Dawn Falbe

Actually Kelly I don't see this as an unschooling issue but an issue with
marriage, which is obviously what it is. For a husband (in this case) to
lay down the law about what he wants and yet he's not the one that's doing
what he wants, he wants someone else to do what he wants (LOL) namely his
wife is not healthy.

I'm not lucky to have married a man where we have a lot in common, it was
planned that I would be married to someone who had the same belief systems
as me. That's not luck, that's good dating, interviewing them and then
making a decision about whether he was marriage material, which is what he
did with me.

I doubt whether unschooling is the only problem in a household where a
husband has an attitude of proof.

I notice the defensiveness and the continual helpful other e-mails about how
to give him what he wants.... My question is why? Why does a wife have to
passify her husband's fears? The only response I can see that makes any
sense is Sandra's in having him go with them to some unschooling events.
Also acting like grown women with power instead of giving it away.

Also what does this show our children, both boys and girls. They learn the
majority of life skills from us and if a wife is running around like a
chicken with her head cut off to try and give her husband what he wants it
sets up unhealthy relationships and expectations for the kids. Boys can
assume they will be with someone who will constantly try to please them and
girls learn it's their job to please men.... Don't believe me? Read some
psychological books.

Again this is an area that I have studied extensively around women and
marriage and what works and what doesn't in the long run.

Dawn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
>
>I notice the defensiveness and the continual helpful other e-mails about how
>to give him what he wants.... My question is why? Why does a wife have to
>passify her husband's fears?

Because they're also his kids, and he loves them. He feels responsible for
them. So when there are differences, you talk about it, negotiate,
compromise.
We had our son in the hospital because dh's first child had some real
difficulties at birth. He would have been extremely stressed out by a home
birth. If I hadn't been able to find a doctor and hospital situation that
was comfortable for me, I would have had to put my comfort level over
his. (I had a great doc. My list of wants and don't wants was his
standard procedure.)
We compromised on vaccinations and did some. We started unschooling on
more or less a trial basis. (He had a good school experience.) Now he's a
big supporter.

>Also acting like grown women with power instead of giving it away.

I don't agree that negotiating and compromising are giving power away.


>Also what does this show our children, both boys and girls. They learn the
>majority of life skills from us and if a wife is running around like a
>chicken with her head cut off to try and give her husband what he wants it
>sets up unhealthy relationships and expectations for the kids.

I didn't see that. I saw examples of women working at their marriage and
its issues, one of which is education of the kids.

>Boys can
>assume they will be with someone who will constantly try to please them and
>girls learn it's their job to please men.... Don't believe me? Read some
>psychological books.

I could find psychological books that took any of a number of views on this
issue.


>Again this is an area that I have studied extensively around women and
>marriage and what works and what doesn't in the long run.

I hope you're not implying that anyone who disagrees with you hasn't
studied these things themselves.
I married a man I love and respect who is *very* different from me. It
hasn't always been easy, listening to each other's point of view and
compromising on issues that were important to me. But guess what? Our
marriage just keeps getting stronger and happier. Our son has two very
different role models to pick and choose from. He's grown up watching two
people work things out between them. Working things out with dh has really
helped me work things out with my son, who is also *very* different from me.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Kate Green

>
> I'm not lucky to have married a man where we have a lot in common, it was
> planned that I would be married to someone who had the same belief systems
> That's not luck, that's good dating, interviewing them and then
> making a decision about whether he was marriage material, which is what he
> did with me.

I might have been able to do that had I been older but at 21 I'm afraid my
"interviewing" was done thru my hormones:) Then I just decided to mold him
into something I could live with!

I find it fascinating living in the Middle East where all marriages are
arranged by family that so many are very happy. A lot of it has to do with
expectations. If you don't expect your marriage to be all roses then the
good times are all uphill.
In the Friday newspaper (which is like Sunday in the West) there are
hundreds of ads for the Indian and Pakistani families looking for "boys" or
"girls" to marry their children. They specify all kinds of funny things
such as "must be homely!"
This has nothing to do with the subject so I'll quit now:)

Kate

Kelly Green

>and if a wife is running around like a
>chicken with her head cut off to try and give her husband what he wants it
>sets up unhealthy relationships and expectations for the kids. Boys can
>assume they will be with someone who will constantly try to please them and
>girls learn it's their job to please men.... Don't believe me? Read some
>psychological books.

I'm sure there are people like this. But I don't think you could
possibly tell from Suzanna's post that she is one of them. That's
really all I'm trying to say.

Kelly

Fetteroll

on 4/17/02 11:32 PM, Tia Leschke at leschke@... wrote:

> He's grown up watching two
> people work things out between them.

