Help with son and father's relationship
jo kirby
Hi all, I would very much appreciate your thoughts on this, which is currently going on pretty much on a daily basis in our house:
My son is just five, and an only child. He and I have always been very close, and we spend a lot of time together, generally having a great time. However, I work two days a week and on those days my husband (his Dad) takes care of him. I work from home, and whilst I try to stay focussed on my work, I am ultimately available and he does come to visit me in my work room quite a lot. My husband tries to discourage this, because he knows I need to get on with my work, and I tend to give him a few minutes, but then gently remind him that I need to get on with my work now, and Daddy is here to play with him.
For a long time now he has often expressed his dislike of his Dad. (It's not consistent - he also will often tell him in private how much he loves him etc.), but it seems if I'm around or in his mind he will be very verbal about preferring me. This quite often gets to the point where it is upsetting for both my husband and myself, I mean, he will shout "I don't want you, I want Mummy", or make aggressive arghhhhh noises at my husband to express his dislike. Quite often he will simply ignore his Dad's questions, not say hello to him when he comes home, tells him he can't join in the game etc. He makes it very obvious that he doesn't want Daddy, in a way that comes across as very unkind. He will then turn to me and smile and apparently expect me to just get on with something lovely with him, like a story or a game or whatever.
We have asked him to speak to Daddy kindly. Recently I have started to tell him that he is being rude to Daddy when he does that kind of thing and that Daddy has a right to live in his home without being rude to, and that he must stop. That seems to be about as effective as saying nothing. In fact saying nothing might be better?, in that it makes less of a deal out of it, and we have tried that for a while too. I have also begun to tell him that I am finding it upsetting too, not just Daddy, but again I'm not sure if that's a good idea. This week my husband suggested maybe Sam should be sent to school, to "teach him how to behave more politely toward people." Of course there are arguments that school probably won't teach him that at all..., I only mention it to illustrate something of how my husband is feeling. This situation does not seem to be improving. I am so unsure how to handle it.
Something I have been doing recently is trying to be extra caring and gentle with my husband. I thought it might help if Sam saw me taking the time to be more affectionate and caring. Even if it doesn't help, I figure it will still be nice for my husband!
I do think we have got into a pattern where my husband comes downstairs or comes home and expects to be unwanted, so he just does his own thing (and in some ways that kind of suits him), or sometimes he wants to talk to me about business, so then he doesn't seem that fun or interesting. I am trying to help him feel more welcome and appreciated. However, my son seems to prefer it if I barely speak to him! I think he sees his Dad as someone who potentially interrupts my focus on him. If I invite my husband to join in with us, the chances are Sam will shout "NO!, I don't want Daddy", which leads to feelings of unease and upset or anger in one or more of us, so I tend to just carry on focussing on Sam, to keep the peace really. Sometimes I will say "No, that's not kind, Daddy is allowed to play too" and then Sam will either agree or get upset depending how he's feeling. I am constantly feeling in the middle, which most of the time I can manage ok, but
sometimes I just get exhausted with it. (Another side issue with this is that sometimes I could really do with a little bit of headspace, and there is someone there able and willing to take over for a few minutes, but it has become almost impossible for me to have without a fuss, so it's not worth it. In the moment I often find the stress of negotiating more than the benefit of the time alone, but it means that sometimes I get to burnout, because I haven't taken those moments.)
I suggested to my husband that he come home with little presents, or fun things to show Sam or to do with him. He doesn't want to bring presents (I think he feels like he'd be trying to buy his affection), but says he will try to be more interesting to my son, but it is very hard because there are no 'windows'. I said maybe he doesn't need a window, just start doing the thing and if it's interesting to him Sam will come to get involved. But he says he is feeling very raw and doesn't want to feel criticised, and doesn't want suggestions.
When I first started working from home, my husband and I agreed that they would go out on the days I work. But this quickly stopped happening, because they often don't want to go out. And I can see their argument of why should they, just because I'm working from home?
Another possibility that has been on my mind is that I could change where I work, and move my office out of our house back to our workshop up the road (about a mile away), so that there is a natural boundary around the days I work, and his only choice is Daddy on those days. My main hesitation with this is that Sam will be even less happy with the situation, even though it might be clearer. And I'm not sure it would help his relationship with his Dad in general, it might lead him to even more resentment.
I have not found a way in which I can get all my work done in the evenings, as most often Sam is not asleep until around 9.30 or 10pm, by which time I am just too tired to begin a focussed, creative, work session.
I would very much appreciate knowing if this sounds like an age related trait which will naturally improve with care and time? Should we try to ignore it more, and Sam will naturally, with time, become less contrary to his father? Or are we getting something wrong somehow? Are we being too soft here?, I mean, sometimes I feel that Sam has the trump card to basically behave as he likes because we chose not to use punishing techniques and the natural consequences (us being sad or upset for example) don't seem to bother him that much. Has anyone else been through something similar?
Please feel free to ask for more details if I haven't explained enough.
