[email protected]

My son and I were talking today about fear. What we each fear. And what's a
"natural" fear. What's self-imposed. What causes fear?

Anyway, the two "natural fears " we came up with were falling and the
unknown. Fears other than that we figured were self-imposed or caused.

I know a lot of people/children with a fear of dogs, spiders, bugs, snakes
(my mother-in-law's---maybe we should get one! <g>), closed spaces, heights
(or is this falling?), darkness.

I can't think of anything I'm really afraid of. Falling scares me a bit
(that's why the top half of the house is still unpainted!)---but the plan is
to have the house painted before October---and I'll be doing it. I have an
irrational fear of public schools---in fact, I've never set foot in a public
school classroom---literally---NEVER! But now that we've learned so much
about them and chosen unschooling, I guess the "fear" is hardly irrational! <
g> Seems justifiable!

Do y'all have any fears? Were thay caused by anything (being knocked down by
a Great Dane when you were two?)? Why are snakes so fear-inducing?

Do ya'll have anything to add to our conversation?

Thanks!
Kelly

Karen

I've heard that heights and the dark are the two "natural" fears. I have
vertigo with heights, but I chip away at it a little at a time. Last week I
went rock-climbing on a rock wall at ds's birthday party; I just didn't look
down!

My niece and nephews are all terrified of dogs, and my sister (their mom)
has always been afraid ever since one jumped on her when she was little. I
have to wonder how much of that was communicated; she's no longer afraid,
but she is cautious and I think the body language comes across. I knew my
kids would be around animals of all kinds, so I started early telling them
about dogs' communication and exposing them to different breeds and sizes.
They're both as easy around animals as I am.

Karen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/13/02 10:08:06 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< Do y'all have any fears? Were thay caused by anything (being knocked down
by
a Great Dane when you were two?)? Why are snakes so fear-inducing?
>>

They stare at you and they move without legs on solid land. That's plenty
enough for me!

I don't actually have a snake fear, but I can just look at them and know why
others would have.

I'm afraid of breaking down far from home and having more kids with me than I
can take care of and keep safe.

I'm afraid of falling asleep while I'm driving.

I don't think those are the same kinds of fears you mean, though, but I do
think of them more often than it seems I should.

I'm afraid of dying while I'm out of town, so I usually have a whole day
before each out-of-town trip dedicated to doing little oddments of stuff that
I'd be really embarrassed to be caught not having done if I don't make it
back after the weekend or whatever. I realize I could die going to the
grocery store near my house, but the fear has more to do with going a
thousand miles away (or even 300) and never coming back.

As I get older I'm more afraid of falling down. I've fallen three times
since we've moved to this house. I do NOT like to see the world spin by.
This one is based on having broken my leg bigtime, in the mountains, in the
dark, in 1985, and being afraid of being similarly in pain and laid up. Now
that my kids are older the fear is fading (they can wipe their own butts and
do their own laundry, although none is driving yet), but it's being replaced
by my age coming on and my fear of slower healing. So I'm cautious about
walking on ice, about running, climbing, walking in the dark, etc.

Sandra

Nancy Wooton

on 5/13/02 8:59 PM, kbcdlovejo@... at kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> My son and I were talking today about fear. What we each fear. And what's a
> "natural" fear. What's self-imposed. What causes fear?
>
> Anyway, the two "natural fears " we came up with were falling and the
> unknown. Fears other than that we figured were self-imposed or caused.
>
> I know a lot of people/children with a fear of dogs, spiders, bugs, snakes
> (my mother-in-law's---maybe we should get one! <g>), closed spaces, heights
> (or is this falling?), darkness.

Carl Sagan wrote a book called "The Demon-Haunted World" you might want to
read :-) Fear is how evolution keeps you alive long enough to reproduce.

Phobias are another story. My dad said he was claustrophobic because, in
another lifetime when he was a priestess of Athena, he was buried alive on
order of the Emperor Constantine.

