Stepping in the hornet's nest
[email protected]
Argh---the danger of digest is that in a short time you're replying to old
stuff...
I think I stepped in a hornet's nest bringing up the early marriage stuff. I
didn't mean to offend anyone...I DO think early marriages can be fine or
messed up. like any others, and was mostly wondering if anyone DID see a
trend.
Perhaps we accidentally brought in the term "arranged marriages," which seems
to bother some people.
Well..since I'm offending people...here's another topic: Have any of you
folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you talk to
them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
Hey...I may be a pain here, but at last it's lively, right?
Kathryn (partner of Beth, mama to Julian, who thinks he's probably
straight--but we like him anyway)
P.S. Umm...that was a joke
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stuff...
I think I stepped in a hornet's nest bringing up the early marriage stuff. I
didn't mean to offend anyone...I DO think early marriages can be fine or
messed up. like any others, and was mostly wondering if anyone DID see a
trend.
Perhaps we accidentally brought in the term "arranged marriages," which seems
to bother some people.
Well..since I'm offending people...here's another topic: Have any of you
folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you talk to
them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
Hey...I may be a pain here, but at last it's lively, right?
Kathryn (partner of Beth, mama to Julian, who thinks he's probably
straight--but we like him anyway)
P.S. Umm...that was a joke
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/01 8:24:38 AM, KathrynJB@... writes:
<< Have any of you
folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you talk to
them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
as we get grandkids!
Paula
<< Have any of you
folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you talk to
them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
>>Our (semi)joke here is that we couldn't care less who our kids marry as long
as we get grandkids!
Paula
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/2001 9:24:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
KathrynJB@... writes:
bother me in the least if either of my children were gay. We figure Lelia is
probably straight too. . .she really likes boys. Quinton is two so we don't
know yet. But we do not use strictly heterosexual terms for either of them,
and try to make it known as often as we remember that whatever they choose is
fine with us. . . Quinton talks a lot about "girlfriend" but his girlfriends
can be either sex. I bet though that we unconsciously do things to steer him
the heterosexual way, just out of habit and conditioning . . Lelia thinks it
would be so cool to have a gay brother. I have always had a lot of gay
friends. . .my two best friends in Louisiana are gay,and one of them married
Bryan and I. I was teasing my husband, because according to Dr. Laura, he
should have been very very leary of me, with my gay friends and independent
lifestyle. Before I was married, I used to go to the gay bars with my friends
and was "looking" but it just was not for me. You either are or you aren't. I
just loved being around my friends so much, and thought. .. well, maybe I
could be, but I was not. <BG> Good question.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
KathrynJB@... writes:
> : Have any of youLOL Kathryn. . . love that humor about Julian being straight. It would not
> folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you talk to
> them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
> terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
>
>
bother me in the least if either of my children were gay. We figure Lelia is
probably straight too. . .she really likes boys. Quinton is two so we don't
know yet. But we do not use strictly heterosexual terms for either of them,
and try to make it known as often as we remember that whatever they choose is
fine with us. . . Quinton talks a lot about "girlfriend" but his girlfriends
can be either sex. I bet though that we unconsciously do things to steer him
the heterosexual way, just out of habit and conditioning . . Lelia thinks it
would be so cool to have a gay brother. I have always had a lot of gay
friends. . .my two best friends in Louisiana are gay,and one of them married
Bryan and I. I was teasing my husband, because according to Dr. Laura, he
should have been very very leary of me, with my gay friends and independent
lifestyle. Before I was married, I used to go to the gay bars with my friends
and was "looking" but it just was not for me. You either are or you aren't. I
just loved being around my friends so much, and thought. .. well, maybe I
could be, but I was not. <BG> Good question.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>Well..since I'm offending people...No offense here!
here's another topic: Have any of you
>folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you talk topeople towards G/L/BI/TG people.I used to think that I would have to go
>them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
>terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
>I think the only thing that would bother me is the response of ignorant
through a period of accepting a different lifestyle (not the sex part but
the lack of kids, marriage etc) then I realized that the above worries have
nothing to do with being gay. I have relationships with many people who have
a different sexual orientation than I do - some with children some without.
I tend to think of the decision to have children or not as seperate from
sexual identity So that worry is gone. Mostly my concerns would be related
to the laws in our country and the lack of protection/ decision making
rights. Hopefully by the time my children are old enough to make lifetime
commitments the discrimination will have ended.
Elissa
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/01 7:24:43 AM, KathrynJB@... writes:
<< Perhaps we accidentally brought in the term "arranged marriages," which
seems
to bother some people. >>
I didn't bring it up accidently. And if it's bothering anyone, that's a
bummer. It's interesting that those who had already read about it are not
the conservative Christians in the group.
Information is free. (Big cornerstone of unschooling, isn't it?)
I've lived in New Mexico for over 40 years, but there are people who know
more about New Mexico than I do, in one way or another, who maybe have never
even been here, because they have a particular interest in underground
mineral rights or Civil War history or the continental divide or federal
lands and they could EASILY tell me things about New Mexico, past or present,
that I never knew.
