<emstrength@...>

The other day my 7 year old was on the phone with a friend and the friend asked what she did all day. She said, "I spent all day with J! [another friend] It was horrible! She talks and talks and talks! She just never stops talking!"

I want her to know that if she's tired of playing with J, it's ok to tell J to go home. Or to tell me to tell J to go home. I've told her this before and I try to pay attention to her cues and just tell J to go home myself if I see she's getting overwhelmed, but I need to maybe say it in a new/better way that lets her know it's ok to have friends who we really like without really liking everything about them and it's ok to not want to spend as much time with them as they would like.  Suggestions of a better way to say it?

I don't think it's ok to talk about friend A to friend B the way she was doing. However, I do want her to know it's ok to talk to ME about her friends, even if she is venting about frustrating things they do. How do you discuss talking about people behind their backs with your kids?


Emily

E-7
L-5
Z-2

Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't think it's ok to talk about friend A to friend B the way she was doing.-=-

Quickly answer (to yourself, within yourself) why you don't think it's okay.

Be more specific about what is not okay with you, and where you got that idea.

Is it okay to say nice things about people when they're not there?

Why did you choose the phrase "behind their backs"?

Sandra

<deborah-alwayslearning@...>

​-==-The other day my 7 year old was on the phone with a friend and the friend asked what she did all day. She said, "I spent all day with J! [another friend] It was horrible! She talks and talks and talks! She just never stops talking!"

I want her to know that if she's tired of playing with J, it's ok to tell J to go home. Or to tell me to tell J to go home. I've told her this before and I try to pay attention to her cues and just tell J to go home myself if I see she's getting overwhelmed, but I need to maybe say it in a new/better way that lets her know it's ok to have friends who we really like without really liking everything about them and it's ok to not want to spend as much time with them as they would like.  Suggestions of a better way to say it?

I don't think it's ok to talk about friend A to friend B the way she was doing. However, I do want her to know it's ok to talk to ME about her friends, even if she is venting about frustrating things they do. -==-

When my daughter was 7, posing questions or brief, simple scenarios that appealed to her still-emerging sense of empathy sometimes helped with situations like this.

I might ask a question like, "If I were (D, her friend's name), hearing you say those things about J, I might wonder whether you were saying bad things about me to other people. It might make it harder for D to feel like she could talk to you. Does that make sense?" Sometimes this kind of question started a good conversation. More often it didn't go far, but usually it seemed like she understood my point. (Sandra asked about what's wrong with this kind of talk -- to me, what's wrong with it is that it doesn't foster trust among friends, and it can hurt feelings and harm friendships if the trash talk gets back around to the person it's about -- which it often did when I was that age. I'm wary of getting close to people who bad-mouth others, because often it isn't an isolated occurrence.)

And I might also say, maybe at a different time to avoid saying too much at once and making it all sound like parental blah-blah-blah, "I wish I'd known you were feeling so frustrated with J. Maybe next time, if you could let me know, I could help you change things, or end the play date sooner without making anyone feel bad. Do you think that could work?" That sort of suggestion led to good conversations and did work out well -- my daughter was more able to call in my help when things got tough.

I'm looking forward to seeing what other ideas might emerge here. These are the best ideas I've come up with for this sort of thing, but I'd be glad to learn better ideas if they're out there!

-Deborah, whose daughter is now 9

 



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

The other day my 7 year old was on the phone with a friend and the friend asked what she did all day. She said, "I spent all day with J! [another friend] It was horrible! She talks and talks and talks! She just never stops talking!"

I want her to know that if she's tired of playing with J, it's ok to tell J to go home. Or to tell me to tell J to go home. I've told her this before and I try to pay attention to her cues and just tell J to go home myself if I see she's getting overwhelmed, but I need to maybe say it in a new/better way that lets her know it's ok to have friends who we really like without really liking everything about them and it's ok to not want to spend as much time with them as they would like.  Suggestions of a better way to say it?

I don't think it's ok to talk about friend A to friend B the way she was doing. However, I do want her to know it's ok to talk to ME about her friends, even if she is venting about frustrating things they do. How do you discuss talking about people behind their backs with your kids?


Emily

E-7
L-5
Z-2

<robin.bentley@...>

~ I want her to know that if she's tired of playing with J, it's ok to tell J to go home. Or to tell me to tell J to go home. I've told her this before and I try to pay attention to her cues and just tell J to go home myself if I see she's getting overwhelmed, but I need to maybe say it in a new/better way...~

Maybe it's too much responsibility for your daughter to tell J to go home or to remember what you've said before.

