Dan Vilter

So I can't help but notice how spare the conversation has become here. I've
talked with Jocelyn and Pam who tell me that discussions have increased on
the Unschoolingdotcom list. I do miss the conversation here on
AlwaysLearning but I'm not interested in spending my time wading through the
contention and personal attacks that were so common on the Unschoolingdotcom
list last year when I quit it, at the time Sandra started this list.
Jocelyn tells me that the Unschoolingdotcom list is not nearly so bad as it
was last year, but is still far from the friendly atmosphere of this list.


The time I can spend on e-mail lists is limited and fluctuates wildly in
relation to my work schedule. I hope what I have to say is of benefit to
the unschooling community. But more importantly what everyone, and
especially the core posting people on this list have to say benefits me.
These postings have fallen to a minimum. I can only assume that people's
energies are being spent at Unschoolingdotcom or elsewhere. Good and/or
friendly doesn't much matter if there is little conversation.


So I have a few questions:

Are the core posters from this list now posting at Unschoolingdotcom?

What is your (collective) opinion on the environment at Unschoolingdotcom?

If it is becoming a better place to be than it was, and writings there have
a greater exposure to more people, what do you think is going to become of
AlwaysLearning?



I do long for those first 2 or 3 weeks of this list. It felt so alive and to
the point. I felt like I was in school again taking a graduate seminar in
unschooling. It was a honeymoon I guess.

Is it time for me to resubscribe to unschoolingdotcom?

I don't mean to be pushy, but it's getting lonely over here at
AlwaysLearning.


-Dan Vilter

[email protected]

I think it's more of a momentary lull than a bail out.
Things have slowed down form time to time as people catch up with their
real lives but it always seems to bounce back when some interesting topic
comes up.

I left unschooling-dotcom too, when things got nasty and haven't been
interested in going back for more. Maybe things are better there. I
don't care much about finding out.

I don't think the honeymoon's over. The last few posts of Sandra's, Pam
S, Pam H and others have been among the best ever.

Maybe you just need some ice cream, or something. <g>

I just saw there are 219 people on this list now. You may be sorry if
everyone starts posting!

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/02 12:21:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dvilter@...
writes:

<<
Are the core posters from this list now posting at Unschoolingdotcom?>>>

Yeah a few of them are.

<<What is your (collective) opinion on the environment at
Unschoolingdotcom?>>

Much better with Joyce moderating.

<<If it is becoming a better place to be than it was, and writings there have
a greater exposure to more people, what do you think is going to become of
AlwaysLearning?>>

I think its just a lull. Unschoolingdotcom has lulls, they all do. I think
Always
Learning is a different kind of list, even though it has some of the same
posters, and that could be because many of us came to this list knowing that
it was Sandra's list. So lots of us are on the same page so to speak.

<< Is it time for me to resubscribe to unschoolingdotcom?>>

Up to you : )

<< I don't mean to be pushy, but it's getting lonely over here at
AlwaysLearning.
>>
Ok, so lets talk <g>. You first (your last post doesn't count ; )

Kathy

Dan Vilter

on 4/28/02 7:12 PM, Natrlmama@... at Natrlmama@... wrote:

> << I don't mean to be pushy, but it's getting lonely over here at
> AlwaysLearning.
>>>
> Ok, so lets talk <g>. You first (your last post doesn't count ; )
>
> Kathy


OK,

I have been struggling with this situation for a while now.

An interest of my son's, as well as my own, has been robotics. We have been
attending the meetings of a robotics club for about three years now. It is
very enjoyable. I particularly like the brain power in the room. Most of
the members are retired aerospace and defense engineers. We both learned a
great deal from them. The meetings get me thinking in ways I don't normally
do. There is usually a kind of class about the basics of robotics before the
regular monthly meeting. During these classes we've learned about basic
electronics, programming, structure, robotic theory, and hardware
development. For about a year-and-a-half these class's were led by a
middle-aged, and non retired guy. Very sharp. He always took an interest
in what we were doing and gave us useful tutoring. He maintains a web site
on robotics as part of his personal Web site. It has lots of good
information. Then one day I was clicking around on his site and came across
the heading " things that interest me." He is a smart, interesting guy, I
clicked on it. There were links to engineering sites, science-fiction
fantasy sites among othres, and there it was.

A link to a white supremacists site.