When they created a new county a few years ago, they did NOT send post cards
to every former public-school student of New Mexico history. The "there are
32 counties" *truth* dissolved, but if you weren't paying attention you
didn't know that.
If a person doesn't want to keep up with current events that's fine. I
rarely watch the news (but did happen to catch the unveiling of the
O'BinLaden video yesterday morning, by chance), and so if my German e-mail
pal knows much more about the war in Afghanistan than I do, I don't argue
with him a bit!
But I do keep an eye on conservative homeschoolers, the paranoid leaders of
whom are not going to send a postcard to every fundamentalist Christian when
they get an urgent communique from the Holy Spirit about what ELSE has become
sin.
Seven or eight years ago when homeschooling was a smaller pond and we had to
hear directly the news of the Christian right, instead of having to go
separate places to catch up, there was a movement/fad/practice of dads giving
pubescent girls a ring. A dinner, discussion, some oaths and a ring. She
would promise to keep herself pure, and the dad would give her a ring to
symbolize her burgeoning virgin womanhood. The proponents thought it was
sweet. I thought it was creepy, and smacked of incest and future abuse of
various sorts. It's bad enough, to my thinking, that fundamentalist
Christians (and my family is from West Texas, Southern Baptist and Nazarene,
lest anyone's comforting herself with the idea that I don't have a clue)
like to think they own their children, without having the females submit to
their daddies ceremonially.
Sandra
<< Perhaps we accidentally brought in the term "arranged marriages," which
seems
to bother some people. >>
I didn't bring it up accidently. And if it's bothering anyone, that's a
bummer. It's interesting that those who had already read about it are not
the conservative Christians in the group.
Information is free. (Big cornerstone of unschooling, isn't it?)
I've lived in New Mexico for over 40 years, but there are people who know
more about New Mexico than I do, in one way or another, who maybe have never
even been here, because they have a particular interest in underground
mineral rights or Civil War history or the continental divide or federal
lands and they could EASILY tell me things about New Mexico, past or present,
that I never knew.
When they created a new county a few years ago, they did NOT send post cards
to every former public-school student of New Mexico history. The "there are
32 counties" *truth* dissolved, but if you weren't paying attention you
didn't know that.
If a person doesn't want to keep up with current events that's fine. I
rarely watch the news (but did happen to catch the unveiling of the
O'BinLaden video yesterday morning, by chance), and so if my German e-mail
pal knows much more about the war in Afghanistan than I do, I don't argue
with him a bit!
But I do keep an eye on conservative homeschoolers, the paranoid leaders of
whom are not going to send a postcard to every fundamentalist Christian when
they get an urgent communique from the Holy Spirit about what ELSE has become
sin.
Seven or eight years ago when homeschooling was a smaller pond and we had to
hear directly the news of the Christian right, instead of having to go
separate places to catch up, there was a movement/fad/practice of dads giving
pubescent girls a ring. A dinner, discussion, some oaths and a ring. She
would promise to keep herself pure, and the dad would give her a ring to
symbolize her burgeoning virgin womanhood. The proponents thought it was
sweet. I thought it was creepy, and smacked of incest and future abuse of
various sorts. It's bad enough, to my thinking, that fundamentalist
Christians (and my family is from West Texas, Southern Baptist and Nazarene,
lest anyone's comforting herself with the idea that I don't have a clue)
like to think they own their children, without having the females submit to
their daddies ceremonially.
Sandra
Susan McGlohn
I just want to say that I am truly sorry if I came off
as defensive and tetchy. That's a bad place for any
newbie to be, and I really am not that way.
I realize that many things different groups of
Christians practice can be viewed as extremism, and I
do try to avoid that, actually. Rather than try to
explain again what I meant in my previous posts and
messing up again, I'll let that topic drop, ok?
In fact, I am considered "extreme" for unschooling and
don't fit in there either.
I've stopped trying to find the perfect group because
I finally realized (about at age 30) that it doesn't
matter if everyone thinks/acts/worships like me, and
that different circles of friends can fulfill
different needs in my life.
Since our daughter is only just 12, we have not hit
that dating game yet. We're still in the talking
about it stage. Far from an expert on courtship or
anything else in that area, I won't try to explain any
of it.
Anyway, please accept my apology!
=====
{}
Susan c[__]
eclectichomeschooler@...
AOL IM: WifeToVegman
my web page:
http://theeclectichomeschooler.homestead.com/TheEclecticHomeshooler.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
as defensive and tetchy. That's a bad place for any
newbie to be, and I really am not that way.
I realize that many things different groups of
Christians practice can be viewed as extremism, and I
do try to avoid that, actually. Rather than try to
explain again what I meant in my previous posts and
messing up again, I'll let that topic drop, ok?
In fact, I am considered "extreme" for unschooling and
don't fit in there either.
