Me First!
emstrength3
I need suggestions about how to respond to my 6 year old and 4 year old who both often want to go first with whatever they are doing. Several times a day, they are both chiming "Me first! I got it/had it/said it/ got there first!"
I think I unintentionally reinforced this. When one of them says, "I want to sit in that spot," and then the other one says it right after, I often say, "She asked first so she gets to sit there," if there is no other reason the other child should have it. If there is a way to share something or do it together, I try to work that out, but in so many cases there is only one person who can be the first to do something. Even when they are both going to get a turn doing something, they both want to be the one to do it first.
I read a suggestion elsewhere to try out a thing called Kid of the Day. What I read suggested the KOTD getting to do everything the way they wanted for that day and the next day it's would be the other child's turn and so on with the alternations every day. I didn't want to make it about getting *everything* their way, because if there is a way to share or do it together, we can often work that out. But we've been doing it for the last few days just for those situations in which someone goes first. They kids are happy with it so far, but I'm wondering what you all think of the whole idea? Something about it doesn't sit right with me, even though it is limiting the amount of "me first!" I'm hearing.
Emily
I think I unintentionally reinforced this. When one of them says, "I want to sit in that spot," and then the other one says it right after, I often say, "She asked first so she gets to sit there," if there is no other reason the other child should have it. If there is a way to share something or do it together, I try to work that out, but in so many cases there is only one person who can be the first to do something. Even when they are both going to get a turn doing something, they both want to be the one to do it first.
I read a suggestion elsewhere to try out a thing called Kid of the Day. What I read suggested the KOTD getting to do everything the way they wanted for that day and the next day it's would be the other child's turn and so on with the alternations every day. I didn't want to make it about getting *everything* their way, because if there is a way to share or do it together, we can often work that out. But we've been doing it for the last few days just for those situations in which someone goes first. They kids are happy with it so far, but I'm wondering what you all think of the whole idea? Something about it doesn't sit right with me, even though it is limiting the amount of "me first!" I'm hearing.
Emily
Sandra Dodd
We used to rotate who got to choose to sit where in the van. The kids helped keep track of whose turn it was.
Other things we often used rock/paper/scissors.
Sometimes if I just asked "Who got to do it first last time?" they would switch out and let the other one go first.
If that doesn't work with yours, maybe you could keep a chart for a while with tic marks for who goes first how many times, not in any kind of shaming or training way, but just so they can see that it's even and fair, or that it's too one-sided. It might be a tool to help them figure out a way to decide.
Sandra
Other things we often used rock/paper/scissors.
Sometimes if I just asked "Who got to do it first last time?" they would switch out and let the other one go first.
If that doesn't work with yours, maybe you could keep a chart for a while with tic marks for who goes first how many times, not in any kind of shaming or training way, but just so they can see that it's even and fair, or that it's too one-sided. It might be a tool to help them figure out a way to decide.
Sandra
Meredith
"emstrength3" <emstrength@...> wrote:
Since the kids are happy with it right now, it's a good solution For Now. Probably you'll find it doesn't work for everything, or doesn't work for very long, or it's something you do for awhile and drop and pick up again later... a lot of problem solving with kids looks like that. There aren't "once and for all solutions" because kids grow and change and circumstances change, too.
If they both like being "first" right now, if it's fun for them, it might help to look for ways to play with that - actively look for ways they can each be first in different ways. That might be tricky if it tends to lead to hurt feelings! That's going to depend on your kids' personalities.
---Meredith
> They kids are happy with it so far, but I'm wondering what you all think of the whole idea?***********
Since the kids are happy with it right now, it's a good solution For Now. Probably you'll find it doesn't work for everything, or doesn't work for very long, or it's something you do for awhile and drop and pick up again later... a lot of problem solving with kids looks like that. There aren't "once and for all solutions" because kids grow and change and circumstances change, too.