I was in shock.

I wanted to scream.

Never once did the subject ever come up. I would have *never* guessed he had
to such interests. I never felt he had a hidden agenda or that he was
promoting such ideas. It was just a link. A link outside of the robotics
area.

My question is: What would you do in this situation?

I'm not asking a political or racial question here, I'm asking an
educational one.

What is the "AlwaysLearning" situation here? What would you tell your 10
year-old son? What kind of future interaction which you have with this
person? Does it affect your relationship to the club? ? ?

-Dan Vilter

Fetteroll

on 4/29/02 9:12 AM, Dan Vilter at dvilter@... wrote:

> My question is: What would you do in this situation?

I'd ignore it. Unless it becomes an issue.

(I assume it was clear that he was deliberately linking to it? It wasn't
just a typo?)

Maybe it seems like being friendly with him is the same as supporting his
beliefs?

Are people supporting or validating Unitarian Universalist beliefs by being
friendly with me? Unschooling? Star Trek?

Perhaps it feels satisfying to cut off someone who holds racist beliefs. But
does that stop racism? I don't even think it nicks it. He won't change his
beliefs because someone shuns him. It's possible that you could influence
him by being friendly. (Though I wouldn't be friendly just because of that.)

Someone said that intolerance of intolerance is also intolerance. Sometimes
I get a glimmer of sense out of that. (Sometimes I don't. ;-) There's a
difference between acknowledging someone's right to hold the beliefs they do
and accepting those beliefs as valid. Everyone has a reason for the choices
they've made in life. We can't know what in his life led him to the
conclusions he has. What is it that he fears so much that he would hate
anyone so much?

I think it's the causes that lead people to become white supremacists where
the fight belongs, not in shunning the people who are products of it.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/02 7:24:48 AM, dvilter@... writes:

<<
What is the "AlwaysLearning" situation here? What would you tell your 10
year-old son? What kind of future interaction which you have with this
person? Does it affect your relationship to the club? ? ? >>

I wouldn't tell him.

If the man were black and had a link to a Black power site with instructions
for bomb building (not his site, just a link), would you worry?

If it were a woman and she had a link to some dangerous lesbian site selling
K.D. Lang and Indigo Girls CDs would you think she was no longer suited to
discuss robotics?

But your teacher would probably be the first to tell you a lesbian or a Black
man wouldn't no diddly about robotics anyway, so it's all hypothetical!!!!


[ducking and covering, and then remembering how far away I am from the rest
of you! <g>]

<< I particularly like the brain power in the room. Most of
the members are retired aerospace and defense engineers. >>

My uncle is in the VA hospital. He was up and about from Tuesday to Saturday
morning, and I visited him several times. He was sharing a room with an
elderly, blind Black man named John Amos who introduced himself to me as
"Amos and Andy," and asked me if I knew about Amos and Andy.

Those guys were in the military when it was pretty thoroughly segregated.
Their lives were not our lives.

Your teacher-guy isn't one of the oldest of them there, right? But "retired"
in the military can mean 38 years old. The military isn't the cutting edge
of social change--neither is the engineering establishment.

One of my brightest friends has links on his site, and some bug the heck out
of me. It doesn't make him *him* that "Goth Chick of the Month" is right
there with the Pittsburgh Steelers and the SCA.

Do you reject freely-offered knowledge because of unrelated political belief?
Is that as prejudiced as rejecting medical assistance because of the
doctor's accent or skin color? People can't help their origins, but they
can help their chosen politics, MAYBE.

Interesting situation, Dan. While I would put out extra sensors for comment
or action which could be disturbing, I wouldn't volunteer this information to
Matthew. Someday, when he's learned all he wanted to, maybe. Later.

But then here's me: I really like and care about music. I think Michael
Jackson is a really, really good songwriter and singer. I like to watch him
dance. I have never since the 1960's wavered from holding that he was
super-talented, and when various musical fads came and went and my friends
said this or that is "stupid," and disco is dead, and punk sucks, and
whatever all else, I continued to decide what I liked by what I liked.

So some people say "He's a pedophile, and so therefor his music sucks," I
think that just proves they care more about fan-magazine crap than they do
about music itself. When I listen to him sing, I'm not fantasizing about
sexual relations. I'm listening to music.