I can testify that the opposite is not so helpful! My husband and I are very
alike and also very easy going so things get decided so easily. Whenever we
disagree on something my daughter thinks we're fighting. And I don't mean a
yelling, match just disagree. The angriest anyone ever gets around here is
grumpy ;-) The model she's getting of marriage is that everything works out
just because you're married. :-/

Joyce

[email protected]

>Also acting like grown women with power instead of giving it away.

I don't agree that negotiating and compromising are giving power away.


A vwry wise local unschooler once pointed out to me that words make a big
difference in how we are perceived and how others perceive us. When one says
My husband won't let me.....
My husband says I have to show him.....
It creates an atmosphere of unbalanced power. It's very different than:
My husband isn't sure how this works and I would like to reassure him.
negotiating is vital to a healthy relationship, as is trust and faith. Joey
didn't understand unschooling at first, not many do. I said to him, Do you
believe that I love our children and would Never do anything to harm them or
make their lives more difficult? He answered Yes (ding ding ding!! you win
the $64,000!!) I told him that I would answer any questions he had, offer
him things that I've read, quotes from people, etc. but he must trust me
first and then he will begin to understand. That it takes time.
I'm not really sure that Dawn's statement is simply about unschooling. It
reminds me of going out with friends without Joe. Sometimes people would
say, Joe will *let* you go out? (What am I? His slave?)(he just looked over
my shoulder and said, "Yes, you are" - In his dreams!!)
I still call him and make sure he doesn't have plans or something but I make
my own decisions just as he does. It's the way we phrase things in our
society that harken back to the days before women's liberation.
My husband won't let me.
Mr. Policeman says.... (from a toy)
Look at all the fireMEN!
I sence alot of the same when we talk about our DHs, that we have to prove
our intentions to the man of the house. I don't think we mean to come across
this way, but it makes it more difficult for women to be seen as powerful
and knowledgeable when we talk in this way.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

Sharon Rudd

> I find it fascinating living in the Middle East
> where all marriages are
> arranged by family that so many are very happy. A
> lot of it has to do with
> expectations. If you don't expect your marriage to
> be all roses then the
> good times are all uphill.
> In the Friday newspaper (which is like Sunday in the
> West) there are
> hundreds of ads for the Indian and Pakistani
> families looking for "boys" or
> "girls" to marry their children. They specify all
> kinds of funny things
> such as "must be homely!"
> This has nothing to do with the subject so I'll quit
> now:)
>
> Kate

Does low-libido supposedly go with homely? Are they
looking for "no competition"? Are homely and
unattractive the same? Is a homely person expected to
be more tractable than an un-homely one? Male or
female homely? Are the parents looking for someone who
isn't really homely, but is percieved as homely? What
is homely, anyway?

My XDH was extremely handsome. With many talents and
skills he had a, hmmm, more than active social life.
My little sister(then 14), of whom I had custody, said
to me one day "I'll never marry a handsome man." She
had the impression that good looks go with lots of
independent social activity. She saw that this hurt me
(thought I concealed it)and decided to avoid a similar
situation by finding a homely man. Well....she found
LOTS of boy-friends of EVERY description and her
husband of over 20 years is a nice enough looking,
good hearted, good parent, good everything, OK man.

BUT I did allow the situation to exist, for a while,
that made the wrong impression on her.....and I do
regret that. But it wore off :-) What she didn't see,
was that I couldn't participate in the fun stuff with
my peers (well, anything) because I was too busy with
HER. (She was a drinking, sexually active mess!!!) Oh
well. Dunno for sure if she realizes her role in that
yet.

Just some comments on Homely and Fun and Roles and
Activeties and Imperssionable youngsters.

Sharon of the Swamp

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

moonmeghan

<<<<> > In the Friday newspaper (which is like Sunday in the
> > West) there are
> > hundreds of ads for the Indian and Pakistani
> > families looking for "boys" or
> > "girls" to marry their children. They specify all
> > kinds of funny things
> > such as "must be homely!"
> > This has nothing to do with the subject so I'll quit
> > now:)
> >
> > Kate>>>>
>
<<<<> Does low-libido supposedly go with homely? Are they
> looking for "no competition"? Are homely and
> unattractive the same? Is a homely person expected to
> be more tractable than an un-homely one? Male or
> female homely? Are the parents looking for someone who
> isn't really homely, but is percieved as homely? What
> is homely, anyway?

> Sharon of the Swamp>>>>


In most European countries, that I know of, 'homely' equates with
'homebody', not unattractive looking. I have no idea if this is also
true of Middle Eastern countries, but it could be.