If they both like being "first" right now, if it's fun for them, it might help to look for ways to play with that - actively look for ways they can each be first in different ways. That might be tricky if it tends to lead to hurt feelings! That's going to depend on your kids' personalities.
---Meredith
peanutyogi
Looks like an opportunity to explore "last".
Maybe an opportunity to explore "pro's" and "con's".
In these situations with children (mine and others), I have discovered a lot about myself and the children by asking "what is the advantage to being first?" And then, "what is the advantage to being last?"
First, it difuses any power-play or competition hanging in the air. Second, it can move us toward "svadyaya" a yoga term for learning about self through looking inward, which can be a helpful tool in moving through challenging social situations.
If when the question is asked, the child(ren) is(are) stumped to find an advantage to "last", I have offered why I might choose the last seat in the train - a better view, or an opportunity to learn from others experience thereby having more fun when it is my turn. (I was the last child in an Italian catholic family, so I've mastered being "last". I have a list of advantages a mile long if you want more.)
But really, the gift comes in asking the child.
When we ask instead of tell, the answer always comes.
jb
Maybe an opportunity to explore "pro's" and "con's".
In these situations with children (mine and others), I have discovered a lot about myself and the children by asking "what is the advantage to being first?" And then, "what is the advantage to being last?"
First, it difuses any power-play or competition hanging in the air. Second, it can move us toward "svadyaya" a yoga term for learning about self through looking inward, which can be a helpful tool in moving through challenging social situations.
If when the question is asked, the child(ren) is(are) stumped to find an advantage to "last", I have offered why I might choose the last seat in the train - a better view, or an opportunity to learn from others experience thereby having more fun when it is my turn. (I was the last child in an Italian catholic family, so I've mastered being "last". I have a list of advantages a mile long if you want more.)
But really, the gift comes in asking the child.
When we ask instead of tell, the answer always comes.
jb
--- In [email protected], "emstrength3" <emstrength@...> wrote:
>
> I need suggestions about how to respond to my 6 year old and 4 year old who both often want to go first with whatever they are doing. Several times a day, they are both chiming "Me first! I got it/had it/said it/ got there first!"
>
> I think I unintentionally reinforced this. When one of them says, "I want to sit in that spot," and then the other one says it right after, I often say, "She asked first so she gets to sit there," if there is no other reason the other child should have it. If there is a way to share something or do it together, I try to work that out, but in so many cases there is only one person who can be the first to do something. Even when they are both going to get a turn doing something, they both want to be the one to do it first.
>
> I read a suggestion elsewhere to try out a thing called Kid of the Day. What I read suggested the KOTD getting to do everything the way they wanted for that day and the next day it's would be the other child's turn and so on with the alternations every day. I didn't want to make it about getting *everything* their way, because if there is a way to share or do it together, we can often work that out. But we've been doing it for the last few days just for those situations in which someone goes first. They kids are happy with it so far, but I'm wondering what you all think of the whole idea? Something about it doesn't sit right with me, even though it is limiting the amount of "me first!" I'm hearing.
>
>
> Emily
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Second, it can move us toward "svadyaya" a yoga term for learning about self through looking inward, which can be a helpful tool in moving through challenging social situations.-=-
How is this different from being mindful?
I think helping children think before speaking or acting, and thinking of two options and making a choice is great, and the parents can be doing that too.
-=But really, the gift comes in asking the child.
When we ask instead of tell, the answer always comes.-=-
That sounds pretty, but I don't think it covers the situation of a child feeling he's not getting equal opportunities.
"The answer" suggests there is one anser, but it's good when a family has range of tools and ideas instead of looking for a single one. Situations and factors differ, and kids get older.
"When we ask instead of tell" sets up a dichotomy similar to "parent led / child led."
Making a suggestion is neither asking nor telling.
And in stressful situations, a younger child might agree to lots of things to have peace or to be accommodating when he might really rather negotiate a while longer, or hear some more ideas. The answer can't always come if the child doesn't have answers. And sometimes "the answer" that comes is a politely worded surrender, and the older child, or pushier child, or quickest child "wins" again.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
How is this different from being mindful?