I've stopped trying to find the perfect group because
I finally realized (about at age 30) that it doesn't
matter if everyone thinks/acts/worships like me, and
that different circles of friends can fulfill
different needs in my life.
Since our daughter is only just 12, we have not hit
that dating game yet. We're still in the talking
about it stage. Far from an expert on courtship or
anything else in that area, I won't try to explain any
of it.
Anyway, please accept my apology!
=====
{}
Susan c[__]
eclectichomeschooler@...
AOL IM: WifeToVegman
my web page:
http://theeclectichomeschooler.homestead.com/TheEclecticHomeshooler.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
zenmomma *
>Nope. As in, nope it wouldn't bother us if they were gay or lesbian. Yup, as
>Well..since I'm offending people...here's another topic: Have any of you
>folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you talk to
>them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
>terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
in yes the topic has come up from time to time. It's always from the kids
asking a question. We answer them directly and honestly according to our
beliefs. Those beliefs would include allowing people to be Who They Are
without criticism or judgment. We have many gay/lesbian friends, so that may
help the discussions and understanding.
Also, on the topic of teens and sexuality I have a late comment. I believe
there's a difference between sexuality and promiscuity. To me, if my child
chooses to be in an intimate relationship, it does not automatically mean
they are being promiscuous. There are experiences that I had before I was
married that I would not trade for the world. I'm sure my dh feels the same
way. It was part of our path. Part of what makes us who we are now.
Sometimes that path led to intimacy. I do realize though, that there are
health dangers now that weren't there way back when I was young.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
KT
> Well..since I'm offending people...here's another topic: Have any of youI used to be horrified at the thought. But I grew up.
> folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you
> talk to
> them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively
> heterosexual
> terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
It's such a non-issue to us now (and it was a *REAL* biggie to my dh at
one time), that I had to remind myself that the boy who is coming to
spend the tonight with my son lives with his lesbian mothers. I just
say that to show you how far we've come from "horrified".
Ain't I hip? @@ (rolling eyes)
But seriously, I finally just got wise. It's much better for a kid to
just take it for granted that people do things differently than you,
than to live in the fear of the day you might have to *explain*
homosexuality (or alcohol or organic food <g>) to them. I mean, my
son's life is different from the norm as an autodidact....he frequently
says to other people, "I do it my way, you can do it yours." Why should
I teach him there's only one way to be a family or have sex or whatever?
It would, though, bring up a whole slew of new opportunities to learn
about each other, if I found out one of my sons (no girls here) was gay.
And it would be a surprise, as they've both had girlfriends!
Withholding any speculation about the 8 year old at this point.
Karen
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/2001 9:24:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,
KathrynJB@... writes:
My 13 year old straight son is right now questioning religion (Christianity
in particular) because one of his best friends is a lesbian (she's 14). His
concern comes from her (Christian) parents' blatant homophobia and my
aetheism. Her parents (although they haven't been informed of either of these
things) believe that Kim and I are both going straight to hell. Why should
this sweet, precious person be doomed to hell? (Not to mention his mother?)
He's always known that I'm an aetheist (his dad isn't), and several of our
adult friends are gay. He can't believe that a parent would "disown" a child
because of something that doesn't even involve the parents (He said," She
doesn't even WANT to sleep with her mom!" LOL). He's very concerned for her
and has even offered to be her "escort" to parties if she felt it would make
her home-life easier (she is trying to tell her parents, but that's GOT to be
difficult!).
Anyway, it's been a huge topic of discussion around here for years---and even
more so now that Kim has confided in him and me. I would not wish
homosexuality on my children because of the problems they'd face in society
(not to mention health-wise), but I would be VERY supportive if either boy
were. We generally DO talk about the future in heterosexual terms because I
don't think either IS gay, but I really know they understand we are easy
either way.
BTW, didn't you mention in a much earlier post that Beth was involved with
the Girl Scouts? How does THAT work?
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
KathrynJB@... writes:
>Kathryn,
> Well..since I'm offending people...here's another topic: Have any of you
> folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you talk to
>
> them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
> terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
>
>
My 13 year old straight son is right now questioning religion (Christianity
in particular) because one of his best friends is a lesbian (she's 14). His
concern comes from her (Christian) parents' blatant homophobia and my
aetheism. Her parents (although they haven't been informed of either of these
things) believe that Kim and I are both going straight to hell. Why should
this sweet, precious person be doomed to hell? (Not to mention his mother?)
He's always known that I'm an aetheist (his dad isn't), and several of our
adult friends are gay. He can't believe that a parent would "disown" a child
because of something that doesn't even involve the parents (He said," She
doesn't even WANT to sleep with her mom!" LOL). He's very concerned for her
and has even offered to be her "escort" to parties if she felt it would make
her home-life easier (she is trying to tell her parents, but that's GOT to be
difficult!).
Anyway, it's been a huge topic of discussion around here for years---and even
more so now that Kim has confided in him and me. I would not wish
homosexuality on my children because of the problems they'd face in society
(not to mention health-wise), but I would be VERY supportive if either boy
were. We generally DO talk about the future in heterosexual terms because I
don't think either IS gay, but I really know they understand we are easy
either way.
