Re: [AlwaysLearning] What would you do? Was: Questions about this list and Un...
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/29/2002 9:24:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dvilter@... writes:
when they're not talking about robotics?
Is this your only hang-up? Would you be more/less concerned if he were a
pedophile or a wife/child beater or a drug pusher? How about a link to child
porn sites?
I think that if it doesn't interfere with his (and your son's) love of
robotics, it shouldn't matter. You can't change him. You CAN get as much
knowledge from him about robotics and avoid any discussion of race relations
with him.
If this were a genetics class---or anthropology or sociology--it would
probably make a big difference. It's robotics (are white robots better?).
I bet there are millions of VERY interesting people that have "unsavory"
interests that no one knows about---but they're good at what they do, and it
doesn't enter into their daily language. As long as my child weren't "at
risk", I wouldn't worry about it.
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dvilter@... writes:
> My question is: What would you do in this situation?Does it interfere with his knowledge of robotics? Does he push it on your son
>
> I'm not asking a political or racial question here, I'm asking an
> educational one.
>
when they're not talking about robotics?
Is this your only hang-up? Would you be more/less concerned if he were a
pedophile or a wife/child beater or a drug pusher? How about a link to child
porn sites?
I think that if it doesn't interfere with his (and your son's) love of
robotics, it shouldn't matter. You can't change him. You CAN get as much
knowledge from him about robotics and avoid any discussion of race relations
with him.
If this were a genetics class---or anthropology or sociology--it would
probably make a big difference. It's robotics (are white robots better?).
I bet there are millions of VERY interesting people that have "unsavory"
interests that no one knows about---but they're good at what they do, and it
doesn't enter into their daily language. As long as my child weren't "at
risk", I wouldn't worry about it.
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joylyn
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
I'm assuming the teacher is white, but what
is the race of the child? Is it OK for the
child to have contact with a racist person if
the child is of the same race, but it would
be wrong if the child was black or another
race? Isn't that idea racist?
One reason we homeschool is because research
says that black childrne are touched less
than white children. And dark black children
are touched less than light black children.
This is true even if the teacher is black
herself and doesn't have a website saying
whites are better. It is true even if the
teacher is teaching something not related to
race or social studies. How we interact with
others is important. Body language is 60-80%
of our communication, and is very powerful.
Another reason is because of subtle messages.
I read an article about this little girl who
in 2nd grade was doing wonderfully. Then in
3rd grade she started having problems.
Teacher reporting lots of problems, problems
getting along with kids, with teachers, etc.
At a conference, the teacher said things like
"she just doesn't seem to know who to be
friends with" and other telling statements
that let the parents know the teacher felt
the child had social issues. The teacher
also said she was having problems with math.
Ends up the teacher had decided that as the
child was multiracial that the child was
going to have problems figuring out whether
she was black or white, and have problems
knowing who she should be firends with, the
black kids or the white kids. The teacher
also assumed the child would have problems in
math and in other areas. The parents removed
the child from that classroom and the
"problems" went away. The teacher, I'm sure,
was unaware of her own inherent racism and
how it affected her relationship with the
child and expectations of the child.
Subtle racism is everywhere and I don't
particularly want it to hurt my children more
than necessary. I cannot control every aspect
of their lives but I can control a lot of it,
especially when they are younger. As you
said, we don't know the hidden interests of
people around us, but in this case, we DO
know the hidden interest of this man.
Last night I did a home visit (I'm a LLL
Leader). As I'm asking my usual questions, I
ask about circ. Baby is intact and I know my
relief was apparent. This is my bias. The
mom noticed this and asked me and I just said
the standard line of how babies that are
circed often have problems breastfeeding, but
my bias showed. We ALL have biases, and they
will come out. I certainly don't want a
person's bias against black people to come
out while that person is teaching my
daughter, even if the subject matter has
nothing to do with black people.
My husband clearly remembers when a teacher
told him that he shouldn't be running for
student body president or taking honors
English because he wasn't going to be able to
go to college anyway, he might as well take
auto shop and learn a trade. The young
college age checker at the grocery store
didn't realize what his words meant when he
asked me, in front of my two children, how
long I'd had my "foster children." White
lady, black children, those kids must be in
foster care. Whether the ignorant statements
or messages are intended to cause pain or
not, they have the same ability to cause
pain. People often say intentions are
important, think about intent. And that's
true, but when the little old white lady rubs
my child's hair and says "she's so pretty and
smart, oh she is so pretty, what a beautiful
child, oh what beautiful skin" and my own
skin is crawling with her forced attempt at
trying not to be racist and my insticts are
telling me she surely is--well, intent means
nothing. Subtle racism, even when you can't
quite put a finger on it, when you just know
something isn't right, is still racism and
still causes harm.