If there were another robotics group and the teacher had a link to a Rainbow
Coalition site, and you went to that other group even though Matthew wasn't
learning as much, THAT would be a political decision.

If you had to pay substantial fees to the white supremecy group to learn
robotics, that's a different deal.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 4/29/02 10:48 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> The military isn't the cutting edge
> of social change--neither is the engineering establishment.

Hmmph!

I think the rest of society just has a limited view of the range of what
could constitute a society!

Joyce

zenmomma *

>>Are the core posters from this list now posting at Unschoolingdotcom?>>

I don't know if I'm a core poster or not, but I've been set to "no mail" on
this list for over a month. I was on vacation and am now just getting back
to it. It's good to be back!

I *am* posting at unschoolingdotcom too, though. And it has definitely been
getting more of my attention than other places to post for awhile. It just
felt so needy over there and I hated the idea that people at the message
boards were being directed to a dysfunctional, hostile list.

>>What is your (collective) opinion on the environment at
>>Unschoolingdotcom?>>

Right now I think there are some interesting conversations going on. There
are lots of newbies and the atmosphere is helpful. Joyce is moderating and
doing a fantastic job! The snarky emails are becoming fewer and fewer as
everyone learns to let them slide and not comment. Every now and then one
particular poster who shall remain nameless tries to stir things up, but I
guess she's getting ignored or moderated. People seem beter able to debate
and understand the difference betwen personal attacks and pointed
discussion. For now. We'll see how it goes. I was ready to bail on the list
a month ago before the tone seemed to shift. I'm not ready to say the tone
will never shift to the dark side again. ;-)

>>If it is becoming a better place to be than it was, and writings there
>>have a greater exposure to more people, what do you think is going to
>>become of AlwaysLearning?>>

Personally, I feel freer here than at the other list. I ask more questions
here and answer more questions there. You all feel more like friends and I
have definitely NOT gotten to that place over there yet.
I'd like this list to continue as it has been. A wonderful inviting place
for people who (for the most part) are already unschooling. A place to
bounce around ideas and conversations and to go into it all a little more in
depth. Obviously, though, that's totally MY feel for this list. Others may
have different ideas about what this list is for and about.

>>I don't mean to be pushy, but it's getting lonely over here at
AlwaysLearning.>>

I missed you too Dan. :o)

Life is good.
~Mary

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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In a message dated 4/29/02 10:15:46 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< > The military isn't the cutting edge
> of social change--neither is the engineering establishment.

Hmmph!

I think the rest of society just has a limited view of the range of what
could constitute a society! >>

Okay. I will make exception for "social engineers." <g>

Sandra

Nancy Wooton

on 4/29/02 6:12 AM, Dan Vilter at dvilter@... wrote:

> Never once did the subject ever come up. I would have *never* guessed he had
> to such interests. I never felt he had a hidden agenda or that he was
> promoting such ideas. It was just a link. A link outside of the robotics
> area.
>
> My question is: What would you do in this situation?

I wouldn't jump to conclusions about his interest is in that site. My dh
kept the link to the God Hates Fags site, not because he agrees with it, but
because he doesn't, and finds it a useful peek at how some other people
think. I have the HSLDA and Chalcedon Foundation sites bookmarked for the
same reason: easy access to first-source material in formulating the
opposing viewpoint.

In the words of Fats Waller, "One never knows, do one?" ;-)

Nancy

zenmomma *

>>Then one day I was clicking around on his site and came across
the heading " things that interest me." He is a smart, interesting guy, I
clicked on it.There were links to engineering sites, science-fiction fantasy
sites among othres, and there it was.

A link to a white supremacists site.>>

Could it be that it "interested him" because those guys are real whackos? (I
say that hopefully, but not really in a believing sort of way. :-/)

>>My question is: What would you do in this situation?>>

As long as I was ALWAYS there with my son, and sure that there was no
opportunity for this guy to influence my kid in this area, I think I'd keep
going. For the robotics, science and such. If the guy branched off at all,
I'd stop the conversation and explain to everyone why.

Although I must admit, the thought of being in the same room with the guy
would probably start bothering me immensely.

We had something similar, but not really, come up with Casey's Brownie
meetings. I was a leader and it turns out the other leader's dh was a WWII
buff. Big time. Obsessively. We had a meeting in her house and there they
were. Huge, authentic Nazi flags hanging up there with all the other WWII
memoribilia.