BTW, didn't you mention in a much earlier post that Beth was involved with
the Girl Scouts? How does THAT work?
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
KT
> Seven or eight years ago when homeschooling was a smaller pond and weStill happening. Just heard about another one. Dear friends of mine
> had to
> hear directly the news of the Christian right, instead of having to go
> separate places to catch up, there was a movement/fad/practice of dads
> giving
> pubescent girls a ring. A dinner, discussion, some oaths and a ring.
> She
> would promise to keep herself pure, and the dad would give her a ring to
> symbolize her burgeoning virgin womanhood.
Kept my mouth shut, yet again. :P
Karen
bobalinga
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., KT <Tuck@m...> wrote:
Christian right. In England about 1% home educates for religious
reasons, religion is almost never mentioned at groups because it is
not really a big deal in English life.
I was pretty shocked coming to america and seeing all these different
camps of home-schoolers sniping at each other.
Surely unschooling should teach us to be tolernat of other people's
choices, even if we think they are wrtong.
I am vegan and pagan yet I mix with meat-eaters and funamentalist
Christians. In fact my best and first freind in America is a
fundementalist Christian. What unites us is our regard for our
children which means that we home-school.
Finding things that unite us is far more important than critising
differences.
Shyrley who should be getting ready to get on a plane to England..
> > Seven or eight years ago when homeschooling was a smaller pondand we
> > had toto go
> > hear directly the news of the Christian right, instead of having
> > separate places to catch up, there was a movement/fad/practice ofdads
> > givingring.
> > pubescent girls a ring. A dinner, discussion, some oaths and a
> > Shering to
> > would promise to keep herself pure, and the dad would give her a
> > symbolize her burgeoning virgin womanhood.mine
>
>
> Still happening. Just heard about another one. Dear friends of
>There seems to be a lot of antagonism among unschoolers against the
> Kept my mouth shut, yet again. :P
Christian right. In England about 1% home educates for religious
reasons, religion is almost never mentioned at groups because it is
not really a big deal in English life.
I was pretty shocked coming to america and seeing all these different
camps of home-schoolers sniping at each other.
Surely unschooling should teach us to be tolernat of other people's
choices, even if we think they are wrtong.
I am vegan and pagan yet I mix with meat-eaters and funamentalist
Christians. In fact my best and first freind in America is a
fundementalist Christian. What unites us is our regard for our
children which means that we home-school.
Finding things that unite us is far more important than critising
differences.
Shyrley who should be getting ready to get on a plane to England..
>
> Karen
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/01 9:25:35 AM, shyrley@... writes:
<< There seems to be a lot of antagonism among unschoolers against the
Christian right. >>
AbThere seems to be a lot of antagonism among unschoolers against the
Christian right.out 10% of the antagonism of the Christian right against
unschooling.
HSLDA won't sign on an unschooling family. Some of the legislature they've
pushed through is THEIR kind of homeschooling (with a strict curriculum,
testing regularly).
The Church of England isn't at all like the southern U.S. Protestant
independents/Baptist/splinter-sect insanity we have to deal with here.
<<Finding things that unite us is far more important than critising
differences.>>
Probably so, but if people unite with others they don't really understand it
can bite them in the butt later on.
The assumption of many people, especially in the South, is that homeschooling
equals conservativism, so many of us who are not conservative Christian
curriculum-buying homeschoolers get the slew of irritating e-mail and
real-mail and requests to march in pro-life marches (since we're
homeschoolers of course we'd like to run some doctors out of the state), or
to vote Republican, or to vote against whatever they tell us to vote against
or to call senators or send post cards with the text they mail us to send.
It's embarrassing.
It's embarrassing to be a homeschooler sometimes, from being associated with
all that.
Sandra
<< There seems to be a lot of antagonism among unschoolers against the
Christian right. >>
AbThere seems to be a lot of antagonism among unschoolers against the
Christian right.out 10% of the antagonism of the Christian right against
unschooling.
HSLDA won't sign on an unschooling family. Some of the legislature they've
pushed through is THEIR kind of homeschooling (with a strict curriculum,
testing regularly).
The Church of England isn't at all like the southern U.S. Protestant
independents/Baptist/splinter-sect insanity we have to deal with here.
<<Finding things that unite us is far more important than critising
differences.>>
Probably so, but if people unite with others they don't really understand it
can bite them in the butt later on.
The assumption of many people, especially in the South, is that homeschooling
equals conservativism, so many of us who are not conservative Christian
curriculum-buying homeschoolers get the slew of irritating e-mail and
real-mail and requests to march in pro-life marches (since we're
homeschoolers of course we'd like to run some doctors out of the state), or
to vote Republican, or to vote against whatever they tell us to vote against
or to call senators or send post cards with the text they mail us to send.
It's embarrassing.
