Marinella Abbondati

In another thread Sandra said: 
==If the relationship is bad enough that they will say "go away" to an adult and then that adult thinks it's respectful to follow that order, the problems are different than described.==

I would love some perspective on just such a problem. My three-year-old often tells my husband and my mother to "go away". It's like an angry, emotional reaction when one of those two people enters the room he is in, or when they try to engage with him. He doesn't say it to me, nor does he say it to other adults. After me, his dad and grandmother are the two adults he is closest to, but his relationships with both of them are a bit rocky.

His dad and grandmother are obviously both upset by this - they see it as rude and also as a hurtful rejection. It has also caused tension between us adults, both my husband and my mother expect me to be harsher than I am when he acts this way. They'd like me to shout at him or take some other kind of disciplinary action. Both of them go away, feeling hurt, upset, annoyed. I will tell him calmly that it's not OK to say "go away" to people because it makes them feel sad. Then generally it gets left there, and the cycle repeats. 

There has been a lot of upheaval in our lives recently which has exacerbated the problem, but it's not a new thing. 

I want to help him understand that speaking to his dad or grandmother in this way is not OK, yet I also recognise that there is something unpleasant going on for him that's causing him to react in this way. I try to talk to him about it, he obviously can't yet articulate much but he says things like "I didn't want daddy to talk to me", "I don't want granny to have breakfast with us" - I get the sense that their presence makes him feel insecure or threatened. It's as if he would like just to be in a bubble with me, and resents the intrusion of dad or grandma. Outside of home, he is generally sociable and will play happily and respectfully with other children and adults. 

I recognised a while ago that I am sometimes rude to my husband and my mother, so I wasn't being a good model. Maybe I was also conveying unwittingly that those two people are somehow threatening, because my son doesn't see me fighting with or being rude to anyone else. I've been trying very hard to be nicer, sweeter, kinder, more respectful. I hope partly with time this will help my son be kinder too, and to realise that his dad and grandma are not threats.

But I'd also like to be more proactive right now, and I'm a bit stuck for practical ideas on how to facilitate nicer interactions between all of us. I would really appreciate some input. Thanks very much in advance.

Marinella

Sandra Dodd

-=-There has been a lot of upheaval in our lives recently which has exacerbated the problem, but it's not a new thing. -=-

Maybe you could mention that to your husband and mom—that he will react to an unstable or frightening situation, and they shouldn't expect him to be more mature than the adults are being, or more mature than a three year old can be.

On the other hand, if you're taking sides with him against the other adults, you are (as you've indicated you already know) making the situation worse.

Maybe it would help for you to say to him "Help me be nicer to your dad and granny, because they're not very happy lately and we should help them be happier" or some version of that that he might understand.

-=-he says things like "I didn't want daddy to talk to me", "I don't want granny to have breakfast with us"-=-

If you ask him why not, you might be able to express their side, or thoughts, to him in a way that will make him more compassionate. Just in a baby way, though—don't talk to him so much that he tells YOU to go away.

Maybe you could ask him to try not to say anything, if he feels like saying something mean. Meanness builds up, and can't be taken back.
Then you might make that suggestion to the adults, too. But don't just ask them to ignore each other. Ask them to make the other people's lives more comfortable.

-=-I've been trying very hard to be nicer, sweeter, kinder, more respectful. I hope partly with time this will help my son be kinder too, and to realise that his dad and grandma are not threats.-=-

Asking him to help you might help him be more aware that there are choices to be made in the world about how to act, and help him see the situation. That will depend partly on his interpersonal and intrapersonal abilities. Some people have lots of that, and some not so much. http://sandradodd.com/intelligences

-=-But I'd also like to be more proactive right now, and I'm a bit stuck for practical ideas on how to facilitate nicer interactions between all of us. -=-
Maybe be present more, and ready to turn a negative back toward positive. Keep conversations light and toward something he's interested in, perhaps, when Granny's over to eat. Look for things his dad can do or discuss while you're all three or four together that will enhance their connection and relationship.