Many years ago when I complained to my mom
about the dirty looks my then fiance and I
got when we went someplace, my mom made a
very intersting comment. She said "you can
either assume they are looking at you because
they dislike the fact you are with a black
man or that Mark is with a white woman or you
can assume that they are thinking what a nice
looking couple you are, and you can smile
back at them." I thought about this and
realized that she was right. Now,
occasionally, they really are looking at us
with disgust and hate but by smiling at them
I am not allowing their hate to change my
outlook, and occassionally I find that I am
wrong. I did the same with breastfeeding in
public. People would scrowl at me and I
woudl simply lift my head, smile at them, and
assume they were admiring my beautiful baby.
But these are strangers, and would I want one
of these racist bigots to have contact with
my child? I don't think so. I've choosen
that my children don't have contact with
their great grandmother because she is a
racist bigot, although they have met her a
few times with me hovering close. I would
never leave them alone together, not until
they are much older and better able to handle
things. But then again, I was in my late
20's when she disowned me for marrying a
black man, and I can't say I handled it well,
and I still feel the pain--so when will they
be old enough?
I'm sure all of us can think back and
remember one comment or one incident that has
changed us, either for good, or for bad. I
remember my 10th grade writing teacher
telling me that I would never be a writer,
which is and has always been my dream. "Find
something else to do Joylyn, because you'll
never be a writer." I still almost want to
cry when I think of those hurtful words,
still remember her name (Mrs. Sleeter, I
called her Mrs. sleezebutt), the room where
we were, and how I felt afterwards. Each of
us has the power to affect a child's life,
and I just don't think it's a good idea to
allow a child to be with a man who obviously
has a different opinion on such an important
subject.
I admit I haven't been following this
conversation too closely, so I don't remember
the age of the child, the length of contact,
if the child is alone with the man or if the
parent is present at all times, etc. All
those are factors. Also, does the man know
how you feel, that you know his personal
beliefs and that while you respect him as an
expert on Robots you do not share his beliefs
and that you wish for him to make an effort
to not share those beliefs with the child?
If he is open to this type of relationship,
and if for the most part a parent will be
there at all times, supervising the contact,
then I'd say that it would probably be OK.
If he says that his beliefs are vital to his
being and that he doesn't leave them at the
door, then that is a different story. I can
understand and respect that viewpoint--I
unfortunately have many racists in my family,
and my children and I are not welcome in some
of their homes--which brings the question....
Do I WANT my children to have contact with
such people, relatives or not. For the most
part the answer is no, but in reality I have
choosen to have limited contact with some of
these people, monitoring closely any contact
so that I can head off any problems.
That said, I firmly believe that no person
can make my children believe something they
don't wish to believe, including myself. I
remember having discussions with Lexie, then
age 4, about Hell. She firmly believed that
there was a hell, and I do not, and she would
not back down on her idea that hell was a
real physical place. This is good (not that
she believes in hell but that she can stand
up to her believes,) I think we need to
respect our children and trust that they will
make good decisions, and that they will not
be swayed by people that come into their
lives, just as we trust them to learn and
grow. It's an interesting delima, on one
hand, to use my example from above, what
effect did the words my teacher use when I
was 15, in telling me I would never be a
professional writer, have on the fact that at
age 36 I still WANT to be a professional
writer but that I have difficulty buckling
down and doing it--I certainly wavered in
college, my degree is in English with an
emphases on writing and literature, but I
went into teaching.
Well, I've rambled enough, I guess in summary
I'd say that I'd think long and hard before
allowing my child constant and especially
unsupervised contact with someone who holds
such horrible beliefs. If you've read all of
this, thank you.
Joylyn
--
Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to
www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a
very dull person to spell a word only one
way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>but what is your definition of "at risk?"
>
> I bet there are millions of VERY
> interesting people that have "unsavory"
> interests that no one knows about---but
> they're good at what they do, and it
> doesn't enter into their daily language. As
> long as my child weren't "at
> risk", I wouldn't worry about it.
>
I'm assuming the teacher is white, but what
is the race of the child? Is it OK for the
child to have contact with a racist person if
the child is of the same race, but it would
be wrong if the child was black or another
race? Isn't that idea racist?
One reason we homeschool is because research
says that black childrne are touched less
than white children. And dark black children
are touched less than light black children.
This is true even if the teacher is black
herself and doesn't have a website saying
whites are better. It is true even if the
teacher is teaching something not related to
race or social studies. How we interact with
others is important. Body language is 60-80%
of our communication, and is very powerful.