It's embarrassing to be a homeschooler sometimes, from being associated with
all that.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/01 9:24:43 AM, KathrynJB@... writes:
<< Have any of you folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian?
When you talk to them about potential mates or futures, do you use
exclusively heterosexual
terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian. >>
Yup, I have. I use the word "partner" since I have a boy and a girl. Nope,
it wouldn't.
Sharon
<< Have any of you folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian?
When you talk to them about potential mates or futures, do you use
exclusively heterosexual
terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian. >>
Yup, I have. I use the word "partner" since I have a boy and a girl. Nope,
it wouldn't.
Sharon
Joseph Fuerst
I was recently discussing how to mark the occassion of dd's first period
with a friend. She was thrilled to explain her plan of buying a promise
ring. She says she and her hubby will present it to dd when she gets her
first period. And they will require her to make a promise to them,
herself, and God, to remain pure until marriage. They called it a promise
ring. Is the movement called "Love Can Wait" or something?? Anyway, I
was apalled that they would force this child to promise
something....especially in the throes of having her first period.
I would think this type of promise could only count if it came of one's
own volition....like any promise really. Actually, when I see that in
type, I realize I'm not big on "promises" in general. After working in
geriatrics, you see too many families broken up over breaking the promise
of "never" putting mom or pop in a nursing facility.
So ....on the topic of honoring the occassion of a first period for a
dd...what have you all done? ANd what about the boys? Any ceremonius ways
to initiate them to adulthood. Many cultures have some ritual....some
pretty barbaric - I'm more interested in no-barbaric, respectful, honoring
type ideas.
S
with a friend. She was thrilled to explain her plan of buying a promise
ring. She says she and her hubby will present it to dd when she gets her
first period. And they will require her to make a promise to them,
herself, and God, to remain pure until marriage. They called it a promise
ring. Is the movement called "Love Can Wait" or something?? Anyway, I
was apalled that they would force this child to promise
something....especially in the throes of having her first period.
I would think this type of promise could only count if it came of one's
own volition....like any promise really. Actually, when I see that in
type, I realize I'm not big on "promises" in general. After working in
geriatrics, you see too many families broken up over breaking the promise
of "never" putting mom or pop in a nursing facility.
So ....on the topic of honoring the occassion of a first period for a
dd...what have you all done? ANd what about the boys? Any ceremonius ways
to initiate them to adulthood. Many cultures have some ritual....some
pretty barbaric - I'm more interested in no-barbaric, respectful, honoring
type ideas.
S
>Seven or eight years ago <snip>there was a movement/fad/practice of dadsgiving
> pubescent girls a ring. A dinner, discussion, some oaths and a ring. SheNazarene,
> would promise to keep herself pure, and the dad would give her a ring to
> symbolize her burgeoning virgin womanhood. The proponents thought it was
> sweet. I thought it was creepy, and smacked of incest and future abuse of
> various sorts. It's bad enough, to my thinking, that fundamentalist
> Christians (and my family is from West Texas, Southern Baptist and
> lest anyone's comforting herself with the idea that I don't have a clue)to
> like to think they own their children, without having the females submit
> their daddies ceremonially.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Tia Leschke
>It wouldn't bother me at all. But I have wondered just how to bring it up
>Well..since I'm offending people...here's another topic: Have any of you
>folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you talk to
>them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
>terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
in a way that says I don't expect that you are gay but it wouldn't bother
me if you were.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Susan McGlohn
--- Joseph Fuerst <fuerst@...> wrote:
christians. There was a huge article about something
similar in Time Magazine (I think) a couple years ago.
Anyway, I
conviction comes from the heart, and the parent cannot
force it on their child.
kind of "missed" the opportunity. I decided that
instead we would do something for her 13th birthday
and I look forward to seeing what others have planned,
since I have 10 months to get ready :-)
There is a pagan web site, I can't think of what it
was called now, that I was surfing that has really
good ideas. It was even more ritualistic than
Sandra's friends' little ceremony, but the difference
was that it wasn't requiring anything of the child,
just acknowledging her first step into adulthood.
ANd what about the
only 10, and isn't showing any signs yet.
One thing I have seen was when my nephew turned 13,
his parents threw a huge party, but then had the
adults, men in particular, who had known him since
childhood talk about how they had seen him mature and
give voice to positive character qualities they had
seen in evidence in his life. They also shared advice
and encouraging words with him. There wasn't a dry
eye in the house by the time it was done, but you
could tell my nephew was walking 3 inches taller by
the end.
It was a really nice time. And it was really great to
see the men-folk opening up in front of everyone that
way.
=====
{}
Susan c[__]
eclectichomeschooler@...
AOL IM: WifeToVegman
my web page:
http://theeclectichomeschooler.homestead.com/TheEclecticHomeshooler.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> I was recently discussing how to mark the occassionYes, and it includes not just the conservative
> of dd's first period
> with a friend. She was thrilled to explain her plan
> of buying a promise
> ring. She says she and her hubby will present it to
> dd when she gets her
> first period. And they will require her to make a
> promise to them,
> herself, and God, to remain pure until marriage.
