the experience of deschooling
lisajceledon
(I am new to this list - my children are very young - 2.5 yrs and almost 10 months)
I've been browsing through past posts trying to find insights about the deschooling process. I've also read through what Sandra has on her website about it.
I am mostly wondering, currently, about what deschooling was like for other parents - and if there are others who found the process to be painful (mixed in with the good - which I've been reading a lot about on various blogs). I'd be very gratefully for what anyone has to share on the subject, as I am finding this process to be pretty difficult and painful (and wonderful).
Thank you
Lisa C
I've been browsing through past posts trying to find insights about the deschooling process. I've also read through what Sandra has on her website about it.
I am mostly wondering, currently, about what deschooling was like for other parents - and if there are others who found the process to be painful (mixed in with the good - which I've been reading a lot about on various blogs). I'd be very gratefully for what anyone has to share on the subject, as I am finding this process to be pretty difficult and painful (and wonderful).
Thank you
Lisa C
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 18, 2012, at 6:12 AM, lisajceledon wrote:
And harder still if, from upbringing or personality, someone feels guilt or shame at being "unproductive."
Free learning lacks direction. Or lacks what most people define as direction, as in headed towards a goal.
If someone can redefine direction as following interests, redefine purpose as joy, delight and interest, redefine your role as providing a rich environment to explore what interests them in and discover new interests in, it can be much smoother. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am mostly wondering, currently, about what deschooling was like for other parentsI think it totally depends how attached someone is to getting feedback that learning is happening. If someone's kids are happily exploring and she sees "not progressing", "doing nothing", "just playing" deschooling will be much longer and harder.
And harder still if, from upbringing or personality, someone feels guilt or shame at being "unproductive."
Free learning lacks direction. Or lacks what most people define as direction, as in headed towards a goal.
If someone can redefine direction as following interests, redefine purpose as joy, delight and interest, redefine your role as providing a rich environment to explore what interests them in and discover new interests in, it can be much smoother. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
> > ==I am mostly wondering, currently, about what deschooling was like for other parents==It wasn't difficult or painful for me, for the most part. I've never been one who was too concerned with what others thought. I don't need much feedback about what I'm doing. I really couldn't care less if people I know go home and talk about how my kids are neglected because they don't do anything but watch TV and play video games all day. Those people have no idea what our lives are really like. They are also the same people who comment on how smart and interesting and engaging my children are until they learn that we don't do school.
>
> I think it totally depends how attached someone is to getting feedback that learning is happening. If someone's kids are happily exploring and she sees "not progressing", "doing nothing", "just playing" deschooling will be much longer and harder.
>
> And harder still if, from upbringing or personality, someone feels guilt or shame at being "unproductive."
>
I never cared much if my babies were following developmental guidelines. I knew they were fine and figured I'd know if something was off. I laugh when people ask how many words the baby has. I don't know. It never occurred to me to record and count that.
I wasn't raised with any kind of guilt or shame for being "lazy". I think my family was pretty strange in that respect. I get quite confused when friends talk about some obligation their families are putting on them that's completely unreasonable, like some with a newborn and 2 other young children and a husband who's deployed who is still expected to drive 2 states away with said children on her own to visit family but the family without kids or at least with 2 adults won't visit her. My response is, just don't do it but my friend can't do that. I really don't get that.
I hated school. I have never been a joiner. I've always been a bit of a rebel. I think all of that made deschooling relatively easy for me. I never wanted what everyone else told me was good for me so it was easy to completely let go of it all.
Alysia
(no author)
When you decide what do to with and for and to your children in any moment, you might think of what was done in a similar situatiln when you were little. Some of those memories will be better than others. Some might be painful.
A little occasional embarrassment or regret is probably necessary.
So much frustration and indignation that you can't be a present, attentive mom is too much.
Sandra
A little occasional embarrassment or regret is probably necessary.
So much frustration and indignation that you can't be a present, attentive mom is too much.
Sandra
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
""I wasn't raised with any kind of guilt or shame for being "lazy" ""
This reminded me of what I heard yesterday from a mom at a birthday party.
Her partner was holding a very sleep 2 week old and they were complaining that he slept a lot.
Then she said he was lazy!! Yep. The mother said that a 2 week old tiny little baby was lazy.
I was horrified.
I do not know this people so I said "Babies are not lazy. They are saving their energy for growing. " and I walked away.
I guess the deschooling experience will depend in the person's life experience and personality.
For me it has not been hard or painful.
It has been interesting and I am learning from it!
But I know for some it can be much harder.
Maybe was because my parents , who were not perfect, would never call a baby lazy.