Meghan

Fetteroll

on 4/18/02 12:31 AM, Kate Green at karegree@... wrote:

> They specify all kinds of funny things
> such as "must be homely!"
> This has nothing to do with the subject so I'll quit now:)

Oh, but you cauld change the subject line and tell us more. This is very
interesting! :-)

Joyce

Sharon Rudd

> In most European countries, that I know of, 'homely'
> equates with
> 'homebody', not unattractive looking. I have no
> idea if this is also
> true of Middle Eastern countries, but it could be.
>
> Meghan

Oh, that makes sense.
....here homebody equates with wall-flower which
equates with homely which means unattractive and
therefore unwanted. OR conversly, homebody is
somebody who keeps the home fires burning.

Sharon of the Swamp

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Dawn Falbe

As usual what I said was twisted and turned.... From my reading of the first
e-mail (sorry don't know who wrote it, I respond to e-mails and don't
usually look at who wrote it) talked about proving and justifying to her
husband about how unschooling works. My response is that if my husband asks
me to prove or justify anything to him, I would laugh because I don't have
to prove or justify what I'm doing to him. I'm a grown up and don't need
his permission to do what I want to do....

Now if he were to ask me questions about unschooling (that's if he'd never
read anything or actually been involved) I have places I can point him to on
the internet, books he could read, lists he can join (he actually reads this
one, just doesn't post), people he can talk too..

Because my husband has chosen to quit a full time job and take a contracting
job so that he can spend more time with the kids, he's actually home quite a
bit. Last Friday he and the boys spent the day at a monster truck rally,
something all 3 of them love to do. On Monday we are all off to the Pima
County Fair as it's dollar day. Next week he's taking 3 hours off in the
middle of the day to meet me at the Ice Skating rink for Zak's first lesson.
He's one of the coaches on Zak's soccer team, goes to every match (sometimes
alone with both kids).. Although my husband is not 50% involved on a daily
basis we have organized our lives so that he's around a lot more than many
husbands.

I guess I don't need to prove or justify anything to him because he's
involved with the kids on a daily basis and can see what they are learning.
If he suggests something he wants to do with the kids and he's talking to me
about it my comment is usually "that sounds interesting" and he and they
take on a project and see if it works out.

Yesterday Zak and I made Buzz Lightyear wings for him and I couldn't quite
figure out how to keep them on, so when DH arrived home he found the perfect
solution and continued with the rest of the costume.

Just some thoughts.... Maybe we are just very compatible when it comes to
our belief systems about the kids and that doesn't seem to be such a bad
thing.

Dawn

********************
Dawn Falbe
Astrologer Coach
(520) 312-5300
********************
www.astrologerdawn.com
dawn@...
Enlightening you on how to discover and live your Soul Purpose
"The people who get on in this world are people who get up and look for the
circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them." - George
Bernard Shaw
"The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school" -
George Bernard Shaw




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>As usual what I said was twisted and turned.... From my reading of the first
>e-mail (sorry don't know who wrote it, I respond to e-mails and don't
>usually look at who wrote it) talked about proving and justifying to her
>husband about how unschooling works. My response is that if my husband asks
>me to prove or justify anything to him, I would laugh because I don't have
>to prove or justify what I'm doing to him. I'm a grown up and don't need
>his permission to do what I want to do....

I feel the same way about things I want to do just for myself. I don't
need his permission. I announce my plans and just ask if they're going to
conflict with anything important. But it seems to me that as long as both
parents are a part of a child's life, both parents should get input into
decisions made about those kids.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Kate Green

>
> Oh, but you cauld change the subject line and tell us more. This is very
> interesting! :-)
>
> Joyce
>

Well since you asked:) Here's the website for our local newspaper -- some
of the adds are online but here's a taste of the brides wanted. I love the
"spinster" thing if a woman is over the age of about 25!

http://www.gulfnews.com/Classifieds/Matrimonials/dubai.ASP

BTW this is a pretty good newspaper to get an idea of some of the things
that are actually reported on in the Middle East about political events.
You sure get a different side of things than US papers.

Kate


Proposals invited for a graduate RC Goan spinster, age 32, 5'2", from good
natured, sober, decent and professionally qualified, RC
Goan bachelors, 33 to 37
years of age. If interested, please send complete details
to:
silvadove2002@...

North Indian parents invite proposals for their daughter,
B.Com., age 25, 5'2",
staying with parents in U.A.E., from Gujarati / Punjabi,
vegetarian, teetotaller
boys. Engineers / MBAs / CAs preferred. Write to: The
Advertiser, Cfd. Ref.
No. 137, P.O.Box 6519, Dubai, U.A.E.


