Help with Amounts of Food
athenagwis2
We are fairly new to unschooling and the whole-life aspect of it. We are doing really well, but one issue I need help with is how much food my son is eating. The variety of food is, and always has been, fine. He will eat just as much candy and chips as fruits and vegetables. He will try anything new, and really the only thing he hates is lettuce. Pre-unschooling we had restrictions on the amount of food my son ate, not because of weight or anything, but because of budget. Since we have been saying yes more when he asks for more food, he has been eating more. Unfortunately we have special diet restrictions due to various allergies in the family, so coupons and store brands don't always work for us. But we, again, eat a variety of healthy, and not-so-healthy foods. Anything he wants.
As a for instance, we went grocery shopping and my son picked up 2 bags of Family size Salt and Vinegar on Friday, and he is the only one that eats them, and they are both gone by Sunday night (3 days). Another is lemons, I bought 8 on Friday and they will all be gone and eaten by Monday (4 days). I have tried to talk to him about the fact that I am only going grocery shopping on Fridays, and I am picking up more than before, but we can't go shopping every other day for new snacks. If he eats it all it's going to be gone for the rest of the week.
This month my food bill was $900 for 3 people, not to mention $350 for eating out. Since we are fairly new to saying yes more, should I be buying more and just hope he finds his own balance or is there a good way to talk to him about our budget concerns and food?
Thank you for any help you can provide on any of this.
Rachel
As a for instance, we went grocery shopping and my son picked up 2 bags of Family size Salt and Vinegar on Friday, and he is the only one that eats them, and they are both gone by Sunday night (3 days). Another is lemons, I bought 8 on Friday and they will all be gone and eaten by Monday (4 days). I have tried to talk to him about the fact that I am only going grocery shopping on Fridays, and I am picking up more than before, but we can't go shopping every other day for new snacks. If he eats it all it's going to be gone for the rest of the week.
This month my food bill was $900 for 3 people, not to mention $350 for eating out. Since we are fairly new to saying yes more, should I be buying more and just hope he finds his own balance or is there a good way to talk to him about our budget concerns and food?
Thank you for any help you can provide on any of this.
Rachel
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 27, 2012, at 7:42 AM, athenagwis2 wrote:
"Tried to talk" as in expecting him to then change his choices to what you believe is sensible.
Don't "try to talk". Help. Give him information so he's making an informed choice when he does choose. And then let him make the choice he wants.
But before that, ask him, at a separate time when he's not reaching for the chips, what he'd like, what he wants. And talk about different ways to go about that. Try different things.
(You can also make potato chips. Do it with him. Find lots of recipes on line. Don't make them and offer them as a substitute. Make them with him so he can decide if they're a good substitute.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I have tried to talk to him about the fact that I am only going grocery shopping on FridaysReal quickly as I leave ... Hopefully others will have some practical suggestions ....
"Tried to talk" as in expecting him to then change his choices to what you believe is sensible.
Don't "try to talk". Help. Give him information so he's making an informed choice when he does choose. And then let him make the choice he wants.
But before that, ask him, at a separate time when he's not reaching for the chips, what he'd like, what he wants. And talk about different ways to go about that. Try different things.
(You can also make potato chips. Do it with him. Find lots of recipes on line. Don't make them and offer them as a substitute. Make them with him so he can decide if they're a good substitute.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"athenagwis2" <athenagwis@...> wrote:
Look for ways to buy more in bulk quantities to manage costs. That may mean taking time to re-package things so they don't go stale, but re-packaging can also be a chance to create "servings" - not as a way to limit how much he eats so much as to give him a natural stopping point. He can still go get another serving, but doing so also gives him the chance to decide more actively if he wants more. It's easy to make a passive choice and finish (finish the bowl of popcorn or plate of melon or whatever) when it's right there.
Think really hard before you have a conversation about money and food. Do you really Want to convey "you're not worth feeding"? If you want to talk about food and budgets, for now do it obliquely - talk about menu planning, buying in bulk, stocking up so he doesn't run out so quickly. Ask for his input in that regard - what are some current favorites? What sorts of things would he rather always have on hand and what does he like to have off and on?
---Meredith
>Since we have been saying yes more when he asks for more food, he has been eating more.***************
Look for ways to buy more in bulk quantities to manage costs. That may mean taking time to re-package things so they don't go stale, but re-packaging can also be a chance to create "servings" - not as a way to limit how much he eats so much as to give him a natural stopping point. He can still go get another serving, but doing so also gives him the chance to decide more actively if he wants more. It's easy to make a passive choice and finish (finish the bowl of popcorn or plate of melon or whatever) when it's right there.
>>should I be buying more and just hope he finds his own balance or is there a good way to talk to him about our budget concerns and food?**************
Think really hard before you have a conversation about money and food. Do you really Want to convey "you're not worth feeding"? If you want to talk about food and budgets, for now do it obliquely - talk about menu planning, buying in bulk, stocking up so he doesn't run out so quickly. Ask for his input in that regard - what are some current favorites? What sorts of things would he rather always have on hand and what does he like to have off and on?
---Meredith
dezignarob
=== As a for instance, we went grocery shopping and my son picked up 2 bags of Family size Salt and Vinegar on Friday, and he is the only one that eats them, and they are both gone by Sunday night (3 days). Another is lemons, I bought 8 on Friday and they will all be gone and eaten by Monday (4 days). ====
My daughter loves chips too! They are her favorite thing to eat as snacks. She picks and chooses different flavors, tries new kinds, and pretty much always returns to a few specific flavors that she loves most - which are Hawaiian Barbecue and Maui Onion, and BBQ Pop chips.
Jayn also likes to have large bags. When she is done I roll the tops and clip them till next time, which will be very soon. She also likes turkey jerky too, that she can pull from the bag and then reseal. She's a grazer in that she eats small quantities often, and she often loves monkey platters which she calls "snack trays" of mixed foods in small quantities, while at meals she still tends to prefer predominantly one thing, and just a nibble of the other ingredients of the meal. After all these years she still carbo loads just before a growth spurt. Did I mention that she is now taller than me?
We are also on a tight food budget for three people. I keep track of expenses and plan budgets using Mint.com.
However unlike many other people with budgets, buying in bulk doesn't tend to work for us, mostly because we don't have room for long term storage, plus Jayn and James tend to go on very short jags around particular foods, but really like a lot of variety.
I never know exactly when they will both be tired of that particular cereal or another pasta sauce or whatever it is. Alas for the big batch of yummy home made crock pot baked beans I made that languished after only a few servings, even though they did like it. One day I will have the space for a big freezer, and then bulk buying and prep here I come! For us now bulk buying almost always means excess waste.
But there are a few things that I will buy and keep always, to the limit of our tiny kitchen space, our particular staples. These include mayonnaise, chicken breasts (frozen), salad fixings, bananas, apples, milk, pasta and various tomato sauces, teriyaki, bacon, frozen corn, onions, and Marsala (for sauces). And chips. Jayn generally chooses her own.
=== I have tried to talk to him about the fact that I am only going grocery shopping on Fridays, and I am picking up more than before, but we can't go shopping every other day for new snacks. If he eats it all it's going to be gone for the rest of the week. ====
What I have found important even on a budget is creating the sense of abundance. When Jayn finds some new taste sensation, she will want to have lots of it, often to the exclusion of other foods. I buy as much as she wants (as we can afford) - packages she finishes to the end fast - then after a while I find myself with a half eaten pack of whatever sitting around until it goes stale.
However while chips, which can be relatively expensive per ounce compared to some foods, continue to be such an important part of Jayn's happiness, I find I do go out to the store just for more chips other than my main shopping day, or I stop on the way home from other adventures. It may be that once a week is too intermittent for you - although that need not mean more expense if you have a list and a budget plan.
Another part of helping Jayn feel abundant is large servings. She has always wanted more in her bowl, or on her plate, or more in the pot leftover, more available to her than she will finish. Luckily I like leftovers, and I often plan my own meals (tomorrow's lunch or bubble and squeak breakfast) around the certain knowledge that there will be leftovers.
Another trick I use to keep our pantry relatively full is to keep one in use (open and in the fridge) and one on the shelf - in the cupboard (or freezer). As soon as I open the one in the cupboard, that item goes on to the shopping list hanging on the side of the fridge. It used to be that Mayo was the key item. When that went on the list it was time to go shopping. Now it tends to be bacon.
=== This month my food bill was $900 for 3 people, not to mention $350 for eating out. Since we are fairly new to saying yes more, should I be buying more and just hope he finds his own balance or is there a good way to talk to him about our budget concerns and food? ===
Either I missed it, or you didn't say - how old is your son?