I think helping children think before speaking or acting, and thinking of two options and making a choice is great, and the parents can be doing that too.
-=But really, the gift comes in asking the child.
When we ask instead of tell, the answer always comes.-=-
That sounds pretty, but I don't think it covers the situation of a child feeling he's not getting equal opportunities.
"The answer" suggests there is one anser, but it's good when a family has range of tools and ideas instead of looking for a single one. Situations and factors differ, and kids get older.
"When we ask instead of tell" sets up a dichotomy similar to "parent led / child led."
Making a suggestion is neither asking nor telling.
And in stressful situations, a younger child might agree to lots of things to have peace or to be accommodating when he might really rather negotiate a while longer, or hear some more ideas. The answer can't always come if the child doesn't have answers. And sometimes "the answer" that comes is a politely worded surrender, and the older child, or pushier child, or quickest child "wins" again.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vicky Woods
Ø In these situations with children (mine and others), I have discovered a
lot about myself and the children by asking "what is the advantage to being
first?" And then, "what is the advantage to being last?"
Sounds like a great idea. I wonder if it might also help to play with it I
think I read about this in Playful Parenting start begging to go second
or go last or whatever, or join in with wanting to go first, make a
ridiculous and funny game out of it. It might help diffuse some of the power
or competition driving the whole me first motivation.
._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lot about myself and the children by asking "what is the advantage to being
first?" And then, "what is the advantage to being last?"
Sounds like a great idea. I wonder if it might also help to play with it I
think I read about this in Playful Parenting start begging to go second
or go last or whatever, or join in with wanting to go first, make a
ridiculous and funny game out of it. It might help diffuse some of the power
or competition driving the whole me first motivation.
._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
otherstar
>>>>>And in stressful situations, a younger child might agree to lots of things to have peace or to be accommodating when he might really rather negotiate a while longer, or hear some more ideas. The answer can't always come if the child doesn't have answers. And sometimes "the answer" that comes is a politely worded surrender, and the older child, or pushier child, or quickest child "wins" again. <<<<<One of the things that has really helped us with “me first” is giving ourselves lots and lots of time to do things. Giving ourselves more time to negotiate these situations is immensely helpful. Also, I try to anticipate potential me first situations and ask ahead of time “Who wants to go first?” That way, we have it worked out before we ever get to the door or the car. With the car, we each have our own spots. It worked out that way because of the car seats. Each person’s spot has her stuff in it so that there is no need to argue about who is going to sit where. Sometimes, I will step in and advocate for the child that doesn’t get to go first as much. Yesterday, my 8 year old wanted to go inside first so she asked her little sister, “Is it okay if I go in first this time?” and her little sister said it was fine. I try to help them be mindful of each other and take turns. In order to do that, I have to build in lots of extra time and take things slowly. Me firsts are a lot harder to navigate when you are in a hurry and pressed for time. One of the other things that I have done is do-overs. When leaving, we can take turns being out the door first. Another possibility is encouraging them to hold hands so that they can all be first together. I don’t rely on any one solution but have several options so that I can assess the situation and make suggestions accordingly.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
daisy_soft
**** (I was the last child in an Italian catholic family, so I've mastered being "last". I have a list of advantages a mile long if you want more.)****
I'll bite! -- Because I'm now pretty curious of how you saw so many advanages to being a "last" child... I was a "first" (and I can speak to some disadvantages of that, lol) I can imagine some obvious advantages to being last (or youngest) but not enough to make a mile long list (or even a full page).
I'd like to read your experience list of why last was best in your eyes growing up. That's a fun idea and I might learn to see something in a new way. Thanks!
PS I have to say fast -- I LOVE THIS GROUP!!!!!