They were loving and accepting. They gave us a lot of choices and supported us the best they could. They were pretty great in many things and even if they did things that I would not do , they never called us lazy or anything like that.
And this is the second time this week as another couple was over at the farm visiting with 2 little girls and they said that the youngest ( 3 years old) was slow, in slow in learning.
Very sad.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This reminded me of what I heard yesterday from a mom at a birthday party.
Her partner was holding a very sleep 2 week old and they were complaining that he slept a lot.
Then she said he was lazy!! Yep. The mother said that a 2 week old tiny little baby was lazy.
I was horrified.
I do not know this people so I said "Babies are not lazy. They are saving their energy for growing. " and I walked away.
I guess the deschooling experience will depend in the person's life experience and personality.
For me it has not been hard or painful.
It has been interesting and I am learning from it!
But I know for some it can be much harder.
Maybe was because my parents , who were not perfect, would never call a baby lazy.
They were loving and accepting. They gave us a lot of choices and supported us the best they could. They were pretty great in many things and even if they did things that I would not do , they never called us lazy or anything like that.
And this is the second time this week as another couple was over at the farm visiting with 2 little girls and they said that the youngest ( 3 years old) was slow, in slow in learning.
Very sad.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandralynndodd
If the deschooling element you're thinking about is reviewing your own childhood
and schooling, do it just a bit at a time. Don't try to analyze twelve to
twenty years of your life all in one season, at all.
(That's what I meant to say. :-)
Sandra
and schooling, do it just a bit at a time. Don't try to analyze twelve to
twenty years of your life all in one season, at all.
(That's what I meant to say. :-)
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
I *was* called lazy, and though my mom napped nearly every day, and sometimes I would get spanked if I was the one she heard when she woke up (and people DO wake up from naps, and kids who are left to take care fo themselves while a mom is asleep WILL make noise), I was still made to feel wrong if I wanted to stay up late, and lazy if I didn't want to wake up the second my mom rudely turned my light on and sayd "get up."
I still feel guilty if I take a nap if I'm not sick.
Keith is sweet and tells me to just sleep when I want to sleep, and not to feel guilty.
The evidence in my liife doesn't point toward "lazy," but I still feel guilty because I worked on web pages instead of cleaning bathrooms, or that I sewed costumes instead of making bread, or whatever it is. I try to reason with myself. :-)
Those things didn't come from school, but they affected school, and vice versa. In college, I worried if I was having fun instead of "working."
Sandra
I still feel guilty if I take a nap if I'm not sick.
Keith is sweet and tells me to just sleep when I want to sleep, and not to feel guilty.
The evidence in my liife doesn't point toward "lazy," but I still feel guilty because I worked on web pages instead of cleaning bathrooms, or that I sewed costumes instead of making bread, or whatever it is. I try to reason with myself. :-)
Those things didn't come from school, but they affected school, and vice versa. In college, I worried if I was having fun instead of "working."
Sandra
Lisa Celedon
<<When you decide what do to with and for and to your children in any moment, you might think of what was done in a similar situatiln when you were little. >>
I think this is what I am experiencing.
I get so sad and frustrated and riddled with guilt when I've had more "bad moments" in a day, falling way short of how I want to be with my son.
When I can reflect on where my reactions to him come from- bringing up many painful childhood memories (neglect and abuse)-- When I am most aware of and in touch with where my stifling/dismissive/angry reactions come from, I tend to have less "bad moments." As if being present with my past helps me be more present with, well, the present. (ultimately I'd like to get *out* of the past altogether).
But I think that sometimes its too painful to get in touch with, so I don't, and just react. And then regret it, and feel guilty, and then stressed an overwhelmed, and then the day tends to domino into more bad moments than good.
I think the hardest part is not embracing the ideology of unschooling- but weeding out and routing around my impulsive, hard-wired reactions so that we can practice it freely. And I get really hard on myself when I fall short. But I have a feeling that's counter-productive.
I know things will get easier with practice. Lately I've been able to find outlets for working out and reflecting on my own childhood, away from my children, and that has been helpful as well.
But there really is a lot of pain and sadness (and guilt) involved in watching yourself treat your child with so much less dignity and respect than they deserve. Each time it happens is an opportunity to reflect and grow and do better next time- and I know that times of transition can be painful and difficult. I just wish none of this had to be at my son's expense. I hate that he has to suffer through my learning curve.
Lisa C
Sent from my iPhone
I think this is what I am experiencing.
I get so sad and frustrated and riddled with guilt when I've had more "bad moments" in a day, falling way short of how I want to be with my son.