I think his dad locked him in the root cellar.

Nancy



--
THE TRUTH IS NOT OUT THERE
--Bart Simpson

Tia Leschke

>Why are snakes so fear-inducing?
> >>
>
>They stare at you and they move without legs on solid land. That's plenty
>enough for me!
>
>I don't actually have a snake fear, but I can just look at them and know why
>others would have.

I don't remember being afraid of snakes *until* my parents matter-of-factly
told me how to deal with them when we were going to be going into
rattlesnake country. After that I used to have horrible nightmares about
them. I'd see one on the trail ahead of me, so I'd turn back and there'd
be one behind me. I'd keep turning until I was surrounded by coiled,
rattling rattlers, then try to jump out of the circle. I'd wake up doing
that, but then I'd half believe that there was one at the foot of my
bed. I'd know it wasn't really there, but I still wouldn't be able to
extend my feet down to the end of the bed. I didn't manage to lose *most*
of that fear until I had grown up and moved to a place where there are no
poisonous snakes. Even then, I had to de-sensitize myself gradually, by
making myself look at pictures and then touch the pictures. Then I could
touch a snake at the science museum. Then one day, I was with a group of
adults and kids who had spotted an injured snake on the lawn. We figured
it had been injured by a lawn mower. I was the only one willing to pick it
up and move it to a safer spot, and I was *so* proud of myself. I still
startle when I see one, but only briefly.


>I'm afraid of breaking down far from home and having more kids with me than I
>can take care of and keep safe.

That too, kids or no.


>As I get older I'm more afraid of falling down. I've fallen three times
>since we've moved to this house. I do NOT like to see the world spin by.
>This one is based on having broken my leg bigtime, in the mountains, in the
>dark, in 1985, and being afraid of being similarly in pain and laid up. Now
>that my kids are older the fear is fading (they can wipe their own butts and
>do their own laundry, although none is driving yet), but it's being replaced
>by my age coming on and my fear of slower healing. So I'm cautious about
>walking on ice, about running, climbing, walking in the dark, etc.

I fell skating a number of years ago. I had been a speed skater as a teen,
but I hadn't skated much in years and was trying to skate on figure
skates. I landed on my knee and shoulder, and neither hurt a lot at
first. But the shoulder was really painful the next day, and it took *2
years* before the pain completely went away. You bet I don't skate
anymore. Between the slower healing at my age and the extra weight I'm
carrying, I've gotten very cautious about falling.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Shyrley

There's a fine line between fear and dislike.
I don't fear ticks but my reaction to them looks to others like I do.
I can't think of any fears, only things I prefer to avoid but will face if I
have too. Like flying. Bears. Public speaking.

Shyrley
"Common sense is what tells you that the world is flat"

moonmeghan

<<<<--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:

> I know a lot of people/children with a fear of dogs, spiders,
bugs, snakes
> (my mother-in-law's---maybe we should get one! <g>), closed
spaces, heights
> (or is this falling?), darkness.>>>>

Tamzin's fears are mostly concerning spiders, bugs and heights
(she wouldn't look at the Grand Canyon when we went). They
seem to be fading a bit more as she gets older though.

<<<< Falling scares me a bit
> Do y'all have any fears? Were thay caused by anything (being
knocked down by
> a Great Dane when you were two?)? Why are snakes so
fear-inducing?
>
> Do ya'll have anything to add to our conversation?
>
> Thanks!
> Kelly>>>>

I never used to be scared of falling, but I definitely have
developed more of a fear of this as I've gotten older. I used to be
scared of spiders, but I married a completely phobic man and
have a phobic child and that has made me pretty immune to
squeamish attacks. After all someone has to get the spiders out
of the bath! Rattlesnakes are the only fear inducing snakes for
me.