Jayn is 12. We have only recently - in the last 2 years become comparatively poor. If only we had been living as frugally and mindfully (of expenses) before we might never had gotten into this situation - although being without a regular income didn't help either. Now we are able to predict our income very clearly. But it has meant a much more present ongoing conversation about money and what is affordable, and how long it might take to afford things.
Mint.com is really cool because it is very visual. You can look at graphs and pie charts of expenses in categories you define. It can be linked automatically to your bank accounts. Helping set up specific categories even including "Chips" under "Food and Dining" along with "Groceries" might be fun for both of you. You can also set long term savings goals (hah!) and plot out setting aside portions of bills that come at unusual intervals (eg Water and power is every other month).
I have noticed Jayn starting to willingly reduce her asking for treats, ask for fewer toys, and be willing to wait patiently until I check the budget at the end of the month for extras. Part of our budgeting is acknowledging what is terribly important to her. Her WOW subscription payment is a permanent line item in the budget.
She also considers which chips to buy, weighs the pleasure of one kind over another, and we are doing pretty well by saving on most of our other basic items, and reducing our fast food, to have enough to buy plenty of her favorite thing.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
My daughter loves chips too! They are her favorite thing to eat as snacks. She picks and chooses different flavors, tries new kinds, and pretty much always returns to a few specific flavors that she loves most - which are Hawaiian Barbecue and Maui Onion, and BBQ Pop chips.
Jayn also likes to have large bags. When she is done I roll the tops and clip them till next time, which will be very soon. She also likes turkey jerky too, that she can pull from the bag and then reseal. She's a grazer in that she eats small quantities often, and she often loves monkey platters which she calls "snack trays" of mixed foods in small quantities, while at meals she still tends to prefer predominantly one thing, and just a nibble of the other ingredients of the meal. After all these years she still carbo loads just before a growth spurt. Did I mention that she is now taller than me?
We are also on a tight food budget for three people. I keep track of expenses and plan budgets using Mint.com.
However unlike many other people with budgets, buying in bulk doesn't tend to work for us, mostly because we don't have room for long term storage, plus Jayn and James tend to go on very short jags around particular foods, but really like a lot of variety.
I never know exactly when they will both be tired of that particular cereal or another pasta sauce or whatever it is. Alas for the big batch of yummy home made crock pot baked beans I made that languished after only a few servings, even though they did like it. One day I will have the space for a big freezer, and then bulk buying and prep here I come! For us now bulk buying almost always means excess waste.
But there are a few things that I will buy and keep always, to the limit of our tiny kitchen space, our particular staples. These include mayonnaise, chicken breasts (frozen), salad fixings, bananas, apples, milk, pasta and various tomato sauces, teriyaki, bacon, frozen corn, onions, and Marsala (for sauces). And chips. Jayn generally chooses her own.
=== I have tried to talk to him about the fact that I am only going grocery shopping on Fridays, and I am picking up more than before, but we can't go shopping every other day for new snacks. If he eats it all it's going to be gone for the rest of the week. ====
What I have found important even on a budget is creating the sense of abundance. When Jayn finds some new taste sensation, she will want to have lots of it, often to the exclusion of other foods. I buy as much as she wants (as we can afford) - packages she finishes to the end fast - then after a while I find myself with a half eaten pack of whatever sitting around until it goes stale.
However while chips, which can be relatively expensive per ounce compared to some foods, continue to be such an important part of Jayn's happiness, I find I do go out to the store just for more chips other than my main shopping day, or I stop on the way home from other adventures. It may be that once a week is too intermittent for you - although that need not mean more expense if you have a list and a budget plan.
Another part of helping Jayn feel abundant is large servings. She has always wanted more in her bowl, or on her plate, or more in the pot leftover, more available to her than she will finish. Luckily I like leftovers, and I often plan my own meals (tomorrow's lunch or bubble and squeak breakfast) around the certain knowledge that there will be leftovers.
Another trick I use to keep our pantry relatively full is to keep one in use (open and in the fridge) and one on the shelf - in the cupboard (or freezer). As soon as I open the one in the cupboard, that item goes on to the shopping list hanging on the side of the fridge. It used to be that Mayo was the key item. When that went on the list it was time to go shopping. Now it tends to be bacon.
=== This month my food bill was $900 for 3 people, not to mention $350 for eating out. Since we are fairly new to saying yes more, should I be buying more and just hope he finds his own balance or is there a good way to talk to him about our budget concerns and food? ===
Either I missed it, or you didn't say - how old is your son?
Jayn is 12. We have only recently - in the last 2 years become comparatively poor. If only we had been living as frugally and mindfully (of expenses) before we might never had gotten into this situation - although being without a regular income didn't help either. Now we are able to predict our income very clearly. But it has meant a much more present ongoing conversation about money and what is affordable, and how long it might take to afford things.
Mint.com is really cool because it is very visual. You can look at graphs and pie charts of expenses in categories you define. It can be linked automatically to your bank accounts. Helping set up specific categories even including "Chips" under "Food and Dining" along with "Groceries" might be fun for both of you. You can also set long term savings goals (hah!) and plot out setting aside portions of bills that come at unusual intervals (eg Water and power is every other month).
I have noticed Jayn starting to willingly reduce her asking for treats, ask for fewer toys, and be willing to wait patiently until I check the budget at the end of the month for extras. Part of our budgeting is acknowledging what is terribly important to her. Her WOW subscription payment is a permanent line item in the budget.
She also considers which chips to buy, weighs the pleasure of one kind over another, and we are doing pretty well by saving on most of our other basic items, and reducing our fast food, to have enough to buy plenty of her favorite thing.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
athenagwis2
===Do you really Want to convey "you're not worth feeding"?===
Meredith -- Of course I would never want to make my son feel that way, but I am wondering if there is a way to get his needs met while still keeping the budget in mind. I also feel hesitant to completely ignore (or beat around the bush about) the fact that there is a budget as it could possibly give the impression that we can buy whatever, whenever. Hubby and I worked for years and years to be where we are now with our budget, and I am hoping this is not something my son will have to learn the hard way. I am hoping he can learn it by seeing hubby and I keep the budget in mind when we are shopping. Perhaps there is an in between there somewhere?
===We are also on a tight food budget for three people. I keep track of expenses and plan budgets using Mint.com===
Robyn-- thank you for sharing your personal story with me. Your experiences seem very close to mine and all your tips will be so helpful. I just wanted to mention that we use "You Need a Budget" (YNAB.com) for our budgeting system. It is very similar to Mint.com and we have been using it for 6 years now. It has helped us to be able to keep track of our money so well that we were able to pay off all our debt besides the house and student loans. It was the only reason we were able to be responsible enough to make the transition from a 2 income-working-outside-the-home family to me staying home with my son and being able to go on this journey in the first place. A budget is a powerful thing (as you seem to know now too). It is for this reason that letting my son be aware of our budget is so important to me. It was a struggle for us to get here and I don't want my son to go through that too.
===Either I missed it, or you didn't say - how old is your son?===
My son is 8, turning 9 in June.
===I have noticed Jayn starting to willingly reduce her asking for treats, ask for fewer toys, and be willing to wait patiently until I check the budget at the end of the month for extras.===
My son is good about this for other extras too. We do buy him small things occasionally so he knows that we are willing, but if it's something bigger (more than $25 or so), we do talk about saving up and being able to buy it in the future. We have talked about keeping a list, but he didn't feel he needed it. With food though we have struggled because each item by itself is so small I can't really say "we'll save up to buy that snack". So this is where I falter.
===She also considers which chips to buy, weighs the pleasure of one kind over another, and we are doing pretty well by saving on most of our other basic items===
This is what I am going to try next with my son. Perhaps instead of guessing what he wants and buying 5-6 different snacks in large quantities, we can talk about his favorites and only buy 3-4 different things. That might help us save a little and be more productive for him in meeting his snacking needs.
===and reducing our fast food, to have enough to buy plenty of her favorite thing===
I did want to ask you about this. Lately my son has been asking to go out to eat more. I don't want to keep saying no (or we will next week) to him, but we live in an area where we could walk to a McDonald's easily, and we drive by other fast food places a lot. So he knows they are easily accessible and often asks 3-4 times a week. Again, we have budget concerns with eating out. What has worked for you in being able to reduce the number of trips?
Rachel
Meredith -- Of course I would never want to make my son feel that way, but I am wondering if there is a way to get his needs met while still keeping the budget in mind. I also feel hesitant to completely ignore (or beat around the bush about) the fact that there is a budget as it could possibly give the impression that we can buy whatever, whenever. Hubby and I worked for years and years to be where we are now with our budget, and I am hoping this is not something my son will have to learn the hard way. I am hoping he can learn it by seeing hubby and I keep the budget in mind when we are shopping. Perhaps there is an in between there somewhere?