Don't expect things to change immediately, but if you don't start somewhere and sometime, you can expect things to get worse.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/change

Sandra

Christine Milne

== I will tell him calmly that it's not OK to say "go away" to people because it makes them feel sad. ==
 
When he’s an adult, do you want him to keep hanging out with people he doesn’t want to hang out with, or who are bad for him, so that he doesn’t make them feel sad? It is okay for him to choose who he wants to be with. There are kinder ways to treat people and he will learn those as grows, but for now, ‘Go away’ is the best he’s got.
 
== Both of them go away, feeling hurt, upset, annoyed. ==
 
That is a lot of pressure for a 3 year old! Could they *not* go away? Could they say instead, well, I am not going to leave the responsibility of this relationship to you. I am the adult, and I will take responsibility for improving our relationship. It is really hard, when you feel hurt, but in the end he is a small child who is upset. Perhaps in part because he craves the right kind of attention and attachment from these two people, and doesn’t feel he’s getting it.  If they could push through their feelings of hurt, and persist, try to engage with him wherever he’s at, then they can build up a loving relationship with him.
 
== his relationships with both of them are a bit rocky. ==
 
And it is their job to improve that, not his. Human nature is such that he wants to be attached to these two people, his father and grandmother. He’s not able to explain what’s wrong, or why he feels out of sorts with them. But he absolutely wants things to be better.
 
 
Christine

dancing_ajones@...

Is there a point at which the conversation with the 3year old includes explanation of the other person's feelings and ways to accept responsibility for the hurt his words have made? 
I have found that my 2year old is able to comprehend when a sister is wounded or hurt feelings or upset by something she did. So I was wondering what others here think... if this might be an appropriate time to introduce the concept at a simple level for him? I don't force an apology, but I teach them how, and it seems to go a long way to restore good relations, once everyone is calmed down. 
It's not a big thing, or hard, once the child is calm and wanting interaction again, to encourage them to do so, at least here. Just wondering what others think about this, and maybe include that in the process for everyone?
I agree that it isn't fully on the 3year old's shoulders to "fix" the relationships. Just thinking that an acknowledgement from him might also be one piece of the process to improve family relations. 

Sandra Dodd

-=-When he’s an adult, do you want him to keep hanging out with people he doesn’t want to hang out with, or who are bad for him, so that he doesn’t make them feel sad?-=-

If they're his partners or children, maybe. If they're his aging parents, maybe, for a while, occasionally, he should hang out with them even if he can think of something that's more fun.

For a three year old, the fact (fact, reality) that rudeness makes a grandparent sad is the simplified version of what he should be being helped to understand gradually over the coming years, which is that being rude can cause him to lose friends and opportunities.

-=- It is okay for him to choose who he wants to be with.-=-

I don't see this as a fact. Some people want to choose to be with someone and it ends up being stalking, or unrequited love, or frustration and disappointment.

If you mean that a three year old has the right or power to reject the company of an adult, that's not true, either. If he's staying with his dad while the mom goes to the store or library or a doctor or to work, he cann't "choose who he wants to be with." There are natural and legal requirements for adults to care for children.

-=-There are kinder ways to treat people and he will learn those as grows, but for now, ‘Go away’ is the best he’s got.-=-

Then someone isn't coaching him very well.
http://sandradodd.com/coaching
(and anyone who skims that page instead of reading it thoughtfully will cause more damage than good to their own souls and understanding)

Unschooling should not be used to encourage rudeness, for to discourage a parent from helping a child be kinder or more thoughtful.

http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2015/04/be-nice.html

Many of the Just Add Light posts in the past few weeks might be helpful to parents with questions about a child's right to be rude, or their right to impose their early-stage misunderstandings of unschooling on other people.