: )
Diana
I'll bite! -- Because I'm now pretty curious of how you saw so many advanages to being a "last" child... I was a "first" (and I can speak to some disadvantages of that, lol) I can imagine some obvious advantages to being last (or youngest) but not enough to make a mile long list (or even a full page).
I'd like to read your experience list of why last was best in your eyes growing up. That's a fun idea and I might learn to see something in a new way. Thanks!
PS I have to say fast -- I LOVE THIS GROUP!!!!!
: )
Diana
Meredith
"peanutyogi" <peanutyogi@...> wrote:
Really? When a couple of little kids are allllll excited about something you stop them, make them set aside their joy and enthusiasm, and give them a lesson in first/last? Ouch. That's not much different than saying "no-one gets to be first until you all behave" especially for any child who doesn't do well with that sort of talky lessoning. It's a heartbreaking response to childish enthusiasm.
Only if the students choose to look inward - and if they're trying to find the "right answer" so they can get back to what's really important to them (who gets to sit by the window?) they're not looking inward at all.
This is one of the great fallacies of teaching - that teaching creates learning. It doesn't. Sometimes people will choose to learn from teachers.
This is something my brother wrote on Facebook recently on the subject of reading, but it could just as easily apply to teaching kids to "look inward" (or anything else):
""Often I did "hate to read". The goal in school, was to read x number of pages per day or finish the book and write something about it before I could do something else. That made reading the obstacle to the real goal, "Do something else". It was a chore.
When I found really interesting stuff, I'd piss my teachers off. My 6th grade poetry reading of The Cremation of Sam McGee was less than well received due to subject matter. I ruined lesson plans by doing things like reading ahead and knowing how the story turns out, having memorized The Jabberwocky when the task for the day is unscrambling the jumbled lines, killing an hour long discussion about what does the book tile mean by pointing out Beelzebub is Hebrew for Lord of the Flys, etc. I was a problem whether I was being an underachiever or exceeding expectations. Failed AP English...5 on the AP exam.
It took me a while before I enjoyed reading. That wasn't until I did it for my own reasons instead of merely following a syllabus.""
---Keith Novak
Sometimes asking is useful, but when a child answers "I don't know" or gives you a blank look, that's Not telling you he or she wants a lesson. A lot of the time it means you're asking the wrong question and need to step back, look and listen some more. Sometimes, in the moment when you don't know what to do and your child doesn't either, it's okay to guess and try something and see what happens - that's part of learning, too!
---Meredith
> In these situations with children (mine and others), I have discovered a lot about myself and the children by asking "what is the advantage to being first?" And then, "what is the advantage to being last?"*****************
Really? When a couple of little kids are allllll excited about something you stop them, make them set aside their joy and enthusiasm, and give them a lesson in first/last? Ouch. That's not much different than saying "no-one gets to be first until you all behave" especially for any child who doesn't do well with that sort of talky lessoning. It's a heartbreaking response to childish enthusiasm.
> First, it difuses any power-play or competition hanging in the air.No, it establishes the teacher firmly in the position of power and the lesson as more important than the desires and feelings of children. No-one gets to do Anything until everyone gives the proper responses. And that has never once been shown to diminish competition, ever. It just happens behind the teacher's back or mom's back, and the pecking order is determined with only the skills possessed by very young children: as soon as mom turns her back, you're going down. It doesn't help kids learn to work things out or solve problems - it shows them very, very clearly that the Last person they want to share their interpersonal problems with is the teacher.
>> Second, it can move us toward "svadyaya" a yoga term for learning about self through looking inward****************
Only if the students choose to look inward - and if they're trying to find the "right answer" so they can get back to what's really important to them (who gets to sit by the window?) they're not looking inward at all.
This is one of the great fallacies of teaching - that teaching creates learning. It doesn't. Sometimes people will choose to learn from teachers.
This is something my brother wrote on Facebook recently on the subject of reading, but it could just as easily apply to teaching kids to "look inward" (or anything else):
""Often I did "hate to read". The goal in school, was to read x number of pages per day or finish the book and write something about it before I could do something else. That made reading the obstacle to the real goal, "Do something else". It was a chore.
