KaitKalKenz3@...

I don't even know where to start. My 12 year old daughter, McKenzie, and I had a disagreement tonight. It ended with me saying that I just wanted her to be happy to which she replied "what if I don't want to be happy?". I said "fine, I'm done trying to figure out how to make you happy". This is very unlike me to say something like this but I'm so frustrated. I walked into the living room leaving her in the kitchen. I was in the living room for about half an hour wrapping Christmas presents. I walked back into the kitchen expecting my daughter to be at her computer at the kitchen table where I left her. She was not. I noticed that the door to the garage was unlocked when I had remembered locking it. I went into the garage and noticed that the main door was unlocked as well. I ran around the house searching for her but couldn't find her. I left in my car to look for her. She has done this two other times...just left when she's upset but it's always been earlier in the day and I've found her both times. This time, it was after 11pm. After driving around looking for her for a few minutes, I came back home and did one more look around the house before I was going to call the police. I didn't want to get the police involved but I didn't know what else to do. I was worried sick about her. Right as I was walking back upstairs from the basement, she came walking in the door. I don't have many, if any, rules that I ask her to follow but I told her tonight that I have to make one rule that she can not just leave when she's upset. She can go on the porch or the patio or in her room or the basement but she can't just leave our yard without telling me, especially at almost midnight at night. I don't know if she will listen to that rule but she needs to know that she just can't go walking around town at midnight.


I've wanted to write to this group for a long time but I keep putting it off because I'm worried about being judged. But after tonight, I just need to hear some advice from people who unschool also because I just want my daughter to be happy and I don't know what to do to help her be happy. Some back information, we started unschooling 6 years ago. My daughter went to kindergarten, first grade, and the first day of second grade at a public school. My son was already homeschooling. My oldest daughter wanted to continue going to public school. I read a lot about unschooling before my son and youngest daughter started. The first couple of years were rough because we had a lot of deschooling to do. But the next couple of years were wonderful, everything fell into place and it was amazing how much unschooling changed our lives. However, the past couple of years, my youngest daughter, who has always been very shy, just seems to be withdrawing more and more. It's been harder and harder to find things that she likes doing as she gets older. She's not as interested in much, other than drawing. She only has two friends. They are both boys and they both go to public school so she only gets to see them once in a while. She is with me or alone almost every day. I work 3 days per week. She is able to come to work with me 2 of the 3 days if she wants to. 


Even though I am constantly telling her how proud I am of her, she has such low self-esteem. She is very critical of herself. I don't understand why because she is very talented and I tell her that all the time. I've never belittled her or mistreated her so I have a hard time understanding why she thinks so little of herself. She also can never make a decision even though I never force her to do something that she doesn't want to do. Her favorite responses to anything that I may ask her is "I don't know", "I don't care", or "It doesn't matter". She just seems sad and upset 90% of the time. The other 10%, she is talkative and silly and funny, but then just like that, she's sad and depressed again. I know that this group doesn't like labels and neither do I but I am just so worried about her. I'm concerned that something more serious is going on, like depression, or bipolar disorder. I've told her that I will do anything for her. If she wants to go back to public school, I will enroll her again. If she wants to join a homeschool or unschool group or class or whatever she wants to do, I will help her. I try so hard to let her know how much I love her and just want the best for her. It just seems like nothing I do makes her happy. I've even asked her if she wanted to go to counseling. She said she doesn't. I told her that I wouldn't make her if she didn't want to but I'm worried that if I don't get her help that this unhappy feeling is going to get worse. I don't want her to do anything to hurt herself. She has never threatened to hurt herself but my ex-husband completed suicide in 2008 so whenever someone is unhappy, my mind always worries about the worst happening. (My ex-husband is not McKenzie's father. He was my older two children's father.) 


Does anyone have any recommendations of what I should say or do to help my daughter? I don't know if she's just having hormonal changes since she's around that age. She has not started her period yet. I'm feeling very helpless, and I'm sure that she's feeling very helpless as well. Thank you all for taking the time to read this. This was a condensed version of what's been going on, as there is just too much, it would take pages to type it all. I've only written to this group once or twice over the years. I read a lot. However, I have not read about anyone else having a similar situation as I have with McKenzie. I love her so much. I just want her to know that and to be happy. Thank you!

Joyce Fetteroll

> On Dec 16, 2014, at 1:44 AM, KaitKalKenz3@... wrote:
>
> "what if I don't want to be happy?"