Meghan

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/14/02 12:19:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Fear is how evolution keeps you alive long enough to reproduce. >>

And I think reproducing causes more fears to surface.
For me anyway....I always envision horrible things happening everytime I have
a baby. It subsides somewhat as they get older, but it's always there.
One of the irrational fears that plays through my head more than it should,
is a fear of the car crashing into water. There is just no way I could get
all the kids out and save all of us. Maybe it's living near water and driving
over bridges all the time?
I think about it too much.
Another very reasonable fear I have is sharks.
Never did until the Jesse Arbogast incident. It did something to me, to see
the news coverage at MY beach and to drive past the hospital he was in every
day (three blocks from our house).
The timing was bad, I was just starting to train for triathlons. Jesse's
uncle is a triathlete (I watched the competition he was in last summer) and
so was another man that got attacked in summer 2000 not far from this beach.
Ugh.
The only two serious attacks in 100 years, both triathletes? Makes me feel
really good about training in open water. yk?

Ren

Sharon Rudd

> I've heard that heights and the dark are the two
> "natural" fears.

Nope. Falling (as in no support, but "heights" could
be the grown-up version) and loud sudden noises.

Babies aren't born with a startle reflex at the
dark......goodness, what would happen when the little
guys closed their eyes to sleep....or awakened all
comfy with Mama in the dark?

Sharon of the Swamp



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

Fetteroll

I'm not so sure that falling and the unknown are the anly natural fears. I
used to have this creepy feeling going into the basement that there was
someone behind me. (It was a finished basement so it wasn't dungeon like
though it was dark.) It continued right into college.

I don't have it any more so I'd be real surprised if I passed it on, but
Kathryn (10) only occasionally will go upstairs or down alone. Sometimes the
dog is enough. Sometimes she needs another person with her. (Rather oddly if
she can't get back to sleep in the middle of the night, she will go
downstairs to watch TV. But if we go upstairs to bed in the evening, she
won't stay downstairs by herself.)

So that sounds like it might have a genetic component.

Even though Kathryn likes bugs in general and even likes spiders when
they're safe in a jar, she gets very nervous when they're loose and says
it's just the way they move that creeps her out. As far as I know, she
didn't have any bad experiences with spiders. I don't think it's a great
stretch to see a genetic predisposition to avoiding things that move in
certain ways.

Does anyone have any coping strategies for fears? Kathryn has a great fear
of lightning striking the house. She came to appreciate spiders after
reading a couple of books but lightning is one of those things where
learning more about it only confirms that you have something to be nervous
about! ;-) Anyone have ways of helping kids deal with the fears?

I'd always been curious how creatures know that great big creatures like
cows aren't a threat. One day I was sitting at our campsite reading when a
groundhog popped up and began nibbling in the grass. I noticed that when I
stared at the groundhog it would scurry back into the burrow. When I read,
it would venture out. I wonder how much of that is learned and how much is
hardwired. I know cats don't mind being stared at but it makes dogs nervous.
I can see wolves learning that social convention from pack behavior but why
would dogs keep passing that on if it was entirely taught? There doesn't
seem a reason for it in pet dogs. So it sounds suspiciously genetic.

Joyce

[email protected]

On Wed, 15 May 2002 08:44:25 -0400 Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
writes:

>There
> doesn't
> seem a reason for it in pet dogs. So it sounds suspiciously genetic.

Guilt.
My dog's always guilty of something. Drinking my coffee, sneaking cat
food, stealing sandwiches, sleeping in the kitchen sink. If I stare at
her she will first hang her head, then begin to scream, and eventually
fall over and show me her belly. I think that's a "How'd you know?...
Yes, I did it....How can you be mad when I'm so cute?"
Just like people, dogs wonder what you're thinking if you stare at them.
They wonder what you know.
In a thousand years I expect they'll have religion. Cat already have
it. They worship themselves. That's why they don't care if you stare.
<g>

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/15/2002 8:49:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
> I'm not so sure that falling and the unknown are the anly natural fears. I
> used to have this creepy feeling going into the basement that there was
> someone behind me. (It was a finished basement so it wasn't dungeon like
> though it was dark.) It continued right into college.

