jo kirby

(sorry I am re-sending as I forgot to put a heading the first time)


Hi All,
I'm trying to get clarity around the following, and would appreciate any input and ideas on how to move forward:

In the past year or so my son (6.5, always unschooled) has got really into eating sweets, and sweet snacks. He doesn't eat many big meals, but prefers (like me) to snack through the day. We always have a good range of snacks available most of which are really quick to prepare or just grab. I used to make him monkey platters a few times a day with a variety of stuff he liked, including fruit, veggies, crackers, pasta, bread etc and sweet snacks like sweet waffles, biscuits, macaroons and stuff he liked. I buy a wide variety of food including sweet things because he likes them. His main drink is fruit juice or elderflower cordial, which he drinks from a sippy beaker.

He was eating a pretty balanced diet and would often leave the sweet things in favour of the veggies, until a year or so ago, when it pretty much reversed. He now often comes to me and says "mummy, what have you got that's sweet?". He started getting into sweets (confectionery) around the same time (before that he wasn't much bothered), and I was quite excited about all the different sweet varieties and was enthusiastic and supportive of buying them for him. 

Privately, I was a little concerned, not so much about the amount he was choosing, but more that he didn't seem to be eating much other food, but I kept that to myself and just kept offering a variety.

Last week we went to the dentist and whereas 9 months ago his teeth were apparently fine, this time he had one hole and another one starting. The dentist filled the hole (very quick and pain-free - took about two minutes), and put some sealant on the other (again about two minutes). She said his teeth were clean so it wasn't the cleaning, it was his diet - too much sugar. She talked to me as if it was a given that I was in total control of what he eats.

Afterwards Sam wanted to go straight to the shop to buy some sweets. He did not seem at all fazed by the filling/sealing. We talked a bit about what we can do to reduce the amount of sugar in his diet, like eating sweets in batches then drinking water, rather than sucking on one after another all afternoon, and Sam was enthusiastically coming up with ideas. He seemed fine with the conversation. A week later however, I can see that he doesn't really seem that interested or bothered at all. When I kept reminding him for the first couple of days it started to affect our relationship because I think it was irritating for him and frustrating for me. It didn't feel good. He chooses what he wants in the moment and he likes sweet things - I get that.

My husband Jay (who isn't completely behind Sam having food choice freedom, but is trying to understand and says he's trusting me), wants to talk about the tooth hole. We started a conversation (it got interrupted with other stuff) and I could see he is upset and really struggling. He said "this is why parents make rules, so the kids know what the deal is and there doesn't have to be a whole discussion about it every time". He said he thinks Sam drinks too much juice, and eats too many sweet things. I get the strong impression he thinks I'm living in cuckoo land for supporting Sam's choices and buying him sweets and letting him drink so much juice. I'm starting to wonder if I am! He also said he would really struggle to forgive himself if Sam's teeth go rotten and that he's worried Sam will turn round and blame us and say "why didn't you stop me!?". (Jay has always had issues with his own teeth, and still has to have regular surgery on them, but I
don't think that's from too much sugar - I think it's hereditary, but teeth are an issue for him).

So, I am trying to straighten out my thoughts. Here's where I'm at so far: 

I do think the amount of sweet stuff Sam is choosing is probably causing enamel decay.
I do think it would help his teeth stay healthier if he cuts down the amount of sugar he eats and drinks.
I don't want Sam to get rotten teeth, and I feel a very strong urge to protect them.
I see why he wants/likes sweets and sweet stuff.
I am behind him making his own choices.
I see that me trying to enforce ideas about sugar/diet will likely affect our relationship negatively, and I don't want that.
I feel that our difference of opinion over this is affecting my relationship with Jay, and I don't want that either.

I think, if it were just me, I would try to gently remind Sam to be aware of sugar once in a while, but I would try to not be so afraid of fillings that I let it affect our relationship, and the peace in our home. Am I being irresponsible if I'm saying I won't get into an argument with my child over sweets? Even if he might end up with a mouth full of fillings or false teeth?


Plus obviously, it's not just me ;-) so how do I balance everyone's opinions and needs? Thoughts I've come up with so far are poorly limited to:

Keeping slightly less sweet stuff in the house. Not great because if I say "I'm sorry I don't have any xyz" when Sam asks, and he says "ok, let's go to the shop and get some then..." either I refuse (potential stress for our relationship), or we probably end up buying a whole load of extra sweeties!
Telling Jay that I will take all responsibility for any subsequent dental issues, and if Sam wants to blame someone when he's older - I will tell him to blame me and himself, not Daddy. Not a great plan.

