justinmichellec@...

My boys have never been to school and we have unschooled for about 5 years.  My 17 old tried public school this year for about 3 months and he decided he didn't fit in - he didn't like all the homework and crazy rules.  When he decided to quit, he played video games non-stop - only coming out for food and bathroom breaks.  I usually bring him food, water and hugs.  Now I am concerned because he doesn't connect with friends (unless on-line) and doesn't  go anywhere.  I think he is depressed....I try to talk to him about getting out and getting a job, his driver's license or going to a movie, the gym etc. I have suggested going to the doctor and/or a counselor but  He tells me it is too late for him.  I ask him what that means and he tells me he can't be helped.  


I feel like a failure and I am worried. 

Joyce Fetteroll

> On Feb 12, 2015, at 2:02 AM, justinmichellec@... wrote:
>
> I try to talk to him about getting out and getting a job ....

I don't want to minimize what you're saying. It does sound like depression. But it's also true that teens go through periods of not having things figured out. It's confusing being on the edge of adult choices but not feeling ready.

So don't dismiss it. But it sounds like you're adding pressure. All of what you wrote is about what he's doing wrong and what he could do to fix it. How often do you drop in to chat? To ask him what he's discovered, what his favorite recent happenings are? How often do you listen just to find out more about him without using what he says as a way to assess whether he's thinking "right"? You say he played video games non stop. What do you know about the games? Have you asked him to show you his favorites? Asked why he likes them over other games? Perhaps ask him if there are games he thinks you might like? Are there games you could play together?

Joyce

semajrak@...

<<When he decided to quit, he played video games non-stop - only coming out for food and bathroom breaks.>>

When my husband finished his PhD, he was so burned out he became a little bit depressed.  I don't think that's all too uncommon.  I worked out of the home at the time.  We weren't yet married, but we lived together.  Doug played games all day long while I was at work.  When I came home, I made or brought dinner for us both, thinking about what might be a food he would really enjoy, and then I played games with him for the remainder of the evening.  We played in the same room on different computers.  We played role playing games together.  Sometimes after a good length of playing I would suggest we go for a little walk around the block.  Often, as we walked, we would talk about our game.  It was an awesome way to connect without too much pressure to talk about anything that might trigger difficult feelings.     

I think having good company can be helpful when a person is feeling depressed.  That has been my own experience anyway, although it might be true that some people prefer to be left alone.  The thing I needed to be very aware of was that Doug was already feeling a heavy load with the things he was coping with emotionally.  I tried not to add to that.  In fact, I tried to lessen the weight of his issues by being calm myself, bringing him things I knew he liked, and keeping him company in ways I knew he valued.  Doug is not a big talker, so I didn't talk a lot.  I listened when he needed me, but I didn't pressure him to talk about anything he didn't want to talk about.  When he felt like it, he opened up.  It helped that I was already there for him when I could be.  

Can you play some of the games with your son?  Would he welcome you sitting close to him while he plays, maybe on another computer so he feels your presence and support?  Sometimes I play my own game while my son, Ethan, plays his nearby.  Right now I'm really enjoying Never Alone:  http://neveralonegame.com/

 

There's a fun monthly subscription of a box of game related items.  Every month contains different items, and every month is a surprise.  Perhaps that would give him something to look forward to and some new ideas to pursue.  A place to start a conversation with you, or you with him.  You can find that here:  https://www.lootcrate.com/  


<<he doesn't connect with friends (unless on-line)>>


Online friends are friends.  If he's connecting with online friends, he's connecting with friends.  I'm not sure why it is, but many people think of friends as only being real if they have in-person relations.  Some of the nicest people I've met, I've met online.  Some of them I've yet to meet in person.  But, without a doubt, my life is better for knowing them.  

Karen James


 

Sandra Dodd

-=-My boys have never been to school and we have unschooled for about 5 years. -=-

So you were doing school at home before he was 12 or so?

How old are the others, and how's it going for them?

Pressure (or suggestions) to do more and be different are telling him he's not okay, so it's probably not helpful to categorize the ways you wish he would do and be different. Perhaps for you, more than him, consider speaking with one of these folks who already understand unschooling—you won't need to pay money to teach someone else about unschooling before being able to lay out your concerns.

http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy

Sandra

justinmichellec@...

