[email protected]

In a message dated 12/14/2001 12:01:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> There seems to be a lot of antagonism among unschoolers against the
> Christian right. In England about 1% home educates for religious
> reasons, religion is almost never mentioned at groups because it is
> not really a big deal in English life.
> I was pretty shocked coming to america and seeing all these different
> camps of home-schoolers sniping at each other.
> Surely unschooling should teach us to be tolernat of other people's
> choices, even if we think they are wrtong.
>

You're right...and a few years ago as a new homeschooler I went to quite a
few "support" groups where it was clear that this Lesbian Unitarian
Universalist family was not welcome, and was apparently going to Hell. I
decided my then little boy didn't need to hear that about his family. So...I
am cautious, and try to be tolerant and welcoming of others even as I'm not
sure they will return the favor. That said...again, you are right.

Kathryn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

I missed who wrote the original here, but I agree about the antagonism
among unschoolers against Christians.

I love Jesus with all my heart, am trusting in Him alone for my
salvation, believe that the Bible is God's Word to us, and
believe that it is my number one responsibility as a parent
to show my children how to enter into a relationship with Jesus and
submit to His will for their lives. Before making my (prayerful)
decision to unschool, I joined several unschooling lists and read many
unschooling message boards. While I found answers to my questions and
doubts about unschooling, I was also totally shocked at how
anti-Christian values they were! Yet, when I visit Christian
unschooling sites and read Christian unschooling books, I find myself
feeling that very few of them are *truly* unschooling.

It would be awesome to find an unschooling board that generally stuck
to unschooling without talking about how important it is to pass on
liberal values to our children.

I usually find myself not really *fitting in* on ANY unschooling
board. Take the current homosexuality discussion, for example.
Someone asked how we would feel if our children were homosexual. Do I
answer the question truthfully and spending an untold amount of time
defending my position, my right to hold that position, and probably
defending my parenting/unschooling skills in general? Or do I just
keep quiet and not participate in the discussion so as to not make any
waves (This would mean staying quiet for the majority of the
discussions that have been on this and other unschooling lists so
far!)? Or do I go to a Christian group where I would agree with the
values but would at best find little common ground when it comes to
educational philosophy or at worst have to constantly defend my
unschooling philosophy?

What's a Christian unschooler to do?

Sheila

> > There seems to be a lot of antagonism among unschoolers against
the
> > Christian right. In England about 1% home educates for religious
> > reasons, religion is almost never mentioned at groups because it
is
> > not really a big deal in English life.
> > I was pretty shocked coming to america and seeing all these
different
> > camps of home-schoolers sniping at each other.
> > Surely unschooling should teach us to be tolernat of other
people's
> > choices, even if we think they are wrtong.
> >
>
> You're right...and a few years ago as a new homeschooler I went to
quite a
> few "support" groups where it was clear that this Lesbian Unitarian
> Universalist family was not welcome, and was apparently going to
Hell. I
> decided my then little boy didn't need to hear that about his
family. So...I
> am cautious, and try to be tolerant and welcoming of others even as
I'm not
> sure they will return the favor. That said...again, you are right.
>
> Kathryn
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 12/18/01 12:10 AM, kayb85 at sheran@... wrote:

> What's a Christian unschooler to do?

Start your own group I guess! :-)

I do understand where you're coming from. It's *wonderful* to find a group
of people who share a lot of the same values and thoughts. But generally in
most aspects of our lives we have to cobble together what we need from a lot
of different folks and groups. Though it's great if we can find an all
purpose friend how many people are so lucky? It's more often that we can
find someone who shares one of our interests and another friend who shares
another, people to fill in the gaps so to speak.

Unschooling groups never would have come about if the unschoolers hadn't
felt that general homeschooling groups didn't quite fit the needs they had.
And Christian "unschooling" groups wouldn't have formed if the unschooling
groups hadn't quite fit their needs. Not quite sure how you'd distinguish
Christian unschooling from Christian real unschooling, but I bet there are
more out there with the same feelings as you.

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>It would be awesome to find an unschooling board that generally stuck
>to unschooling without talking about how important it is to pass on
>liberal values to our children.

