Jen

I am new to the group and have been reading the list every day. I feel comfortable posting this question about my 4 year old son. My husband and I have recently made the decision to move more toward a peaceful parenting style (rather than our previous Love & Logic), and it's been difficult. Both of us were raised in an authoritative way, him especially. I have good days and bad days, and I find myself yelling more than before because I am not sure how to just "let things go" such as my 4 year old hitting his sister, looking at me for reactions, damaging things on purpose, etc. Going from Love & Logic (with consequences) to no consequences has been confusing for my son. I think it's made both him and I "crankier".

He's always been a sensitive child...enjoys playing by himself or with us, doesn't like "sharing" any of his things when we go anywhere (but he won't leave his things in the car). He really does whine incessantly...it doesn't matter what it is, he doesn't know how to ask for something without whining (or being reminded that it sounds nicer when he doesn't whine). When adults ask him questions, he all of a sudden forgets how to talk to people and says things like "poop" or "No!" really loud...it makes me worry. I try very hard to get him and his sister (she's 2) out and about to meet new friends (especially other unschoolers in our area), and he barely warms up, if ever. I think there's one or two people in his life that he'll play and interact with (kids I mean), but we don't live close to them, so it's harder to get together often.

I do remember being young and I was very shy, so I understand how he feels, but I don't understand the anger part of it...he treats other people very poorly, no matter how they are treating him (everyone is nice to him, and people end up giving him his way to avoid his crying or throwing a tantrum). People try to be nice to him, and he acts as if they are a bother, yet...if they have or do something interesting, he will become their "best friend", all of a sudden opening up, especially if it has to do with some type of toy. He will not share his toys, ever...unless asked to do so (which I have stopped doing), and on our way home yesterday from a friend's house he was telling me that their baby (who is 18 months) is a "bad guy" and he wants him to "go to jail" ... all because the baby did was hold my son's "magic wand"...it's one of those glittery baton things. I tried to explain to him the innocence of babies and toddlers and that he was just curious about his magic wand. I told him next time he can leave his wand in the car, and he seemed ok with that, but the underlying issue still bothered me.

So...I guess I'm just looking for some ways to guide my son along in the social arena...should I continue trying to give him these opportunities to meet new friends, or should I take this as a hint to lay off and let him play by himself more (since that is what it seems like he enjoys the most)? I find I am often making excuses for his negative behavior, and I hate that I do that, but I don't know how else to handle it as I don't want others to think I don't care about how my son is acting. I just don't want him to miss out on the opportunity to form relationships with other kids that are unschooled (and his sister actually enjoys these outings, so I don't want to leave her out)...our neighborhood is very school-centered, so we really have to try hard to find others in our situation, but he never seems very happy to be doing these types of "social" things. Tell me to lay off if you think that's what I should do, I am quite new to all of this and open to anything. :)

Sandra Dodd

-=- I have good days and bad days, and I find myself yelling more than before because I am not sure how to just "let things go" such as my 4 year old hitting his sister, looking at me for reactions, damaging things on purpose, etc. Going from Love & Logic (with consequences) to no consequences has been confusing for my son. I think it's made both him and I "crankier".-=-

This is a serious, honest question that needs an answer, not just a rhetorical question asked to help you think.

Where did you find this advice? "I am not sure how to just "let things go" "
You have it in quotes, "let things go." If you don't want to answer on the list, please write to me on the side.
If someone told you that unschooling is "letting things go," or that mindful parenting was "letting things go," we need to put warning tape around that advice.

I suspect that you have gone too far, too fast, from what you knew and were doing, and your son suspects you've just gone crazy (temporarily, probably) and so he's doing everything he wasn't allowed to do before, to get the experience before you "come back to your senses" and go back to life as he knew it. I could be wrong, but I see it with food, and other things. The more a parent was controlling and saying "no," the further and farther the child goes from the prior requirements and restrictions when she "lets go."

So for starters, remember that he's four, and you created the situation yourselves by winding tighter and tighter on that rubber band that you've just released without a new plan.

For good days and bad days, this is your cure:
http://sandradodd.com/moment

-=- I just don't want him to miss out on the opportunity to form relationships with other kids that are unschooled (and his sister actually enjoys these outings, so I don't want to leave her out)-=-

He;s too young to have needed to go to school, so you're still in "pre-school" time. Don't think so much about school-or-not-school right now, especially as you've recently made a big change in your life.

There can be outings that don't involved trying to make friends. You can model and practice behaviors in places like parks, zoos, museums, malls, fairs, outdoor live music events... Go for what's interesting and what they can see that's new and different for a while, instead of looking for unschoolers. Start looking at learning first, and other things will follow.

http://sandradodd.com/checklist

Put your focus more toward being present. You're looking outward, and to the future, and so you're stumbling over the present moment.

http://sandradodd.com/being

Sandra

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

Alex Polikowsky wrote something a couple of days ago, on another discussion list, and it was so good that I was sent copies by two different moderators of that list, wanting me to save it in a good place. Alex is not a native English speaker, and when she gets excited she makes little mistakes. I'm going to fix a couple before I publish it, but here's the wonderful thing she wrote. I left the first quote because otherwise her poetic rant can't get going:
--------------------------------------

>This is just from the last five minutes, I swear. They are so used to me taking care of it, or just screaming at each other...<<

I am going to make a point and maybe it is not the case of the mom above but it may be the case for others new to unschooling.
I am making this point because I have seen it and I have seen it in person and it does not work and the results are not pretty and have nothing to do with unschooling and being a mindful parent.

Unschooling is not letting children take care of themselves
or work out things alone or without help and guidance,
it is not letting them do whatever they want,
it is not about freedom,
it is not about only saying yes ,
it is not about letting them figure out things by themselves,
it is not child-led learning.

Unschooling takes more,
more presence,
more guidance,
more attention,
more mindfulness,
more connection,
more thinking and questioning,
more choices and better choices.

There are some people that come to unschooling because they read blogs or ideas of families having fun and going about doing fun things
and not being bog down by a curriculum or rules and control.
They may read a little and think all they have to do is not have rules ,
not have curriculum,
not have bedimes,
not have limits in TV, Computers and food.

What they are not reading is all the things an unschooling parent IS doing.
They are sitting and playing computer games with their children, they are
present, attentive , connected, facilitating, guiding, preventing,
strewing, sharing, discovering together, learning right along,
creating a learning environment, interested and interesting.

So if you are new to unschooling Sandra has a good suggestion:
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.

It takes a time to get it. I have been reading and applying unschooling in my home for almost 8 years and I am still getting it.
It takes time to deschool. Most of us has a minimum of 13 years of schooling and some way more.
Ask questions and just sit on the answers, re read them, think about them, read them again, try them, wait a while and watch!

So all this to say that if someone comes to usnchooling thinking that it will be just sitting there while the kids fend for themselves
and it is a piece of cake think again!
That is not to say it is not wonderful and yes easier and more peaceful, but not in the way many think it is.


