the people who come to my home to enjoy their experience here. Sometimes, we have to bend a little for others, and isn't that empathy? To feel another's feeling and adjust your own reaction to fit their need? Keeping peace has become the number one priority in our home, so sometimes we have to get creative to make that happen! Consideration for others is key.
 
I hope this helps with the situation with your mom. It's funny because I called my grandmother Nanny too. And I loved my nanny so much! I miss her everyday! The gift of grandparents is real, so please try to make it work. 








Warmly,
Megan





On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 4:14 PM, Nada nada.sheppard@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

Well I appreciate it Robyn.  I wasn't aware of unschooling in 2006, much less even a mother, so I wouldn't have gotten to hear your discussion -- a missed opportunity, to be sure.  But the list helps me -- I can pick one of those and slowly figure out where I'm at, and work on just that one thing, rather than trying to dive in head first (and drown).

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 18, 2015, at 5:28 AM, "Robyn Coburn dezignarob@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:

 
I coined the phrase a long time ago. I talked about the six concerns at Live & Learn St. Louis (2006?) in reference to little ones.
And now it has become a kind of Basics or Beginning unschooling panel at a couple of conferences.

It was just a lighthearted thing based on my observation of the repeated issues back when I was on several lists as well as owning Always Unschooled.

It was not that they were the most important or crucial parenting issues, just the most often asked about in the "but what about ....." Mode.

Robyn Coburn
Résumé Review http://WorkInProduction.com
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Sandra Dodd

Janine wrote:

-=-I have written of the regrets I have with coming to this so late with my son, and I suspect he may still have some stored anger and resentment towards me in his memories....But I will keep on keeping on with kindness and empathy as my guides, and hopefully the burning fire like pain in his belly will be very tiny compared to the wildfire I had raging in mine for many years , and can still be ignited in her presence if I'm not being mindful. -=-

I stopped arguing with my mom or criticizing her, in her later years. I wasn’t really loving, I was just neutral/cold. I wish things had worked out so that I could have been warmer with her. Yes, her upbringing was hard, but she had been shown lots of generosity by others as an adult and was cynical and suspicious and critical instead of accepting, most of the time. Until friends of mine steered me toward Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings in 1985, I was still trying to rescue and repair my mom, to support her (emotionally) and to bail her out financially and physically when she needed it, which was pretty often.

Although it inconvenience my mom, I’m glad I found people who told me that someone else can’t “fix” an alcoholic, and that I was allowing her to ruin more lives than her own if I lived in her shadow as an adult. I didn’t turn by back on her; she came to live with us for a year, and went to AA, and was sober for nine years. But still…if a relationship can be salvaged, or if children and grandparents are afforded contact even if the middle generation is pissed off and wary, there are lots of advantages.

Sandra

sukaynalabboun@...

I completely understand the pain of being the resilient child :-/ the accounts mentioned above are unfortunately familiar family stories. I am so pleased that we have all seen that we can do better, and have chosen to parent in a different way! And thanks Sandra for all your effort in this!
I agree that when possible, working through solutions to meet everyones needs or diffuse potentially difficult situations is indeed the better choice. I am still frustrated with my family and their inability to even grasp that they were/ are extremely abusive and cold. I have (for my part) tried to meet them halfway, or better. For years, though, is has been the way Sandra described her polite distance. I would have LOVED it if they would have been in any way the extended family my kids deserve, so if there is any hope left in that relationship and you can manage, I would encourage you to give it several attempts before withdrawal.

As others here have noted, kids are remarkably flexible and adept when they are included in the planning/ problem solving. I get some of my best advice from them :-)
Maybe the things that bug you are magnified in light of your history, maybe preventative measure would make things better. Not perfect but manageable.