If you see that things aren't going well, you could ask your daughter to come talk with you privately, giving her some breathing and thinking space. Ask her then what she wants to do. Even though "J talks and talks," it might not be horrible all the time and she might tell you to let J stay. Perhaps she's trying to be kind to her friend by letting her stay. If she wants J to leave, you can make that happen without your daughter being the one to tell her.

It's a lot for a 7-year-old to make those kinds of decisions in the abstract. Help her do what she wants to do, in the situation.

Robin B.

Sandra Dodd

There is a prejudice in our culture against women's ways of being and learning, and toward that of men.

Men learn by doing things and watching other people do them. They learn to build houses and hunt and all kinds of things that way, in a very natural way. Some women do too, but it's predominantly the way men hang out with other men and learn to row a boat or tie a knot or fish.

Women tell stories to each other. They talk about cooking and childbirth and about human interactions. Social "niceties" are what women have been responsible for in most families in most societies related to the English-speaking world. There might be some exceptions, but they're not in the realm of thank-you notes and party decorations, remembering the birthdays of girlfriends of sons, and buying and wrapping gifts (while knowing what sort of gift is appropriate for what occasion, and how much to spend based on how close the relationship or friendship is, and balanced against how wealthy the main gift giver(s) will be so you don't make them look bad by spending too much.

It's all tied in with religion and fears, but "gossip" has been considered a sin for a few hundred years, and was especially villified, I think, by the Puritans.

If someone dies, other people related to that person, or friends with that person, need to know. Not in a sensationalist way, but in such a way that others will not be insensitive. But that can't be done without talking behind their backs. Ditto all kinds of other life changes—birth, marriage, divorce.

If someone does something very nice for you, it's not a bad thing to tell all your friends.

I just had the same two electricians to my house for the second time. I love these guys! I might go online and give them a nice review, but that will be behind their backs.

This is why I'm asking. To use a phrase like "talking about people behind their backs" is to quote someone else. It's to make a vague yet sweeping negative appraisal of something... vague.

Women, especially, talk to each other. Some men are that way, too. My friend Jeff knows and remembers every little bit of relationship or friendship anyone he knows ever had and is a good protocol advisor because he knows who needs/wants/knows/expects what, and which other peoples' presence might make things awkward. He uses his power for good.

And I think the important thing is whether there is malice, or whether it's conversational. People have the right to talk about their own lives, and other people are a part of our lives. If I were to tell you lots of stories about these electricians, would it be gossip or me telling something interesting I learned from and about a nice couple of men?

Go easy about condemning something with a phrase that came to you whole.
http://sandradodd.com/phrases

What I don't like is when people tell lies about other people. I don't care how they do it. If what is said is untrue, that is evil.
What I don't mind is when people tell nice stories about other people, so as to raise the other person's reputation for good and well-deserved reasons.

There are stories in between those and they should not all be reviled as "gossip" or "talking behind someone's back."

Sandra

<bjelwell@...>

Instead of gossiping, your daughter could have been venting to a sympathetic friend. 


She chose to reveal her feelings of frustration to her friend, and not to her mom.  Why?


I often vent to my husband about my friends, and not one to another, because I know he's a safe, neutral party.  I know he's always on my side, and won't say a word to anyone.


Before you discuss the repercussions of  "talking behind someone's back", it might be better to focus your efforts on becoming that safe, supportive person. 


The book "How to Talk to Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk" has great ideas.


"So, J talked and talked all day, huh?"

"Did you feel like you couldn't get a word in?"

"Hmmmm...."

"You just weren't interested."

"Yeah...."

"You wanted some peace and quiet."


"You know, I've felt trapped sometimes with friends before."

(You have?)


Barb, who recently felt trapped in a one-sided conversation

Joyce Fetteroll


On Sep 19, 2013, at 2:49 PM, <robin.bentley@...> <robin.bentley@...> wrote:

Maybe it's too much responsibility for your daughter to tell J to go home or to remember what you've said before. 

That's important.

It's reasonable to assume that because a child isn't doing what Mom thinks is sensible, that the child must not understand. But the idea of telling you when she's done with the play date isn't that complex! ;-) There's something else going on. She's making choices that make sense to the situation as she sees it.

The choices that's leading her to complain might be about the friend OR about the friend she's talking to. Maybe she's connecting with the friend on the phone through complaining.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

I do think that book can be useful, and I do think the mom should not judge so harshly a child venting, and it would be good if the child could vent to the mom.  That, I agree with. 