===We are also on a tight food budget for three people. I keep track of expenses and plan budgets using Mint.com===
Robyn-- thank you for sharing your personal story with me. Your experiences seem very close to mine and all your tips will be so helpful. I just wanted to mention that we use "You Need a Budget" (YNAB.com) for our budgeting system. It is very similar to Mint.com and we have been using it for 6 years now. It has helped us to be able to keep track of our money so well that we were able to pay off all our debt besides the house and student loans. It was the only reason we were able to be responsible enough to make the transition from a 2 income-working-outside-the-home family to me staying home with my son and being able to go on this journey in the first place. A budget is a powerful thing (as you seem to know now too). It is for this reason that letting my son be aware of our budget is so important to me. It was a struggle for us to get here and I don't want my son to go through that too.
===Either I missed it, or you didn't say - how old is your son?===
My son is 8, turning 9 in June.
===I have noticed Jayn starting to willingly reduce her asking for treats, ask for fewer toys, and be willing to wait patiently until I check the budget at the end of the month for extras.===
My son is good about this for other extras too. We do buy him small things occasionally so he knows that we are willing, but if it's something bigger (more than $25 or so), we do talk about saving up and being able to buy it in the future. We have talked about keeping a list, but he didn't feel he needed it. With food though we have struggled because each item by itself is so small I can't really say "we'll save up to buy that snack". So this is where I falter.
===She also considers which chips to buy, weighs the pleasure of one kind over another, and we are doing pretty well by saving on most of our other basic items===
This is what I am going to try next with my son. Perhaps instead of guessing what he wants and buying 5-6 different snacks in large quantities, we can talk about his favorites and only buy 3-4 different things. That might help us save a little and be more productive for him in meeting his snacking needs.
===and reducing our fast food, to have enough to buy plenty of her favorite thing===
I did want to ask you about this. Lately my son has been asking to go out to eat more. I don't want to keep saying no (or we will next week) to him, but we live in an area where we could walk to a McDonald's easily, and we drive by other fast food places a lot. So he knows they are easily accessible and often asks 3-4 times a week. Again, we have budget concerns with eating out. What has worked for you in being able to reduce the number of trips?
Rachel
Pam Sorooshian
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 11:50 AM, athenagwis2 <athenagwis@...> wrote:
"It isn't in our budget" but you're not adjusting your budget to include
his wants. Can't you add more to your food budget so you include enough so
he can get what he wants? Cut somewhere else? Having children costs money -
right now it is food and later it will be something else. Treat food like
you'd treat his other wants - what if he wanted extra math manipulatives? :)
If you're doing so well that you've paid off all your debt - maybe you can
figure out a way to include his extra food desires in your budget.
Is it possible that you have become overly rigid about your budget - are
you letting it rule you rather than using it as a tool?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It is for this reason that letting my son be aware of our budget is soMaybe I don't fully understand the issue - but it seems like you're saying
> important to me. It was a struggle for us to get here and I don't want my
> son to go through that too.
"It isn't in our budget" but you're not adjusting your budget to include
his wants. Can't you add more to your food budget so you include enough so
he can get what he wants? Cut somewhere else? Having children costs money -
right now it is food and later it will be something else. Treat food like
you'd treat his other wants - what if he wanted extra math manipulatives? :)
If you're doing so well that you've paid off all your debt - maybe you can
figure out a way to include his extra food desires in your budget.
Is it possible that you have become overly rigid about your budget - are
you letting it rule you rather than using it as a tool?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 28, 2012, at 2:50 PM, athenagwis2 wrote:
Since he's aware of the budget, why not ask him how many times he'd like to eat out a week? That way he can plan. Check with him after a bit to see if it's enough times a week that you're "budgeting" in.
If money's really tight you (singular) can eat before you go, then you can just get something small to join in with him.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> . So he knows they are easily accessible and often asks 3-4 times a week.Maybe if he could eat out any time he wanted he'd only choose to do so twice a week. But if you only say yes once a week, he needs to keep asking and asking and asking to get the second time.
> Again, we have budget concerns with eating out. What has worked for you
> in being able to reduce the number of trips?
Since he's aware of the budget, why not ask him how many times he'd like to eat out a week? That way he can plan. Check with him after a bit to see if it's enough times a week that you're "budgeting" in.
If money's really tight you (singular) can eat before you go, then you can just get something small to join in with him.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<"If money's really tight you (singular) can eat before you go, then you can just get something small to join in with him.?>>>>
I do that all the time with my kids. Specially when they want to go to McDonalds. They eat and I sit with them. I can always get something in the dollar menu
if I really get hungry or thirsty.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
K Pennell
Sometimes I just don't have the money. If I don't, I might say "I only have X amount in my wallet. That isn't enough to go to McDonalds for a meal, but we could go buy some candy or Utz chips" (his favorite, and the cheap ones!).
He almost invariably says "ok, let's walk to the market, and when we get back, want to play a game (or watch Spongebob) while we eat our snack?" It becomes an event of it's own. He gets that money is a struggle, and sometimes the answer has to be no, but it isn't an absolute no. I'm open for negotiations. What I can do, I'm happy to do.
He almost invariably says "ok, let's walk to the market, and when we get back, want to play a game (or watch Spongebob) while we eat our snack?" It becomes an event of it's own. He gets that money is a struggle, and sometimes the answer has to be no, but it isn't an absolute no. I'm open for negotiations. What I can do, I'm happy to do.
--- On Mon, 5/28/12, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Help with Amounts of Food
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, May 28, 2012, 4:19 PM
<<<"If money's really tight you (singular) can eat before you go, then you can just get something small to join in with him.?>>>>
I do that all the time with my kids. Specially when they want to go to McDonalds. They eat and I sit with them. I can always get something in the dollar menu
if I really get hungry or thirsty.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
athenagwis2
===Maybe I don't fully understand the issue - but it seems like you're saying "It isn't in our budget" but you're not adjusting your budget to include his wants.===
I may not be explaining myself very well. I am willing to adjust our food budget and know that I will have to, but we went from $500/mo to $1300/mo so that's a pretty big adjustment to sustain. This is the reason I am asking for help. I know this is the first month, so we are bound to have a higher food bill as my son gets used to me saying yes more. To compensate for that, we have temporarily moved some money around to cover the extra, but I was looking for some ideas that worked for other people on meeting your kid's food needs, but keeping some kind of budget in mind (even if our monthly budget ends up being higher than our original $500, I am just hoping it won't always be as high as it was this month). Does that make more sense?
After reading and mulling over what others have said, I think it will be helpful if I speak with my son more about the snacks he wants, and we could work together to get a couple snack choices that are his favorites and buy more of just those specific ones, which might help keep the bill a little lower. I have already implemented the idea of breaking down the snacks into portion size containers. He can have as many containers as he wants, but they do give him a better stopping point. This seems to be working out already as well.
===Since he's aware of the budget, why not ask him how many times he'd like to eat out a week? That way he can plan. Check with him after a bit to see if it's enough times a week that you're "budgeting" in..===
Great ideas! He does respond well to knowing when something is coming, so if I bring him in on planning when we will go, he may not feel the need to ask anymore. This will also allow me to make a budget item more precise for eating out, one thing I don't really have right now.
I may not be explaining myself very well. I am willing to adjust our food budget and know that I will have to, but we went from $500/mo to $1300/mo so that's a pretty big adjustment to sustain. This is the reason I am asking for help. I know this is the first month, so we are bound to have a higher food bill as my son gets used to me saying yes more. To compensate for that, we have temporarily moved some money around to cover the extra, but I was looking for some ideas that worked for other people on meeting your kid's food needs, but keeping some kind of budget in mind (even if our monthly budget ends up being higher than our original $500, I am just hoping it won't always be as high as it was this month). Does that make more sense?
After reading and mulling over what others have said, I think it will be helpful if I speak with my son more about the snacks he wants, and we could work together to get a couple snack choices that are his favorites and buy more of just those specific ones, which might help keep the bill a little lower. I have already implemented the idea of breaking down the snacks into portion size containers. He can have as many containers as he wants, but they do give him a better stopping point. This seems to be working out already as well.
===Since he's aware of the budget, why not ask him how many times he'd like to eat out a week? That way he can plan. Check with him after a bit to see if it's enough times a week that you're "budgeting" in..===
Great ideas! He does respond well to knowing when something is coming, so if I bring him in on planning when we will go, he may not feel the need to ask anymore. This will also allow me to make a budget item more precise for eating out, one thing I don't really have right now.
mightylittledude
"It is for this reason that letting my son be aware of our budget is so important to me. It was a struggle for us to get here and I don't want my son to go through that too."