Perhaps you could start a list of your own. You could state right up front
what your goals are for the list. There must be others out there who share
your same religious convictions and also choose to unschool. Maybe there
will be more after your list is formed and other Christians get a chance to
discuss unschooling with you.

I understand where you're coming from and wish you the best in finding a
situation that feels right for you.

~Mary

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Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/18/2001 10:14:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> I usually find myself not really *fitting in* on ANY unschooling
> board. Take the current homosexuality discussion, for example.
> Someone asked how we would feel if our children were homosexual. Do I
> answer the question truthfully and spending an untold amount of time
> defending my position, my right to hold that position, and probably
> defending my parenting/unschooling skills in general? Or do I just
> keep quiet and not participate in the discussion so as to not make any
> waves (This would mean staying quiet for the majority of the
> discussions that have been on this and other unschooling lists so
> far!)? Or do I go to a Christian group where I would agree with the
> values but would at best find little common ground when it comes to
> educational philosophy or at worst have to constantly defend my
> unschooling philosophy?
>
>

I think part of the challenge to participate in a list is to treat each other
with respect. More liberal unschoolers can be careful of generalizing when we
talk about our experiences with particular groups of Christian Homeschoolers.
Likewise, Christians can recognize that while they believe certain things,
others don't, and being told we're going to hell for our beliefs is not
constructive.

I understand that you might feel "unpopular" at times on unschooling lists.
Compared to the world at large, there aren't THAT many Unschoolers, and most
of them seem to be pretty liberal. Being a Christian Unschooler must feel
lonely at times. (I know being a Lesbian homeschooling family does.)

Kathryn




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/17/2001 9:12:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sheran@... writes:


> Or do I just
> keep quiet and not participate in the discussion so as to not make any
> waves (This would mean staying quiet for the majority of the
> discussions that have been on this and other unschooling lists so
> far!)? Or do I go to a Christian group where I would agree with the
> values but would at best find little common ground when it comes to
> educational philosophy or at worst have to constantly defend my
> unschooling philosophy?

I don't find that I have to keep quiet about very many discussions on lists
like these as LONG as I'm nice and very very clear that my values are MY
values and that I'm not even remotely interested in forcing other people to
live by them. The problem is that so many Christian homeschoolers (not all,
not even most - but enough that most of us have run into them) ARE interested
in forcing everyone to live according to their values. For example, they want
laws against abortion and laws not allowing gays into the military. That
goes, imo, far beyond ones own personal values - that is the desire to force
other people to live according to ones own religious values, whether they
share them or not.

I, personally, am not interested in doing that at all. I want to live
according to my values -- I want that freedom. And I believe very very
strongly that the only way I'm going to really have that freedom is for
everybody to have that freedom.

--pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/17/01 10:12:17 PM, sheran@... writes:

<< What's a Christian unschooler to do?
>>

Is the Australian Christian unschoolers' list not a good one? I thought it
was.
The ladies who wrote the book about Christian unschooling?

(There's a link to their stuff at http://expage.com/unschoolingotherwise )

[email protected]

<< Christians can recognize that while they believe certain things,
others don't, and being told we're going to hell for our beliefs is not
constructive. >>

This is a fallacy.

Christians CANNOT recognize that others just believe different things.
They are commanded by Jesus to teach all nations. If they don't try to
convert us (perhaps by suggesting we're risking hell, for starters), they are
not being good Christians, they're not emulating Christ who spent his life
preaching.

There are more liberal Chrisitians who don't have that imperative, but
evangelican Christians and fundamentalists cannot being to compromise their
beliefs by any thought that another's belief system is legitimate.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/18/2001 9:11:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
PSoroosh@... writes:


> I don't find that I have to keep quiet about very many discussions on lists
> like these as LONG as I'm nice and very very clear that my values are MY
> values and that I'm not even remotely interested in forcing other people to
>
> live by them. The problem is that so many Christian homeschoolers (not all,
>
> not even most - but enough that most of us have run into them) ARE
> interested
> in forcing everyone to live according to their values.