I would give some serious thought to what your daughter asked. Because what I picked up from your post was PRESSURE.

This may sound off, but think about it. It's sounding like you feel successful as an unschooling mother if she's happy. If she's not happy, you're failing. So all your focus is on making her happy. It's like her emotions are about you not about her.

Does that make sense?

It seems like she's picked up that her emotions aren't hers to feel. They're a reflection of your success or failure.

13 yos get moody. Let her feel what she feels. She doesn't need you to take on her feelings or fix them. She needs someone she can lean on. Someone who can be understanding of her feelings but also just *be* there for her.

Create a soft nest for her to feel sad or confused. Bring her cocoa. Snuggle up and watch a movie together.

While what she did understandably worried you, my feeling is that what led up to her running off 3 times would provide more insight into what issues she's dealing with.

If a kid smacks his sister, that's wrong. But why did he smack his sister? It's the beginning that's the important part, not how it ended.

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

> On Dec 16, 2014, at 1:44 AM, KaitKalKenz3@... wrote:
>
> Even though I am constantly telling her how proud I am of her, she has such low self-esteem. She is very critical of herself. I don't understand why because she is very talented and I tell her that all the time.


Your response to her makes total sense! From the point of view of a mom.

But from her point of view it's dismissive. She's feeling down on herself. You don't need to agree, but you're telling her she's wrong to have the feelings she does. She needs understanding that sometimes -- especially at 13 -- we question whether we're okay.

If you were crying over something that someone else didn't understand, would it help you to be told your feelings were wrong?

She's going through a transition period. Her old self doesn't feel right any more. Her new self is unformed and awkward. Listen to her. Don't correct her. Don't ty to take hr feelings from her.

Have you read Parent/Teen Breakthrough? It's like an instruction manual for having a great relationship with a teen :-)

http://smile.amazon.com/Parent-Teen-Breakthrough-Relationship-Approach/dp/0452266165/

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

I’ve had frustrating exchanges with my daughter, too.  Every single time, when I look back at it, I talked too much.

-=-I don't know if she will listen to that rule but she needs to know that she just can't go walking around town at midnight.-=-

She CAN.  She can physically leave your house and walk around town at midnight.  A rule won’t prevent that, or there would be no crime in the world.

Be careful what you say about “can” and “can’t,” and be careful about rules.

Aren’t there good reasons for you to want her to stay home?  The best thing to do then, it seems, is to make home a place she wants to be.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Even though I am constantly telling her how proud I am of her, she has such low self-esteem. She is very critical of herself. I don't understand why because she is very talented and I tell her that all the time. I've never belittled her or mistreated her so I have a hard time understanding why she thinks so little of herself.-=-

Too much. 
Constant ANYthing is by definition too much.

It’s not about you.  You’re making it all about you.  She should know because you tell her all the time?  

Stop telling her.  Let her discover it.

If you were saying “I don’t know why she doesn’t know math, I recite facts to her all the time,” you would see that as a problem, probably.  

There are things she needs to learn that will not be learned from the recitation of others, especially not her mom.

Find ways to enrich her life.  There might be ideas here (for you, not to tell her about).

http://sandradodd.com/mentalhealth

Ways to make life cheerier and more positive will help everyone in the family.  And your neighbors! :-)

Sandra

Sarah Prentice

Hi There,

I am new to this group, and this is my first time posting.  Your dilemma touched my heart, as I experience similar things with my 9 year old.  I relate to your feeling of not wanting to share things for fear of being judged.  I admire your courage to share a difficult topic.   

 I absolutely agree with what Joyce has said as far as pressure. I have found myself doing this same thing with my two children.  I recognize that I am subconsciously making myself feel ok about my choices through them.  

I think the point of being there as someone she can lean on is the key.  When I was a teenager, I stopped telling my Mom about difficult things because I felt she got so emotional about them, and that just made things worse.  The bottom line was-I didn't feel listened to.  

I love the book Authentic Parenting Power, by Sandi Schwarz, as it addresses this topic and so many others in the way we relate to our children. It also has a great section on how to heal our past, and our habits of interacting, so we can really BE the parents we want to be, and allow the children to be themselves as well.  

She aso has a FB/web page called Leading Edge Parenting.  

I have a background in Early Childhood Development, so I always try to remember that my children are continually changing and growing.  I try not to take one behavior they are doing, and extrapolate that this behavior will be the way they are for the rest of their life!  It helps me calm down and gain some peace around things.  