Learned by watching too many scary movies? <g>

>
> I don't have it any more so I'd be real surprised if I passed it on, but
> Kathryn (10) only occasionally will go upstairs or down alone. Sometimes
> the
> dog is enough. Sometimes she needs another person with her. (Rather oddly
> if
> she can't get back to sleep in the middle of the night, she will go
> downstairs to watch TV. But if we go upstairs to bed in the evening, she
> won't stay downstairs by herself.)
>
> So that sounds like it might have a genetic component.

Sounds more learned----maybe as you carried her up and down stairs as a
youngster, you held her a little more tightly or looked over your
shoulder--just to make sure.

>
> Even though Kathryn likes bugs in general and even likes spiders when
> they're safe in a jar, she gets very nervous when they're loose and says
> it's just the way they move that creeps her out. As far as I know, she
> didn't have any bad experiences with spiders. I don't think it's a great
> stretch to see a genetic predisposition to avoiding things that move in
> certain ways.

Cameron has a "fear"of spiders. That's how the conversation started. He
couldn't think of a reason to be scared of them. Most are harmless, and
they're fascinating. Nevertheless, he gets the willies.

>
> Does anyone have any coping strategies for fears? Kathryn has a great fear
> of lightning striking the house. She came to appreciate spiders after
> reading a couple of books but lightning is one of those things where
> learning more about it only confirms that you have something to be nervous
> about! ;-) Anyone have ways of helping kids deal with the fears?

I had a friend who was struck by lightning while showering. I don't shower
while it's storming (or even sprinkling!). She's OK, but it was horrible and
scary. I don't allow the boys or the dogs near the pool when a storm's
approaching---I get a little crazy that way. But that's a learned fear.
>
> I'd always been curious how creatures know that great big creatures like
> cows aren't a threat.
>
That's kind of like dogs---People seem more fearful of BIG dogs. Most big
dogs are pussycats. It's the littluns that'll get you!

One day I was sitting at our campsite reading when a
> groundhog popped up and began nibbling in the grass. I noticed that when I
> stared at the groundhog it would scurry back into the burrow. When I read,
> it would venture out. I wonder how much of that is learned and how much is
> hardwired.

Probably both. Was it here or Unschoolingdotcom where the opossum study was
mentioned? That's survival---the ones that don't "look before they leap"
become someone's supper.

I know cats don't mind being stared at but it makes dogs nervous.
> I can see wolves learning that social convention from pack behavior but why
> would dogs keep passing that on if it was entirely taught? There doesn't
> seem a reason for it in pet dogs. So it sounds suspiciously genetic.

But we're not talking "fear" here. It's a means of communication. Dogs aren't
"afraid" of your staring at them. A dog sees you either as alpha-dog or a
threat or a bug to be crushed. It IS genetic (and possibly fine-tuned by mama
and siblings and other pooches he meets along the way).


Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/15/2002 9:32:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:


> <dog> sleeping in the kitchen sink

REALLY????


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Wed, 15 May 2002 08:44:25 -0400 Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
writes:

> I'm not so sure that falling and the unknown are the only natural
> fears. I
> used to have this creepy feeling going into the basement that there
> was
> someone behind me.

Humans still have fears of being preyed upon. When we were on the menu,
there was danger everywhere, flesh eating beasts in the darkness,
something sneaking up from behind... Although humans now are rarely on
the menu we still fear bears and lions in the same way. And we still
have an aversion to things that creep on us and make us itch.

My son has noticed that hair standing up on the back of his neck
reaction to fear and noticed the same in our dogs and cats. He suspects
it was helpful to make ourselves look bigger and more formidable when we
were threatened. A kind of primal leftover. Which reminds me to clean
out the 'fridge.

Deb L

[email protected]

On Wed, 15 May 2002 09:37:20 EDT kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> > <dog> sleeping in the kitchen sink
>
> REALLY????