This is what struck me as I read these posts. I'm not an experienced enough unschooler to give insightful answers to this thought, and I'm kind of hoping that others on this list will. But as for the thought itself, I do wonder if it is a classic parenting trap (I often find myself in, unwittingly) whereby some issue which was (or still is) difficult or especially troubling for the parents then carries way more weight than it needs to. A nearly nine year old seems awfully young to take on board these anxieties about his future choices - and it seems like he has a few good years to get help figuring out finances. Sometimes these fears can create a bit of a *fog* and cloud figuring out practicalities.
You've got lots of practical advice (which I am benefitting from reading, too). I just wanted to point to that quote above, since it seemed like it had the potential to stand in the way of the idea of creating *abundance*.
Cornelia
This is what struck me as I read these posts. I'm not an experienced enough unschooler to give insightful answers to this thought, and I'm kind of hoping that others on this list will. But as for the thought itself, I do wonder if it is a classic parenting trap (I often find myself in, unwittingly) whereby some issue which was (or still is) difficult or especially troubling for the parents then carries way more weight than it needs to. A nearly nine year old seems awfully young to take on board these anxieties about his future choices - and it seems like he has a few good years to get help figuring out finances. Sometimes these fears can create a bit of a *fog* and cloud figuring out practicalities.
You've got lots of practical advice (which I am benefitting from reading, too). I just wanted to point to that quote above, since it seemed like it had the potential to stand in the way of the idea of creating *abundance*.
Cornelia
Meredith
"athenagwis2" <athenagwis@...> wrote:
What if there isn't? What if what he really wants right now is more food? It could be that the budget you have could stand to be modified, or re-vamped entirely to accommodate changing situations.
A little over six months ago, Ray had a big dietary change. He picked up an infection that he decided to try and manage with diet and ended up eating massively more food than before, and more expensive, organic and specialty foods. It took some time and re-thinking to figure out how to accommodate his needs, and it was pretty tempting to say "good grief, if you'd just eat normally we wouldn't be spending so much on food!" But that wouldn't have been very helpful and Ray, at least, would have felt that the budget was more important than his needs.
Assumptions like that can really backfire, though, if the budget seems more important than individual needs and interests. Some people over-spend for Exactly that reason - trying to heal old hurts saying yes to all the things they were denied as kids.
While it is true that people learn from other people, it's important not to get too hung up on the idea of modelling. It's not possible to know Which of your behaviors you are modelling to each individual child because you can't know where his or her attention is. Modelling doesn't equal learning any more than teaching does. My mother was a big fan of weekly menus as a means of deciding what to buy at the store. She can be said to have modeled that for most of my childhood - but I don't do any menu planning whatsoever.
Instead of reducing numbers of trips, it could help to set a budget for Each trip. It's not a big deal to go to McD's every day if you're only spending a couple dollars each time. What are his favorites when he eats out and what can be easily replicated at home? Can you make something Like what's at the restaurant at home? Do you have a deep fryer? That's something which could set you up to spend less money over time, if you learn to make your own fries etc.
---Meredith
>I am wondering if there is a way to get his needs met while still keeping the budget in mind******************
What if there isn't? What if what he really wants right now is more food? It could be that the budget you have could stand to be modified, or re-vamped entirely to accommodate changing situations.
A little over six months ago, Ray had a big dietary change. He picked up an infection that he decided to try and manage with diet and ended up eating massively more food than before, and more expensive, organic and specialty foods. It took some time and re-thinking to figure out how to accommodate his needs, and it was pretty tempting to say "good grief, if you'd just eat normally we wouldn't be spending so much on food!" But that wouldn't have been very helpful and Ray, at least, would have felt that the budget was more important than his needs.
>>Hubby and I worked for years and years to be where we are now with our budget, and I am hoping this is not something my son will have to learn the hard way. I am hoping he can learn it by seeing hubby and I keep the budget in mind when we are shopping.***************
Assumptions like that can really backfire, though, if the budget seems more important than individual needs and interests. Some people over-spend for Exactly that reason - trying to heal old hurts saying yes to all the things they were denied as kids.
While it is true that people learn from other people, it's important not to get too hung up on the idea of modelling. It's not possible to know Which of your behaviors you are modelling to each individual child because you can't know where his or her attention is. Modelling doesn't equal learning any more than teaching does. My mother was a big fan of weekly menus as a means of deciding what to buy at the store. She can be said to have modeled that for most of my childhood - but I don't do any menu planning whatsoever.
>>So he knows they are easily accessible and often asks 3-4 times a week. Again, we have budget concerns with eating out. What has worked for you in being able to reduce the number of trips?*****************
Instead of reducing numbers of trips, it could help to set a budget for Each trip. It's not a big deal to go to McD's every day if you're only spending a couple dollars each time. What are his favorites when he eats out and what can be easily replicated at home? Can you make something Like what's at the restaurant at home? Do you have a deep fryer? That's something which could set you up to spend less money over time, if you learn to make your own fries etc.
---Meredith
Meredith
"athenagwis2" <athenagwis@...> wrote:
Ours did something similar the first couple months of Ray's new diet. Some of that was pure transition - we ended up buying a lot of things he wanted to try, but then didn't want to eat because of one thing or another. Once things settled down a bit and we had a sense of what he was eating and what he wasn't, it was easier to plan and re-arrange the shopping list to accommodate his needs.
So for now, it could help a lot to realize you're in the midst of a transition and the way things are now Aren't the way they'll always be. You're figuring it out. What you learned last month will inform your decisions this month.
---Meredith
> I am willing to adjust our food budget and know that I will have to, but we went from $500/mo to $1300/mo so that's a pretty big adjustment to sustain.*****************
Ours did something similar the first couple months of Ray's new diet. Some of that was pure transition - we ended up buying a lot of things he wanted to try, but then didn't want to eat because of one thing or another. Once things settled down a bit and we had a sense of what he was eating and what he wasn't, it was easier to plan and re-arrange the shopping list to accommodate his needs.
So for now, it could help a lot to realize you're in the midst of a transition and the way things are now Aren't the way they'll always be. You're figuring it out. What you learned last month will inform your decisions this month.
---Meredith
Jenny Cyphers
***Lately my son has been asking to go out to eat more. I don't want to keep saying no (or we will next week) to him, but we live in an area where we could walk to a McDonald's easily, and we drive by other fast food places a lot. So he knows they are easily accessible and often asks 3-4 times a week. Again, we have budget concerns with eating out. What has worked for you in being able to reduce the number of trips?***
Perhaps don't think of it as eating out. Our family rarely eats out, but we do sometimes pick up food for one or both of our kids if they've requested something specific and we have the money. Fast food places are generally very inexpensive. It doesn't have to be whole meals, it could be dollar menu items or just a bag of fries. Another really good alternative we found was to include packaged meals in our grocery shopping. Having things like Hot Pockets or sausage and egg biscuits from the freezer section will often meet that need. Once we started doing that, it wasn't a big leap to make our own versions of those same items and do comparisons.
The really great thing about food budgets is how incredibly flexible they are. You want to eat lots of lemons? If you are anywhere near a Costco, get a membership, buy a huge bag or box of the things you use lots of. They have HUGE bags of chips and HUGE bags of lemons. Even in a small house, you can find room for a few large items. You don't need to buy all your toilet paper from Costco if you have no room for it. (we don't) Buying in bulk doesn't always mean buying EVERYthing in bulk. I'm selective about what I buy in bulk. I won't buy bulk spinach, it goes bad too quickly, but I will buy bulk cheese and meat because the cost of it balances out the inconvenience of finding a location to store it!
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Perhaps don't think of it as eating out. Our family rarely eats out, but we do sometimes pick up food for one or both of our kids if they've requested something specific and we have the money. Fast food places are generally very inexpensive. It doesn't have to be whole meals, it could be dollar menu items or just a bag of fries. Another really good alternative we found was to include packaged meals in our grocery shopping. Having things like Hot Pockets or sausage and egg biscuits from the freezer section will often meet that need. Once we started doing that, it wasn't a big leap to make our own versions of those same items and do comparisons.