When I am really confused and concerned about a behavior or attitude, I also just research some Child Development Ages and Stages.  I really like Erik Erikson, because his stages continue all the way through life.  I try to find some information on what typically happens at the age, and it usually helps me understand that my child is behaving within some "normal"  range.  This is for MY peace of mind, and helps me to step back and be more objective about the situation.  It helps me remove my emotions a little.  I am NOT trying to judge my child as normal vs. abnormal, but just trying to educate myself about the stages of human development.

I hope this is helpful to you, and appropriate for the group.  My heart goes out to you as a Mother!  Hang in there!

Sarah

michelle_m29@...

Maybe she really doesn't want to be happy, or to fit someone's expectations of happy. 

Are you sure she's unhappy?  There's a lot of ground between "Happy" and "Unhappy."  She might be content, or peaceful, or a whole range of other emotions that aren't unhappy.  Or maybe her type of happiness might not look like yours. 

My husband will decide that I'm unhappy if I'm too quiet, or if I'm fussing with something that leaves me out of breath or frowning....and in the process of telling me I'm upset, or making me explain that I'm not upset, he can sometimes get me feeling that way. 

My seventeen year old daughter tends to be a bit quiet and reserved...which her grandmother and some of her friends have interpreted as being sick or depressed or angry. Because Alex isn't making the right faces or acting giddy and sparkly enough. (She's not scowling or sulking or anything negative, she's just quiet.) 

Michelle 

cheri.tilford@...

a few thoughts from the perspective of someone who had quite the rough patch ages 12-15:
I was someone who was continually told how sweet I was, and while there was so much more to me than being sweet, I felt if I expressed the totality of my complex self I would disappoint people, especially my parents.  I distinctly remember feeling like I was living a lie, being sensitive to others' expectations, not wanting to hurt them or embarrass them while stifling myself.  Life, emotions, my changing body, everyone else were all so confusing to me and as a shy introvert I really would have preferred minimal contact with the outside world (unfortunately I was in school, which definitely did not help).  I had one, maybe 2 real friends, and had no need for more (I'm still that way, quite happily) though I extended myself to try to fit a social mold, which also did not help my sense of self or self esteem.  I would have given anything to be allowed to stay home drawing, reading, watching movies, whatever quiet and sometimes morose (to outsiders) activities my deep and sensitive heart was drawn to.  my mother was often worried about me and was emotional and had a hard time seeing me for me and not a product/reflection of her and her life's issues, so I kept many of my thoughts and feelings to myself.  
with time and space, I grew into a confident person with good self esteem, not because my parents praised me, but because I made my way and set my own goals and achieved success on my own terms. 

does your daughter want to draw all day?  if she's happy doing that, I think that's wonderful.  if she wants more, I imagine this is where wordless strewing could come in. 
does she want more friends?  I had a terrible time with girl friends at that age, and my closest friends were boys through most of my teen years - boys were easier, less competitive with me, less emotional, less complicated, more fun.  if she feels her 2 boy friends are enough companionship, is that ok for you?  if it's not, that's your problem.   if she wants more friends, there's not a lot you can do directly to help (my mom tried - it was awful); maybe mention - casually, only once - a group or event that fits her interests. 

I hear very clearly how much you care for her and want her to be happy.  but that's not your job, it's hers.  she has her own path to follow, her own lessons and purpose this life, and her challenges are hers to navigate.  creating and maintaining a safe nest for her and giving her the time and space she needs is better than telling her you want her to be happy.  keep your emotional stuff out of her way.  before saying anything to her, search your heart for whether she needs to hear it, or you do.  most likely you'll stop yourself, and maybe instead ask if you can give her a hug, and leave it at that. 

cheers-
cheri

Sandra Dodd

I spend time and energy being happy and trying not to make other people unhappy.  Sometimes Holly wants to be unhappy.  I think when I was 18 to 22 or so, I did that too.

My sister wrote a song called “Comfortable in Misery.”  It’s not my favorite of her songs, but it’s good for this topic.  

The younger woman in the video is Gina, my niece, whose art has been down on my video games page for MANY years.  Irene Adams, her mom, is my sister.

It might be worth a listen to people who wonder about whether someone can be useful or artistic and still be attached to unhappiness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLa1fMnWC_I

For unschooling to work, unhappiness isn’t good—if the primary unschooling parent is cynical and negative, how will questions be asked and discussions unfold?  Too many doors are closed by negativity.