It bothered the other parents to have Nazi flags hanging there, seemingly to
be admired. We never had another meeting there and told the Mom why.
Hmmm....come to think of it, if the Dad had been a white supremacist, I
probably wouldn't have anything to do with them. But he wasn't. He was just
an idiot with nothing too valuable to offer my kids. It was easy to stay
away.

Again, more questions than answers today. :-/

Life is good.
~Mary

_________________________________________________________________
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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/02 9:14:24 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< It's possible that you could influence
him by being friendly. (Though I wouldn't be friendly just because of that.)
>>

But Dan's a white guy. That might just enforce the teacher's belief that
white guys are good guys.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 4/29/02 1:47 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> But Dan's a white guy. That might just enforce the teacher's belief that
> white guys are good guys.

But a nonwhite guy who disagrees with the white supremacists isn't as
notable as a white guy who disagrees.

Joyce

[email protected]

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 06:12:54 -0700 Dan Vilter <dvilter@...> writes:
> A link to a white supremacists site.
<...>
> My question is: What would you do in this situation?

I'd tell my kid, and we'd talk about it. I guess it feels like there are
really two questions, whether I would want to be involved with someone
like this, and whether my kid would, and I wouldn't assume that the
answer would be the same.

If my kid did decide she wanted to be involved, I'd rather she be aware
of this guy's beliefs. I don't see any difference between this and a link
to a NAMBLA site - both are offensive to me, both are morally wrong in my
mind. Since my kid is a white girl, neither would affect her directly.
Still, I'd want her to be aware of the ideas this guy might start
spouting, I'd want her to be prepared. I wouldn't prevent her from going.
I don't prevent her from seeing her father, who has, or had, ties to the
AB... and I've heard her call him on racist talk, she's strong enough in
her beliefs that his don't influence her... maybe hers will influence
him.

Are all the people in the class white? I'm assuming you and your son
are...?

If one or both of us decided to stay with the class, one thing I'd do is
talk to the guy directly, privately, and just tell him what I found and
what my concerns were - not in a confrontational way, but just to let him
know where I stood. Assuming he's an otherwise decent guy with a few
loose connections in this area, it might at least prevent awkward
situations in future, so he won't assume you share his beliefs at all.
At best, maybe it will set him on a path of reexamining his own beliefs.
Maybe he's still open to learning...

I'm sure there are people in my life who hold beliefs that I find
offensive, and I know nothing about it.

Dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/02 11:36:17 AM, zenmomma@... writes:

<<
Could it be that it "interested him" because those guys are real whackos? (I
say that hopefully, but not really in a believing sort of way. :-/) >>

A friend of mine followed the Flat Earth Society for years because it
fascinated her like a trainwreck, not because she agreed with them.

I used to work for a friend who prints books and cats reproduction medieval
jewelry. He had three Thor's Hammers in the catalog. I was doing mail
order, and one day we got a really friendly letter from The Aryan Nation.
They were thrilled that we had such great Norse stuff of such high quality
for so little money, and they ordered several. And they had enclosed, in
case we were interested, flyers for their latest project, and application
forms.

From their point of view, we produced something which was a trigger for them.
It would be like someone assuming you'd care about wiccan ceremonies because
you were selling window stickers with fairies and pentagrams on them, or some
such. So we made copies of these forms for everyone in the shop.

The shop consisted of all longtime friends. Two women, three men. We were
all (in local parlance) Anglo. That means (in New Mexico) we weren't
Hispanic or Indian, and we were native English speakers. The term "white"
isn't used in any polite company in New Mexico. Our last names were:
Moseley, Stinebaugh, McHarney, Adams, and Lesnik. All of us had some
blue-eyed ancestors, but it looked like from this form that we could fail to
qualify if we had BROWN eyed grandparents. Bummer. We all were off the list.

BUT they were collecting memberships in the form of money to buy an island
somewhere in the Pacific so their members could live in a physically
all-white land.

Yeah! Good thing the Thor's hammers were all under $12 because I don't think
they were going to actually make enough money.

AND they had sent a little newsletter, with an article on "Norse Martial
Arts." No kidding, they had done up some sort of karate-style weapons kata
with an axe or something, and they would practice it together to build strong
minds and bodies. Uh huh!!!