The really great thing about food budgets is how incredibly flexible they are. You want to eat lots of lemons? If you are anywhere near a Costco, get a membership, buy a huge bag or box of the things you use lots of. They have HUGE bags of chips and HUGE bags of lemons. Even in a small house, you can find room for a few large items. You don't need to buy all your toilet paper from Costco if you have no room for it. (we don't) Buying in bulk doesn't always mean buying EVERYthing in bulk. I'm selective about what I buy in bulk. I won't buy bulk spinach, it goes bad too quickly, but I will buy bulk cheese and meat because the cost of it balances out the inconvenience of finding a location to store it!
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Pam Sorooshian
> Again, we have budget concerns with eating out. What has worked for you inThis won't be the last time your child wants something that you have
> being able to reduce the number of trips?***
"budget concerns" about. It happens to all of us that our kids want things
that we would not have chosen to spend money on - things we don't think are
worth the money or things that are hard for us to afford. They'll want toys
or clothing that you know are made with shoddy materials or that they'll
play with or wear a time or two and then abandon.
There are times you can offer really great alternatives - you can say, "We
can get hash browns here or we could go home and have........".
If it is really truly unaffordable - as in you'd not be able to pay for
your housing, etc., then say so and make plans for that once per week time
you can afford. Enjoy that - be grateful for that.
If it is that you don't see any value in eating out several times per week
and don't want to spend your money on that, then reconsider. Try to see it
as a gift.
Could you find a place in your budget to afford $5 or $6 per week? Buy him
a couple of things off the dollar menu at MacD's two or three times per
week?
Feeling generous is SO wonderful. It is really one of the greatest joys of
parenthood.
-pam
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Jenny Cyphers
***If it is really truly unaffordable - as in you'd not be able to pay for
your housing, etc., then say so and make plans for that once per week time
you can afford. Enjoy that - be grateful for that.***
Even if you are really poor financially, you can find ways to be generous and grateful around food and eating out! From my perspective, being able to spend a thousand dollars on food for a family of three is luxurious. I'm not saying that to compare or make anyone feel bad or uncomfortable. I've been there, I know what that feels like and right now I'm not there and I know what that feels like too.
Really, this comes down to priorities. If organic everything is more important than being able to afford as many chips as possible, then the priority right there is not towards what your child wants, but towards what the parent thinks is best. If the dietary restrictions are that everything needs to be gluten free and you are buying all kinds of specialty gf items over simple meal of rice and corn tortillas and similar things, then the priority seems to be towards convenience foods and if that is the case, convenience foods can be eating out at fast food restaurants. Again, it goes back to the parent finding more value in gf convenience items over the fast food that the kids want. I'm not saying these are anyone's specifics, I'm pointing out various food priorities that I've witnessed first hand.
Food budgets are really THE MOST flexible parts of people's budgets! So, seriously, HAVE FUN with it! It's not a dreaded thing to feed people what they love to eat, it's fun and interesting and a freakin HUGE part of life! So, like Pam said, "Enjoy that - be grateful for that."
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your housing, etc., then say so and make plans for that once per week time
you can afford. Enjoy that - be grateful for that.***
Even if you are really poor financially, you can find ways to be generous and grateful around food and eating out! From my perspective, being able to spend a thousand dollars on food for a family of three is luxurious. I'm not saying that to compare or make anyone feel bad or uncomfortable. I've been there, I know what that feels like and right now I'm not there and I know what that feels like too.
Really, this comes down to priorities. If organic everything is more important than being able to afford as many chips as possible, then the priority right there is not towards what your child wants, but towards what the parent thinks is best. If the dietary restrictions are that everything needs to be gluten free and you are buying all kinds of specialty gf items over simple meal of rice and corn tortillas and similar things, then the priority seems to be towards convenience foods and if that is the case, convenience foods can be eating out at fast food restaurants. Again, it goes back to the parent finding more value in gf convenience items over the fast food that the kids want. I'm not saying these are anyone's specifics, I'm pointing out various food priorities that I've witnessed first hand.
Food budgets are really THE MOST flexible parts of people's budgets! So, seriously, HAVE FUN with it! It's not a dreaded thing to feed people what they love to eat, it's fun and interesting and a freakin HUGE part of life! So, like Pam said, "Enjoy that - be grateful for that."
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Marina DeLuca-Howard
I couldn't figure out if eating out was part of child's choice. If so how
about a picnic in a park? Or if its the fun of certain
restaurants--picking up a single portion for him. You and your partner can
have a regular meal. What about having some cheaper meals to balance out
the expensive ones?
Can you shop more frequently? what prevents frequent shopping. For me I
check flyers for loss leaders then my kids and I find the sales...ooh ice
cream is on sale here for a week, chips are on sale this week over here and
then we plan where we buy other things. I found even before there were
five of us that I needed to shop more than once a week. Milk especially
and juice go quicly:)
Marina
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about a picnic in a park? Or if its the fun of certain
restaurants--picking up a single portion for him. You and your partner can
have a regular meal. What about having some cheaper meals to balance out
the expensive ones?
Can you shop more frequently? what prevents frequent shopping. For me I
check flyers for loss leaders then my kids and I find the sales...ooh ice
cream is on sale here for a week, chips are on sale this week over here and
then we plan where we buy other things. I found even before there were
five of us that I needed to shop more than once a week. Milk especially
and juice go quicly:)
Marina
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Rachel
===From my perspective, being able to spend a thousand dollars on food for
a family of three is luxurious. I'm not saying that to compare or make
anyone feel bad or uncomfortable.===
$1,000/mo on food is luxurious and not my normal budget at all! That's
exactly why I am asking here for tips on lowering that amount because I had
to take from savings to be able to pay for that and if the food continues
to be that high, it would be very difficult for us to sustain.
===Again, it goes back to the parent finding more value in gf convenience
items over the fast food that the kids want.===
This could be true for me. I may be buying more convenience type foods
that are more expensive. I do cook many things from scratch, but perhaps I
need to take a closer look at that. Lunch is the hardest for me, I usually
end up with frozen meals for part of the week because I just have a hard
time thinking of ideas for lunch!! Those definitely add up.
==If it is that you don't see any value in eating out several times per
week and don't want to spend your money on that, then reconsider. Try to
see it as a gift===
You are right Pam, previously we always had this mindset that everything
had to be fair, so if our son got dinner out so did we, if one of us got a
soda, everyone else had to too. I am slowly seeing that sometimes it's
okay for me as the parent to give a gift to my son to make him happy
without having to give something to myself as well (especially if we can't
afford it). I guess I would say we had an all or nothing mentality before
and it doesn't have to be that way. In fact, I told my hsuband to pick my
son up McDonald's tonight to surprise him and I just made regular dinner
for hubby and me. My son was beyond excited and not getting something for
us was really no big deal at all. I saved money and made my son so happy,
win/win.
In all honesty, I am still struggling with this. I am going through
Sandra's site today and reading everything she has on food (mainly eating
as much as they want). I wish I could say it was easy for me to think
differently about this, but I am finding it to be so hard. When I see my
son eat a half bag of cookies, 6 kiwis, 2 bananas, half a box of crackers,
1/4 bag of chips, 1/4 container sliced ham, 1 whole bag frozen mango, and 1
small container of ice cream (in addition to all his meals) (and probably
more that I can't remember now) all in one day, I do slip into my old habit
of cringing. I am trying to keep that cringe to myself, but I did
backslide and try to talk to my son about amounts the other day, but then I
kicked myself for doing it as I knew I had basically started us all over
again as when I came down to check on him he was defensive about the snack
he was eating. It makes me so mad at myself that I can't get a handle on
this. Everything else I am doing fine with, TV, bedtimes, saying yes more,
etc... but I am really struggling with this one. I don't know why.
Rachel
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a family of three is luxurious. I'm not saying that to compare or make
anyone feel bad or uncomfortable.===
$1,000/mo on food is luxurious and not my normal budget at all! That's
exactly why I am asking here for tips on lowering that amount because I had
to take from savings to be able to pay for that and if the food continues
to be that high, it would be very difficult for us to sustain.
===Again, it goes back to the parent finding more value in gf convenience
items over the fast food that the kids want.===
This could be true for me. I may be buying more convenience type foods
that are more expensive. I do cook many things from scratch, but perhaps I
need to take a closer look at that. Lunch is the hardest for me, I usually
end up with frozen meals for part of the week because I just have a hard
time thinking of ideas for lunch!! Those definitely add up.
==If it is that you don't see any value in eating out several times per
week and don't want to spend your money on that, then reconsider. Try to
see it as a gift===
You are right Pam, previously we always had this mindset that everything
had to be fair, so if our son got dinner out so did we, if one of us got a
soda, everyone else had to too. I am slowly seeing that sometimes it's
okay for me as the parent to give a gift to my son to make him happy
without having to give something to myself as well (especially if we can't
afford it). I guess I would say we had an all or nothing mentality before
and it doesn't have to be that way. In fact, I told my hsuband to pick my
son up McDonald's tonight to surprise him and I just made regular dinner
for hubby and me. My son was beyond excited and not getting something for
us was really no big deal at all. I saved money and made my son so happy,
win/win.
