[email protected]

Dan, I asked my son about your situation. Here is his advice.

If the guy is not a jerk at the club, if he's not excluding people, and
if you went there to learn about robotics, and he can give you what you
need, then keep going.
Sometimes you have to separate the man from the job.
You should tell your son in case he wouldn't feel the same way.

That's what a soon to be ten year old has to say on the subject.

Dylan thinks everyone can change and be better.

Deb L

[email protected]

<< Sometimes you have to separate the man from the job.
You should tell your son in case he wouldn't feel the same way. >>

I think separating the man from the job is what being non-prejudicial is all
about.

If a woman is turned down for a job just for being a woman, that's not right.
If an Asian is turned down for a scholarship just because he's Asian, that's
wrong. If a teacher refuses a student for being Hispanic, that's wrong.

So... If a ten year old rejects a teacher because he's gay (not obviously,
you'd have to look at his website and guess from a link to a support site) is
that bad?

But if the parents believe homosexuality is a biological truth and not "a
choice," then they should encourage the child the stay there rather than to
be unreasonably prejudiced.

What if a teacher had an anti-gay site (like any of thousands of religious
websites?)

What if the California robotics teacher had an anti-English site (because his
mom was in Northern Ireland, or because he was in a bagpipe marching band and
was still angry with England about stuff 500 years ago), but the family's
grandmother lives in England?

What if the family was republican, the grandfather was the majority leader in
the California state senate, and the teacher was a fundraiser for the
democrats?

Where is the line at which a parent will set a thirteen year old down for a
serious talk (darn, I forgot how old Matthew is) and say, "Son, we have to
talk. Your robotics teacher might have a belief which would prohibit us
leaving you in his custody if we die."

And again, if there are other robotics teachers to choose from, the weights
of factors change.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/30/02 8:37:45 AM, SandraDodd@... writes:

<< I think separating the man from the job is what being non-prejudicial is
all
about. >>

I misused "prejudicial" and I'm sorry about that but I don't feel like
re-writing.

[email protected]

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:31:41 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:

> I think separating the man from the job is what being
> non-prejudicial is all
> about.

This case seems harder, because the guy's belief is really hurtful to
others, really scary and maybe even dangerous. ( Geez, he could be my
mother! )

If you're a woman or gay or Asian, you haven't chosen those things, you
just are.

If you're prejudice, that's a choice, a character thing. If you don't
like prejudice people, are you prejudice?

Perplexing.

> Where is the line at which a parent will set a thirteen year old
> down for a
> serious talk.

Dylan has been through so many things, that it seems very natural to talk
to him about everything. I forget other kids are spared some of the
uglier things in life while they're young.

Deb L.

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/30/02 9:28:32 AM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< Dylan has been through so many things, that it seems very natural to talk
to him about everything. I forget other kids are spared some of the
uglier things in life while they're young. >>

It's not I think Matthew should be spared an ugly thing.

Maybe I think it's like hitting someone to teach them not to hit.

Dan found something. He's not totally sure what he's found.

Matthew's learning robotics from a guy who is generously sharing his time.

Dan COULD bring up prejudice, but not without BEING prejudiced.

And yes, there is a difference between being a racist and being white,
although this one guy can't tell the difference, and who knows WHY he's
racist? That might be another question to ask. I've talked to some people
with some strong prejudices who had reasons behind it--violence, rape, some
trauma or another followed by insult.

And the line between what is done by choice and what is inavoidable/natural
will be different for different people, homosexuality being a HUGE (broad,
unclear) line of demarcation. How about birth control? Would a family cease
to associate with a piano teacher because they found she had donated money to
Right to Choose or Planned Parenthood? How about religion? Are people just
BORN Baptist or Catholic, or do they CHOOSE to be that? Are people just BORN
Hindu? Are people just BORN Jewish?

<<If you're a woman or gay or Asian, you haven't chosen those things, you
just are.

<<If you're prejudice, that's a choice, a character thing. >>

If a ten year old is prejudiced, is it his choice? Parental influence?
Youthful ignorance and trust? (in friends/neighbors/robotics teachers?)

When does childhood end and "character choice" begin?

Sandra

Dan Vilter

on 4/30/02 6:58 AM, ddzimlew@... at ddzimlew@... wrote:

> Dan, I asked my son about your situation. Here is his advice.
>
> If the guy is not a jerk at the club, if he's not excluding people, and
> if you went there to learn about robotics, and he can give you what you
> need, then keep going.
> Sometimes you have to separate the man from the job.
> You should tell your son in case he wouldn't feel the same way.
>