Alex Polikowsky


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Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 6, 2012, at 7:06 AM, Jen wrote:

> I am not sure how to just "let things go" such as my 4 year old
> hitting his sister, looking at me for reactions, damaging things on purpose, etc.

You've change the rules on him. He's running experiments to see what the new rules are. He tries something, he waits to see what the new reaction is. He's drawing conclusions from the data he's gathering.

What he's concluding may not be what you want him to, though! He may be concluding you don't care what he does.

Why is he hitting? What need is he trying to meet? Is she annoying him? Does she have a toy he wants? Is he hungry? Overstimulated? If he's "just" experimenting to see your reaction, he needs more to keep him occupied ;-)

Change things. Help him get his need met in ways that are respectful of others. If your kids were older, or if you can do it so you can still be near enough to be attuned to them, I'd say draw him or her away to do something fun with you if the energy between them is getting sour.

Damaging things like what? Put away anything you don't want damaged. Be aware of the build up to damaging.


> He's always been a sensitive child...enjoys playing by himself or with us,
> doesn't like "sharing" any of his things when we go anywhere
> (but he won't leave his things in the car).

Would you share your purse with strangers?

It will help to limit how much he's put into situations he isn't ready to handle yet.

When you must, it will help to encourage or arrange for him to bring things that aren't attractive to other kids. Give him choices.

> He really does whine incessantly...it doesn't matter what it is, he doesn't
> know how to ask for something without whining (or being reminded that it
> sounds nicer when he doesn't whine).

Don't see it as not knowing how. He doesn't need taught. He needs to grow older. He needs help meeting needs before he gets so irritated that he whines.

Be more aware. Is whining the only way he can get your attention for his needs? Or was it in the past? If he learned that asking didn't do anything until he started whining, it could be learned to jump right to whining.

And some kids do go through a stage like that. What would make you whine? Being overwhelmed and overtired? And what would make it more irritating for you? And what would help?

> When adults ask him questions, he all of a sudden forgets how to
> talk to people and says things like "poop" or "No!" really loud...it makes me worry.

Did you worry when people talked to him as a baby and he didn't respond?

In 4 years he's gained a huge number of skills. In 4 more years he'll have gained even more. Try to let go of the idea that he has those skills because you taught him. He has them because 1) he's maturing, 2) he's seen and experimented with a variety of ways to solve problems and he's picked up the ones that were useful that he understood how to make work.

You can't force skills on him that he isn't yet able to grasp the need for. And it's unfair to put him in situations where he needs skills he isn't yet able to grasp the need for.


> I try very hard to get him and his sister (she's 2) out and about to
> meet new friends (especially other unschoolers in our area), and he barely warms up, if ever.

And he's trying to communicate with his actions that for right now he doesn't need or want to be with other people.


> People try to be nice to him, and he acts as if they are a bother, yet...
> if they have or do something interesting, he will become their "best friend",
> all of a sudden opening up, especially if it has to do with some type of toy.

He's 4. This is the best he can do. You're expecting way too much from him. You're also expecting that who he is right now is who he will stay unless you fix all the wrongness in him.

Time will take care of a lot. Be sensitive to what he can handle and don't push him into situations you know he can't handle yet. In effect you keep throwing him in the deep end to show him how to swim and then getting upset with him for sinking instead of moving his arms and legs like you keep showing him.

Don't set him up to fail.

> he was telling me that their baby (who is 18 months) is a "bad guy" and
> he wants him to "go to jail" ... all because the baby did was hold my son's "magic wand"

Reflect an understanding of where these words are coming from even if you don't agree with his ideas. In fact, sending the baby to jail is a huge step up from thinking babies should be hit for being "bad" which is still the stage many 4 yos are in.

He will try on many ideas throughout life. Some will be less stellar than others. But as he mentally tests them out he will see the good and bad in them. He will adjust them to get more good than bad. He will throw some away. This is the foundation of learning. Support the process.

If, instead, you criticize his ideas, he'll stop sharing them with you.

You could have said "Yes, babies can be grabby." You could wait for him to continue. You could at some point throw in, one at a time!: "Adults can be a big help in getting something back from them. You can always come and get me. Or you can leave it in the car. Or give it to me if you need to set it down."


> should I take this as a hint to lay off and let him play by himself more (since that is what it seems like he enjoys the most)?


Yes, definitely.

"Listen" to his actions. They're his communication with you. Listen to his words. They will help you see what the world looks like from his point of view.

Don't try to fix his point of view. Give him more information that fits with his view point and his abilities. For example, it's unrealistic to expect a 4 yo who has shown no sign of being able to see others points of view yet to understand the point of view of an 18 mo. That's too big of a leap in understanding. But you can reframe his view in ideas he can grasp, like seeing the behavior he's labeling "bad" and give it a more specific word. Understand that he doesn't mean bad the way you do. He means annoying. He means doing things he doesn't know how to stop. He doesn't have a huge vocabulary! He's got a few labels but loads of ideas. And he'll keep lots of ideas in the "bad" box until he gets better labels for them.

Joyce

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Sandra Dodd

-=-He's 4. This is the best he can do. You're expecting way too much from him. You're also expecting that who he is right now is who he will stay unless you fix all the wrongness in him.-=-

Next Wednesday's unschooling chat is on stages of development.
Mothers who are going to keep their kids home should know some of the things that teachers and psychologists learn in the course of becoming certified/licensed/whatever.

It's irritating to me when people say "you know your child better than anyone" to someone who seems to think infants understand language as well as anyone, and that if a three year old makes a promise, he needs to keep it forever.

Text chats, Wednesdays at noon Mountain Time, 2:00 p.m. Eastern, there's a pattern and you can find your own time.

http://chatnotes-unschooling.blogspot.com/
If you subscribe there (righthand column) you'll get reminders a couple of days before the chat.

Sandra

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Meredith

"Jen" <jenyoust@...> wrote:
>4 year old son

To some extent, I think the difficulties you are having come from unrealistic expectations for a 4yo. He's not going to be able to care about others needs and feelings unless he's feeling pretty warm and fuzzy - his own needs met, and a little more. It's hard for some adults to care about others when their needs aren't met - for a 4yo, it's really, really hard.

>>Going from [consequences] to no consequences has been confusing for my son
*******************

You need to become more proactive and more directly involved so that those things for which you would have assigned consequences aren't happening or become non-issues.

>>hitting his sister, looking at me for reactions, damaging things on purpose
********************

Don't let him hit his sister. Get in the way. Say No! or Stop! If he hits her, swoop her up out of the way and snuggle her until she feels better. But more important than what you do after is what you're doing before. Make sure he has enough: snacks, attention, rest, help, big muscle play, so he's not hauling off hitting people out a lack of internal resources. Same with damaging things: make sure he's getting his needs met, but also put things out of reach that you don't want damamged.