Yes. She's very strange. We have found her on the refrigerator and the
dining room table. She climbs ( jumps into ) the willow tree, and will
try to climb ladders if they're left around. When my husband was
putting a new roof on the garage she wanted up there so badly and when
she couldn't find a way she just howled and howled. It's a good thing
she's cute, or we couldn't stand her.
Some days she doesn't seem cute enough! <g>

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/15/02 2:09:23 AM, bearspawprint@... writes:

<< > I've heard that heights and the dark are the two
> "natural" fears. >>

I agree with Sharon that the fear of the dark is probably induced in our
culture by our making children sleep separately with lights off. It's nuts,
really. It's unnatural, if you think of any primates or other mammals in the
wild. Foxes don't dig separate little dens for each cub. Monkeys don't put
one baby on each branch and tell them to stay there or the boogey many will
get them.

I think humans are very handicapped in the dark because sight is our best
sense, and that's why people commonly have dogs around--either pets, or
natural symbiotic neighbors who come to eat human-food scraps, and stick
around for the possibility of more food. But dogs having scent and hearing
as their strong senses, and NOT being good visually, dogs will bark, and
people will get up and grab a tool or weapon and look, and so the two species
have been found in relationship to one another since cave-days.

Other animals can serve that purpose too--alerting people if there are
strange people or animals outside the house. Geese. Horses.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/15/02 6:49:44 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< When I read,
it would venture out. I wonder how much of that is learned and how much is
hardwired. >>

Some people are better at knowing if someone is staring at them than others
are. If you can feel it, nobody can or would need to teach it to you. And
maybe what's being sensed is them thinking of you, or some kind of energy
beam we have no clue about yet. Because if someone's accidently gazing my
direction, I don't get the "eyes on me" feeling I get if they're actually
looking at me, even if it's just for a couple of seconds.

I don't understand cats, so I can't guess. We have three. You can walk
right up to them and touch them if they're asleep. Mabye it's because we're
familiar and they know that we're not a danger. Much cat-sleep is, by our
standards, mostly-awake anyway.

<<I can see wolves learning that social convention from pack behavior but why
would dogs keep passing that on if it was entirely taught? There doesn't
seem a reason for it in pet dogs>>

How could dogs pass it on without a pack anyway? They might have few to no
examples of older dogs to watch. I think it's innate.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/15/02 8:00:06 AM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< Yes. She's very strange. We have found her on the refrigerator and the
dining room table. She climbs ( jumps into ) the willow tree, and will
try to climb ladders if they're left around. >>

Maybe you could sell her to the circus! Sounds like a frustrated bike-riding
or barrel-rolling dog to me. <g>

Tia Leschke

>
>Some people are better at knowing if someone is staring at them than others
>are. If you can feel it, nobody can or would need to teach it to you. And
>maybe what's being sensed is them thinking of you, or some kind of energy
>beam we have no clue about yet. Because if someone's accidently gazing my
>direction, I don't get the "eyes on me" feeling I get if they're actually
>looking at me, even if it's just for a couple of seconds.

Noah used to drive Heather nuts by just staring at her when she was asleep
until she woke up.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

On Wed, 15 May 2002 10:35:10 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:

> I agree with Sharon that the fear of the dark is probably induced in
our
> culture by our making children sleep separately with lights off.

But I think night would have been when early hominids were most
vulnerable, if they strayed from the group. There could be predators
lurking just outside the ring of firelight, and you'd never know until
they..... got you!

I think we originally evolved to sleep together for safety, and also
because an infant or your child sleeping alone would be more likely to
make noise that would give away the location of the group.

I lean towards fear of darkness being "natural", especially darkness with
no moonlight and limited visibility, like in a jungle...

Dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/15/02 10:26:17 AM, freeform@... writes:

<< I think we originally evolved to sleep together for safety, and also
because an infant or your child sleeping alone would be more likely to
make noise that would give away the location of the group.
>>

true.

