Sarah Thompson

I posted to the closed list by accident. Take two:

I posted the following on the Always Unschooled list, and I got into an off-list conversation that I didn't realize was off-list, and I want to bring it back ON list and get more feedback.

I wrote:

This grew in my mind out of the post about returning with teens.

My kids are really into gaming youtubes, and some of the skit youtubes and related stuff. When my son wanted to make youtubes, we downloaded and learned a recording program, I made some videos, I helped him with his page. He seems sort of over it, although he still talks about it.

Often when I sit with them, they tell me to go away. They don't want to come do anything else with me, but they don't seem to want me in that world with them. I'm not sure how to engage with their interests. I feel a little unparent-y sometimes. Every opening I get to support and communicate and share, I use (if they ask me something, or tell me something, or need something), but I am having trouble finding ways to connect meaningfully.

I see other unschooling parents saying, "we're doing this and that together pursuing my child's interests," and I feel a little left out in the cold.

Response:
*
Hello,
I am a unschooling mom to 13yo.  I hear you so clearly Sara.
 
This "screen" world is so strange to me....I cannot relate to this in any way. I stick with REAL LIFE.
 
I just read this off this FB page, and I feel it describes what's going on:
“The more honest and authentic we become, the harder it is for people to deal with.”  Matt Kahn via Julianna Dean, fromThe True divine nature community, FB grp
My response:

I'm pretty comfortable with the virtual terrain, actually. I'm just having a hard time finding all the connecion points without forcing myself on them in an inauthentic way.

This is the real world. It is their world.

Reply:

 yes, it is their world, but one I will never participate.
I can only hope that reality will overtake at some point.
 
All the best to your family.

My response:

How can you connect with your kids if you won't enter their world and if you waiting for them to abandon it for yours?

Reply:

it's like asking someone who does not like to read to join you reading....it will not work.
 
I connect when he is out in garden or at the park or having chat.

So, I hope this formatting is not too confusing.

I'm bringing this here because it is not helpful to me in growing as an unschooler. It seems very distancing, whereas I want to move closer to connection, not farther from it.

I thought there might be some good thoughts on this list.

Sarah

Megan Valnes

I don't always *get* the virtual worlds my kids are into, but what I do know is that my kids are into them, interested in the world wide web and all it has to offer, and I seek to join in with them in pursuing their interests--even if those interests are not my own. Sometimes what they're interested becomes my own interest once I've been introduced and realize I like it too.

-=-Every opening I get to support and communicate and share, I use (if they ask me something, or tell me something, or need something), but I am having trouble finding ways to connect meaningfully.-=-

Sounds like you are connecting meaningfully. If you are there when they need you sharing, listening, and caring, that is a connection, no? My kids are still pretty young, the oldest is nearly 11, so they still love to have me watch everything they do, but this could change when they get into their adolescent years, when kids typically begin asserting the need for more independence, but still need you when they need you! 

Instead of watching them on the computer maybe offer to watch a movie with them. Or go to the movies. Go out and get lunch together or have a picnic in the back yard. Go to the game store and by a new game with them. Sometimes I start things on my own, like puzzles, and the kids will join in with me, coming and going. Lots of times I offer to play card games because my kids love cards. Perhaps think of an activity you know they'll like and try to plan a day to do it...the zoo, the mall, coffee, paint balling, etc. If they don't want you sitting with them at the computer, look for somewhere else to sit with them...or run with them :).

-=-“The more honest and authentic we become, the harder it is for people to deal with.”  Matt Kahn via Julianna Dean, fromThe True divine nature community, FB grp-=-

This quote really grates on my nerves. How does this woman have any idea that humans were not always "honest and authentic?" or that we are becoming more so in recent times? Is she bashing technology whilst posting on Facebook? What is she getting at with this quote and how is it relevant? This sounds like the preachy self-righteous type jargon that those against technology throw around. On Facebook. 

Megan


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Sent from Gmail Mobile

Sarah Thompson

I want to add that I often hear a variation "it's okay, I'm not really into it either, we connect in other ways." The thing is, I *want* to be a part of my kids' worlds.

When I was a kid and wanted to lie on my bed and listen to pop music all day, some lf which was admittedly terrible and certainly all was repeated ad nauseum, my parents could have come in a sat and listened, could have taken me to concerts, could have tried to connect. They didn't. They tolerated it, until they thought I should do something else with my time, and then they nagged or were dismissive. They suggested alternatives, and if I did something *thy* liked, it was all good. They connected with me when *they* wanted to, in other words.