Jo

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Sandra Dodd

Jo, I read your whole post. All of it.

But it all sounded like blah blah blah sweets blah blah blah dentist, blah blah blah husband (same as many stories over many years) except this part. THIS JUMPED OUT!!

-=-I used to make him monkey platters a few times a day ...-=-

Why "used to"?
He's six!
What happened!?

-=-I used to make him monkey platters a few times a day with a variety of stuff he liked, including fruit, veggies, crackers, pasta, bread etc and sweet snacks like sweet waffles, biscuits, macaroons and stuff he liked. I buy a wide variety of food including sweet things because he likes them. His main drink is fruit juice or elderflower cordial, which he drinks from a sippy beaker.-=-

He's still drinking from a baby cup.

Make more monkey platters. INTERESTING monkey platters with apples and cheese. Monkey platters with things that will fill him up so he won't think so much about what food to eat.

Read about dental carries, and contagion (from mothers) and genetics (from both parents) and don't make the mistake of believing you can control that. There are people with cavities who "did everything right." There are people who never do anything "right" and have no cavities. Adults.

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/unschooling%20in%20action/brushingteeth.html

Sandra

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Karen

>>>>> She said his teeth were clean so it wasn't the cleaning, it was his diet - too much sugar. She talked to me as if it was a given that I was in total control of what he eats.<<<<<

When my husband was a baby, his mother dipped his soother in coke so he would take it. As a child, he drank more cola than any other liquid, and ate cookies, cakes, ice cream and candy to his heart's content. When he and I first moved in together, he always stocked the refrigerator with two 2L bottles of soda, orange and pepsi. He is still a big fan of root beer, though his sweet tooth has much diminished as he has aged. He has *never* had one cavity in his life. He's 41 years of age now.

What I have read is that cavities have to do with mouth bacteria. Our neighbour needs to have his teeth cleaned four times a year due to a certain kind of bacteria that thrives in his mouth and can cause cavities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_caries

There are toothpastes you can use to help. Here are a couple I found for a friend not too long ago:

http://www.squigle.com/squigle.html
http://www.mi-paste.com/apply.php

Facebook also has a great group for families with tooth decay issues:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/523381421012243/


>>>> Afterwards Sam wanted to go straight to the shop to buy some sweets. He did not seem at all fazed by the filling/sealing. <<<<<

My son had four teeth sealed a few years ago. He felt good about it. He's ten now, and hasn't had any further issues with tooth decay. After his recent dental visit, we went to get a double scoop ice cream! I grew up on ice cream. My dad worked in an ice cream factory. I didn't have a cavity until I went through a growth spurt as a teen. Then I had six cavities at once. My enamel had softened due to my rapid growth. It sounds to me like your son has fewer issues with his tooth decay than you do. Don't create anxiety where it isn't warranted. Your suggesting he might end up with a mouth full of false teeth seems very extreme in today's world.

>>>>> My husband Jay (who isn't completely behind Sam having food choice freedom, but is trying to understand and says he's trusting me), wants to talk about the tooth hole.<<<<<

Make time to talk with your husband about his concerns. He absolutely deserves that respect and attention. Do some research yourself and share your findings with him. Prove to him you are not living in "cuckoo land." That will validate his trust in you, which is a lovely gift, not to be taken for granted. :-)

Karen

Meredith

jo kirby <jokirby2004@...> wrote:
>> Last week we went to the dentist and whereas 9 months ago his teeth were apparently fine, this time he had one hole and another one starting.
*************

Maybe you need to have a good gripe session with some other moms about dental check ups - you might be crowing with pride rather than panicking over a mere pair of cavities ;)

>>She said his teeth were clean so it wasn't the cleaning, it was his diet - too much sugar.
*************

That statement doesn't even make sense. If his teeth are clean, then there's no sugar on them, feeding the bacteria which cause caries. If she means his teeth don't have plaques, well, plaque formation isn't the same as dental caries, they're two different processes and what she said is even more meaningless. She's reciting the standard script, what "everyone knows" because everyone repeats back and forth without thinking. Even dentists. Kid has cavities - even one, even half of one, even a soft spot that might be gone in six months - say: "too much sugar". It's Expected of them.

Correlation isn't causality. Changes in diet which correspond to other changes don't necessarily mean the diet is causing the change. A big, big factor in both dietary changes and changes in mouth bacteria is development - hormones change things. That's what they're for ;)

>>He did not seem at all fazed by the filling/sealing.