When I can reflect on where my reactions to him come from- bringing up many painful childhood memories (neglect and abuse)-- When I am most aware of and in touch with where my stifling/dismissive/angry reactions come from, I tend to have less "bad moments." As if being present with my past helps me be more present with, well, the present. (ultimately I'd like to get *out* of the past altogether).
But I think that sometimes its too painful to get in touch with, so I don't, and just react. And then regret it, and feel guilty, and then stressed an overwhelmed, and then the day tends to domino into more bad moments than good.
I think the hardest part is not embracing the ideology of unschooling- but weeding out and routing around my impulsive, hard-wired reactions so that we can practice it freely. And I get really hard on myself when I fall short. But I have a feeling that's counter-productive.
I know things will get easier with practice. Lately I've been able to find outlets for working out and reflecting on my own childhood, away from my children, and that has been helpful as well.
But there really is a lot of pain and sadness (and guilt) involved in watching yourself treat your child with so much less dignity and respect than they deserve. Each time it happens is an opportunity to reflect and grow and do better next time- and I know that times of transition can be painful and difficult. I just wish none of this had to be at my son's expense. I hate that he has to suffer through my learning curve.
Lisa C
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 19, 2012, at 6:39 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> When you decide what do to with and for and to your children in any moment, you might think of what was done in a similar situatiln when you were little. Some of those memories will be better than others. Some might be painful.
>
> A little occasional embarrassment or regret is probably necessary.
> So much frustration and indignation that you can't be a present, attentive mom is too much.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Claire
Lisa, I've been on this wonderful, challenging unschooling path for 5 years now, and when I look back on some of the ways I treated my older daughter when she was 2 and 3 years old, I can hardly believe that was me. I never hit her, but I yelled, shut her in the hallway, enforced my will ... I had so much anger in me. The process of working through that anger was painful. It was painful to admit I'd been hurting my own precious vulnerable child.
This path ain't easy, but ... my relationship now with both my girls is incredibly loving and close. I still feel frustrations, but I never picture myself slapping their faces like I used to do - in fact the thought horrifies me. That awful anger has faded so much. Instead I've found reserves of patience and tenacity I didn't know I had! It is so clear to me now that the hard work of deschooling pays dividends on many levels - on a personal level, in my relationship with my children and partner, and more broadly in how I perceive and operate in the world. Using the principles of unschooling as discussed here, we can make childhood magical for our kids.
Claire
This path ain't easy, but ... my relationship now with both my girls is incredibly loving and close. I still feel frustrations, but I never picture myself slapping their faces like I used to do - in fact the thought horrifies me. That awful anger has faded so much. Instead I've found reserves of patience and tenacity I didn't know I had! It is so clear to me now that the hard work of deschooling pays dividends on many levels - on a personal level, in my relationship with my children and partner, and more broadly in how I perceive and operate in the world. Using the principles of unschooling as discussed here, we can make childhood magical for our kids.
Claire
D. Regan
On 20/08/2012, at 12:24 PM, Lisa Celedon wrote:
Choosing to spend more of your time engaging with him and his interests will lead to more peace in both your lives. Perhaps you can find ways to move in that direction - less time spent on housework or the computer? more household help...? Your son's childhood won't wait while you deschool, but you can make your days now more wonderful by being there to help him more.
:)
Debbie.
> I get so sad and frustrated and riddled with guilt when I've had more "bad moments" in a day, falling way short of how I want to be with my son.You mention your "reactions" several times. Perhaps if you were to spend more of your time engaged with your son, there would be less need for "reacting". You would be interacting with him, and more able to assist him in enjoying his world. You would be in a better position to get to know him and what he loves, to be able to meet his needs and desires, to foresee any issues (like hunger, tiredness, boredom, frustration etc) that may arise.
>
> When I can reflect on where my reactions to him come from- bringing up many painful childhood memories (neglect and abuse)-- When I am most aware of and in touch with where my stifling/dismissive/angry reactions come from, I tend to have less "bad moments." As if being present with my past helps me be more present with, well, the present. (ultimately I'd like to get *out* of the past altogether).
>
> But I think that sometimes its too painful to get in touch with, so I don't, and just react. And then regret it, and feel guilty, and then stressed an overwhelmed, and then the day tends to domino into more bad moments than good.
>
> I think the hardest part is not embracing the ideology of unschooling- but weeding out and routing around my impulsive, hard-wired reactions so that we can practice it freely. And I get really hard on myself when I fall short. But I have a feeling that's counter-productive.