They were goofy. They were nuts. We had a BLAST with their stuff, poking
fun and teasing each other, and wondering how bad it would be if our friends
came in and found us all with this "literature." And I wrote back on behalf
of the shop and said we weren't really interested in their politics, but I
was glad they liked the Thor's Hammers.

Sandra

Peggy

Sandra Dodd wrote:

> So some people say "He's a pedophile, and so therefor his music sucks," I
> think that just proves they care more about fan-magazine crap than they do
> about music itself. When I listen to him sing, I'm not fantasizing about
> sexual relations. I'm listening to music.


So what about Woody Allen? I just can't stomach his films now. I
like Michael Jackson's work and I guess I would feel a bit
differently about it if he depicted his sexual fantasies in his
videos. I feel sorry for Michael Jackson, maybe it was watching him
grow up?

Peggy

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/02 2:33:26 PM, freeform@... writes:

<< If one or both of us decided to stay with the class, one thing I'd do is
talk to the guy directly, privately, and just tell him what I found and
what my concerns were - not in a confrontational way, but just to let him
know where I stood. Assuming he's an otherwise decent guy with a few
loose connections in this area, it might at least prevent awkward
situations in future >>

One way for him to prevent awkward situations in the future would be to
remove that link. So here's a guy who has a link. Maybe because he agrees,
maybe because he thinks it's weird and interesting. If Dan mentions it, he
might remove the link. Tadaaa!!!!!

THEN you'll have to wonder about everyone whose website does NOT have a link.
Did they have one and just remove it to avoid offending students?

Hmmm?????

If he were teaching a class on WWII or the history of slavery, I'd be really
concerned. But he's teaching robotics.

Sandra

Karen

Dan, I would talk to the guy and see why he's got the link. If no one ever
says anything, he may think everyone's OK with it. And no one learns
anything if you keep your mouth shut.

For months now, I've been avoiding a handy little convenience store down the
road because the building next to it has a Confederate flag hanging
prominently on the front. I've been assuming it belongs to the owner of the
store, but I should stop by and ask, and then I can boycott to my heart's
content. I've come to realize that my silence helps no one.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peggy

Sandra Dodd wrote:

>
> In a message dated 4/29/02 1:32:16 PM, peggy@... writes:
>
> << So what about Woody Allen? I just can't stomach his films now. >>
>
> Have you read much about and of Mia Farrow? That wasn't a very healthy
> relationship.

I have to admit she sounds like she has a bit of a Mother Teresa
complex or something and I wonder if her children got/get what they
need, but, she didn't take pornographic photos of them and screw
them while they were under age.

>
> Some people get kind of crazed about adopting children, and more and more of
> them. We know someone personally with an odd urge to adopt. (Oh! Two
> families, now that I think of it.) To the obvious and direct detriment of
> their already-there children, they add more.

Pet peeve of mine too.

>
> But that was the story of two famous people and their personal unravellings
> and situations.

If it wasn't *also* about Woody's interactions with her children, I
would agree with you.

>
> The movies are not based on that, nor about that.

I don't really agree with this. Woody Allen's films have always been
about his inner landscape and sexual musings. It was what gave him
credibility. I guess I'm forgetting Mariel Hemmingway. Guess I
should have known? How about his teaching the 3 year old to suck on
his thumb?

>
> I have a friend who loved Harrison Ford and loved all the movies. I like
> most of those movies. I've enjoyed watching Harrison Ford act since American
> Graffiti.
>
> So he left his wife. That's none of my business. It's sad, but they'll
> recover.
>
> But my friend refuses to go and see another movie of his or read an article
> because he left his wife. She doesn't know either of them, and never will.
>
> I understand some of Elvis's fans didn't react well when he got married.
>
> That is a little bit TOO much vicarious living and fantasy life. Either like
> his music or not. Have a crush on his 20 year old form or not. But get a
> grip on where you are and what is what!!
>
> So unless Dan and Matthew have a crush on the robotics teacher (WHICH I
> SERIOUSLY DOUBT) and unless they plan to make an icon of him which they will
> turn to in times of trouble and doubt, wanting to grow up to be just like him
> in every way, I don't see a problem with them continuing to learn robotics
> from him.

LOL. Me either.