What do you mean "looking at me for reactions"? When he hits or breaks things? Get right down on the floor with your kids most of the time, interacting with them, so you can see what's going on and help things run more smoothly sooner.

>He really does whine incessantly

Don't set him up to use whining to get your attention. Act sooner, preferably proactively. Give him more attention - most of what you write suggests he needs more attention.

>>doesn't like "sharing" any of his things when we go anywhere (but he won't leave his things in the car).
****************

What's the problem, there? That you expect him to share, or that other kids are plaguing him to share and you're not defending him? What sorts of things does he want to bring along? My daughter often likes to bring a project or electronic game as a kind of buffer between her and other people so she can ease in to interacting. It helps her if I shoo others away from her until she's ready to play and then look after her things for her.

>>When adults ask him questions, he all of a sudden forgets how to talk to people and says things like "poop" or "No!" really loud...it makes me worry.
*******************

When Ray was 4 he could cuss like a sailor and did no matter how inappropriate the situation. You wouldn't know it now, at 18, unless he's really mad And in an appropriate situation. So it's not somehow automatic that your son will Always respond inappropriate. Maybe he's feeling stressed by having strange adults accost him with questions - my daughter doesn't like that at all, unless she's had a chance to adjust and sort of brace herself. She's not so wordy, so she's more likely to give someone a dirty look than say "poop" - she's also 10, well past the random-potty-word stage. It might help to deflect people away from your son more in general and give him a chance to settle in and observe before interacting. Some people learn about social situations by watching first, rather than jumping right in - my daughter, for instance - maybe your son is like that.

>>should I take this as a hint to lay off and let him play by himself more ?
*****************

Some of that. But also make sure he has time to ease in to social situations if he needs to - that's tricky if he's playing with just one other kid! It can help for you to play with the other child for awhile, or arrange things so there's something else to do first - have a snack or watch a movie or do a project - to give your guy a chance to warm up without the other kid wondering what the heck is going on.

>>I find I am often making excuses for his negative behavior, and I hate that
*******************

Instead of making excuses, give people gentle information so they don't get their feelings hurt. It may be the same words! But it makes a big difference in how you feel if your focus is on gently offering tools to help people get along rather than "making excuses".

---Meredith

Jen

There are some great ideas here, and it's scary and sad to think that I have probably caused most of this behavior. This is REAL advice, and I'm ready to move forward with it. There are a few points I'd like to make:

When I said "let things go", I did not mean that I don't intervene or do anything at all about the situation ... I simply meant that I no longer enforce a consequence to his actions. I work something out, similar to the suggestions made here. In no way did I ever think that unschooling and this type of parenting was "letting things go" or even easier...it is actually one of the hardest things I've ever learned to implement, and it's very exhausting. That was just a bad choice of words. This has been hard to go from where we were to where we want to be.

The thing is, my son's needs have been getting met, plain and simple. He asks, we work together, or I play...and I have been responding pretty immediately. If anything, I am more cranky because my needs have not been getting met, as I'm still trying to find that balance. The whining could very well have been a previously learned behavior to get my attention, as I used to not respond as quickly as I do now. And, he doesn't progress into it, he immediately asks in a whiny voice. But now I see the situation a little more clearly. It's something I helped to create, and I have to have more empathy for him and this huge change.

I am/was expecting too much from him. I see that now. This culture has embedded into my very psyche that a child should be doing A, B and C by this or that age, and it's very very hard deschooling. It's a process, and all I plan to do is work on it no matter how long it takes. I guess, in the meantime, we should lay off the play dates with friends that don't do this type of parenting, because honestly...around most of my friends, if I were to intervene and take the wand from the 18 month old, they would've been pretty much disgusted. It's something I have to get over. I guess finding the other unschoolers is also a benefit for me because I do enjoy learning by watching and asking questions, plus it gives me a chance to practice with my kids without the fear of the other parents being offended by my new approach...because, believe me, many of my current friends don't understand it at all. In their eyes, the baby of the group gets to have whatever they want by default...even another child's cherished toy. So, I think we'll fly solo for awhile when we go do fun things. We'll just do them as a family for awhile.

Any advice on how to handle that awkward social situation...when a non-peaceful parenting person expects you to reprimand your own child because of something he/she has done to their child? It seems horrible, I know, but it happens ALL THE TIME in every park, in every play center, everywhere, and I guess I'm just confused as to how to handle that, because this type of parenting (peaceful) is the minority from what I've seen.

When I read my message again, I really did sound very negative and whiny myself (gee, wonder where he gets it from?), but I really wanted solid answers, so I just threw it all in. I'm glad I did, because this gives me a good starting point.

schuyliz2

>
> The thing is, my son's needs have been getting met, plain and simple. He asks, we work together, or I play...and I have been responding pretty immediately.

_____________
Being proactive will work better, more effectively and leave him less needy. Don't wait for him to come to you with a need, or to turn to you when you are near. Be nearer and more aware of his needs. In a blog post(http://learninghappens.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/unschooling-is-not-child-led-learning/) Pam Sorooshian wrote this about unschooling:
Unschooling is more like a dance between partners who are so perfectly in synch with each other that it is hard to tell who is leading. The partners are sensitive to each others' little indications, little movements, slight shifts and they respond. Sometimes one leads and sometimes the other.

She was writing about the term child-led, but as an idea, an image to hold in your mind's eye, being your son's dancing partner, feeling when he's going to move one way or another and being prepared to move with him, is apt when thinking about being proactive, being responsive to his needs before he knows he has them.

It takes time and a greater focus at the beginning. It takes letting go, a lot, of your needs for down time or personal time or time to sit and chat with other people. But the more you do work to partner with your son, to help him before he needs help, to be with him more, the easier it will get and the less needy the relationship will feel.

Schuyler

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 7, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Jen wrote:

> Any advice on how to handle that awkward social situation...when a
> non-peaceful parenting person expects you to reprimand your own child
> because of something he/she has done to their child?

How is this expressed? Are they saying it directly?

How about apologizing to the injured child, sincerely as you would to your own child, as you would want your child to eventually be able to do himself.

Be the more socially adept member on your and your son's team.

> but it happens ALL THE TIME in every park, in every play center, everywhere,

ALL THE TIME is sounding like not being with him enough. He's having too many opportunities to hurt people when he's showing he's not capable yet of not doing so. All the more reason to avoid play dates where it's likely to happen.

> if I were to intervene and take the wand from the
> 18 month old, they would've been pretty much disgusted.

At that age it's usually easy to distract them with something even better so they give up one thing for the better thing. It's a useful strategy for your son to see.

Joyce

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schuyliz2

<< If anything, I am more cranky because my needs have not been getting met, as I'm still trying to find that balance. >>


Try and really look at what your needs are. Make a real list of them. Needs like making sure you aren't hungry or thirsty or too tired are ones that are more easily met, and actually will help you to better meet their needs.