But if a child HAS the option to be in or out, and chooses in, dragging her out isn’t peace or joy.

If the parent is causing some of the avoidance or frustration, that’s a problem. 

Trying to do a “system check” on my own self and the situation sometimes reveals that I’m paying too much attention to someone else’s mood, and that’s likely to make it worse.

Sandra

caskot@...

-=-  She just seems sad and upset 90% of the time. The other 10%, she is talkative and silly and funny, but then just like that, she's sad and depressed again. -=-

I also have a 12 year old daughter so your note resonated with me & it's been on my mind.  Thank you for sharing your experience as it is helpful for me to see what other people's experiences are to help illuminate the path in front of and around my own daughter.  

I can see that our children around this age are moving from the familiar, safe world of childhood into the unfamiliar, different world of adulthood.  I remember being at that stage of life myself and as I recall it was both exhilarating & terrifying with lots of raw emotional nerve endings.  We can help ease this transition with support, patience, love & understanding but we can not take away the reality that they must go through their own metamorphosis.  I was thinking about how lucky caterpillars are to be in a hibernation period during their metamorphosis.  But then again, I guess I don't really know what a caterpillar's experience is like, either.

I wonder what is making your daughter feel so sad & upset. I don't have much information about your daughter but I am thinking that for her to be so down there must be something that she is longing for or wanting that she doesn't know how to get to.  Maybe she thinks she can't. Maybe she doesn't know what she is longing for.  Maybe she does know but is afraid to tell you or doesn't know how to express it.  But I suspect there is something there that is causing her to feel this way.  Do you have clues that you could share that might help us unravel it?  Can you find ways to talk to her about what is really at the root of what is bothering her & then help her find ways to close the gap between where she wants to be and where she is?

Although my daughter adores unschooling & has benefited greatly from it, for her it did come with the feeling of being an outsider.  She was doing something different than the other kids she knew in real life and saw on TV.  As she progressed into puberty this difference started to bother her.  She was socially withdrawing & was very self conscious.

This fall her friend (who had briefly homeschooled) returned to school & Jade also decided to go back & give it a try.  Presently, for her, being in school is a better match in her mind to the life she has been imagining for herself.  I am happy for her that she has been able to find something to make her happy & curious.  I am glad she will have this opportunity to work on all of the big ideas that this experience is no doubt presenting her with.  For my daughter, part of the school experience is satisfying this current idea she has of who she is & wants to be while at the same time opening up new ideas of who/what she wants to become next.

It seems that in order to see who she is becoming & understand herself it is helpful, or maybe even necessary, for her to have other people to compare herself to. It's like - if all I see is myself then I can't see myself.  There is no contrast, no "other" to compare self to.  I think that this experience is offering her a great opportunity to go through the comparing and contrasting process that is helping her identify who she is in this world.  Sometimes that's been fun or rewarding and other experiences have been more painful.

By no means do I think that going to school is the only answer or even the best answer for many kids this age. There is an abundance of other resources out there for exploring the self.  Like Janine's 12 year old son who just got his first job, for example.  What other resources can you think of that your daughter could access?  

You mentioned that your daughter knows she has the choice to go back to school but maybe she is overwhelmed at the thought of making that choice.  I imagine that I would feel pretty overwhelmed at the thought of going into an environment where everybody else has been there for years, all doing the same thing.  Now I'm going to come in, pretty much blind, and try to fit in.  I do have some thoughts to share about Jade's experience with school which might be reassuring to your daughter or someone else's child who might be considering trying school.

Firstly, Jade has pretty much been able to jump in and understand her classes or at least fake it enough to get by.  Often her understanding is different or deeper than the kids around her.  She has gotten pretty creative about figuring out how to get the scores she needs on her assignments.  She has learned to see things from a wider variety of perspectives & has even had times when she has been able to turn a teacher on to a new idea or perspective.  :-D  Plus she knows that I am here to help her in any way that I can with assignments, understanding things, etc.

Jade is a bit confused in math but honestly, lots of the other kids - who have been attending math lessons and doing lots of math worksheets for years and years - are as confused or more confused than her!  By no means does she stand out as the only one who gets confused.  (This goes equally for the other classes, too.)  And in middle school, at our school anyway, calculators are allowed so the fact that she hasn't memorized the times tables, etc. doesn't really matter! 

The other day she told me that in gym (physical ed) they were in groups of 3 & they had to figure out how many of a certain exercise they each needed to do.  Basically, I think they had to divide something into 3 equal groups.  The other 2 girls (who are great students in math class) could not figure out how to do it but for Jade it was easy.  "I do that kind of stuff in Minecraft all of the time," she told me.