Fantastic! If you're worried about his teeth, have them all sealed as you can afford it. Usually they're happy to do a few at a time, rather than the whole mouth at once. Getting teeth sealed is one of the really concrete things you can do to prevent cavities. You can't control genetics or development, your son is obviously brushing enough to satisfy the dentist, changing diets can be stressful (and stress can cause an upswing in mouth bacteria and cause cavities)... but if your kid will sit for having his teeth sealed, that's gold.

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=- Your suggesting he might end up with a mouth full of false teeth seems very extreme in today's world.-=-

I had qute a few cavities as a child. By the time I was taken to a dentist, when I was 11 or 12 or so (the old days, a poor mom who was distracted by her own problems) I had half a dozen, and over the next several years I had some more. My teeth were crooked and dentists said that because of that, I would get cavitie and lose those teeth. The cavities have mostly been in molars. The crookedest teeth are fine and still there.

I have two false teeth (two bridges). One was knocked out by accident playing with a little girl of mine. It was knocked loose once, and then hit again later, also in playing. Not her fault. :-) One got a deep infection had had more fillings than tooth and wasn't worth saving, as such. It's a second-to-the-back molar.

I'll turn 60 this summer. I have most of my teeth. The days of dentists pulling them all out are long past. My grandmothers had dentures, but people didn't know the effect that had on other health factors, and it's less common now.

I had my teeth cleaned a month ago. Dentists offices are very uncomfortable for me. I'm fine with heights, spiders, dead birds, and I can touch yucky stuff, but it's hard for me to go to the dentist. I take nitrous oxide when it's on offer.

The hygienist asked if I'm brushing twice a day for at least two minutes each time. I said probably not two minutes. She said I should. And the one before bed didn't need to be toothpaste�could just be mouthwash or water. My brain didn't perk up at the news, because the official recommendation of the only right way to brush teeth has changed every five years or so my whole life. Then she said the measurable part. She said the if I brush for two minutes each time "It will make this that much easier."

"By 'this,' she meant the cleaning. But the cleaning had been quick and easy, and I had no problems. Things were fine.
How much easier could it have been? It took 20 minutes.

If I brush my teeth for two minutes at a time instead of for one minute, say, that adds 365 minutes times two. I think thats twice six hours, isn't it? Oh, but wait. I have my teeth cleaned three times a year because my saliva is not very strong at dissolving things. A cough drop can stay in my mouth for hours if I'm asleep, or an hour and a half if I'm awake. So four months.

If I brush my teeth two extra minutes every day for four months, that's four hours? (a third of the 12 hours that 730 minutes is?)

HOW can four hours of brushing make a twenty-minute cleaning "that much easier"? If the cleaning was "harder," and took an hour, say, I'm still ahead, timewise.

So worry less, I think is the point I'm trying to make. Brush teeth because it feels good or to make breath sweeter, or to get food out from between teeth, not "because the dentist said to." Don't try to brush teeth in some magical-prevention way, because generally speaking, the dental profession is changing their minds all the time, and they like for you to think they know exactly what's what, when they don't.

Sandra






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Mette G.

>> His main drink is fruit juice or elderflower cordial, which he drinks from a sippy beaker.<<<

One thing you can do is drink very sweet or acid drinks with a straw. It limits the contact with the teeth. I have one daughter who consistently does this every time she has juice, soda or something like that, even though noone else in the family is as serious as she is about this. It was a tip I got from a dentist several years ago, and I shared it with her - for a while I did it myself but stopped again - my daughter has continued...


>>>>he's
worried Sam will turn round and blame us and say "why didn't you stop me!?".
<<<<<

I think the risk of this is much greater when a child grows up with the parent(s) making all or most of the decisions. It's easier to look for someone to blame, if you're not used to being responsible for your own life. When on the other hand, a child grows up accustomed to making informed decisions, learning to weigh pros/cons, brainstorming for solutions and dealing with what happens (good and less good) - there isn't so much a need for throwing the blame on someone.


>>>Even if he might end up with a mouth full of fillings or false teeth<<<

For tooth decay specifically it's not likely a worst case scenario of a full rotten mouth and false teeth would just appear overnight, out of the blue :) There would have been several occasions to review his stand or his approach to things before that point. And if a child is unschooled, he would have had plenty of
opportunities to make all sorts of decisions regarding
his teeth over all that time.


Mette


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