In all honesty, I am still struggling with this. I am going through
Sandra's site today and reading everything she has on food (mainly eating
as much as they want). I wish I could say it was easy for me to think
differently about this, but I am finding it to be so hard. When I see my
son eat a half bag of cookies, 6 kiwis, 2 bananas, half a box of crackers,
1/4 bag of chips, 1/4 container sliced ham, 1 whole bag frozen mango, and 1
small container of ice cream (in addition to all his meals) (and probably
more that I can't remember now) all in one day, I do slip into my old habit
of cringing. I am trying to keep that cringe to myself, but I did
backslide and try to talk to my son about amounts the other day, but then I
kicked myself for doing it as I knew I had basically started us all over
again as when I came down to check on him he was defensive about the snack
he was eating. It makes me so mad at myself that I can't get a handle on
this. Everything else I am doing fine with, TV, bedtimes, saying yes more,
etc... but I am really struggling with this one. I don't know why.
Rachel
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Joyce Fetteroll
On May 29, 2012, at 1:14 PM, mightylittledude wrote:
It depend on the child's personality. And that takes getting to know your child to know how they translate what they're told.
Joyce
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> A nearly nine year old seems awfully young to take on board these anxietiesIt depends how it's presented. Information helps in decision making. If it's presented as something to worry about, they're going to worry about something they have no power over. If it's presented as a way to empower them to get what they want within the resources the parents have, that's helpful.
> about his future choices - and it seems like he has a few good years to get
> help figuring out finances.
It depend on the child's personality. And that takes getting to know your child to know how they translate what they're told.
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=-and if the food continues
to be that high, it would be very difficult for us to sustain.-=-
Then don't.
Seriously.
If advice from unschoolers makes no sense or is undoable for you, don't do it.
We're here to help people who really do want to do it, and ANY other realities (religious, diet, finances) can make it unworkable. It can make it unworkable in fact, or in the mind of the parent, and those two are equally able to keep unschooling from working.
No one should try to implement advice he or she doesn't really understand, in my opinion--not advice from professionals or unschoolers on the internet, nor relatives, nor friends. Maybe except for financial advice. People do buy cars and get mortgages sometimes without fully understanding all the fine print.
But making a payment can happen the same way whether the person signing the check or sliding the card is calm and clear about it or not. Unschooling only works well when the parent is calm and clear about what is going on, and why.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to be that high, it would be very difficult for us to sustain.-=-
Then don't.
Seriously.
If advice from unschoolers makes no sense or is undoable for you, don't do it.
We're here to help people who really do want to do it, and ANY other realities (religious, diet, finances) can make it unworkable. It can make it unworkable in fact, or in the mind of the parent, and those two are equally able to keep unschooling from working.
No one should try to implement advice he or she doesn't really understand, in my opinion--not advice from professionals or unschoolers on the internet, nor relatives, nor friends. Maybe except for financial advice. People do buy cars and get mortgages sometimes without fully understanding all the fine print.
But making a payment can happen the same way whether the person signing the check or sliding the card is calm and clear about it or not. Unschooling only works well when the parent is calm and clear about what is going on, and why.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=- Everything else I am doing fine with, TV, bedtimes, saying yes more,
etc... but I am really struggling with this one. I don't know why.-=-
Maybe it's because you see it as separate from "saying yes more."
If you had said yes more about food instead of (it seems) saying, suddenly, "ALL YOU WANT!" you might have come to it more gradually, and thoughtfully, and he would have been in on the process of your allowing more gradually. Maybe, and maybe not.
Restrictions create desire and unhappiness.
But here's another question:
-=- When I see my
son eat a half bag of cookies, 6 kiwis, 2 bananas, half a box of crackers,
1/4 bag of chips, 1/4 container sliced ham, 1 whole bag frozen mango, and 1
small container of ice cream (in addition to all his meals)...-=-
"His meals"?
You're separating meals from other food, in your mind?
You see his portion of dinner as "his meal" maybe?
Maybe you could ask (without meanness) whether he's eating because he's hungry, or because you said no so many times. Don't press for an answer. He probably doesn't know. Just leave the question out there, perhaps. Or maybe just say something like "Don't eat if you're not hungry." But that would need to apply to "his meals," too. If you were in the habit of making him finish "his meals," he might be doing that AND eating as much as he can out of fear that it's a temporary offer, and that you will go back to measurements of amounts and time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
etc... but I am really struggling with this one. I don't know why.-=-
Maybe it's because you see it as separate from "saying yes more."
If you had said yes more about food instead of (it seems) saying, suddenly, "ALL YOU WANT!" you might have come to it more gradually, and thoughtfully, and he would have been in on the process of your allowing more gradually. Maybe, and maybe not.
Restrictions create desire and unhappiness.
But here's another question:
-=- When I see my
son eat a half bag of cookies, 6 kiwis, 2 bananas, half a box of crackers,
1/4 bag of chips, 1/4 container sliced ham, 1 whole bag frozen mango, and 1
small container of ice cream (in addition to all his meals)...-=-
"His meals"?
You're separating meals from other food, in your mind?
You see his portion of dinner as "his meal" maybe?
Maybe you could ask (without meanness) whether he's eating because he's hungry, or because you said no so many times. Don't press for an answer. He probably doesn't know. Just leave the question out there, perhaps. Or maybe just say something like "Don't eat if you're not hungry." But that would need to apply to "his meals," too. If you were in the habit of making him finish "his meals," he might be doing that AND eating as much as he can out of fear that it's a temporary offer, and that you will go back to measurements of amounts and time.
Sandra
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Kimberly Sims
~ " In all honesty, I am still struggling with this. I am going through
Sandra's site today and reading everything she has on food (mainly eating
as much as they want). I wish I could say it was easy for me to think
differently about this, but I am finding it to be so hard. When I see my
son eat a half bag of cookies, 6 kiwis, 2 bananas, half a box of crackers,
1/4 bag of chips, 1/4 container sliced ham, 1 whole bag frozen mango, and 1
small container of ice cream (in addition to all his meals) (and probably
more that I can't remember now) all in one day, I do slip into my old habit
of cringing. I am trying to keep that cringe to myself, but I did
backslide and try to talk to my son about amounts the other day, but then I
kicked myself for doing it as I knew I had basically started us all over
again as when I came down to check on him he was defensive about the snack
he was eating."~
I am wondering if the problem you are having changing your mindset about food
comes from your own childhood and how you were raised with food. I noticed
"portion sizes" mentioned several times and keeping track of everything your
son is eating. I had my own baggage surrounding food and sometimes still hear my
dad's voice in my head saying things like "too many starches on your plate" or
your "portion" size is way too big". Maybe thinking about your own childhood and
how food played a part would help get a clearer picture of why you are having
trouble with this issue.
Maybe this goes deeper than "budget" issues and is more about fear of your son
having weight issues if he continues to eat like he is (though for a growing boy
it sounds pretty normal to me). There is SO much information out there right now
about childhood obesity and food issues fanning lots of new ,unnecessary,
parental fears. All of my girls (22, 11, and 6) can eat whatever they want and
honestly don't care that much for the very foods media says is causing obesity
in children. Yes once we first started to unschool they experimented with
Twinkies and all kinds of foods labeled "junk" but because I had addressed *my*
own fears of food it wasn't a big deal and they learned to listen to their own
bodies needs.