>
> I know things will get easier with practice. Lately I've been able to find outlets for working out and reflecting on my own childhood, away from my children, and that has been helpful as well.
>
> But there really is a lot of pain and sadness (and guilt) involved in watching yourself treat your child with so much less dignity and respect than they deserve. Each time it happens is an opportunity to reflect and grow and do better next time- and I know that times of transition can be painful and difficult. I just wish none of this had to be at my son's expense. I hate that he has to suffer through my learning curve.
Choosing to spend more of your time engaging with him and his interests will lead to more peace in both your lives. Perhaps you can find ways to move in that direction - less time spent on housework or the computer? more household help...? Your son's childhood won't wait while you deschool, but you can make your days now more wonderful by being there to help him more.
:)
Debbie.
Sandra Dodd
-=-This path ain't easy, but ... my relationship now with both my girls is incredibly loving and close. I still feel frustrations, but I never picture myself slapping their faces like I used to do - in fact the thought horrifies me. That awful anger has faded so much. Instead I've found reserves of patience and tenacity I didn't know I had! It is so clear to me now that the hard work of deschooling pays dividends on many levels - on a personal level, in my relationship with my children and partner, and more broadly in how I perceive and operate in the world. Using the principles of unschooling as discussed here, we can make childhood magical for our kids.-=-
Claire, that's beautiful, and I thought it should be read again by everyone. Though I bet some people read it twice, as I did, just because it was good.
Lisa wrote: -=-As if being present with my past helps me be more present with, well, the present. (ultimately I'd like to get *out* of the past altogether).-=-
I think being present with yourself is being more present all the time.
Don't feel like you're living in the past. Try to see it as using all the knowlege you have. Some knowledge is the memory of how it feels to be treated dismissively, of feeling small, and then using that to be more compassionate and generous with your child.
-=-But I think that sometimes its too painful to get in touch with, so I don't, and just react. And then regret it, and feel guilty, and then stressed an overwhelmed, and then the day tends to domino into more bad moments than good. -=-
Don't think of it as "getting in touch" then. That sounds distant and confusing.
Treat your child the way you wish people had treated you.
Do it as many times as you can, as generously as you can.
-=-I think the hardest part is not embracing the ideology of unschooling- but weeding out and routing around my impulsive, hard-wired reactions so that we can practice it freely. And I get really hard on myself when I fall short. But I have a feeling that's counter-productive.-=-
That's a LOT of words, and words between you and your thoughts, and between you and your actions. You don't need to embrace any ideology. You need to make decisions.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
-=-I know things will get easier with practice.-=-
Whose children are you going to practice on?
Things get better from doing them, mindfully.
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
-=-But there really is a lot of pain and sadness (and guilt) involved in watching yourself treat your child with so much less dignity and respect than they deserve.-=-
I would be wary of using "deserve." It's loaded with politics and baggage.
When you give your children respect, do it because you want to be a respectful person, not because they "deserve it." GIVE it to them as a gift, not as an obligation. You don't have to be nice to them. Do it because you WANT TO.
-=-I know that times of transition can be painful and difficult. I just wish none of this had to be at my son's expense. I hate that he has to suffer through my learning curve.-=-
At your son's "expense"?
If you use phrases that way, idioms, you're not thinking directly. How much do you think it will cost him for you to become a better mom? What's the alternative? Will you send him the bill? Will you send yourself the bill? Too much counting and measuring.
Just be. Be thoughtful. Be attentive.
http://sandradodd.com/be
Try to be without so many thoughts and long phrases.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Claire, that's beautiful, and I thought it should be read again by everyone. Though I bet some people read it twice, as I did, just because it was good.
Lisa wrote: -=-As if being present with my past helps me be more present with, well, the present. (ultimately I'd like to get *out* of the past altogether).-=-
I think being present with yourself is being more present all the time.
Don't feel like you're living in the past. Try to see it as using all the knowlege you have. Some knowledge is the memory of how it feels to be treated dismissively, of feeling small, and then using that to be more compassionate and generous with your child.
-=-But I think that sometimes its too painful to get in touch with, so I don't, and just react. And then regret it, and feel guilty, and then stressed an overwhelmed, and then the day tends to domino into more bad moments than good. -=-
Don't think of it as "getting in touch" then. That sounds distant and confusing.
Treat your child the way you wish people had treated you.
Do it as many times as you can, as generously as you can.
-=-I think the hardest part is not embracing the ideology of unschooling- but weeding out and routing around my impulsive, hard-wired reactions so that we can practice it freely. And I get really hard on myself when I fall short. But I have a feeling that's counter-productive.-=-
That's a LOT of words, and words between you and your thoughts, and between you and your actions. You don't need to embrace any ideology. You need to make decisions.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
-=-I know things will get easier with practice.-=-
Whose children are you going to practice on?