Another reason is because of subtle messages.
I read an article about this little girl who
in 2nd grade was doing wonderfully. Then in
3rd grade she started having problems.
Teacher reporting lots of problems, problems
getting along with kids, with teachers, etc.
At a conference, the teacher said things like
"she just doesn't seem to know who to be
friends with" and other telling statements
that let the parents know the teacher felt
the child had social issues. The teacher
also said she was having problems with math.
Ends up the teacher had decided that as the
child was multiracial that the child was
going to have problems figuring out whether
she was black or white, and have problems
knowing who she should be firends with, the
black kids or the white kids. The teacher
also assumed the child would have problems in
math and in other areas. The parents removed
the child from that classroom and the
"problems" went away. The teacher, I'm sure,
was unaware of her own inherent racism and
how it affected her relationship with the
child and expectations of the child.
Subtle racism is everywhere and I don't
particularly want it to hurt my children more
than necessary. I cannot control every aspect
of their lives but I can control a lot of it,
especially when they are younger. As you
said, we don't know the hidden interests of
people around us, but in this case, we DO
know the hidden interest of this man.
Last night I did a home visit (I'm a LLL
Leader). As I'm asking my usual questions, I
ask about circ. Baby is intact and I know my
relief was apparent. This is my bias. The
mom noticed this and asked me and I just said
the standard line of how babies that are
circed often have problems breastfeeding, but
my bias showed. We ALL have biases, and they
will come out. I certainly don't want a
person's bias against black people to come
out while that person is teaching my
daughter, even if the subject matter has
nothing to do with black people.
My husband clearly remembers when a teacher
told him that he shouldn't be running for
student body president or taking honors
English because he wasn't going to be able to
go to college anyway, he might as well take
auto shop and learn a trade. The young
college age checker at the grocery store
didn't realize what his words meant when he
asked me, in front of my two children, how
long I'd had my "foster children." White
lady, black children, those kids must be in
foster care. Whether the ignorant statements
or messages are intended to cause pain or
not, they have the same ability to cause
pain. People often say intentions are
important, think about intent. And that's
true, but when the little old white lady rubs
my child's hair and says "she's so pretty and
smart, oh she is so pretty, what a beautiful
child, oh what beautiful skin" and my own
skin is crawling with her forced attempt at
trying not to be racist and my insticts are
telling me she surely is--well, intent means
nothing. Subtle racism, even when you can't
quite put a finger on it, when you just know
something isn't right, is still racism and
still causes harm.
Many years ago when I complained to my mom
about the dirty looks my then fiance and I
got when we went someplace, my mom made a
very intersting comment. She said "you can
either assume they are looking at you because
they dislike the fact you are with a black
man or that Mark is with a white woman or you
can assume that they are thinking what a nice
looking couple you are, and you can smile
back at them." I thought about this and
realized that she was right. Now,
occasionally, they really are looking at us
with disgust and hate but by smiling at them
I am not allowing their hate to change my
outlook, and occassionally I find that I am
wrong. I did the same with breastfeeding in
public. People would scrowl at me and I
woudl simply lift my head, smile at them, and
assume they were admiring my beautiful baby.
But these are strangers, and would I want one
of these racist bigots to have contact with
my child? I don't think so. I've choosen
that my children don't have contact with
their great grandmother because she is a
racist bigot, although they have met her a
few times with me hovering close. I would
never leave them alone together, not until
they are much older and better able to handle
things. But then again, I was in my late
20's when she disowned me for marrying a
black man, and I can't say I handled it well,
and I still feel the pain--so when will they
be old enough?
I'm sure all of us can think back and
remember one comment or one incident that has
changed us, either for good, or for bad. I
remember my 10th grade writing teacher
telling me that I would never be a writer,
which is and has always been my dream. "Find
something else to do Joylyn, because you'll
never be a writer." I still almost want to
cry when I think of those hurtful words,
still remember her name (Mrs. Sleeter, I
called her Mrs. sleezebutt), the room where
we were, and how I felt afterwards. Each of
us has the power to affect a child's life,
and I just don't think it's a good idea to
allow a child to be with a man who obviously
has a different opinion on such an important
subject.
I admit I haven't been following this
conversation too closely, so I don't remember
the age of the child, the length of contact,
if the child is alone with the man or if the
parent is present at all times, etc. All
those are factors. Also, does the man know
how you feel, that you know his personal
beliefs and that while you respect him as an
expert on Robots you do not share his beliefs
and that you wish for him to make an effort
to not share those beliefs with the child?