<So you were doing school at home before he was 12 or so?>


Yes, we did school at home off and on since he was 5 years old.   We controlled the video games, TV and food.  We wouldn't allow him to play violent games and we controlled how often he played.  I know he resents us because his brothers did not have the same experience.  My younger 2 are 15 years old and 11 years old.  My oldest Jordan says I am a horrible parent for letting his youngest brother Alex play COD games.  I tell him I am sorry for what he experienced and I wish I could change the past. 


<How old are the others, and how's it going for them?>
My other two boys are doing well - they strong in who are and enjoy the unschooling life. 


<Pressure (or suggestions) to do more and be different are telling him he's not okay, so it's probably not helpful to categorize the ways you wish he would do and be different >


You are correct about me wanting things to be different .....I am trying to help him but I end up making things worse.  I know he is scared about growing up - he has said he wishes he was younger.  I don't want to push him to grow up sooner than he is ready, but I because I am so fearful I am pushing him.....


<already understand unschooling—you won't need to pay money to teach someone else about unschooling before being able to lay out your concerns.>


Thanks for the suggestions ......I have been concerned about what I would say to a therapist about our values.

I am the one that needs to talk to someone about all of my fears. 



Sandra Dodd

-=-My oldest Jordan says I am a horrible parent for letting his youngest brother Alex play COD games. I tell him I am sorry for what he experienced and I wish I could change the past. -=-

So when he says it's too late for him, maybe he means it's too late for him to grow up peacefully and happily.
I thought your implication in the early post was that it was too late for him to have friends or ever get out of the house.

Because people can't go back and fix things, it's good to help parents be sweeter and kinder from the beginning.

-=-My oldest Jordan says I am a horrible parent for letting his youngest brother Alex play COD games.-=-

"Call of Duty," I'm guessing; write things out, please, in posts here so people don't need to guess or google.
It's understandable if your oldest was deprived and limited and you told him it was for his own good, and he tried (as kids do) to see your actions as loving and supportive and sensible, that he would be frustrated that now he needs to redefine his own life, so soon, as wither you were wrong and didn't know what you were doing then, or that he suffered for good reasons, but now you've thrown it all away.

That's rough, and some people's personalities are more easy-going and forgiving than others'. He will probably go through many waves of review, as he grows older, maybe mates, possibly has children. He will look back, and around, and see you, and his childhood, from many different angles. That can't be helped, either.

Everyone has regrets and it's good to minimize them while still finding ways to be upbeat and cheery as much as you can be.

Sandra

Ali Zeljo

 My 17 old tried public school this year for about 3 months and he decided he didn't fit in - he didn't like all the homework and crazy rules.  


I'm curious about this process.  Why did he decide to try school?  What was he hoping to get out of it?  Can you brainstorm ways to meet those needs creatively?  Is it more friends?  Is it a high school diploma?

Also, there is a strong message in public schools and mainstream society that high school drop outs can't get good jobs.  My son (15) often comes out of time with friends feeling down.  He says other boys tell him he won't amount to anything because he isn't in school.   

There is also a pervasive message about laziness. Unschooled teens often have trouble when they try high school because it requires a ton of work on subjects they aren't necessarily interested in, or on projects that don't feel meaningful. Unschoolers are used to choosing what they do with their own time.  But all the other kids there are programmed to see it differently.  How else would they be able to make it through all those years.  Teachers and administrators sometimes label kids who don't complete assignments or readings as lazy.  I wonder if your son left school feeling and hearing lots of those messages pretty intensely.  

I worry about my own teenage son, as one of a very few unschooled teens in our geographic area.  I think support is very important-- support from parents with lots of confidence in the teen and lots of confidence in unschooling.  This way when he's feeling down or especially influenced by the negative messages from people around him, he knows he can come home and find his strength and self-confidence again.  At times, I have found myself looking at my son with a judgmental perspective that doesn't lead to anything successful for him or for our relationship.  

Ali






semajrak@...

<<I tell him I am sorry for what he experienced and I wish I could change the past.>>

Do what you can to influence the present.  Show him you value what he's doing now.  He may have a lot of self doubt about the value of his pursuits if they were once looked upon negatively.  Really dive in and get involved.  Being sorry is fine.  Taking steps to make amends is better.