> They called it a promise
> ring. Is the movement called "Love Can Wait" or
> something??
christians. There was a huge article about something
similar in Time Magazine (I think) a couple years ago.
Anyway, I
> was apalled that they would force this child toMost Christians I know realize that this type of
> promise
> something....especially in the throes of having her
> first period.
> I would think this type of promise could only
> count if it came of one's
> own volition....like any promise really. Actually,
> when I see that in
> type, I realize I'm not big on "promises" in
> general.
conviction comes from the heart, and the parent cannot
force it on their child.
> So ....on the topic of honoring the occassion ofMy daughter surprised us by starting at age 10, so we
> a first period for a
> dd...what have you all done?
kind of "missed" the opportunity. I decided that
instead we would do something for her 13th birthday
and I look forward to seeing what others have planned,
since I have 10 months to get ready :-)
There is a pagan web site, I can't think of what it
was called now, that I was surfing that has really
good ideas. It was even more ritualistic than
Sandra's friends' little ceremony, but the difference
was that it wasn't requiring anything of the child,
just acknowledging her first step into adulthood.
ANd what about the
> boys? Any ceremonius waysWe are even farther away from this since Andrew is
> to initiate them to adulthood. Many cultures have
> some ritual....some
> pretty barbaric - I'm more interested in
> no-barbaric, respectful, honoring
> type ideas.
only 10, and isn't showing any signs yet.
One thing I have seen was when my nephew turned 13,
his parents threw a huge party, but then had the
adults, men in particular, who had known him since
childhood talk about how they had seen him mature and
give voice to positive character qualities they had
seen in evidence in his life. They also shared advice
and encouraging words with him. There wasn't a dry
eye in the house by the time it was done, but you
could tell my nephew was walking 3 inches taller by
the end.
It was a really nice time. And it was really great to
see the men-folk opening up in front of everyone that
way.
=====
{}
Susan c[__]
eclectichomeschooler@...
AOL IM: WifeToVegman
my web page:
http://theeclectichomeschooler.homestead.com/TheEclecticHomeshooler.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Susan Bundlie
<<The assumption of many people, especially in the South, is that
homeschooling
equals conservativism, so many of us who are not conservative Christian
curriculum-buying homeschoolers get the slew of irritating e-mail and
real-mail and requests to march in pro-life marches....It's embarrassing to
be a homeschooler sometimes, from being associated with
all that.>>
I've been embarrassed for a long time now when the mailman brings that type
of stuff to our house. I don't know why I care what the mailman thinks, but
sometimes I feel like stopping his little truck and telling him what sort of
homeschoolers we really are.
Susan
homeschooling
equals conservativism, so many of us who are not conservative Christian
curriculum-buying homeschoolers get the slew of irritating e-mail and
real-mail and requests to march in pro-life marches....It's embarrassing to
be a homeschooler sometimes, from being associated with
all that.>>
I've been embarrassed for a long time now when the mailman brings that type
of stuff to our house. I don't know why I care what the mailman thinks, but
sometimes I feel like stopping his little truck and telling him what sort of
homeschoolers we really are.
Susan
Tia Leschke
>But it *is* a big deal to many North American Christians, to the point
>There seems to be a lot of antagonism among unschoolers against the
>Christian right. In England about 1% home educates for religious
>reasons, religion is almost never mentioned at groups because it is
>not really a big deal in English life.
where *some* of them (the leader of HSLDA comes to mind) would like to live
in a theocracy. Since I *don't* want to live in a theocracy, I feel the
need to speak out against some of what they do. It isn't that I don't want
them to live that way, but that I don't want to.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Cindy
KathrynJB@... wrote:
really didn't express any interest in women until he was 24 or so. I
wondered if he were gay and hesitant to talk about it. My only feeling
about it was sadness that he might have had a tougher life to live
given the homophobia that existing in our culture. I have and had a
number of gay and lesbian friends and I know how hard it can be for
them to meet potential partners. I've seen the look of relief on
their faces when they realized that I "knew" and would remain their friend.
I wish we lived in a society where everyone could be open about their
sexual preference(s) without fear of rejection - or in some places fear
for their lives.
My younger children use hetersexual terms for talking about future
partners. I don't know if that means anything. Alex (my 4 year old)
isn't so sure he wants to get married. Megan (my 6 year old) definitely
wants to become a mommy - she's very relationship oriented.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
>I have. My son from my first marriage didn't have a girlfriend and
> Well..since I'm offending people...here's another topic: Have any of you
> folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you talk to
> them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
> terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
>
really didn't express any interest in women until he was 24 or so. I
wondered if he were gay and hesitant to talk about it. My only feeling
about it was sadness that he might have had a tougher life to live
given the homophobia that existing in our culture. I have and had a
number of gay and lesbian friends and I know how hard it can be for
them to meet potential partners. I've seen the look of relief on
their faces when they realized that I "knew" and would remain their friend.
