guilt, jazz, spirituality/philosophy
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/30/02 11:40:09 PM, starsuncloud@... writes:
<< Perhaps without that experience, you wouldn't have pointed quite so many
people or in quite so drastic a way, towards unschooling.
It all worked to bring about the way you help people now...so it was
important. >>
Probably. And so with the same pointing that points toward unschooling I
HAVE to point away from a curriculum. I "just say no" to requests for me to
help find a curriculum the same way I'd just say no if someone was asking me
to lend them illegal weapon and some rubber gloves and a ski mask to pay a
visit to the Circle K.
Extreme perhaps, but if people choose a a curriculum it won't be because I
helped.
But here's the behind-the-scenes peek:
I think a curriculum can work okay in some cases. I could have really gone
for something like that myself when I was a teenager, and would have done it
myself without anyone making me or having to help me much. My objection is
the the abuse of materials by parents who know diddly about human development
and learning. It pretty much amounts to abuse of the kids, then, at some
point (sometimes the very first moment and ever thereafter).
It's like the arguments against teaching. I teach all the time. I teach
when I speak at unschooling conferences. I teach a dozen thirty-second
lessons a day around here, whether it's how to use Comet cleanser or how
apostrophes work. But I think it's like playing jazz. First people need to
really learn to play the instrument, to operate the equipment. And THEN they
can improvise. And "the equipment," the basic instrument of unschooling is
to be able to see and trust natural learning. Until that's internalized and
can be played in the dark, by ear, not even thinking about it, teaching will
too often result in disruption of the process, and will erode the learners'
ability and confidence.
Even well-intended unschoolers can do that kind of damage to learning and
confidence that school-at-home families can do if they don't guard against it.
Pam Sorooshian and I were having a chat the other day I wish I had saved, but
maybe we can reproduce some of the ideas. (Pam's about to leave town for a
week and some, but might not be gone yet.) It concerned the idea that
unschooling is a spiritual ...
I'm out of a noun. A spiritual endeavor? That when you get comfortable
with unschooling it's the same as some of the descriptions of spiritual goals?
(Feel free, anyone to jump in if a useful phrase comes upon you!!)
What I think it might be is a philosophical position involving awareness in
the moment. That's not common in this culture. We reserve most "philosophy"
and "religion" to religion.
There are people who "study philosophy" who don't even seem to have a
philosophy, or who don't seem to know philosophy is an actually useful thing.
They can tell you all about Greeks and Germans and worldviews, but they're
making their own daily decisions thoughtlessly. They studied the study of
philosophy.
So here comes something which can (doesn't have to, but has the potential to)
turn into a lifestyle and "practice" which does kind of resemble mindfulness
and right living.
The definition has to be discussed constantly not because we're not sure of
it, and not just because there are always newcomers, but because it's the
examination of the ideas and our beliefs and actions that creates the
understanding which forms the basis of the relationships within the family.
When a new situation comes up here, I run back through all the "rules" and
principles we've used before to try to apply it to the new situation. Marty
has left without telling me a couple of times. Not far, and not for long,
but on what basis do we make policies? Who am I being if I'm really grumpy
at him, instead of just letting him know WHY it concerns me and asking him to
discuss his plans before he leaves, and give us a chance to say it's not a
good time because we were planning to go somewhere as a family, or whatever
it might be. But I know a flexible agreement about the comings and goings of
a teenaged boy will last longer than an absolute set of rules and curfews and
limits. Putting a big boy in a small box is an invitation for him to find a
bigger box somewhere else. But I learned that from having positive results
from giving him more than usual freedom when he was four, and six...
<< Perhaps without that experience, you wouldn't have pointed quite so many
people or in quite so drastic a way, towards unschooling.
It all worked to bring about the way you help people now...so it was
important. >>
Probably. And so with the same pointing that points toward unschooling I
HAVE to point away from a curriculum. I "just say no" to requests for me to
help find a curriculum the same way I'd just say no if someone was asking me
to lend them illegal weapon and some rubber gloves and a ski mask to pay a
visit to the Circle K.
Extreme perhaps, but if people choose a a curriculum it won't be because I
helped.
But here's the behind-the-scenes peek:
I think a curriculum can work okay in some cases. I could have really gone
for something like that myself when I was a teenager, and would have done it
myself without anyone making me or having to help me much. My objection is
the the abuse of materials by parents who know diddly about human development
and learning. It pretty much amounts to abuse of the kids, then, at some
point (sometimes the very first moment and ever thereafter).
It's like the arguments against teaching. I teach all the time. I teach
when I speak at unschooling conferences. I teach a dozen thirty-second
lessons a day around here, whether it's how to use Comet cleanser or how
apostrophes work. But I think it's like playing jazz. First people need to
really learn to play the instrument, to operate the equipment. And THEN they
can improvise. And "the equipment," the basic instrument of unschooling is
to be able to see and trust natural learning. Until that's internalized and
can be played in the dark, by ear, not even thinking about it, teaching will
too often result in disruption of the process, and will erode the learners'
ability and confidence.
Even well-intended unschoolers can do that kind of damage to learning and
confidence that school-at-home families can do if they don't guard against it.