I remember with absolute clarity the moment when I realised how much my hunger dictated my mood. I was in Toys R Us and started getting grumpy and less than generous with Simon and Linnaea and did a very quick self-check and realised I hadn't eaten for ages. I got the kids to come with me, with absolute reassurance that we would be right back, went to the McDonalds across the parking lot, got a giant order of fries and a coke, ate, and was back to my less grumpy and more generous self.

Make it easier for you to meet those more basic needs. Bring food with you when you are out. Bring food and drink and a blanket for going to the park. Keep a cooler in the car and fill it up for days when you are going to be out more. Stop for ice cream or a quick something from a fast food place when you can feel your own energy levels going down.
As for other needs, needs like time to yourself or a moment's peace, see if you can meet those kinds of needs in glimpses and glances of moments instead of in big swathes of time. Look less for Calgon Moments to take you away and more for 10 seconds of meditation while holding a child on your lap. The time will come when they need you less and you will have lots and lots of time to meet those needs.

Schuyler

Sandra Dodd

-=-That was just a bad choice of words. This has been hard to go from where we were to where we want to be.-=-

It is hard, and there will be confusion for a while, but I think you'll recover.

As to bad choices of words, the reason I asked is that some families do seem to just leave the kids to do whatever they want, and then shrug and say "we're unschoolers." It's a shame they do that. There are kids from those families I wouldn't want in my house at all.

I'm glad it wasn't a slogan some of the questionable unschoolers had fed you. So if it's your own choice of words, the danger of bad word choices is that people often think in words, especially in a situation where they're changing what they did before to something new. And so the words and phrases and descriptions you have in your mind can send you in a bad direction, or keep you from seeing clearly.

-=-honestly...around most of my friends, if I were to intervene and take the wand from the 18 month old, they would've been pretty much disgusted. It's something I have to get over.-=-

I would be disgusted with it myself. If I were there, I would see if your son would go with me to see something interesting on the other side of the park, and let that baby play with that wand.

But if I were the parent, I wouldn't have let a child take a toy out of the car that he wasn't willing to share. "Let's take some toys to share," I used to say when we were packing up to go to our park day. We had sand toys, jump ropes, balls, bubbles... things specifically for sharing.

The problem isn't that your son was selfish or the baby wanted the wand. The problem was that the wand had been taken to the park when it wasn't for sharing.

-=-In their eyes, the baby of the group gets to have whatever they want by default...even another child's cherished toy. -=-

Yeah... cherished toys shouldn't be in the scenario in the first place.

Sandra

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sheeboo2

---- He will not share his toys, ever...unless asked to do so (which I have stopped doing)<snip>I told him next time he can leave his wand in the car, and he seemed ok with that, but the underlying issue still bothered me.--------

Something that may be worth looking at is how you're phrasing these suggestions. Leaving treasured toys in the car could sound like a punishment if phrased in such a way that it highlights his unwillingness to share. Phrased as you helping him protect his things from grimy baby hands, however, re-frames your suggestion as coming from a place of understanding his aversion and partnership to help him avoid an uncomfortable situation *for him*.

Something else which we found helpful during the time Noor was unwilling to share beloved toys, was to make a special comfy place for them in the car. We'd set them up so they could look out the window, or in a bed of sorts on the seat, with various accoutrements to keep them happy in her absence. I'd reassure her that we could come visit them anytime she wanted to, which was additionally helpful if we were somewhere crazy or loud, because Noor could have some quiet moments to decompress and recharge before rejoining the group.

At home, before we have guest, I help Noor sweep the rooms for things she doesn't want explored by others. We either put them in our bedroom, which is typically off-limits to guests, or in tubs hidden somewhere out-of-sight.

Brie

Sandra Dodd

-=- Look less for Calgon Moments to take you away and more for 10 seconds of meditation while holding a child on your lap. -=-

That was a reference to an American television commercial for Calgon bath oil beads, from the 1970's. Schuyler shows her age and nationality. :-)

What the commercials showed was a frazzled mom with kids making noise and wanting and spilling and fighting over things (variably; there were a few different versions) and the mom says "Calgon, take me away!" and then we see her relaxing attractively and peacefully in a bathtub.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvE65VOcAL0

Ah. Then, after the women's movement... the traffic, the boss, the baby...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVLzkTuVmrw

Ah, but wait. I learned something on youtube.
They had Calgon in England.... but wait... the voiceover is American. WHAT the heck? Maybe they just used English images because it was so cool in the 60's. I didn't learn something. I got a new question in my head. Damn you, youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsReBCYaR-Q

Sandra




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Meredith

"Jen" <jenyoust@...> wrote:
>> Any advice on how to handle that awkward social situation...when a non-peaceful parenting person expects you to reprimand your own child because of something he/she has done to their child?
****************

It depends on your goals and how your son will react. You could invite him off someplace, give him a hug, offer a snack or... something like that to give him a break and let him calm down, but the other parent will assume you're punishing him and may be mollified by that. But depending on the situation, maybe some stern words are in order! What sorts of things is he doing?

>>it happens ALL THE TIME

If your son is consistently making other children cry, you've let him become a bully. Maybe he's doing it because he's overwhelmed or otherwise can't handle the situation, but still, I'd keep him away from complex mixed social arenas until he can deal with other children without upsetting them.

---Meredith

sarah

Jen,

>>such as my 4 year old hitting his sister, looking at me for reactions, damaging things on purpose, etc. >>

I wonder if, for the next few weeks, you don't plan anything, stay home, let the house be messy, try NOT to get anything done, and just be with your kids as much as possible. Get your body in there and help him not break things, hit people. But put yourself on "vacation" from the rest of your life as much as you can, so that you can not feel pressure to get other stuff done (I know that's hard).

>>> He's always been a sensitive child...enjoys playing by himself<<

Let him play by himself. Some people are "people people", some are not. He's probably introverted. Introverted people recharge by being alone.


>>doesn't like "sharing" any of his things when we go anywhere (but he won't leave his things in the car). <<<

He needs to leave special things at home. Sharing is hard, but you have to set him up to succeed. When a friend comes to play, he should be able to choose which toys are feeling special, and put them away before the friend arrives. I read somewhere that the neurons for empathy don't start to develop until around the age of 5. I don't know if that's true or not, but it always helps me to thing that the part of the brain that makes sharing happen literally does not exist yet. Makes me not require or expect it (while still helping my kids be decent to each other).


>>He really does whine incessantly...it doesn't matter what it is, he doesn't know how to ask for something without whining (or being reminded that it sounds nicer when he doesn't whine).<<

This is very annoying. Maybe you can try rephrasing his request in a normal tone of voice for him. Like if he whines "moooooom i want a cookie nowwwwww!!", you can say in your normal and happy voice "Mom? May I have a cookie please? Sure! Thank you!", and then hand him what he wants or needs. Like not correcting, but modeling. Or maybe meet his whines with utter exuberance like "YES, you can TOTALLY have a cookie RIGHT NOW that is an AWESOME IDEA!!". Sort of drenching the moment in utter positivity?