The relationship I had, and have, with my parents, is not the one I want with my children. I see that the onus is on me, as the parent, to find ways to shift myself to where my kids are. If that means learning to game, finding the joy in the youtubes, the shows, etc., then that's where I want to go. My purpose is posting here is to get advice and encouragement on moving *towards* them, not *around* their interests.

Sarah

Alex Polikowsky

If you wished your parents were more interested in what you liked and you want to be that parent then do it.

What kind of encouragement are you looking for ? You know what you want to do! Do you need specific ideas if how to connect over their passions?

If so maybe tell us more about what they like and maybe people will have ideas to share of how they do with their kids and you can try them.

Kids are different and it all depends on what they like, their personality  and so on.

I would start with being really interested in what they love and learn about it. You do not necessarily need to learn with them or do it with them but have enough knowledge as to have a conversation and know things to add to their passion or interest.
Be open, listen to them, really listen and really be accepting and embrace it. That is how I do it. I do it even with my husband!

Alex Polikowsky

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 22, 2015, at 6:05 AM, "Sarah Thompson thompsonisland@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:

 

I want to add that I often hear a variation "it's okay, I'm not really into it either, we connect in other ways." The thing is, I *want* to be a part of my kids' worlds.

When I was a kid and wanted to lie on my bed and listen to pop music all day, some lf which was admittedly terrible and certainly all was repeated ad nauseum, my parents could have come in a sat and listened, could have taken me to concerts, could have tried to connect. They didn't. They tolerated it, until they thought I should do something else with my time, and then they nagged or were dismissive. They suggested alternatives, and if I did something *thy* liked, it was all good. They connected with me when *they* wanted to, in other words.

The relationship I had, and have, with my parents, is not the one I want with my children. I see that the onus is on me, as the parent, to find ways to shift myself to where my kids are. If that means learning to game, finding the joy in the youtubes, the shows, etc., then that's where I want to go. My purpose is posting here is to get advice and encouragement on moving *towards* them, not *around* their interests.

Sarah

Sarah Thompson

My specific concern is that when they are watching youtubes, and they tell me to go away, it seems respectful to do so. But I want to make sure I don't abandon them. It seems like they need me to continue to check in regularly, and that the actual *time* spent will ebb and flow but as long as I am sincerely interested and supportive, I am engaging, even if we aren't actually playing together.

Sarah

Sarah Thompson

I think what it is for me is that, before I really knew what unschooling was, I had an impression of unparenting. Now I know that unparenting is one way to fail at unschooling. I'm edgy sometimes to make sure I'm *not* unparenting, when it feels like the kids aren't needing a lot of interaction from me.

Sarah

semajrak@...

<<My purpose is posting here is to get advice and encouragement on moving *towards* them, not *around* their interests.>>

I can give you examples from our days that might give you some ideas of things you could try.  Things will be different in your home, however.  You will need to find what works best for yourself and your family.

Most days Ethan plays one game or another.  Some games I play with him, some I don't.  Some games he wants me to play with him, some he doesn't.  We have Ethan's computer right now in the middle of our living space.  I have mine at another desk close by, in the same room.  Whether I'm playing on a game with him or not, I'm usually close by.  I've been playing video games since my early twenties, so it's something I enjoy, and a fun and easy place for us to connect.  He likes being where Doug and I are too, so having the computer out in the main space works out well for us all.

Ethan watches a variety of Youtube channels on his computer.  I've watched many with him, but most of the time these days he likes to watch a variety of shows by himself.  I'm still there, and can see what he's enjoying.  Sometimes he'll call me over to show me the funny parts or the highlights, but he seems to enjoy relaxing and watching on his own and usually wears his headphones.  

We also have a television in the room with the computers.  We watch a wide variety of shows together.  This morning we were watching the National Geographic channel.  Ethan likes the state trooper shows.  He joked that he was going to go and play a game called "The Escapist," which is about escaping prison, while the state trooper show played in the background.  He said he thought that was humourous.  I haven't played that particular game, but I know a little about it from watching him play and listening to him talk about it.  I don't have a desire to play it, although I would try it out if he asked me to, just like I would give a look to a show a friend thought I might like, or taste a brand of crackers someone I cared about recommended.    

Our living space is designed around coming together in ways that we all find interesting and stimulating.  Because we have a small house, we don't do much formal entertaining right now.  The way we choose to live isn't conducive to it.  We don't have a formal dining area and we don't have a traditional living room.  But, in my opinion, this works well for our lives today, and there will be lots of time (hopefully) to have people over in a more traditional way later on if that is what we want.  We do invite people over to game with us and generally play in our space.  We share food here too.  It's just not a traditional home like the one I grew up in.  It works well for us, and it changes as we change and our interests change.     