I would very much appreciate any help, I am finding this very stressful and therefore it is affecting my parenting (and our family life and our marriage and my work and my peace) :-(
Thank you in advance,
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My son is just five, and an only child. He and I have always been very close, and we spend a lot of time together, generally having a great time. However, I work two days a week and on those days my husband (his Dad) takes care of him. I work from home, and whilst I try to stay focussed on my work, I am ultimately available and he does come to visit me in my work room quite a lot. My husband tries to discourage this, because he knows I need to get on with my work, and I tend to give him a few minutes, but then gently remind him that I need to get on with my work now, and Daddy is here to play with him.
For a long time now he has often expressed his dislike of his Dad. (It's not consistent - he also will often tell him in private how much he loves him etc.), but it seems if I'm around or in his mind he will be very verbal about preferring me. This quite often gets to the point where it is upsetting for both my husband and myself, I mean, he will shout "I don't want you, I want Mummy", or make aggressive arghhhhh noises at my husband to express his dislike. Quite often he will simply ignore his Dad's questions, not say hello to him when he comes home, tells him he can't join in the game etc. He makes it very obvious that he doesn't want Daddy, in a way that comes across as very unkind. He will then turn to me and smile and apparently expect me to just get on with something lovely with him, like a story or a game or whatever.
We have asked him to speak to Daddy kindly. Recently I have started to tell him that he is being rude to Daddy when he does that kind of thing and that Daddy has a right to live in his home without being rude to, and that he must stop. That seems to be about as effective as saying nothing. In fact saying nothing might be better?, in that it makes less of a deal out of it, and we have tried that for a while too. I have also begun to tell him that I am finding it upsetting too, not just Daddy, but again I'm not sure if that's a good idea. This week my husband suggested maybe Sam should be sent to school, to "teach him how to behave more politely toward people." Of course there are arguments that school probably won't teach him that at all..., I only mention it to illustrate something of how my husband is feeling. This situation does not seem to be improving. I am so unsure how to handle it.
Something I have been doing recently is trying to be extra caring and gentle with my husband. I thought it might help if Sam saw me taking the time to be more affectionate and caring. Even if it doesn't help, I figure it will still be nice for my husband!
I do think we have got into a pattern where my husband comes downstairs or comes home and expects to be unwanted, so he just does his own thing (and in some ways that kind of suits him), or sometimes he wants to talk to me about business, so then he doesn't seem that fun or interesting. I am trying to help him feel more welcome and appreciated. However, my son seems to prefer it if I barely speak to him! I think he sees his Dad as someone who potentially interrupts my focus on him. If I invite my husband to join in with us, the chances are Sam will shout "NO!, I don't want Daddy", which leads to feelings of unease and upset or anger in one or more of us, so I tend to just carry on focussing on Sam, to keep the peace really. Sometimes I will say "No, that's not kind, Daddy is allowed to play too" and then Sam will either agree or get upset depending how he's feeling. I am constantly feeling in the middle, which most of the time I can manage ok, but
sometimes I just get exhausted with it. (Another side issue with this is that sometimes I could really do with a little bit of headspace, and there is someone there able and willing to take over for a few minutes, but it has become almost impossible for me to have without a fuss, so it's not worth it. In the moment I often find the stress of negotiating more than the benefit of the time alone, but it means that sometimes I get to burnout, because I haven't taken those moments.)
I suggested to my husband that he come home with little presents, or fun things to show Sam or to do with him. He doesn't want to bring presents (I think he feels like he'd be trying to buy his affection), but says he will try to be more interesting to my son, but it is very hard because there are no 'windows'. I said maybe he doesn't need a window, just start doing the thing and if it's interesting to him Sam will come to get involved. But he says he is feeling very raw and doesn't want to feel criticised, and doesn't want suggestions.
When I first started working from home, my husband and I agreed that they would go out on the days I work. But this quickly stopped happening, because they often don't want to go out. And I can see their argument of why should they, just because I'm working from home?
Another possibility that has been on my mind is that I could change where I work, and move my office out of our house back to our workshop up the road (about a mile away), so that there is a natural boundary around the days I work, and his only choice is Daddy on those days. My main hesitation with this is that Sam will be even less happy with the situation, even though it might be clearer. And I'm not sure it would help his relationship with his Dad in general, it might lead him to even more resentment.
I have not found a way in which I can get all my work done in the evenings, as most often Sam is not asleep until around 9.30 or 10pm, by which time I am just too tired to begin a focussed, creative, work session.
I would very much appreciate knowing if this sounds like an age related trait which will naturally improve with care and time? Should we try to ignore it more, and Sam will naturally, with time, become less contrary to his father? Or are we getting something wrong somehow? Are we being too soft here?, I mean, sometimes I feel that Sam has the trump card to basically behave as he likes because we chose not to use punishing techniques and the natural consequences (us being sad or upset for example) don't seem to bother him that much. Has anyone else been through something similar?
Please feel free to ask for more details if I haven't explained enough.