You mentioned in another post that you think his needs really are being met, but you are coming of Love and Logic, so they couldn't have been met, at least not emotionally.

>>When adults ask him questions, he all of a sudden forgets how to talk to people and says things like "poop" or "No!" really loud...it makes me worry.<<<

I think that's part of being introverted. It's uncomfortable to have certain people, adults especially, talking to you. Try answering for him.


>>I try very hard to get him and his sister (she's 2) out and about to meet new friends (especially other unschoolers in our area), and he barely warms up, if ever.<<

When I first committed us to homeschooling, I took my son (3 at the time) to all the homeschool park days around town. There were 3 different gatherings, and we went to 2 of them regularly for a year. We never made a single friend, neither of us. It was just too hard to enter the community in that way. I would either table the "making friends" conversation for awhile, or maybe invite one mom/kid combo that you think you like over to your house for a once-a-week play date, all the while knowing that the kids will probably parallel play and not engage.

He might not be ready for friends. My son is 7 now, and he has just recently been requesting play dates. But only one kid at a time, and only at our house. That is how he can contain it, but then he's happy and so am I. I had to let go of the idea that he needs LOTS of friends, or that big groups of kids would be nice for him. I think because our society groups kids together, we assume that kids want to be grouped. Some do, some don't. We attend a small park day now, and I am constantly amazed when a new person joins and just gloms into the group. My kids can't do that. They are watchers, not joiners. I was the same, and it was very satisfying. I was interested in the goings on of others, but I wasn't interested in being a part of the story.


>>I think there's one or two people in his life that he'll play and interact with (kids I mean), but we don't live close to them, so it's harder to get together often.<<

Doesn't need to be often. Once a week? Twice a month? That's plenty. Could you go to their house one week, and they come to yours the next? But one kid at a time, not all of them? Keep it small, keep it short. Make sure there is lots of food and alternate places to play. If you have the space, set up a "play room" that has only the toys your son will share. For years we kept all play dates outside in the yard because having any kid in our house was too overwhelming for my son. I would put out blankets and baskets of toys and a snack plate.


>>I do remember being young and I was very shy, so I understand how he feels, but I don't understand the anger part of it...he treats other people very poorly, no matter how they are treating him (everyone is nice to him, and people end up giving him his way to avoid his crying or throwing a tantrum). People try to be nice to him, and he acts as if they are a bother>>

Honestly, it sounds like he's not ready for people. Let that go. He sounds pretty clear. Make your home lovely with toys and games so it becomes a safe and interesting world.

My son has changed a lot from 4 to 7. He has and wants just a few friends, would like a daily play date, and has learned (more or less) how to play with other kids and to take turns, etc. But at 4, no. My daughter is 3, and I see her suspiciously eyeballing any kid her age. I don't even try now to do play dates or make friends for her. I'll wait until I know she is ready. That way, she succeeds.


Sarah

Jenny Cyphers

***Any advice on how to handle that awkward social situation...when a non-peaceful parenting person expects you to reprimand your own child because of something he/she has done to their child?***

Start by treating each individual involved like a REAL person and talk about it in a REAL way.  

Oh, I'm soooo sorry my son just did .....
Are you okay?
What happened?
Do you guys still want to play together?
What would you guys like to do?

The worst thing you can do is to make it awkward.  Don't make it awkward.  If you feel bad, say so.  Don't ignore what happened, acknowledge it.  I think most parents want acknowledgment, not necessarily punishment.  After all, schools don't necessarily punish kids the way parents might, it's more about acknowledging the problem and looking for ways to correct it or not let it happen again.

When Margaux was younger she could be very intense in play and sometimes do things other kids didn't like.  I would let the other kid know that it was perfectly all right to say clearly to Margaux, "Stop, I don't like that" and to let me know if she continued and I'd missed seeing whatever happened.  Generally, though, because I knew she was this way, I didn't let her play alone, I was right there playing with or in ear shot with a visual.  It was always easier to help the kids BEFORE it got to a point that required resolution of wrong doing.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Claire

>>>>>>>>>>>> This is very annoying. Maybe you can try rephrasing his request in a normal tone of voice for him. Like if he whines "moooooom i want a cookie nowwwwww!!", you can say in your normal and happy voice "Mom? May I have a cookie please? Sure! Thank you!", and then hand him what he wants or needs. Like not correcting, but modeling. Or maybe meet his whines with utter exuberance like "YES, you can TOTALLY have a cookie RIGHT NOW that is an AWESOME IDEA!!". Sort of drenching the moment in utter positivity?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I don't find kids using drawn-out tones particularly annoying.

I would find it pretty annoying if an adult said the things suggested above ;)

It's way too much talk. If my child is using a so-called whining tone, it means I haven't been on the ball and dealt with the situation before it got to the point of my child being frustrated. I don't get too fussed about how my kids speak to me because the general tone at our place is polite and friendly - if they say something like, "Mum get the cushions, we're building a fort" I just take it as healthy, direct communication and I trot off to get the cushions. No fuss.

I try to always speak clearly and politely to my kids, and I facilitate (as needed) that sort of communication between them and other adults and kids. And I have found that sort of real modeling to be very effective.

Claire

Kids - Ashlin, 7 & Eden, 4

Jen

I have been very inarticulate in my postings...LOL...I am trying to get the information in as clear a way as possible, and it ends up coming across the wrong way.

When I said

"but it happens ALL THE TIME in every park, in every play center, everywhere,"

I meant that I see other non-peaceful parenting types scolding their children in front of others whether their child did something really wrong or not...I wasn't saying that my child does this all the time, everywhere, all day everyday...whew, that would be exhausting. :) I am very observant of others when we go out, because that's always how I've been, and ever since I made this change, I've noticed more controlling parental behavior everywhere I go...it's like when you get a new car, you all of a sudden see that car EVERYWHERE.

I do see my error in bringing Quen's cherished toy (at least for that day) to a place where another child would find it interesting. Using distraction to get the wand back by default would've been a great approach...something to try if something similar ever happens again (although prevention is key the next time around!) His mom (my really good friend) just took the wand from her 18 month old, so we didn't have to do anything, but the whole situation was something I wanted to share for future reference.

Sandra, you asked:
>How is this expressed? Are they saying it directly?

No, no one comes right out and says these things directly, but I can pick up things from others' body language/facial expressions, etc. Plus, not only that, it probably is a little of my own insecurities about the situation making it worse. So, it could be one or the other or a little bit of both causing the awkwardness. I think once I gain more confidence, things will get less awkward.

To Joyce, when you said...
>Look less for Calgon Moments to take you away and more for 10 seconds of meditation while holding a child on your lap. The time will come when they need you less and you will have lots and lots of time to meet those needs.