This is the situation and I did indeed separate the man from the job. This
has allowed us to gain the benefit of his robotics acknowledge. I kept
thinking of that dozens of people I work with that I have suspicions about
not exactly sharing my view life. I'm forced to work with them to keep my
job. And I'm not about ask that real strange guy down and receiving if he's
a Nazi. We all have our beliefs and each is entitle to their own. The guy
in question never once promoted his ideas outside the field of robotics. It
was *me* that wandered outside the subject when I decided to cruise his web
site.
I haven't told my son about it. I think I'm being chicken or maybe just
overprotective, but it really shook me to the bone. It was very unsettling.
I didn't want my son to have to go through that. Maybe he should? I haven't
talked to the guy about because I'm afraid of what he might say. If he
tells me in a face-to-face confrontation about the subject that he has
strong feelings and promotes the ideas I will be forced to disassociate
myself with him. Maybe that's the heart of my question. Was this a good
life opportunity to discover the ugly side of behavior? Am I letting a good
opportunity to learn about a bad aspect of Society slip by? I certainly have
my guard up around this guy. When the meetings break up into individual
discussion and Matthew wants to talk to him I make a point to be by his
side. I'm not worried about Matthew's health or safety.

All this wondering, the what if-ing, particularly from Sandra, has got me
thinking. If his beliefs were promoting an anti-gay or anti Iranian or anti
northern European, rather than the generalized anybody-but-white, I might
have a different reaction. I have very close friends that gay or Iranian or
from northern Europe. I know my son and I have daily interaction with
people who are homophobic. But they don't promote these ideas publicly. If
they do, and I have any kind of control of the situation, I will take them
to task. I would do the same with this white supremacists horse hockey if
he promoted it in my presence. If he was a pedophile I would call him out in
front of the group. So is this a cop out?

Sandra, at these meetings the room is full of teachers, this guy is just one
of them. I do find myself going to the others if there's an option. I even
find myself looking at this guy's hair style and thinking it looks like
Hitler's. And no, I wouldn't leave Matthew in his custody if we die. There
are too many Iranian and gay people ahead of him on that list.<G> And yes,
the link is the trigger to this whole problem for me.

Deb L, I like your son's advice.

Nancy, One never does know. But I don't buy the passing interest argument,
not without some kind of disclaimer.

Dar, there are very few non-whites in this club. This guy has ever spouted
anything at these meetings outside the area of robotics.

And on another subject,
Kelly, yes I will be careful for what I wish for. The message count was up
to 77 by this morning. So far I think I can handle it. <G>

Ikes! I'm going to be late for work!

-Dan Vilter

Fetteroll

on 4/30/02 11:42 AM, Dan Vilter at dvilter@... wrote:

> Maybe that's the heart of my question. Was this a good
> life opportunity to discover the ugly side of behavior?

Which chunk of learning is more important to your son right now? That he
learn that some people have a hidden ugly side (and you're not positive this
is so) or that he learn more about robotics from a good teacher?

Joyce

[email protected]

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:40:54 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
>
> Maybe I think it's like hitting someone to teach them not to hit.

Oh, this is a good point. This is very perceptive of you, because that's
exactly the reason you would point out a thing like this up. It IS the
same.

> I've talked to some
> people
> with some strong prejudices who had reasons behind it--violence,
> rape, some
> trauma or another followed by insult.

If you were beat up by a bunch of high school kids who were white, I
don't think you'd forever be afraid of and angry at ALL white high school
kids. Maybe, but I don't think so. Not if you're white too.


Are people just BORN Jewish?
YES by God! <G>

>And the line between what is done by choice and what is
inavoidable/natural
>will be different for different people,...

> If a ten year old is prejudiced, is it his choice? Parental
> influence?
> Youthful ignorance and trust? (in friends/neighbors/robotics
> teachers?)
>
> When does childhood end and "character choice" begin?
>
Well this is the big question isn't it? There are a lot of people
locked up for violent crimes who were themselves victims as children. We
still hold them accountable for what they do as adults. ( and more
recently, as children, too.)

If a man was beaten as a child and grows up to beat his own children,
does he have a valid reason? Is that nature or character choice? Do we
try to understand it?

My head hurts.

Deb L

Jon and Rue Kream

>>>> Are people just BORN Jewish?

Well, Hitler thought so, but my atheist husband whose parents practice
judaism would disagree :). He'll also tell you that if it's true, I must be
"jewish by injection"! :0)

~Rue


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 4/30/02 12:14 PM, ddzimlew@... at ddzimlew@... wrote:

> If you were beat up by a bunch of high school kids who were white, I
> don't think you'd forever be afraid of and angry at ALL white high school
> kids. Maybe, but I don't think so. Not if you're white too.

Most white people have experience with lots of white teens so they aren't
going to associate all white teens with the behavior of one bunch of white
teens.

If a white guy were beaten up by a bunch of black teens and the only other
associations he had were the TV reports and TV images of black teens then
that would just reinforce the associations he had.

If a black guy living in a black neighborhood were beaten up by that bunch
of black teens, he'd be in the same position as the first example. He'd have
had lots of prior experience with a variety of black teens so his experience
with one bad bunch wouldn't be extended to them all.

Joyce