I would very much appreciate any help, I am finding this very stressful and therefore it is affecting my parenting (and our family life and our marriage and my work and my peace) :-(
Thank you in advance,
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-When I first started working from home, my husband and I agreed that they would go out on the days I work. But this quickly stopped happening, because they often don't want to go out. And I can see their argument of why should they, just because I'm working from home?-=-
Because of all the reasons you wrote out. Things aren't going well with you all in the same space. If your being there is keeping them from interacting, and they don't want to go out all the time, find a some-and-some solution, maybe.
If your husband doesn't want ideas from you, maybe he would listen to the sound file at http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully especially if you could get it into the car somehow (CD or iPod) so he could listen without you around.
If he can see himself as a partner, and see that every choice he makes is getting him "warmer" or "colder" as to the goal of closeness with his son, it might help him. He's either making a deposit or a withdrawal from the credit in that account.
He could see that your son is doing damage to the relationship, too, but IF they are partners, and one of them is five years old, it falls on the other one to do the hard work and to take up the slack. It won't be forever that he's five. But it will be for the rest of your husband's life that the relationship's health or lack thereof will affect them both. My kids are grown now and being really helpful and kind to me and Keith as we're getting older. Being patient and generous with them was a good investment.
Another aspect is that inside each man is the little boy, comparing and reviewing (whether consciously or not) and if your son is getting to do things your husband didn't get to do, there will be some jealousy. If you're treating him in ways your husband's mom didn't treat him, he's going to have a reaction, maybe very deep inside. Those are things for you to think about, not to say, probably--at least not all at once in any insensitive way.
When I said when one of my kids was preferring me and saying "I don't like dad," was "I really like him." So they would be nice to him for my sake sometimes, and that was okay. As they got older there was more to like. The kids were becoming more aware, and so was the dad.
Sandra
Because of all the reasons you wrote out. Things aren't going well with you all in the same space. If your being there is keeping them from interacting, and they don't want to go out all the time, find a some-and-some solution, maybe.
If your husband doesn't want ideas from you, maybe he would listen to the sound file at http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully especially if you could get it into the car somehow (CD or iPod) so he could listen without you around.
If he can see himself as a partner, and see that every choice he makes is getting him "warmer" or "colder" as to the goal of closeness with his son, it might help him. He's either making a deposit or a withdrawal from the credit in that account.
He could see that your son is doing damage to the relationship, too, but IF they are partners, and one of them is five years old, it falls on the other one to do the hard work and to take up the slack. It won't be forever that he's five. But it will be for the rest of your husband's life that the relationship's health or lack thereof will affect them both. My kids are grown now and being really helpful and kind to me and Keith as we're getting older. Being patient and generous with them was a good investment.
Another aspect is that inside each man is the little boy, comparing and reviewing (whether consciously or not) and if your son is getting to do things your husband didn't get to do, there will be some jealousy. If you're treating him in ways your husband's mom didn't treat him, he's going to have a reaction, maybe very deep inside. Those are things for you to think about, not to say, probably--at least not all at once in any insensitive way.
When I said when one of my kids was preferring me and saying "I don't like dad," was "I really like him." So they would be nice to him for my sake sometimes, and that was okay. As they got older there was more to like. The kids were becoming more aware, and so was the dad.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 8, 2012, at 6:50 AM, jo kirby wrote:
I can understand them not wanting to leave, but maybe the out of the house ideas could be more drawing, something to look forward to rather than being pulled from the house. Don't make them mandatory. That's always a good way to make something unappealing ;-)
Or make the time at home more appealing. Are there movies from your husband's childhood that he'd love to share? Video games they can play together?
Otherwise, yes, I'd say leave. It's too hard for him to fully engage in "second best" to discover what he likes about it when you're still an option.
I think it will help if he can let go of expecting what he offers to succeed. It should be a gift :-) This can be really hard! We tend to put ourselves and our self esteem into choosing with the goal of making someone happy. That's too much expectation that depends on what can't be controlled (someone else's feelings) and often leads to disappointment.
If his goal, instead, is figuring out what your son enjoys, then the feedback of your son not liking something is useful input rather than failure.
But if your son's jealous of your time, it's likely to make him more upset.
How about engaging your son in helping you do thoughtful, sweet things for your husband? And come up with thoughtful, sweet things for your son too. Like making your husband's favorite meat dish and your son's favorite dessert. If he doesn't want to -- yet! -- that's okay. If he doesn't' want you to, let him know -- not in a shaming way but as a fact -- that it makes you happy to do nice things for people.
Maybe your husband smells funny to him. Just some biochemical reaction.
Maybe there's something that rubs him the wrong way about how your husband interacts with him. Not necessarily wrong in a universal sense but something he personally doesn't like.
It would be helpful to figure it out, but maybe you can't know. He might not know. You could ask -- if you can listen without giving him negative feedback.
Ultimately his feelings are his feelings and he can't (yet) control them.
But you can help him react to his feelings better. Telling him he's rude doesn't give him better tools. It just makes him angry and hurt.