I wish we lived in a society where everyone could be open about their
sexual preference(s) without fear of rejection - or in some places fear
for their lives.
My younger children use hetersexual terms for talking about future
partners. I don't know if that means anything. Alex (my 4 year old)
isn't so sure he wants to get married. Megan (my 6 year old) definitely
wants to become a mommy - she's very relationship oriented.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
[email protected]
You know when I first read this question, I thought to myself, "How many
people are going to answer this if it truly would bother them?" I think that
most of the people on this list are very openminded so the likelyhood of
answering that they would be bothered and why is slim. For those it would
upset, I think they would hesitate to answer in opposition so as to avoid
offending or hurting the askers feelings. Did anyone else wonder this?
Elissa
people are going to answer this if it truly would bother them?" I think that
most of the people on this list are very openminded so the likelyhood of
answering that they would be bothered and why is slim. For those it would
upset, I think they would hesitate to answer in opposition so as to avoid
offending or hurting the askers feelings. Did anyone else wonder this?
Elissa
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/2001 11:55:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
homeschooler . . . I can just see it in peoples reactions that they think I
am this right wing Christian. If they get to know me better, they realize
that this is not true, but at first, it is assumed. . . and I can tell by the
comments they make, etc. And school at homers automatically assume I will
want to join up with their Christian group because I say I homeschool. When I
mention unschooling. . .they really back off.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> It's embarrassing to be a homeschooler sometimes, from being associated withAbsolutely!!! I KNOW I get pigeonholed so often when I say I am a
> all that.
>
>
homeschooler . . . I can just see it in peoples reactions that they think I
am this right wing Christian. If they get to know me better, they realize
that this is not true, but at first, it is assumed. . . and I can tell by the
comments they make, etc. And school at homers automatically assume I will
want to join up with their Christian group because I say I homeschool. When I
mention unschooling. . .they really back off.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/01 1:22:32 PM, leschke@... writes:
<< But I have wondered just how to bring it up
in a way that says I don't expect that you are gay but it wouldn't bother
me if you were. >>
I said some people find they're attracted to members of their own sex rather
than the opposite sex. I didn't address their preferences either way, but
left it open ended. We have friends who are gay and friends who are not, so
it's not a big issue. Emma didn't realize that Patrick and Jarrod were a gay
couple, although she knew they lived together and had dinner at our house as
a couple -- so when we first talked about this, and she said she didn't know
anyone who was, I offered them up. She said, "Oh!". She nodded, and went
about her day.
Sharon
<< But I have wondered just how to bring it up
in a way that says I don't expect that you are gay but it wouldn't bother
me if you were. >>
I said some people find they're attracted to members of their own sex rather
than the opposite sex. I didn't address their preferences either way, but
left it open ended. We have friends who are gay and friends who are not, so
it's not a big issue. Emma didn't realize that Patrick and Jarrod were a gay
couple, although she knew they lived together and had dinner at our house as
a couple -- so when we first talked about this, and she said she didn't know
anyone who was, I offered them up. She said, "Oh!". She nodded, and went
about her day.
Sharon
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/01 1:28:25 PM, ElissaJC@... writes:
<< For those it would
upset, I think they would hesitate to answer in opposition so as to avoid
offending or hurting the askers feelings. Did anyone else wonder this? >>
Well, we can second guess opinions and statements from everyone on
everything. It can be crazy-making, so until I really get to know someone
and hear a nuance which tells me something is off, I accept posts at face
value.
Sharon
<< For those it would
upset, I think they would hesitate to answer in opposition so as to avoid
offending or hurting the askers feelings. Did anyone else wonder this? >>
Well, we can second guess opinions and statements from everyone on
everything. It can be crazy-making, so until I really get to know someone
and hear a nuance which tells me something is off, I accept posts at face
value.
Sharon
Pam Hartley
Have thought about it, wouldn't bother me.
Heck, sometimes when I'm arguing with my husband, I wish *I* were a lesbian.
;)
Pam
----------
From: KathrynJB@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Stepping in the hornet's nest
Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001, 6:21 AM
Well..since I'm offending people...here's another topic: Have any of you
folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you talk to
them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heck, sometimes when I'm arguing with my husband, I wish *I* were a lesbian.
;)
Pam
----------
From: KathrynJB@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Stepping in the hornet's nest
Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001, 6:21 AM
Well..since I'm offending people...here's another topic: Have any of you
folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you talk to
them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
on 12/14/01 9:26 AM, Joseph Fuerst at fuerst@... wrote:
name and the date below the stain, and have it tastefully framed.
Nancy
> So ....on the topic of honoring the occassion of a first period for aI plan to save the sheet where he has his first wet dream, embroider his
> dd...what have you all done? ANd what about the boys?
name and the date below the stain, and have it tastefully framed.
Nancy
Nancy Wooton
on 12/14/01 6:59 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
biology, three kingdoms were added to the classification system.