Pam Sorooshian and I were having a chat the other day I wish I had saved, but
maybe we can reproduce some of the ideas. (Pam's about to leave town for a
week and some, but might not be gone yet.) It concerned the idea that
unschooling is a spiritual ...
I'm out of a noun. A spiritual endeavor? That when you get comfortable
with unschooling it's the same as some of the descriptions of spiritual goals?
(Feel free, anyone to jump in if a useful phrase comes upon you!!)
What I think it might be is a philosophical position involving awareness in
the moment. That's not common in this culture. We reserve most "philosophy"
and "religion" to religion.
There are people who "study philosophy" who don't even seem to have a
philosophy, or who don't seem to know philosophy is an actually useful thing.
They can tell you all about Greeks and Germans and worldviews, but they're
making their own daily decisions thoughtlessly. They studied the study of
philosophy.
So here comes something which can (doesn't have to, but has the potential to)
turn into a lifestyle and "practice" which does kind of resemble mindfulness
and right living.
The definition has to be discussed constantly not because we're not sure of
it, and not just because there are always newcomers, but because it's the
examination of the ideas and our beliefs and actions that creates the
understanding which forms the basis of the relationships within the family.
When a new situation comes up here, I run back through all the "rules" and
principles we've used before to try to apply it to the new situation. Marty
has left without telling me a couple of times. Not far, and not for long,
but on what basis do we make policies? Who am I being if I'm really grumpy
at him, instead of just letting him know WHY it concerns me and asking him to
discuss his plans before he leaves, and give us a chance to say it's not a
good time because we were planning to go somewhere as a family, or whatever
it might be. But I know a flexible agreement about the comings and goings of
a teenaged boy will last longer than an absolute set of rules and curfews and
limits. Putting a big boy in a small box is an invitation for him to find a
bigger box somewhere else. But I learned that from having positive results
from giving him more than usual freedom when he was four, and six...
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/31/02 6:49:18 AM Central Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
compartmentalize nearly everything we do. This seems like an unnatural state
to me. Everything from learning, to food, to marriage, to one's life's work,
to death is isolated, dissected, and - in the process- denuded of its beauty
and depth. Unschooling seems to me to be a natural way of living life.
Learning is not divided into discrete subjects. We learn every day with our
mind, heart, and our spirit. If that doesn't smack of the Divine, I'm really
on the wrong track! It's interesting - if you read creation legends (from
any belief system, not just Judeo-Christian), there is no exhortation to
instruct our children intellectually. We are meant to teach them to live,
and to live well. This sounds like the unschooling philosophy to me.
pax.
Athena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> What I think it might be is a philosophical position involving awareness inI think that people living in the 21st century have managed to
> the moment. That's not common in this culture. We reserve most
> "philosophy"
> and "religion" to religion.
>
> There are people who "study philosophy" who don't even seem to have a
> philosophy, or who don't seem to know philosophy is an actually useful
> thing.
> They can tell you all about Greeks and Germans and worldviews, but they're
> making their own daily decisions thoughtlessly. They studied the study of
>
> philosophy.
>
> So here comes something which can (doesn't have to, but has the potential
> to)
> turn into a lifestyle and "practice" which does kind of resemble
> mindfulness
> and right living.
>
>
compartmentalize nearly everything we do. This seems like an unnatural state
to me. Everything from learning, to food, to marriage, to one's life's work,
to death is isolated, dissected, and - in the process- denuded of its beauty
and depth. Unschooling seems to me to be a natural way of living life.
Learning is not divided into discrete subjects. We learn every day with our
mind, heart, and our spirit. If that doesn't smack of the Divine, I'm really
on the wrong track! It's interesting - if you read creation legends (from
any belief system, not just Judeo-Christian), there is no exhortation to
instruct our children intellectually. We are meant to teach them to live,
and to live well. This sounds like the unschooling philosophy to me.
pax.
Athena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jon and Rue Kream
>>>> There are people who "study philosophy" who don't even seem to havea
philosophy, or who don't seem to know philosophy is an actually useful
thing.
Sandra sent me off on a quote hunt...Thoreau wrote in Walden, "There are
now-a-days professors of philosophy but not philosophers." Google sent me
to some really great quote sites if anyone is interested in Thoreau.
www.quotegallery.com and www.chesco.com
Here's one to pique your interest: "How could youths better learn to live
than by at once trying the experiment of living?"
~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/31/2002 7:39:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
--pamS
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> I think that people living in the 21st century have managed toAwesome points Athena -- worth pondering long and hard!!!!!
> compartmentalize nearly everything we do. This seems like an unnatural
> state
> to me. Everything from learning, to food, to marriage, to one's life's
> work,
> to death is isolated, dissected, and - in the process- denuded of its
> beauty
> and depth. Unschooling seems to me to be a natural way of living life.
> Learning is not divided into discrete subjects. We learn every day with
> our
> mind, heart, and our spirit. If that doesn't smack of the Divine, I'm
> really
> on the wrong track! It's interesting - if you read creation legends (from
> any belief system, not just Judeo-Christian), there is no exhortation to
> instruct our children intellectually. We are meant to teach them to live,
> and to live well. This sounds like the unschooling philosophy to me.
--pamS
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]