Engage him some other time well away from the moment, like during the day. Don't explain a lot! Keep it simple. He probably already knows what he's saying is hurtful. You've already told him people need to be safe (though it sounds like you used too many words.) Go right to coming up with a better way he can ask for what he wants.
But the less he's put in the position where he feels he needs to be rude to get what he wants the better.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am ultimately available and he does come to visit me in my work room quite a lot.So Dad's the bad guy preventing him from being with you? At least in your son's eyes. I think from his current point of view, it would be better if you were saying that.
> My husband tries to discourage this, because he knows I need to get on with my work,
> and I tend to give him a few minutes, but then gently remind him that I need to get on
> with my work now, and Daddy is here to play with him.
I can understand them not wanting to leave, but maybe the out of the house ideas could be more drawing, something to look forward to rather than being pulled from the house. Don't make them mandatory. That's always a good way to make something unappealing ;-)
Or make the time at home more appealing. Are there movies from your husband's childhood that he'd love to share? Video games they can play together?
Otherwise, yes, I'd say leave. It's too hard for him to fully engage in "second best" to discover what he likes about it when you're still an option.
> I suggested to my husband that he come home with little presents,I agree with your husband about the presents. Gifts shouldn't come with expectations or ulterior motives. Gifts should be given just because you think someone might like it.
> or fun things to show Sam or to do with him. He doesn't want to bring presents
> (I think he feels like he'd be trying to buy his affection), but says he will try to be
> more interesting to my son, but it is very hard because there are no 'windows'
I think it will help if he can let go of expecting what he offers to succeed. It should be a gift :-) This can be really hard! We tend to put ourselves and our self esteem into choosing with the goal of making someone happy. That's too much expectation that depends on what can't be controlled (someone else's feelings) and often leads to disappointment.
If his goal, instead, is figuring out what your son enjoys, then the feedback of your son not liking something is useful input rather than failure.
> Something I have been doing recently is trying to be extra caringYes, definitely nice for your husband.
> and gentle with my husband. I thought it might help if Sam saw me
> taking the time to be more affectionate and caring. Even if it doesn't
> help, I figure it will still be nice for my husband!
But if your son's jealous of your time, it's likely to make him more upset.
How about engaging your son in helping you do thoughtful, sweet things for your husband? And come up with thoughtful, sweet things for your son too. Like making your husband's favorite meat dish and your son's favorite dessert. If he doesn't want to -- yet! -- that's okay. If he doesn't' want you to, let him know -- not in a shaming way but as a fact -- that it makes you happy to do nice things for people.
> Recently I have started to tell him that he is being rude to Daddy when he doesMaybe he's jealous. He sees you as his and your husband as competition. He doesn't want to share. (Seems to me there's an age when this is not uncommon.)
> that kind of thing and that Daddy has a right to live in his home without being rude to,
> and that he must stop. That seems to be about as effective as saying nothing.
> In fact saying nothing might be better?
Maybe your husband smells funny to him. Just some biochemical reaction.
Maybe there's something that rubs him the wrong way about how your husband interacts with him. Not necessarily wrong in a universal sense but something he personally doesn't like.
It would be helpful to figure it out, but maybe you can't know. He might not know. You could ask -- if you can listen without giving him negative feedback.
Ultimately his feelings are his feelings and he can't (yet) control them.
But you can help him react to his feelings better. Telling him he's rude doesn't give him better tools. It just makes him angry and hurt.
Engage him some other time well away from the moment, like during the day. Don't explain a lot! Keep it simple. He probably already knows what he's saying is hurtful. You've already told him people need to be safe (though it sounds like you used too many words.) Go right to coming up with a better way he can ask for what he wants.
But the less he's put in the position where he feels he needs to be rude to get what he wants the better.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristin Ames
Though my son is a little younger than yours, I can relate to the
situation you describe. My son has behaved similarly with his dad & it
works best for all of us
if I clear out for their time together, though it's not always possible.
If you have a workshop close by, that sounds like a great solution & I'd
try it out for a few weeks, being willing to go through some resistance
from your son at first but see how it goes.
For us, my son was not always happy about his dad time at first,
cried/yelled/kicked/etc pretty hard at my departure but my husband said it
ended pretty quickly after I was gone.
He made efforts to validate Eli's feelings (even as his were at times hurt,
or angry) & to not jolly him or bully him out of it, just be with him &
wait it out. I don't think you're being too soft, hard discipline about his
treatment of his dad won't result in bringing them closer.
Once they followed me to my destination,by the way, after some texting, so
we were flexible about it when possible which I think helped Eli.
Your husband may surprise you & step up too when he doesn't have you to
fall back on or looking over his shoulder. He may not play just the way you
do or the way you'd like & it may take a while for the two of them to work
out how it is they play & communicate without you between them. All good
things for them, I think.
At times, I've been annoyed that on occasion all they do is watch videos
together until i get back, but I decided it was important that I didn't
interfere with how they choose to spend their time. Honestly, his dad
loves it when that's the activity choice & so he's less uptight which makes
them both more comfortable.