Karen James

Rinelle

> I think he is depressed....I try to talk to him about getting out and
> getting a job, his driver's license or going to a movie,
>the gym etc. I have suggested going to the doctor and/or a counselor but
>He tells me it is too late for him. I ask him
> what that means and he tells me he can't be helped.



When he says that it is ‘too late’ for him, I’m wondering what he means? Can
you explore that concept a little more? Does he mean it’s too late to learn?
Or too late to have fun? Is it possible he sees his brothers having fun and
being allowed to play games, and feels that at 17 he should be doing
something more adult or work like? If so, I suspect that talk of jobs, gyms,
drivers licence etc, are probably adding to the pressure.

If my child was saying it was too late for them, I’d tell them it was never
too late. I’d talk to them about their grandmother going back to university
to get her degree in her forties. I’d talk about people changing careers in
their 50s and later. It's never too late to either choose a career, or to
have fun! I'd tell him to take all the time he needs to make those
decisions, and if right now he just feels like playing, to do that too. I'd
explain that sometimes playing is just as necessary as 'doing things'.

Tamara

justinmichellec@...

When he says it is too late - it is too late to learn anything.  I have talked to him about how learning is a life long thing and it is never too late.  He tried school and because it wasn't easy he assumes it can't learn.  He wants to be like the 'other' kids and feels like it's too late for him.  I like the idea of playing just as necessary at doing.  He feels pressure to do something because his friends are working, going to college etc.  He doesn't have any unschool friends.  The reason why he went to school was to make friends.


Thank you for your insights.

Michelle



justinmichellec@...

I think you are correct about the school system All 3 of my boys feel less than when they are around 'school kids'  I think most of our problem is that I am not confident in unschooling......

justinmichellec@...

<< But it's also true that teens go through periods of not having things figured out. It's confusing being on the edge of adult choices but not feeling ready.>>


He definitely feels like he should have things figured out and doesn't.  I don't want to push him to grow up before he is ready....He has always matured later than his friends who are in the school system.


<< How often do you listen just to find out more about him without using what he says as a way to assess whether he's thinking "right"? >>


thank you for this insight..... I spent some time this weekend just hanging out in his room and watching/listening.   It was really cool and I am going to do it more often..  He asked me why I was in there bugging him and I told him if I couldn't get him to come out of his room, then I would join him.  He just laughed. 


 

Ali Zeljo

Hi Michelle,

He tried school and because it wasn't easy he assumes it can't learn. 


What was hard for him about school?  Perhaps he needs direct assistance figuring out how to pass a class.  It's a lot like a game- you have to learn how to win!  If there's a list of facts to learn for a test, there are study skills for different types of learners that help make that easier.  I was thinking about this for my son recently.  He has never taken a class where you are tested on facts.  He's about to take a drivers ed class online, and I'm planning to be very active in assisting him with study skills.  

I think you are correct about the school system All 3 of my boys feel less than when they are around 'school kids'  I think most of our problem is that I am not confident in unschooling......

One thing that helps me is to brainstorm about each of my kids.  I type an email to myself where I just list everything and anything each child seems interested in.  Then I expand it to every idea I have that could be a fun way to explore that topic.  My teenager loves food and so maybe I will encourage dad to take him out to a different restaurant once a week.  That will be exciting to him and give them time to relax together without brothers.  I'll remember to ask him if there's anything he'd like to have for dinner or breakfast this week when I make meal plans.  I might search on Netflix for films about good food.   I already know he does not enjoy cooking the food, so I won't go there...  Etc.  I have four sons and sometimes days go by in a whir and I don't take time to really think about each child.  It's great fun and gives me confidence!

You can't make him do anything and it's certainly not healthy to pressure him to hurry up and find a passion and follow it successfully!  But YOU can bring things he enjoys into his life with no strings attached.  You can show interest in what he's doing.  You can ask if there's anything he needs to be able to do more of that.  My sons always surprise me with responses to that question.  There is often something they wish for, a program or a peripheral to enhance their experience and I wouldn't have known if I didn't ask!  

Ali




K Pennell

I'd agree with this. My older son went to public school for some classes (band, art), and his girlfriend, sister, and all his friends were in school. The message is that you need to know THESE things to be successful, you need to study THIS subject. Learning happens because of teachers. It's a strong message, and one the public school (and the kids there) spout very confidently and don't often question.