>
> If the robotics-club market were broad and varied, yeah--make it one of
> several factors, along with how comfortable are the chairs? What time is the
> meeting? How's the parking?
>
> I've seen people leave a church because they didn't like the way the pastor's
> wife treated her kids. Never mind Jesus, they want to control and approve
> all aspects of the lives of those they feel are controlling and approving them
> . At least in a church it's two ways. I'm pretty sure Harrison Ford didn't
> give my friend a single thought when he and his wife were disagreeing.

Harrison Ford left his wife? ;)

Peggy

[email protected]

Dan,

Be careful what you wish for. I had 70 messages since I read this post this
morning!

Kelly

In a message dated 4/28/2002 3:21:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dvilter@... writes:
> So I can't help but notice how spare the conversation has become here. I've
> talked with Jocelyn and Pam who tell me that discussions have increased on
> the Unschoolingdotcom list. I do miss the conversation here on
> AlwaysLearning but I'm not interested in spending my time wading through
> the
> contention and personal attacks that were so common on the
> Unschoolingdotcom
> list last year when I quit it, at the time Sandra started this list.
> Jocelyn tells me that the Unschoolingdotcom list is not nearly so bad as it
> was last year, but is still far from the friendly atmosphere of this list.
>
> The time I can spend on e-mail lists is limited and fluctuates wildly in
> relation to my work schedule. I hope what I have to say is of benefit to
> the unschooling community. But more importantly what everyone, and
> especially the core posting people on this list have to say benefits me.
> These postings have fallen to a minimum. I can only assume that people's
> energies are being spent at Unschoolingdotcom or elsewhere. Good and/or
> friendly doesn't much matter if there is little conversation.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 16:42:48 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
> One way for him to prevent awkward situations in the future would be
to
> remove that link

Well, no, it wouldn't. I was thinking of potential awkward situations
that might come about because he would assume that others shared his
beliefs - nothing to do with the link. It's often been my experience that
if I don't make it clear that I don't share someone's beliefs, they
assume that I do.

This is how I keep getting invited to go to church activities with
people, I think. Or end up at events that I thought were neutral but end
up being affiliated with something I don't want to affiliate with.

Dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/30/02 12:37:19 AM, freeform@... writes:

<< > One way for him to prevent awkward situations in the future would be
to
> remove that link

Well, no, it wouldn't. >>

This whole discussions is predicated on the existence of the link. This is
an awkward situation for Dan. If the link were gone today, no such future
situation just like this one would come about.

Sandra

Sharon Rudd

>
> But a nonwhite guy who disagrees with the white
> supremacists isn't as
> notable as a white guy who disagrees.

Should be.
Perhaps it sort of a cumalive effect.
Sharon of the Swamp

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[email protected]

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 09:43:19 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
> In a message dated 4/30/02 12:37:19 AM, freeform@... writes:
>
> << > One way for him to prevent awkward situations in the future would
be to
> > remove that link
>
> Well, no, it wouldn't. >>
>
> This whole discussions is predicated on the existence of the link.
This is
> an awkward situation for Dan. If the link were gone today, no such
future
> situation just like this one would come about.

But potential future awkward situations, like the ones I was referring to
in both posts, certainly could. Removing the link wouldn't resolve what I
see as the real issue - doing an activity with someone whose beliefs
offend you. It doesn't matter whether you find out through a link, or
through some other method. What I think is important is making it clear
to others what my beliefs are, so no assumptions to the opposite are
made. Maybe in this case they won't be, I don't know, but I think it's at
least a possibility. I'm assuming that since Dan is making sure he's with
his son whenever his son talks to this guy, that Dan also thinks that the
guy might bring up these beliefs.

And I see a difference between chosing not to associate with someone
because he's Asian and chosing not to associate with someone because he
believes that non-white people are inferior to white people and should be
forced to leave this country, or little boys should have sexual
experience with adult men before they're 8, or children should be hit
with belts. By my value system, these are evil beliefs that people are on
some level chosing to hold, and by ignoring them and continuing to be
friendly with people who hold them, I condone them. This is why we
boycott Ne$tle - not because there's anything wrong with their food, but
because we don't agree with their beliefs around the marketing of
artificial baby milks.

Everyone has to draw their own line. There are things I think are wrong,
but not so wrong that I would not associate with someone I knew favored
it - I would quickly run out of friends it I were this judgemental. OTOH,
I'm not a governement agency, I'm allowed to judge people based on their
beliefs... it's one of the best ways to judge poeple, I think. How else
do you decide who you want to spend time with?