<<When I was a kid and wanted to lie on my bed and listen to pop music all day, some lf which was admittedly terrible and certainly all was repeated ad nauseum, my parents could have come in a sat and listened, could have taken me to concerts, could have tried to connect. They didn't. They tolerated it, until they thought I should do something else with my time, and then they nagged or were dismissive. They suggested alternatives, and if I did something *thy* liked, it was all good. They connected with me when *they* wanted to, in other words.>>

One of the best things I did for myself and my relationship with Ethan was to stop looking at what I didn't have as a child and young person, and make an effort to focus my attention on what I wanted as a mom, and what Ethan needed from me at every stage of his development along the way.  Your sons are different from who you were as a teen.  They have had different experiences and a different upbringing.  They may not want you to listen to their music with them.  They may not want to go to concerts with you.  They may not want you to sit with them while they watch Youtube videos.  They may want entirely different things from you.  You will only know what they truly want and need from you when you look directly at and learn from them, and away from what you wish you had yourself as a young person.

Karen James

Sandra Dodd

-=-My specific concern is that when they are watching youtubes, and they tell me to go away, it seems respectful to do so. But I want to make sure I don't abandon them. -=-

You could deliver food and drinks. If they're sitting in uncomfortable chairs, consider cushions, or an office chair replacement, maybe.

-=-and they tell me to go away, it seems respectful to do so-=-

If they're SAYing "go away," is "respectful" the next consideration? Maybe the disrespect came before they needed to ask someone to "go away," and I hope they didn't word it that way. If the relationship is bad enough that they will say "go away" to an adult and then that adult thinks it's respectful to follow that order, the problems are different than described. So I hope it's not the case.

Sometimes when you're not at home, and it's just you and one kid, maybe these ideas would help:
http://sandradodd.com/truck

Sandra

Sarah Thompson

My 5yo will definitely say "go away!" He is intense and he needs to go process sometimes-if I'm in his space and he wants me out he isn't usually gentle. But I see that often he *does* want me near, doing something else but near, just because.

Sarah

Ali Zeljo

Sarah,

Have you expressed negative judgment about gaming videos, swearing, violence in the past?  Are your kids worried about experiencing negative commentary?

My youngest son (4) has a very sensitive sense of smell and he really gets upset when someone breathes near him while watching a video on his iPad.  He says the breath smell makes him sick.  I'm trying to help him use kinder words because usually he screams at his brothers, "Ugh! Your breath!  Get away!"  I'm grateful for knowing it's a smell issue.  Maybe your son has a good reason and just needs some help expressing it more politely?

Ali

On Apr 22, 2015, at 1:24 PM, "Sarah Thompson thompsonisland@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:

 

My specific concern is that when they are watching youtubes, and they tell me to go away, it seems respectful to do so. But I want to make sure I don't abandon them. It seems like they need me to continue to check in regularly, and that the actual *time* spent will ebb and flow but as long as I am sincerely interested and supportive, I am engaging, even if we aren't actually playing together.

Sarah

semajrak@...

<<My specific concern is that when they are watching youtubes, and they tell me to go away, it seems respectful to do so.>>

When I was studying art, one of the areas I majored in was painting.  At first, I really didn't enjoy painting in the big studio with all of the other students, especially if I was working on something intently and didn't want to be interrupted or scrutinized.  One thing I did find, however, was that people working in the studio together learned to intuit when a person didn't want to be interrupted.  They would wait for a good break to come over to talk.  I really appreciated that, and learned to do the same for others.  We could be in the room together respectfully.  In places where that didn't work, I would bring my own work home, and return later with the finished piece for critique.  That meant I missed out on seeing the processes of my peers, and they missed out on seeing my process and the progress of my work too.  That's valuable information, in and out of an art studio.    

My husband spends a fair amount of time thinking about problems.  He uses equations to solve them.  When he's in the middle of a problem, he doesn't want to be interrupted.  Sometimes he works at the kitchen counter under the halogen spotlight.  He likes that spot because of the warm wood countertop and the focused light.  It feels good to him.  But he wouldn't choose to work right in the middle of our living space if we didn't respect his need to be left alone.  I don't mean, of course, that we need to leave the house, or even the kitchen.  He trusts us to let him think his thoughts and do what he wants to do without needing to feel like he must be attentive to us at the same time.   

Because we spend a lot of time together, I can see when Ethan wants to be left alone as well.  Most of the time he wants me or Doug near, but that doesn't mean, like myself and like Doug, he wants us to be right in his business.  He'll invite us, if he does.  Or I'll see that it's a good time to go over and see what he's up to and if he needs anything.  There have been times when I've not been very considerate and interrupted him right in the middle of something he was working on.  He'll let me know he doesn't appreciate that.  I usually apologize, because I understand how irritating that is.  I wait for a better time, or ask him to find a good time to stop so that I can do whatever it was I was hoping to do or say whatever it was I was hoping to say.