I don't know what it is like in other places but where we live the 12 year olds are middle schoolers.  This is a time when several smaller elementary schools funnel into one larger school.  That means that the environment and a lot of the people and classes are new for everyone.  So it might be a good time to give it a shot.  Or not.  But moving toward a life that fits the one she is imagining in her head, whatever that is, is progress.  :-D

-Cass

Sandra Dodd

-=-For my daughter, part of the school experience is satisfying this current idea she has of who she is & wants to be while at the same time opening up new ideas of who/what she wants to become next.

-=-It seems that in order to see who she is becoming & understand herself it is helpful, or maybe even necessary, for her to have other people to compare herself to. It's like - if all I see is myself then I can't see myself.  There is no contrast, no "other" to compare self to.  I think that this experience is offering her a great opportunity to go through the comparing and contrasting process that is helping her identify who she is in this world.  Sometimes that's been fun or rewarding and other experiences have been more painful.-=-

Cass wrote that.

Kirby and Marty always had a lot of gamer friends, and informal running-around jock friends (boffer fighting, pick-up field stuff).

Holly was by herself more than she would have liked, and she thought seriously of going to school.  

I like the way Cass described the advantage, and I think it's described in terms of what Howard Gardner calls "intrapersonal intelligence"—self knowledge.

The experience of a child who is in school wholly by choice, for her own purposes, who has parents who would be happy for her to quit school and come home, is not nearly the same as that of a child whose parents are pressuring them, who have no choice, who is being told that their performance in school will make or break their whole future.

Those of us who went to school without an option are likely to imagine that the emotions we had would be what our children would experience if they went to school, but I don't see how they could, *IF* the parents have been unschooling long enough to be sufficiently deschooled that they (the parents) will NOT throw that overlay of crucial importance onto school.

Sandra

anniel_5@...




---In [email protected], <Sandra@...> wrote :


The experience of a child who is in school wholly by choice, for her own purposes, who has parents who would be happy for her to quit school and come home, is not nearly the same as that of a child whose parents are pressuring them, who have no choice, who is being told that their performance in school will make or break their whole future.

Those of us who went to school without an option are likely to imagine that the emotions we had would be what our children would experience if they went to school, but I don't see how they could, *IF* the parents have been unschooling long enough to be sufficiently deschooled that they (the parents) will NOT throw that overlay of crucial importance onto school.

Sandra>>>>

I've definitely found this to be true. My 10 year old daughter tried school this year (the school year has just finished in Australia) - she went part time, and was able to satisfy her desire to see what school was like, and to see if she was missing out on anything by not going to school. I was worried about how she might be negatively impacted by being in the school system, but I was able to keep those thoughts to myself and talk about it positively with her and with others. She loved being there and was so happy to have the experience, and then decided herself that she wouldn't return next year - she found it wasn't any better than not being at school, and that unschooling was less tiring. Her teachers commented regularly on how enthusiastic and involved she was in all the lessons, and that it was amazing to see how being there by choice made a difference to joyful participation. Her report at the end of the year even said that she encouraged other students to become more involved in lessons.

I think she actually wishes that school was better - because she likes the idea of going there, and being part of that social scene, and community - but it really didn't live up to the images that other people had shared with her about how great school is. I feel that by having had her desire to go to school respected, and then being given the choice to come home again when she wanted to, she feels confident now to find that social and community environment in other areas, and isn't wondering whether she is missing out by not going.

Annie

Sandra Dodd

-=- I feel that by having had her desire to go to school respected, and then being given the choice to come home again when she wanted to, she feels confident now to find that social and community environment in other areas, and isn't wondering whether she is missing out by not going.
-=-

GOOD point!
And nice outcome.

Now she's REALLY unschooling by choice and by *informed* choices. :-)

Sandra

redknot@...

-=-Although my daughter adores unschooling & has benefited greatly from it, for her it did come with the feeling of being an outsider.  She was doing something different than the other kids she knew in real life and saw on TV.  As she progressed into puberty this difference started to bother her.  She was socially withdrawing & was very self conscious.-=-

This reminded me of an article my kids and I looked at recently and had a nice discussion about. We talked about how different our lives are from other families (and from families shown on TV), and how having freedom can be overwhelming sometimes.

Nina

When Unschooling Children Discover Their Lives Are Unconventional