Pakistani Muslim girl, Graduate, very beautiful, 23/5'5",
divorcee. Only
qualified & decent boys, below 35, need respond. E-mail:
jupiter596@...
Parents invite proposals for their daughter, 20 / 5'3",
Punertham, B.Com.,
hailing from Trissur, from suitable Menon / Nair boys,
with family status. Please
contact 050-6346639.



Parents invite proposals from qualified Ezhava boys, with
clear family visa
status, for a qualified girl, 152 cm, born in 1975, star
- Chathayam, educated &
experienced in Dubai, hailing from Trichur. Those
interested may please contact
Email: zeesravi@... / Fax 04-3371847 /
050-6596255 (after office
hours).


Proposals invited for 2 Pakistani Punjabi Muslim girls
from a Syed family,
B.A., age 23, from Pakistani Syed Punjabi boys,
well-settled in U.A.E. / abroad.
Contact 050-7759570.
Proposals invited for a Keralite C.S.I. girl, 26/163,
employed in Dubai, from
parents of God fearing C.S.I. / Marthomite boys. Contact
Abraham on
050-6539734.
Proposals invited for a Mumbai settled, Nair girl, aged
26, Homeopathy
Doctor, Uttratadhi, 1 1/2 dosham, from professionally
qualified boys of the same
caste. Ph. 04-2543264.
Proposals invited for a Marthomite girl, MBA, 26/164,
well placed in Dubai,
financially sound, from well qualified & well placed
Marthomite / CSI / Orthodox
boys. Contact 04-3352160 / email: avmalayil@...


Proposals invited for a Menon, Graduate Girl, 33 years,
born & brought
up in Bombay, 5'4", Choti Star, well-placed in Dubai,
from educated &
well-placed Nair / Menon boys. Non-smokers & teetotallers
preferred.
Call 04-3096852 / 050-6586282.
Proposals invited for a Pentecost girl, age 28, 5'4",
working in a multinational
company based in Dubai, from parents of qualified,
Keralite, Pentecost boys. Ph.
050-5954623, after 1.30 pm.


Proposals invited for a fair & good-looking, Hindu,
Mangalorean girl, age 32,
on housemaid's visa, from well placed men, below 40 years
of age. Mr Dilip on
050-6284553, 5 pm to 10 pm.


Proposals invited for a male Computer Programmer, age 27;
& a female BDS
Doctor, age 29, both are from a Jain Swetamber
Maharashtrian Gujarati family.
Only Jains may contact 050-7690298.
Proposals invited for an Ezhava girl, 26/161 cms, from
Cochin, fair,
Chathayam (Lagnal Rahu eight house), B.Tech. (Civil),
computer literate,
employed at Cochin. Horoscope matching essential. Contact
050-7498546 or
e-mail: cksatyaraj@...

Fetteroll

on 4/20/02 11:22 AM, Kate Green at karegree@... wrote:

> Well since you asked:) Here's the website for our local newspaper -- some
> of the adds are online but here's a taste of the brides wanted. I love the
> "spinster" thing if a woman is over the age of about 25!

It seems there are more descriptions of how the girl should or does look
than the boys.

Interesting they call themselves boys and girls even in their 20s and 30s.
40 seems to be the point where they become men -- though no one mentions
being or wanting a woman! (Though I'm still not totally comfortable with the
term woman for myself since it seems to come with the burden of being mature
and responsible ;-)

And the mentions of the communities (perhaps?) they're from: Keralite, Goan,
Marthomite, Nair, Ezhava. What significance is that? Are the cultures that
different in the various areas? Or something else?

And what is a Keralite Christian (Jacobite)?

Joyce

Dan Vilter

On 4/17/02 7:48 AM, "Dawn Falbe" <dawn@...> wrote:

>
> My question is why? Why does a wife have to
> passify her husband's fears?

Because she loves him and would want him to do the same for her?

-Dan Vilter

Kate Green

>
> Interesting they call themselves boys and girls even in their 20s and 30s.
> 40 seems to be the point where they become men -- though no one mentions
> being or wanting a woman!

It seems to be that you stay boy and girl until you get married. I know my
Arab students say they are girls and not ladies or women because they
aren't married.

>
> And the mentions of the communities (perhaps?) they're from: Keralite, Goan,
> Marthomite, Nair, Ezhava. What significance is that? Are the cultures that
> different in the various areas? Or something else?

Different culture, different language and also there is the whole caste
thing. Most people don't like to marry outside their group as there is a
lot of stigma and negativity towards "mixed" couples.

>
> And what is a Keralite Christian (Jacobite)?

A Christian person from Keralite I think.

kate

>
> Joyce
>
>
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