(Writing this email created an opportunity to explain that system to my 11
y.o. son, and to peruse the DK "Dictionary of Nature" for a few minutes. We
also discussed the correct pronunciation of "fungi." You can't get mom off
her hobby horse, it seems!)
Nancy
> When they created a new county a few years ago, they did NOT send post cardsI recall my surprise to discover that, in the years since high school
> to every former public-school student of New Mexico history. The "there are
> 32 counties" *truth* dissolved, but if you weren't paying attention you
> didn't know that.
biology, three kingdoms were added to the classification system.
(Writing this email created an opportunity to explain that system to my 11
y.o. son, and to peruse the DK "Dictionary of Nature" for a few minutes. We
also discussed the correct pronunciation of "fungi." You can't get mom off
her hobby horse, it seems!)
Nancy
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/01 11:28:19 AM, ElissaJC@... writes:
<< For those it would
upset, I think they would hesitate to answer in opposition so as to avoid
offending or hurting the askers feelings. Did anyone else wonder this? >>
For those it would upset, there are probably 100 lists they could go to to
discuss how terrible it would be if their kids were sinful perverts in need
of prayer and reprogramming. I don't expect it to happen here.
I also don't think that on an unschooling list we need to be walking the
middle of all roads.
Sandra
<< For those it would
upset, I think they would hesitate to answer in opposition so as to avoid
offending or hurting the askers feelings. Did anyone else wonder this? >>
For those it would upset, there are probably 100 lists they could go to to
discuss how terrible it would be if their kids were sinful perverts in need
of prayer and reprogramming. I don't expect it to happen here.
I also don't think that on an unschooling list we need to be walking the
middle of all roads.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/01 11:41:55 AM, sharonve@... writes:
<< so when we first talked about this, and she said she didn't know
anyone who was, I offered them up. She said, "Oh!". >>
One of the first weddings my boys attended and THE first one Holly did was an
all-weekend wedding of two female friends, one I had known since she was nine
and I was 18.
Marty made a tack comment one day about gays. I said it wasn't very nice,
and he said well he didn't know any, and I said, "Well there's Mark."
"Mark's not gay!" he said.
We discussed why it hadn't occurred to him Mark wasn't gay (has an ex-wife,
wears macho clothes), and why we hadn't said so (it didn't matter). And I
named others he didn't know as well, but knew them by name and face.
It was an important moment, for him to know that he DID know, and it didn't
matter, and they were just a normal part of his life up to that point (and
would be thereafter).
Sandra
<< so when we first talked about this, and she said she didn't know
anyone who was, I offered them up. She said, "Oh!". >>
One of the first weddings my boys attended and THE first one Holly did was an
all-weekend wedding of two female friends, one I had known since she was nine
and I was 18.
Marty made a tack comment one day about gays. I said it wasn't very nice,
and he said well he didn't know any, and I said, "Well there's Mark."
"Mark's not gay!" he said.
We discussed why it hadn't occurred to him Mark wasn't gay (has an ex-wife,
wears macho clothes), and why we hadn't said so (it didn't matter). And I
named others he didn't know as well, but knew them by name and face.
It was an important moment, for him to know that he DID know, and it didn't
matter, and they were just a normal part of his life up to that point (and
would be thereafter).
Sandra
Joseph Fuerst
> Most Christians I know realize that this type ofI plan to try and talk with this friend more on this. She's a person who's
> conviction comes from the heart, and the parent cannot
> force it on their child.
been a great friend despite the fact that we frequently end up 'agreeing to
disagree'. I do know plenty of people who would never consider coercing
their children into this, but would encourage and support this. I think
these people actually have more confidence in their children's abilities to
make good decisions for themselves.
Another area my friend disagrees with me is the Harry Potter series which
she has 'forbidden' her children to read......I figure here the rebellion of
her children may end up a good thing; however, unfortunate that the kids
will feel some guilt and will not have their parents to discuss it with.
> One thing I have seen was when my nephew turned 13,This sounds really great!
> his parents threw a huge party, but then had the
> adults, men in particular, who had known him since
> childhood talk about how they had seen him mature and
> give voice to positive character qualities they had
> seen in evidence in his life. They also shared advice
> and encouraging words with him. There wasn't a dry
> eye in the house by the time it was done, but you
> could tell my nephew was walking 3 inches taller by
> the end.
>
> It was a really nice time. And it was really great to
> see the men-folk opening up in front of everyone that
> way.
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/01 1:18:53 PM, Felicitas@... writes:
<< I recall my surprise to discover that, in the years since high school
biology, three kingdoms were added to the classification system. >>
And without even POLLING all mammals, or even those who got good grades in
"Life Sciences," they went and let a platypus be a mammal!! So we have new
relatives AND the definition of "mammal" changes.
Harrrumph.
<< I recall my surprise to discover that, in the years since high school
biology, three kingdoms were added to the classification system. >>
And without even POLLING all mammals, or even those who got good grades in
"Life Sciences," they went and let a platypus be a mammal!! So we have new
relatives AND the definition of "mammal" changes.
Harrrumph.