Now Eli will ask (tell) me to leave when it's his dad time btw, quite a
turnaround.....so they sorted things out after a while & our family time is
much improved for my making space for them too.
WIth you working from the workshop, what would the worst case be? Maybe
they end up walking down the road to you, at least then they're outside
together & you got a little work done.
Kristin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
situation you describe. My son has behaved similarly with his dad & it
works best for all of us
if I clear out for their time together, though it's not always possible.
If you have a workshop close by, that sounds like a great solution & I'd
try it out for a few weeks, being willing to go through some resistance
from your son at first but see how it goes.
For us, my son was not always happy about his dad time at first,
cried/yelled/kicked/etc pretty hard at my departure but my husband said it
ended pretty quickly after I was gone.
He made efforts to validate Eli's feelings (even as his were at times hurt,
or angry) & to not jolly him or bully him out of it, just be with him &
wait it out. I don't think you're being too soft, hard discipline about his
treatment of his dad won't result in bringing them closer.
Once they followed me to my destination,by the way, after some texting, so
we were flexible about it when possible which I think helped Eli.
Your husband may surprise you & step up too when he doesn't have you to
fall back on or looking over his shoulder. He may not play just the way you
do or the way you'd like & it may take a while for the two of them to work
out how it is they play & communicate without you between them. All good
things for them, I think.
At times, I've been annoyed that on occasion all they do is watch videos
together until i get back, but I decided it was important that I didn't
interfere with how they choose to spend their time. Honestly, his dad
loves it when that's the activity choice & so he's less uptight which makes
them both more comfortable.
Now Eli will ask (tell) me to leave when it's his dad time btw, quite a
turnaround.....so they sorted things out after a while & our family time is
much improved for my making space for them too.
WIth you working from the workshop, what would the worst case be? Maybe
they end up walking down the road to you, at least then they're outside
together & you got a little work done.
Kristin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jo Isaac
I am in a similar situation - very similar I guess - I have a 5-year old son, an only child, and I work from home, usually in the back room. I don't have to do that as often as you, but when I do, I usually have a deadline (i'm a freelance writer - and have a tendency to leave things to the last minute!) and need a good few undisturbed hours in there to get an article finished.
If I really need a good portion of time, I ask them to go out. We brainstorm ideas until we come up with something Kai wants to do. Ideally it's a fairly long way away, to avoid the possibility they come home before i'm done - because if he's home, he does come into the room to find me - just because normally i'm the one who does stuff for him - gets drinks, makes snacks, etc - he's not used to his Dad doing that so much in the daytime. Things they've done include the zoo, go-karting, movies, indoor play places, fishing....perhaps you can come up with and idea that could become a regular thing? My son just likes to go to the mall, have sushi and browse the gaming shops?
Perhaps if they could have something 'they' do, a weekly ritual, so to speak, it might help their relationship too?
==Something I have been doing recently is trying to be extra caring and gentle with my husband. I thought it might help if Sam saw me taking the time to be more affectionate and caring. Even if it doesn't help, I figure it will still be nice for my husband!==
Yes, but if you do this in front of your son, it is likely to exacerbate the problems he's feeling toward his father. Can you just be normal to your husband when your son is around, and perhaps try and spend extra time with him when your son is asleep?
==I suggested to my husband that he come home with little presents, or fun things to show Sam or to do with him. He doesn't want to bring presents (I think he feels like he'd be trying to buy his affection), but says he will try to be more interesting to my son, but it is very hard because there are no 'windows'.==
I tend to agree with your husband, unless your husband genuinely finds things he thinks your son is into? My own father often tried to buy my affection with trinkets as a child - i was never fooled and privately resented him for doing it.
Perhaps a weekly ritual can be a window - something for just them when you are working? My son and husband wrestle. That's their thing - I guess their window. They have all sorts of little rituals that go along with wrestling that I have no idea about! Does your son play video games? Could your husband join in with those and they play together?
==Another possibility that has been on my mind is that I could change where I work, and move my office out of our house back to our workshop up the road (about a mile away), so that there is a natural boundary around the days I work, and his only choice is Daddy on those days.==
I would do this. Without hesitation. I don't have that option, but boy - i wish i did! I think you will obviously get more work done, and it will give your son and husband a chance to find their 'window'.
I hope some of this helps. Good luck,
Jo (yes - same name too!)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If I really need a good portion of time, I ask them to go out. We brainstorm ideas until we come up with something Kai wants to do. Ideally it's a fairly long way away, to avoid the possibility they come home before i'm done - because if he's home, he does come into the room to find me - just because normally i'm the one who does stuff for him - gets drinks, makes snacks, etc - he's not used to his Dad doing that so much in the daytime. Things they've done include the zoo, go-karting, movies, indoor play places, fishing....perhaps you can come up with and idea that could become a regular thing? My son just likes to go to the mall, have sushi and browse the gaming shops?
Perhaps if they could have something 'they' do, a weekly ritual, so to speak, it might help their relationship too?