This, though, seems too scripted, too pushy, too much putting negative ideas in her head that might not have been there.

---------

"So, J talked and talked all day, huh?" 

"Did you feel like you couldn't get a word in?"

"Hmmmm...."

"You just weren't interested."

"Yeah...."

"You wanted some peace and quiet."

______________

Too much projection, I think, and interpretation.  

Sandra

Karen

>>>>>She said, "I spent all day with J! [another friend] It was horrible! She talks and talks and talks! She just never stops talking!"<<<<<

I had a similar experience to this recently. Ethan was visiting with a friend who has recently been introduced to Minecraft, and is very excited about it. This friend was sharing *all* of his ideas with Ethan in a nonstop stream of dialogue.

Now, Ethan has done this with me many, many times. There have been times when I've needed to say to Ethan, "Wow, man! You have a lot of good ideas! I need to take a bit of a break from listening so I can process some of them." Usually, he says, "Just one more!" and shares one more before he or we move on to something else for a bit.

So, because I know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of a lot of excited ideas all at once, I could see that Ethan was getting a bit overwhelmed with his friend's sharing. Internally I chuckled a bit before I headed over to offer another ear for the excited friend. That made some room for Ethan to have a bit of a break. Then the conversation moved toward more of a two way communication.

Later that night I said to Ethan, "[Friend] sure was excited to share his ideas with you today." Ethan said "Yeah! I just couldn't listen to it all!" I said "I understand." Again, inside, I chuckled a bit. He's figuring it out. :-)

Now that Ethan is ten, I don't spend as much time with him and his friends as I did when he was younger. I often do play with them all, but they like to do their own thing too. But, regardless of whether I'm playing with them or not, I do still keep within earshot so that I can offer help when I feel like help might be appreciated.

>>>>>I don't think it's ok to talk about friend A to friend B the way she was doing. However, I do want her to know it's ok to talk to ME about her friends, even if she is venting about frustrating things they do.<<<<<

I really do want Ethan to find people besides me that he feels like he can be open with. I feel good when I hear him sharing with others - good things and difficulties.

When I share a struggle I'm having with someone, I'm usually looking for feedback to help me better navigate a particular relationship, or else I'm trying (probably awkwardly) to establish personal boundaries for myself through example. In either case I'm hoping the person I'm sharing with will trust that I have no ill intent.

Trust that your daughter is not sharing her feelings with her friend from a place of mean spiritedness. Maybe the experience *was* horrible for her. See if you can help her have it not be so horrible next time. Before the friend comes over again, maybe ask your daughter for suggestions on how you can help her have a more enjoyable time with her friend.

ronivee3

This is my first time posting.
I really enjoy the discussions and I really have found the ideas exchanged very useful.
I am by nature quite reflective and so things like this have given me much fodder for thought over the years.


It is a dilemma, I agree.


First & foremost I think we want our children to know that there is value in honesty.
Also I think there is a thin line here that I myself find hard to negotiate: how do we teach a morality or ethic?
How do we emphasize allowing our children to feel at home, and more importantly, at peace with their genuine feelings?


Also, what about the day when, as needs be, our children complain about us, "behind our backs?"
We want them to know they can come to us **and** as has been said, sometimes talking things over with a friend is the way we all get our ducks in a row and crystallize what the salient points are that need addressing.
Veronica

Schuyler

Gossip has a function. Talking about other people is a useful thing. It is good both to know how someone is reliable and how someone isn't. Wikipedia has a brief section on it, but with a few citations, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gossip#Evolutionary_View. It might shift how you see your daughter talking about other people if you think about it as a normal human behaviour. It is a normal way of being social. 

There is a big bit of biology that focuses on cheating with altruistic relationships. I was looking for evidence of species that can communicate about cheaters to each other, but can find none. It seems that our language skills give us a huge leg up on cheater detection. 

It may help your daughter, at some point, if you talk about folks who talk too much about other people. Slag them off too much and it may skew people away from the negative talker. That said, I have found, being a Pollyanna about my children and my husband has definitely isolated me in some communities. It has made me less trustworthy, as I have not paid the same social cost as others have, I assume. Or because I come off as being superior in attitude. 

Schuyler

Sandra Dodd

-=-Also I think there is a thin line here that I myself find hard to negotiate: how do we teach a morality or ethic? -=-

You don't.
Don't teach. Unschooling will start to flow when teaching is abandoned.
http://sandradodd.com/teach

Until a person stops doing the things that keep unschooling from working, unschooling cannot begin to work.
(That's a quote from this: http://sandradodd.com/schoolinmyhead )

http://sandradodd.com/spirituality
That has a bit about morality.