When I found really interesting stuff, I'd piss my teachers off. My 6th grade poetry reading of The Cremation of Sam McGee was less than well received due to subject matter. I ruined lesson plans by doing things like reading ahead and knowing how the story turns out, having memorized The Jabberwocky when the task for the day is unscrambling the jumbled lines, killing an hour long discussion about what does the book tile mean by pointing out Beelzebub is Hebrew for Lord of the Flys, etc. I was a problem whether I was being an underachiever or exceeding expectations. Failed AP English...5 on the AP exam.
It took me a while before I enjoyed reading. That wasn't until I did it for my own reasons instead of merely following a syllabus.""
---Keith Novak
> But really, the gift comes in asking the child.Communication is important. The biggest mistake adults make in communicating with children is thinking it's about talking - asking or telling. Start sooner and further back: listen, watch, notice patterns and tendencies. Kids communicate in a hundred different ways that don't involve words. One of the advantages of unschooling is that you have time for the quiet, observational parts of communication. You get to learn about your kids without asking or telling.
> When we ask instead of tell, the answer always comes.
Sometimes asking is useful, but when a child answers "I don't know" or gives you a blank look, that's Not telling you he or she wants a lesson. A lot of the time it means you're asking the wrong question and need to step back, look and listen some more. Sometimes, in the moment when you don't know what to do and your child doesn't either, it's okay to guess and try something and see what happens - that's part of learning, too!
---Meredith
vafnord23
My girls are 5 and 7. What I usually do when an issue like this comes up, like who goes first or what movie shall we watch, what restaurant shall we go to, etc. is I remind them of the goal of common preferences, usually by saying "We'll do whatever we all agree on." I frequently don't have to say any more than that. In the past, the eldest girl would frequently yield to the younger, I think because she was quicker to recognize that bickering over details only delayed the activity they were trying start. Now there's much more give and take.
I avoid the word "fair"; I can rarely figure out what people really mean when they use it. There are probably times and places for "taking turns", but "taking turns" can easily become "trading off on serial disappointment". Placing too much emphasis and value on "getting one's own way" can transform even the simplest activities into unpleasant competitions.
I avoid the word "fair"; I can rarely figure out what people really mean when they use it. There are probably times and places for "taking turns", but "taking turns" can easily become "trading off on serial disappointment". Placing too much emphasis and value on "getting one's own way" can transform even the simplest activities into unpleasant competitions.
--- In [email protected], "emstrength3" <emstrength@...> wrote:
>
> I need suggestions about how to respond to my 6 year old and 4 year old who both often want to go first with whatever they are doing. Several times a day, they are both chiming "Me first! I got it/had it/said it/ got there first!"
>
> I think I unintentionally reinforced this. When one of them says, "I want to sit in that spot," and then the other one says it right after, I often say, "She asked first so she gets to sit there," if there is no other reason the other child should have it. If there is a way to share something or do it together, I try to work that out, but in so many cases there is only one person who can be the first to do something. Even when they are both going to get a turn doing something, they both want to be the one to do it first.
>
> I read a suggestion elsewhere to try out a thing called Kid of the Day. What I read suggested the KOTD getting to do everything the way they wanted for that day and the next day it's would be the other child's turn and so on with the alternations every day. I didn't want to make it about getting *everything* their way, because if there is a way to share or do it together, we can often work that out. But we've been doing it for the last few days just for those situations in which someone goes first. They kids are happy with it so far, but I'm wondering what you all think of the whole idea? Something about it doesn't sit right with me, even though it is limiting the amount of "me first!" I'm hearing.
>
>
> Emily
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 10, 2012, at 4:22 AM, vafnord23 wrote:
Common preferences is *a* good strategy for sharing space. It's not the only one. While it makes your life easier to end the bickering quickly, what's more useful for them in the long run is seeing problem solving in action. If peace is always to goal, it can mean needs and wants become secondary. What will be most helpful through out their lives are finding ways they can get what they want AND take others into consideration. It's a complex problem to solve and kids need to see it in action a lot.