Sandra

K Pennell

What is the context? Is your son in his room when he tells people to go away? If so, perhaps you can teach him to say "I'd rather be alone right now" instead, because it is nicer. When my son was in the living room and told his brother to "go away", I'd remind him if he wanted privacy, he could hang out in his room but that the living room is for all of us. (Obviously, if the younger one was intentionally bothering his brother, like standing right in front of the tv, I'd help out/redirect the younger, and stay close by).








Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't force an apology, but I teach them how...-=-
-=-perhaps you can teach him to say "I'd rather be alone right now" -=-

As the primary topic here is unschooling, it seems entirely reasonable for advice NOT to be to "teach" a child to do any trick or behavior.
Suggesting, explaining, requesting.... not teaching.

When this word is coming up, the author is NOT coming from a place of experienced unschooling. ALL responses here should be made with unschooling principles first in mind.

Sandra

dancing_ajones@...


Yes. Thank you for clarifying that, Sandra. I'm "new" 
I apologize for what sounded like I was advising with my thoughts. 
For clarity, my working visual definition when I wrote "teaching" IS suggesting, explaining, requesting, modeling, and helping walk through doing it when they are willing. 
I am trying my best to create an unschooling home, to deschool myself, and my question is to get better understanding. 
At what point does the conversation with the 3year old include explanation of the other person's feelings and ways to accept responsibility for the hurt his words have made? I have situations similar to this. 

-April
 

=-I don't force an apology, but I teach them how...-=-
-=-perhaps you can teach him to say "I' d rather be alone right now" -=-

As the primary topic here is unschooling, it seems entirely reasonable for advice NOT to be to "teach" a child to do any trick or behavior.
Suggesting, explaining, requesting.. .. not teaching.

When this word is coming up, the author is NOT coming from a place of experienced unschooling. ALL responses here should be made with unschooling principles first in mind. 

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

> On Apr 27, 2015, at 10:04 AM, dancing_ajones@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> At what point does the conversation with the 3year old
> include explanation of the other person's feelings

Generally the answer is, "All along." But not as information handed to the child expecting them to understand and change their behavior accordingly.

"No, that hurts," is a natural way to share the other's view. Put the information out there for the child to take in. The child will understand when they're ready to understand.

It's like having conversations with an infant. A baby doesn't understand the first, "Let's get that diaper changed." The baby may not even understand the 100th, but it's said anyway because if it's not there the baby won't ever understand.

If your goal is getting your child to understand, that will get in the way of unschooling. Better for unschooling is creating an environment where information is available for the child to pick up when they're ready for it.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-If your goal is getting your child to understand, that will get in the way of unschooling. Better for unschooling is creating an environment where information is available for the child to pick up when they're ready for it.-=-

This is a great point.

I used to say things like "There's a nicer way to say that," or "Yikes, nobody was being mean to you." Rather than tell the what to do, I would conversationally give them a thing to think about (or not, if they weren't ready).

There's a six year old at our house this season (Kirby's girlfriend's daughter). I'm getting some new experience. :-) She hasn't had stability until January 2014—was with one and another relative, back and forth between her mom and grandmother (grandmother and four others in a trailer house for a while), in less-than-peaceful surroundings, until she was nearly five. Her questions can be accusatory and irritating, and her tone of voice can be confrontational, but Keith and I keep reminding each other that it must be she heard such things while she was learning to speak, and was questioned in those tones herself. So while we might say something, we still give her food and help her out. :-)

It will be gradual, that she will become nicer. Shaming her or withholding assistance wouldn't help. Ignoring it wouldn't be great either, because sending her out in the world knowing others will be bristly isn't good help.

http://sandradodd.com/balance
When someone asks "When should I..." or "How much should I..." it's not really a question we can answer simply. So I love Joyce's example of talking to infants about diapers and poo. They don't know or care, but a nice tone of voice and conversation is good, and eventually they start to understand, but it's the supportive relationship that's the most useful.

Sandra

emmamarieforde@...