-=-Also, what about the day when, as needs be, our children complain about us, "behind our backs?"-=-

Why "as needs be"?
When my children talk about me or their own dad to other people, that is not "behind our backs." That is them discussing their real lives. We were once a huge part of their lives. Someday we will be a small part. We're tipping toward smaller now that they're young adults.

http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2013/08/right-and-true.html
Live your life in such a way that other people will trust you. When you make decisions, make generous, selfless decisions so that others benefit. When you say something, do your best to say what is fair and right and true. When you write, write things you don't mind people taking out and sharing.

A person is only trustworthy if he has earned trust, if he is worthy of being trusted.

Live so that your kdis have great stories to tell about you.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-That said, I have found, being a Pollyanna about my children and my husband has definitely isolated me in some communities. It has made me less trustworthy, as I have not paid the same social cost as others have, I assume. Or because I come off as being superior in attitude. 
-=-

I've been around Schuyler's family, and they get along well.  
I know other families that don't, and when I'm around the mom who's disparaging her children and husband behind their back, it seems pretty evident that the harsh, critical attitude is a big factor in WHY they have bad things to say about each other. It's a cycle.  Negativity builds itself a big ball of negativity, and it grows.


But a young girl telling a friend that another friends talks so fast and so much isn't evil.  

Maybe talking about personalities with the daughter would help.  Instead of talking directly about her friend, maybe characters on movies or in books could be examples.   

Sometimes with old people who live alone, they need to talk.  At the grocery store, or in waiting rooms or on airplanes. :-)
Sometimes a child whose family expects her to be quiet gets happy when she finds a place where "shhh... too loud, I'm on the phone / the baby is sleeping" isn't the constant response.

There are lots of maybes and they might be worth considering without aiming them at one friend.

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll


On Sep 21, 2013, at 5:52 PM, ronivee3 wrote:

how do we teach a morality or ethic? 

You don't teach them. You *be* ethical. 

In your interactions with them, with your spouse, friends, be honest with them. Be patient. Be thoughtful. Be trustworthy. Be joyful. Use your values to guide your choices. 

Use your values when you help your kids meet their needs.  Focus on meeting their needs but build being thoughtful, respectful, safe into the solutions you help them with.

How do we emphasize allowing our children to feel at home,
and more importantly, at peace with their genuine feelings?

When would feelings not be genuine? Don't do things that would cause kids to believe they're supposed to feel something they don't feel.

But there's a difference between having a feeling and acting on that feeling. That's what they'll wrestle with for a good long time. Be patient with their struggles. Be trustworthy. Be a person they see as someone they can go to with their troubles who will help them. Not lecture them. Not shame them. Not see them as less than they could be because they haven't figured out how to do the right thing. Be a person they see who has good ideas to offer. Who supports them as they try things out. Who they trust not to interfere in their trials when they're not doing it "right", but someone they trust to stop them if from hurting someone or damaging something. Be someone they trust to help them with things don't turn out as they expected or if they're dealing with unexpected consequences.

Joyce

ronivee3

Right. It was a rhetorical question. We cannot teach morality--and what is it anyway?

I want to trust.
I want to trust that my children are acting from a healthy impetus and know that the world is imperfect.

When thinking about the situation discribed, I thought the daughter spoke to the situation "being horrible," not the person, not her friend.
Some situations are not a good as others. It's okay to value events as "not great."

I am imperfect. I cannot aim for perfection.
A complaint about me is not a condemnation. It's a form of adjustment, its an appraisal. Perhaps it leads to a tweaking.

Trust is made over time. Hopefully I will have many moments to contribute to any assessment abut my character--not only the "moment that just happened." I want to give and be given second chances---and third, fourth etc.

I want to keep looking at how I can live in the moment and be compassionate.
I want to take the slow ride.
veronica

Sandra Dodd

-=-Right. It was a rhetorical question. We cannot teach morality--and what is it anyway? -=-

The objection was to your use of "teach," which you're still using.

We can facilitate our children learning about morality.  
We can, ourselves, make moral choices.

-=-I want to trust. 
I want to trust that my children are acting from a healthy impetus and know that the world is imperfect.-=-

"Trust" is confusing.  It might be better to let it go for a while, and think of principles and choices.

HOW to make choices, based on what, will lead toward morality and eventually to more trust.

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll


On Sep 21, 2013, at 5:52 PM, ronivee3 wrote:

Also, what about the day when, as needs be, our children complain about us, "behind our backs?"