==Something I have been doing recently is trying to be extra caring and gentle with my husband. I thought it might help if Sam saw me taking the time to be more affectionate and caring. Even if it doesn't help, I figure it will still be nice for my husband!==
Yes, but if you do this in front of your son, it is likely to exacerbate the problems he's feeling toward his father. Can you just be normal to your husband when your son is around, and perhaps try and spend extra time with him when your son is asleep?
==I suggested to my husband that he come home with little presents, or fun things to show Sam or to do with him. He doesn't want to bring presents (I think he feels like he'd be trying to buy his affection), but says he will try to be more interesting to my son, but it is very hard because there are no 'windows'.==
I tend to agree with your husband, unless your husband genuinely finds things he thinks your son is into? My own father often tried to buy my affection with trinkets as a child - i was never fooled and privately resented him for doing it.
Perhaps a weekly ritual can be a window - something for just them when you are working? My son and husband wrestle. That's their thing - I guess their window. They have all sorts of little rituals that go along with wrestling that I have no idea about! Does your son play video games? Could your husband join in with those and they play together?
==Another possibility that has been on my mind is that I could change where I work, and move my office out of our house back to our workshop up the road (about a mile away), so that there is a natural boundary around the days I work, and his only choice is Daddy on those days.==
I would do this. Without hesitation. I don't have that option, but boy - i wish i did! I think you will obviously get more work done, and it will give your son and husband a chance to find their 'window'.
I hope some of this helps. Good luck,
Jo (yes - same name too!)
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Pam Sorooshian
On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:05 PM, Jo Isaac <joanneisaac@...> wrote:
mother-in-law carried some little candies in her purse and would put one in
my daughters' hands when she first saw them. They were little - 5 and 2
years old - the first time they met her - and they always have associated
grandma with that little gift and it was very nice. I didn't see it as
"buying" their affection, but of creating a pleasant association. They
didn't feel "bought" - they felt like their grandmother was a really nice
person who thought about them and cared about them. I thought that was
really smart of her!
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> He doesn't want to bring presents (I think he feels like he'd be trying toKids are VERY concrete thinkers and little gifts can mean a lot to them. My
> buy his affection),
mother-in-law carried some little candies in her purse and would put one in
my daughters' hands when she first saw them. They were little - 5 and 2
years old - the first time they met her - and they always have associated
grandma with that little gift and it was very nice. I didn't see it as
"buying" their affection, but of creating a pleasant association. They
didn't feel "bought" - they felt like their grandmother was a really nice
person who thought about them and cared about them. I thought that was
really smart of her!
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***They didn't feel "bought" - they felt like their grandmother was a really nice
person who thought about them and cared about them. I thought that was
really smart of her!***
This might be a case of "it's all in the delivery!"
My husband has always brought home little gifts and surprises for his kids! Not every day, not all the time, but so many times that they definitely equate their dad with the being the more generous of their parents! I give lots of my time, but like Pam said, kids are concrete thinkers! Time is NOT at all the same thing as candy!
If kids are feeling unheard and neglected because no parents put in the time, then gifts could very well be seen as buying love. For parents that put in the time, gifts are just that, little tokens of affection.
Intent matters too. My husband was never trying to buy their affection, he was doing it because he would think of them when he was out and about and he wanted to come home and give them something that he knew they would love, something that would put a smile on their faces, no matter what mood they might be in when he arrived.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
person who thought about them and cared about them. I thought that was
really smart of her!***
This might be a case of "it's all in the delivery!"
My husband has always brought home little gifts and surprises for his kids! Not every day, not all the time, but so many times that they definitely equate their dad with the being the more generous of their parents! I give lots of my time, but like Pam said, kids are concrete thinkers! Time is NOT at all the same thing as candy!
If kids are feeling unheard and neglected because no parents put in the time, then gifts could very well be seen as buying love. For parents that put in the time, gifts are just that, little tokens of affection.
Intent matters too. My husband was never trying to buy their affection, he was doing it because he would think of them when he was out and about and he wanted to come home and give them something that he knew they would love, something that would put a smile on their faces, no matter what mood they might be in when he arrived.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jo kirby
I just wanted to say a big thank you to everyone who replied to this post. For the past few days I have been more proactive about saying I need to work on something, so that my husband doesn't have to be the one saying "Mummy has to work now, come on Sam". This seems to have helped a little which feels good. We are also trying that any situation where Sam and I are together, my husband doesn't come and interrupt or try to get involved, maybe just come to sit with us or be in the same room. Then after a while he slowly gets involved. I think before it was feeling like Daddy signalled the end of Mummy time to Sam. Now Dad is less threatening maybe. We'll see how it goes...
Thank you for all your comments, experiences and ideas,
Jo
________________________________
From: jo kirby <jokirby2004@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2012, 11:50
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Help with son and father's relationship
Hi all, I would very much appreciate your thoughts on this, which is currently going on pretty much on a daily basis in our house:
My son is just five, and an only child. He and I have always been very close, and we spend a lot of time together, generally having a great time. However, I work two days a week and on those days my husband (his Dad) takes care of him. I work from home, and whilst I try to stay focussed on my work, I am ultimately available and he does come to visit me in my work room quite a lot. My husband tries to discourage this, because he knows I need to get on with my work, and I tend to give him a few minutes, but then gently remind him that I need to get on with my work now, and Daddy is here to play with him.