That's why that AND is important. It acknowledges that the child's need is important AND something else too. And the goal is to figure out how to get both.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I remind them of the goal of common preferences,But then it's been turned it into a rule, the one solution used for that situation.
> usually by saying "We'll do whatever we all agree on."
Common preferences is *a* good strategy for sharing space. It's not the only one. While it makes your life easier to end the bickering quickly, what's more useful for them in the long run is seeing problem solving in action. If peace is always to goal, it can mean needs and wants become secondary. What will be most helpful through out their lives are finding ways they can get what they want AND take others into consideration. It's a complex problem to solve and kids need to see it in action a lot.
> In the past, the eldest girl would frequently yield to the younger, I thinkThough one thing parents should be aware of is that some kids will concede because they find conflict so disturbing. They would rather give up something they really want if it means avoiding tension.
> because she was quicker to recognize that bickering over details only
> delayed the activity they were trying start.
> I avoid the word "fair"; I can rarely figure out what people really meanI agree. I think a lot of parents enforce fairness when they don't have a clear idea what they mean. Fair often means equal which often isn't fair! Some people need more, some less. Equal's just easy. It's hard for a kid to argue with equal. THey'll have the feeling they're getting the shaft somehow but can't put a finger on it because, well, it's all equal!
> when they use it. There are probably times and places for "taking turns",
> but "taking turns" can easily become "trading off on serial disappointment".
> Placing too much emphasis and value on "getting one's own way"Yes, it sets up people to be adversaries rather than working together.
> can transform even the simplest activities into unpleasant competitions.
That's why that AND is important. It acknowledges that the child's need is important AND something else too. And the goal is to figure out how to get both.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Renee Baribault
Hello everyone,
I have been reading this for years now & never replied. I just wanted to add a little bit of something that was helpful for me
in working with the issue of fairness with my two children 5 & 8. We also have moments where “it’s not fair” comes up.
I tried to remind my children that what is FAIR is that we all get our needs met as best as we can & that often means we don’t get the
exact same turn/treatment/food/experience etc. This will not likely work with the super young ones, but for us it cultivates that
practice of recognizing our individuality and taking care of ourselves. While also recognizing that someone else's needs are often different different then
our own.
One practice we have used also is to take a moment to reflect at the end of the day and ask, “What is one way you took care of yourself today?” AND “How
have you helped someone else today?”
It might also be interesting to see how you do this in your adult life, at the bank, in line at the grocery store, etc. Nothing I say to my
children speaks as loudly as what they see me doing.
~Renee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have been reading this for years now & never replied. I just wanted to add a little bit of something that was helpful for me
in working with the issue of fairness with my two children 5 & 8. We also have moments where “it’s not fair” comes up.
I tried to remind my children that what is FAIR is that we all get our needs met as best as we can & that often means we don’t get the
exact same turn/treatment/food/experience etc. This will not likely work with the super young ones, but for us it cultivates that
practice of recognizing our individuality and taking care of ourselves. While also recognizing that someone else's needs are often different different then
our own.
One practice we have used also is to take a moment to reflect at the end of the day and ask, “What is one way you took care of yourself today?” AND “How
have you helped someone else today?”
It might also be interesting to see how you do this in your adult life, at the bank, in line at the grocery store, etc. Nothing I say to my
children speaks as loudly as what they see me doing.
~Renee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
Some introverts will give in to avoid discussion - and then feel like their desires and values are unimportant to the rest of the family.
---Meredith
>> Though one thing parents should be aware of is that some kids will concede because they find conflict so disturbing. They would rather give up something they really want if it means avoiding tension.**************
Some introverts will give in to avoid discussion - and then feel like their desires and values are unimportant to the rest of the family.
---Meredith