Good idea...it's been hard for me to let go of the idea that I will not have large chunks of time to dedicate to things I love doing (reading, writing, quilting)..things like writing and quilting take lots of time and concentration, so it's hard to do a little here and there, but I guess there will be a time and a place for all of that in the future. Although, I do like Dayna Martin's point of view that everyone in the family should have his or her needs met on a daily basis...I just haven't quite figured out how to do that yet.

Happy Easter!

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 7, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Jen wrote:
>
> > Any advice on how to handle that awkward social situation...when a
> > non-peaceful parenting person expects you to reprimand your own child
> > because of something he/she has done to their child?
>
> How is this expressed? Are they saying it directly?
>
> How about apologizing to the injured child, sincerely as you would to your own child, as you would want your child to eventually be able to do himself.
>
> Be the more socially adept member on your and your son's team.
>
> > but it happens ALL THE TIME in every park, in every play center, everywhere,
>
> ALL THE TIME is sounding like not being with him enough. He's having too many opportunities to hurt people when he's showing he's not capable yet of not doing so. All the more reason to avoid play dates where it's likely to happen.
>
> > if I were to intervene and take the wand from the
> > 18 month old, they would've been pretty much disgusted.
>
> At that age it's usually easy to distract them with something even better so they give up one thing for the better thing. It's a useful strategy for your son to see.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

schuyliz2

>>Look less for Calgon Moments to take you away and more for 10 seconds of meditation while holding a child on your lap. The time will come when they need you less and you will have lots and lots of time to meet those needs. <<

>Good idea...it's been hard for me to let go of the idea that I will not have large chunks of time to dedicate to things I love doing (reading, writing, quilting)..things like writing and quilting take lots of time and concentration, so it's hard to do a little here and there, but I guess there will be a time and a place for all of that in the future. Although, I do like Dayna Martin's point of view that everyone in the family should have his or her needs met on a daily basis...I just haven't quite figured out how to do that yet.<

=============

I stopped reading when Simon and Linnaea were little. To be more accurate, I stopped reading novels when Simon and Linnaea were little. I found myself irritated at the interruption to my reading and realised that the books would still be there when Simon and Linnaea needed me less acutely. And they are. All the books are still out there. Or are gathering in my bookcases. And I didn't miss them. I totally thought I would miss reading, I was a voracious reader, reading defined me for years. But when I took a hiatus, I loved it. I realised that part of my reading had been looking for things to do, some place to escape into. When I let that go, I found that I really liked where I was and that reading wasn't enhancing my life right then. I still read far less than I used to. I still don't first turn to a book to engage me. I like that.

I think Dayna Martin is wrong. Or maybe needs very differently than the need to quilt and the need to write and the need to read. If she's referring to eating and sleeping and drinking and basic hygiene and toileting needs, yes, it's good to meet those personal needs on a daily basis. The argument that there is a method by which all people in every family should find the time to meet each and all their needs, that's just gobbledy-gook. It's another U.S. ad, the Enjoli ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X4MwbVf5OA. I can fill everyone's needs with a 24 hour perfume as my drug of choice to make laundry, child care, cooking, sex and work all be taken care of. It's a good way to feel like you are failing at everything if you prioritise everything equally.

With a 4 year old and a 2 year old, your time is not your own. And the more you work to find your own time, the less satisfied with them you will be. The more you will resent how much of your life, your year, your month, your week, your day, your moments they are taking up. It is much easier, much happier, much better to figure out how to enjoy being with them, to figure out how to fulfil yourself in their presence, with them on your lap. It produces the most amazing sense of well-being that fills you up so much more than anything I ever knit, any song I ever learned, any book I ever read.

Schuyler

sheeboo2

-----it's been hard for me to let go of the idea that I will not have large chunks of time to dedicate to things I love doing (reading, writing, quilting)..things like writing and quilting take lots of time and concentration, so it's hard to do a little here and there, but I guess there will be a time and a place for all of that in the future..---------------

I don't think this link has been offered yet, so here it is: http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely

There is a chart there that may help you feel less reluctant about giving your full attention to your child.

My daughter is twice as old as your son. She needs far less of my dedicated time now than she did four years ago. Children really do grow up, and it really does happen far quicker than you often want it to.

Your time is also a very valuable investment. There is a huge difference in the amount and kind of time Noor needs from Michael and me compared to some of her friends whose mothers were determined when their children were younger, to get in a lot of "me time." Noor is far less needy, reactive, demanding and whiny than every child I know who grew up with a mom dedicated to "me time."


--------Although, I do like Dayna Martin's point of view that everyone in the family should have his or her needs met on a daily basis----------------

Oh boy. Reading through your initial post, I wondered if some of your ideas about unschooling were coming from there. The "let things go" stuff definitely had that shadow about it.

Here's the difference, as I see it: *You* are an adult: an adult who choose to have a child, an adult who later chose to keep your child home from school, an adult who is now choosing to grow into radical unschooling. Because you are the one with the control, and because you have years and years of experience in getting your needs met, you have the ability to delay gratification, and to shift your desires toward something more encompassing of the actual life you've chose. Your son, barely out of babyhood, did not make any of the above choices, and, he has little to no actual control over them. He does not understand that what he wants or needs will happen later, if he is patient. He cannot, developmentally, shift his focus and reframe the things in life that are the most important to him.

Your time and attention are a gift you can give him (and yourself). Don't give it begrudgingly.

When Noor was younger, I replaced books with magazines. I bought subscriptions for a few I'd loved over the years, and read those instead as they were much easier to pick up and put down. I read some short stories and poetry too, although admittedly, not a lot. I printed out the messages on this list, and from Sandra and Joyce's websites, and read those, in bits and pieces, when I had time.

I sewed stuffed animal garb instead of big, time-consuming projects. I used a hot-glue gun with Noor to make lots and lots of things quickly.

You may be looking at your needs as if you have only two choices: fulfill them or not. You have far more choices than that! First, really think hard about your priorities--is your first need to be the parent your child needs you to be?
Then, look at the things you enjoyed prior to motherhood--how can you refit pieces of that puzzle into this new, CHOSEN, life?

Brie

Misti Hull

-=-In their eyes, the baby of the group gets to have whatever they want by
default...even another child's cherished toy. -=-

I don't think babies should get to have whatever the want by default, and I
think that just because a child brings a toy to the park doesn't mean s/he
should have to share it just because. Ideally, yes, share at the park, but
not by default. If he didn't want to share it, I think offering to take it
to the car or to "put it up" is reasonable, but not for a toddler to play
with it just because they're a baby.

Misti


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Meredith

"Jen" <jenyoust@...> wrote:
>I do like Dayna Martin's point of view that everyone in the family should have his or her needs met on a daily basis...I just haven't quite figured out how to do that yet.
**************

You do it by bringing your special adult abilities into play - the ability to see others' points of view, to see a larger perspective, to delay gratification, to shift your own state of mind to something more helpful under the circumstances. As a parent, that includes recognizing that spending time with your child, meeting his needs and seeing him happy Already fills some of yours.