For a long time now he has often expressed his dislike of his Dad. (It's not consistent - he also will often tell him in private how much he loves him etc.), but it seems if I'm around or in his mind he will be very verbal about preferring me. This quite often gets to the point where it is upsetting for both my husband and myself, I mean, he will shout "I don't want you, I want Mummy", or make aggressive arghhhhh noises at my husband to express his dislike. Quite often he will simply ignore his Dad's questions, not say hello to him when he comes home, tells him he can't join in the game etc. He makes it very obvious that he doesn't want Daddy, in a way that comes across as very unkind. He will then turn to me and smile and apparently expect me to just get on with something lovely with him, like a story or a game or whatever.
We have asked him to speak to Daddy kindly. Recently I have started to tell him that he is being rude to Daddy when he does that kind of thing and that Daddy has a right to live in his home without being rude to, and that he must stop. That seems to be about as effective as saying nothing. In fact saying nothing might be better?, in that it makes less of a deal out of it, and we have tried that for a while too. I have also begun to tell him that I am finding it upsetting too, not just Daddy, but again I'm not sure if that's a good idea. This week my husband suggested maybe Sam should be sent to school, to "teach him how to behave more politely toward people." Of course there are arguments that school probably won't teach him that at all..., I only mention it to illustrate something of how my husband is feeling. This situation does not seem to be improving. I am so unsure how to handle it.
Something I have been doing recently is trying to be extra caring and gentle with my husband. I thought it might help if Sam saw me taking the time to be more affectionate and caring. Even if it doesn't help, I figure it will still be nice for my husband!
I do think we have got into a pattern where my husband comes downstairs or comes home and expects to be unwanted, so he just does his own thing (and in some ways that kind of suits him), or sometimes he wants to talk to me about business, so then he doesn't seem that fun or interesting. I am trying to help him feel more welcome and appreciated. However, my son seems to prefer it if I barely speak to him! I think he sees his Dad as someone who potentially interrupts my focus on him. If I invite my husband to join in with us, the chances are Sam will shout "NO!, I don't want Daddy", which leads to feelings of unease and upset or anger in one or more of us, so I tend to just carry on focussing on Sam, to keep the peace really. Sometimes I will say "No, that's not kind, Daddy is allowed to play too" and then Sam will either agree or get upset depending how he's feeling. I am constantly feeling in the middle, which most of the time I can manage ok, but
sometimes I just get exhausted with it. (Another side issue with this is that sometimes I could really do with a little bit of headspace, and there is someone there able and willing to take over for a few minutes, but it has become almost impossible for me to have without a fuss, so it's not worth it. In the moment I often find the stress of negotiating more than the benefit of the time alone, but it means that sometimes I get to burnout, because I haven't taken those moments.)
I suggested to my husband that he come home with little presents, or fun things to show Sam or to do with him. He doesn't want to bring presents (I think he feels like he'd be trying to buy his affection), but says he will try to be more interesting to my son, but it is very hard because there are no 'windows'. I said maybe he doesn't need a window, just start doing the thing and if it's interesting to him Sam will come to get involved. But he says he is feeling very raw and doesn't want to feel criticised, and doesn't want suggestions.
When I first started working from home, my husband and I agreed that they would go out on the days I work. But this quickly stopped happening, because they often don't want to go out. And I can see their argument of why should they, just because I'm working from home?
Another possibility that has been on my mind is that I could change where I work, and move my office out of our house back to our workshop up the road (about a mile away), so that there is a natural boundary around the days I work, and his only choice is Daddy on those days. My main hesitation with this is that Sam will be even less happy with the situation, even though it might be clearer. And I'm not sure it would help his relationship with his Dad in general, it might lead him to even more resentment.
I have not found a way in which I can get all my work done in the evenings, as most often Sam is not asleep until around 9.30 or 10pm, by which time I am just too tired to begin a focussed, creative, work session.
I would very much appreciate knowing if this sounds like an age related trait which will naturally improve with care and time? Should we try to ignore it more, and Sam will naturally, with time, become less contrary to his father? Or are we getting something wrong somehow? Are we being too soft here?, I mean, sometimes I feel that Sam has the trump card to basically behave as he likes because we chose not to use punishing techniques and the natural consequences (us being sad or upset for example) don't seem to bother him that much. Has anyone else been through something similar?
Please feel free to ask for more details if I haven't explained enough.