<<But I want to make sure I don't abandon them.>>

I think some parents want constant confirmation from their kids that they are doing a good job.  This may not be you, but I see it often enough.  It's too much of a burden on the kids.  That is not their burden to carry or even think about.  You need to know when your doing a good job.  If you don't know, you need to pay closer attention to yourself and your children.  That confidence in yourself and this way of living is an important part of helping your kids develop confidence in what they choose to do and learn, and, inevitably, in who they are.  

Surely you could tell if you were abandoning them?  You don't need to go up to them at regular intervals to tell them you're there.  You just need to be there.  Be available.  Be considerate.  Think of ways that you can help them do what they want to do.  Learn what they're doing and help them build from there.  

Kelly Lovejoy said it well, I think..."Unschooling requires a “paradigm shift” to make it work. And it works best when you (the parent) are an active learner. And curious and thoughtful and enthusiastic and interested and interesting."  Be all of those things and you will find you no longer question if you are doing enough.  The evidence left by what you *are* doing will speak for itself.

Karen James

Sarah Thompson

This:

"One of the best things I did for myself and my relationship with Ethan was to stop looking at what I didn't have as a child and young person, and make an effort to focus my attention on what I wanted as a mom...  Your sons are different from who you were as a teen."

and this:

"some parents want constant confirmation from their kids that they are doing a good job...  You need to know when your doing a good job.  If you don't know, you need to pay closer attention to yourself and your children"

Seem really important. I'm bringing in some baggage about being "not-that" instead of focusing on being "this."

Sarah

Sarah Thompson

I don't think that's it. He definitely gets mad at me, though. If he's frustrated with his brother or with anything else he pushes everyone away. Since I'm Mom I get a lot of that. I'll come to check on him when he's angry about something and he tells me to go away. So I do. I just want him to know I'm there.

Sarah

Sandra Dodd

-=-Kelly Lovejoy said it well, I think..."Unschooling requires a “paradigm shift” to make it work. And it works best when you (the parent) are an active learner. And curious and thoughtful and enthusiastic and interested and interesting." Be all of those things and you will find you no longer question if you are doing enough. The evidence left by what you *are* doing will speak for itself.-=-

Where's the end of the Kelly quote?

I liked your whole post, Karen, and I might be able to find the quote myself, but because it's out in public, I wanted others to know, too, where Kelly's ended and your words started again.

Thanks,

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-
It's from here, Sandra:

http://sandradodd.com/kellylovejoy/whatisunschooling-=-

I didn't see the end of the quotes in your first-pass paragraph. They were there. The end of the paragraph was your words, not Kelly's, and my eyes are getting old. :-)

I wrote:
________

-=-Kelly Lovejoy said it well, I think..."Unschooling requires a “paradigm shift” to make it work. And it works best when you (the parent) are an active learner. And curious and thoughtful and enthusiastic and interested and interesting." Be all of those things and you will find you no longer question if you are doing enough. The evidence left by what you *are* doing will speak for itself.-=-

Where's the end of the Kelly quote?
_________________

Kelly's part:

Unschooling requires a “paradigm shift” to make it work. And it works best when you (the parent) are an active learner. And curious and thoughtful and enthusiastic and interested and interesting.

Karen's part:

Be all of those things and you will find you no longer question if you are doing enough. The evidence left by what you *are* doing will speak for itself.

All of it's very good. (Except my missing the end quotes before; sorry.)

Sandra

semajrak@...

<<I didn't see the end of the quotes in your first-pass paragraph. They were there. The end of the paragraph was your words, not Kelly's, and my eyes are getting old. :-) >>

Nah.  Your eyes are still young.  ;-)  I should have spaced them better and added the link.  I'm still learning how to write well.

On a side note that I do believe meanders back to (or close to) the concept of confidence, I've learned more about writing here on this list than I did in my years studying English literature in university.  There, I would get my papers back, sometimes marked up in various places, and I didn't feel invested enough to find out what the marks were for or how I might improve.  Here, I want to learn to be clear, because if I can write clearly, I can think more clearly.  If I can think clearly, I can be a better partner to my son and my husband and my friends, and maybe help a couple people here too.  Win win win win!  ;-) 

Working to understand unschooling really well has given me confidence in learning, and a better understanding that learning happens best when we are truly invested in what we're doing and thinking about.  That has given me a new-found confidence in myself, which is really beautiful.  I'm very grateful for it all, Sandra.  So thank you for this opportunity.  :-)

Karen