Pam Hartley

----------
From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] fear
Date: Wed, May 15, 2002, 5:44 AM


I can see wolves learning that social convention from pack behavior but why
would dogs keep passing that on if it was entirely taught? There doesn't
seem a reason for it in pet dogs. So it sounds suspiciously genetic.

----------

Mother dogs teach this to puppies, who then practice it with each other in
the litter, and dogs who then meet other dogs reinforce it. It's still a
useful social skill among dogs when sorting out pecking order, etc., so I'd
argue environment and upbringing on this one.

I've had dogs (notably Pugs, who are about as far removed from wolves/wild
canid ancestors as you can get <g>) who had no objection at all to being
stared at. I wouldn't recommend trying it with an Alaskan Malamute.

For the humans :), I'd agree that fear of being left alone (we're pack
animals, too) and fear of things that could poison us (spiders, snakes) make
sense.

Pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Hartley

----------
From: ddzimlew@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] fear
Date: Wed, May 15, 2002, 6:24 AM
Guilt.
My dog's always guilty of something. Drinking my coffee, sneaking cat
food, stealing sandwiches, sleeping in the kitchen sink. If I stare at
her she will first hang her head, then begin to scream, and eventually
fall over and show me her belly. I think that's a "How'd you know?...
Yes, I did it....How can you be mad when I'm so cute?"

---------


You may be totally kidding throughout, in which case let me apologize for
coming on serious dog trainer at you <g>.

Hanging head, vocal shrillness and belly showing are all submissive
behaviors, in escalating order. She's telling you you're top dog when she
hangs her head and breaks eye contact. When you don't seem to get that, she
tries to sound like a puppy. When that fails, she rolls over and says, "See?
I'm just a baby puppy. Please don't kill me."

Submissive urination is next, so watch how you tease the dog. <g>

Pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Hartley

----------
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] fear
Date: Wed, May 15, 2002, 7:35 AM


I agree with Sharon that the fear of the dark is probably induced in our
culture by our making children sleep separately with lights off. It's nuts,
really. It's unnatural, if you think of any primates or other mammals in
the
wild. Foxes don't dig separate little dens for each cub. Monkeys don't put
one baby on each branch and tell them to stay there or the boogey many will
get them.
----------


Rabbits don't stay with their young, and will not return them to the nest if
they wander out of it (they don't have a "carry the baby" instinct like dogs
or cats).

Rabbit moms leave the babies (albeit, together if there's more than one and
usually there is) and visit them only once or twice in 24 hours to feed and
clean them.

Pam, up on rabbits <g>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carolyn

Reading this thread, I was thinking that most of my fears tend to be
things I am afraid to experience. Off of the top of my head, I can
think of four things I feared and survived: childbirth, root canal,
divorce and jury duty

None of them were anything like what I had feared. Labor I found more
annoying than painful. The root canal was pain free. The divorce was
one of the friendliest I've ever heard of. And four and a half weeks of
jury duty (which just ended yesterday) were an enriching and
enlightening experience.

So maybe I just fear the unknown.

Carolyn

[email protected]

On Wed, 15 May 2002 10:42:50 -0700 Pam Hartley
<pamhartley@...> writes:
> Submissive urination is next, so watch how you tease the dog. <g>
>
> Pam

Well, that would explain my wet shoes then. <g>

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/15/02 12:43:43 PM, nielsonc@... writes:

<< And four and a half weeks of
jury duty (which just ended yesterday) were an enriching and
enlightening experience. >>

Would they have let you have nitrous oxide and novocaine if you felt you
needed them?

carolyn

Well, they didn't offer me any but now that you mention it, it explains
a lot about the behavior of a couple of the jurors!
carolyn

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 5/15/02 12:43:43 PM, nielsonc@... writes:
>
> << And four and a half weeks of
> jury duty (which just ended yesterday) were an enriching and
> enlightening experience. >>
>
> Would they have let you have nitrous oxide and novocaine if you felt
> you
> needed them?
>
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