Maybe he had a growth spurt and his eating more food is a coincidence to you
saying yes more. Our food budget is constantly changing due to growing
children.What worked last year when the girls were 10 and 5 has changed and I've
had to reevaluate some things. My 11 year old daughter eats more then I do. She
is a grazer and has learned to eat when she is hungry. My husband likes to have
*his* dinner at a certain time. He is the provider of our home and needs to go
to sleep earlier then the rest of us and it makes him happy to eat at the same
time daily. I fix our dinner to be ready for him but that does not mean we are
all eating at the same time. Sometimes my 11 year old is full from snacking and
she doesn't eat dinner at all, which ends up saving us money in the long run. If
you are still having "meal times" because of arbitrary rules and not eating
because of being hungry your son might have trouble learning the difference of
truly eating because he is hungry or just because it's dinner time and he is
suppose to. Again questioning the reasoning behind the purpose of food and why
we eat could help. This then could tie in with saving money on your budget by
not needing to make as much food or having your own frozen, portion
sized dinners already prepared from leftovers causing you to buy less next
grocery trip.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra's site today and reading everything she has on food (mainly eating
as much as they want). I wish I could say it was easy for me to think
differently about this, but I am finding it to be so hard. When I see my
son eat a half bag of cookies, 6 kiwis, 2 bananas, half a box of crackers,
1/4 bag of chips, 1/4 container sliced ham, 1 whole bag frozen mango, and 1
small container of ice cream (in addition to all his meals) (and probably
more that I can't remember now) all in one day, I do slip into my old habit
of cringing. I am trying to keep that cringe to myself, but I did
backslide and try to talk to my son about amounts the other day, but then I
kicked myself for doing it as I knew I had basically started us all over
again as when I came down to check on him he was defensive about the snack
he was eating."~
I am wondering if the problem you are having changing your mindset about food
comes from your own childhood and how you were raised with food. I noticed
"portion sizes" mentioned several times and keeping track of everything your
son is eating. I had my own baggage surrounding food and sometimes still hear my
dad's voice in my head saying things like "too many starches on your plate" or
your "portion" size is way too big". Maybe thinking about your own childhood and
how food played a part would help get a clearer picture of why you are having
trouble with this issue.
Maybe this goes deeper than "budget" issues and is more about fear of your son
having weight issues if he continues to eat like he is (though for a growing boy
it sounds pretty normal to me). There is SO much information out there right now
about childhood obesity and food issues fanning lots of new ,unnecessary,
parental fears. All of my girls (22, 11, and 6) can eat whatever they want and
honestly don't care that much for the very foods media says is causing obesity
in children. Yes once we first started to unschool they experimented with
Twinkies and all kinds of foods labeled "junk" but because I had addressed *my*
own fears of food it wasn't a big deal and they learned to listen to their own
bodies needs.
Maybe he had a growth spurt and his eating more food is a coincidence to you
saying yes more. Our food budget is constantly changing due to growing
children.What worked last year when the girls were 10 and 5 has changed and I've
had to reevaluate some things. My 11 year old daughter eats more then I do. She
is a grazer and has learned to eat when she is hungry. My husband likes to have
*his* dinner at a certain time. He is the provider of our home and needs to go
to sleep earlier then the rest of us and it makes him happy to eat at the same
time daily. I fix our dinner to be ready for him but that does not mean we are
all eating at the same time. Sometimes my 11 year old is full from snacking and
she doesn't eat dinner at all, which ends up saving us money in the long run. If
you are still having "meal times" because of arbitrary rules and not eating
because of being hungry your son might have trouble learning the difference of
truly eating because he is hungry or just because it's dinner time and he is
suppose to. Again questioning the reasoning behind the purpose of food and why
we eat could help. This then could tie in with saving money on your budget by
not needing to make as much food or having your own frozen, portion
sized dinners already prepared from leftovers causing you to buy less next
grocery trip.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Part of strewing is creative interpretation. For instance if your child
likes to eat out--how about playing restaurant? Get some fancy lawn sale
tablecloths, and candles. Maybe wear chef hats you make from paper, or
even "play waitress"--white blouse, black shirt and note pad:)
Maybe, recreate the macfood experience and "splurge" on disposable
containers, plastic forks, paperbags,and draw "restaurant logos" on the
bags? Ground beef and buns, even gluten-free ones, with your own homemade
special sauce( tomato paste, spices and molasses) and a freecyle deepfryer
with cheap veggie oil for fries would be inexpensive. Especially for a
family of three.
I don't understand. Your budget is your budget, and you shouldn't go into
debt to buy food. That said, if your child is eating three meals a day and
snacks that's okay. We are talking about food. Food is a physiological
need. Some cookies are smaller than others, some described portions can be
confusing....hard to judge.
Its okay unless there is illness to let your child eat.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
likes to eat out--how about playing restaurant? Get some fancy lawn sale
tablecloths, and candles. Maybe wear chef hats you make from paper, or
even "play waitress"--white blouse, black shirt and note pad:)
Maybe, recreate the macfood experience and "splurge" on disposable
containers, plastic forks, paperbags,and draw "restaurant logos" on the
bags? Ground beef and buns, even gluten-free ones, with your own homemade
special sauce( tomato paste, spices and molasses) and a freecyle deepfryer
with cheap veggie oil for fries would be inexpensive. Especially for a
family of three.
I don't understand. Your budget is your budget, and you shouldn't go into
debt to buy food. That said, if your child is eating three meals a day and
snacks that's okay. We are talking about food. Food is a physiological
need. Some cookies are smaller than others, some described portions can be
confusing....hard to judge.
Its okay unless there is illness to let your child eat.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Miliana
"Maybe it's because you see it as separate from "saying yes more."
If you had said yes more about food instead of (it seems) saying, suddenly, "ALL YOU WANT!" you might have come to it more gradually, and thoughtfully, and he would have been in on the process of your allowing more gradually. Maybe, and maybe not." - Sandra
I've been following this thread with interest. My husband is the primary food person in the house, making the menus and buying the food and cooking it all. He's been slowing me down from "ALL YOU WANT!" to just saying yes more. I hadn't realized this was a good thing 'til I read this and a few other posts and thought, "Yeah, saying yes is fun, it's nice. We like it, the girls like it, and it gives us time to wait and watch without worrying about the budget." It's also given us time to reflect on our feelings about food and to examine our reactions without acting on them (at least, not in front of the girls). While the transition feels slow to me it's been at a healthy pace, I think, for my husband and the girls.
BTW, in Hawai'i our (moderate) food budget is about $900 for four people.
Aloha,
Miliana
Sent from my iPhone; please excuse typos and auto corrections.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you had said yes more about food instead of (it seems) saying, suddenly, "ALL YOU WANT!" you might have come to it more gradually, and thoughtfully, and he would have been in on the process of your allowing more gradually. Maybe, and maybe not." - Sandra
I've been following this thread with interest. My husband is the primary food person in the house, making the menus and buying the food and cooking it all. He's been slowing me down from "ALL YOU WANT!" to just saying yes more. I hadn't realized this was a good thing 'til I read this and a few other posts and thought, "Yeah, saying yes is fun, it's nice. We like it, the girls like it, and it gives us time to wait and watch without worrying about the budget." It's also given us time to reflect on our feelings about food and to examine our reactions without acting on them (at least, not in front of the girls). While the transition feels slow to me it's been at a healthy pace, I think, for my husband and the girls.
BTW, in Hawai'i our (moderate) food budget is about $900 for four people.
Aloha,
Miliana
Sent from my iPhone; please excuse typos and auto corrections.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 31, 2012, at 12:19 PM, Marina DeLuca-Howard wrote:
What you're describing is feeding an interest and thinking outside the box.
Strewing is leaving new and interesting things about for kids to stumble across, for them to pick up for 5 seconds or 5 years. Or to ignore if it doesn't look interesting.
Strewing is one technique for creating a richer environment for them to learn in.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Part of strewing is creative interpretation. For instance if your childA clarification:
> likes to eat out--how about playing restaurant? Get some fancy lawn sale
> tablecloths, and candles
What you're describing is feeding an interest and thinking outside the box.
Strewing is leaving new and interesting things about for kids to stumble across, for them to pick up for 5 seconds or 5 years. Or to ignore if it doesn't look interesting.
Strewing is one technique for creating a richer environment for them to learn in.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***If you had said yes more about food instead of (it seems) saying, suddenly, "ALL YOU WANT!" you might have come to it more gradually, and thoughtfully, and he would have been in on the process of your allowing more gradually.***
If I made a chart about parents and food control I'd have a certain kind of parent at one end and another certain kind at the other end. So, one end would have the parents who lock up the cabinets and fridges and/or literally don't have food in the house, the other end would be parents who let their kids do whatever they want with food, with or without there being an abundance of it. I guess I'm somewhere in the middle.
My kids have always asked for food. I can say "yes" or "no". They don't like to hear "no", but sometimes I don't want them to eat the last of whatever that I was saving to use in my lunch at work, or a key piece of a meal that I was planning based on the availability of other items.
I remember once being annoyed that my kids always asked, thinking to myself, "Ugh, why can't they just get themselves food if they are hungry and it's sitting right there." Then I realized what a blessing that is! It's the ability to give them something they want and the ability to stop them if I need to. There were things I discovered that helped keep them from eat whole bags or boxes of anything. I put things in bowls. I don't like people putting dirty hands in bags anyway, so this was a way to avoid that. (they do generally wash their hands, but they are kids after all and sometimes that isn't even remotely on their radar when they are hungry)
If your kid asks for food, that's great! Happily give him a bit of food. With things like large quantities of fruit, cut it up and spread it about a plate. Sometimes when things are portioned, it takes longer to eat. When it takes longer to eat, your tummy gets a chance to feel full before you eat more than you need to. "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach", that phrase really is true! Platters of food can feel really abundant without using up entire bags of anything or multiple items of anything.