If, on top of that, your son went in, having spent recent years unschooling, there may be LOTS of stuff he doesn't know that he's "SUPPOSED TO", according to them. He may have felt afraid that he is hopelessly behind where he should be because he's "wasted" his time playing games. 

For now, maybe just try to spend time with him, engage with him, watch him play video games, enjoy it with him. I used to bring a snack up for my son and then sit with him and watch him play for a bit. I also found he was more interested at chatting at about 1 in the morning, while he was playing or while he was fixing himself a bedtime snack. He wouldn't "sit down" for a discussion, but would make comments and chat a bit, without the pressure of "let's talk" or needing to make eye contact or anything.




From: "justinmichellec@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 1:54 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Help with my 17 year old son



I think you are correct about the school system All 3 of my boys feel less than when they are around 'school kids'  I think most of our problem is that I am not confident in unschooling......



Sandra Dodd

-=- I like the idea of playing just as necessary at doing. -=-

Please clarify that. I honestly don't know what you mean.

-=- He doesn't have any unschool friends. The reason why he went to school was to make friends.-=-

I thought he had online friends. (Perhaps I'm mixing him up with another story from the past few days; if so, sorry.)

Instead of trying to send him out to do something on his own, try to find something (or more than one thing) that you and he, or that you and the family, can do where there are other people—a club, activity, choir, martial arts, volunteer work (which will look good on a resume when he wants to go to school or get a job)—but do NOT try to pressure him out to do something like that on his own. Do things together as a family.

It might BE too late if your unschooling wasn't involving ways for him to meet and be around other people (not necessarily unschoolers). But it won't be too late for your younger children. If the oldest is indicating to you that it's not working well, change things. Be more open instead of more critical of him. Be more relaxed instead of more tense. Concerts, plays, museums—something up and out, involving more than one family member, to create shared experiences and to spark new ideas and thoughts.

If the two of you can go somewhere alone, the talking in the car might be the best part.

http://sandradodd.com/truck

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-I also found he was more interested at chatting at about 1 in the morning, while he was playing or while he was fixing himself a bedtime snack. He wouldn't "sit down" for a discussion, but would make comments and chat a bit, without the pressure of "let's talk" or needing to make eye contact or anything. -=-

That's what this is about:
http://sandradodd.com/truck

A face-to-face conversation, for a male, can seem a challenge, more than anything else. It can seem aggressive, a stare-down, and the only way to get out of it is to be dishonest and "lose." So the more mom's "talk to boys," the more damage and distance they might cause. But a conversation initiated by him, in a side-by-side situation, is very different.

Sandra Dodd

-=-A face-to-face conversation, for a male, can seem a challenge, more than anything else. It can seem aggressive, a stare-down, and the only way to get out of it is to be dishonest and "lose."-=-

I mean that's the only way to get out of it if the aggressor is his mother.

There are men in prison who got out of pressured face-to-face encounters in other ways.

Sandra

justinmichellec@...

<< Perhaps he needs direct assistance figuring out how to pass a class.  It's a lot like a game- you have to learn how to win!  If there's a list of facts to learn for a test, there are study skills for different types of learners that help make that easier. >>

 

I spent a lot of time with him showing him how to study and figure out what he needed to know - He is an auditory learner - - I read the text to him and we looked up things etc.  The first test he did great. Since he procrastinates - I spent lot of all nighters - which was great for both of us.  But eventually, he said he should be able to study on his own and then he didn't want to study at all - he still got B's. 





justinmichellec@...

<I thought he had online friends. (Perhaps I'm mixing him up with another story from the past few days; if so, sorry.)>


yes he has friends online but he wants friends to hang out with. 





justinmichellec@...

<< try to find something (or more than one thing) that you and he, or that you and the family, can do where there are other people—a club, activity, choir, martial arts, volunteer work (which will look good on a resume when he wants to go to school or get a job)—but do NOT try to pressure him out to do something like that on his own. Do things together as a family.>>


Believe me I would love to do something as a family ......All of the activities I suggested for him were things I would do with him or his Dad, or by himself he that is what he wanted.  He doesn't want to do anything with his family because he can't stand to be around his 11 year old brother.  Also, he has been involved in a lot of activities over the years (many years of soccer and basketball, Boy scouts for 10 years, 6  Shakespeare plays,  1 musical, piano, guitar, working out at the gym, homeschool teen group)  but doesn't want to do anything now.  The only reason I suggested doing something was I felt like he might want to get out of his room for a few hours.  He knows I would do anything for him and I have always been there for him. 