If he is open to this type of relationship,
and if for the most part a parent will be
there at all times, supervising the contact,
then I'd say that it would probably be OK.
If he says that his beliefs are vital to his
being and that he doesn't leave them at the
door, then that is a different story. I can
understand and respect that viewpoint--I
unfortunately have many racists in my family,
and my children and I are not welcome in some
of their homes--which brings the question....
Do I WANT my children to have contact with
such people, relatives or not. For the most
part the answer is no, but in reality I have
choosen to have limited contact with some of
these people, monitoring closely any contact
so that I can head off any problems.
That said, I firmly believe that no person
can make my children believe something they
don't wish to believe, including myself. I
remember having discussions with Lexie, then
age 4, about Hell. She firmly believed that
there was a hell, and I do not, and she would
not back down on her idea that hell was a
real physical place. This is good (not that
she believes in hell but that she can stand
up to her believes,) I think we need to
respect our children and trust that they will
make good decisions, and that they will not
be swayed by people that come into their
lives, just as we trust them to learn and
grow. It's an interesting delima, on one
hand, to use my example from above, what
effect did the words my teacher use when I
was 15, in telling me I would never be a
professional writer, have on the fact that at
age 36 I still WANT to be a professional
writer but that I have difficulty buckling
down and doing it--I certainly wavered in
college, my degree is in English with an
emphases on writing and literature, but I
went into teaching.
Well, I've rambled enough, I guess in summary
I'd say that I'd think long and hard before
allowing my child constant and especially
unsupervised contact with someone who holds
such horrible beliefs. If you've read all of
this, thank you.
Joylyn
--
Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to
www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a
very dull person to spell a word only one
way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joylyn
Some of the most prejudiced people I have
ever met have been black.
THeir is a neighbor girl, Ajin. She's
Korean. She can play with Lexie at our
house, go into our house, etc. but she has
told us that Lexie is not allowed in her
house. Only Asian people can go into her
house, but we have seen another little girl
in her house, and that girl is white, so we
know that only black people are not allowed
in their house. I really dislike this child,
she is so powerless, and she gets her power
off the other kids by setting them up and
then watching the fight. I'm pretty sure she
is being abused but have no proof and so
can't make a call or help. She is a passive
aggressive little monster and I hate it when
she comes over but as Lexie says, "it's not
Ajin's fault her parents are bigots."
Joylyn (laughing at the Alb and no black
people comment--mark was one of 9 at
Eldorado. There is a fair size community
down off 2nd street...)
SandraDodd@... wrote:
[Click Here!]
Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to
www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a
very dull person to spell a word only one
way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ever met have been black.
THeir is a neighbor girl, Ajin. She's
Korean. She can play with Lexie at our
house, go into our house, etc. but she has
told us that Lexie is not allowed in her
house. Only Asian people can go into her
house, but we have seen another little girl
in her house, and that girl is white, so we
know that only black people are not allowed
in their house. I really dislike this child,
she is so powerless, and she gets her power
off the other kids by setting them up and
then watching the fight. I'm pretty sure she
is being abused but have no proof and so
can't make a call or help. She is a passive
aggressive little monster and I hate it when
she comes over but as Lexie says, "it's not
Ajin's fault her parents are bigots."
Joylyn (laughing at the Alb and no black
people comment--mark was one of 9 at
Eldorado. There is a fair size community
down off 2nd street...)
SandraDodd@... wrote:
>ADVERTISEMENT
> In a message dated 5/1/02 12:30:27 PM,
> joylyn@... writes:
>
> << but what is your definition of "at
> risk?"
> I'm assuming the teacher is white, but what
>
> is the race of the child? Is it OK for the
>
> child to have contact with a racist person
> if
> the child is of the same race, but it would
>
> be wrong if the child was black or another
> race? Isn't that idea racist? >>
>
> We are friends with an African American
> family. The dad is pretty
> prejudiced. The mom and dad met at a
> meeting of the Afro-American Student
> Union in the early 1970's, in college. The
> dad can thereby assume the mother
> will not be too stunned by a fairly
> separatist attitude.
>
> Unfortunately for him, they moved to
> Albuquerque, and the kids have all white
> friends so far.
>
> Would it be okay for another Black family
> to hang around with them? (I think
> it's okay for us to, but I know it's not as
> pleasant for the dad as we'd all
> like for it to be, that his kids like me
> and mine so much.) Should only
> other prejudiced people hang around with
> him?
>
> I think we're softening him up. (Not just
> our family, but Albuquerque in
> general--before they had lived in NYC,
> Detroit and Houston, that I can
> remember.)
>
> Sandra
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to
www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a
very dull person to spell a word only one
way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]