Things get better from doing them, mindfully.
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
-=-But there really is a lot of pain and sadness (and guilt) involved in watching yourself treat your child with so much less dignity and respect than they deserve.-=-
I would be wary of using "deserve." It's loaded with politics and baggage.
When you give your children respect, do it because you want to be a respectful person, not because they "deserve it." GIVE it to them as a gift, not as an obligation. You don't have to be nice to them. Do it because you WANT TO.
-=-I know that times of transition can be painful and difficult. I just wish none of this had to be at my son's expense. I hate that he has to suffer through my learning curve.-=-
At your son's "expense"?
If you use phrases that way, idioms, you're not thinking directly. How much do you think it will cost him for you to become a better mom? What's the alternative? Will you send him the bill? Will you send yourself the bill? Too much counting and measuring.
Just be. Be thoughtful. Be attentive.
http://sandradodd.com/be
Try to be without so many thoughts and long phrases.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Choosing to spend more of your time engaging with him and his interests will lead to more peace in both your lives. Perhaps you can find ways to move in that direction - less time spent on housework or the computer? more household help...? Your son's childhood won't wait while you deschool, but you can make your days now more wonderful by being there to help him more.-=-
Yes, and it will be healing to you each time you're sweet to him.
Seeing the ways in which he learns naturally will become part of your deschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, and it will be healing to you each time you're sweet to him.
Seeing the ways in which he learns naturally will become part of your deschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 19, 2012, at 10:24 PM, Lisa Celedon wrote:
But maybe you don't need to dig. You may not need the specifics of why you have the feelings you do or react as you do. Maybe you just need to accept that your reaction are coming from the choices your parents made.
And *their* choices came from what their parents did to them. They didn't have healthy models. They didn't know how to give because their buckets had never been full. They spent their energy trying to fill their own buckets, with little to give to small humans who were draining their buckets further.They were trying to meet their own long denied needs with tools that worked for selfish survival, not building relationships.
You have the opportunity to fill your bucket without taking from your daughter. Even better is finding ways to make giving to your daughter a way of filling your own bucket.
Give to the child you were while giving to your daughter. Make the choices you wished your parents had made in the same situations when they parented you.
Joyce
> When I can reflect on where my reactions to him come from-If it's helping you grow and do better by digging into your memories I wouldn't discourage you!
> bringing up many painful childhood memories (neglect and abuse)--
> When I am most aware of and in touch with where my
> stifling/dismissive/angry reactions come from, I tend to have less "bad moments."
But maybe you don't need to dig. You may not need the specifics of why you have the feelings you do or react as you do. Maybe you just need to accept that your reaction are coming from the choices your parents made.
And *their* choices came from what their parents did to them. They didn't have healthy models. They didn't know how to give because their buckets had never been full. They spent their energy trying to fill their own buckets, with little to give to small humans who were draining their buckets further.They were trying to meet their own long denied needs with tools that worked for selfish survival, not building relationships.
You have the opportunity to fill your bucket without taking from your daughter. Even better is finding ways to make giving to your daughter a way of filling your own bucket.
Give to the child you were while giving to your daughter. Make the choices you wished your parents had made in the same situations when they parented you.
Joyce
Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp
-=- Make the choices you wished your parents had made in the same situations when they parented you. -=-
When you make those better choices, you're most likely giving your children a better childhood than you had. You might even be helping your parents become better parents and grandparents while they observe you interacting with your children and use tools that they may never have thought of using.
You become a critical part of changing the culture of your family - breaking hurtful patterns and creating relationship nurturing patterns.
I sometimes hear from moms with young children that they wish they were doing more to change the world. I think parents that stretch and grow and learn better ways, are doing that in spades. You are not only giving your children a better life, but other people around you can benefit from seeing examples of better choices. Your future descendants benefit as those better ways become part of your family culture.
Rippy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When you make those better choices, you're most likely giving your children a better childhood than you had. You might even be helping your parents become better parents and grandparents while they observe you interacting with your children and use tools that they may never have thought of using.
You become a critical part of changing the culture of your family - breaking hurtful patterns and creating relationship nurturing patterns.
I sometimes hear from moms with young children that they wish they were doing more to change the world. I think parents that stretch and grow and learn better ways, are doing that in spades. You are not only giving your children a better life, but other people around you can benefit from seeing examples of better choices. Your future descendants benefit as those better ways become part of your family culture.
Rippy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]