Dar

[email protected]

<< What I think is important is making it clear
to others what my beliefs are, so no assumptions to the opposite are
made. >>

Oh. Got it.

But for instance, in this forum...
If you have one particular hobby or vice or secret, should it matter one way
or the other if it doesn't affect your ideas and anecdotes and suggestions?

If we're talking about unschooling do we really need to declare which of us
have had abortions or assisted in abortions or haven't had abortions but
would if we felt the need, or those who have refused abortions even though
they had to put a baby up for adoption? (I'm purposely using a big emotional
example, and one which sometimes HAS affected otherwise friendly
homeschooling exchanges.)

I'm not making assumptions about people's feelings about reproduction here.
I was surprised the other day when I showed a photo of Lori Odhner's family
to a local (childless) friend. Or rather she saw the photo of the whole
family in matching pants (a Christmas tradition with them is Lori sews
clothes out of the same material for everyone in the family--they've done it
since the kids were babies, and the dad would get a garment too--and last
year it was pants of a brown print), and the photo of the new twins. My
friend said something really mean about people who have more children than
anyone should. (The Odhners have nine, with the new twins.)

I'm not assuming about infant care or circumcision or family bed--it doesn't
matter. Some people came to unschooling from that angle, and some went
through ten years of traditional school before popping out of the system.

If one of you was once involved in the bombing of a bridge, or belonged to a
church that shunned a member out to the point that she killed herself, or
once got in a bar fight over a karaoke-related insult, it doesn't matter to
me. If you hope to do it again, is that worse?

Should it matter more if you have a link to that stuff on a website?

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/30/02 11:33:50 AM, freeform@... writes:

<< I'm not a governement agency, I'm allowed to judge people based on their
beliefs... it's one of the best ways to judge poeple, I think. How else
do you decide who you want to spend time with? >>

Whether they let their kids drink soda.
Whether they let their kids watch South Park or the Simpsons.
Whether they can laugh at goofy stuff without feeling too undignified.
Whether they show up on time or are somewhere between an hour and three days
late.
Whether they're nice to their dog.

I guess those are beliefs, huh?

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/1/2002 11:39:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:


> I admit I haven't been following this
> conversation too closely, so I don't remember
> the age of the child, the length of contact,
> if the child is alone with the man or if the
> parent is present at all times, etc. All
> those are factors. Also, does the man know
> how you feel, that you know his personal
> beliefs and that while you respect him as an
> expert on Robots you do not share his beliefs
> and that you wish for him to make an effort
> to not share those beliefs with the child?

Hey Joylyn - not to detract from your post and all it says - because it was
significant and useful to read and I really appreciate it (I ALSO have had
those supermarket comments about my kids - people ask me whether they had the
same father or whether one was adopted - rude and hurtful especially to the
child who looks so different from her sisters and from me - I tell them she
looks like her dad on the outside and JUST like me, her mommy, on the
inside), but I'd be really interested to know what you thought about the
actual situation about which Dan was asking.

This is a once-a-month get-together where Matthew is the ONLY kid and the
group is largely composed of lots of retired guys who are interested in
robotics. There is a presentation and some discussion. The guy Dan is
concerned with is not a "teacher." Matthew is not being directly instructed
by him, but may be part of or listening to conversations that involve him.
The guy has never given any indication of racism at the monthly meetings. Dan
went looking at the guy's personal website and discovered a link that went to
a white supremist site.

So - should they quit going to the Robotics Association meetings? If so,
should they just leave quietly or should they say they're leaving because of
the link on this guy's website? Or should they keep going? Should he talk to
Matthew about what he discovered about this guy?

By the way, Dan, after thinking this over for a few days, I think you ought
to tell Matthew about it - I think he's perfectly capable of starting to
grasp that evil can come in the form of a very congenial and seemingly
intelligent person. I think the idea is not too horrible or ugly to introduce
to him at his age - it is reality and as much as we'd sure like to keep our
kids from ever experiencing the negative aspects of the world, I don't think
we do them any favors not to clue them in, slowly and in exactly these kinds
of ways where it comes up even in their very-sheltered lives. After all, when
people accuse us of sheltering our kids, we always reply that they are NOT
sheltered, they are out experiencing the real-world.