>>it's been hard for me to let go of the idea that I will not have large chunks of time to dedicate to things I love doing (reading, writing, quilting)..things like writing and quilting take lots of time and concentration
****************

It will help a whole lot to shift your assumptions about that. I love to read, write and quilt as well, and those things don't Have To take lots of time and attention, they can all be done in smaller bites - in fact, they're ideal sorts of things to adapt to doing in the company of a child because with a shift in perspective (and organization) they're easy to put down at a moment's notice. When you have chunks of time, organize your projects - organization takes the most concerted focus. Set yourself up to do things on "auto pilot" so you can pick up a partially completed project and put it down without having to do the work of figuring out the next step. I found writing and quilting around a toddler - figuring out how to do that - helped me be better at understanding the underlying structure of what I was working on. I learned a lot about different styles of outlining and flow-charts. And with quilts, in particular, I learned a lot of skills I had eschewed before as I moved away from the machine for larger periods of time and got into doing more hand work. See the shift from large amounts of time to little pockets as an opportunity to expand you body of work, deepen your understanding, and experiment with new techniques.

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=-I try to always speak clearly and politely to my kids, and I facilitate (as needed) that sort of communication between them and other adults and kids. And I have found that sort of real modeling to be very effective.-=-

If your kids didn't whine, though, then you might assume that they don't whine because you paid attention to them and you didn't whine (or something).

In the case of a child who's in the habit of whining, it's worth asking them to ask in a different one. It can become a habit and not a choice, if they don't see a choice.

So the mom needs to change her behavior and be more pro-active, and also probably ask the child to speak normally when possible.

-=- Like if he whines "moooooom i want a cookie nowwwwww!!", you can say in your normal and happy voice "Mom? May I have a cookie please? Sure! Thank you!", and then hand him what he wants or needs. Like not correcting, but modeling.-=-

I wouldn't like that, either, though. If I wouldn't do it to my husband or a visiting adult, that's a pretty decent indication that it's not a normal exchange. :-)

I don't like people speaking for other people that way, right in front of them. It's happened to me with a mom and kid in my own house. It's tiring, and not productive. It's not relationship building.

I have said (to Marty, who was the whiniest kid) "I don't mind making you breakfast, but I wish you wouldn't whine." In a normal voice, not in a parnt-to-kid voice, not in a "correctional voice".

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=- Although, I do like Dayna Martin's point of view that everyone in the family should have his or her needs met on a daily basis...I just haven't quite figured out how to do that yet.-=-

Not the best person to cite on this list. She hasn't figured it out either; it's theory. Much of her advice is either quoted from others, or is wishful thinking she hasn't quite experienced. Try to separate the advice you get here from what you get from Dayna. There are people here with twenty years experience, and proven records of honesty.

If you decide that one thing you need is to be a really present, dedicated mother, you can meet that need every day. There will be time later to quilt and watch movies and do other things uninterrupted. I slept 12 hours the other night. :-) When I had three kids under the age of six, I didn't sleep three hours in a row, for years. You can't balance your live out that way. It will be lumpy.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-If he didn't want to share it, I think offering to take it
to the car or to "put it up" is reasonable, but not for a toddler to play
with it just because they're a baby.-=-

If people are going to play in a group with younger children, older children should learn to play safely and gently and not to upset the babies unnecessarily.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***Although, I do like Dayna Martin's point of view that everyone in the family should have his or her needs met on a daily basis...I just haven't quite figured out how to do that yet.***

I would find that expectation about as unrealistic as each of my family members making sure they eat their allotted amount of fruits and veggies each day.  Some days that won't happen, but over time each person gets what their body needs.

On Friday, I spent the entire day doing things for other people, but I managed to host a party to a LOT of teenagers who all had a good time, even though I was near to pulling my hair out (I blame the full moon, but that's another story).  The next day, I got lots of time to take care of things for myself!  In the midst of my crazy Friday, I pulled myself together and kept pushing on and kept reminding myself to laugh and have a good time, otherwise, what is the point?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp

----I do remember being young and I was very shy, so I understand how he feels, but I don't understand the anger part of it...he treats other people very poorly, no matter how they are treating him (everyone is nice to him, and people end up giving him his way to avoid his crying or throwing a tantrum). ----

There is a beautiful interview titled 'What We Nurture' with Sylvia Boorstein where she discusses parenting (http://being.publicradio.org/programs/2012/what-we-nurture/video_boorstein.shtml). She talks about how Buddhism believes that people have one of 5 genetic fallback glitches when they are challenged. Some people get angry, some people worry, some people lose heart and all their energy, some people blame themselves, and some people need to be sensually soothed (with a donut, pizza, etc.). This part of the discussion starts at about 8 minutes into the interview.

She goes on to say these glitches of neurology are not a moral flaw, they are just part of one's genetic makeup, much like a person's height or eye colour. If a person can see it as neutral and without judgement, it's really helpful because then you don't need to feel bad about it. The important part is to work with your particular glitch wisely. When a person has awareness and is able to recognize their glitch kicking in during a tense moment, they then might be better able to take a step back, breathe, relax and make a better choice.

Try not to get upset with your child when he gets angry. Help him calm down in his stressful moments and make better choices. It is going to make his life better and easier if he trusts his mom is his partner helping him navigate through his challenging moments.

Another thing from the interview that might be helpful to your situation are the words from her blessing practice (about 45 minutes into the interview) :

May I feel safe
May I feel content
May I feel strong
May I live with ease

May you feel safe
May you feel content
May you feel strong
May you live with ease

Help your child feel safe, content and strong as much as you possibly can. For now that probably means less play dates with other children and more play between the two of you. Help your child live with ease and this will help you be better able to live your life with ease.

Rippy









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Sandra Dodd

-=-I stopped reading when Simon and Linnaea were little. To be more accurate, I stopped reading novels when Simon and Linnaea were little. I found myself irritated at the interruption to my reading and realised that the books would still be there when Simon and Linnaea needed me less acutely. And they are. All the books are still out there. Or are gathering in my bookcases. And I didn't miss them. I totally thought I would miss reading, I was a voracious reader, reading defined me for years. But when I took a hiatus, I loved it. I realised that part of my reading had been looking for things to do, some place to escape into. When I let that go, I found that I really liked where I was and that reading wasn't enhancing my life right then. I still read far less than I used to. I still don't first turn to a book to engage me. I like that. -=-

Me, too. Different kids, same pattern. :-)
I started reading magazines, as Brie did.

My reading had been more escapism than anything--a habit picked up in school and at home as a kid. It was a way to get some privacy and fantasy in an overcrowded school and an overcrowded house.