If I were in your situation I wouldn't let my kid get their own snacks, I'd say to them, "Oh, here, let me help you, go back to playing and I'll bring you some food."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If I made a chart about parents and food control I'd have a certain kind of parent at one end and another certain kind at the other end. So, one end would have the parents who lock up the cabinets and fridges and/or literally don't have food in the house, the other end would be parents who let their kids do whatever they want with food, with or without there being an abundance of it. I guess I'm somewhere in the middle.
My kids have always asked for food. I can say "yes" or "no". They don't like to hear "no", but sometimes I don't want them to eat the last of whatever that I was saving to use in my lunch at work, or a key piece of a meal that I was planning based on the availability of other items.
I remember once being annoyed that my kids always asked, thinking to myself, "Ugh, why can't they just get themselves food if they are hungry and it's sitting right there." Then I realized what a blessing that is! It's the ability to give them something they want and the ability to stop them if I need to. There were things I discovered that helped keep them from eat whole bags or boxes of anything. I put things in bowls. I don't like people putting dirty hands in bags anyway, so this was a way to avoid that. (they do generally wash their hands, but they are kids after all and sometimes that isn't even remotely on their radar when they are hungry)
If your kid asks for food, that's great! Happily give him a bit of food. With things like large quantities of fruit, cut it up and spread it about a plate. Sometimes when things are portioned, it takes longer to eat. When it takes longer to eat, your tummy gets a chance to feel full before you eat more than you need to. "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach", that phrase really is true! Platters of food can feel really abundant without using up entire bags of anything or multiple items of anything.
If I were in your situation I wouldn't let my kid get their own snacks, I'd say to them, "Oh, here, let me help you, go back to playing and I'll bring you some food."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
Food is so much more than sustenance for the body. It is THE most
fundamental type of nurturing and has extremely strong emotional
ramifications. Think about how it is involved in nearly every human
interaction. It is a rare person among us who gets to adulthood without
having food issues of some kind or another.
You are having trouble thinking clearly and calmly about food, and you made
a sudden change and adopted an extreme position. You tried to jump to where
long-time unschoolers are in relation to food - you tried to skip the
process of getting there.
A lot of unschooling is about parents being generous to our children. We
don't have to be so generous - we can limit and restrict and control as
much as we want - the law and societal norms are on that side. Previously,
you were playing tug-of-war and pulling very hard at your end of the rope
while your son pulled equally hard on his. Then, you suddenly let go and
watched him tumble. You could have eased up a little at a time, instead.
Your idea of what "say yes" means has created a problem in your house. It
isn't working. So step back and try something different. Try being more
generous. Always be sure he has plentiful, copious, extravagantly
wonderful amounts of the lower-cost foods that he likes. Think about his
tastes - make lots and lots of the things HE loves. Spaghetti? Pizza?
French fries? Burritos? Tacos? You can make all those kinds of things at
home really cheap.
-pam
fundamental type of nurturing and has extremely strong emotional
ramifications. Think about how it is involved in nearly every human
interaction. It is a rare person among us who gets to adulthood without
having food issues of some kind or another.
You are having trouble thinking clearly and calmly about food, and you made
a sudden change and adopted an extreme position. You tried to jump to where
long-time unschoolers are in relation to food - you tried to skip the
process of getting there.
A lot of unschooling is about parents being generous to our children. We
don't have to be so generous - we can limit and restrict and control as
much as we want - the law and societal norms are on that side. Previously,
you were playing tug-of-war and pulling very hard at your end of the rope
while your son pulled equally hard on his. Then, you suddenly let go and
watched him tumble. You could have eased up a little at a time, instead.
Your idea of what "say yes" means has created a problem in your house. It
isn't working. So step back and try something different. Try being more
generous. Always be sure he has plentiful, copious, extravagantly
wonderful amounts of the lower-cost foods that he likes. Think about his
tastes - make lots and lots of the things HE loves. Spaghetti? Pizza?
French fries? Burritos? Tacos? You can make all those kinds of things at
home really cheap.
-pam
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Rachel <athenagwis@...> wrote:
> but I am really struggling with this one. I don't know why.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
whoops...sorry. The food interest is there its just offering more to the
child to feed the interest:)
Marina
child to feed the interest:)
Marina
On 31 May 2012 12:35, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
>
> On May 31, 2012, at 12:19 PM, Marina DeLuca-Howard wrote:
>
> > Part of strewing is creative interpretation. For instance if your child
> > likes to eat out--how about playing restaurant? Get some fancy lawn sale
> > tablecloths, and candles
>
> A clarification:
>
> What you're describing is feeding an interest and thinking outside the box.
>
> Strewing is leaving new and interesting things about for kids to stumble
> across, for them to pick up for 5 seconds or 5 years. Or to ignore if it
> doesn't look interesting.
>
> Strewing is one technique for creating a richer environment for them to
> learn in.
>
> Joyce
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
Bread and Roses
http://breadandrosescentennial.org/
Trust, Equality and Goodwill
It's not just that the ends do not justify the means (though they don't),
you will never achieve the ends at all unless the means are themselves a
model for the world you wish to create. .*David Graeber*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My kids have always asked for food. I can say "yes" or "no". They don't like to hear "no", but sometimes I don't want them to eat the last of whatever that I was saving to use in my lunch at work, or a key piece of a meal that I was planning based on the availability of other items. -=-
There are things my kids know they don't need to ask about. Frozen individual-sized pizzas and other "kid food" in the freezer, that we've bought for them and their friends to have since they were 12, 13... But other things they might ask, because they might be ingredients, or might be saved for something special. If there's something fancy-looking in the fridge, they would ask in case it's food I made to take elsewhere, or wondering why it's in the fridge and not out on the counter. Sometimes there's another container intended for the house even when there is one fancy "to go" thing they shouldn't eat.
Asking is nice, and if the answer is yes most of the time, that's nice too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There are things my kids know they don't need to ask about. Frozen individual-sized pizzas and other "kid food" in the freezer, that we've bought for them and their friends to have since they were 12, 13... But other things they might ask, because they might be ingredients, or might be saved for something special. If there's something fancy-looking in the fridge, they would ask in case it's food I made to take elsewhere, or wondering why it's in the fridge and not out on the counter. Sometimes there's another container intended for the house even when there is one fancy "to go" thing they shouldn't eat.
Asking is nice, and if the answer is yes most of the time, that's nice too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
One horrible example of how a family negotiated food availability:
When I was in college my best friend and I would often 'crash' at her
parents' home. In their house, any food in the fridge was fair game,
regardless of any other circumstances. Her father would go out of his way
to eat something that was labeled as 'please do not eat' even if it were
something that he didn't like.
This lead to family members hiding food from each other and no one feeling
safe about food choices.
It reminded me of the phrase 'dog eat dog' when I was there witnessing it
all. I found it strange and unfathomable that they would not consider the
rest of the family when choosing food to eat out of the fridge.
There seemed to always be a feeling of want versus contentment.
Chris
When I was in college my best friend and I would often 'crash' at her
parents' home. In their house, any food in the fridge was fair game,
regardless of any other circumstances. Her father would go out of his way
to eat something that was labeled as 'please do not eat' even if it were
something that he didn't like.
This lead to family members hiding food from each other and no one feeling
safe about food choices.
It reminded me of the phrase 'dog eat dog' when I was there witnessing it
all. I found it strange and unfathomable that they would not consider the
rest of the family when choosing food to eat out of the fridge.
There seemed to always be a feeling of want versus contentment.
Chris
On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> -=-My kids have always asked for food. I can say "yes" or "no". They don't
> like to hear "no", but sometimes I don't want them to eat the last of
> whatever that I was saving to use in my lunch at work, or a key piece of a
> meal that I was planning based on the availability of other items. -=-
>
> There are things my kids know they don't need to ask about. Frozen
> individual-sized pizzas and other "kid food" in the freezer, that we've
> bought for them and their friends to have since they were 12, 13... But
> other things they might ask, because they might be ingredients, or might be
> saved for something special. If there's something fancy-looking in the
> fridge, they would ask in case it's food I made to take elsewhere, or
> wondering why it's in the fridge and not out on the counter. Sometimes
> there's another container intended for the house even when there is one
> fancy "to go" thing they shouldn't eat.
>
> Asking is nice, and if the answer is yes most of the time, that's nice too.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]