I'd just do it in a natural way - while looking at his website you might have
said, "Whoa - I can't believe this." "What, dad?" "YUCK - Mr. X - you know
that guy at robotics - he has a link to a white supremist site on his
personal webpage." "What is a white supremist?" "People who think white
people are superior to other races." And so on - just keeping the whole
conversation on the level that Matthew determines.

Sort of the simple answer equivalent to the same approach to answering sex
questions.

It will make Matthew uncomfortable with that guy at Robotics. AS WELL IT
SHOULD!!! He'll be learning a lot more than robotics there, but he can still
learn that too.

Even if you don't take this opportunity to talk about this kind of stuff,
you'll have other opportunities, unfortunately. Protecting innocence can
become protecting ignorance - that seems like one big aspect of what you were
asking about - when does protecting our children's innocence go so far as to
be keeping them ignorant.

--pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dan Vilter

on 5/2/02 1:05 AM, PSoroosh@... at PSoroosh@... wrote:

> By the way, Dan, after thinking this over for a few days, I think you ought
> to tell Matthew about it - I think he's perfectly capable of starting to
> grasp that evil can come in the form of a very congenial and seemingly
> intelligent person. I think the idea is not too horrible or ugly to introduce
> to him at his age - it is reality and as much as we'd sure like to keep our
> kids from ever experiencing the negative aspects of the world, I don't think
> we do them any favors not to clue them in, slowly and in exactly these kinds
> of ways where it comes up even in their very-sheltered lives. After all, when
> people accuse us of sheltering our kids, we always reply that they are NOT
> sheltered, they are out experiencing the real-world.

This is central to my struggle. Keep in mind that I have been stewing about
this for two years. Matthew and I were pretty close to of this guy in our
interest of robotics. Nothing else. In no other way did we interact. My
discovery had shook me up pretty badly. I had a very difficult time, at 42,
trying to figure out what to do. I couldn't imagine my 10 year-old being
any less shocked. That protection instinct kicked in. So, now at 12 years
old he's 20 percent older and probably better equipped to deal with the
concept. What I don't want to happen is to have robotics and white
supremacy linked together in Matthew's mind, like it now is in mine. Would
you feel the same way if this person was Rosie's riding instructor? Or one
of the ceramic artists that Roya is studying under? Matthew and I have had
discussions about bigotry and racism and white supremacy. I think he
understands the repugnant concept.

The closeness of it is what bothers me. And maybe that's why I should do
what you suggest. I have understood the concept for many years. But when
it hits close to home it's exponentially more painful. A while back Joylyn
talked about her children, children I've enjoyed company of at many a park
day, being refused service by some *sshole at Denny's while traveling. I had
read the news stories and the court case about this very subject and may
have even discussed it with Matthew. But now the ugly concept hits my home
(or at least my park day group) and I begin to lose rational thought about
her kids, Denny's, and being hungry while on the road. My reaction is to
protect my son from this kind of confusion and pain.

Maybe it's only *my* problem?

I'll bet Joylyn feels differently.

-Dan Vilter

Sharon Rudd

rude and
> hurtful especially to the
> child who looks so different from her sisters and
> from me -

My XDH is half Lebanese. My older three DS resemble
his family more than me. When XSIL would go places
with the boys and me (she lived with us off and on)
some people assumed she was their mother due to the
resemblance in coloring. Black hair (well, she had red
hair), lovely light golden-brown skin, beautiful thick
black winged eyebrows, dark eyes, long lashes,
beautiful straight white teeth. Other times I was
asked if I had adopted.

Huck (DS2) asked whats a "Raghead" one day.......and
what's a "Sand-Nigger"? is it different from a regular
one? Good Grief!!!!! A regular one!?

Sharon of the Swamp

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

Kate Green

I first heard this awful term when I was talking to some people at our UU
church in Tennessee. I was saying where we were going to move to when that
sand-term came out. I was actually stumped as I had never heard it before
and it took me a moment. But to hear it in a UU church -- blah!

You know here and also in Africa, it isn't racism but tribalism that's a
problem. Wonder why "isms" are such a part of human nature.

Kate



Huck (DS2) asked whats a "Raghead" one day.......and
what's a "Sand-Nigger"? is it different from a regular
one? Good Grief!!!!! A regular one!?

Sharon of the Swamp