I've often read non-fiction, and even that I'd want to finish quickly, to get it all, to think about it and consider whether to read it again. Now sometimes I'll read part of a book and not worry that I didn't read the whole thing. Or I'll leave one by my bed and take months to finish it and not feel self conscious, partly because my own deschooling has taken away the phantom overlay of reading quickly, and before a semester ended, or before a "unit" seemed to have passed, and I had "not finished my book." A lot of my book thoughts were schoolbound.
http://sandradodd.com/bookworship
(Dayna Martin uses that term, "book worship," but she got it from me, as she did many other things, from me and other people, entirely unrcredited and unacknowledged. Don't count on her site for balanced, experienced information.)

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jen

>>I think Dayna Martin is wrong. Or maybe needs very differently than the need to quilt and the need to write and the need to read. If she's referring to eating and sleeping and drinking and basic hygiene and toileting needs, yes, it's good to meet those personal needs on a daily basis. The argument that there is a method by which all people in every family should find the time to meet each and all their needs, that's just gobbledy-gook. It's another U.S. ad, the Enjoli ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X4MwbVf5OA. I can fill everyone's needs with a 24 hour perfume as my drug of choice to make laundry, child care, cooking, sex and work all be taken care of. It's a good way to feel like you are failing at everything if you prioritise everything equally. <<

Ok, the Enjoli ad made me grin...you've made a good point here. I am fairly new to all of this, and it's interesting to learn different unschoolers' perspectives -- I'm still learning that there is such a range of beliefs in this one area we all call unschooling, and I guess I was captivated by the idea that, YES, we could all meet our needs on a daily basis (forgetting that Dayna's youngest child is 4-5 years old, so it's possible she forgets how exhausting the young years are). That, and my husband does not work at home every day...he is gone from about 7am - 5pm most days, and on the phone working since he owns his own business...he is not as readily available as her husband Joe seems to be. Our entire family structure is different than hers, and that should've probably been my first clue that things will not always be perfectly joyful and harmonious (me sitting there and quilting or writing while my young children sit happily by my side playing and doing things for hours at a time.

>>With a 4 year old and a 2 year old, your time is not your own. And the more you work to find your own time, the less satisfied with them you will be. The more you will resent how much of your life, your year, your month, your week, your day, your moments they are taking up. It is much easier, much happier, much better to figure out how to enjoy being with them, to figure out how to fulfil yourself in their presence, with them on your lap. It produces the most amazing sense of well-being that fills you up so much more than anything I ever knit, any song I ever learned, any book I ever read.<<

This really resonated with me. What you said in the 2nd sentence is absolutely true, and this is what I must work on FIRST. I don't want to have that resentment at all, and they don't deserve a mom who feels that way. I'm just happy I can fix these things now and see this whole lifestyle in a new light while they are still so young. I'm so happy to have this forum. Yesterday I made more effort to just BE with them. Play with them. Smile and laugh. At first I felt myself pulling away from things that "needed to get done", but then reminded myself that those things do not NEED to get done, but my kids do NEED my presence. I ended up having fun with them, and now I know how easy it is to just switch gears and be present. It seems like it gets easier.

Several people mentioned the fact that they used to read to escape or be entertained...I do the same thing, and I realize that reading books is a way to unwind, so I think I'll save reading for before bed only (after the kids are sleeping). I think right now all of my other reading (other than escapism reading) is about learning. I have been reading and learning so much about unschooling and attachment parenting, and I find it so interesting that I want to keep reading and reading and reading. I have now reserved this to the morning before everyone else gets up. I have also been trying to exercise in the morning (because I enjoy it). So, now I have been making sure two of my greatest needs are met when the kids are sleeping. Being alone is how I recharge my batteries, so having these small amounts of time does help me be more present with them when they are with me.

>>You may be looking at your needs as if you have only two choices: fulfill them or not. You have far more choices than that! First, really think hard about your priorities--is your first need to be the parent your child needs you to be?
Then, look at the things you enjoyed prior to motherhood--how can you refit pieces of that puzzle into this new, CHOSEN, life?<<

Pretty beautiful. This is so powerful to me I just may print it out and read it when I need it. I did need reminded of my first priority...my kids. Duh.

It's so easy to get sucked into this culture and the idea for mommy "me time" even after having several children (most women I know with kids say, "make sure you make time for you!") I know moms that can't WAIT to send their kids to school so they have even more "me time" to go play tennis and have afternoon cocktails). These are the same moms that brag about what their kids learned at school. And then I remember that I don't even want to be like that mom who can't wait to send her kid to school so I can have gobs and gobs of "me time"...that there is a reason I have consciously chosen this meaningful lifestyle -- so, in a sense, I guess I am still on the path of deschooling and getting over all the cultural influences around me. It's taking time, but I'm getting there. Thanks for the ability to vent and question and learn.

CarenKH

-=-And then I remember that I don't even want to be like that mom who can't wait to send her kid to school so I can have gobs and gobs of "me time"...that there is a reason I have consciously chosen this meaningful lifestyle -- so, in a sense, I guess I am still on the path of deschooling and getting over all the cultural influences around me.-=-

There came a point in my unschooling journey where I needed to recognize that there was a part of me that DID want more "me time" and that sometimes, DID want to send the kids away. Looking at that honestly allowed me to dig a little deeper to find out where that desire came from - and it came from an unhealed part of myself. Working to be closer to my kids, to be fully present with them, to give to them happily with gratitude, to move toward them rather than away, has done more to heal that broken part of me than years of therapy ever did.

There's a quote that's shown up here and there on facebook, and it's been interesting to see the different reactions it gets:

"The best thing that ever happened to me was that being a present, attentive, happy mother became one of my passions. When moms start sorting their "own time" from their children's time, their time as a mother from their time as a person, then they're going to be unhappy, or their children will be unhappy. If a mom can become a partner to her children, they are less needy and she will have more time. It seems crazy, but it works." ~ Sandra Dodd

Some people read that and comment, "Ugh! Sounds like Stepford Wives!" and others, who have made that shift, or had kids when they were already understanding it, post agreeable comments. At one point, I would have been in the "Ugh!" camp. It sounds so... anti-feminist! Anti-personal growth! But eventually I recognized that the part of me that was saying, "But what about meeeeeee?" wasn't an empowered, growing part. It was a very young, very self-centered part.

Words that look one way from the outside, look very different from the inside, when you're living them. That's one thing that can be SO hard to get across to folks still looking in from the outside! Once I stopped caring how folks looking at me from the outside would judge me, I became a much better mom. If someone thinks I'm some kind of Stepford wife because I've found joy and peace in giving to my kids, they can certainly think that; it doesn't change our lives one iota.

Folks who advocate equal time for all family members haven't made that shift yet, into thinking as a full adult, into being the grown-up in the relationship - or, that was the case for me, at least. It was reading here and on unschooling basics that helped me see that as an adult, I had more resources than my child, more experience living in the world, and that *I* had made the choice to bring the kids into the world in the first place!


peace,
Caren