We do talk a lot when we go places - I am always willing to take him because even if he doesn't feel like talking - we have the space to just be together. 





Sandra Dodd

He has friends online and can get B's without studying. Can't you turn that to positives? Invite an online friend to visit. Go to the town where one of them lives.

Are you near a community college where he could take fluff classes? Something non-academic so he could be around other people? Art, theatre, music, sports? Photography?

Sandra Dodd

-=- The only reason I suggested doing something was I felt like he might want to get out of his room for a few hours.-=-

If it's about you, drop it.

Your rejection and defensiveness aren't making it easy to offer help, and it's starting to look less like he needs help.

-=-Also, he has been involved in a lot of activities over the years (many years of soccer and basketball, Boy scouts for 10 years, 6 Shakespeare plays, 1 musical, piano, guitar, working out at the gym, homeschool teen group) but doesn't want to do anything now. -=-

Then leave him alone and find ways to be happier. Spend time with your 11 year old son.

Sandra

semajrak@...

<<When he says it is too late - it is too late to learn anything.  I have talked to him about how learning is a life long thing and it is never too late.>>

I know that feeling of hopelessness.  I've felt it myself.  What I needed was to see with my own two eyes what I was capable of.  It also helped to see others working through their challenges.

Don't tell him what works.  Help him see for himself what's working already.  From there he'll likely be able to track his own progress and see the learning for himself.  Start where he is now.  What is he learning now?  Go to him and see.  Watch him play.  Listen to him talk.  You find the learning and gently show it to him.  Mirror it back to him.  Be authentic.  Look wide.  

<<yes he has friends online but he wants friends to hang out with.>>

I don't know what kind of a community you live in, but is there a way to connect with other families (community Yahoo list, Facebook page, local newpaper) and set up a gaming club where kids come over with their laptops and play games all together for a couple/few hours?  There are a few of these in our community.  We've hosting gaming parties with friends here at home.  

Has he checked out Unschooling Gamers? He might be able to connect with more online friends and Skype chat.  

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/unschooling_gamers/info

Here's a list of gaming conferences.  Perhaps he would like to go to one of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gaming_conventions

Do you have a Makerspace in your community?  Maybe he would be interested in checking one out:

http://spaces.makerspace.com/makerspace-directory

<<He feels pressure to do something because his friends are working, going to college etc.>>

Perhaps he would be interested in reading "Better than College" by Blake Bowls: 

http://www.amazon.com/Better-Than-College-Successful-Four-Year/dp/0986011908/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424187507&sr=8-1&keywords=better+than+college

He runs a program called Unschool Adventures:

http://www.unschooladventures.com/

As well as camps for unschooling teens:

http://www.nbtsc.org/
http://www.bowmanadventures.com/

Unschooling conferences may also be a good place for your son to meet like-minded people.   

Go slow with suggestions though.  Don't suggest anything until you are calm enough to accept a "no" or a "not right now".  Think of him when you make your suggestions—not what you would like to see him doing, but what you think *he* might really enjoy himself.  You might need to get to know him a little better.  He doesn't need more pressure.  I think he needs a friend.  Be his friend.  Be the best friend you can be to him.  

https://learninghappens.wordpress.com/2014/10/18/be-their-parent-not-their-friend/  

Karen James

semajrak@...

<<As well as camps for unschooling teens:>>

Sorry, I need to clarify here.  I think it sounded like I was suggesting Blake Boles (I didn't spell his name correctly either...my apologies, again) ran the camps.  He does not.  What I included in the previous post was a couple camps run here in the US that are for homeschooled or unschooled teens.  There might be others in your area if you are not from the US.  


Juliet Kemp



=== When he says it is too late - it is too late to learn anything.  I have talked to him about how learning is a life long thing and it is never too late. ===

Does he see you learning stuff? Or your partner? Or any other adults around him? Don't do it to "model" it in a fake kind of way, but you could think about what *you* are learning right now (or what you'd love to learn and consider starting!) and gently mention it if the opportunity arises. 


Juliet  

Sandra Dodd

Blake (Boles) has a new book, too, called The Art of Self-Directed Learning. It's cute, small, easy to browse and jump around in.