---My three-year-old often tells my husband and my mother to "go away". It's like an angry, emotional reaction when one of those two people enters the room he is in, or when they try to engage with him. He doesn't say it to me, nor does he say it to other adults. After me, his dad and grandmother are the two adults he is closest to, but his relationships with both of them are a bit rocky.---

---But I'd also like to be more proactive right now, and I'm a bit stuck for practical ideas on how to facilitate nicer interactions between all of us. I would really appreciate some input. Thanks very much in advance.---

I have a daughter who has recently turned four years old and sometimes she does tell her dad to go away when he comes into the room in the way you describe above. This is usually after he has returned from being at work for a number of hours or even if he has been working in his office for a period of time.  

My daughter and her dad do generally have a warm and close connection but at the moment he enters the room after they have been apart for some period of time it does feel that his return is perceived as a threat or an intrusion. I think sometimes this might be because she feels that his return might interrupt what we are doing together and she fears that my attention will be taken away from her and focused on her dad. 

Importantly I think this particular reaction is also associated with feeling disconnected from her dad after a period of separation. I believe she does not fully understand why her dad has to go away to work and she may have some painful feelings about this. It helps for us to be mindful of her feelings around separations and returns and of finding ways to help to re-establish their connection. 

I believe it also helps to be sensitive to timings and if you can anticipate someone's arrival or return you can help prepare a child for this. If I can anticipate her dad's arrival we can make sure we have come to a good ending if we are playing a game or doing something together and we can also plan something that they might both enjoy doing together on his arrival. It could be sharing a story with him about something that she has enjoyed doing in the day, showing him something she has made or talking to him about a toy she has been playing with.

It can also help if she wants to talk to him on the phone while he is on his way home: anything that is meaningful to her, that she would like to share and that helps them to connect and enables her to feel more included and thought about in her dad's return. When I talk to her about this she does get excited and it changes the dynamic so that she is anticipating his return in a joyful way rather than it being experienced as a surprise or an intrusion.

It can also help if my husband brings home a present or something she might be interested in as a way to show that he has been thinking about her and it also introduces a sweet and thoughtful invitation to engage and to re-connect.

When our daughter is more relaxed and anticipating his arrival she is more open and receptive to engaging in a playful interaction with him. We play a game called 'Tug Of Baby' where both me and her dad hold onto her and we both pull saying 'I want her!', 'No, I want her!'. She really enjoys this and it always ends in giggles with a chorus of 'again, again, again!' (our older daughter sometimes joins in as well). It could be any meaningful interaction that your child might enjoy engaging in with his dad or your mum that might help them to connect.

My older daughter now 8 years also went through this kind of reaction at the same age. I think when she was younger she also found it hard to understand why her dad had to work and now she is older she is more able to take see things from different perspectives. I think she also understands that it is not a personal rejection. They also spend time playing together and sharing interests but I think the difference is that now it is easier for her to feel that her dad loves her even when they are separated. 

It might be the case that your son has different issues in the relationships with his dad and his grandmother which lead him to have some feelings of wanting to push them away. However, I do think if you are able to help them work on deepening their connection in playful ways and by engaging with your son in ways that are meaningful to him that this can help build their relationships in a positive way. It sounds like your son trusts you and you would therefore be in a good position to help to facilitate this. 

Lawrence Cohen describes exactly this type of scenario in his book 'Playful Parenting' (p.56) when he talks about how he looked after his young daughter Emma while his wife went to work. On his wife's return his daughter would continue playing and would ignore her mother or if her mother came close and tried to engage with Emma she would tell her to go away.

They came to realise that Emma had been feeling disconnected from her mum while she had been away at work and what they both needed was some help re-connecting. They found that it did take some patience and some time for the re-connection to be established and they developed a number of playful ways to enable this to happen. It helped that Emma's parents were able to be sensitive and understand that she was rejecting her mum because of her own feelings of rejection and sadness about being separated.