Okay so I'm tacky tacky tacky (quoting myself). But just TODAY I had a little
experience which reminded me to tack something else onto what I said above.
The problem is ALSO that so many Christian homeschoolers just walk up to you
and find out you homeschool and then ASSUME you agree with them on whatever
values or beliefs they hold. Happened today - and after being socially
trapped listening to this person rant on and on about her anger that some
sign in some museum represented a hidden agenda to attack the Christian Faith
because it said that the arrival of Christianity reduced the power of Viking
women and how we all needed to really make sure our children realized that
these attacks on our faith were everywhere and on and on and on..... I had to
decide whether to escape or argue and whichever I did I knew I was going to
be stuck with a bad taste in my mouth. (I escaped - coward that I am and
realist that I am - I do try not to get sucked into ridiculous arguments.)

--pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<< the arrival of Christianity reduced the power of Viking
women >>

When I'm out there in April...
I will ask her what she knows about Viking women's rights in their pre-church
laws.

For one thing, before "the sacrament of marriage," a marriage could be
annulled for abuse or homosexuality. The woman simply put the man's things
outside her door, informed her brothers that she had done so, and he was
outathere.

he introduction of Catholicism (the same Catholicism, or worse than, I'm
assuming this homeschooler's Christianity rebelled against not once but most
likely twice, if she was from one of the very many protestant churches that
formed out of the Church of England after THEY rejected Catholicism) brought
legalized abuse and powerlessness to Norse women. Perhaps Italians and
Spaniards were just used to it pre-Catholicism, I don't know. I know less of
their earlier legal history.

There were Norse/Icelandic property traditions there too which Catholicism's
wills and testaments changed. The Catholics liked part of a dead man's stuff
reverting to the church in exchange for their acknowledgement of his will.
Before that women had their dowries (bride price) which was returned on
divorce, abandonment or death. The Catholic church in Europe was like the
new Roman Empire. "Church Law" tried to supercede local common law, and on
threat of eternal death often succeeded.

Iceland survived the longest without being overrun by the Catholics, and they
were overrun with the least impact for a while (maybe forever; I didn't read
on through to the present). There's a set of post-Catholic Icelandic laws
I've read that have some very strange and particular-to-Iceland laws.

The kneejerk defense of "Christianity" by a Protestant should always be
questioned. Nobody hated the Catholics like the Protestants did.

Sandra

kayb85

I have the Christian Unschooling book and am disappointed in it.
There is a lot of talk about unit studies and curriculums. There are
essays from people who share an average day in their house and the
majority of them are NOT unschoolers imo. It is more of an "extremely
relaxed Christian homeschooling" book rather than an unschooling book.

Where do I find the Australian Christian unschoolers' list?

Sheila


--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/17/01 10:12:17 PM, sheran@p... writes:
>
> << What's a Christian unschooler to do?
> >>
>
> Is the Australian Christian unschoolers' list not a good one? I
thought it
> was.
> The ladies who wrote the book about Christian unschooling?
>
> (There's a link to their stuff at
http://expage.com/unschoolingotherwise )

Joseph Fuerst

> For one thing, before "the sacrament of marriage," a marriage could be
> annulled for abuse or homosexuality. The woman simply put the man's
things
> outside her door, informed her brothers that she had done so, and he was
> outathere.
Just to clarify, marriages can STILL be annulled today, for many reasons.
An annullment means the marriage was never fully valid in the first place.
No matter the ritual, marriage is something that occurs through spirit and
commitment.
S

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/19/01 2:00:17 PM Mountain Standard Time,
fuerst@... writes:


> No matter the ritual, marriage is something that occurs through spirit and
> commitment.
>

Not according to the Catholic church.

Neither "annulled" nor "divorced" is a Norse word. I don't know what their
term for it was, but the woman always had the right to end the marriage
summarily and without outside approval.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Rudd

> after being socially
> trapped listening to this person rant on and on
> about her anger that some
> sign in some museum represented a hidden agenda to
> attack the Christian Faith
> because it said that the arrival of Christianity
> reduced the power of Viking
> women and how we all needed to really make sure our
> children realized that
> these attacks on our faith were everywhere ........


Actually, it is the attacks on women's power that are
everywhere. Christianity, and the associated politics,
have reduced the power of women of other cultural
backgrounds, too. Sometimes this power reduction is is
called "fighting against Christianity" and sometimes
called "Christian missionary" work. The results are
the same.

Sharon of the Swamp...just gossiping with the laundry



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