Don't be someone they need to complain about to someone else.

Be someone who listens to what they want and need. Especially when it's contrary to what you want for them. Be someone they *see* as trustworthy and resourceful. 

Be someone who listens to their emotions and body language in your interactions with them. If you're frustrated them, what could you have done differently, what can you do differently next time so they're not frustrated.

They will vent to others. It's part of getting along with people who have different wants and needs and ways of doing things. But the more responsive you are to their signals that you're irritatingly putting your agenda for them ahead of their agenda for themselves, the less they'll have to vent about.

And be thoughtful about what you say about others to your kids and around your kids. Help them make kinder choices if they've hurt someone. 

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll


On Sep 22, 2013, at 8:41 AM, ronivee3 wrote:

I want to trust that my children are acting from a healthy impetus and know that the world is imperfect.

Parenting is hard because conventional parenting focuses on changing children. It's about stopping them from doing wrong and making them do, act, think right.

Children react badly to it because *people* don't like being someone else's fixer upper project. All people appreciate being liked for who they are right now and trusted to want to be better people.

Be who you believe it's best to be. Act according to your own values. Create an atmosphere where making a kind choice is easier than making a hurtful choice. Create an atmosphere where everyone feels safe.

Joyce

<plaidpanties666@...>

 >> I think we want our children to know that there is value in honesty.

Also I think there is a thin line here that I myself find hard to negotiate: how do we teach a morality or ethic?<<


--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

This is my first time posting.
I really enjoy the discussions and I really have found the ideas exchanged very useful.
I am by nature quite reflective and so things like this have given me much fodder for thought over the years.


It is a dilemma, I agree.


First & foremost I think we want our children to know that there is value in honesty.
Also I think there is a thin line here that I myself find hard to negotiate: how do we teach a morality or ethic?
How do we emphasize allowing our children to feel at home, and more importantly, at peace with their genuine feelings?


Also, what about the day when, as needs be, our children complain about us, "behind our backs?"
We want them to know they can come to us **and** as has been said, sometimes talking things over with a friend is the way we all get our ducks in a row and crystallize what the salient points are that need addressing.
Veronica

It's not necessary to teach those things. If you are honest in ways that your children appreciate, they'll have reasons to value honesty. If you're trustworthy from their perspective, they'll value trustworthiness. 

The challenge is in the words "from their perspective". If you are being honest from your perspective but confusing your kid with too much information, then honesty doesn't look so good - it looks like blather and disregard of the listener. If you are being trustworthy from your perspective, but it feels like over-protectiveness from your kid's perspective, that's not going to translate into real trust. Your child's perspective is important because it will effect what he or she learns more than what you teach. Every time.

---Meredith

<emstrength@...>

Joyce said: "And be thoughtful about what you say about others to your kids and around your kids. Help them make kinder choices if they've hurt someone."====

Yes, this is what I was concerned about.  That if the friend on the phone told J (the talkative friend) what my daughter had said, that there would be hurt feelings. 

Someone said to be the safe person my daughter can come to with her venting.  I am.  That is how I knew that J is talkative often, not just that one day.  I have not said anything to her about this yet, because I was thinking it through first, so thank you for all the replies that have helped with that.

Three times today, when J came to play, I asked my daughter (away from where J could hear) if she really wanted to play or if she would like me to send J home.  Twice she said she would like J to go home, but for me not to make the reason about her (but to say that I wanted E to stay home and J to go home).  I think she is feeling conflicted between liking playing with this girl and getting overwhelmed by this girl's personality, but doesn't realize how overwhelmed she is until I mention it.  So I will just keep being aware so I can remind her that she has options.


Emily

   




 



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:


On Sep 21, 2013, at 5:52 PM, ronivee3 wrote:

Also, what about the day when, as needs be, our children complain about us, "behind our backs?"

Don't be someone they need to complain about to someone else.

Be someone who listens to what they want and need. Especially when it's contrary to what you want for them. Be someone they *see* as trustworthy and resourceful. 

Be someone who listens to their emotions and body language in your interactions with them. If you're frustrated them, what could you have done differently, what can you do differently next time so they're not frustrated.

They will vent to others. It's part of getting along with people who have different wants and needs and ways of doing things. But the more responsive you are to their signals that you're irritatingly putting your agenda for them ahead of their agenda for themselves, the less they'll have to vent about.

And be thoughtful about what you say about others to your kids and around your kids. Help them make kinder choices if they've hurt someone. 

Joyce