I would very much appreciate any help, I am finding this very stressful and therefore it is affecting my parenting (and our family life and our marriage and my work and my peace) :-(
Thank you in advance,
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thank you for all your comments, experiences and ideas,
Jo
________________________________
From: jo kirby <jokirby2004@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2012, 11:50
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Help with son and father's relationship
Hi all, I would very much appreciate your thoughts on this, which is currently going on pretty much on a daily basis in our house:
My son is just five, and an only child. He and I have always been very close, and we spend a lot of time together, generally having a great time. However, I work two days a week and on those days my husband (his Dad) takes care of him. I work from home, and whilst I try to stay focussed on my work, I am ultimately available and he does come to visit me in my work room quite a lot. My husband tries to discourage this, because he knows I need to get on with my work, and I tend to give him a few minutes, but then gently remind him that I need to get on with my work now, and Daddy is here to play with him.
For a long time now he has often expressed his dislike of his Dad. (It's not consistent - he also will often tell him in private how much he loves him etc.), but it seems if I'm around or in his mind he will be very verbal about preferring me. This quite often gets to the point where it is upsetting for both my husband and myself, I mean, he will shout "I don't want you, I want Mummy", or make aggressive arghhhhh noises at my husband to express his dislike. Quite often he will simply ignore his Dad's questions, not say hello to him when he comes home, tells him he can't join in the game etc. He makes it very obvious that he doesn't want Daddy, in a way that comes across as very unkind. He will then turn to me and smile and apparently expect me to just get on with something lovely with him, like a story or a game or whatever.
We have asked him to speak to Daddy kindly. Recently I have started to tell him that he is being rude to Daddy when he does that kind of thing and that Daddy has a right to live in his home without being rude to, and that he must stop. That seems to be about as effective as saying nothing. In fact saying nothing might be better?, in that it makes less of a deal out of it, and we have tried that for a while too. I have also begun to tell him that I am finding it upsetting too, not just Daddy, but again I'm not sure if that's a good idea. This week my husband suggested maybe Sam should be sent to school, to "teach him how to behave more politely toward people." Of course there are arguments that school probably won't teach him that at all..., I only mention it to illustrate something of how my husband is feeling. This situation does not seem to be improving. I am so unsure how to handle it.
Something I have been doing recently is trying to be extra caring and gentle with my husband. I thought it might help if Sam saw me taking the time to be more affectionate and caring. Even if it doesn't help, I figure it will still be nice for my husband!
I do think we have got into a pattern where my husband comes downstairs or comes home and expects to be unwanted, so he just does his own thing (and in some ways that kind of suits him), or sometimes he wants to talk to me about business, so then he doesn't seem that fun or interesting. I am trying to help him feel more welcome and appreciated. However, my son seems to prefer it if I barely speak to him! I think he sees his Dad as someone who potentially interrupts my focus on him. If I invite my husband to join in with us, the chances are Sam will shout "NO!, I don't want Daddy", which leads to feelings of unease and upset or anger in one or more of us, so I tend to just carry on focussing on Sam, to keep the peace really. Sometimes I will say "No, that's not kind, Daddy is allowed to play too" and then Sam will either agree or get upset depending how he's feeling. I am constantly feeling in the middle, which most of the time I can manage ok, but
sometimes I just get exhausted with it. (Another side issue with this is that sometimes I could really do with a little bit of headspace, and there is someone there able and willing to take over for a few minutes, but it has become almost impossible for me to have without a fuss, so it's not worth it. In the moment I often find the stress of negotiating more than the benefit of the time alone, but it means that sometimes I get to burnout, because I haven't taken those moments.)
I suggested to my husband that he come home with little presents, or fun things to show Sam or to do with him. He doesn't want to bring presents (I think he feels like he'd be trying to buy his affection), but says he will try to be more interesting to my son, but it is very hard because there are no 'windows'. I said maybe he doesn't need a window, just start doing the thing and if it's interesting to him Sam will come to get involved. But he says he is feeling very raw and doesn't want to feel criticised, and doesn't want suggestions.
When I first started working from home, my husband and I agreed that they would go out on the days I work. But this quickly stopped happening, because they often don't want to go out. And I can see their argument of why should they, just because I'm working from home?
Another possibility that has been on my mind is that I could change where I work, and move my office out of our house back to our workshop up the road (about a mile away), so that there is a natural boundary around the days I work, and his only choice is Daddy on those days. My main hesitation with this is that Sam will be even less happy with the situation, even though it might be clearer. And I'm not sure it would help his relationship with his Dad in general, it might lead him to even more resentment.
I have not found a way in which I can get all my work done in the evenings, as most often Sam is not asleep until around 9.30 or 10pm, by which time I am just too tired to begin a focussed, creative, work session.
I would very much appreciate knowing if this sounds like an age related trait which will naturally improve with care and time? Should we try to ignore it more, and Sam will naturally, with time, become less contrary to his father? Or are we getting something wrong somehow? Are we being too soft here?, I mean, sometimes I feel that Sam has the trump card to basically behave as he likes because we chose not to use punishing techniques and the natural consequences (us being sad or upset for example) don't seem to bother him that much. Has anyone else been through something similar?
Please feel free to ask for more details if I haven't explained enough.
I would very much appreciate any help, I am finding this very stressful and therefore it is affecting my parenting (and our family life and our marriage and my work and my peace) :-(
Thank you in advance,
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]